Aphelion,

Silly me. At first I actually thought you were asking me questions b/c you wanted to hear the answers. Sometimes I can be so naive.

But your post did get me to thinking, and helped me come to a realization.

After I logged off yesterday, I started thinking about the BS's here for whom I've felt compassion. You'd have to ask them whether or not I've adequately EXPRESSED my compassion to them. Some, I don't think I've ever actually posted to b/c I couldn't think of anything to say or add that would be helpful. But anyway... on the list of those for whom I've at least FELT compassion are rprynne, ChaCha, TruBluz, HealingBird, HopeThisWorks, Mywifeilove, Nia... and I'm sure there are others.

Then I asked myself, why these particular posters? For most of them, I became interested in their stories and started to feel sympathetic/empathetic toward them b/c some aspect of their situation was similar to mine. Or in some cases... several aspects.

But what I realized is that the other thing that ties all of these particular people together is -- they have shown THEMSELVES to be compassionate people. It was much easier for me, as a FWS, to care about about them b/c of that.

And THEN what I realized... is that, if I want to grow and stretch myself, I should try to be more compassionate toward the angry, spouting BS who expresses desires to boil all WS in oil and pluck out all of their body hairs one-by-one. It doesn't mean I'll be posting to these people, as I probably wouldn't be able to offer them anything helpful. But I should at least try to get a reading for them on my own comassion-o-meter. It will be a good exercise for me as I continue my personal recovery.

Thanks.

--SC

Mel helped me more than I can say when I first came here, and I am getting a little sick of seeing her attacked, especially when she is the biggest supporter of peoples rights to post anyway they want.

She cares a great deal for people and donates an incredible amount of time to helping others.

Why don't you all take the time to find out all the good she does do with her honesty, instead of attacking her for it.

Weaver & Mel,

I should have chosen my words much more carefully. Perhaps using only "compassion" and not "sympathy" or "empathy" when disucssing alcoholics.

But as you both so rightly point out... FEELING compassion for someone doesn't necessarily mean you treat them in a way that enables them. Apples and Oranges. Plus, I believe you can have compassion for the PERSON and not their DISEASE/ADDICTION.

And Mel... as for that line about WS feeling pain before they make the choice to cheat... I stand by it. It's true. I never said that made them a "victim" Quit taking things out of context and putting words in my mouth.

--SC

I've changed my mind about something. I've decided I DO want to adress a bit of the mudslinging that happened earlier in this thread afterall.

Mel wrote:


(bold emphasis mine)

This is a complete fabrication. A bold-faced lie that you made up about me out of thin air and stated as fact. And that you have repeated at least three times on this thread and one other.

Since you're so keen on honesty, Mel, I think you owe me an apology.

--SC

SC,

Thinking back, what helped you the most to get out of your fog and get back on board with your marriage? In other words what was it that made you change your ways?

I know what it was for me in the different times in my life when I was self-destructing and hurting a lot of other people on my way.

What was it for you?

Smartcookie,

Although it’s true that some destructive human behavior originates from pain, it can never be used as an excuse to behave that way...especially not if it leads to immense pain to others….and although their actions might originates from their own pain, the person must still take the responsibility and consequences for actions. One can feel sympathy and compassion for such a person’s unfortunate past, but sympathy and compassion for the person’s actions and implying that the person behaved that way because he/she is a “victim” of his/her past, is destructive and not helpful towards such a person at all.

For example it’s possible that murderers and violent people act out their anger this way because of pain which originates from their past (like heavy physical child abuse and growing up in a violent family and community), but this doesn’t excuse their behavior and they still need to pay the consequences…even if it means going to jail. I know if such a person with an unfortunate violent background and upbringing as a child murder one of my loved ones, I will certainly not feel sympathy and compassion for that person.

Not even poorness and disadvantaged background is an excuse IMO for people to steal and commit other crimes.

The same with destructive human behavior like adultery, substance abuse etc. which don’t fall in the category of “breaking the law”.

As you probably know, abuse and destructive behavior some children grow up with and therefore witness and experience in their own family, are often repeated in adulthood and carried over to the next generations if the cycle don't stop. For example:

Many children from alcoholic families often get alcoholics themselves…

Many people who are abused as children (verbally, emotionally, physically or sexually) often carry over the abuse to their own children or other loved ones… But it is not right and never an excuses to commit pain against another or behave in a destructive way.

I remember when I confronted my father’s brother a few years ago about the sexual incest he committed against me when I was still a young child (pre-school), he tried to “explained” his behavior by telling me that he was sexually abused as a child too by a family member and couldn’t control his sexual “urges” because of that and that I was the unfortunate victim. He asked my forgiveness and said he was very sorry and regretful for what he did to me…but I just thought his “explanation” for why he did what he did was WAY out of line. Actually it made me very angry at the time and although he was sorry, I felt that he tried to rationalize and justify his past behavior with his "explanation".

Suzet,

I agree with you. Aphelion asked me why I empathize with WS. I said, "b/c I understand their pain". Then MEDC suggested that WS cause their own pain, therefore don't deserve consideration for said pain. And so I expanded upon my answer.

I NEVER SAID NOR MEANT TO IMPLY that it was an excuse for anything. I do NOT believe it's an excuse.

My brother may very well have been in pain when he sexually abused me. My mother may have been in pain when she blamed me for it. That doesn't excuse their actions. But I even believe THEY are worthy of compassion.

--SC

Weaver, good question. I'll give it some thought and get back to you.

Hey cookie.

I see the thread has progressed right along. And you are changing your perception. Lemme see if what I wrote last night helps. And folks, this is about how I think, your own mileage may vary for the reasons of your own life experience and how you have absorbed your learning.




Don't be sorry. You made a valid point. And you made it well. What you missed was the right target.

A wayward spouse is NOT a victim of abuse, they are the abuser in most, but not all cases.

And the guidelines for dealing with an abuser are crystal clear and readily available on the web in a number of places. And in that context, you are clearly 100 percent correct to stay away from emotional words and deal strictly with the facts. And for those who want to go read, the reasons are presented in an almost uniform way on every site that deals with this issue and the reasons are detailed exactly with no room for quibble, period.

After the facts can be determined as accurately, completely and unemotionally as possible, abuser directed counseling then proceeds in a different direction and the first labels are introduced with full explanation of what they did and the consequences. It goes from there. And the process can be somewhat harsh.

But, you listed the guidelines for dealing with the victim, which in the case of affairs, is the betrayed, NOT the wayward. But you were right in a way.

How did you miss that? How did I miss that initially?

The guidelines for dealing with the abused does recommend that labels not be used, at least not initially and the reasons for this is "A lot of battering behavior is geared towards making the victim feel responsible for the violence in their lives, so most survivors will have a heightened sensitivity to anything that might confirm feelings of self-blame. The batterer is the one who is responsible for the violence."

Affairs have some of the same dynamics as domestic violence. There are also some differences. For one thing, there is another abuser involved and multiple victims of the abuse; affairs are a form of abuse by definition so no argument there so far. If it is useful to detail the harmful effects of an affair to an wayward spouse, it is also useful to detail that the other person is also engaged in less than honorable activities. This is where affairs are different, yet the same. One of the first steps is to start driving a wedge between one wayward and the other. That will happen anyway, so no harm in helping the process, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In my limited experience, ever single wayward I have talked to or read about, has at one point or another confessed that they did not exactly trust the other wayward. The reason for that is obvious. Yet at the same time, you hear all this soul mate garbage and they defend the other wayward; yet there is doubt. I would be interested if anyone else has a take on what percentage of waywards have that doubt in their back of their minds. MrsW, care to comment?

The bottom line for me is to treat the wayward like an abuser. I try not to call them names. If I label the other person for the purpose of driving a wedge, I explain why the label is earned. There is a whole lot more to it and I am not going to write a book I am not qualified to write, so I will stop. And besides, I have zero professional credentials

I will comment that there are a ton of men who are victims of domestic violence. I mean as in millions. Just a comment. And they don't have domestic violence shelters for those males.


If you have sympathy for the victims of abuse, you should have sympathy for the victims of infidelity or sympathy for the victims of a train wreck. You want me to list the similarities up to and including that most abusers believe the abused brought it on themselves, just like waywards think in garden variety affairs?


Yea it hurts. Unless the wayward is a complete critter or partly a critter, it hurts like crazy. It hurts because their fantasy didn't end well.

It sometimes hurts because when (if) they wake up and smell the roses, they get the idea that they might have done something wrong for all the wrong reasons and guilt sets in that they hurt people who trusted them. Yes, and there ARE conditions where a wayward feels abused BEFORE they run into the illusion of safety in an affair. I can see that and have sympathy for them; not the direction they ran, the precursor events. For example, it is sometimes common for those who are victims of domestic abuse to seek another male or female as a refuge. In that case, where the heck do you apply the label "Abuser?"

But mostly we deal with common, garden variety affairs instead of the more complex ones. And with those, the abuser is the wayward and the victim is the abused. I do agree with you that a wayward may be in a state of emotional turmoil prior to the affair. I agree that the state of the marriage may be what is producing that state of turmoil and yes that state could be called pain. No argument with you on that. From that point, we diverge. The way to handle pain is to do something about it that doesn't cause more pain. Instead, waywards and abusers do stuff that cause more pain both to themselves and others. This is called self destructive. Do you feel sorry for an abuser who is in pain and takes it out on his/her spouse by beating on them? And by the way, abuse is more than just physical violence. It can also be emotional abuse, which can be as damaging as beating the whey out of someone.

Negative consequences are designed to cause pain, it is nature's way of saying: "Don't do that again, you idiot." Unfortunately it takes some people more than once to get it and some people never do. Wanna see some real pain? Go over to the wayward site and read for a while. And they brung it on themselves.

When passing out sympathy, please remember that most affairs hurt more than just the perp, er, the wayward. So we have a person making a choice to do something that is hurtful not only for themselves, but also all those other parties in their life, like spouses, kids, the OP spouse and kids, family, friends, etc.

A wayward makes a choice.

They follow their emotions around instead of their moral compass sorta like retrograde teenagers. So with me, frankly, how much sympathy do they deserve for the pain they experience because of the choices they made? How much sympathy do they deserve for choosing to follow the path they elected to escape whatever pain they have in their life because of prior choices and/or an inability or disinclination to seek help before they take the path of an affair?

Give them help? Sure! Give them sympathy, not much, at least from this guy.

From my own point of view, I am more or less respectful toward waywards. Why not? It doesn't cost me anything and they are more likely to listen to me than if I took the position of beating on them until they felt better about themselves. This doesn't mean I respect what they have done or whatever phony baloney reasons they cooked up as justification. It just means that I view them as someone who did something wrong and unless they are an entitlement critter, there is an opportunity for them to rejoin the human race and make up for the damage they have done, if they want to make that choice possible.

And I should point out that forgiving yourself for the right reasons as a wayward is a far different cry from having sympathy for yourself for the wrong reasons, given the circumstances. Forgiving yourself is a reality check and part of the healing process. Having sympathy for yourself because you choose not to exercise control over your emotions and thus did something hurtful for not only yourself, but others, is kinda, well, immature. It sure isn't grown up stuff.

Abusers and DUI types feel sorry for themselves when they get to meet bubba up close and personal in a grey bar hotel. And they are full of excuses. Excuses enable. Forgive yourself as you get your head on straight, sure! Have sympathy for yourself; don't even go there, that is more just following your emotions instead of learning to deal with them. Everyone has affair emotions and some of us even have good reason besides Harley's definition. But not everyone so engages. Some people deal with their affair emotions like grown ups. Others do not.

Anyway, I can be respectful towards waywards. They are, after all, human beings. Yes they are engaged in hurtful behavior and some folks think that calling them names will help. I don't, but that is just me. On the other hand, you can pin a label and make it stick if you explain and that, for me, is what I try to do. In my opinion, a label without explanation of how that label is earned raises defenses and is counterproductive. I am interested in outcomes and I try, not always successfully, to refrain from name calling without fully explained justification.

But sympathy? Not even when they want to make it up to someone they have abused. Respect, sure. Sympathy, no.

See, my poor ex-neighbor is dead now, committed suicide, so I guess his WW can't make it up to him no matter how hard she would try. And that case is prolly why I say that domestic violence and affairs are right up there at the same level, plus my own up close and personal experience.

They put abusers and DUI types in jail. They don't do that anymore with waywards or stone them. Maybe they don't make enough jails. The world changes.

Thank you for starting this thread. I learned something, maybe more than just something. I hope others here have as well.

Larry

I am somewhat on your side on this. Mel has also helped me when she has been in help mode and I have seen her do it with others. She is not always in help mode, imho. And therein lies the rub. She has experience and wisdom when she cares to share it but she sometimes lashes out without sharing. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel is, like all of us, a human being with good days and not so good days. I am not a charter member of her fan club (recent thread) but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what she does when she chooses to do it.

And if the rest of that post is something that Mel wrote, I now have a better understanding where she was and where she is as a human being. Frankly, as a betrayed spouse I would have had a lot to say about that post from my point of view that she may or may not have been receptive to hearing at the time.

But there is no point at this late date.

Larry

Hmmmm,
since the OP is actually IRRELEVENT in the grand scheme of things ......what does it matter if I talk rudely about them, indifferent about them or just NOT at all??

Sure I bashed on the CLB for awhile ......but once I got it out of my system I didn't WANT to even Think about him anymore ......let alone Mention him OR bring him up.

Much in the same way as the A itself.
Truly,
I thought and talked about it for a long long Looong time.
Then eventually EVEN [color:"blue"] I [/color] got Weary of it all .........................................so I Stopped.

(Although that's not to say I still couldn't have some strong opinions IF the subject was to be brought up ....its just they would have to be dug up, as I am no longer in a constant slow boil over it all).
Thank goodness.

As to a WS defending the OP ......well, that just shows where their Head and heart still are.
Once they are past doing that action .....its a Real Sign that they are actually contrite and moving towards the relationship in a real way (not just speaking air).

Unfortunately,
Till then all your dealing with is (at the least) a mentally active WS.
And with one of those,
I see no problem in taking their fantasy down a peg or 3.

100% agree TopRope. So why do something (bash the OP) that might cause the WS to defend the OP even more... driving them even further into waywardville?

Do you really take the WS's fantasy down a peg or two? Or do you just cause them to go into defense mode so they can't hear anything else you're saying?

--SC

(Larry, thanks for that thoughtful post. I'm working on a reply)

SC... your premise that bad behaviors originate from pain in most cases is far off the mark. I think that greed, lack of integrity, lack of morals, entitlement and general meanness about covers why people in most cases act out. Now, show me a person in pain that commits a crime.... like a BS that walks in on his/her spouse getting f-ed... and I will have compassion. Show me a person that finally has enough of physical abuse and sticks a staek knife in her spouse... and I would and HAVE put the cuffs on a little looser while telling her please be quiet and talk to your lawyer before saying anything to me.... these types of people are due compassion. A woman that shoves a mans penis in her mouth over and over again... or a man that decides it is okay to put his tongue or penis in someone else deserves nothing more than fingers of shame pointed directly at their horrible actions and nature. See, they are horrible people until they stop being horrible. IMHO, every WS out there should lose all marital rights and children until they PROVE they are different.
On this web site there is this "there but by the Grace of God go I" menatlity in regards to infidelity. I say bull crappy about that. There are some people that are driven by character and integrity and if you are... you could never become a WS. NEVER. Now WS can develop these traits and become good people... but while they are wayward and treating those around them as punching bags... they really are nothing more than evil personified. But the beauty is that they can change.....and one thing I see is that many here have done a great job with this. They have devoted themselves to being better spouses and better PEOPLE... for when they were wayward, they were lousy mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, daughters and sons...worthy of every ounce of scorn that comes their way. When they show.... and only when they show a willingness to change are they due a helping hand in pulling them out of the scum that they have been swimming in.

MEDC

Sadly SC,
That's why its routinely referred to as a Fantasy.

Hence,
some reality needs to be injected to interrupt the continuing mental LOOP the WS is all caught up in.

Sure some of it is a carrot ...hence the plan A on yourself (the BS).

But I have NO problem with using a crow bar at times too........hence telling the TRUTH about the character and Actions of the OP.
As they say, many times the truth Hurts. Sad but true.

If that causes some shame (or other) reaction from the WS,
as they are guilty of the same and don't like the mirror .....well, that's just part of my huge fan to help blow away the fog.

Interesting how the WS loves the mirror of the OP ......up and until someone turns on the light.

Oh well,
we all should have batteries to burn when it comes to that.

If your a thief .....and I confront and tell you its wrong & Point out the flaws in your partner that's assisting you .......how is that contributing to your continuing to do it??

You did it for the thrill, the rush , your lazy.....whatever.

I'm simply pointing out the negatives that you've apparently decided to ignore.

What you do with it is up to you .....and Proves (by Your actions) whether or not your reforming yourself.

Should you get defensive and rush out to steal more (or even try to convince me of the great qualities your partner in crime possesses).....had little to do with what I've said, and everything to do with YOU and your issues.

Not my albatross if someone else decides to engage in wrong type thinking.

By the way:
[Not accusing anyone OR you of being a thief ....simply using it as an object of comparison .....and NO - no comparison is 100% applicable, so Please no attacks on the apples and oranges stuff].
I ain't as deep thinkin as some here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Larry,

I'm just glad people have such diverse personalities. It keeps me interested, and often amused. And who the heck knows what words will get through to someone. And the people who are posting to others are often helping themselves most of all.

Boy I belted out some hateful posts in my day. And each one was a lesson to me, as I am sure I hurt myself more than the person I attacked.

Since we are talking about posting styles, the rudest of all, IMO, are the ones who ignore someones post completely. I can think of nothing more hurtful than being ignored.

Someone starts a thread and then ignores half the posters who respond to them.

Rude!

Or never says "thank you for your post", "thank you for your thoughts", etc.

I mean after all, a wink is as good as a nod. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Larry,

I read all of what you wrote about the guidelines for dealing with abuse victims vs. perpetrators and think I undersand most of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

But as I've already said a number of times... IMO... the victim/victimizer dynamic is somewhat irrelevant to my very narrow point about the likely reaction of a WS to OP bashing. No matter who the victim/victimizer is in the equation... if you have feelings for someone and someone else comes along and bashes them... your knee-jerk reaction will be to defend them. And the more you defend them, the more you believe your own words.

(and please don't lecute me about saying that the WS has "feelings" for the OP. Yes, those feelings are destructive, wrong, based on lies and fantacy and brain chemicals, selfish, etc, etc, etc. But they are often, also, very powerful. Like a fog-inducing drug, right?)





I don't understand your point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I stated that I DO have sympathy for BSs. I was thinking that it wasn't possible for me to have Empathy (only sympathy). But I was mixing up the words and wrongly defining them. I was thinking that you could have sympathy for anyone, but only empathy for those with whom you've had similar experiences.

With my handy-dandy dictionary next to me, I now see that all that to have empathy is to "identify with and understand another's situation, feelings and motives." And sympathy is "a relationship or affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other."

So Aphelion was correct to use the word empathy... and I just made it much more complicated and confusing that it needed to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway... if you still question whether I give a hoot about BSs... I'll refer you back to the post I wrote to Aphelion earlier this morning.

As for why I have compassion for WS -- even active ones -- I think I addressed that as well (although I'm starting to lose track). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Mkeverday...


Most folks here subscribe to Harley's principals. He has the thousands and thousands of success stories to back up what he teaches. He teaches that the seeds of betrayal are within all of us; affairs are a failure to protect our weaknesses. I am a BS and I understand your pain, something that leaps out of your post. Harley takes a somewhat objective view which neither you nor I am totally capable of doing.

This is why this forum has somewhat the attitude you describe, but not entirely. After all, you are free to post your feelings exactly as you have done. The original point of this thread was methods; how to help someone who is abused (betrayed) or an abuser (betrayer), which I can respect (methods) even when I disagree with a particular one (style of method).

While reading your post, a thought came in my mind. How much of Harley have you read? Have you read Surviving? How much work have you done to heal yourself using what he teaches? See, the point of this forum is to help people heal. How is it working for you?

Larry

I don't even know what to make of this. Either you and I hang-out in totally different crowds... or... I just don't know. I personally, off the top of my head, can't think of a single person who's just plain mean, greedy, and without morals or integrity etc. I know some people who seem that way on the surface... but most of them have a lot more than that going on below the surface, IME.

If you really don't believe that most destructive behavior comes out of pain... we don't even have a starting point for a discussion. It's like trying to convince someone who truly does NOT believe that life begins at conception that abortion is wrong. Without a common starting point -- you'll never see eye to eye. never. And you can't even really have a productive discussion about it.

Have you ever considered what makes a person into a bully? Hint: in most cases it's not a kid from a home where kindness, respect, love, listening, caring, and compassion are the norm. Calling a bully "just plain mean" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what makes most of them tick.

--SC

Larry... yes, I have read a lot and really don't feel like I am in pain at this point. My IC agrees with me(and he sees me 2 x a month for issues unrelated to infidleity). And Larry, I will disagree with the good doctor that makes his living off of infidelity on the point that the seeds are in everyone regarding infidelity. I also believe I can be objective about my own life... and I know quite a few others that I know feel the same way(even though they agree with the majority of his ideas). To me there is a character flaw that allows these things to happen... and for the record, my post was about more than infidelity.

And it has worked just fine for me Larry... thanks for asking.

MEDC