The question wasn't directed at you, BP. Sorry it appeared to be, but I hadn’t even seen your post when I wrote that.


********

However, the questions still stands, folks. I’m sure you all understand the parallels I’m trying to draw here.

Tell me, folks, when and how can these sinners be brought back to the fold? What atonement for past transgressions will be enough to allow this person to associate with the good people here on MB?

You know, every church I've ever heard about had a mechanism for sinners to receive redemption and forgiveness. If MB doesn’t have some way to do that, we leave a whole group of people out in the cold with no hope of finding their way back. That’s pretty callous in my books.

You know, I think most of us are Christians on this board. How do Christians abandon their fellow human beings to the darkness in such a cavalier fashion? How will you (not meaning anyone specifically)...as a Christian...rationalize deserting a sinner in his hour of need as you sit in church next Sunday? How will you explain it to your pastor?


********

May I suggest a solution? There are those who feel MFZ has shown remorse for what he’s done and who also think there’s not a whole heck of a lot more he can do. Here’s the rationale.

Folks, he didn’t have to tell us of his infidelity 30 years ago. I don’t see any way it would have ever come up if he hadn’t started his thread with it. That he admitted a sin against his marriage speaks of a renewal of integrity within him, does it not? Aren’t the expressions of guilt and sorrow at what he did pretty good signs of remorse? What more do you want from him?

You know what? Any of the pros out here would have helped him had he been deceitful and no one would have ever been the wiser. This discussion wouldn’t even be taking place.

But he did admit his transgression. I think today he understands quite clearly how evil his abandonment of his marriage was…but there’s not a thing on God’s green earth he can do about what happened 30 years ago. The way I see it, because he was honest with us, MFZ is being chastised and sent away, tucked into a corner where those who have judged him won’t have to be offended by the sight of him. I don’t think that’s right.

If you don’t feel that way, power to you. I respect everyone’s right to have an opinion…but…would someone explain to me how anyone here will be harmed if this man is helped to recover his marriage?

Your opinion is your own but, for God’s sake, why heap more suffering onto anyone's head when you don’t have to? Why not just stay off this thread and ignore it completely. Why can’t the good people here just sit back and let the person who brought MFZ to this community try to organize a rescue?

Affair Marriages being supported on GQII...Wow, what a great example of moral relativism that is...Waywards will LOVE this!!! Gray areas make justifications and rationalizations such a snap!!! Live and Let Live! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


www.moral-relativism.com

Not going further into the Christian argument LH...It's the chosen VENUE that is the biggest issue here...SIGH...

DEJA MOO...

Mrs. W

Sorry you feel that way, MrsW. I respect you and your opinions but I don't feel moral relativism is the way to go on this.

MFZ, Chobbs had some good advice. You know, for years I tried to get my then H into counseling and failed. I made a lot of changes in myself and that helped the marriage some. I think I could have gotten B to spend 15 hours with me had I not positioned it as "We shoud spend 15 hours alone." LOL. And I don't think he was having an affair. The problem you're going to run into is that your wife will probably try to spend many hours with the OM at the same time you're trying to get her to spend time with you. Obviously, for a little while at first, the time with you needs to be all fun and games. The more fun for her the better. And ease her into it. Sort of "Oh, by teh way honey, I have an extra ticket for the game tonight, wanna come along?" If she says no, maybe you go with a buddy or something. My idea may be flawed, so think about it.

would someone explain to me how anyone here will be harmed if this man is helped to recover his marriage?


Longhorn, nottrying to be funny here but did you actually READ my post ?

Can you not see how ENCOURAGING such examples are to waywards ?
Can you not see how DISHEARTENING such examples are to BS and vulnerable FWS trying to rebuild a seemingly perma-broken marriage ?

LH, this isn't just my "opinion". It is searchable FACT that active WS ad OPs took ENCOURAGEMENT from supporting affair marriages in mainstreet MB. It is FACT that the vulnerable were hurt.

I am suggesting that he DOES get the help he wants but away from where that very help for one ill-starred marriage can potentially damage many others.

His honesty regarding the origins of his marriage is creditable, BUT that very honesty exposes a consequence of his decisions right there - that attribute right away encourages WS and OPs and disheartens BS and FWS. I have no doubt we help affair marriages every day, but without that sticker on them they do not encourage WS and OPS.

why heap more suffering onto anyone's head when you don’t have to?

This is EXACTLY my motivation ! I do not want to heap more suffering on the many vulnerable BS and FWS on this site, in this public place. It seems your compassion lies with this one man. Can you not find it in your heart to extend that to a solution least hurtful to ALL the broken hearted here ?

Longhorn - You ask about forgiveness?

How about repentance and TURNING AWAY from sin - didn't Jesus tell the adulteress to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

Since when is an affair marriage legitimate at any time? What exactly IS the statute of limitations on an affair?

5 years? 10 years?

Don't worry Longhorn - my pastor was incapable of giving any rational answers to these questions as well.

exactly

Mrs. W,



I won't speak of these others. They, like you, have made choices based on how they've trained themselves to think. I have adopted other beliefs in hopes they would help me avoid those things that don't work in my life.

I, myself, have said it a million times. "I will never have an EA or PA." I know for a fact that I am not in the group highest at risk to become wayward. It would cause me too much personal, internal damage. It would violate a serious value I have.

I will never feel entitled to have an A because I know, no matter what, I play a role in what happens to me. I will never feel the victim therefore I will never feel entitled to behave like one. Do you see the beauty in that statement? I would never feel trapped nor would I feel the need for vengence. Do you see how this belief I have makes me a stronger, healthier person? Do you see how preaching that belief could help many a person who thought about becoming a WS?

If my M had issues I would most definitely feel sadness and anger and disappointment. And because of that I would seek first to fix what is pushing me away from my M. And if those efforts failed I would, more than likely, pack it in. Try again with someone else once my M had ended. Ended as in legally ended ... divorced.

I wouldn't want to be with someone who would want to have an A with me. It speaks volumes to me about their character and their values. How could I ever trust someone like that? Having trust is EXTREMELY important to me. I'm sure it is to nearly everyone.

On the flip side of the A monster:
My W knows I'm doing everything I can to make our M a strong, happy and healthy one. She knows that I provide a safe place for her to come to to discuss any and all issues concerning our M. That doesn't mean she always comes forth with everything but she knows she has the option should she decide she needs to.

Because of that I would probably leave my W should she decide to have an A. She would have to do some pretty serious convincing to get me to change my mind. I would have a hard time ever trusting her again.

I, myself, wouldn't feel the victim if she decided to stray. I would realize there were reasons why she decided to make that choice (poor as it was). Maybe we just weren't very compatible or mabe our values changed over time or .....

Just because I don't feel victimized doesn't mean she gets a 'get out of jail free card'. That doesn't mean she doesn't suffer the consequences of her actions.

I'll leave you with this. These beliefs that I've acquired have come from a professional counseling service. They are affiliated with a schooling system for troubled teens. One of my nieces who was a straight 'A' student became self-destructive around the time she turned 16. After many attempts to get her help my sister and BIL could no longer trust that they could protect her from herself. They feared she would succeed in her next suicide attempt. They found this school system where she was sent away.

As a part of the schooling the parents are asked to participate in weekend seminars where they learn the same principles the children are learning. That way when the kids return home everyone is on the same page. These seminars are open to the public. My father went in support of his Granddaughter, daughter and son-in-law. He was so impressed by what he learned he paid the way of several of our family members (myself included) and offered to pay for a dozen or so more than that.

This system has changed our family's lives. Those of us that have participated have found new ways to communicate. We've become a less dysfunctional family (trust me there was dysfunction) and we're closer than we've ever been.

For me it was this system that changed my life. From there I learned to became more proactive in dealing with my own issues. There was/is some conflict in my M which is what lead me to MB. And being here has only enhanced what I learned in those seminars.

There's that ... for what it's worth.

your post makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of a girl that I saw recently on TV... she WAS a victim of a shark attack that took her leg... yet she REFUSED to feel like a victim...a distinction of some importance for her life. It makes a lot of sense for some people to see things this way and obviously in your family, the results have been terrific.
Would you mind sharing the name of the system so that I can look into it? Thanks...

MEDC

makeeverydaycnt,

Sure. I actually posted their URL a long time ago in the Other Websites section here at MB.

The direct link to the seminar section is :

Resource Realizations - Seminars

There are two stages to their seminars - 1st is Discovery and 2nd is Focus. I've attended both. I got a lot out of both but the 1st one really opened my eyes. I practiced what I learned from that one for over a year before I went back for the 2nd session. Most people I spoke with go one right after another maybe a month or two apart. Of course many of the participants are parents of the children in the school system and they're trying to complete their education before their child is allowed to come home.

They've changed their site a little I see. It appears they are getting into coaching and teaching individuals to be coaches ... which is cool. I've done 6 months of Life Coaching with an friend here at MB named SymphonyOfLife. That was really helpful as well.

Is it not manipulative to decide which M's meet the criteria for saving via MB's forums? An action based on how we expect others to react?

Isn't that a DJ?

Mr. Alias,

Please be alerted, I responded to your big post above by starting another thread called "what's your plan?". Read it and respond, if you want.


I'd like to take this opportunity to support and state my appreciation for the strong and "wonderous" stance my wife, Mrs. W has taken on this thread (and the other AM thread).

If there was a FWS cereal...I do believe, Mrs. W's picture would be on the box. It's amazing and oddly queer that she endured and stood up for the hurting BS's here on this thread AGAINST FBS's. Questioning her empathy...ridiculous.

I'm proud of her.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - At 2:15 am this morning, Mrs. W's 98 year old Grandmother passed away peacefully in her sleep. 9 Children (one passed away as an infant and one in Vietnam), 14 Grandchildren, a number of Great Grandchildren. All Christians. She read the bible daily and lived a pioneer woman's life in the north Georgia mountains. May she rest in peace.

Chobbs,

WE "decide" nothing.

Merely stating our opinions...just as you have, wrongly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

BTW, I'm really in to lovebusting affairs AND affair marriages. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've been doing it for years here. It's called consistency.

Mr. Wondering

David and Bathsheba.

Adultery AND murder.

There were consequences for their actions, yet they were forgiven.

David, described as a man after God's heart, continued to live with and conceive more children with Bathsheba. It doesn't seem that God told him to set her aside.

Was God wrong not to have done so?

We humans can often be harsher than God.

At 2:15 am this morning, Mrs. W's 98 year old Grandmother passed away peacefully in her sleep. 9 Children (one passed away as an infant and one in Vietnam), 14 Grandchildren, a number of Great Grandchildren. All Christians. She read the bible daily and lived a pioneer woman's life in the north Georgia mountains. May she rest in peace.

Father God, may we all be so blessed as this lady.

Comfort her bereaved ones Lord, and let them know your peace that surpasses all understanding.
Amen

Have I implied you are inconsistant? Or are you implying I am inconsistant? I'm not sure what you are trying to establish. Perhaps I would better understand if you could answer this: do you believe there are acceptible reasons for D?

If you concur that D can be an answer for dangerous or irreconcilable differences, is remarriage acceptible?

If remarriage is acceptible, do we have the right to choose whom a person other than ourselves marry? Anyone other than an A partner? Is there a distinction between marriageability of EA and PA partners? What about on rebound from the A partner? If he does not marry the A partner, but cheats on her, can he marry the new OW? Personally, there's too many qualifications to consider. I don't want the responsibility to decide what is unacceptible behavior after a D.

I'm not saying it is always right, just that it is. What purpose does it serve to break up an existing AM? Would you release these people back into the dating pool to fail again, which seems a certainty without having learned the skills they lacked in the first M(s)?

I think it is wonderfully idealistic, but falls short of reality, to want all M's to start with two healthy individuals. Heck, my own M wasn't healthy b/c my DH has an addictive personality, but I didn't know that at the time. I married based on what I knew (and lordy, lordy, what does that say about me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ). Are you not friends with anyone who has remarried? And how does one decide who is "right" in the cause of a D and who is "wrong"? How can we assume we have all the information to determine the Truth. For example, before MB, my DH didn't consider EA's as something wrong. If we Ded because he had an EA, in his mind he did nothing wrong. By this standard, he could remarry, have marital problems, and come here for advice with a clear conscience. It simply wouldn't occur to him to write how the "AM" started. And he would never get the flack MFZ does b/c he would not see truth the way we define it via MB principles.

So where does that leave us? Where does that leave R/H? I really hate being lied to, but jiminey christmas!, this debate on marital legitimacy makes it unrewarding to be honest! The fact that MFZ is taking his lumps with grace tells me so much about his character. This was someone's WS, and now he's someone's BS. According to the way he behaves now, I don't see a resemblence to the entitled, selfish being he once was with regards to M.

*gasp* Me wrong, NEVER! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Please accept my condolences for Mrs W's grandmother.

I surely am disappointed at some MB folks who I have held in high regard for a long time.


(Edited to correct grammar)

Me too , Longhorn. Me too.

MFZ,

How are you doing? I don't think I've seen you post in about three pages...of course, I don't know what that is in dog years.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

I don't defend what I did 30 (not 28) years ago. If we'd had MB to help back then I might have understood the crucial importance of NC for a start.
When I've had a chance to absorb all your comments since my last post I will respond. Thank you again.