Personally, if a man in that condition had been even the slightest of my acquaintances, I would have worked night and day to help him get on an even keel...I would never have turned him away...but that's just me.

And your psychic abilities lead to you know which of your "slightest acquaintances" are desperate and near suicidal at this moment right ?

Tell you what LH - I bet there are MANY broken BS reading this that ARE desperate and near suicidal and you don't care less about disheartening them further by supporting and legitmising an affair marriage in their faces. Don't give me them horse apples about working night and day to help the desperate. You spit in the faces of the desperate when you abet all they fear most- A-marriages.

BTW I had been on MB for a month before I filled myself with A-D's and wine and drove my speedster into a tree to try to end my pain of infidelity. I'd lost hope. It doesn't take much when you hurt that bad. An unkind word, a piece of fog, a flaunted A-marriage...that kind of thing.

They can just stop reading if offended you say ? Remember back thirty years - were YOU in any kind of state to critique what you read and didn't just after d-day ?

You have read evidence that helping affair marriages on GQ2 discourages people in Mikes position and encourages people in Joan's position ( and you can't know there is no "Mike" or "joan" reading at any given time on MB) you will continue to prioritise helping A-marriages on GQ2 at the expense of all those who are hurt by it.

You would never turn away this mythical person you say yet you "turn away" every hurting person who is hurt by your helping A-marriages on GQ2.

Bob,

As much as I respect your POVs, I gotta encourage you to stop the ranting. It isn't healthy for you or anyone else. I realize this is a highly charged issue. One that has been previously discussed with as much emotion as this one.

There will always be those in various stages of hurt. There will also be some who from an A M end up on the other side of the fence (i.e. now as a BS) and have to also go through those same stages of hurt. You want to deny them help also?

That is your choice. Each of us have a choice. Some can choose to help and others must choose to not help....but we can all choose to STOP sending negative messages to all who ask for help.

If a BS (regardless if they were previously an Xws), is now asking for help, it is very very different than a WS asking for help to retain the Ws status. Very different.

Notate the difference and if you can't work with it, that's ok but allow this one to get help. In the meantime, I am sure there are many others who would benefit from the help you can give.

take care,
L.

I gotta encourage you to stop the ranting.

One person's rant is anothers passionate argument.

What you are signally failing to see is that to have affair marriges supported in GQ is to send an EXTREMELY negative message to many who are looking for help and a very encouraging message to those in an affair who consider an A-marriage a great outcome. The fight against the support of A-marriges in public is seen as very POSITIVE to many folks who have posted. Around 77% of the 80 who have voted so far on my poll in fact think supporting a-marriges is hurtful to the vlnerable.

Your liberal opinion is in the minority here Orchid, not mine.

You want to deny them help also?

Have I said that ? Anywhere ? I want them to helped somewhere that their threads will not so likely dishearten BS and FWS and encourage WS and OPs as they are proven to do here in GQ2. My proposal will make their help BETTER because there will be likely less fighting. Has Jilly been disturbed since moving somewhere quieter for help ?

If a BS (regardless if they were previously an FWS), is now asking for help, it is very very different than a WS asking for help to retain the Ws status. Very different.

This is your opinion backed up by nothing BUT your opinion IMO. As valid and invalid as any opinion without factual support.
That a-marriage support in GQ2 after 1 year or 30 years sends a strong anti-marriagebuilding message is PROVABLE if you bother to look at the evidence. Not just opinion.

I cannot sit back while the many vulnerable are avoidably disheartened by the few being supported in GQ2. My conscience will not allow it.

If my "rants" bother you, and you are happy to continue a practice that demonstrably hurts and enourages the wrong people by turn, take your own advice and place me on ignore.

chobbs:

Sorry, I've been gone. I agree with your points.

I've had 2 consider all the imaginable possible outcomes of my W's LTA - well, I did have 2. I don't worry about them anymore for the same reasons you state, I can only control myself (maybe in particular, my choice 2 be a victim or not).

Anyway, one of those possible outcomes I had 2 face, particularly within the first 2ple of years after d-day, would have been if we Dv'd and my W had married Rat Meat. She'd still be my kids' mom. She'd still retain many of the good qualities that have made me want 2 recover our M all this time.

I'd like 2 see everyone grow from their infidelity experiences. Even Zog and his FOW/WW. Even 2gether.

I do think the mountain is a lot higher and steeper with an AM.

-ol' 2long

BP, you took my post personally. Actually, the "Mike" post was very clear in detailing the fact you and your wife didn't know about what was happening to "Mike" at the time. You didn't find out until months afterward. My comments weren't directed at you.

But...someone knew. Someone knew what was happening and was able to give your wife a very detailed account of it. If "someone" wasn't the person who saw the disaster directly, he/she got it from the "someone" who did see it first hand. It's THAT individual, and perhaps many individuals who DID know, but did nothing, that I condemn.

In addition, I set a boundary for myself, BP. A boundary doesn't obligate you or any other person to do anything at all. It's just for me. Simply put: I will do everything I can to help someone in trouble.

I'm really sorry you found yourself in that dark place once, BP.

Are you saying you were pushed there by reading a thread on "Affair Marriages?" I was lurking back when you first began posting. I don't remember any such threads, but if you were harmed, I'm doubly sorry I didn't start posting until much later. I'd have tried to be there for you through that period, BP, as I would for any person in pain and suffering for any reason. You have my deep and sincerest sympathy. Please accept my apology for not helping you at that time. I was wrong.

LH

I was pulled from the brink by some of the very people you dismiss in another thread. Those "anti marriagebuilding" people who want marriages to fail and want to banish people and who (presumably) stink up your nice neat forum with their shouting ( me included of course).

Yes, good friends knew at the time what a mess I was but did nothing. They didn't want to offend either of us by taking a stand for or against the affair. So did nothing but talk about " choice " and "follow your heart" to both of us, seperately.

See I think we are more alike than you would like to imagine LH. Your passion for defending the A-marriages is like my passion for defending those people who will be hurt by such support.

I cannot sit back and talk about peoples choice of helping a-marriages in GQ2 or people whould follow their heart is deciding how to approach this issue. Those decisions are all about THEM. What about those poor [email]b@astards[/email] who are standing where you and I have both stood, LH ? Shaking, crying, starving themselves at the very edge of the abyss, looking desperately for some sign than their universe is not broken for ever.

However skewed has been my message this has been my stand - let we who are mature and functional enough to make the choice choose for the greatest good. Not some dogma, or issue of pseudo-freedom of association.

I stand between that Oak tree I drove into and their automobiles, waving them away as best as I can. Impotent but trying to make a difference.

See I too, cannot do NOTHING, Sir. And so we must disagree.

Isn't it curious that one side of this argument complains the very mention of the phrase "Affair Marriage," is harmful to some betrayed spouses...and they keep right on posting to threads that keep the subject alive. They are, if their ideas are correct, making CERTAIN some are harmed. How's that for being caring? Whew!

Those on that side of the question are absolutely certain a betrayed spouse in an "Affair Marriage" cannot use Dr. Harley’s principles to recover that marriage. That’s an opinion that might or might not be true.

What those people don’t want you to know, folks, is that they could prove that theory by simply being quiet and let the train wreck just play itself out. They say it's inevitable, right? If they’re right, they don’t need to say or do a thing. They don’t need to make a single, solitary post.

Incredible, isn’t it? What could be simpler? If they are correct, all they have to do is hush...and both such marriages currently known to be on MB will fail. But...is that what people on the other side of this question are doing?

Hah! Not hardly.

In fact, they’re posting to Zog’s thread with thinly veiled “advice” contrary to Dr. Harley’s principles hoping Zog will become despondent, leave MB without getting any help and lose his marriage. They miss the point that if they continue to do this, and Zog’s or Jilly’s marriages fail, they will have failed because they didn’t get the help that would have saved them. If that happens, the folks on the other side of this issue will NOT have validated their theory at all. They will only have made sure another marriage fails.

Actually, those folks aren’t interested in letting Dr. Harley’s program work or fail of it’s own accord. Whether Dr. Harley’s principles have any validity in an “Affair Marriage” isn’t any of their concern. What is becoming increasingly clear is that the overriding consideration on their side is their preconceived notion of how things should be on this board. If they were convinced Dr. Harley’s ideas wouldn’t work in Zog’s or Jilly’s case, they would sit back and (when the marriages failed) these folks would feel fully entitled to say, “See? I told you so. Na na na na na naaaaa…

In fact, those people are scared to death Dr. Harley’s principles WILL work for Zog and Jilly both. They can’t stand the thought of that happening, so they’re doing everything they can to make sure the program doesn’t have any effect by obstructing the process; demeaning the married partners who have come here for help; and attempting to drive off those who would otherwise help with insulting insinuations, mockery, and bombastic rhetoric.

That’s the way some folks are. Personally, I think you must examine these folks very, very closely. You see, to them, Zog, Jilly, and their spouses aren’t real people. To those who want Zog and Jilly shunted off to the side, Zog, Jilly, and their families are no more important than paper dolls. They’re just puppets about whom this is just an abstract discussion. The folks who feel this way don’t give a da*n about the human beings whose lives will be affected if those marriages fail. They don’t care if the lives of any number of people in Zog’s and Jilly’s families are SHATTERED. If these folks can bust up those marriages, those folks will feel vindicated in their jihad. The witches will have been turned out.

Well…some folks will protest…Zog, Jilly and their affair partners caused pain and suffering in other families as well as their own, albeit years and decades ago. See, they say, this is just Zog and Jilly getting what they deserve.

What? Since when is there any virtue in heaping MORE pain on top of what has already endured I’d like to see that in the Bible. Show me where God demands an adulterer suffer after a divorce has happened. What you'll find is God forgives those who have strayed.

I’d like to see the idea of making additional suffering in cases like these promoted in ANY theological book. I’d like to see where it is recommended in any ethics textbook. You know what? The feeling that more suffering is okay is motivated by a sordid need for some kind of revenge, and it’s just not right.

I have to wonder if the people who don’t want Zog or Jilly here really care about people at all. Oh, I know…they say they’re only doing this to protect you, the betrayed spouse. You are too vulnerable, they say. You might be dispirited if you even know there is a chance an “Affair Marriage” can succeed. That’s called a patronizing attitude, by the way. What they’re actually saying is you newly betrayed ones just aren’t quite good enough. You’re not quite as equal as the rest of the animals in the barnyard.

You know what. If I were you, I’d be concerned if these folks can feel righteous in the way they discriminate against Zog and Jilly, you might worry you’ll be next to be discriminated against. If they’ll do it to Zog, they might find you to be unworthy of respect and support tomorrow. I hope not, but you still should worry. When only a few people want to dictate who can be in a certain forum, who can post without interference and who cannot, we all need to be concerned.

Some of them over there want Zog and Jilly banished to the EN Forum. However, even they admit the amount of advice and support over there is inferior to that on GQII. Someone used race in another thread as a metaphor to illustrate what’s going on with the suggestion to banish these two folks to EN. The individual who suggested that was subjected to immediate scorn and ridicule but that person had a point. The concept of separate, but equal, schools for black and white folk in this country was debated fifty years ago. It was determined there was no validity to the argument morally, practically, or legally. To complete the allegory, there is no legitimacy whatsoever to the idea Zog and Jilly can get “equal” treatment in EN. It just can’t happen.

Personally, instead of disparaging newly betrayed spouses, I think those who come here demonstrate they’re tougher than the average simply by coming here in the first place. They show toughness when they begin Plan A, and often graduate into Plan B.

This program is not for the faint of heart. Dr. Harley’s principles will completely fail if they aren’t enforced in the face of conflict, hostility from the WS, and trepidation about doing things that force the WS to face the consequences of their adultery.

A person on another thread insinuated the other night that I was actively engaged in an “Affair Marriage” and that’s why I was willing to assist Zog. He was gaslighting me, trying to convince me that I was dirt; that I wasn’t speaking from the highest of motives and, in fact, I had a vested interest in “supporting” Zog because I was just like him. The truth is, I’m divorced and have been for 33 ½ years. I am, in fact, a victim of an “Affair Marriage”. My ex cheated on me 34 years ago and I had to have months of professional counseling just to put me back together well enough to function in society.

My ex married her partner in adultery one week after our divorce was final! One little week…seven days. My ex had to get a special provision inserted into the divorce decree to get an exception to the state law prohibiting such a thing. Can you imagine???

Frankly, if there is anyone here who has a perfect right to be depressed by just noticing the fact “Affair Marriages” sometimes DO succeed, it is ME…but I refuse to give in and let the horror rule my life.

I believe you other newly betrayed ones are at least as resistant as I am. You’re probably better than I because you’ve had the guts to get this far. You’re not second-class citizens. You’re the best.

And that’s where I stand.

Bob-


Did Jilly and Zog not feel the exact same way when they discovered that the person that they thought they could trust betrayed THEM in the same fashion you (and I) were betrayed?

What makes their pain at the subsequent loss of their relationship any less real than your own...or mine? Its ironic, I'll definitely grant that...even karmic to a degree. But it still doesn't negate that what they're feeling is every bit as real as what you and I went through. Should they have expected that this was possible, even likely given the start of their own relationship? OF COURSE...but that still does nothing to negate the fact that it DID happen, or that they're still feeling that same sting of betrayal.

If their presence causes you pain...simply don't go to their threads. Don't open a post by that person. There are a number of threads I avoid for similar reasons...

Justuss has provided what MB's stance on this is for this forum...and that's where we're at now.

Bob, way back (28 May, 11:08) you actually addressed ME! If I thought answering your question would save a single marriage I'd give you an answer. Some folks here want to help, others want to swamp my thread and deny help. Perhaps the latter would prefer I re-register under a new name, hiding certain facts in my story, to get that help.
MOM has not left his wife so by HELPING me you might indirectly help save a virtuous BS's marriage. More than that, MOM's principal stated reason for staying is that his wife might commit suicide - her brother (MOM's former best friend) killed himself (not related to marriage problems)! So by helping me maybe you could save a life too - assuming MOM's story has any truth in it.
The phenomenal commitment of so many posters here astonishes me. I hope some will continue to offer me help. IGNORE seems the only option if I am to have any chance of responding to it.

and what's your agenda MFZ....what can you accomplish here that you couldn't acomplish on a quieter board???? Not a friggin thing. See, I am beginning to suspect that your story isn't even true... that you are just some poster that had a bug up his or her butt after the JJ thread... and now you have decided to prove a point. I have a pretty good bull s detector and it goes off every time you open your mouth.

Latest:- My wife says she wants to work at saving our marriage. There has been no contact for about 2 weeks (I think that may be true). We have not yet agreed an NC letter so still not at recovery.
Visit to British Museum together tomorrow so still working at Plan A. Wish me luck, those that can.

nothing but hot air. LH, the champion of the A marriage.

MEDC;

There is a rather lengthy post where people can blast away sharing opinions on affair marriages. Perhaps you should stay away from this particular thread, I'm not sure what YOUR AGENDA is here...?

As of now, there is NOT a "quieter" place designated nor required.

thanks for the suggestion...I am content posting my thoughts as I see fit.

So lets just be honest then, your agenda is to make Zog as uncomfortable as possible?

thanks again for your thoughts Lexxxy.

MEDC

I have now invoked IGNORE where necessary.

goodie.

MEDC-

I'm thinking perhaps you missed this post from Justuss, so I'm re-posting it here for you:

Justuss wrote: