Aphelion,

Well, first let me claify that I did NOT mean to suggest that anyone should "be nice" about OPs. Or "praise" WS or OPs. Was I really that unclear?

The absense of bashing doesn't mean you have to go to the other extreme.

I also never mentioned anything about how BS's should or shouldn't communicate with their own WS's.

I'm not sure how to re-word what I actually WAS talking about in order to make it more clear.

I'm sorry.

Is it technically even possible for me to have empathy for a BS? Since I've never walked in those shoes? I do know what it's like to be betrayed by someone who's supposed to love and protect me. I know how deeply that hurts. But it was a family member (actually two of them) not a spouse, so it's probably a little different.

I DO think I have shown SYMPATHY to a number of BS's. HopeThisWorks comes immediately to mind, since he just posted on this thread. Maybe he'd disagree and would care to set me straight if he's still reading. (??)

I guess I feel empathy for WSs, b/c I know that it hurts to be on this side of the equation too.

I'll have to go back and re-read you post on that counselor... but my first thought is... I don't understand his objection to that particular word.

I'll check back tomorrow... gotta go for now...

--SC

Oh, and Mrs. W... I can speak for myself, thank you very little.

SC it's clear by your signature here that you weren't doing that...Truthfully anyway...That makes no sense to me btw...Why be honest (I presume) in one place and not another? I believe that people should know what perspective the information that they are reading is coming from, don't you?

So, Aph questioned why you post the way you do, I believed that I had the answer to that question and so I gave it...*shrug*...Your welcome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Bull crappy... on that side of the equation are ones that hurt others... and frankly any and every amount of pain they feel as a result of their actions is just too friggin bad. And you might want to work on your empathy for the victims of the WS.... since they are the ONLY victims in this equation.... the WS CHOOSES their path... the BS is a unwilling rider on the smut bus.

Gotta admit up front that I have not read all the comments. This thread really took off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I will respond to the original post from SC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: It is never good to bash. Present a correct description and statement at a time when the recipient can handle the info is appropriate. What we don't want t/d is water down the OP's true status.

The difficulty I have experienced and seen is that the BS needs to know and vent that the OP is a bad person. In reality both WS and OPs are bad people. Plain simple fact.

What saddens me is to read that a WS or even OP is a good parent or good person. They USED TO BE a good parent or person but as a WS or OP they are NOT. Not while they retain that title. Another fact. Just because the person (WS/OP) does some good things does not earn them the same title as a faithful spouse and good parent. JMHO of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Why NOT to bash the OP? Because of the fog. The WS can't handle the fact that they have taken a step down by choosing the OP. Additionally most WS' are addicted and can't always control or stop their destructive course. This is does NOT mean we can excuse their behavior. By NO MEANS should this ever be an excuse. Still it s/b recognized. In fact this knowledge can be used as a tool to help the BS and eventually when the proper time arises, help the Xws. I have done this myself.

When a WS defends the OP, it hurts the BS and it is meant to. The BS' need to realize this and turn this hurtful Ws tactic around, then give the WS back their guilt. This requires the BS to have their mind and heart in sync. This is hard t/d but can be managed via tools like reverse babble. The objective is to be strong enough to hear those hurtful words, not react emotionally and turn it around and kick it back big time by often using the WS' own words against them. It works.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Orchid: In my case, I did 'bash' the OP. She just made it sooo easy. The trick is that I only used the words that correctly applied to her. Her own conduct allowed me to correctly apply most of the vile words in our language. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. On the flip side, since I had done a fair plan A and really was never one to cuss in the past, the OW tried very hard to paint me as bad as she was. I was coated in MB teflon and it slid right off.

I recall when the OP called me an F'n B. Hm.... I told her it was not possible for me t/b that for her and that she already was a B but I wasn't. LOL!!! Yea.... I learned to RB quickly. It left her speechless and this OW could babble for hours (verified by her XH, WS, the cell phone bill and the stacks of tapes she attempted to introduce as evidence in court). LOL!!!


Orchid: Initially, I agree. Eventually the BS ought t/b able to call the OP whatever they want. After all, the OP earned those names. Oh yea.... stick to what is correct. You will find that many an OP deserve t/b called a lot of bad things.

The point is if the OP stops being an OP, then the name calling will naturally drop off (in most cases). If the OP retains the title, well.... why not keep the descriptions accurate?

I am still waiting for an apology from PBR (OW). Since I don't have one, she still retains those titles. In fact, I have lately been thinking about exposing to her family and the A has been over for over 3 years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

I agree with this VERY much Orchid, and I don't feel one bit "bashed" by it...When I was a WS, I was NOT a good person or a good parent...In fact, my actions showed me to be a VERY selfish and destructive BAD person...That is NOT who I am today, however...Today my actions show me to be a very good person and parent and my boundaries with members of the opposite sex are iron clad...Thankfully there can be repentance and redemption...I am very grateful to have God's and Mr. W's forgiveness...Priceless gifts...


I agree with this too, however, Mr. W and I will never know the status of OM, nor do we feel the need to, as we are that serious about NC...What we do know is that OM was NOT a good person during the affair...Who he is today is of no relevance or consequence to us...Ah, indifference is a beautiful thing!

Mrs. W

Mrs W.,

You are the perfect example of how it is possible to lose that WS title. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The effort you have put forth and the cooperation along with forgiveness you have received from your H is a good example for us.

While that experience will never be forgotten, still moving forward as a couple for the M is something that can be attained in true recovery.

I am not saying the BS totally forgets. But there comes a time when recovery is good that the A is not a show stopper in the M. It is crushed, pulverized and the family moves forward to build a better life.

Whether the Op stays as an OP or not is no longer important. Though I must admit that I would like to warn the rest of her community (like a scarlet letter tattooed to her forehead). LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Well, in my case, letting at least 1 of her neighbors and the local police department know was enough. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All the best,
L.

AWWWW Orchid...Why thank ya ma'am...What a wonderful thing to say! That's so very nice to hear and I truly appreciate it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

My sincere pleasure, Mrs. W. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I truly mean it from the bottom of my heart.

With all the pain we see out here on this board, knowing you and Mr. W along with other recovered spouses gives light and life to those who feel like all has been pulled out from under them.

When I 1st came here there were a couple of recovered spouses posting here and they helped me see the vast difference between suspected recovery and true recovery.

Trueheart was one of them. I am forever indebitted to him.

Aloha,
L.

Mel, I understand what you're saying and although this is usually the case, I don't completely agree. Unfortunately I have seen some truly remorseful FWS’s who lefts these boards after attempts from others to make them feel more bad, unworthy and shameful about themselves than they already were at the time. And those FWS’s I’m referring to was not in a state of delusion or tried to rationalize their bad behavior. They simply didn’t feel safe to post here anymore and be honest & open about their feelings and internal struggles during withdrawal and early recovery.

One specific FWW I still clearly remember who was treated this way was Broken Vessel. She was a sincere and good person who strayed. She was in intense withdrawal from the OM and in a deep depression because of that. At the time she was very fragile, she was in a lot of pain and her emotions were still very raw. She missed the OP but at the same time experienced much guilt because of that... She shared her feelings about it openly and honestly on this board but eventually she stopped posting, unregistered and even deleted most of her post from this board.

I know that just because someone leaves the board, doesn't necessarily mean that the board has "drove them away", but IMO that was definitely the case with BV and RAP. RAP (another truly remorseful FWW) left the board as a direct result of BV’spoor treatment on this board… Like BV, RAP was also in withdrawal, very fragile and early in recovery and she didn’t feel safe posting here anymore after what happened to BV. I think if I was in the same stage of withdrawal and recovery at the time than them, I also wouldn't post here anymore at the time... Luckily, while I was in early recovery & intense withdrawal, I mostly lurked here and rarely post. I felt too vulnerable at the time to post my feelings openly and honestly and after what happened to BV back then, I'm glad I never did... I wanted to do it (because I needed a place to vent and get my feelings out about my internal struggles) but I was afraid to do it exactly for what happened to BV.

Also, the thing that really has gotten me the most about BV’s treatment on the board back then, was how cruelly she was mocked because of her postings to JL.

I know all of this happened a long time ago, but I still clearly remember it and gets sad when I think back about it (for some reason I deeply related & emphasized with BV) and I wanted to use it this post it as an example to explain to you why I don’t completely agree with your statement that only delusional WS’S who rationalize their bad behavior gets 2x4’s.

Suzet,

The WS' who were raging WS' when they came to MB rarely stayed. The longest one I recall is SNL. He was a full blown WS who had much interaction with many on MB due to his love to banter. Still in the end, he was and is an unrepentant WS.

As for BV, RAP or others.....there is and is a big difference between them vs those like SNL and yet another group of Xws who are truly recovered spouses.

Seems those like BV are in that rut and stay there. This frustrates others who may have been trying to help but if the person keeps throwing the life preserver back, after a while there is no more energy to expend on someone who is bent on straddling the fence.

On the flip side there were those who initially posted as WS' then Xws then as recovered spouses. These have met the challenge in their personal and MB lives (as posters) and gained the respect of many.

While it is sad to see a poster leave without being able to really benefit from the support and help here, it is their choice. One thing I learned is you can't help if a person does not want t/b helped.

I spent many a sleepless night worrying about a BS, Xws, etc. who would post here all the while dealing with the A problems in my own household. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> It broke my heart to see a BS turn WS, then leave or an Xws turn back to a WS and leave while trying to blame others for their choice. Yet I had to learn that I did the best I could to help and sometimes it is better to let go. I believe in time those will learn but they must do so at a pace they can handle. There is no guarantee and it is not their right that we all be here when they come to their senses. So if and when a WS or Xws comes back to post, they may feel they are starting all over again, because in reality, they are.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid, BV and RAP were still new and early in recovery & withdrawal while they were posting here. So the group of XWS who are truly recovered didn’t apply to them at the time. Full recovery takes a lot of time (as you know).

Not necessarily. Nobody knows if BV has ever truly recover or not because she stopped posting here after the cruel treatment she received on this board.


If BV had already been in recovery and withdrawal for a long time while she was in that rut or a long time poster, I could understand the frustration, but this was not the case. Most FWS’s usually experience this “rut” somewhere during withdrawal and struggle to get out of it, especially if withdrawal is intense and take a long time (I know because I’ve been there myself). And I can tell you, as a FWW who had been in this rut myself (it took me 18 moths to get through withdrawal), that I had been extremely impatient and frustrated with myself. And this “rut” I struggled with added to my feelings of guilt, shame etc. and I’m sure the same was the case with BV. I could read and sense the frustration with herself in her posts. In my way I tried to help her.

Anyway, the people on the board who have gotten impatient with her and felt they were getting tired of “wasting energy” on her, could have simply stop posting to her instead of the treatment she received (which obviously added to her feelings of frustration, guilt, shame, unworthiness, failure etc).

I’ve never got the impression that BV didn’t want to be helped. But again, if some posters felt this way, they could have simply ignored her/stop posting to her instead of acting destructive and hurtfull.

Suzet,

I appreciate your response and POV.

You are right that we will never know about BV. What we do know is recovery takes effort and yours has attested to this fact.

Whether a person who was a WS chooses to take that recovery path or leave the M, is a personal choice.

Can a person be scared off of MB? Yes. But if recovery is truly a life saving effort, it w/b worth the effort to see it as a challenge on how much it takes to have recovery.

I am not saying this because I want to see the WS suffer. No. Rather it does take effort and more often than not, the Xws wants the BS and family to sweep it all under the rug and gets angry when they don't oblige.

To those types of XWs', I think it's best NOT to help them until they are ready to accept proper help. In some cases, it is giving them the time to heal, in other cases it requires a reality check and in still others it requires some major shaking up. The world of the WS should NOT be tolered. Withdrawal or not, the WS needs to realize that their choices is what led to the withdrawal. It is a difficult road to travel but it will make one appreciate their family more if they have to work hard for what was previously taken for granted.

We know Rap is back posting. This is a good sign. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BV, we don't know. Not that we need to but because we don't know we can't really say what her current recovery status.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,

I appreciate response and POV too.

Yes, I saw that and I’m glad about it too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Orchid, I just want to say that – as far as I can recall – I have never seen you posting in a cruel, hurtful or disrespectful way towards anyone on these boards and I truly admire that about you and think you are a great example! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately I can’t say the same thing about myself since there has been times in the past where I’ve lost my anger on these boards towards some posters and said unkind things in the process which I afterwards regretted… But so each one of us have our shortcomings, but as long as one are a “willing spirit” to try and improve there’s much hope!

Suzet, if I left every time someone made me "feel bad" I would have been gone the first month when Lexxy, a WS, read me the riot act. If you left everytime a poster made you "feel bad" you would have been gone years ago.

There is no "feel good" entitlement for WS'. BS's feel damn bad, too, and they are the victims. Where is their ENTITLEMENT? They wanted to feel safe in their own marriage and didn't even get that. A person who leaves everytime they "feel bad" has other issues, first of which is an unrealistic expectation about a diverse forum with a lot of people. That is the nature of a forum.

We have no control over how a person "feels" or what makes them "feel" safe; no one here has that kind of power. If a person runs every time they feel bad, they probably have weak characters that often run from adversity.

People will leave for various reasons. That is their choice and their problem. No one here has any control over that. Nor can we control how one person is going to react to various posters. If a person leaves, it is not the end of the world. They either get help somewhere else or just really don't care, which is usually the case. The ones who REALLY want help here, GET HELP.

I know of betrayed spouses who claim to have been RUN OFF by waywards from this board. [JohnnyMac was attacked by smartcookie and left] But he made the choice to leave and is responsible for that outcome.

Nor would I think it would be none too smart to come on an adultery forum and pine away about your affair [missing it and whatnot] in a room full of victims. That is stupidity personified and just asking to have your [censored] handed to you. How utterly thoughtless and cruel. I'm sorry, but anyone who believes they should feel "safe" doing that deserves what they get. Good grief...

I guess I don't understand why we keep having this conversation because it is so futile. We can't control who leaves or stays [only the mods can do that], we cannot control the "feelings" of others, and we cannot fashion the posts of others to suit our own personal standards. We have no POST POLICE board that screens posts. [if we ever do, I get to be the sheriff since I am from Texas! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We can only control our OWN posts, our OWN SELVES. We can never control others.

I actually agree with you MEDC... to a point.

Yes, we cause some of our own pain through our choices and actions. And yes, we cause a ton of pain to others. And for that we must take responsibility.

But...

I happen to believe that most (if not all) destructive human behavior ORIGINATES from pain.

A lot of alcoholics and drug addicts start abusing substances in order to dull their emotional pain. As they get further and further entrenched in their addiction, they often take innocent victims down with them, but their own pain intensifies too. I believe they are worthy of sympathy/empathy/compassion. Don't you? In fact, it's my understanding that compassion is a central part of the teachings in Al-anon and other support groups for the family members of alcoholics and addicts. No?

Likewise...

In general... happy, emotionally healthy people don't cheat on their husbands and wives. We are usually in some sort of emotional pain BEFORE we jump off that cliff. Sometimes intense emotional pain.

Having compassion for a BS is easy. A no-brainer. Having comapssion for an adict, an abuser, or a cheater is harder. Maybe it requires a first-hand understanding of what it's like to be in that position. Or maybe just a higher level of wisdom. Either way... just because you demonstrate compassion for a WS... that does NOT mean you have NO compassion for a BS. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I believe almost all human beings are deserving of sympathy and compassion... unless they are truely evil to the core... and I seriously doubt you'd find such a person posting here.

--SC

NOT AT ALL. The worst thing you do to an alcoholic is give him sympathy. Sympathy for what? Perhaps compassion if you consider TOUGH LOVE to be "compassion". Alcoholics/addicts recover through TOUGH LOVE measures, not doublespeak and misplaced sympathy. One of the most "compassionate" things that happen to some alcoholics is spending time in JAIL.

People who show "sympathy" to addicts are just viewed as targets for exploitation, aka FOOLS, by the addict. We WANT pity and sympathy because it helps keep us SICK. Sympathy only ENABLES the addict.


And sometimes people are just immoral, selfish and self centered and care nothing for their victims. You continue to try to portray waywards as "victims", sc. They ARE NOT.

I heard this on the radio the other day:

"misplaced compassion gives power to EVIL."

I think that is very, very true.

This will get the addict nothing but dead, SC.

If you love someone you do not enable their destructive behavior.

If my daughter started doing drugs she would be out of my house in a second flat. I LOVE her that much. If she became a liar and a cheat as an adult she would be out of my life as well. I LOVE her that much to not have sympathy/compassion/empathy for behavior that would destroy her.

SC, I love all people and know the devastation of hurting others. I will not have compassion for people who are cheating/lieing. When they stop, yes. Absolutely.

If one were to agree with that****edit******and logic, then the WS also has no control over how the BS feels when the WS is in the midst of their affair. That is NOT reality. ****edit**********


*******edit***************

Yes, and I know a chronic, acute alcoholic youner than me who wanted to go to jail. Got in enough trouble to go to jail for a year infact and this literally saved his life.

The most compassionate thing you can do for a spouse sometimes is tough love, while you still have enough love left for them to take them back after they bottom out.

Bottoming out SC, is often the only way to work through emotional pain and become healthy and whole.