Well, I believe that I answered this question already in my reply to Star*fish, but I'll restate it...Anytime that a WS comes here, seeks and receives help, a BS is inadvertantly being helped...I have no doubt that BSs are hurt when a WS comes here spewing fog, but I believe that they understand that that is part and parcel of the infidelity equation-not to mention that the WS gets their [censored] handed to them on a silver platter...The BSs here get that another BS is helped by clearing WS fog...As I said earlier, I believe most, if not all, BSs here that are fighting to save their marriages would LOVE to see their WSs come here to read and post seeking help...I believe the goal here is to smite adultery is it not?

Of course you are correct, I was NO VICTIM, you'll hear no argument from me otherwise...My own poor choices landed me in the hot water that I was in upon my arrival here...I fully own that...Mr. W and I remain forever indebted to this forum because of all that it has done to help us restore our marriage...That is the very reason that we remain today...

I can tell you that even though I was NOT a victim upon my arrival here, I was most certainly very vunerable-looking for any way to rationalize, justify or perhaps continue in the affair-Hey, I was so sick I went in search of ways to try and beat the infidelity odds-"WS Logic" is NUTS...I believe threads like this can most certainly be harmful to a vunerable WS reading here-which of course is HARMFUL to the BS...WSs all believe themselves to be unique, of course, so when they read a story such as this one, they will NOT take it as a cautionary tale, nope, on the contrary, what it communicates to them is that their affair CAN work and lead to the "ultimate prize"...MARRIAGE!!! And ESPECIALLY when they see that "marriage" being LEGITIMIZED here...It tells them that their affair can STOP being an affair with the passage of time or children born...PUHLEASE...


Um, UVA, GQII DOES fall under the category of INFIDELITY here at MB...I did suggest an alternative section of MB for ManFromZog to receive help from those that wish to offer it...Again, that is just asking for him and others to show COMPASSION to the suffering and vunerable herein...I don't think that is too much to ask, I really don't, do you?

Also, when the one asking for help here is neither a BS or WS they aren't causing hurt or possible harm to the people here, are they? So that does not a viable argument make UVA, sorry...

You are right, there is no rule that says he can't post here, just as there is no rule that says we can't post our opinions about his situation on his thread-To paraphrase 'Evil Thrives, When Good Men Stand Silent'...Voicing our opinions is not a violation of the TOS...Again, just asking for ManFromZog and others to exercise compassion...I don't see the problem with that...Why is GQII the only place on MB that he can get the help that he says he wants? It seems to me that he personally would be better served in an area not so sensitized to his situation-less distractions for him, right? Doesn't that make sense?


I'm sorry, it's not just feeling, IMO...To me it doesn't seem anywhere close to logical or reasonable for someone in an Affair Marriage to be advised on how to keep their AFFAIR alive and kicking in this arena full of suffering and vunerablity due to infidelity...*scratching my head on that one*


We certainly can agree to disagree-I'm under no delusion that I'll change your mind about helping an Affair Marriage on GQII-I CAN hope though! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...Why the need to silence those that disagree with you? Why must we be told to ignore this? Is that the kind of advice that is going to be given out on MB from now on? "IGNORE THE ADULTERY!!!" SERIOUSLY??? Does that actually make any sense to you? Sorry, but I'm hard pressed to see how anyone can do the mental gymnastics necessary to get logic out of that...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


-emphasis mine


Ark, I assume that it's safe to say that whatever it was that you were doing way back when that you wouldn't wish to be judged for now has stopped, correct? ManFromZog's Affair CONTINUES...When does it stop being an affair? If at some point affairs earn legitimacy and cease to be affairs, then what in the world are we all doing here? Why bother fighting for traditional marriage? What's the point? Eventually everyone will get over it and life will go on, eh?


Mr. A...

No one WANTS to be called a VICTIM or to BE a VICTIM, but the fact remains that adultery is a HUGE abuse of the BS...Dr. Harley likens it to RAPE or the DEATH OF A CHILD...It is simply that serious and egregious...

And OH MY DEAR GOD, if your wife CHOSE to have an affair you most certainly would NOT be responsible for ANY part of that horrible CHOICE...That would ALL be on her...I can assure you that if I've learned nothing else since being here, I have learned that, and I can promise you that it is FACT...Take that to the BANK my friend...

Mrs. W

MFZ, what was your point of the conversation you had with your W? Was it to tell her those non-doormat things? Or was it to tell her why you loved her? It is possible both needed to be said at some point, but it may have been counterproductive to use a single conversation for both purposes.

Furthermore, it seems to me that certain disputes are best left unaddressed during Plan A. I find it may not be the ideal time to bring up issues other than the most important boundaries.

So at the point you started backsliding, how did you lose the ground you had gained? It is possible you were unintentionally using LB's. Or you may have been asking for something she couldn't give yet (being that the WW spouse does not want to meet the BS's needs). Or it may be that your respectful request that WW not see her A partner were not well met. May I ask what those things were that you felt compelled to tell your spouse?

No redemption then. Bless those who are helping me.

Chobbs,
1. That I didn't want to smother her but thought we ought to do more things together that we now do apart. Of course she wants to keep her space.
2. That I had checked her phone texts and call history (which I knew she found out and now deletes) and had every right in the circumstances. She didn't agree of course.
3. That it wasn't true (in reply to her statement) that I wanted to keep her in spite of what she wanted. If she knew what she wanted she would have gone by now, I just want to give her a better alternative if she wants to choose it.
... Afterwards I thought (1) was getting ahead of where I was in Plan A; perhaps (2) could have been left unsaid, and certainly at that point, since we both knew anyway; and (3) was an understable reaction to her belief that I was trapping her. Perhaps these "extras" weren't altogether wrong, just that they cancelled the credits from my excellent beginning.

WOW Star*fish, this is a mighty strange tact you've chosen to take, but okay, I'll play...I do not care one bit to show any and all of my posts here...I've never claimed that I wasn't a foggy, entitled, horrible WS...No question about that...I was a NIGHTMARE...Again, this forum was a Godsend for us...I don't have a clue what you are hoping to prove here at all...that's really BIZARRE actually...

Ours is NOT an affair marriage...Which ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY DOES MAKE THIS NOT THE SAME ISSUE AT ALL!!! And you know what Star, if someone had asked me to go somewhere else when I first got here, I would have...EVEN in the fogged out mindset that I was in...I do KNOW that about ME...What people saw though was an opportunity to save a LEGITIMATE marriage, and that is what happened...Had I not have chosen to stay in my marriage I would NOT have been welcomed here-rightfully so...As I stated in my previous post, I'm sure that WS posts are tough to read for BSs, but I believe that the BSs here do understand that those are part and parcel of the infidelity nightmare, AND that by helping a WS, they are helping a BS...I don't think that people expect to find folks helping an affair to CONTINUE in this arena though...

Of course I can't know exactly how a BS feels-Way to state the OBVIOUS there Star! All I can do is read, listen and learn...I can tell you that I have GREAT amounts of empathy for the BSs here though-I've read Mr. W's journal from my wayward time period-I've tried as hard as I can to place myself in his shoes-still isn't the same, I KNOW that...I can tell you that I do know what it feels like to be cheated on and it HURTS badly-no, not in my marriage, so no, I can't know that feeling exactly...I came VERY close to being the BS before I was the WS...Had an employee of ours not have said "NO" to Mr. W's proposition, the shoe would have been on the other foot in our marriage-it was a hot mess...I do understand that coming close to being a BS and actually being one is different-close only counts in horseshoes afterall...Really though, none of this is actually relevant to the issue at hand, IMO...As I said, I CAN read and, there ARE BSs here that HAVE stated that they ARE hurt by threads like these being here...

As for the rest of why I think a thread like this is HARMFUL in this venue, please refer to my previous post...

And Star*fish, you really are something else my friend, BECAUSE you are the one that brought ManFromZog to GQII, and you most definitely KNEW exactly what would transpire when he got here...I do question your motives on that, sorry...

Mrs. W

I suppose it is more subjective than I ever thought, but I find peace by believing the A ends when the divorce papers are signed. It makes the most sense to me that obligation ends when the parties are no longer married. Not the pain, but the obligation. To fault that logic is to also doom BSs who cannot avoid D to years of loneliness.

That is your belief. I trust that my neglect of my H contributed to his wayward ways. I'm not taking HIS responsibility, I didn't cause his A, that was his choice. But I succombed to LBers, eroding my DH's love and respect for me. I disregarded his needs. I did not uphold my side of the M. And I find that hardly more respectible, now I understand the damage I'd done. My experience is that, as a BS, it is no less painful being part of the problem, as it is to be completely absolved of responsibility. At least if I am part of the problem, I can fix my side of the street. I can feel compassion for my WH's choices, even if I don't respect them. Even if they would never have been my choices.

There is no reason to question SF's motives... they are perfectly clear.

Jesus went across to Mount Olives, but he was soon back in the Temple again. Swarms of people came to him. He sat down and taught them.

The religious scholars and Pharisees led in a woman who had been caught in an act of adultery. They stood her in plain sight of everyone and said, "Teacher, this woman was caught red-handed in the act of adultery. Moses, in the Law, gives orders to stone such persons. What do you say?"

Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger in the dirt. They kept at him, badgering him. He straightened up and said, "The sinless one among you, go first: Throw the stone." Bending down again, he wrote some more in the dirt.

Hearing that, they walked away, one after another, beginning with the oldest. The woman was left alone. Jesus stood up and spoke to her, "Woman, where are they? Does no one condemn you?"

"No one, Master."

"Neither do I, " said Jesus. "Go and sin no more."

John 8: 1-11

***

Seems to me if Jesus could forgo an opportunity to condemn an adulteress who had sinned against the laws of God, then we could have a little charity in our hearts also, folks.

MFZ has confessed his sin and has repented. What more can he do? Frankly, if we choose to condemn him because of his past sins and if we insist there is no possibility of redemption for him, we are also calling into question why one should ever forgive ANY wayward spouse.

MFZ’s sin was not that he married another wayward spouse. God blessed that union with two children and I will not set myself above God’s judgment.

MFZ’s sin was that he became a wayward spouse in the first place. No more, no less. Shall we now condemn EVERY wayward spouse to unending shame and ridicule? Shall we now shun them and deny them a chance to return to the fold?

Tell me, when does the stoning begin, and where will it end?

I don't follow this line of thinking at all.

Sounds like if the WS simply pushes a DV through (and I've know of a few BSs here who've had this happen, such that they find themselves DVd within a few months of learning that there was a problem!) so they can have their A, then that's "okay" because they're not obligated 2 their BS?

Legally, I suppose you're correct. Morally, I don't believe this is the case. It seems 2 me that the AM, no matter how long or spiffy it appears 2 be, will always be several moral notches below a mu2ally exclusive commitment between 2 people with all their cards on the table and all their baggage properly dealt with.

...and I'm not religious at all.

-ol' 2long

Mrs. W.

Disclaimer: First off I want to say that the things I'm going to state are things I believe of myself. I expect no one to follow in my way of thinking nor am I judging anyone should they believe differently.

These beliefs are things I acquired during some very life changing seminars. One of the key principles taught in the seminar was that there are NO VICTIMS. Imagine my surprise when the facilitator told a man his brother who was shot by a mugger was not a victim!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



Yep I would agree with you there. I have no doubt it is a horrific thing to have to experience.
I know how I felt during a time when I suspected my W may have cheated on me.



Nope, I would not be responsible for any part of her horrible choice. She would be responsible and would have to suffer her own consequences for making that choice.

That STILL doesn't make me a victim. And I still would be somewhat offended that you would label me as such. It makes it looks as if I was powerless. I still had plenty of responsibilities to ensure that she never felt compelled or entitled to make that choice. A lack of action on my part nullifies victimhood for me.

I take full accountability for my part. I've had this conversation with my W. I've had this sit down with her when I asked her about my concerns about possible infidelity. She replied 'No'. I stated to her "Please, if you ever feel that it's come down to that do me the favor of ending things with me first. I promise you that I will do the same for you as I am firmly opposed to having any kind of affair.".

I know I'm getting away from your point. I normally react when I see the word victim. I just felt compelled to say that there is plenty we can do that is within our power to ensure we aren't victims. And if we find ourselves being violated/betrayed we can find reasons why we aren't victims but instead had some responsibility in allowing that to happen to us.

For instance the man shot by the mugger could have done plenty to avoid his unfortunate and horrific death. He could have made sure he wasn't alone in a not so safe place. Or he could have not been in that area at all. Or he could have just given him the wallet instead of calling his bluff about shooting him or ....

This isn't about blame. It's about being accountable and responsible for ourselves. It allows me to be healthier. It allows me to move past these types of incidents and gain more control of what happens to me.

Sitting around venting that I'm the victim doesn't accomplish anything for myself. If anything it creates a sedentary position whereby I feel allowed/entitled to do nothing. Afterall I didn't do anything wrong. Nope. Nothing wrong here. But worrying about not being wrong doesn't get done what I need to get done and that is seeking to find the things that WORK and DON'T WORK for me in my life.

Hopefully I didn't bore you to tears with this. I suppose I'll be labeled an 'odd duck' now. I can live with that ... just not a victim.

Anything in mind? Is she open to your participation in her hobby? Or is there something she might also enjoy (even dining out on a regular basis)? She may be more open to the idea if you have something particular in mind. Now you are negotiating what will tempt her... You don't have to be specific "Honey, we need 15 hours this week!"... You can suggest dinner, or a movie, and be the one keeping tabs on the time spent together without her having to "actively" participate on the principle of it...

Were you trying to prove contact was still taking place? I'm not sure I understand how this helps your case at this point (I thought the A is out in the open, at least to you).

Sorry, MFZ, this was a LB. Yep, this method of communication (assuming that your WW doesn't know what she wants) is going to rile every time (or at least it has, in my experience). And to some point, she's right. She wants her OM, and you. And you don't want that. I don't see where you needed to respond to this fog-speak.

Whose to say you aren't worse off than you started... You've a long road ahead...

I seem to recall an incident in either "His Needs, Her Needs" or "LoveBusters" where Dr. Willard Harley helped a client who was a serial adulterer. This man had an affair and left his first wife for his affair partner. Then he did the same thing to his affair partner/second wife, left her for a third affair partner. The man wanted help ending the cycle of infidelity he was trapped in.

Dr. Harley pointed out that he normally does not help affair partners stay together, but in this case - neither the first nor the second wife wanted anything more to do with him. So rather than leave the man to wallow, Harley counseled him - in order to stop the cycle.

Man From Zog has indicated that his first wife wants nothing more to do with him, and hasn't for 28 years.

When I first read his thread on Emotional Needs, I have to admit I felt little or no sympathy for him. I still don't feel that much sympathy. He started his marriage on a rotten foundation, and it is no surprise the edifice is tumbling down. But the man is clearly looking for help. He has expressed remorse for the affair and for how he treated his ex-wife. And he keeps coming back, looking for advice, keeping his head down, and not responding in an angry or hostile manner to his critics.

He's spent half his life married to this woman, and has two children with her - is he just supposed to slump to the ground and give up? The odds are really stacked against him to begin with.

And what about his WW? If the cycle of infidelity isn't stopped here, she will continue on in this same destructive manner. Zog, at least, professes to have learned from his mistake and says he wouldn't ever do that again - but why wouldn't his WW continue on victimizing other married couples?

Just a few thoughts...

Longhorn...

Jesus said "Go and Sin No More"...How does that fit with a CONTINUING AFFAIR? An Affair Marriage is a continuation of an affair, IME...


Mr. A...

Um, okay, if that works for you, alrighty then...I'm not sure that many BSs would agree with you that they could have prevented their WSs from becoming wayward...That's a mighty tall order and it does assume control over another individual, IMO...And your conversation about leaving before you would ever become wayward...I believe most folks would tell you that they have had similar conversations, I know we sure did...Sadly, the nature of affairs does NOT allow for that...Those are good intentions and all, but you know what they say, "the road to he[i][/i]ll is paved with good intentions"...I'd venture a guess that none of us FWSs ever thought we'd become wayward either-I sure didn't-I was one of those who said "NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS"-You do know that people that say that are the most at risk to become wayward, right?

Mrs. W

MFZ,

You said you didn't want to smother her? Do you really think you're that powerful?

That's not an attack...consider what you really believe. The suggestion to you was to get in 15 hours of UA through RC...which worked great for me and many others here. Where you think up fun stuff (and taking the RC inventory is fun in and of itself, I found), invite her along, and if she doesn't want to...go and do the activity, anyway.

How could that be smothering?

Know how to make someone defensive really fast? Say, "I don't want to make you defensive, but..." Does that ring any bells with you in regards to smothering?

Or are you maybe bringing up the smothering because of one of her statements from the past...that you were clingy, or needy, or smothering?

Best way to NOT smother is to take your focus off her stuff and get centered in your own...take those exposure actions, act calm and when you cannot (when you feel flooded during a discussion), remove yourself for a stated 20 minutes and return. Listen and repeat, for clarification or confirmation. No lecturing. Do O&H driveby statements, not long ones. Learn what's sharing and what's discussing...very healthy to know the difference.

You're in control of you. You have your own power and limits...get to know them really well. Know that you cannot smother...and be aware of what you are really thinking.

Know you are being brave, choosing your own goal and acting for it...just as you can now learn to act from it...your choice. Was, all along...now you see it clearly.

Plan A...being authentic. Not manipulative. Not judging how she feels, responds, what she thinks...which is focusing where you have no control (and never did), hence, no power. Healthy limit. She can't make you, either.

Know you're choosing to be brave...don't panic and look for quick solutions...know that's just your inner child, in a heckuva lot of pain, being wishful. Don't let your inner child decide your life...when you did that before, you divorced a faithful woman and tried to buy off your conscience. Be the great man you are...and take this hard road all the way through. Redemption road waits for you...just increases in difficulty to achieve the longer you wait to walk it.

LA

Ms W,

I really do appreciate your fervency as a marriage advocate, speaking out against affairs, and defending the feelings of BSs who could be hurt. I think most of us here have similar goals. One of the reasons we have ignore functions and moderators is because it would be impossible to get "agreement" from such a diverse group about who should or should not be allowed to post....or how they should post. It's clear from your first post that you've come a very long way. Your objections are clear. You might be right that warning Zog wasn't enough and I do have some regret for sending him here....perhaps....I should have "warned" GQ too? Do you think that would help? Thanks.

2long,

Granted, I'm a bit more stoic on the whole issue than many others appear to be. But I will remain faithful to my vows until I get a D. At that point, I will not hold my ExH to any higher standard than I would hold myself. I'm not justifying the cause of the D, just that it takes two to be Med. If one wants out, he or she will find a way. I can only control myself.

I concur that the M started in less than ideal conditions. Nonetheless, it is done, and like any M's with a spouse who had an underlying condition (addiction comes to mind), the flaw was there and they Med anyway. No point complaining. It's time to deal with it.

Star

Mrs W....I really don't understand. You arrived here as a wayward spouse. Some of your first posts were about missing the OP terribly and all about your withdrawal....which was probably FAR more painful (excruciating really) for BSs on this board to listen to...than an affair that happened 28 years ago. Why was this board okay for you....but not this poster? I'm not attacking you....I'm very glad you came here and recovered your marriage. I just don't see how Zog's situation is any more painful for BSs to hear about then the withdrawal of a wayward spouse. I hope that Zog can find the same amount of good information that you did.


I think that this is an issue that you either "get" or you don't.

When I arrived as a broken mess, discussion of WS Fog behaviour, interpreted by folks like Orchid and some of the wonderful FWS here actually gave me HOPE. To see that others had been just as immersed in the fog of their entengled class two affairs YET had utterly repented not only of the sin but of the attitude to OP and the affair was very hopeful to me. It helped draw the sting from some horrible experiences for me and I know many others.

Now back then, an affair marriage was absolutely everything I feared and loathed. An affair - the demon that was biting me - even one "legitimised" by time and marriage would have broken my heart - literally - I woud have lost heart to fight the good fight.

Maybe Cosmo is right and an affair is just a sign of incompatabilty ?

So half my issue with supporting affair marriages in the town square of this place is the disheartening of the broken hearted BS, as I was.

My second major issue is with the HOPE such examples give.

If you can be bothered, seek out the older just Jilly threads and SEE the folks who showed up to take comfort from the coo-ing and tutting legitimization of her affair marriage. Spectacles for example - an OW who actively pestered her target WH on these boards and off until he left his wife. She posted she got GREAT comfort from the example of an affair marriage. Pink Paige - another OW took grand solace and hope as did others I will not grant the oxygen of publicity to.

Just as the best posts give hope of a righteous outcome from a terrible infidelity situation IMO, posts supporting and therefore apparently legitimising affair marriages - an outcome that only unrepentant WS and OPs hope for - are surely not right for the town square frequented by folks trying to make their CURRENT legitimate marriage work.

So those are my reasons why I disagree with you about the discussion of affairs and fog being more hurtful than legitimising or even accepting affair marriages in this place. It is VERY MUCH more painful to me than hearing about Fog , and WORSE it encourages WS and OPs in their affairs. How can it NOT encourage WS and OPs to see affair marriages supported on here ?

I think it would be best if such troubled marriages were helped in a quieter place. I don't know if just Jilly is getting help she needs now - I hope so - but she is receiving that where it will be less likely to dishearten vulnerable folks.

I hope I have articulated my feelings in a clear way here.

So...the solution is for MFZ to get divorced and THEN people can forgive him?

b0b,

I've always considered you one of the most articulate posters we have. Disagreement is still possible when people speak articulately from two different perspectives, however. Thank you very much for your post....I appreciate it. I want to respond at length, but I really must go cook dinner and tend to my family.....sorry. I'm not ignoring you or anyone else. If I have some time tommorrow, would you mind if I responded on another thread?

Hi mate

So...the solution is for MFZ to get divorced

I never said or inferred this.

and THEN people can forgive him?

He's done nothing to me, why do I need to forgive him ?

I don't think its helpful to turn this issue (as happens so often) to imply that anyone who has an issue with affair marriages being legitimised nd enabled in "main street" MB is either unforgiving, or a religious dogma nutjob LH.

As I said, I don't need to forgive MFZ or anyone that hasn't sinned against me.

My issue is that those who want to help, should do so but in a place that does not so easily dishearten the broken hearted or encourage the wayward.

No more than that.