Well, it's important not to take yourself so seriously that you cannot admit a time in your life when you were wrong. KWIM?

I never used to cuss at all, I don't know why I started lately. Should probably stop.

Weaver I go through phases of bad language....but my DD11 is the language police in our house, so that helps!

I'm not completely caught up on this thread but I wanted to answer your questions, Pep, in case I didn't get another chance today.




No. Again, OM dumped me. I was still "into it" at that point. Too addicted to feel pain/shame/humiliation. That came later.(Just being honest here).


???


Yes. Maybe, in a way, when OM said 'get lost' that was rock bottom for me. (???) I had been miserable... followed by a soaring high... followed by a big crash.


Ummm. I could not see the value of the man I was married to. True. The reasons behind that are complex.

Correct. Once I allowed myself to start thinking about getting out... I was no longer going to tollerate certain things.

I wasn't "in love" with OM. Not even when you put it in quotes. I didn't divorce my H before the affair b/c I was depressed... and wishy-washy.... and trying to be a good girl and make everyone happy. (Major oversimplification here... but I don't have time for more at the moment)

No. But I believe the FWS is. Are you saying that a FWS must forever put up with whatever the BS dishes out?

IMO, the betrayed spouse is JUSTIFIED in thinking AND saying anything they want about the OP. I just think it might be counterproductive if they do it TO the WS.

Pep, I was going to put a caveat in that part of my post -- that I realize Plan A is really only supposed to be used to help break up the affair and lure the WS back into the marriage. And that it's only supposed to be short term. But, truly, there were so many problems in my marriage pre-A... and my H was engaged in such hurtful and damaging behavior... that if those things had not been addressed right away, I don't believe I would have stayed. I don't know a lot about the different "types" of affairs... but I do think mine had at least some of the characteristics of an exit affair. I wanted out.

I have seen other women come here. NOT WS, but just regular, faithful gals... who's H were doing the kinds of things mine was... and I have seen them advised to set some firm boundaries around these behaviors, and get out if the boundaries are crossed.


--SC

I guess one could say that you are still a work in progress SC

is that fair?

you already know the answer is "no", so why did you ask this?

SC, is this the MB concept that you are talking about???

HERE

the 3 states of mind in marriage

maybe we should begin a new thread where this is the focus??????

Owl,


That's exactly what I mean. I understand that the one-sided aspect of plan-A must come to an end in a reasonably short period of time. But the rest, IMO -- the meeting of EN's, self-improvement, and keeping strong boundaries -- needs to continue for the best shot at recovery.

I'm glad you brought up the point about not being a doormat. That's just as important as all the other parts of it.


Not long. I guess our chronology was a little different than in the "typical" case:

--Mid Sept., A ended.
--Early Oct., I told H I didn't love him, was very unhappy, and thought I wanted out. After getting over the initial shock and disbelief, my H immediatly took responsibility for his "stuff" and started making changes (which is what I mean by his plan-A) He asked me for a second chance. I told him I didn't hold out much hope, but yes, I would try. From that point on, I started trying to meet his EN's (even though I was still deep in withdrawl and really didn't want to).
--Oct 31st, D-day.

So... I guess you could say that he never really had to do a completely one-sided plan-A. Though I'm sure my attempts to meet his needs were marginal at best while I worked my way through withdrawl... I wasn't spitting vehnom either. Ya know?

Did that make any sense?

-SC

Pep,

Yes. More than fair. I suspect I will be a work in progress until the day I die. No?

I think you lost me here, Pep.

damn, I thought I'd just found you too ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ummmmmm

what you said about how you felt when you had one foot in and one foot out of your M .... after OM dumped you & your H was doing "Plan A" .... I think the MB concept you are actually refering to is not Plan A at all .... but how one partner (your H) can lead the withdrawn partner (you) back into intimacy of marriage

but, as always, I could be wrong

have you studied the 3 states of mind in a marriage???

Pep:

One question:

Are you the same type of W that you were before your H's A, as you are now?

And I'm not talking about shock, hurt, anger and pain.

I'm talking about how you interact with your H?

Cuz Flamingo is much different than she was before the A.

Not 100% different, just 10%. But what a difference that 10% makes.

Work in progress?

Aren't we ALL?

heck !!! Lousy G....

this went down in 1995 ... without the internet no less <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I've change for various reasons .... one of which ~~~> T I M E

The first 2 years are the hard ones ... the rest are gravy by comparison

this is what I mean by "work in progress" ... I was reminded of the timeline SC is dealing with after I looked at her dates on her bio

I HATED our M the first 2 years of recovery ... I had one foot out most of the time

one of the big changes in our M is my H is no longer a drunk ... and I am no longer a drunk's wife ... a dynamic change, yanno?

who knew we could be so healed?

Pep:

Are you different Post A as a W than you were Pre-A?

I understand about the drinking, but that is a change that Mr. Pep made. (among others!)

and I'm not talking TIME.

Too Easy.

I'm talking change. In your actions/interactions and dealing's with Mr. Pep early and in the middle of your M and how you are after the A in those interactions.

Does SC have a path to travel. Yes.

Did she state that her H needed to get fixed?

Yes.

Does that make her fogbound?

No.

My M wasn't perfect, AND I made a really bad choice on how to fix it, but the way Flamingo interacts with me now is a WHOLE lot different than before the A.

You sort of took SC to task for this, to paraphrase: "Had her H not changed, she was heading for divorce." (Not that she hasn't been beaten up enough on this thread. I appreciate that she still comes around)

So, to answer my own question, YOU are not the same. You do not interact the same. Just like I do not. And Flamingo, and SC.

Cause if we did, none of our M's would have survived.

Are they sweetness and light? No. Will you always harbor some resentment against your H because of what he did? Yes, Flamingo will. Time heals, but the scar will always be there.

But this M that has come from that wreckage, is a whole lot better than the one going into the wreck.

MB is about building "Affair-Proof" Marriages.

Yours is. Mine is. Maybe SC's is. SC?

LG

well ... of course things have changed... for one thing ...
back in 1996 I hated his guts... while I was strangely attracted to him at the same time .... completely off my rocker I was ... more than a screw loose, more than one card short of a full deck ... off my bleedin' rocker

I could not have plan A'd him those first 3 months .... I did not enjoy sharing oxygen with him

I was blowing napalm out of my nose back then ... I was decidedly a WORSE wife after D day ... LOL

I am not going to list my changes Lousy G ... sufice it to say ... our marriage has a completely changed dynamic than pre-A


LOL, I stand corrected for a remark I never spoke ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and for a thought I never thunk


no doubt


I take issue NOT with her feelings (typical & expected & no worse than mine post D-day)
but with her misunderstanding of what Plan A is all about ....

I pointed out to her ( at least I thought I did ) that what she is actually describing in her Post D-day life is not Plan A at all ... but one of Harley's other concepts.



yeah... and? (I am not being obtuse, I really am missing what da'hail you are leading up to) You are NOT preaching to the choir but to the choir master <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


or, would have survived in a very ugly way ... I've seen things here that make me want to scream ~~~> DIVORCE ALREADY .... but SC is not one of them


my harbor is clean by the way
it got pretty clean about 4-5 years into it

no resentment in my closet ... just gratitude


G ... I am waaaaay ahead of you


I would never presume to know something so intimate about your marriage ... only mine

Pep:

Guess I just took something else away from your post to her.

May have been wrong in my assumptions.

As for the fogbound statement: I did not mean to imply that was what you said, just the sense I got.

Harbor resentment?

Cleaned it up? Cool. Something I wondered about. Not in your case, per se, (although I think that's great!) I was thinking about in Flamingo's case. I guess I just have to wait and see...

I understand (even at my tender # of posts) about the "DIVORCE ALREADY" part.....


About the Affair-proof....

None are totally immune. I was going a little farther with that thought, but I erased some of it.

I was going to talk about boundaries and what I have learned around here. That those boundaries that were lowered in me had been raised and even acknowledged in me for the first time. But, I wasn't wanting to go off on a tangent....

LOL

NOW, I experienced the exact same thing. When I first came here years ago people told me that OM was a “predator” etc. My BH believed (to use Pep's words) that the OM was this bad, evil person who caste some sort of a spell on his "sweet & innocent" wife as an deliberate attempt to try and lure her into a full-blown A. I wanted to believe that and viewed him as a “predator” too for some time because I could then portrayed myself as a victim and put all the blame on the OM etc. For some time it served me well to blame, bash and thinking harshly of the OM and to focus feelings of “hate” on him in an attempt get rid of the residual feelings I had for him. But…I soon found out that this way of thinking was not a long term solution for me and in the end I had to come to terms with myself and became REAL about everything. I realized that I was no victim and could not blame anyone else than myself…and that the OM was no evil “predator”, but (just like me) a normal person with human failings; flaws and weaknesses (someone with good and bad qualities) who’ve made some very bad choices & mistakes.

Let me elaborate on why I’ve said the above:

My core believe (for various reasons – religiously and otherwise) is that each and every person on this earth (no matter if it’s a priest or person who commit the biggest and most evil crime) have good and bad/evil inside of them. Whether good or bad will “gain victory” inside a person, depends on which one they are going to “feed” and allow to “grow” with thoughts, actions, choices etc. But IMO, even if a person allows the evil/bad side to grow and control/take over, the hidden good side within them (as creatures of God) is still there deep underneath the surface and that’s why every person IMO (no matter what sins/crimes they’ve committed) will always have the potential to make a turnaround from evil/sinful ways. I believe this is part of the reason God instructs us in His Word to “hate the sin but love the sinner” and warn us against casting stones… Every person are worthy in His eyes and have potential… And the same applies to people who’ve committed adultery and has not yet turned away from their wayward ways.

Pep,


Okay, I see now. Yes, I had read all that stuff when I first came here... and I just refreshed my memory.

And what I think is...

My H did a hybrid of "Plan-A" and "Plan-I" (my shorthand for "leading back to Intimacy").

The plans share a lot of similarities, no? They're both one-sided, short-term ways to draw a spouse back into the marriage, and/or a more intimate state of marriage.

You're right that it wasn't Plan-A in the strictest sense of the term, b/c my affair was over. But the self-improvement part of plan-A (not really addressed in plan-I) was crucial. Also.. it now occurs to me that plan-A might be even more important/effective during withdrawl than during the affiar itself.

During the affair, I was "high". I can't say for sure what effect a plan-A might have had on me at that point.. but I have to wonder if it would have "measured up" to the high of the affair. KWIM? Whereas, after the affair... the kindness, caring, and loving attention of my H's plan-A/I (while it made me VERY uncomfortable at first) was at least a sharp contrast to the pain of withdrawl from the affair.

I'm afraid this is a dynamic that's going to have to change in my M, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Suzet,

That was very well said...and I believe the same about people, though admittedly it IS hard sometimes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes NOW, I know for us human beings it is very hard...if not impossible...but I believe that is what I should keep in mind and striving for in my interactions with other human beings nonetheless. One good thing I can say about my betrayel - it's the ONE thing that helped me to develop humbleness and the realization that I’m no better than anyone else. Before that I was on a moral high ground and I believed I was immune against infidelity.

[color:"red"]Suzet[/color], in all honesty, the OM who calls you and calls you after being told NOT TO is a predatory & opportunistic sort of guy... which is NOT to say you are all that "innocent" yourself .... I am saying that this sort of guy who will not take "NO" for an answer must be handled roughly and definitively. Leaving NO DOUBT in his mind that calling you will cause him trouble ...yanno?