Shameless bump because I will be talking to WW in a couple of hours....

NW74

What gives you the suspicion? I am curious for my own reasons.

I would wait until she is home and discuss it in person for same reasons you mentioned - nonverbal clues.

The emails I found on her computer where they went back and forth about missing each other like 2 12th graders after the Prom Night themed dinner where everyone was dolled up - the fact that when she returned from the trip she moved to a seperate bedroom - until then we were in the same bed.

And she will not hug, hold my hand or kiss me since she returned from the trip.

I am starting to really worry....

NW74

NW74,

Why would you ask a known liar and expect a truthful answer?


...On ANYTHING...

Snooping is still your best weapon for finding out the truth.

And FWIW, MC will likely have little in the way of positive results until NC is real and she has completed withdrawal. Remember that NC means NO contact, as in, none, zero, zip, zilch, nada, nyet! Any contact at all and the fantasy continues. This includes phone, email, 15 seconds to duck behind a wall while passing in the hall at work...

You have the right idea. Think of it as two love struck 12th graders trying to beat the system. Your job is to stop their actions, keep them apart and make yourself more attractive to WW to boot. All of this has to happen without love busters; no DJs, no AOs.


Mark

NW74,

Earlier in this thread Mark offered to help you in person.

Take it!

He is the man...
with the plan...
A & B...
(hopefully not D!)

Ace

I know - it is just that she is W way more often than WW with me - I am still too trusting, I know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Well, she asked to go to joint, I did not, so I figured I would go - it has really been about me mostly anyways, which I expect - if/when she committs to fixing our marriage, it will obviously be different.

Luckily it is a long distance EA, so no worries about passing in the hall - I am in contact with OMW and she tells me when and where he travels. Unfortunately, since they work together, they have email I cannot monitor. She will not quit her job - obviously, if we go to recovery leaving the job will be the first thing I ask her to do.


That is what I am doing now - did you see my two questions above -

A) I am still in Plan A - I no longer say I love you, but I began placing notes wishing her a good day in different places (her purse, her car, etc.) I also began texting/emailing her a compliment once per day - nothing heavy, something like "I like the sound of your voice."

She has said it makes her feel bad because she does not want to send me the same messages. So I am torn - I want to continue to tell her these things without saying I love you (she knows I still do), but I also want to respect her wishes of not feeling comfortable - Open and Honest, Admiration and Affection are 3 of her top 5 ENs.

b) Is it ok to email/text her the following message:

WW,

I just want you to know that I love my family with all of my heart, and will do whatever you need and whatever it takes to keep us together.

I am sorry it took almost losing my family to realize how much my family means to me.

BH

Or should I wait until we are in recovery to tell her this (she still is trying to figure out if she wants to stay married)

Thanks again for your help!

NW74

NW74,

You don't have to stop saying ILY during Plan A, just avoid saying it over and over. She does need to know that you still love her. Plan A is showing her that by your actions rather than merely words.

As for the text message...

I don't know if it would hurt or help. Have you made it clear already that this is your position, not just by saying so, but by actions as well? What purpose do you hope to fulfill by sending it to her? Do you feel that reminding her will prevent her from doing anything you would not like? Are you trying to appease some need in yourself by telling her this?

You have no control over her feelings or actions, only your own. The hardest part of Plan A IMO is to meet her needs and show her love while your own feelings do not reflect what you are doing.

Do you know for certain that there has been NC? Be sure she does not talk to him, email him, SMS to and from him, write to him or he to her. Can you verify that independently of what she says? Withdrawal takes time, unfortunately and until she has completed it, she will give very little to the M. Then it will only be a minor effort until she begins to reconnect with you.

Do not push for a commitment from her. Do not force the issue of her making a decision. If you do this too soon, her decision will not be what you are looking for. I know this sounds like manipulation, but if you want to save your M, you have to make her believe that staying will be a good thing. It will be your actions that cause this to happen, not pressure from you to make up her mind.

As for the MC that she suggested...

She likely went into MC with the intent of it proving that the M is beyond hope and she is justified in ending it. She can tell herself and others that she tried to save the marriage and that it just didn't work. This is why Dr Harley does not recommend MC until a commitment to stay married has been made. Until then, she is only using it for further justification.

IMO, this is why it is all about you right now. She is still in a fogged out WS condition and is attempting to paint you as the bad guy so that her own actions are justifiable in her own eyes and she can tell her friends and family that the demise of the M was not her fault.

Is your MC a PRO-marriage MC? Does he know of Dr Harley's methods and theories? Is he at least willing to look at them?

Has she admitted the A to the MC?

Can you spring for a session, even alone, with Steve Harley or maybe call into Dr Harley's radio show?

Just some ideas for you...

Mark

NW74,

How's it going?

Ace

Ok - well, real good yet real bad. Had an amazing IC session this morning - realized that I am WAYYYY to judgemental and that I am judgemental when I do not even realize I am.
I really need to learn how to see when I am judging - I need to learn to differenciate between opinions and judgement - I am sure her LB was low because of how many unintentional DJs I have given her over time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am also too controling - I need to learn to step back and realize when the Controling NW74 comes out of his cave - stupid childhood - how I blame theee!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do not mind having my flaws pointed out to me as I want to improve for MYSELF, not my WW.

But the best part of the session was my therapist convinced me that I am not all to blame. For the first time, I HONESTLY feel this way - she explained it very well to me, to the point where I completely believe it - not one of those, yeah that makes sense but 5 minutes later you are back to your old self way.

The bad part is that I think accepting that it was not just my fault has seemed to vault me from Denial to Anger in Grief Recovery <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am PISSED - thinking of her giving her her #, talking to him and ignoring me, doing who knows what in April when she told me he was coming in May - makes me sick to my stomach!!!!

I am, for the first time, really considering if this is worth it - this song and dance of trying to placate her when we were BOTH at fault yet she chose to cheat and I did not - I am VERY frustrated right now!

She comes home tomorrow - should be interesting - no LBs, I promise, but I do not know how well I can Plan A - I think I should pop some Xanax and think rationally tonight! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

NW74

NW74,

Yep, that sounds like anger phase to me....

When all this started for me, so many voices said, "She did this because you..."

It took me over a month to understand that it was really a case of "You did this AND she did what she did" Both were wrong in some regard, but it wasn't what I did that led her to make her choice. Realizing that I didn't have to own that part of it became very freeing for me.

Yep, I was still really p'd off about it and I had to struggle to prevent AOs. But you eventually get passed the anger, or should and must if you are to recover.

It IS a lot of work. It is NOT fair. It sometimes feels like it isn't worth the effort, but that is because of the loss of trust and that CAN be rebuilt once she begins to work on it.

Remember, that while it is true that she lied, misled you and broke her vows, it is possible for her to come to an understanding of what actually happened and how she allowed it and make corrections in the way she makes choices in the future to prevent it from recurring.

Once she gets through withdrawal and starts to reconnect to you, she can begin to give back a bit and it will become easier for you to deal with. Hopefully she will also reach a point where she will become transparent enough that the trust will start to return as well.

Hang in there. You are only at the starting line and there will be good days, bad days and days that will make you feel homicidal, but even when there are two steps forward and one back, you are making progress. Net forward movement is the goal, not jumping to the end from the beginning.

Cowboy up!

Mark

Thought of something else to add...

When she gets home:

Greet her warmly.
Ask how her trip was.
Help her with her bags.
Take care of some little thing for her so she can spend a few minutes with DS right away.

Do NOT ask about OM.
Do NOT press her to "make up her mind."
Do NOT start discussions about the A.
Do NOT show disappointment if she does not seem to be responding to you as you would like.

Mark

Thank you so much for your support Mark - you are truly helping me immensely!

I woke up this morning pissed off again - I keep thinking about all the lies and the fact SHE does not know if SHE wants to be married to ME!!!

After reading all the stories on MB and talking to 2 friends who both survived an affair and stayed married to their BS (and who BOTH recommend I not try to save the marriage, because both of them, in hindsight, said it was not worth the pain combined with the fact that neither of them trusts their spouse like they used to), I am debating if dealing with the pain now and hoping she wants to save the marriage, and if she does, then dealing with the pain of recovery, and if we do, dealing with the pain of having a different, less naive and innocent outlook on our married love is worth the effort.

I do love her - yet I really hate her now - thinking how all she had to do was tell me in no uncertain terms our marriage was dying, instead of bottling it up and finding someone else to fall in love with...

And then there is always the doubt and mistrust....last night she said she would call me before she went to bed - she did not. Why? Was she out drunk flirting with some coworkers? Was she with someone else? Was she on the phone with the OM?? Who knows, and that feeling of thinking my wife, MY WIFE, maybe cheating on me makes me sick to no end........and the fact I may think that the rest of my life with her makes me doubt this is worth it in the end.

Why bother subjecting myself to the pain when I could start over with someone new, who would appreciate me for who I am, want to be with me and in love with me, and who I could trust because THEY never cheated on ME!

*pity party done*

NW74

NW74,

Only you can decide if it is worth the effort and pain of recovery. Some people can move forward without knowing the outcome and others want guarantees before they will commit.

From my own perspective, having spent over 33 years with my wife, having memories of the good times and still recalling the hopes and dreams that I once had for an old age spent together, I came to the conclusion that , whether we stay married or not, I will not give up those dreams and memories without first doing everything that is within my power to save them. That is not to say that I will live my life unhappy or looking over my shoulder, second guessing my decisions and wondering what might have been if I had chosen to just give up, but until I have attempted to save my marriage, I am not willing to give up on it.

There are many things in my life that I might have done differently, but since on Monday morning the game on Sunday is always so clear and mistakes are so obvious, the result is still the same. It isn't avoiding mistakes, but learning from them that really matters, in my estimation. In marriage, mistakes mean that we hurt each other and the secret, for me, is learning to heal from those hurts instead of allowing them to become all consuming.

In order to heal, we must do specific things, in most cases. Some of those things themselves cause additional pain, but without them, a wound can only fester and become life threatening.

In my recent illness of this winter, I had two surgeries that took a lot of things from me, including my status as "that reliable guy" at work. I could have waited to see if my body would heal itself, and it had never let me down before, but it became clear that unless I was willing to make sacrifices and endure the pain of having a section of diseased skin cut away and then having another wound created for the purpose of closing the first one, I might never recover. I used all of my sick leave, all of my vacation and personal days and even had an additional week that I got no pay for. My plans for this summer had to be acrificed in order to save my life.

Restoration of relationships is never accomplished without pain. That is why we need to seek the help of others, including professionals in many circumstances. That is also why, when we know what needs to happen for healing to occur, it is up to us to take those steps.

Looking at marriage from the perspective of God's plan for it, for me, the decision was to endure the pain and attempt to heal my marriage. For me, the Bible begins with God building a dwelling place for man, followed by giving Man his wife. Adam's first reaction to the woman when he first saw her was, "This is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.." The passage goes on to say ,"and the two became one flesh."

The concept of one flesh suggests that what is right for one is right for both, since the two are no longer individuals, but a single entity. It also suggests that what hurts one damages the other as well.

The Bible also ends with a wedding, that of Christ coming for His bride, the Church, and in the middle of the Bible is the Song of Solomon, which is all about the wedding of a couple who long for and have hopes and dreams for each other.

Man was created for relationship with God and it was Man who broke that relationship. The rest of the the story is about God attempting to rebuild the relationship and reconcile Man to Himself. Along the way He gives examples of how He loves us. David sinned like any man, but God calls him "A man after mine own heart." Hosea was instructed to marry a woman of poor character who ran off with many different lovers. Hosea was instructed to redeem her and show her his love as a way of showing us what God was doing by redeeming us and continuing to show us His love in spite of our running after our own "gods" and doing things our own way.

So, for me, the choice is to attempt to save my marriage. Whether that happens or not is a decision my wife needs to make. I can only offer restoration, my wife must accept or reject it.

I do not say all of this in order to convert you or your wife, but only to give you the perspective from which I approach the issue. In the end, each person must make their own choices. Those choices are based on our own view of the world, which can be colored by what we ourselves have experienced. For me, my example of how I am to feel toward restoration of a relationship is based on my world-view, which I do believe to be the correct one and one I feel is patterned after the example God Himself has given.

In the end, you have to live with the choices you make. For me, it would be better to come to the end of my life and know that there was nothing that I could have done to save my marriage that I left undone and everything I could do was done. I don't think many would find themselves saying on their deathbed, "I wish I had done less and given up sooner."

If my marriage fails at this point, it will not be because I have chosen to stop doing what I believe is right. It may still end, even if I do all that I can to save it, but I will at least have tried and made the effort.

As for your marriage, though it looks bleak right now, it may be saved and be better than it was before, but only you have the power to make the decision as to how much work it is worth to you.

Sorry about the length of this. I get on a roll and have a hard time stopping sometimes.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mark