My apologies to anyone whose statements I misrepresented. That's the problem with shorthand summaries.

Orchid,
Here was the source of my confusion. You said:


That's what I focused on. Again, sorry if I misunderstood and misrepresented what you said.



Mel,


Oh... but I did not equate the two. You are once again twisting my words and meaning.

You said -- don't post to others until you're fixed.
I surmised -- that "fixed" must mean living by the MB principles.
I pointed out -- where you were not living by the MB principles, but were still able to offer a very valuable insight. (you're husband's reaction to your lie by omission is irrelevant.)

So now I see you saying that all you need to do to be "fixed" is eliminate infidelity from you life and come clean about it to your S. Other types of deception or marital problems don't count. Great! Glad to hear it! That means I'm all "fixed"! Hooray! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

--SC

SC,

Bashing the OP..... it's a given. They bait the BS every chance they get. Part of the OP make-up. OW's are usually the worse offenders.... in my case the OW said she had the right to take my title, H and whatever else pleased her. Very blatant. I dealt with it at the level I experienced. There was no remorse on her part to the very end. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if she went to do it again.

For those types, 'bashing the OP' is easy. They set themselves on a level that deserves to be brought down. The crazy part is that she doesn't know how bad her reputation has been ruined. Most people won't tell such a one, they are wearing the 'scarlet letter'.

Let me expand on the quote you gave. My 1st interaction with the OW was when I called her from my home. I asked for the OW, who cheaply replied that she was at work. Let's see.....there was only 1 woman living in that house... ALONE.... she answered the phone and had the gall to pretend she was someone else! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Hm..... in my state of shock, I said.... are you sure she is at work?!?? That infuriated the OW who immediately started swearing worse than a drunken sailor. I was shocked.

A few months later when she called my home and demanded to speak to the WS (who was in the shower), she again decided to share her limited vocabularly with me. I told her straight up that those words (B, F-U, etc.) didn't not apply to me and not something I would ever do with her. But was she describing herself? LOL!!! That also infuriated her. Well....dumb bunny.... she asked for it. See, she thought her vulgar language would scare me off.... it just made me RB better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This type of OW is not t/b confused with someone who has taken great strides to shed that skin. Who acknowledges the error of their ways and truly repents from such a selfish and hateful course.

For me, I will continue to bash those who act that stupid. I will give you an example:

During my lunch, I went to Mikkey D's with a co-worker. She was one of my supporters and a good friend. We saw a couple who were quite cozy despite being in a fast food restaurant with lots of kids around. They didn't act like a couple dating or married. They had the stench of an affair.

We sat 1 table away. They were totally engrossed in each other until I casually mentioned out loud something about a 'wife' being able to tell when their H was having an A. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Thought the guy was gonna puke. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Was I glad I did it? Yes... I was. Would do it again. My GF almost lost her drink. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bashing the OP. Done right c/b healing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope this clears all...... I don't mind if others disagree. That's ok. This stuff is JMHO, anyways. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Fair enough.

Perhaps in the future, you could bother yourself to actually read what the original poster has written about his or her particular situation... which would enable you to formulate a reply that actually applies to said situation... thereby eliminating any potential confusion over what they hayl you're talkin' 'bout.

Just a thought. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Orchid,
Not only does it clear things up, but thanks for the laughs. Seriously. You are one witty, funny flower!! Love the McDonald's story! Love your response to "FU" ("not something I would ever do with her."). All very good stuff indeed.

(On this thread, I was originally talking about posting to WS here on this board... Not about BSs interacting with their own WSs or OPs. But I'd welcome your stories of RB anytime, anyplace -- even if the topic of the thread is whether the moon is made out of green cheese!!)

--SC

P.S. I do know that dealing with infidelity as a BS is no laughing matter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Just want to acknowledge that.

Again, here we go with the little fogged out moral equations. You equate the independent behavior of a BS with the adulterous wayward mindset of a wayward spouse. Both are equally "broken" in your mind.

Getting "fixed" is changing from a sick, WAYWARD MINDSET to a healthy mindset that does not seek fogged out moral equations in an attempt to rationalize waywardness. There is a huge difference between INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR of a BS and adulterous, waywardness, but you fail to see the difference. With every post, you just bolster my points, sc. Can you really not see that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

In other words, you do not see a difference between the falling down drunk, who rejects the steps, and the member with 5 yrs sobriety who is working on Step 10.

And it was not a "lie by omission," anymore than not telling your H what you ate for lunch yesterday is a "lie by omission." Thats silly and you know it.

This spin is just more evidence of a wayward mind, sc. Thanks for making my points. lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mel, I haven’t seen SC made any attempts (on this thread or anywhere else) to rationalize or justify waywardness… IMO she didn’t use that finance example in your M to rationalize or equate anything. In her previous post she made it clear to you that she don’t equate your previous situation with infidelity (of course it will be ridiculous to equate the two, but that's not what she has done). As far as I can see she used it an example to show you her point.

I also think a person with a sick, wayward mindset will not be able to turn away from infidelity, be in a recovering marriage and take responsibility for her wrong actions & choices of the past…

Suzet, what she is doing is attempting to make a moral equation between a very broken wayward mind and that of a betrayed spouse. In her mind there is no difference. And yes she did make that equation. She wrote: "I surmised -- that "fixed" must mean living by the MB principles." In other words, a BS who has independent behavior is "broken" just like her. Making such an equation is a sign of wayward mind.

And I don't agree that a wayward mindset cannot turn away from adultery. We do have waywards on this forum who are not currently in an affair,[they claim] but still have this FOGGED OUT MINDSET. Rather than recover, or help others to that goal, they defend the foggy lifestyle, with threads like this, by objecting to anything that threatens said mindset, ie: MB principles, forthright speech about waywardness, etc.

Mel,

I did not equate your lie/independent behavior/however you want to define it... with anything.

It's an example. Not a comparison.

BTW, I think you need to get yourself a new mind-reading machine. Yours seems to be on the fritz. Or maybe you should quit trying to read anyone elses mind all together.

--SC

Mel, I personally don’t believe SC’s intention was to make a moral equation between those two situations at all (as I’ve pointed out on my previous post after the editing). I really think she just used it as an example to show you her point, but okay, let’s assume that SC did mean it that way - to morally equate the two (which I don’t think she did) – then it still doesn’t mean that she rationalize or justify wayward behavior. Even if she equated the two (which would have been ridiculous and very fogged out, I agree) it’s still not a rationalization or justification for anything. Can you see my point?

sc, and I certainly did not equate your calling independent behavior a "LIE" to be a clear sign of a wayward mind on the hunt for moral equations, so we are on the same page. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

suzet, I don't think she was rationalizing wayward BEHAVIOR, as I stated above, but trying to rationalize the value of her opinion as an unrecovered wayward by making a comparison between herself, to someone who is simply working the principles. To her there is no difference.

The whole point of her equation was to demonstrate that her views, as a wayward who rejects MB principles, is just as valid as mine, a betrayed spouse who was working on - and changed - her independent behavior. She expressed that she does not discredit MY opinions because I had not worked MB principles perfectly [my H and I had seperate finances by choice] and therefore, I should not discredit HERS since neither does she work - or even accept - MB principles.

This was the warped little equation she made. And that is a demonstration of a wayward mindset. This is like comparing a falling down drunk, who reject the AA steps, with a sober alcoholic who is working on Step 10. One is committed to recovery, one is not. She ain't committed to recovery.

hey cookiedumb.... I read the posts from BB... it seems to be you that has a problem with comprehension....you are obviously nothing more than a WS apologist that certainly will seek out people of a like mind when your next affair hits.

Affiars don't "hit". They are a choice. I choose "no".

Thanks Mel, your explanation make sense now. I think if was in your shoes (or the shoes of another BS) I would feel VERY hurt and upset by such a comparison too... But...at the same time I can see SC’s frustration on this thread...and if a person feels “attacked” and misunderstood by some BS’s...and is even accused of a wayward mindset and other things (which might not necessarily be true)...then I can understand such a person's attempts to defend oneself and use examples (even if the examples might be way off base) to try and illustrate a point.

sc,

You missed my point. By a mile and a quarter.

I was giving you a tongue in cheek example of how many posters view you. You so often come across as an actively entitled WS. Why? Well, see my post again.

I am sure you can always and every time explain away your own meaning. But still, you appear entrenched WS. Even to me.

sc, every last adulterer on the face of the earth no longer deserves the time of day. IMO they have forfeit honest and caring love for ever.

For what they have done, for the lives destroyed, the pain inflicted, the lies told, the solemn promises egregiously broken and each and every tear of an innocent child - they deserve to never be married again, to anyone, ever. Adulterers no longer merit true love.

OTOH, adulterers do indeed deserve each other - for all eternity. This is what they truly deserve, each other for ever and ever.

Only the compassion and love-is-a-verb actions of the BS and the people who support the sacramental covenant of marriage save the adulterers from what they actually deserve.

Really, if justice was poetic and absolute, adulterers would be together for eternity. And that sounds to me like one of the deeper pits in he11.

But I do not wish that on anyone, not even dirt bag OM.

So I turn him over to God and I try to forget about him.

Consider yourself turned over to God.

And now I forget about you.

So...does anyone know what the H's counsel BS's about bashing OP's to the WS?

Can anyone who's been through the program with the H's talk about how THEY referred to the OP as the counselor providing support and advice to the people that come to them for counseling?

Are you getting an idea now SC, of the damage done by the WS/OP?

Just the very idea of being brought to task by not replying in just the right way to a WS about her OP is laughable. If a WS in active WS fog mentality mode doesn't like what is being said...tough! It is the truth.

Lets pacify, appease, watch our words, empathize... so as not to offend or heaven forbid cause defensiveness.

If we are causing defensiveness I say good! Cause more. As that is where the biggest accumulation of fog will lie.

Harley didn't cause any defensiveness in me, because I wasn't doing anything wrong. My life was almost completely destroyed because I trusted someone who was not trustworthy.

The people here calling him a POS which he is, helped me to regain my sanity and trust in myself.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the very idea that anyone could ever be guilty of OP bashing. It's ridiculous. Like not being able to call a liar a liar, or a thief a thief.

BB already had one PA under her belt, her husband through his compassion forgave her...now he is being raped over and over again in her mind, everytime she imagines herself with his brother.

I wish I didn't come here today and read Ap's pain.

And the point that was being made by myself and those who didn't find fault with naming the OP by a derogatory name was that the OP is being romanticized, heroized (is that a word), made into this wonderful person in the mind of the WS...and this is where the nucleous of the affair lies...in the mind of the WS.

Why would it be a mistake to bring to light that no, this is not a hero you are beginning an affair with or in an affair with. Hero's don't have affairs. Honorable people do not eff someone elses spouse. Don't you think we should point this out to the WS? Don't you think this is pertinent information that they are obviously lacking when they build the OP up in their mind as a great catch?

How is it a mistake to call it like it is? How could it be better to not?

I don't get that sc. I really don't.

I believe the Harleys tell the BS not to make disparaging comments to their SPOUSE about the OP, but that has nothing to do with folks in a self help group. In a HEALTHY self help group environment, such as AA or NA, they do not mince words or bastardize the English language to appease the foggy minded, because that is considered ENABLING.

However, I will be seeing them this weekend, and I will ask Dr. Harley if he believes it is OK to call a CAD A CAD on his forum. Versus calling him a PEACH or something. Somehow I don't think he is much of an enabler. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]