I have a question on this subject regarding my personal situation. WH is having an affair with a married woman. She has obviously been playing a con game on both her own husband and my WH. Her own husband did not know anything about the affair until I exposed it although she had told WH that they were in the process of divorcing. She has been seeing WH secretly, telling her husband that she was going to some completely different place.

I know this since I have talked to OWH, we have compared their schedules and I have asked WH who did not deny anything. In the meanwhile her husband was at home with their children, I don't know how the affair has affected them but a guess is that they sense the tense atmosphere and suffer from it.

Anyway, it is apparent to me that OW is a cruel, selfish, lying, cheating b**** who doesn’t even care for her own children. That is something I can write here and tell my friends but I have not said it to WH.

When we have been talking about the affair and OW I have told him in a straight-forward way what OWH has told me, that OW had not told her husband about the affair, and when he found out how she tried to make him believe that the affair had ended. But WH "forgets" what I have told him and generally re-writes what has happened.

I have also tried to ask him questions like "Why do you think she stays with her husband while she is seeing you?" and he just says that he doesn’t know. The apparent answer to me is that she sitting on the fence and enjoys the best of both worlds (sorry about the phrasing but I could not come up with anything better). I want to ask him why he thinks OW approached him of all people in the first place, my interpretation is that it is quite safe for a married woman to have an affair with a married man and an affair was what she wanted.

What do you think, is that a good way to talk about OW? Also, I don't use her name, I call her "that person" when I have to mention her.

WH has always expressed disgust for infidelity and lies. He has been moving his moral borders during the affair but he says that the most important moral rule he is trying to keep is to not tell lies.

And that is ok with me. I often don't agree with how you attempt to help others and don't believe its effective or even clear headed. But, I do understand that none of us here knows what will be effective with a given person and that is the beauty of a diverse forum. It takes all of us.

And for what its worth...I don't like Mel's style of posting much either. I think she's harsh and critical and attacking.

I know that she thinks that I'm whimpy, whining, etc...

Neither of us is going to change, nor agree with how the other person posts.

I do think that the kinds of posts you are referring to chase off people that might have otherwise stayed, and probably resulted in marriages that weren't saved that could have been. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about it.

At the end of the day, I just hope that the ones that DO stay get the message that they need to hear...either from Mel or from me, I don't care which. The one good thing is that Mel and I DO agree in the MB principles, and when we both are telling the poster the same thing (in different ways, to be sure)...that sure should be telling someone that they need to listen.

/waves to Mel...no offense intended...again the good thing is you and I both know where we stand! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Call her "Mrs (her last name)" or "Joe's wife".

Makes a point.

Suzet, but those are not the ones who get a 2x4. The ones who get the 2x4's, both BS' and WS', are the ones who are actively operating in a state of DELUSION and try to RATIONALIZE bad behavior. The WS' who come here and express true remorse and do feel bad, rarely have it bad. Rather, they are supported and cheered on.

To try and keep this in some perspective, all this hair tearing, frothing at the mouth is over calling an OP a "CAD" to a WS who extolling the honor and virtue of this CAD. Said OP is not even here and is having an affair with his brothers wife.

Unfortunately, the fellow IS a CAD and its too bad there wasnt a similar uproar about BEING a CAD.

I got over myself and I am back, more or less. I have decided to pick my fights a bit better and more importantly, don't do what I say someone else is doing, period. I believe I sorta helped start this thread when something hit so close to home I didn't handle it very well.

I believe smartcookie is accurately presenting a valid case for method with no short cuts.


10S (will ALWAYS think of you that way, I loved the name) says:


Two people looking at the same elephant, each with a different reaction.

The point of that IS; EACH person in an affair is acting like a scummy person by definition, as we define it here on MB. No sugar coat there. And the reality is that the OPs wife or husband will think of OUR wife or husband as the scummy person. And nothing harmed by explaining that in THOSE words, no short cuts taken.

Mel is absolutely correct, you don't enable with sugar coats. Out of instinct (before MB) that is how I handled my wife and the OM. I didn't sugar coat anything. I explained consequences in clear, unmistakable language to both of them. In other words, here is what you have done, here is what you say you want to do, here are the natural and unavoidable consequences for both actions. That got me and my wife to a certain reality point and then I discovered MB and did some learning that helped us get the rest of the way. And the OM went away both because he was told to and because he could see consequences he didn't like and he believed the consequences.

But there is a point here that is an undercurrent to what everyone is saying:

It isn't enough to TELL someone WHAT they should do, you also have to EXPLAIN WHY; for what reason. And, sorry for this, we also have to explain what is in it for THEM if they are the WS. Now that one is as counter intuitive to the mindset of MB as anything I could ever say if I just left it at that. So I won't.

An alcoholic doesn't go to AA expecting to be told they are great people. They probably hit bottom and are looking for help. The last help you want to give them is to enable their excuses. An abused person doesn't go to a shelter because they like to be abused. They are looking for help.

And a WS doesn't come here looking for validation, they are looking for help. If they want validation, they can go to gloryb, it isn't hard to find. They are, yes, the equivalent of an abuser showing up at the shelter looking for help. I don't know how most shelters work, but I know about one and in that one, if an abuser showed up looking for help, they would get it, immediately.

The help they would then get would be a long discussion of consequences, anger management training and a road that includes apologies and none of it is sugar coated. But included in that process is not only WHAT they should do but WHY they should do it and HOW they should do it and what it means in a comparison between the consequences if they continue to be an abuser versus the consequences if they get religion and take another path in life. They might even spend a night or two meeting bubba in the local gray bar hotel so they can better understand consequences.

There is also a ton of training that goes on to help someone learn how not to ENABLE the abuser. I guess this is sorta like beating up on the BS or just helping them understand consequences, which is also something that goes on here, and rightfully so, as needed. Both sides learn what THEY get out of whatever, up close and personal. What they both learn is that they get a better life, however it turns out IF they take a different path than the one they are on.

So with that background, here is where I start peeling the onion. And I want to say this again. I made a mistake the other day by taking something personal. I was triggered at a fundamental level and lashed out. I knew (for me) I was right and I still think (for me) I was right, but I let it get to me instead of using reason and explaining WHY and HOW my mind set might be right for the person posting who needed help. I am trying to make up for that here.

The Harleys make a living in various ways, primary being that they advise people and even, gasp, direct people. In the process of directing people, something that not all counselors do, they explain WHY and HOW and WHAT the benefit is for the people they are talking to. If all you needed were Harley principles, you can find nearly all of them either here or in a couple of books. If all a person needed was WHAT to do, it is right here in black and white; written form backed up by the forum. Yet people still call the Harleys, they still go to IC and MC, they still post their questions here BECAUSE they don't know HOW and often, they don't understand WHY, either in terms of their PERSONAL benefit or the benefit to others and they certainly don't always understand CONSEQUENCES. In point of fact, during the fog, they see consequences we all know are almost always false and the need is for an explanation of consequences that are real.

In other words, clearly explained outcomes, the reality of which help them break through the fog of being a BS or WS. And I love Dr. Phil's great, short words of wisdom that gets people to think; "How's it working for ya." The Harley method has a beginning, middle and desired end. How the person got in the fix they are in, how they think when they are in the fix, what they need to do to change that thinking and how to get out of it the fix they are in to a desired end and WHY!

There is a great current thread running that explains the plus and minus of phone counseling. One of the best from that thread is that what the Harleys do is NOT counseling or therapy, it is DIRECTION. And in giving direction, they explain why and they detail HOW. Caveat: I have never had a session with either Jennifer or Steve. At the time, couldn't afford it. But I have seen enough posts from those who have to pick up on their tactics. As we could afford it, my wife and I have received both MC and IC from two licensed therapists, one somewhat helpful, the other a complete dud. We have also received PHONE counseling and direction from a friend who happens to be a licensed therapist, so he couldn't counsel us; yet he was the most helpful of all, even though he didn't do it except as a friend would do, if you get my drift. And he was helpful because he explained WHY we each did what we did and the consequences.

Here is a great quote from Mrs.W.


In other words, what Mrs.W was throwing away. And subtly, that WAS an education in affairs along with explaining the OP is indeed a cad as posted above. She started to see reality as it was and WHY seeing reality was of benefit to HER, personally. Given a peek at reality, MrsW was then more receptive to WHAT and HOW.

My point is that telling people WHAT to do isn't always going to work. In fact, it usually doesn't work unless in response to a specific question where background is understood by all. The reverse of that is ASKING people what to do without explaining all the circumstances and the clear outcome desired. That can lead to wild speculation and blind canyons as Gimble found out in his thread. He eventually got it out, but it took a while. I hope he tells us what he did that worked.

Now we get to my beliefs as applied to this situation.

I believe that it is not enough to tell someone WHAT to do. (whack). This is where I lost it. I relived in my mind being gutted like a fish a couple of years ago. And I knew that telling my wife WHAT to do THEN would have left me in a sorry state indeed. So I reacted emotionally. I remembered that I gave her choices and consequences. I remembered that method had worked, at least for me and my wife and kids. We would not be where we are today if all I had told her what to do. She was too deep in the fog to get it without all the rest I supplied.

I believe it is alright to ask someone to do something that is to THEIR benefit (even with a whack), if you also explain WHY they should do it, help them with HOW they should do it, and clearly state WHAT is in it for them. AND, explain the consequences if they DON'T do it and the consequences if they actually do it. In other words, a complete reality check as best can be determined. That takes a while. Sometimes we don't have a while. In that case, mouth shut as I should have done, is probably the best path.

In my opinion, and here is where I am going to upset a few folks, some, including me, have been here for some time and longevity has obscured our own past. When addressing someone, it is human nature to attempt to put ourselves into someone Else's shoes, or GET THEM TO WEAR OURS! How do you do that when what happened to you is long ago and far away or we relive it in an uncertain way? Some of us forget what it was like BEFORE we were steeped in Harley forum tradition and Harley teachings. We know WHAT someone should do, but we forget that person is clueless WHY AND HOW. So we attempt to tell people what to do without all the WHY and HOW that goes with it. And sometimes we beat on people in the hopes it will make them feel better about themselves. That old dog won't hunt either in most cases, in my opinion. It isn't New Years, but I just found my resolution for my posts in the future.

Harley's teaching and directed counseling is full of WHY someone does what they do, HOW they got in their fix and WHAT to do about it and specifically teaches WHAT is in it for THEM, the WS, the BS and the KIDS and all the rest.

There are not short cuts to the Harley process. And we certainly need the wisdom of those who have been here a long while and seen it all. But in my opinion, we don't need the mind set that the newbie should know more than they know or follow our direction just because. Explaining something is hard work. I failed to explain myself in that recent post that earned the ire of a long time poster here, Mel. I was wrong. And in my opinion, so was Mel because Mel failed to cover WHY and HOW in her advice to the person seeking help. I am sure Mel will disagree except the part where I was wrong. And all the discussion in the world won't change either of our minds. So I am going to drop it, but of course Mel can say whatever she want to says and without my rebuttal. That is her right, if not the course of action I would recommend.

The WISDOM of this thread is method. smartcookie has posted a valid method that was developed by the professionals. I believe that method has value here. I also believe that there is a place for blunt talk. Certainly Mel's point about AA is valid. But I don't believe in short cuts. I don't believe that a newbie has all the knowledge they need to follow direction without explanation, consequences, benefits, the why and how of a path that is rocky enough without rocks thrown at the newbie's head because the poster had expectations that were based on what THEY knew instead of the reality of what the newbie was likely to know.

In other words, no sugar coats, but also no short cuts. Leaving out why, how, consequences and how's your current mind set working for you is, in my opinion, a short cut; a trap that is easy to fall into. Plan A is both a carrot and a STICK. Just using the carrot or just using the stick doesn't work. No short cuts.

In Plank's words, I will now crawl back under my rock. But I will be listening to words of wisdom. I sure as heck don't think I know it all, otherwise I might just do it for a living, and I don't and won't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

PS: Mel, your last post was great as an example of a fully developed point of view. You explained yourself. I have no quibble with what you posted, nor do I have any quibble with what smartcookie posted either. Both of you posted your individual points of view and now the reader can decide. It was a lack of explanation where I went bonkers because it hit so close to home, a place where I don't ever want to see again or have anyone else see. In my opinion, you took a shortcut with your direction to the person who needed help and in my opinion, that was counter productive but I should have ignored our post and taken a different path. In other words, I thought at the time you meant well but were not doing well based on my own experience, if that makes sense.

Thanks Owl, I think we make a good tag team sometimes and I do appreciate your posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I do not believe we have the power to run off anyone who really wants help, though. If a WW is run off because we call a CAD a CAD, she left because she didn't want to face the truth, and for no other reason. A person who really wants help could not be run off by wild horses. She was looking for a forum that would tell her what she wanted to hear and feed her denial; and thankfully this is not it. Those kind of forums are out there, ie: gloryb.

Secondly, I actually know of a BETRAYED SPOUSE that claims he was "run off " by smartcookie's posts to him. So before she commences to scold the rest of us about "running people off" she needs to take a look in the mirror. [JohnnyMac ring a bell, sc??] This was a BS, a victim, and she attacked him for absolutely no reason.

That being said, he left of his own accord. She may have made it uncomfortable for him, but that was entirely his decision, his choice.

Larry, I appreciate this feedback and actually felt the same way when you responded to that very post. You simply responded "I DISAGREE" without ever explaining what you disagreed WITH much less supporting your disagreement, which I found frustrating. Granted, you did come back and correct that situation by explaining yourself, but perhaps we can both learn from this and do a better job of explaining what we mean.

Even so, if someone says something you need clarified, or expanded, all you have to do is ASK for clarification. That is normally the most effective route. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wish I had seen this post before I sat down for an hour and attempted to explain what I believed. I guess I better focus on what I do that I believe works and not worry about others. Except then I don't learn from outside myself. And I do have things to learn.

Thanks Owl.

Larry

Mel:


Yes it is.

Larry

Yes, thanks Owl.

I know exactly what you're saying.

Which is why I tried to frame it as, "Hey, here's something I have learned, from professionals, about how to reach someone in a certain frame of mind. I think it's applicable here. And ya'll might want to consider it when posting to WS's."

It wasn't aimed at any particular poster. Although it was a post on BB's thread (NOT one of Mel's, BTW) that sparked the idea in my head.

Of course everyone is free and welcomed to agree or disagree about whether the technique I'm advocating has merit when communicating with a WS. And if the discussion had remained focused on that -- rather than turned into yet another tired debate about the "rights" of everyone to post as they see fit, and a bunch of personal attacks -- I think the thread might have been productive.

I guess I expected too much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

--SC

I do have questions for anyone and everyone who cares to respond.

Lots of bashing going on here from a lot of sides.

Has anything changed? (See Owl's post)

Has the bashing (by all sides) helped?

Has anyone learned anything?

Has anyone been helped?

I think that the goal of helping people restore their relationship is a good thing. Methods vary. So do the results based on those methods. A complete and full discussion of those methods is often a good thing and can actually infuence people to do the right thing, whatever that is.

Larry

[color:"red"] Mys[/color]



I very much agree.

The time comes in RECOVERY to drop the weapons & symbols of war <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Larry, I think this thread demonstrates a very important lesson, and Owl hit upon this: WE CAN ONLY CONTROL OURSELVES - WE CANNOT CONTROL OTHERS.

None of us here has the power to control the posting styles or methods of any other poster. And believe me, many folks have tried.

People post according their OWN standards, not to appease the personal dictates of others. To believe otherwise is an exercise in futility and frustration. It never works and is always an unproductive board diversion that takes valuable time away from people who really DO need help.

When will we ever learn?

Mys,


While Pep does make a good point...

Just to clarify -- I NEVER suggested that all OP bashing is unproductive. I tried to explain why OP bashing specifically TO a WS can be counter-productive.

Nor was I complaining about anybody getting their feelings hurt or getting "run off". I was talking about using a technique (or perhaps eliminating the technique of OP bashing) in order to reach a certain goal.

My original post had a very specific and narrow focus. Now it's a free-for-all.

--SC

Most threads do take on a life of their own, that is the nature of a thread. And that is ok.

Larry,



Well put. Sadly, some people can't seem to have a civil discussion about methods without getting all defensive and taking a "you can't tell ME what to do!" stance.

Such a bummer.

--SC

Cookie

I do get your point.


One of my tricks when deciding to post to a WS is to ask some questions to sort of gauge where they were character-wise pre-fog .... then look for a crack to apply my crow bar <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

sometimes I think attacking the OP character is not going to be effective, but sometimes I think it will help

varies

and I am sometimes completely wrong in my assessment

but, HEY, it's awl good

oh quit with the dramatics. We did discuss your method. Just because folks didn't agree with your analogy comparing a WS to an "abuse victim" doesn't mean it wasn't discussed. IT WAS.

Yes it was, in some posts. Some agreed and explained why. Others disagreed and explained why. Still others advanced the a civil discussion about other times and places when OP bahsing may or may not be productive. It's all good.

And then there's all the petty [email]cr@p[/email] in between.