Another AFFAIR MARRIAGE on MB...Wow, this is just an epidemic lately, eh? It amazes me that someone in such a ?"marriage"? will come to this venue, which is chocked full of the victims of infidelity, and actually ask for help...I see that as VERY CRUEL and VERY ENTITLED...

JMHO...

Mrs. W

I swear that Mrs. W and I are not in cahoots or even corresponding, but I do agree with her.

My dad and step mom have been in an affair marriage for 26 years, my FIL and step MIL for 22 years - they are still affair marriages and what goes around comes around.

With so many people here hurting, it seems unfair to them.

Maybe they could start a section where you could post if you are trying to save an affair marriage- that way those trying to save a marriage wrecked by an affair would be free from accidentally clicking on the thread and being hurt by reading it.

in case PK wants to accuse me of mysogeny....

Let me be completely clear and blunt

anyone who helps someone in an affair marriage will quite happily help your WS and OP if they come here for help in the future while you and your children are abandoned.

Sorry, MiM ~


...but you are way off base here. He DOES need to remember, and ALL waywards need to remember, that the ramifications of their actions can go on and on...and haunt you AND those around you (his children, for one!!!) for decades. There are consequences to our actions. That is they way God has set it up.

Waywards forget that it is not all about them...that their actions will affect many generations. This is a perfect example.

Oh yeah, I forgot this...good job, Big K ~ you hit the nail right on the head.

SAA arrived this morning and I have read the first 5 chapters in one go. The main marriage/affair story (Sue’s and Jon’s) is amazingly like ours. I admit I was a bit reluctant to get the book, I was here getting the key points anyway plus feedback from others involved in similar situations – what more did I need?
Also I’m a Brit and there’s a slight American flavour that made me reluctant. No offence guys, I’m not anti-American; it’s just that old thing about being divided by a common language! “Love Busters” for example; the meaning’s clear (US-English can be wonderfully simple and direct), it’s just not English-English. And all these abbreviations I have to look up constantly. But the book is great and the Harleys have done well to write in a more international way.
Well, that’s beside the point. I’m glad I got the book. The question now is whether (or when?) to share it with WW (hah, hah). If I do so now, assuming she agrees to read it, she’s going to know I’m trying (struggling) with Plan A and there’s a threatened Plan B down the road. Is it good that she knows that, does it lessen the power of the process? On the other hand, by recognising the parallels with Sue and Jon (assuming she does) perhaps it will help her to see how “normal” her story is, and how destruction to herself, to me and everyone.
I probably know the answers but please be generous with yours. I’m not walking upright yet and need a hand.

Not sure why some of you bother to reply – are you trying to help me or yourselves? Hope you feel better anyway.
Sure, I made a big mistake 30 years ago but I at least learnt something from it and would NEVER have repeated it knowing the pain and damage it caused all round. Guess I didn’t learn enough to prevent this happening and wonder how many chances one gets.

************************************************************************************EDIT********************************************************************perhaps you have learned nothing since your entitled affair days since they never, in fact, stopped. The point is...many people are offended by the very presence of an affair marriage on this site. Imagine someone that just found out about an affair in their legitimate marriage and they come here and click on your thread... think that might cause them a problem?

Around here nobody gets any chances at all, trust me. If you aren't a perfect, dyed-in-the-wool, first-and-only spouse and your relationship doesn't fit the criteria of being "good enough" for this community you're gonna get blasted, no matter how long ago your other life was.

I know.

I once made the fatal error of admitting that I began dating my current WH before his divorce was legally finalized. Of course, it's a topic of constant debate on the Divorcing/Divorced board if people should date before their divorces are legally final (and some here choose to do it) but it's also normal here for those who post to hold others to a super-human higher standard.

You're just going to have to get used to that dichotomy if you are going to continue to post.

people don't get nailed for having divorced and remarried....there are lots of those here. What they get nailed about are affair marriages. I personally think it is okay to date while awaiting the judges signature on the paperwork... it is a formality as far as I am concerned. But there are limits...such as if they were living together when you meet and start a relationship.... that is an affair IMO.

MFZ,

I'm starting to see a very nasty trend happening to you on this thread. Sorry you find yourself being attacked. Many people don't see that you get off just because you committed your A some 30 years ago.

It's a hard thing to do ... to forgive someone for doing something that many consider one of the most cruel things a person can do. I know I have had a tough time forgiving one of my brothers for his A, for D'ing is 1st W who our family loves very much and for marrying his A partner. In his case I think leaving his W was probably for the best but I sure wish he wouldn't have made the mistake of having that A. What's done is done and so I'm choosing to move on from there.

Me, I see you made a mistake, MFZ, and are trying hard not to make a different mistake this time. Good for you for being more mature about your choices this time.

Please remember there is plenty of help here for you and despite others believing you don't belong you have a place here, somewhere. You are as entitled to be here as anyone else that finds themselves here. After all this is a marriage building site not a site for first time marriage non-wayward partners only.

I would like to ask some questions. It's well documented that cheating spouses are more prone to cheat again. The percentages of A partner marriages actually lasting are staggeringly low.

So ... what makes you think your W will someday commit herself to being faithful? She's shown what her natural tendency is when things don't turn out like she'd hoped. What makes you think she will eventually invest in this one and not commit adultery again? Has she made some comment that she thinks infidelity is a choice she wishes she wouldn't make?

MFZ,

I am fine with your presence on this site. The purpose that most of us are here is to understand what we have been through, how to move forward, and how to prevent this in the future. I believe that the more points of view we have, the clearer the picture gets. There are a lot of very bitter people on this site, which is understandable; however, until we get over our bitterness, we are not truly healed.

Big K....I know where you're coming from, but I'm not sure that everyone who helps a person whose obviously made poor choices, has blurred boundaries about right and wrong or would aid and abet unethical behavior. In fact, I think most people would not. It seems like an example of an inductive fallacy. I have a friend of mine who teaches the bible in one of the local prisons. That doesn't mean she would help any of them commit a crime or that she supports criminal behavior. An inductive fallacy concerning that situation might proceed in this way:

People who help criminals are criminals themselves.
Susan reads the bible to men in jail.
Therefore Susan is a criminal.

I think the "kind" of help is relevent....and on this forum....the kind of "help" that any affair marriage is likely to get will include a reality check about the past and it's effect on the present.

A man I know mentors troubled boys....but he isn't "troubled" himself. The actions of these boys are a large portion of the reason they need mentoring. They need a new "compass". I know that Dr. Harley counsels folks whose marriages had unethical beginnings....but I know he wouldn't help a WS to remain wayward or help an OP destroy a marriage, and neither would the people on this forum.

In MIMs situation....someone said the "karma bus" just arrived....and that's a very true statement. The tragic consequences of affairs are built right into the system and it's really clear in this situation....that what "goes around, comes around". The question is where does he go from here? What can he learn? How can this destructive cycle end so that we stop passing down the suffering and the legacy of affairs to our children?

I think it's very enlightening and validating for BSs to see by example that even after all this time....there is no escaping the the reality of affairs. It actually affirms all the things we know about the dismal success of affair marriages....even those that last a long time....because their foundation was corrupted from the start.

We can attempt to chase off anyone who comes here in an affair marriage, and we can label anyone who dares to speak them as corrupted too....but I can think of no better place for someone in an affair marriage to get a dose of reality, come face to face with the pain they've caused both others and themselves, or find a new compass for the future....than this place.

yep...and there are a lot of insensitive ***** too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Thank you losinit, I understand what you are saying. And MrA too.
It's hard to answer your question Mr A. In early talks after the revelation she admitted that she might be the kind of person that is always vulnerable to this but I'm certain she's not proud of herself or her behaviour. She came away from her first solo MC session with the message that she was entitled to happiness and that she needed time. She didn't pick up that she needed time APART from MOM which is what the same counsellor told me at a later solo session. I think this is the result of the "house style" at Relate - they just seem to ask how YOU feel and what YOU think you should do so I expect it was just a reflection of what she had expressed. I think it's had a damaging effect.
Nevertheless it's clear that W knows I am trying to do my best to overcome our problems and she tries to respond. She never goes to sleep or leaves the house without a goodnight/bye hug now. She smiles encouragement when she can but as her moods get lower she is less cocky about her "entitlement". I think she wishes she could respond to me more fully but of course she can't while the affair isn't over.

MK- not sure if yuo're trying to take a shot at me here, but just to be clear, I would include myself in the catagory of "bitter people". The only point I was trying to make is that anyone who is on this site that is here for help, or to help, can have something positive to add; een if it is what not to do.

MFZ, I deeply apologize for the rampant hashing of your 28 year marriage.

28 years, folks. Isn't that longer than the average marriage? 28 years of fidelity.

Whom are you to judge? We don't know what happened in the first marriage. All we know is that it didn't last as some, despite the best effort, don't; and this man made a regretable mistake before the marriage was dissolved. But it WAS dissolved. Ended. No more. Plan D. He isn't going back, to do so would be cruel. Hasn't been back for 28 years.

Is it fair to be throwing stones when each and every one of us has faults, is a sinner, needs forgiveness from our spouses, our god, and our peers. Who here has never neglected your spouse, yelled at, was passively aggressive towards, or otherwise drove your spouse to some level of insanity (that includes the holier-than-thou clause, the codependant, the jealous, the work-a-holic, the big spender, the EAee, the lier, the addict, the so-called frigid, the inattention to personal beauty, the controlling, the independantly inclined, etc). Maybe you are the BS, and you are angry. Maybe you are the WW spouse, and you are bitter. But this man did not cause your pain. He's only triggering your fears of what can happen when our abuse, neglect, or otherwise poor choice goes too far for too long.

28 years, affair free. Children.

If his ExW still pines for him during his 28 year M, that's not love. That's a psychological problem. We are doing her no harm by helping MFZ heal his current, 28 year M, with children (can we say that they won't be affected, even if they are grown? I would bet if you ask them, they would say their parents' marriage is legitamite). This isn't fog. He recognizes the damage he did before, even if he didn't know enough to repair it. Again, we know nothing about the first W. It takes two to make, or break, a M. Perhaps she didn't want him back. Perhaps she spent all his money, or ate soup with her fingers. Does it matter? It is over.

Where is the grace this forum has been so generous with?

If this is so painful to watch, stop reading MFZ's thread. Be healthy.

Look into yourselves and see how you angrily responded to R/H. You'd prefer to be lied to...THIS IS YOUR CROSS TO BEAR, or put down. Would you prefer MFZ get a new account and ID, and return with a "similar" story, but leaving out how the marriage started? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

MFZ, you are a well-adjusted person to see through the bitter responses you have received to find the jewels that also have been contributed. You appear to have some good people in your corner. If you can stick it out, I think you will come out ahead.

Yikes, that's how your counseling works? It seems somewhat grounded, in helping one figure out what you want (and possibly letting the A burn out naturally), but there appears to be no common goal.

If it isn't cost prohibitive, I think calling the Harleys might produce more focused results.

MFZ, based on what you've stated I think that Chobbs suggestion is a very good one. This Relate community doesn't appear to be 'proactive' enough to help with the dangerous behaviors of an A. A wayward spouse stuck in the fog isn't something you can handle lightly. She needs to hear from someone how her current thinking is blurred by the allure of A that comes with very little strings attached.

The Harleys will go for the jugular ... so to speak.

Those of you who detest MFZ being here should just ignore his thread. Some of us, who believe that people can change and be forgiven, want to help him. Many of you, obviously, want to keep throwing stones at MFZ; so go ahead and do it and hopefully feel better about your sanctimonious selves, and then do the rest of us a favor and please leave his thread.

MFZ needs help. His family and his two children need assistance from those of us who want to assist him.

This is really simple. If you want to help him, stay and do (or observe). If you think MFZ is an unredeemable scumbag, say your peace if you feel the psychological urge to do so and ignore his thread or just observe.

None of us owns this site; just as you have a right to be here so does MFZ. To be sure, just like anyone else you do have a right to express yourselves. But there is no need to be a perennial pain in the [censored] about it.

We’ve heard your views.

Call us dopes, or whatever. Thanks for your opinions, and now we would like to get back to the business of helping a family with two children in need.

you can not educate an active WS
there is no point....

it goes in one ear....and out the other....

it will become a powerstruggle...

speak YOUR pain about contact.....

speak it clearly and directly......

you can read surviving an affair in front of her...but do not ask or read it to her....

how old are your children...?

how is your plan a going...

are you joyful..
engaging her in things she likes...
giving her small token of appreciation...

what is her current stand on exposure.....

does she know you have talked with the OM's wife...
you should tell her....

not too much.....
just that you two have talked.....

ARK