yeah, I am certain that his 28 year old son and 26 year old daughter are in need over this.

as far as being a perenial pain in the [censored]... at what point does an affair marriage become okay to stick in the face of a newly BS??? There have been new people that popped into another recent thread that clearly stated that they were offended by having an affair marriage supported here...how would you answer those people that stumble upon a thread and are harmed by the content???
Maybe if your wife decides to rut around with another and shows up here next week looking for a sympathetic reply it will be okay to let her know we support her affair....or is it just a matter of how much time passes... throw enough dirt (years) on something and it ceases to be offensive due to the passage of time.
Nope.

I have no problem with ManFromZog getting help-I do think he needs it...SOMEWHERE...It is the VENUE in which he chooses to do so that I take issue with...I don't understand how the WRONGNESS of his being HERE asking for help does not smack EVERYONE right in the middle of the forehead...This is an INFIDELITY SUPPORT GROUP forum manned and sought out by the VICTIMS of Infidelity...GQII is not a board run by professional objective counselors/coaches...Helping ManFromZog in this arena is the equivalent of counseling a rapist among rape victims...ManFromZog is NOT a VICTIM, rather he is a VOLUNTEER...I would think that HE would wish to exercise COMPASSION and seek counsel elsewhere...EVEN if it is in another section of Marriage Builders where those that wish to help him can, but NOT here in the TRENCHES of GQII...That was the solution when this came up here before...If ManFromZog is sincere in his desire to get HELP, then it should not bother him to receive that help in another section here, should it? I would suggest that either he or one of those that wish to help him, set up a thread perhaps somewhere like~~~> HERE... I believe that makes good compassionate and caring sense, doesn't it?

I would think that one of the lessons that ManFromZog would have learned is NOT to ignore the feelings of VICTIMS...If he hasn't learned that, then perhaps it is high time that he did...COMPASSION and EMPATHY for the VICTIMS and the VUNERABLE here should most definitely be considered, wouldn't you agree ManFromZog?

Mrs. W

MFZ,

I, also, urge you to call the Harleys. Why? Because I perceive you want clarity more than anything...which is great. And your WW's six-year affair seems to me to have been six years of cake eating. I'd like more info on how they really conducted their A, and why her opinion that's more an EA than a PA (it's both...you determine what you believe).

Clarity would call for seeing how much phone time they spent, email time, digging up all the traces of their A and having a really good look at it...stop taking any WW says as the truth...or MOM...because fog is the antithesis of truth. I promise you this...I've been there.

Next, when you're operating from facts, then expose to the hobby group...and here's why. I see you as choosing totally response-based actions. That's chasing your tail in life, a part of fantasy, because that makes all your choices dependent on others' possible reactions...of which you have no control nor influence, if they don't allow you to.

Your pain and heartbreak was not allowed as an influence on your WW's decision to have and continue her A. She's gotten away with it for a long time, IMO, and the fog has set in hard. Changing the process you make your choices from will break you out of it, which is clearing your half of the marriage. Evens the odds.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Would you consider exposure as an act of living from truth? Your WW chose to be unfaithful. Sharing this with the hobby group (both her location group and his), is not to manipulate...simply to share truth. You don't know what other marriages may benefit from you doing this. Your choice would be to act to your code...to live from truth, not fantasy...and that action supports your own code.

You made a boundary around yourself to not be unfaithful again. That's awesome. Did you apologize and own to your first wife what you did, what you learned and how you won't do it again? If not, it's worth doing even these decades later...for YOU...not based on her possible response.

You know your WW's mindset really well right now...you had 30 years ago...you now hold yourself to a higher (reality-based) standard...hold your WW to it, as well.

Plan A to me is being authentic...stating your truth and knowing it's separate from The Truth. It's putting into practice a lot of respect-filled choices, which you cannot do if you're looking to manipulate to get your WW to stop her A. Manipulation got you both here...I don't see where spending your time trying to determine what will or won't get her back into the marriage will gain you. If she does choose NC and to work on the marriage, and you believe you manipulated her with the plans, then what have you really gotten back?

However, doing the exact same things from the intent to be the man you've always been and didn't trust to be...acting authentically from your code and owning your stuff (and sharing it), will get you a whole new marriage, and if not, a whole new way to live. Win/Win.

Grow/Grow.

I also believe that Plan A is where you bring reality to the fog-stuck WS.

Since I see your WW as cake eating for years...I advise a very short, intense Plan A. Prepare now for Plan B...because you have met her ENs...I believe she loves you and doesn't want to lose you...and I want you to choose to believe this as well. Totally your choice...her feelings cannot be the truth...they are hers, and they change. Obviously, she acts from them, instead of the beliefs which they come from in her, about her. You are choosing to know you love, that it's a choice you make, even when you don't feel loving.

Grow with that. And tell your grown kids...because they are part of your lives. No burden there. If your WW was a drug addict, would that burden them? How is this different? They are adults and may have faced or will exactly what you did...like your first marriage...what would you advise them NOW?

Read The Carrot and The Stick of Plan A. Predetermine your progressive boundary enforcements and know that what you are choosing today can heal a lot from your whole life. In you. About you. Stay focused on what you have control over...yourself.

Would you also consider Alanon meetings as great support?

The way to freedom is through ownership, not blame. Remove blame from your marriage, break enmeshment and live from respect and truth. Then you won't spiral in looped thinking, act from fear-filled manipulation and double your pain of betrayal, because you're betraying yourself, as well.

You can do this. You are equal to everyone on the planet...up to you to choose that belief and live from it. I hope you will.

LA


Star - thank you for that inductive fallacy bit. I was bit hard by this belief in the other AM thread; felt taunted and condemned for it. I realized that I where I was hurting was in my own distrust of myself, when hit by posters I admired, because of my previous wayward state of mind...heck, couldn't trust me then, maybe I am an enabler of evil and don't realize it! Now I feel clear...acceptance is NOT approval...I'm here to advise others from my life experience and present beliefs. I respect posters here for help will choose from theirs...I am not powerful enough to condone their actions from the past, anymore than they, posting to me, condone mine.

Up to me...so thank you and lemme know if that's the essence of inductive fallacies...that what may appear to be approval is in fact, acceptance of the present, and our choice of actions in them.

LA

Mrs W....I really don't understand. You arrived here as a wayward spouse. Some of your first posts were about missing the OP terribly and all about your withdrawal....which was probably FAR more painful (excruciating really) for BSs on this board to listen to...than an affair that happened 28 years ago. Why was this board okay for you....but not this poster? I'm not attacking you....I'm very glad you came here and recovered your marriage. I just don't see how Zog's situation is any more painful for BSs to hear about then the withdrawal of a wayward spouse. I hope that Zog can find the same amount of good information that you did.

I have seen no signs of non-repentance from manfrom..
I have seen no long diatribes from him on how great it was to leave his first marriage and form this one...

it's done...

and he I you them..can't change a thing...

my suggestion...use that cute little ignore function at the bottom of the screen....

in fact the fact that he is fighting for his marriage is proof that he GETS how marriages should not be disposable...

I personally feel a lot of compassion...especially the most lost among us.....who WANT to CHANGE...

doesnt' get any better than that....

ARK

One thing I can suggest is to spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together. Your kids are out of the home now, and sometimes that is a difficult time for a mother. Also the 15 hours a week fun time together will afford more opportunities to talk about happy things. It sounds like conversation is one of her needs.

I would start inviting her to do things with you. If she agrees, good. If she doesn't, then go alone and do them, and then let her know how enjoyable it was. She might decide to join you.

Because Star*fish, helping a WS here is also helping a BS-It was on advice from Mr. W that I come and read at MB, after doing so, I chose to post...I'd be willing to bet that almost all of the BSs here who are fighting desperately to save their marriages would give anything to have their WS come here and post asking for help, don'cha'think?

Actually, my very first posts here were asking if my feelings for Mr. W would return...I was told YES, of course...And they did...And yes we did recover...We are a Marriage Builders Success Story...Btw, when I came here spouting fog I promptly and rightfully had my [censored] handed to me...That helped us to achieve our success, in fact...Personally, my definition of success is NOT helping an affair to continue in front VICTIMS, is it yours?

Mrs. W

THANK GOD...
that people that know me...

let alone STRANGERS
don't hold me to as being in the same mindset or person I was say 18-19 years ago...

THANK GOD>...

I was a selfish twit....

thank God thank God thank God...
seriously....

that I am NOT the same person I was then...
and those that know me...

KNOW I am NOT that person.....

should we sew the scarlett A right to his skin skipping it on the clothing...

how about a lovely tattoo....

ARK

****edit*****... between you and LA I want to puke. This is a simple issue and Mrs. W has done a great job pointing that out. You are just too clever with this stuff.

MEDC,

You made some good points. Let’s take a look. Firstly, you mentioned that a new observer or poster at MB could be offended by the content of this thread, presumably because he or she is suffering from the emotional and psychological pains caused by an A. I see your point, but we are not responsible for another person sense of sensibility. We cannot control what would be too sensitive for any reader. As I suggested earlier, if a person is 2 offended or 2 sensitive for the material here, he or she should just leave this thread. I do not see a rule on this site saying that people in MFZ’s situation should not post here, nor that they not get help. It is not up to any of us to try to thwart the help that MFZ may get from GQII. As should be clear, many on GQII feel that MFZ is more than welcome here and are more than willing to help him. I do not see why you and the others want to impose your choice not to help him on those of us who do.

Secondly, you rightly mentioned that MFZ children are 26 and 28 years old. I am well aware of this. Children suffer from the destruction of their family no matter how old they are. Unless you believe that once a person becomes 18, he or she is no longer affected by the state of his or her parents’ relationship, I do not see how your point applies. True, the level of pain and how much they may be affected may be less intense than in those who are much younger, but to pooh-pooh their feelings or the effects that a divorce of their PARENTS would have on them seems to me to be unwarranted, a disrespectful judgment, if you will.

Lastly, you argued that time should not be a factor, the factor in determining the moral (?) worth or acceptability of a M. This is a good argument I might add. The crux of the matter for me here is that the new M produced two children, while the first one did not. I agree with you that AM are abominable. They should not be encouraged, nor praised. And in normal circumstances, they should not be abetted. But sometime relevant factors warrant that a case be treated differently from how one would normally go about it.

To recap: in MFZ’s case, he has two children in this M. He has been in this M for 28 years. He does not have any children from the previous M. I think then taken as a whole these factors balance such that MFZ should get help to save his M if he so chooses 2. To be sure, I think this is one issue where reasonable minds can differ. And it is because of this last point that I find it hard to fathom why people insist on staying on this thread even though they don’t think MFZ deserves any help.


Ms. Wondering,

Let me preface that I have admired your transformation and your character for a while now. (And having been Mr. W’s lowly paralegal for a few years now, I also think he is cool also). In fact, I was thinking of you the other as one of the best FWS I have ever seen on this board. You are what I call a “No Excuse, No Justification FWS.”

Now to your point. You suggest that since GQII is an infidelity support group, MFZ should get help elsewhere. In particular, you said,
Does this imply that it was wrong for you to seek and get help from GQII when you first came to MB? I would say no, even though you were not a VICTIM in your sitch. Further, this is MB, not just an infidelity site. Thus, I am not sure why you assume that GQII is just for victims of adultery. From what I have observed, GQII (MB) has also helped, albeit often with numerous 2x4’s, lots of FWS. And in some cases the person seeking and getting help is neither a BS nor WS. Again, I see no rule that says that a person who is in a situation similar to MFZ should not get help on GQII.

I know you may feel otherwise, but this is just your feeling, not the rule on MB, nor the way everyone feels about it. As we all know, feeling is not a sufficient index for determining what is right.

Like I said to MEDC above, there is room for disagreement here, and I just can’t understand why we can’t agree to disagree here.

The Harleys have a system. It seems to work - at least it makes a lot of sense. What I wish they would do is establish an international franchise - train other counsellors so that we could get local help, face to face. I bet they'd find lots of excellent recruits here (star*fish?).
Anyone care to offer a view on whether to share SAA now or whether that would undermine Plan A/B?

MEDC,

I am not sure why you want to take this to an extreme level of rudeness.

Why would anyone want to be called a victim? How sad that would make me feel to have someone call me a victim. I am not a victim. I am not powerless. I am accountable and responsible for everything that has happened and will happen to me.

Should my W have chosen to have an A it is in part because I did a piss poor job of fulfilling my role as a healthy and whole H.

If you were to call me a victim I would call you to the floor on it.

I wouldn't share SAA until your WW goes NC...and I would advise your counselor to tell your WW directly, as our MC did, that she can't make a reasonable decision about staying in the marriage or not if she has any contact with OM. Undue influence. Not real and not reasonable in deciding her life.

My WH quit the OW same day our MC said that. He wasn't recommitted to the marriage...just cutting out the influence which twisted his reality around. Went for clarity, not commitment. Took him another two months to decide for the marriage, and even then, reluctantly (withdrawal). Then he was open to working on the marriage...and we've recovered.

Remember when you were wayward? Felt like it was your BW's doing? Stupid reasoning, like if she could love you, not feeling loved by her...all that crap? That's fog. Again, bases YOUR choices on others' feelings...very tangled.

LA

I'm not the most dedicated Christian in the world...but aren't the concepts of remorse, redemption, and forgiveness key components of the faith? If a person sins mightily in his or her youth but, recognizing the sin, thereafter commits to living virtuously, is there no chance of finding redemption and forgiveness?

Seems to me John 8:1-11 might just apply here.

I have a different view on this kind of sitch.

I think the goal here should be in helping victims of infidelity 2 end the A and recover their sanity, if not their marriage.

Recovering an AM that is subsequently aflicted with another A is just more complicated than recovering a M unencumbered by A baggage from square one.

Add 2 that the fact that this one is 28 years old - okay, the odds against the M surviving 5 years were beaten in this particular case. But it's really "only" a 22-yr M of faithfulness, if Zog's WW has really been in this A for the past 6 years. AND, it's a LTA, if not a VLTA, which is something of a whole 'nother mother 2 have 2 deal with.

My W had a 12-yr A, and recovery has been glacially slow and sometimes painfully difficult for me (and her, though I am still much less privvy 2 her perspective). And our 31 yr marriage isn't an A marriage.

I don't know what I would do in a si2ation similar 2 zog's. Even now, when I'm upset about something, even if it's not related 2 our recovery or even our M, I sometimes think I'd rather call it quits than stay 2gether. When I'm in moods like that, the tendency for me 2 respond 2 sitches like this with "toss her 2 the curb and move on" kinds of messages is greater, though I am thankful that even when I'm in "a mood" I am much less likely 2 be reactionary when I post than I used 2 be.

So, again: What's the goal, here? I would argue that, first and foremost, it's 2 get Zog on firmer footing so that he can ultimately make his decisions with a stable and calm frame of mind.

Zog, you can't educate a WS, so don't even try. If she asks what you're reading, showing her is okay, but she's not likely 2, or if she does ask, she's most likely 2 denegrate you for wasting your time and effort on the advice of "quacks". And you need 2 be prepared 2 slough biting remarks like that right off your back.

-ol' 2long

Ms W,


Zog is a BS now who was a WS then. He has unfortunately worn both hats and karma has come full circle. I still think we're helping a BS. And yes, I think he would love for his WS to come and post here and get the benefit of good counsel like you did.


Here is your first post:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2749178

Despite your fog....you were welcomed and given good advice. As a betrayed spouse myself, I've always thought those kind of posts are the most difficult to read....the ones where the WS still "loves" the OP. I find them much more raw and painful. Hearing about an affair marriage that is currently in an affair....much easier and validating, and not nearly as triggering as hearing a fogged spouse lamenting the loss of their soulmate. As a betrayed spouse....I think I can speak to what hurts me. Begging your pardon, but how do you know what a BS feels? Or needs protection from?


I am one of those victims you speak of, as well as an MB success story....and I think all of this stuff is hard...no question. Many things that are worth doing are hard.

Would it have helped you to be banished to an inactive part of the forum because your posts might upset us? Or did you learn from the very people who had suffered just like your husband did and could voice his pain? Maybe now that you've gotten help, the rules should change about who can post here? Why do you think your journey from wayward spouse to enlightened spouse....is any more legitimate or comfortable for us BSs than Zogs?

The important thing....is that you were able to see the big picture.....and I think that's what's important for Zog too. You were held accountable....and I have no question that Zog will too.

MFZ, I'd stay away from anything that may seem to educate your wife. Other have said "WS cannot be educated" I'd take away the qualifier. Spouses cannot be educated against their desires, and sometimes not even when they want to be! Just try teaching your spouse to ski, or ride a horse, or play golf.

On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with leaving it in plain view on a bookshelf. SAA is not secret.

OK, so not yet then. Get to NC at least and then give her the opportunity to find SAA - if SHE wants to read what's in it. Bless you forgiving souls and sorry to anger the others.
Just told my W all the reasons why I loved her. Great job, she appreciated it. On a roll so I just added something else that was on my mind, which was OK. Then another thing, plus one more. All true but cumulatively cancelled all the credits I just earned. I suppose I didn't want her to think I was a total doormat so couldn't stop when I was ahead. Doh!
I'm getting better but we're going nowhere fast.

Star:

Thanks for posting that link to MrsW.

I will list who posted to her on that first thread:

Believer
Alphin
StillSeeking
FaithfulFollower
GBH
LowOrbit
AussieWife
Rose55
Pep
Susan

and

Just Learning.

Quite a respected list of posters to a newbie.

None, I repeat None, handed her @ss to her.

For three pages. Maybe later in a different thread, MrsW may have lost something off her backside.

Did MrsW continue to claim that she loved her OM? No. SHE GOT IT. Real fast.

So, that brings us to ZOG.

Does he appear to be getting it?

Yes.

Are the circumstances of his marriage unfortunate? Yes. But that was a long time ago.

So, offer Zog the Advice he is seeking. If he is unrepentant and unwilling to do the work, or the kind you want to help, ignore him.