I don't care what you did. I care only what effect such marriages as your provably have on the vulnerable on these boards when aired on GQ2.

Knowing that having affair marriges supported in this place encourages many WS and disheartens many BS and FWS would you be happy being supported by smart folks in a quieter place on MB ?

Hi LA, I'm doing OK. I thought fixing some things around the house yesterday would give me more credits than being hunched over my PC so took a bit of a break. Also I am +6 hours so probably a lot got posted whilst I slept.
On the stormy debate of if/where to post I might point out that my story does not seem that encouraging to WS/OPs - aren't I getting my just deserts?
As to whether I learned my lesson - a WS sometimes gets a healthy dose of aversion therapy from what they did.
LA: the "smothering" was because she doesn't want me to gate-crash the activities she does without me (she has a lot of these, and being more naturally athletic/coordinated I tend to quickly outdo her in the active ones). We're not in recovery so I was way ahead of plan - guess it takes practice to learn patience.
Chobbs and Greengables - feedback like yours is so helpful. Thanks all for posting, whatever "side" you're on.

If Zog goes back to the emotional needs forum and refrains from posting his situation in GQ will those that feel he shouldn't post in GQ let those who choose to try to help him, try to help him over there?

If that is the case... that he will be allowed to try to work on himself and his marriage over in EN's forum without the constant debate over whether or not his posting is causing real harm to BS... then I would encourage Zog to go back to EN forum. If he is going to be hounded over there too... then none of the arguments about his being here in the trenches of GQland make sense.

Zog... there are a lot of folks here who have a lot of wisdom. Some of those with experience will choose to help you and some won't. I believe that if the consensus is that you will be allowed to post over in EN forum... then it might be more helpful for you because then the focus can move back to your issues and away from the debate over whether or not you have a right to post here.

you asked, I will answer. So long as Zog is in a place here where his needs can be met and not risk offending others, I would be fine with that. I gave you a hard time when you posted here on GQ JJ... but I have not had ONE negative word to say when you took your talk to a more private area.

Thanks for your input.

MFZ, you are in no danger of being banned from GQII, unless a decision is changed among the moderators of this board. You have not violated any TOS, and you have maintained your dignity while taking some awfully vitriolic hits. You have responded to critics respectfully. These things have been noticed and your status here is not in jeopardy because of your adherence to those standards. Sir, my best advice at the moment is for you to please make sure you continue doing those things.

I’ve been asked to stay with you and help you with advice, as best I can provide it. I’ll gladly do so, working with Star*fish and everyone else who chimes in. However, MFZ, there will be those who will never change their opinions of you, no matter what. I know you’re aware you can continue to read their commentary, and (in a dignified, respectful fashion) reply, if you want to, but it may become counter-productive at some point. If that happens you can turn off comments from selective users by clicking on their screen name and finding the hypertext, “Ignore this user,” near the bottom of the text box. Once you click on that, the user’s posts to you will not appear on your screen.

MFZ, if I may speak plainly, I abhor what you did in your first marriage. I think it was obscene and I will always feel that way.

Nevertheless, I see repentance in your words. I see some acknowledged guilt there too. I think you made some gestures at making amends but I’m not sure how far that went. If you choose to make a better record in these matters, your thread is yours to do so.

You have a choice to make. You can continue to post here on GQII and no one will stop you. I believe Star brought you over here so you could get a larger number of advisors, and more variety in the advice being given you. The EN forum has quite a few less viewers than GQII does. However, Star’s purpose may have been served by the recent debate here in GQII. If you want to return to EN, I’ll follow you over and I hope some of the pros out here will also. If you want to stay in GQII to pick up advice from greater numbers of advisors, that too is fine. It’s your decision to make. Just let us know what it is, okay?

MFZ,

Great choice on doing the in real life stuff...don't know about credits...were these acts of love which filled you up a bit in doing them?

Thanks for the reminder of the time lag, as well.

Gotta question for you...are you seeing where a wayward mindset affected how you approached your marriage and may have contributed to what has transpired in your marriage?

LA

Thank you Longhorn. I came here for help and not to offend people. I have received good advice AND clearly offended some. I'm sorry the latter feel that way as my story is clearly no endorsement of AMs; however I will not turn off their comments because if the balance of offence taken is too great it may be best to move. I will stay here for now - thank you.
On your other point, all I could do for my XW was to give her all the assets I owned which, even as a young man, were not bad. We had an NC agreement after that which I have respected but I do know she's OK.

Okay, here it shall be then.

MFZ, what I get from your early posts on this thread is a sense you don't have much idea of what to do next in your situation. May I suggest you clink on the link in my signature block to the thread about organizing a marital recovery? I think it'll help get you grounded and we can work from there.

MFZ - I'll post to you wherever. Just let us know. What happened 28 years ago is over and done. I've forgotten it.

My sincerest condolencenes to you and Mrs.W on the homegoing of Mrs. W's grandmother. Loss of a loved one is always felt deeply. And we thank God that we will yet again be reunited, never to experience death and separation again. May God make His loving presence known to all in the family and all who knew and loved "Grandma."

God bless.

LA: Exercise and doing things always help improve my mood but apart from taking her priorities into account before deciding which tasks to do I’m not sure what I was thinking. As to mindset, the only pattern I am aware of is a fear of challenging spouse's behaviour that made me feel unloved; I guess that can pre-dispose one to waywardness.
Longhorn: Read your links again thanks. It is now 2 months since discovery and I have been getting hugs at night, when parting and a few other times, without always having to initiate (50-50ish). This seems to confirm she doesn’t want to leave although the fog remains.
I am struggling with the practicalities of disclosure, mainly that I’d prefer to tell my children together and that’s hard to arrange. Also I feel that to tell them without warning WW would break an understanding - though she has not pleaded that I don’t tell them, or anyone. I even discussed what I might tell them ages ago, though I would toughen the message now. Any thoughts before I take the plunge?

MFZ,

I haven't read all the responses, but I'm curious, what have you learned about yourself through all of this? Even looking back to your first marriage and the affair that led to your current marriage..do you remember those strong feelings and how difficult they were to fight against, when she was meeting your needs and your then wife wasn't?

What do you think your then wife could have done to win you back? Think about this and try to be as honest with yourself
as you can..and then looking at your current marriage, what does your wife say it would take?

In that, she wants BOTH relationships...you apparently meet some of her needs, so what needs IS the other man meeting that you are not? And how could you go about meeting those needs for her so that she doesn't feel a need for OM to meet them? (one of them would be her hobby, and short of her giving up the hobby, the only other option would be for YOU to become involved with it along side her.) So are you willing to do that, even knowing OM would still be involved?

Hi MFZ,

I haven't read the entire thread but must say from the last few pages, I can gather there's been a lot of controversy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here's my deal.... you were a Ws but no longer are one. You married the OW? Now you are experiencing life as a BS? Same sitch, different characters and totally different perspective.

You are here because you are a BS, right?

Ok, if so we can help. If you have checked your WS attitude by the door, then we can certainly help. WS and OPs have another website many post at and gotta say, it is quite an evil place to visit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Back to your sitch.... as a BS you've got options. 1st order of business is to get you grounded (learn about plans A & B), get a personal support group (including your children and MC/IC - I recommend you call Jennifer C from MB for some phone counseling - she can get you a plan), secure your finances (we ain't getting younger - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), expose, etc.

Why tell your children? Because often your children already have an idea. Keeping them informed is for their safety and so they can have your trust. You'd be surprised what the love from a child can do. Don't expect it to end the A but it will punch a whallop that can scar any A for life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Make your children a part of your personal support group and you be a part of theirs. Let your support group that you will hear their POVs and ask they respect your decision because you are not able to tell all to all.

Don't worry much about 'love busters'. When a WS is in full bloom, everything a BS does is 'considered a LB in fog. Btw, the WS usually has a twisted version of love anyway....so just make decisions and plan your actions on what is best for you and your family.

Go read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs (both by Harley). Then read Love must be tough (Dobson)

Don't make demands of the WS (expect in a few vital places) but you identify then implement your boundaries (this is usually hard t/d but necessary. Those boundaries s/b a short but solid list.

Hope this helps.
L.

Zog:

I wanted to ask this earlier in your thread, before it got completly out of control.

Note to Moderator: Can we just post the last 25 pages of JustJilly's recent thread here and then move on?

Back to Zog:

You do not want to expose to your children?

Do they know the full circumstances of the start of your M?

Would it hit to close to home if you were to explain those circumstances as well?

AND if they do know, I commend you for that.

LG

Zog,

Do you want to save your M or do you just want to appease your WW? If the latter, continue on your course, and I assure you that you will lose your M. If you MAN UP, I can’t assure you that you will save the M, but you will have a good chance of doing so.

Plan A consist of being the best you can be while putting as much pressure as you can on the A. Your best tool to do this is exposure. And your best exposure targets right now are your children. Telling your children will put much more pressure on your WW than anything else you can do. But yet you are justifying and rationalizing why you can’t do it, while wasting what would give you the best shot at ending the A. Your M can survive you WW’s temporary anger, but it cannot survive the A.

In case you have not noticed this is WAR. It is neither for the timid nor for the weak. This is not to say that you will not feel fear. You will. But whether you let you fear dictates what you do will determine how this ends up.

In short, Zog, I think you should take some time to decide whether you plan to grow a pair to deal with your sitch or whether you plan to continue on Plan APPEASEMENT. I know you can do better than this. Most BS are very scared at first when they come here on MB, but overtime they usually find the inner strength to do what they need to do. I hope you experience the same soon.

God Bless

P.s. Don’t you dare leave GQII. Here you will get help from many of the best on MB who will assist you in your situation. In case you might not know the following posters are very good at this: Longhorn, Believer, Orchid, Star*fish, LovingAnyway, Ark, Lousygolfer and some of the others. You should consider yourself lucky that some of these heavy hitters have taken the time to help you here. I don’t know much about the EN forum, but I know you will get great advice if you stay on GQII. Furthermore, if you stay here I think you will get some good lessons on staying strong in the face of obstacles. For these reasons, I believe it would be advantageous for you to stay here.

Ms. W,

You have my condolences.

Folks here are right about exposure to your son and daughter. That will put some pressure on your wife to end the affair.

Lately we have had a couple of posters on MB GQII seeking help for their marriages that were the result of an affair. Each time the poster reveals this information, the thread takes on a life of it's own. Some members do NOT want to allow affair based marriages to post on GQII where so many Newbies may be reading and/or lurking.

This Marriage Builders site was created, funded, and owned by Dr Harley. Dr Harley has written many books, conducted many lectures, has a talk radio program and offers phone counseling and weekend seminars for those in need of his expertise. He has offered the Marriage Builders web site as a way for us to discuss our marital problems and apply his concepts and principles to solve them. We, as MB members, are HIS GUESTS.

To MY knowledge Dr Harley does not discriminate against anyone seeking help saving their marriage. If someone calls his radio program and wants help saving a marriage that was the result of an affair, he does not ask them to wait til the end of the program and caution other listeners to tune out. If an affair resulted in a pregnancy, either by the husband & OW or the wife & OM, he does not ask the H & W to sit in the rear of the room at the seminar. If the marriage is bi-racial, May-Dec, or a same-sex union he does not ask them to take only the left-over open counseling appts at 3am. All are treated equally.

There is nothing about an affair that is NOT hurtful. To read about a marriage that was not saved and resulted in a divorce is hurtful. To learn about the complications added when an "other child" occurs is very painful. To witness the struggle of a BS or FWS trying unsuccessfully to save their marriage is painful & frustrating. Once on this rollercoaster, we can't escape the hurt. But we do not "forbid" these posters to post in certain forums. They are free to post & seek help wherever they choose. We can "suggest" forums that may better suit their needs but we can not and do not bannish them to a place we have deemed "more appropriate" or less hurtful to other posters.

If you feel you can help these posters..PLEASE do so!! And if you feel their situation is so inappropriate you can not in good conscience help them,,PLEASE SKIP THAT POST and move on. Your condemnation is not necessary.

thank you justuss PERFECTLY WELL SAID AND MUCH NEEDED. now hopefully we can all move on to what is important.

mlhb

and i said the same thing as you are now.. if it bothers you DON'T READ IT. pretty simple.

Zog,

I strongly SUGGEST you post elsewhere.

I haven't seen it suggested yet, but, perhaps the best board for you if you choose not to leave MB altogether, might be the divorce/divorcing board. There you can get all the advice you need to put an end to your adulterous marriage.

Dr. Harley does not advise saving ALL marriages. I was just at his seminar last weekend and he stated that not all marriages are savable. I don't see how Plan A/Plan B will work for you at all. A marriage built on fantasy and passion, and not built on commitment is impossible to save. Your wife has a NEW fantasy. One premise of Plan A/Plan B is to break the fantasy up from the inside. That won't work for you. Your wife, moreso than any other WS here, TRUSTS her fantasy. It worked for her last time for 28 years...why not this time.

Maybe some sort of Plan Fantasy or Plan passion will work for you. Maybe you can manipulate her back with lies and deceipt. That worked for ya last time.

Further, as far as talking to the children I think you should. They likely have a small notion that dad was married before but they likely have no idea that it was the biggest mistake of your life or that their FOO issues greatly revolve around the fact that you and Mrs. Zog were the culmination of a sick adulterous affair. They likely have no clue that their model of commitment and fidelity were in fact not so. Your kids have learned selfishness and happiness at all costs. There were raised by two disfunctional parents that continued their selfish faux happy fake relationship for years right in front of them. I bet they likely will KNOW exactly what you are talking about IF you come to them with humility and express such failings. If you want to break the cycle tell them just how much you have learned here at MB and just how wrong you and mom were. Without such acknowledgement, they will, as you both did, drift through life believing happiness is commitment, life just happens to them and commitments are contingent. They will likely have no idea where they learned this until the day they too become a BS or a FWS that really gets their an analyzes this issues. Protect your children.

Again...just a suggestion. GQII is NOT going to work for you even if you choose to stick around. Your marital issues are beyond the experience and capabilities of all of us here. IMO, continuing to post here is the exact same as calling your first wife, your God given wife and asking her for help busting up your wife's affair and recovering your marriage. Give her a call and leave us alone. Please.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - You may think Starfish is your friend here...but she has her own agenda. She literally fed you to us here on GQII KNOWING exactly what would transpire. I can only guess at her agenda but I think it has something to do with the tone and niceness of the GQII board (which she objects to) How ironic. Feed you to us...to prove her point, hope did you enjoyed it? You could have posted for years on Emotional Needs and none of us would have bothered you ONE BIT. Now on Emotional Needs she claims it was likely a mistake..."mistake", my butt. You were her lab rat.