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The Marriage
During a brief marriage I began a passionate affair with my now WW. After about 6 months she revealed this to my XW. Feeling my new love was the real thing and I must not let it go I left my XW but felt guilty and still tender towards her - I returned and left twice more over the next 8 months before finally settling with my WW. During this time WW’s feelings for me lessened but she wanted a child, married or not, and I was there. We married and had another child, both terrific kids, a credit to her especially.
My WW was no longer demonstrative and sensual as she had been (it would be fair to say she seduced me that way, though I was willing because aspects of my XW’s behaviour made me think she couldn’t love me – I may have been wrong). Sex was rare and not much fun now but there was no welcome for my hugs or other signs of physical affection.
Soon after marrying I had a great business opportunity and, supported by WW, threw myself into it. The work was very stressful but creative and rewarding. I was successful, able to support WW without her working and ultimately to retire early – she made great use of her free time and still does. She wanted more help when the children were small but I did not have the stamina to make a good work-life balance. WW tried several times to “get through” to me but always chose a time when I was tired (i.e. in bed, ready for sleep) and I felt she was hitting me with my faults. I accepted these but always tried to get her to see hers, to take her share of the blame. The result was, nothing changed.
For the first 10 years of marriage I always offered a goodnight hug but was frozen out. WW says she saw it as an attempt to “use” her or grope her, but it wasn’t just a request for sex. Eventually I felt the tension created was too much and gave up – we had no sex and little physical contact after that.
WW complains (rightly) that I didn’t take the initiative to do things with or for her, she had to suggest activities, holidays, presents, etc. She insists that I needed to talk my way back into her affections but I found it hard to “chat” with her given the emotional distance between us. It is true that my background is intellectual and I can be a bit serious whilst she is light and vivacious (but not with me, though she doesn’t see this as a factor). It also affected me to some degree with mutual friends, especially in her company, but I think I was mildly depressed by what was happening. I may not be very outgoing but nowhere near as reserved as she perceives. These seem to be the LBs, or are they ENs? I’ve been a good provider, we see eye-to-eye on most things outside our emotional life, I supported her in the way we brought up our kids, I give her loads of freedom (too much?), I am not violent or angry but she says I seem to be on Planet Zog much of the time and has (rather unfairly) got friends to tell her they agree – but they are still friends with me and don’t avoid my company so I feel it’s an exaggeration. She is an attractive, sparkling even flirtatious lady with others so can be persuasive.
That’s the background – it seems best to state the problem we now have and the help I need in a separate posting.
[This thread copied from "Emotional Needs" forum on advice there - sorry to duplicate.]


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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The Affair and Aftermath
At the end of March WW told me she’d been having an affair. It had been going on for 6 years though they didn’t see each other all that often (the MOM lives 80 miles away). They have a shared hobby that sometimes took them away to events where they had an organisational role. When these required an overnight stay they would sleep together. However she believes it is principally an emotional affair. The MOM is chatty, wants to do things for her and fills an emotional gap in her life.
She says she doesn’t want to leave, she wants us to be housemates and carry on as before. Indeed she wouldn’t have told me had MOM’s wife not discovered the affair and threatened to tell me if they continued their hobby together. The next event was at her home club and she felt committed to support it – I persuaded OMW to let them go ahead (she was now threatening to tell our children) provided I attend too. I did this without a second thought because I wanted to support her, to be her champion. I have met the MOM also more recently to understand his situation directly (it confirms what WW told me). It seems he has wanted to leave his wife for many years, or at least to have more freedom if he stays (she is very clingy and demanding, like my XW was). He believes she is capable of suicide if he goes, therefore he hasn’t left and maybe never will. My WW thinks OMW may be a physical threat to her though MOM thinks this unlikely.
Meetings between them are now very difficult as the OMW seems to have a vice-like grip (she works full-time and he part-time so I’m not sure why it’s as hard as it seems). They are in frequent (almost daily) phone contact and they did meet last week to talk, with my knowledge – perhaps the first time they met alone since I was told. That seemed to give her a boost but it soon wore off, in fact she seems less happy than before.
For the first 6 weeks from discovery I was frequently discussing the situation, our history, etc. She felt browbeaten and I admit taking the lion’s share of “air time”. Since then I have said little – there’s not much more to say and it was counter-productive. Although initially there was some sympathy and engagement in the talking stage a joint counselling session and perhaps just going on too long seemed to end that. I told her how much I loved her, had always known I still loved her, and that my apparent coldness was the result of the rejection (and depression) I felt. Frankly I was afraid that anything I did was unlikely to match her needs. I told her how much I could change and wanted to change but she is sceptical and doesn’t really want me to change – classic withdrawal? I have attempted to be more cheerful and chatty, at least with friends (it can be hard with her at present). I am recording good things that happen to me every day and telling myself that I have a good life beyond my marriage. I am trying to fix things for us to do but she is so busy socially that too is hard, especially as I am cautious about swamping her with the new me.
So it’s not all hopeless. Sometimes she is cheerful with me and sometimes a bit sharp-tongued. She seems to feel entitled to do what she is doing in spite of wailing about not wanting to hurt “everybody”. I feel it’s emotional bullying. She’s got everything she wants: home, freedom, husband and lover (perhaps not enough of the latter) – for now! But she’s still not happy.
Zog
Me 59
Wife 58
Married 28 years
Son 28.5 years
Daughter 26 years
Children left home


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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Can you help me?
Reading other postings I guess you will say there are some signs that all is not yet lost. I am trying to be patient and to demonstrate that I’m a more sensitive, helpful, cheerful, affectionate husband than she’s known. It seems difficult to do much at the moment and any change may take a long time to seep in.
From the start I have been certain that I will not ultimately accept what she says she wants (“living together apart”) and I’m not certain that she really wants it. I think if the MOM were free she might still have an insurmountable problem breaking up her home (I know from past moves how hard she finds it). Often I feel I just want to get on with things, even to threaten her with all the unwelcome consequences of divorce. Certainly I don’t want this to drag on for years, I’d rather get it over with than face a split when I’m nearer 70 or live with this emotional stress forever. I keep thinking about when to implement Plan B or maybe a mini-Plan B – just leave a note and vanish for a few weeks.
I’d like to start a constructive dialogue – maybe ask her what NOW are the things I do (or don’t do) that annoy or disappoint her most. But in her current state there seems nothing I can do but be an absolute hero, resolutely cheerful, chatty, thoughtful, helpful without seeming false – and all while she resists having to rethink her opinion of me.
Please tell me what you think.


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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I note from Hopefuldad's thread (hi there, good luck!) that I should be disclosing my wife's affair now. I must have missed this part of Plan A when reading everything relevant I could find on the site. This was in fact an early reaction of mine because I wanted sympathy. But I felt it was unfair on my children to drag them into it unless they needed to be told. Also WW and I have discussed and agreed this, although I have drafted a note on what I would say to them if I had to, and agreed that too. To go ahead and disclose without warning, as recommended, seems wrong in these circumstances. Also I'm still not too happy about involving them in their parent's difficulties. I had thought of waiting until the Plan B stage if we get to that.
As to friends - I'm not sure why they would feel they should interfere. It's certainly a great opportunity for WW to convince them what a useless H I've been (note the "he's on Planet Zog" comment above, where she's had the reinforcement she wanted, she says).
OMW has disclosed but it hasn't helped in 12 months (she's known a lot longer than me) except that MOM's daughter, previously rather a daddy's girl, is now distant from him but his son is OK (counter to expectations apparently). Forcing disclosure to me may have helped her open a second front I guess. Perhaps I can find a way to introduce OMW to this site since I don't expect she's addressing her LBs.
How certain are members that disclosure helps?


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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Can I have your XW's email address? I want to be sure she knows about the A. She deserves to know what an idiot you really are.

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She seems to feel entitled to do what she is doing in spite of wailing about not wanting to hurt “everybody”.

You bought her baloney when you married her. You still buy her baloney. It is all about "her," and likely always will be. I haven't a clue how to help you because you enable who and what she is.

Larry

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OK Piojitos. You're right; I was young, immature and stupid and it looks like I haven't changed a lot. And I was an idiot too when I gave my XW my house (I paid for it from my money, saved before the marriage) in compensation, which helped her greatly when she immediately set up with another woman's husband - and they had kids! I choose well I know but I'm rather fond of this one in spite of everything.
Larry, yes it's a lot about her and "her terms" and I haven't helped things. So how do I stop enabling her - by disclosure? Is that your answer?
You guys are tough, hope your marriages are sorted.


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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I note from Hopefuldad's thread (hi there, good luck!) that I should be disclosing my wife's affair now.

Yes, disclosure does help. It brings the A out in the open, where it usually ends (busts the fantasy bubble).

In your case though, the A has gone on for 6 years, and disclosure may not be enough to end it. I suggest that you seriously question yourself as to whether or not you want to spend the rest of your life with a WW that cheated on you for 6 years. That's a lot of years stolen from your life by someone who evidently believes she's entitled to do so.


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you married your affair partner, right? And now you are concerned that she is a cheat??? Duh?
You abused your ex w with the way you treated her...
does it feel like you are getting what you have coming to you???
You and your wife.... and I hate to call her that in a way... are very immature for your advanced years. She has a lover.... no, he's a **** for her to use when she needs it...a lover is a good term... what they have and in many ways what you have... is nothing more than a sick, perverted lifestyle.
Exposure is a great tool. But to what end? To save this "marriage???" I find it difficult to offer any advice this will continue this charade.

Last edited by Justuss; 05/26/07 02:01 AM.
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The next event was at her home club and she felt committed to support it – I persuaded OMW to let them go ahead (she was now threatening to tell our children) provided I attend too. I did this without a second thought because I wanted to support her, to be her champion. I have met the MOM also more recently to understand his situation directly (it confirms what WW told me).

Why not let the married other man move into your bed and you move into the guest room? If the goal is to support the affair, that should earn you some brownie points. Do your clothes fit the OM?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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p.s. Do you think her love for the OM might be "the real thing?"


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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perhaps he can fill in and handle his wifes duties if she is unavailable to service her friend. This story is ridiculous!

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Guys, this might be an AM, but it's still a 28-year M. I think what ManFromZog needs at the moment is helpful advice, not sarcastic remarks to remind him of poor decisions he made 28 years ago.


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okay... if I read this right...

you rode the fence between your ex w and your affair partner for a long time. You cheated and went back to your wife three times.... leaving each time to be with your A partner. Eventually you settled for true love with your affiar partner... leaving your wife for good.
The affair partner cooled on you... but she wanted a baby so you ************ You then eventually married her... she wanted another bay...you obliged...even though your relationship was rocky at best.

Now your wife is *********another man and YOU help her do so by not lifting a finger to help stop this. All the while you are concerned that exposure is not fair to your wife???

You asked for opinions on what people think.

Mark me down for *************your wife being a ****.... and for your kids getting last place in the parent sweepstakes.

Harsh....yep....true...yep.

Last edited by Justuss; 05/26/07 02:03 AM.
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manfrom...

you stand at a great crossroad in your life....

you stand to make the choice for the first time in your adult life...

DOES MARRAIGE HOLD GREAT SACRADE MEANING ON THIS EARTH....

That is the question you must answer first....

and then move from here...

if your answer is no ...then this site...

marriageBUILDERS can not help you...sadly...

for what is at the core is that marriage has meaning....

doesn't mean all marriages are should and will be salvaged....

not at all...

but what the outcome can be is a person who holds great faith in certain truths....

that is if you believe these truths in the first place...

you have not ever yet taken your vows seriously...to hold sacred meaning.....

and the time has come to decide...

you decide...

then you move from there.....

can this marriage be saved...

well lets hope for even better...
lets hope for TWO people for the first time...living their vows to one another...

to love
to honor
and
to cherish.....

marriage is work....but the ground rules are basic and simple....

what say you my very very very up to now lost friend....

ARK^^

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I am sorry but hey the KARMA BUS just landed at your house.

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No offense is intended, but I feel I've stumbled into a twilight zone AA meeting, where when the newbie stands up, he's greeted by an angry chorus of "you're an alcoholic!", instead of "welcome".

Shoot, we all have hangups, or we wouldn't have had the misfortune of needing MBing. But isn't the important thing to discover that about ourselves, and to try to fix that? He can't go back and fix his previous M. But he wants to know if he can salvage this one. (Should he want to after a 6 year A? That's still his decision to try, isn't it?)

Yes, expose, but don't do so vengefully. You may want to post your "exposure" to-do's and the planned "convo" for advice on how to come across as someone who wants to reconcile the M. Especially if you have history of not being there for her. You're going to have to work hard to plead your case and not look like a fanatic, but the result could be worth it. You may win allies without alienating her peers. Who do you tell? People who influence her decisions. People who will be emotionally affected by her choice. Her friends. Her parents. Her pastor. Her hobby enthusiasts. The other man's wife (how much does she know?). Your kids? I don't know their ages or their level of comprehension. I certainly would have reservations. I think better people than I can advise you on that level of exposure.

But stop being a pushover. You married her. She married you. It was a mutual choice to forgo all others until death do you part. Stop worrying about how hard M is when you are in a state of confliction (which seems to be a pattern, considering your history). Do you think everyone who stays together has it "easier"? No. It can be grueling, miserable, painful work. But the reward is a true partner who knows you intimately (and I mean more than just SF, although that's important!) and a companion for life. A stable home for your children. A financial future that you WILL NOT be capable of if you D. At least, that's what I hear are the benefits of a long-lasting M. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Why in the world would you be so agreeable to her A? Your passive nature concerns me that you are also thinking of the benefits of being single again. Why put yourself through this, again. This is a pattern. YOU need to break out of this pattern. If you want to fall for your WW again, it is possible. It is entirely possible to recapture that feeling. Don't give up. Stand up for yourself and your M. Own your mistakes, and start meeting your WW's needs. Own your boundaries and stop letting it be so easy for her to play to your fears. If you continue the current path, odds are good you WILL lose her. You're just easing the transition.

Plan A. And Plan B. Maybe you need a short plan A due to the longevity of the A, followed by a swift and complete plan B. Let her know how good it could be, that you ARE changing and CAN meet her needs, and go dark.

There's much you can try, if your really want this. But do you? How committed are you? Are you ready for individual counseling? B/C it sounds like you may benefit from it. And essentially, a better person is a better partner. Either in this M or the next. Please consider your options carefully.

Last edited by chobbs; 05/21/07 11:54 AM.
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Well, what a lot of tough ****** there are here. Self-righteous ones too. Yes, I've made a lot of mistakes and trashed a previous marriage before it had really started (no way that would have happened if I'd had kids). But I do love my wife. I am not a doormat like some of you seem to think. I've spent 6 weeks railing and 2 trying to be calm and get my side of the relationship in order. I could go wild and trash what's left of my marriage but that's not what I want and, in spite of everything, not what I think I deserve. I have been in many ways a good husband and father.
I am not condoning WW's affair and will not stand by for ever. My instinct is to act decisively now but reflection and the general theme here suggests I might at least try establishing a few credits first. I'm trying to think how long I can give it. In the meantime the affair is emotional, not physical, and there are some signs it might be broken.
If you want to be abusive I can't stop you. If you want to help please do, even if your message is tough.


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I can't take this...

manfrom this is my last try...I said nothing to you that was self rightous or judgemental..

I am sincerely asking you if you have decided to fight for your marriage....

that's my questions that's what it was the first time...

cause I'm not going to waste time if you aren't....

it's time to man-up to your wife with serious serious boundaries...

about marriage
about the children
about the other man...

but if you are even for a second continue to condone contact between her and him...then I can't help you....

I am very very serious about neither of you ever really living a life of taking vows seriously....

that's not a judgement that's a fact...and one that will be used as a weapon against you...which is why you have to FIRST decide to fight the good fight...

no matter how many times your past gets thrown from you..

you need to establish a mantra of that was then this is the new me...

take me...
or leave me...

do you understand what I am saying...

ARK

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Two times on this board I have gottn caught up in posters stories where they have left a previous wife for their affair partner and then got dished the same. Both times the men because of guilt put up with too much for too long. One to the point of suicide, I think.

What Ark says is very true for married affair partners.

Quote
I am very very serious about neither of you ever really living a life of taking vows seriously....

that's not a judgement that's a fact...and one that will be used as a weapon against you...which is why you have to FIRST decide to fight the good fight...

no matter how many times your past gets thrown from you..

you need to establish a mantra of that was then this is the new me...

take me...
or leave me...

do you understand what I am saying...


What I would like to add and or reiterate is that because you have lived a life without integrity, it is hard to identify what is with or without integrity, especially to what you will allow to be done to you and to your marriage.

Listen very closely to Ark.

She is spot on in my opinion.

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