Sure. The reason I haven't posted about that is that I have a very close friend and confidant who sometimes reads here. We live a good distance apart, and mostly communicate via email. I wanted to share this information with her in person and haven't been able to do so yet. I wanted to tell her myself, face to face, not have her read about it here. Now I'll be forced to tell her via email. Not a huge deal, but I'm not happy about it.

Yes, you got your facts wrong. You had a vague recollection of "something"... and without checking... you accused me of the worst case senario. That's not an "oops, I got my facts wrong". It's negligent.

Furthermore... renewed contact with an OP is the OPPOSITE of a voluntary confession of a 10-yr-old ONS.

Renewed contact is 10 steps backward. Fessing up to a past misdeed is a significant step forward -- not at all a sign of "wayward thinking"... but a sign of further recovery.

I also believe that “feeling compassion for a person but not the disease” doesn’t make literal sense. But I felt like I understood what SmartCookie was trying to say. Melody Lane’s objection to feeling compassion for an addict struck me. What is wrong with feeling compassion for an addict, as long as I don’t react to that compassion in a way that enables the addiction?

So then I started thinking that maybe we are working under different understandings of what “compassion” is. So I looked in my American Heritage Dictionary to find that compassion is


Huh. In mind head, I define compassion simply with the first part of that: the deep feeling of sharing the suffering of another. I don’t really assume with that any inclination to give aid or support or to show mercy. But if Melody Lane understands compassion to include both halves of that definition, I understand her response much better.

So I don’t know how to express my attitude toward the addict. I do not want to enable the addict in any way. But I do at times perceive an underlying pain that led the person to addiction. I don’t consider that pain an excuse or justification. But I don’t want to lose sight of it, either. I guess to me it’s important to acknowledge a person’s essential humanity. Or, I don’t know. That sounded so flaky. I don’t know how to say what I mean.

Curious,

I think you express yourself much better than you give yourself credit for. Relax.

I don't know a lot about the best way to deal with addicts... except that some of it may be counterintuitive... and that's why 12 step programs such as Al-Anon are so important to help people learn the best techniques. (I've been trying to check-out an Al-anon meeting in my area for about a month now, but my work/mom schedule keeps getting in the way).

I'm guessing the reason the definition includes that last half is b/c true compassion requires at least an inclination to take action on the feeling. As others have pointed out, compassionate action doesn't mean coddling. Maybe it might be better defined as doing whatever's "best" for the person, even if they don't like it at the time.

Like.. insisting my kids eat their vegetables at dinnertime, rather than letting them make a meal for themselves out of their Easter baskets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> OTOH, I don't stand over them with a baseball bat and bash their knuckles if they refuse to eat their veggies, either.

--SC

Exactly. It is the latter definition of "compassion" that is effective for an addict. Real, effective support has nothing to do with saying some nice words or showing some misplaced sympathy, but in helping them do the things necessary to stay sober, drive them to meetings, sponsor them, teach them how to interview for jobs, kick their butt when they need it, etc. That is the SENSE of compassion that I mean.

And I suppose you could FEEL some compassion [FEELINGS] for an addict. I can't imagine why, but it is certainly not harmful unless you use those feelings to ENABLE them.


They are in horrible self induced PAIN like you could not imagine. Most often an addict uses drugs because they choose not to face life. It is their escape. It was so much easier for me to drink myself into oblivion than face life every day like the rest of mankind. I was always looking for an easier, softer way to escape life.

Smartcookie, this really is a wildly 'romantic' claim. It simply isn't true, in most cases.

One of the things that this very forum has taught me, is that a very large proportion of WSs are in no pain at all before making the decision to cheat.

What they ARE in, often, is a state of boredom, or frustration, or some other kind of discomfort that they have never acquired the tools to deal with competently. You wouldn't call it 'pain', unless you were really fathoms deep in self-pity or desperately hoping to play on the synpathies of a betrayed spouse.

In the list of 'Things I Can Do To Feel Good About Myself ', things like gratification, distraction and seeking admiration come way near the top, and 'holding onto principles' is low, low down...possibly not there at all.

And there are many WSs who cheat simply because they can, because it's a break from the strains of adult responsibility, because they're immature enough to think it will affect nobody as long as 'nobody' finds out.

People often do self-destructive things because those things are fun, up-front. That's why we wake up with hangovers...we thought we might get away with it, in the heat of the party.

The people who are genuinely, suicidely miserable, and who self-detruct via an affair seem like a small minority to me. How many WSs have you read about here, who have attempted suicide? And how many BSs? It's about 0:20, by my reckoning. The BS is in real pain. It's the difference between a gunshot wound to the stomach, and a bad cramp.

TA

I don't refer to that act as a sign of your wayward thinking. I applaud you for coming clean and agree it is a sign of recovery.

However, what I see as a wayward mindset are your posts on this forum, which are almost always targeted towards defending a wayward mentality, ie: trying to stop others from calling a CAD a CAD, [misdefining it as "bashing"] attempting to convince BS's to interpret fog as reality, etc. Rather than helping others achieve RECOVERY, you seem to be very focused on nitpicking Marriage Builders and those who make things uncomfortable for waywards. That is a sign of a wayward mentality.

TA,

Have you ever considered the possibility that the reason there aren't more WS here describing the pain they were in before the affair... is that even the most thoughtful posters such as youself are so quick to dismiss it as a "cramp". That does indeed seem to be the prevailing attitudehere. And there are other safe places for people to express themselves besides MB.

I'll readily concede that I shouldn't have made that statement as an "absolute". It's certainly not. And I am more than willing to acknowledge that there are also cheaters who fit more into the category you describe. But who's to say which groups represents the majority?

Why must every post about the pain or struggles of a WS be countered with... "that's NOTHING compared to what the BS goes through." Fine. But one could argue that what a BS goes through doesn't compare to what a 12-year-old sex slave endures. So, since there are actually worse fates in the world, do we tell BSs to just get over themselves? Of course not. It's not a contest. Pain is pain.

I don't even know why I'm continuing this discussion. We aren't going to change each others' minds, are we?

--SC

SC, this place is not "safe" for bullcrap, that is certain. Pandering inappropriate pity for WS' is exactly that. Let me get out my violin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Have you considered that many WS', when they become HONEST, admit their affair was nothing more than self will run riot?

Encouraging pity parties for a WS accomplishes nothing, much less recovery. Feeling pity for themselves is nothing more than a diversion from taking a good look at what personal shortcomings led to such a heinious act. It is an impediment to recovery. If you take a look at the TRULY RECOVERED WS's around here, you don't see them engaging in pity parties about their poor lot in life. Lets please stop with the pity pandering.

Oh yes you did. You said:


SC

SC, I was referring to your CONFESSION in my first quote. That act is not a sign of wayward thinking. Concealing an affair for 10 years IS.

Mel,
OMG! If anyone here is running for office, you really ought to beg Mel to be your campaign manager. 'cause she's one heluva spin doctor!!
--SC

Good night all.

huh? I thought that was very clear, I guess not.

weaver, thanks honey. You are alright for a silly yankee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

stoopid error

wrong person !!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Pep, I think you may be mixing me up with another TA...I'm very much a BS, never been on the wayward side!

SC... you really are just a bit full of yourself aren't you. Time to remove your head from your nether regions dear. It sounds like you are a person that has had her head stuck in academia for too long... you have good theory but seem to lack a lot in common sense.

and I think with some of your replies to ML that you should consider changing your name here to cookieduh.

But Cookie - why is it you didn't confess your ONS of 10 years before last year? Really that is such a wayward mindset continuing for TEN years. What other surprises have you got for your poor BH?

I think actually most if not ALL BS's vent to/at WS about OP and the WS does defend them at least initially. I don't know if it causes any harm or drives them closer together. I think it's such a MINOR issue I don't even know why it's under discussion.

Certainly it made no difference to our recovery.

sc,

Why did you write this?

“Silly me. At first I actually thought you were asking me questions b/c you wanted to hear the answers. Sometimes I can be so naive.”

No need to be passive aggressive. Say what you mean. I can take it. I am not, never have been nor ever will be a WS.

I do want answers, sc. As I wrote, carrot and stick – each has its turn in the method. But I am not always clear in the heat of the moment which is up next. Well, I should say, was not sure. I no longer need either. I am detached.

What I read in a great many of these posts is even when the BS is hurting so bad, they still have to stuff it and take it on the chin no matter what WS says or does. Otherwise what the WS thinks, says or does is BS driven somehow.

Some seem to have the opinion BS should not even vent here, to anonymous strangers, lest they be the cause of more WSeddness in the world.

In my sitch FWW did not want to hear bad things about OM. Yet he was the walking definition of a cad and a scoundrel. (Candrel? Scad? ) Multiple A’s even during the VLTA with FWW. Current W one of his OW’s on his first wife. Left his W and children high and dry. Affairs when both W’s were pregnant. Entitlement is his middle name. Still acting the same too.

Yet I held off bashing him in front of FWW for kinda, sorta of the reason you mention. It would make her defensive. So I crept up on it, actually. As the fog lifted I pushed on her perception of OM. Harder and harder. With facts and invective both. Eventually she started to see his true colors. And yes, it made her feel worse. Good! By then it was final exam time. I had papers ready to file.

My point is I don’t think she ever would have seen him for what he is unless I pointed it out to her. And pointed it out in vivid color. Her perceptions would have faded off into a la la land of memories and what might have beens with a star-crossed soulmate love story that was never given a chance by a cruel world.

Honestly, I did not want to stay, and would not have stayed, married to her if she kept any fond memories of dirtbag OM whatsoever. So I went after what I wanted in the best way I knew how. This included bashing OM because he deserved bashing. Period.

And it felt good too. So what? Do I just take her feelings for a brute like him while laying down?

sc, when does the BS get to have his say? His true say?

It sounds like never from some of this. Or only at some mutually agreed upon point (yeah, like WS will ever agree), and even then it still has to be a politically correct say. Screw that. Yes, timing is everything. But the time better get here for the BS sooner than later. Otherwise the WS is not worth recovery in the first place.


Oh, what about this question: “It occurs to me exposure to OP's friends and family also falls entirely within your recommendation to not to upset WS by appearing mean to OP.”

This is a serous question too. Exposure is treating the OP pretty darn bad. Makes the WS want to defend OP. (It sure did with my FWW.) I wonder if by your logic BS should not expose either.

Alph - SC has problems with exposure, bad words about OP, radical honesty etc. She is very much an enabler of WS's and no wonder she still has the WS mindset.