Larry,

I have more experience dealing with alcoholics and addicts than I do infidels, but if we believe that an affair is an addiction than the same concept for getting through to them would apply.

You don't hide the mess they make until you think they are ready to receive the reality of what they have done. You don't downplay the poison of their choice. You do not in anyway shield them from the truth.

You give it all to them and hope that the "bluntness" of the force of it will start a crack in their faulty thinking.

I don't believe in going in the back door, as some here suggest. I don't believe it works, and I certainly don't believe it helps to build up trust.

As to my own nightmarish trip into the world of infidelity -

As I said before, I desperately needed the people here to tell me the man I was hooked up with was a POS. I was in deep and could not see things clearly.

I needed brutal honesty, and serious help to get out of something that had an iron clad hold on me.

I thought the person I was with was a wonderful person, even though in his path lay nothing but chaos and destruction. He had even taught his own children to lie. I didn't have the necessary brain capacity at the time to reason that he was a bad man. And I am not trying to lay all the blame on him, but this was the crack that started my head working in the right direction...away from him.

Then I could get back to a place where I could take responsibility and begin the acceptance of what I had done and the subsequent self-frgiveness and healing.

edited to add:

And still, I held on It took along time, but when he finally left me I had the wherewithall to let him go. I was able to listen to Steve Harley when he told me it was an affair and it would take a solid six months of no contact before I was able to think clearly. And it did.

Ephesians 5:11

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

weaver:

Thank you for your reply. I know you are doing your best to explain to me what you are all about and I appreciate it. I ask for clarification because a valid suggestion has been made that I should so do when I don't really, after reflection, understand something. So I am doing it. You are an FWW, so your mind set before, during, after and after and after is very important to me. I need understanding to help me deal with my own life and my own issues as well as to learn approaches that might help someone else as payback for all the help that has been given me.

I think I know the difference between brutal and blunt. Find definitions below my signature. I highlighted what I think is different with blunt versus brutal.

So in the context of the many stages of an affair, which is better, brutal or blunt or both and when. I really want to know your opinion based on your valid personal experience, which I do not share since I have not walked in your shoes.

For example, and this is a direct question, was Steve brutal or blunt or both or none of the above in his dealings with you?

If you have ever seen any of my "Brutal" posts (very few), you know I can lean in that direction. If you have seen any of my "Blunt" posts (many), you know I can play that song as well. I am interested in helping people and helping myself and my family. That is the only place I am going with my question. This is for me to learn, not something I want to use to bash anyone else with. I also understand that everyone is different. What worked with you may or may not apply with the next person.

Larry

bru·tal
–adjective 1. savage; cruel; inhuman: a brutal attack on the village.
2. crude; coarse: brutal language.
3. harsh; ferocious: brutal criticism; brutal weather.
4. taxing, demanding, or exhausting: They're having a brutal time making ends meet.
5. irrational; unreasoning.

Blunt

characterized by directness in manner or speech; without subtlety or evasion; "blunt talking and straight shooting"; "a blunt New England farmer"; "I gave them my candid opinion"; "forthright criticism"; "a forthright approach to the problem"; "tell me what you think--and you may just as well be frank"; is possible to be outspoken without being rude"lainspoken and to the point"; "a point-blank accusation"

Mrs W-

You're absolutely right...I'm every bit as entitled to my 'wrong' opinion as you are entitled to your 'wrong' opinion. And equally as entitled to express that opinion as you or anyone else on this board. Interesting that I've never claimed that your opinion...or Mel's or anyone else's is wrong...an opinion is just that...how you feel on an issue or subject. It's not right or wrong...it is. If you don't like mine...put me on your ignore list.

Mel-

As I stated above...I'm every bit as entitled to express my opinion on this board as you or anyone else is. I have no expectation that you'll agree with it or change your posting method, anymore than I expect your opinion to change mine. That doesn't prevent you from stongly voicing your thoughts and opinions on the subject, nor will it prevent me from doing the same.

You are no more "right" than I am, or anyone else on this board.

I'm amazed that you still seem to feel that I'm telling you how to post...or anyone else for that matter. As I stated at the beginning of my post...this was my opinion. I know that I'm not going to convince you to change, and frankly wasn't trying to. I was voicing my opinion.

If you're so dead set on the concept of 'telling others how to post'...why do you continually try to tell me how to post?

I've also noticed that you've suddenly started bringing this 'censorship by the mods' thing up as a flame against several of us here...I'm curious how often you've been editted out as well? As a matter of fact...I'd love to see a comparison of the two, as the number of times that's happened to me has been quite few.

Once again Mel...I'm not telling you how to post. I'm voicing my opinion on posting styles...just as the rest of the people in this thread are doing. As I mentioned to Mrs W...if you don't like what I've got to say, please feel free to put me on your /ignore list. It won't hurt my feelings any more than it would hurt yours.

With the definitions you have given to me, I mean blunt. I would never suggest cruelty for any reason.

I was not a FWW, I was a single OW. I didn't know my ex-fiance was married for the first 8 months of our relationship.

I can only understand the mindset from the point of addiction. I was very much addicted. It completely altered my prior views and boundaries I had maintained regarding MM. I had very good boundaries and would never, ever, ever knowingly have dated a MM. However I was very much addicted by the time I found out.

Steve Harley was not cruel in any sense of the word. He was blunt, but with kindness and no judgeing. He simply stated that I had been conned, that it was in fact an affair even though the MM had divorced his wife when I found out he was already married. SH did not cause any defensiveness in me, and he managed to not sugar coat anything either.

When I read of the recovered marriages here, it seems to me that the men who have recovered their marriages are those who did it with a high level of self-respect. I know those that stated to their WW's in the beginning of their recoveries that they would not live in a loveless marriage and that they would not allow the WW to take the children if they left have seemingly fared the best.

Blunt, honest, loving. I'm sorry if I used a word that meant cruel.

In dealing with addicts, trust comes from your ability to be unwavering. The addict is unsure, scared, full of false thought processes and they know it. They need help from someone who is not those things.

A good plan A will take the BS to a place where he can be these things he will need to be to get to and through recovery.

Yes, you are attempting to tell others HOW TO POST. Which is arrogant, controlling..........and most of all: FUTILE. You have an expectation that others should post ACCORDING TO YOUR PERSONAL STANDARDS. It is arrogant, OWL, to imagine that YOU are qualified to SET that standard for others.

Even the mods have asked you to stop and you just don't get it. Owl, people post according to THEIR STANDARDS. They post in a style that SUITS THEM. They are not interested in YOUR STANDARDS. Can you understand that?

I sometimes wish posters would be more forthright and honest in their posts, but whyever in the world would I expect a person to conform to MY STANDARDS? That is like telling a person they should LIKE the color red, just because that is my personal favorite. How silly would that be?

So for the 100th time, Owl. I post in the manner that SUITS ME. If you have a problem with that, be assured that it is your own personal problem. So, it is not neccessary to harp endlessly about other's posting styles.

Owl.. I second this.... you have done this to me.

Awww, LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS!!! Don't make me call the WAAAAAAAAAmbulance for ya!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> It's Friday, I'm in a good mood...So sue me...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MF...

I totally agree with you that exposure has got to be he[i][/i]ll on the BS...I've often thought of that...I can't tell you how ashamed I am that I ever put Mr. W in that position...Bless his heart and all those of BSs everywhere...

SC...

Thank you for answering my question...Still doesn't make sense to me that you didn't tell your husband EVERYTHING in the fall of 05...I gotta be honest, it seems like a CYA move to me...When my affair came out Mr. W and I BOTH told each other EVERYTHING wrong that we'd EVER done-It all came crashing to the forefront of our minds in that time of urgent crisis-no matter how deep it was "buried"...Radical Honesty and all ya know...Made for a much smoother recovery that way...

Mrs. W

Agreed. I posted in response to this thread which had turned to that subject. I made it clear REPEATEDLY that I've not asked you, or anyone else, to change their styles. You're the one right now trying to tell me how to post, not the other way around.

Again...please feel free to put me on your ignore list. And if the W's or MEDC or anyone else feels the same way, please, don't hesitate to excersise that option as well.

Wanted to add one thing...can you show me where in the course of this thread, I've told you, or told anyone, that they need to change? You can't. I posted noting why I think some techniques are more effective at different times than others. I never said "Mel, you need to...". However, I've seen a lot of that in YOUR responses.

I have done that in the past. And recognized that and backed off on doing so, even when I've had some heartburn over how some posters have been treated recently, I've refrained from jumping in. In THIS case, I posted a response to a thread already on that subject...and my thread was my opinion on why some things work better than others.

OK...done. Have fun ya'll.

Thank you weaver. I see us as on the same page and maybe the same paragraph in most cases.

Larry

Thanks Mel, that's the one...

MEDC, thanks for yours too.

It's always good to have those handy (or better yet, memorized), for when you start hearing fellow Christians questioning exposure.

Apparently even God knows that affairs (and sin in general) thrive in the dark and ugliness of secrecy.

I guess that's why Satan is called the Prince of Darkness.

MF:


Oh yea, I really wanted to let the world know that I had grown a set of horns on my head and my wife couldn't keep her drawers on. Yea buddy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I wudda done it, wudda hated it, didn't have to. The combined threat of exposure plus all the other stuff woke her up. I was not on MB at the time. But I was prepared to let the world know anyway. One of the reasons the OM ran like crazy instead of hanging around and fighting was that I explained that if he did, his Grandmother would be told.

Exposure works. But it ain't a lot of fun. Great post MF

Larry

******edit**********

It is time for the people of this board to get some new leaders that know how to talk to ALL people with respect. That goes for WS's that come on here and BS's.*************edit***********

******edit************

HELPING others to help their marriages should be what this site is about. That should go for a WS who comes her or a BS who comes here. The BS will listen because they are hurting so bad, that they will listen to anything that gives them hope to save their marriage. The WS is a different situation and requires different tactics to not only help them, but to ENCOURAGE them to listen and yet also be HEARD (hard as it may be for you) That almost ALWAYS takes patience and holding back from the HELPER.

It may be time for new leaders on here who DO know how to talk to both instead of someone who keeps telling us that they will talk anyway they want on here and post in any style they want, and if you don't like it, then it is YOU who have the problem (verbal abuser tactic). We don't need this type of leader people. The sooner some of you stand up and say no to this nonsense the better for this site and the MORE RELATIONSHIPS THAT WILL BE SAVED. I GUARANTEE IT.

~emphasis mine

Now Owl, I have honestly been joking with you all in good fun today, so I won't be putting you ignore and I hope that you won't be doing that to me, and Mr. W has made not a peep about "this"...so, yanno, that's kinda moot and all...I've been "pickin' atcha" simply because I know that even if you were asking me to change my posting style, I would not, so, it's really "no big" for me...At least today anyway...lol...Again, it's Friday, I'm in a GREAT mood...It's "all good in da hood" and everthing...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What I believe is being said here is that even though you are stating things as "your opinion", it really does *appear* that it is a passive agressive attempt to do what you used to do in this regard-control others-I know that you are saying that isn't your intent, but seriously it does honestly look that way-no lie...Kinda throws this old issue of yours back on the fire, kwim? And between you and me, I gotta tell ya that if I were in your shoes, this is the LAST thread that I would want to discuss this kind of issue on...You end up getting linked to folks that *appear* to have a pro affair agenda...You've already walked that road with IWRA/Sarie/BlessedTime, and I don't believe that you liked it at all, understandably...Anyway, I'm just giving you my opinion and my intent in doing so is not to tick you off...I'm just giving you the brass tacks on what it looks like...

Again, no worries from my side of the fence neighbor! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. Owl, I really like your posts and truly feel that you offer lots of wonderful help here...the posting style "stuff" and what it creates is the only "problem" that I believe I've ever had with ya...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Heehhee, bwaaahaahahaha, hoo…

I’m sorry, keepmovn, I can’t help myself. That is a very hilarious post.

This board has no leaders.

No official spokespersons except the Harleys.

No rules except TOS.

No enforcers except the mods.

No technical performance measures at all.

The rest is speculation and perception.

I do have a question though. Are you e-stalking Mel? Not that I worry about her, you understand. Just curious.

Hah, it is to laugh.

I see venting is good your your soul too.


PS: Actually, I could be persuaded to follow Mel and a handful of others here to just about anywhere, except into the loo. But that's just me - and I know who I am.

Listen ........I've have HAD it with your ATTACKS on MelodyLane...She has helped COUNTLESS folks on this forum, Mr. W and I included...She's here almost DAILY and literally "hand holds" people through this hellish process...You just have NO idea...You've NEVER helped one single soul here...You know NOTHING about MB principles and instead come here either spouting venom at those who do, or blathering on about your ridiculous "philosophies"...If you know so much, then start your OWN website and spread your .... there...I guarantee you that MelodyLane will have NO USE whatsoever for such a ridiculous joke of a site should you start one...So HEY, Good News...You'll be spared of having to read anything that she posts and perhaps you'll be inspired to stay there and we'll all be THRILLED not to have to deal with your baloney-PROBLEM SOLVED...To borrow a phrase from our friends from across the pond, "Bugger Off" LOSER!!!

Very Sincerely, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

KMF... while Mrs. W and Mel can do an adequate job handling the likes of you... I just wanted to let you know in my book you are nothing but a big *****! I know this will get edited... but hopefully YOU get the message first.

Dang it. Can we not have the discussion without name calling and finger pointing? In spite of all the side attacks and all the dredging up of old attitudes and old grudges, this discussion IS important.

Can we not be civil about it?

Larry

Yay, Mrs. W! You go, girl!

I wasn't gonna get in on this, but am I sure glad that you did!!

Didja see that he got edited again?!?!?

But just out of curiosity, WHY is everyone gettin' so worked up over this troll? He has 129 posts, and has been here for 2.5 years or so...and then starts spouting stuff like "Mel has only helped 10% of the marriages that come here" ~ how in the world would he know that? Or would ANYONE know that? hmmmm....somthing smells fishy to me....anyone else?

ETA: even though I HATE that word, MEDC ~ bwahahahahahaha!!! I actually LOL at that one!!