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Thanks Chobbs - posted my last before your message appeared. I have tried counselling, solo and joint and with 2 counsellors but I'm not sure it's been very helpful. Relate is the main organisation for this in UK (formerly Marriage Guidance Council) and I'm not sure we have the same level of choice as you seem to have in the US. Relate don't seem committed to preserving marriages and simply reflect back what you tell them, like the average business consultant.
On reflection it seems I should have let it hit the fan rather than enable the "home club" event to continue. A short Plan A is what I was thinking.


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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I understand your second post better ArK. Yes I want to save my marriage, but not at any cost. Yes I'm frightened but only of not doing the right thing to save my marriage if it can be saved. Confronting my wife is not the problem it's just a question of whether I need to show her that I will not continue the same way if she will commit to me too.


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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I’d like to start a constructive dialogue – maybe ask her what NOW are the things I do (or don’t do) that annoy or disappoint her most. But in her current state there seems nothing I can do but be an absolute hero, resolutely cheerful, chatty, thoughtful, helpful without seeming false – and all while she resists having to rethink her opinion of me.
Please tell me what you think.


First of all understand that her moods have very, very little to do with you, if anything at all.

Second understand that affairees rewrite history, they justify, blame, rationalize what they are doing. Everything she/he says about the OM's wife is probably a bunch of hogwash.

Get her (om's wife) to read about Plan A, so she doesn't sabotage your plans with hysterics and love busters. You guys will want the affair partners love busting each other. You do not want them united against you and his wife. You want thenm to start to go at each other.

Get the wife's help. Work together at exposure if possible.

Last edited by weaver; 05/21/07 01:13 PM.
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no one should ever want to save their marriage at any cost....

too dear...to precious a price...

manfrom...

you must tell your wife that you are NOT willing to live in a triangle...
that you will not and do not envision a marriage with third parties....
that you deserve better
she deserves better

and that you will not actively participate and or condone activities that assist her in seeing the OM...

financially
emotionally..

that's a boundary..
YOUR boundary....

also you must make it clear that you will actively participate nor allow the children access to him...

and that you strongly find it disagreeable for to have any access to his children...

they deserve better
they demand and require a safe adult in their lives....

children suffer and are exposed to more than enough garbage in the world naturally...and there for it is the grownup's job who brought them here to do allll they can to never ever undermine and bring on devastation to roost all because we adults want our selfish whims placated....

I am advising you to prepare to seek FULL custody ....
that this should be part of your plan A....

your children are at the point of being taught that dads are replacable...

that if and when they do not please our moms....moms can just go out and get a new one....

their dreams will become nightmares believing that if dads are so easily replaced by grownups who have alll the power in the world...so can they....

I know you are frightened but you must fight and face the fear of your past being thrown at you...

you must change your language....

have you ever apologized to your first wife.....

you may want to think about that one...

also you must start to grasp this very very difficult concept....

you do plan A ..
you fight for your marriage for a period of time...

without any form of committment from her....

you do it for the marriage...
for the down the road payoff....

you do NOT expect her to agree to work on anything...that's what recovery is for...

you are not in recovery..
you are in the throes of a spouse who is babbling and rewriting history to soothe her junky mind....

EXPECT NOTHING.......

ARK

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Good plan Weaver. I had though of writing to suggest she gets onto this site.


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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MFZ,

Somehow your sitch struck a chord with me. I am sorry about your situation, but I am harken by the fact that you seem to recognize your past mistakes, seem willing to learn, and, most importantly, seem ready to do what it takes to protect yourself, be a better person, and possibly save your M. I infer this last point from your statement that you are not willing to save your M at all cost. I think that is a great mindset to have.

Before I get involved, however, I want to confirm that you are willing to MAN UP in dealing with your sitch. I respectfully disagree, by the way, with the choice of your moniker, implying that you are a now a MAN. Given how you WW has walked all over you and your willingness to appease her so far, I would say that you are far from that…as of now. But that’s ok. The question for me is, are you ready to do what it takes to reclaim your self respect and live with dignity, whether or not your M is saved.

Let me know your thoughts,

God Bless.

Last edited by UVA; 05/21/07 02:09 PM.
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Now it's getting more helpful, thanks. Ark, my kids are adults and have left home - custody is not an issue of course. If it helps to tell them I will, if it simply burdens them I won't. They are both terrific, well-adjusted people and that didn't come from a marriage that was quite as bad as it seems. Sure we were emotionally apart but everything else was pretty good.
One thing I learnt from my divorce was NEVER to have an affair again and I won't consider it while still in this marriage. Pity WW didn't learn the same thing. XW and I agreed to have no contact whatever 30 years ago (a sort of Plan B+) so it would be unfair to do anything now. I set her up very well materially and I think she's had a good life with her second husband (though he was someone else's husband and father remember).
No way I will live in a 3-way/open marriage. It's the Plan A thing I'm trying to manage effectively now and I've only just found out about it. I will fight for my marriage for a while, I just don't know how long yet. How do you tell? Not too short to be pointless or too long to be indulgent. Perhaps weeks rather than months.
OK UVA. Sure I'm man enough to quit this marriage if I have to. I don't agree that I have simply let her walk all over me. I was wrong to dig her out of a hole with her club but I wasn't thinking that exposure might help (to people who don't know me but know and LIKE him - he's a charmer). Experience is a great teacher which is why I'm here - so I don't have to experience everything personally if I can learn from others.


Me FH 59 WW 58 Married 28 years Son 28.5 years Daughter 26 years Children no longer living at home
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Zog,

I sent you to this part of the site because the information you need is here. I also warned you that you were likely to face some harsh criticism about the beginnings of your marriage as well as a lack of sympathy for the situation you are now in.

All of that aside, I think if you stick this out, there is alot of help and experience on this forum that you desperately need to create a better future.

Yes, they are a tough crowd....but to some degree they've had to be or they wouldn't be effective. Some are more helpful than others....most want to help. Please sift through the ashes and pull out the jewels of wisdom.

Welcome to GQII...it's a tough forum, but it's the place you'll get the most help....even if some of the comments are painful.

Like I said....hang tight.

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STAR!!!

I am not tough....!!!!!

you're the one that's all prickly....

not me.....

I am glad the kids are grown...and are not in the middle of a parent that wants to hang with someone else.....

most of that stuff has to do with young kids in the home..so that is a small blessing

read here about plan A...

you most certainly can do it for a few months...

why the heck not....

plan A

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Last edited by princessmeggy; 05/21/07 02:46 PM.

Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists. Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Sure we were emotionally apart but everything else was pretty good.
This is sad. Can you imagine how painful it can be for a W in a M to be emotionally detached from the person you share your life with? That's not good. Far from it. I can't speak for your WW, but when I'm emotionally isolated, I feel utterly neglected. Lost. Vulnerable. Bear in mind, I'm not justifying what your WW is doing, but how you plan to remedy this...? You can only change you, but if your changes are temporary because you haven't internalized the reasons for change, it will be hard to stay on track...

Why didn't couseling work out? Sometimes, it is the messenger; and sometimes, we aren't ready to hear what we need to do to fix the problem. Do you understand? And have you tried individual couseling? Or just marriage counseling. (May I add, even though the outcome hasn't been productive yet, it is admirable that you have tried this route.)

What are the LB's you are contributing to your M's demise? Because they need to go first and foremost or any attempts to meet your WW's needs will be futile. What needs of your WW do you think you can start meeting?

When you say weeks vs months, are you talking about Plan A or D? You have some long-term work on yourself and your M ahead. Even if the M doesn't work out (not that I have that expectation, but it is important to see the benefits of self-improvement - again, internalizing the reason for change), you can improve the odds of your next R. I hope you have no illusions as to the time committment involved.

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I say because this is a long term affair and because it seems the waywards are operating under a great sense of entitlement, do a short but very good plan A, complete with big exposure (charming, hey? all the further he has to fall from exposure and all the more pressure to do right by his wife for the sake of his place in the community).

Make sure his wife is on board. If you guys can work together to break up the affair it will be that much better. She needs to do an even better Plan A, one that will knock his socks off. Classic fence sitter...wife is suicidal my [censored], he is probably more concerned with dollars and his place in the community at this point, but she can change that with a stellar Plan A. She can be every bit as attractive as your WW and attract him back. That is the ticket during Plan A...cause confusion in the mind of the wayward and show him what it could be like.

I say a short, but effective Plan A.

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STAR!!!

I am not tough....!!!!!

you're the one that's all prickly....

hehehehe....what kinda braille you talking? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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MFZ, like most others here at MB, I'm not at all happy with the way you and your wife got together in the first place. You deserve, IMHO, every criticism leveled at you above for wrecking one marriage in order to enter another. That said, all of that is 28 years in the past and however you found each other, you two have had a committed relationship for nearly three decades.

Mr. Wondering and I threw together a thread some time back about organizing a marital recovery. I've linked to it in my signature area below. I think it would make good reading for you and would perhaps give you somewhere to start. You also need to read Surviving An Affair by Dr. Willard Harley. While you wait for it to arrive, you can begin reading about Dr. Harley's program here on MB.

MFZ, I don’t know if you can salvage your marriage. There are (effectively) no children at home and Dr. Harley tells us those marriages are difficult to recover. Additionally, long-term affairs are very difficult to break up. However, if it’s possible, Dr. Harley’s principles give you the best chance of success...if his program can successfully be translated across cultural lines.

It will be a tremendous amount of work, MFZ. When you’ve read up on the program, let us know what you’re ready to do.

Good luck.

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I did a lot of stupid things 30 years ago and a few more recently so from my glass house I won't throw any stones. I've already lost a long reply to you so I'm going to do some short ones.

Read all the stuff at this site, it is deceptively simple but it works.

Stop keeping the other man's wife from causing trouble, let her cause all the grief that she wants to. Stop abetting your wife.

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2nd installment (if I try a long post, it doesn't work)

Go to see a lawyer, make sure that none of your funds/investments can be transfered or removed without your signature. Cancel any joint credit cards (this is symbolic as you will likely still be liable for your wife's debts).

Maybe you weren't a saint, but many marriages go through a period of emotional distance. Maybe it's a good thing that your wife gave you this wake up call, but it's now time for her to wake up.

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3rd installment

There is always a bottom line. Maybe they have thought of this as some grand passion, but it sounds like a ****buddy arrangement that they have. If it was really so great they would have done something 5 years ago. This just strokes the egos. If they really had to act on it, they would likely both be terrified. A once in a while lover is easy to glorify, a kicked out spouse is decidedly less glamourous.

She may not realize it but your wife is in a precarious position. Fortunately for her you still love her, you need to demonstrate to her the value of that love.

Good luck

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I wasn't being prickly with you Ark but with some of the others who were just angry and unhelpful (people telling me not to bother, I wasn't a man anyway, I deserved what I got, stuff like that). I didn't really follow your 1st post but the others are really useful - thanks for taking the time.
Effectively I started a sort of Plan A 9 days ago but only found MB 2 days ago. Before that was doing all the talking, analysing, crying and generally grinding her down, convincing her she didn't belong with me I expect. Now I'm thinking about me, how to be cheerful, make a happier home and friendships, taking chances on things she might just like, and generally lightening up. It's working for me, I've only had one really low moment in that time instead of most days for the previous 6 weeks.
My Plan A needs refinement but I'm getting in the swing of it. The disclosure bit in particular is new because I've just learned about it here. I haven't come to terms yet with how it might help in my circumstances. OMW has told everyone in her community and family but that's in a far-away town, there's nothing I can add. I don't think our friends will apply pressure on her, ditto her hobby friends (in this part of England our culture may be different from US - or I may be wrong). Perhaps I'll try the very closest ones - she has disclosed to a couple of our friends already (the female halves). I think it just gives her their sympathy - perhaps I should tell them my point of view. At our age we have no close family except our adult children and it may be time to tell them. I'm definitely not frightened to do so , I just don't want to use them unless they can actually help - by the way MOM's children haven't helped their parents in the year they've known.
As far as I know so far my LBs are that I wasn't chatty and light-hearted enough for her taste and didn't buy/do/suggest things for her, I just seemed to be somewhere else (on Zog). I need to see if there's anything else but I'm trying to address those, hard though it is under these conditions.
Weaver, I'll try to get OMW onto her own Plan A. Hope she'll try it.
Longhorn, there's so much to read here. Thanks for your links, which I've read. It's all good stuff.
Hanora, thanks. I didn't want to involve lawyers but think you are right. Somewhere (I think in one of Ark's links) it advises that Plan B should involve Her moving out. That would be fair and most effective but I can't see that I could force her to do that. And you're right about finances I was thinking about that too. It's tricky because she owns half of our business (and half of my pension under English law).
Honora, your post 3 is exactly right, I'm sure*. My plan was to force her to choose as soon as I'd had a chance to show her I was sincere about changing our relationship. I just wish I could do that in a weekend or two. [* "I'm sure" is a wonderful phrase in English isn't it? It also implies the opposite].

Last edited by ManFromZog; 05/21/07 05:08 PM.

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Guys, this might be an AM, but it's still a 28-year M. I think what ManFromZog needs at the moment is helpful advice, not sarcastic remarks to remind him of poor decisions he made 28 years ago.

I'm confused - which affair are we talking about and which one are we busting up???


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MFZ,

Dude, you can't force her to do anything! Plan A has nothing to do with demanding a commitment from the WS. It has everything to do with changing what you have control over and that is YOU!

Meet her ENs. Show her what being married to you can be like. Do the same things that got her to fall in love with you the first time. Do it without any expectation of receiving anything in return.

At the same time do nothing that will enable the A. Don't pay for it. Don't make it easy for her to continue it. Don't avoid making it hard on her and OM to get together.

Avoid any attempt to get a promise from her to work on the marriage from her until the A has ended! The time to fix things is in recovery and unfortunately, that is quite a way off as of yet.

Mark

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