MrW, damning with faint praise, aka gaslighting, is a tactic we all recognize. Please stop. You're a clever man, sir...clever enough to show us any flavor of adverse opinion while seeming to extend the hand of forgiveness to those who disagree.

Sir, the decision has been made by the owners here. You are fuly aware of the spirit of that decision, as well as the written word. Please do not stoop to speaking so bitterly. It doesn't become you in the least.

I am not saying that either Zog or you are banished from GQII. You are trying to banish Zog constructively from GQII, in the legal sense of “constructively.” You and others insist over and over that Zog should leave GQII, even though he consistently rejects your entreaties. If this is not attempting to banish him from GQII I am not sure what is. Sure you can play on the word “banish”, possibly arguing that you do not have the power to do so given that you are not a moderator of this site. That is why I use the term ‘constructively’ above to capture the essence of what you’ve been trying to do.

No worries…I forgive u 2. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am NOT insisting.

Once again...it's only a suggestion.

And check your facts, Longhorn

Justuss did NOT make Zog a protected member of this community and Justuss is NOT Dr. Harley. She/they/he is a valued volunteer trying to do her/his best in light of all the obnoxious emails I'm sure have been sent his/her way. I happen to believe Dr. Harley, Steve Harley and Justuss like the boards just as they are with very little moderation.

What's next...only WS's can post to WS's. If you stop critiquing my posts, I'll stop critiquing yours. OK.

Besides, Zog needs GOOD ADVICE and even if he doesn't like my advice (prepare for the inevitable divorce) doesn't mean he has the right to banish me from his thread...NOR DO YOU have such right.

My advice is DEAD ON.

Mr. Wondering

If it’s only a “suggestion”, why do you keep repeating it ad infinitum?

Mr.Wondering, I know the facts. But thank you for gaslighting me again. Are you suggesting I can't understand them? That's manipulative, my friend. I don't think that just because we disagree on this is a good reason for you to engage in unfair tactics.

The facts are JustUss passes on information to us she gains from the owners of this website. What she tells us is from Dr. Harley. QED

We all know what your opinion is now, sir. MFZ sees your "advice" as unhelpful. I suspect he will stop seeing your words as he puts you on "ignore." If he announces that, your ability to "help" him will disappear. Will you stop posting to this thread when he puts you on ignore?

I didn't repeat my suggestion in my last post.

I merely repeated that it WAS a suggestion.

Why do you guys keep implying that I'm not allowed to post on this thread??? Even if I wanted to repeat myself again and again...why couldn't I?

Zog needs more help than either of you can offer. You guys have relied on his limited statements on this thread about his past and bought them (despite the fact that he's a foggy still wayward lying adulterer). He's repentent??? Sure he is. Then why is he still posting here??? Justjilly CHOOSE to move, why not him??? I don't trust active WS's. Waywards lie and TAKE. I hate to see you guys get used, but that's your choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Wondering

Absolute not.

I post for me.

and

others that are not ignoring me

and

lurkers and others who stumble upon this website seeking good advice in similiar situations.

Mr. Wondering

This is getting ridiculous. Mr. W and LH helped create one of the best links ever as resource for the people here at MB. They have been invaluable to many on MB. And now they are at each other’s throats. I find this to be very sad.

Guys, cool down, this disagreement shall pass. I like and respect both of you. You know better than to let this deteriorate to this point.

You're right, UVA.

I have no problem with Longhorn.

This isn't personal to me. Though I was disturbed to see Longhorn send Zog to the thread we worked so hard on together when I knew that it was pointless and damaging to Zog. It was instilling hope where there really isn't any.

If Zog and/or Longhorn want to ignore me, that's their call.

I'd never do the same, nor would I demand or request someone to ignore them.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W,

Zog may or may not be telling us all the pertinent facts. But the same applies for everyone who posts here. So to say that we do not know all the facts is to merely state the obvious. We can only go on by what has been presented to us and what appears to be the case.

It is true that we chose to help Zog. We are just asking you and others like-minded individuals to respect our choice. Instead of focusing on Zog, most of the posts onthis thread have to do with the meta-question of whether Zog has a place on GQII or not. I think this is a great disservice to Zog. Some of us think that Zog should be helped, while others do not. Those of us who think he should be helped respectfully request that you allow us to help him without unnecessary interference and condemnation.

Yes, we’ll assume that your comments were meant to be constructive and helpful to Zog. Ok now that Zog has heard you, will you drop the subject?

Mr W.,

I am sure LH will not ignore you. From his last post, it is clear that he still respects you. I am glad to see this development from both of you. Many people who come to MB will continually be grateful to both of you for your contributions on MB.

Guys,

Don't you feel it's a bit hypocritical for Zog not to let his wife go and pursue her happiness.

He did. It worked for him for 28 years.

They had a nice run.

Nobody can seriously tell him her feelings for OM aren't as real as her feelings for him.

If you love her and want her to be happy Zog, let her go. Repair yourself individually. Don't have a revenge affair and help your children learn and cope with this situation so they don't, predictable, repeat the cycle.

Damage control.

Mr. Wondering

zog

i just want to do this one post to you than i am going to bow out of this thread. i applaud you for actually reading all of it and i hope you can sort through the nonsense of it and get to the posts that are actually making suggestions of advice and ways to help your situation. i hope eventually that those posters that have issue with you or your thread will take it over to bob pure's thread and vent there. but, they may not, and in such case, i think you will do a fine job of ignoring those posts that are not helpful to you. as you see from what justuss posted, you are welcome to post where ever you want to and are entitled to the help as any of us here are. those who are perfect here and have never made a mistake should be the ones to cast the first stone... and alas, none of us are. coming from my christian point of view, if you have asked forgiveness for this sin that you committed, ie, the affair, than you are already forgiven by god and who are we to judge you? i would say you should ask your ex wife for forgiveness as well if you never have, even if you do it 30 years later. that is the one thing i wish my ex would do.

anyway, here are my thoughts: my father had many affairs. my parents divorced after 26 years of marriage and i was thankful that they did because he was an alcoholic as well. my mother remarried and has been happily married for over 20 years now. my father married one of his long time affair partners. they have a daughter, my only sister. i was 17 when she was born. where as my mothers remarriage has always been good, my father's has not. because of him of course. he can be very controlling and is very jealous. my stepmother has gone through a lot with him. long story short, their marriage is good now but it was not for probably the first at least 10 years. my stepmother has told me that she is very sorry for any pain the fact that she was with my father may have caused me. i have forgiven the pains of my past. i am glad my parents divorced and glad they are in happier marriages now. i do consider my father's wife my step mother even though she is an affair wife. i love her, i have known her for years, and she has treated me as if i were her own.

i love my sister as well, she, of course, was innocent in all of this. i do not know if she knows her parent's marriage is an affair marriage or not nor do i think her knowing if she does not know would serve any good purpose. my parents marriage was over and both had remarried within the year of their splitting up and my sister was born during that time.

now, because i love my sister and know how devastating it would be for her not to have her parents be together i would hope that if the marriage needed help people would help them. i think those here who are being so obstanent about NOT helping you are forgetting about the children. even though yours are grown up, it does not mean it will hurt them any less if you and your wife divorce. and what good is it to tell them that your marriage is an affair marriage? that had nothing to do with them! i don't think they need to know that part at all. those who are suggesting you tell them that and go ahead and divorce are not thinking at all about your children's feelings. i cannot imagine the hurt and how much it would mess up my sister if, during the hard times, my dad and step mom had divorced and she had been told "oh, our marriage would never have worked anyway, it was born from an affair, etc" good lord, my sister would be devastated!

my dad and my stepmom have both asked my forgiveness for past wrongs that may have hurt me and have forgiven and moved on. i know they have brought it before god as well and he has forgiven them too. that is good enough for me. i have even been there for my step mom,as an adult, when things have been tough in their marriage. and my mother? she is far beyond what happened over 20 years ago. if she and my dad had not split up she would be in the happy marriage she has now. trust me,she feels my step mother did her a favor. in fact, we all get together for my kids b'days, etc, and we all get along very well.

HOWEVER, in my own situation, with my ex living with one of his many ow.... well, i am still of course hurt and angry at his actions in our situation. if he were to marry her tomorrow and come here a year from now asking for help for his marriage i would probably say "you made your bed now lie it you piece of trash!" but that is because it is still so fresh for me. BUT, if i believed he was truly remorseful, (which he shows NO REMORSE at all for the things he has done), if he had asked my forgivenss for hurting me and our children and for the affairs and i knew he had gone before god with it i think it would be different. if he was truly sorry and he was trying to make right by this second marriage and end the cycle of infidelity, than i would be ok with him asking for help here or anywhere else. i think it depends on where you are at and where you are coming from.

my life has been surrounded, it seems, by infidelity. i know i want the cycle broken in my life. i want a marriage that won't be marred by it again. i want my sister to have parents who are together and not another divorce statistic. i have read and studied and gone to counseling,etc, so that i can be a good and heathy person who makes healthy choices and only has people in my life that respect me and treat me well and that i deserve nothing less than that.

part of me really wants to help you, and part of me is not sure what to think. so i am just going to say that i truly hope you can get the help you need and that you can end the cycle of infidelity and the cycle of divorce. i do NOT want to see your marriage end in divorce and i want you children to have 2 parents who are together and who can work through this. show your children that yes,affairs are wrong, but show them too how to fight with all of their being, for a marriage, and that it ain't over til it's over. don't make marriage look disposeable to them.

yes, you did something horribly wrong 30 years ago. thank god you did not have children with your first wife who had to be in the middle of that mess. don't let the cycle continue. fight for you marriage and make sure your children see that you are. you want to be able to look yourself in the mirror and say you honestly did all you could to save your marriage before you put an end to it. you couldn't do that 30 years ago, do it NOW.

pray for forgiveness and guidance.
ask for forgiveness of your ex wife if you have not already.
and fight like ******.

those are my thoughts.

mlhb

There's seems to be a lot of hullabaloo going around on this forum lately and felt I wanted to add something.

I'm not as colorful in my writings as others here and I do not have hundreds or thousands of posts under my belt. But I am a BS at almost 5 years since my FWH decided to stay with his family.

I cannot feel too much angst toward Zog. Two things stand out to me:

1. His 1st marriage was brief. If his 1st wife had come to MB and asked for advise, the lot of you would say that since the marriage is very new, count your losses and move on. I have seen this advise given many times.

2. The marriage that Zog is trying to save is at 28 years! They have already surpassed the statistical affair marriage timeline. If this marriage was less than 10 or 15 years, I would move past this thread and offer nothing to an affair marriage. However, 28 years and 2 kids may be worth it.

Sorry, but most convicts are released in shorter times and a few learn from their mistakes and become productive citizens in a community. I'm not here to chastize something that Zog did almost 30 years ago.

Don't get me wrong! Affairs are disgusting and cause heartache and destruction. My H and I watched friends of ours go through a divorce because the H had an affair. He is now married to his affair partner...going on 3 years. I cannot stand the site of either of them.

I'm not really known around here too much so I don't expect much recognition for my post. Just wanted to give my .02 worth.

I am not ignoring anyone's posts but I will not be bullied either. I am strong enough to cope, thanks in large part to the help and compassion of others here. I learn so much from stories like mltb's and others - the efforts put into such postings amazes me.
However the volume of words is swamping my ability to respond directly to all the constructive questions and suggestions. Please know that I have read and learned from them. I may answer later.
Unfortunately I cannot expose to the (adult-) children today as planned - I'd forgotten it's a public holiday here and both are away. However I did tell WW I would be doing so (I felt not to would break a promise, not a good start). It has shaken her deeply and the Reverse Babble technique was invaluable. Thank you.

Please continue posting however you care to. But it really helped me to put of few people on IGNORE. I've only done it a couple of times in all the thousands of times I post. When you have listened and responded and they keep distracting from the thread, its a good time to think about the ignore feature.

We advise folks NOT to warn the WS about exposure, but its already done, so don't worry.

Also keep working on doing some fun things together.

Went shopping together today with an excellent lunch too. Last week I put together a picnic for us to have by the river (a real novelty from me) and on Saturday a pub meal with 4 friends.
I feel so much more in control of what I'm doing since joining MB. Can't say if it will do any good at saving the marriage.
But I actually think she can see she has no future with OM so is definitely hedging her bets with me. OM has not left his wife even though he has been saying he wants to from the start - not because of WW, naturally, it was all wrong way before the A. I bet they've spent many hours moaning about their spouses and would find a lot less in common if/when they couldn't share that any more. Still, I don't want my future to be a marriage by default so lots to learn and lots to do.

Good. Plan A is a process of making yourself a better person in WW's eyes than the OM. At the same time, it's devoted to just you. In the process of working on yourself, you project a better image. So get on the treadmill, start jogging, or...my personal favorite because I've done this for 45 years +...go lift some weights in the gym and start making yourself "all you can be." Taking steps to be healthy is a win-win transaction for everyone.

Tell us about exposure. Who do you plan to expose this to and why. The rule of thumb is to expose to anyone who can reasonably be expected to put pressure on the adultery. That includes the OM's wife, Zog. She should be very high on the list. After her, you might consider your family members, professional associations your WW belongs to, church groups/congregations, your pastor, etc. If she's conducting this affair partly at work, the Human Resources Director at her workplace is another legitimate target. The big thing here is to not expose out of spite or anger. If you do, you abandon the high ground, okay? Stay calm and deliberate as you seem to have so far.

LH

ManfromZog,

Been gone a week and you are now up to your neck in MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Good for you. Take you time and sift through all of the thoughts and advice. They may not seem consistent to you, yet. But, one thing will become obvious, all want to help in saving your marriage.

I am glad to see that you are going to be doing some exposure. Do it quickly, without letting WS know if you can, and completely. Don't play games and dribble it out.

Must go but will come back and read the volumes posted to you. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL