Thank you Marsh, but you didn't really have to do that.

Man of Fog knows he's a troll

AND

Sir Longhorn, in his current state of mind, would likely even support trolls with whatever their ambitions/goals are. After all, we can't just presume a trolls purpose is to disrupt MB and cause turmoil....that would be a disrespectful judgment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(sidenote - this is sarcasm...I KNOW Longhorn cares about MB as deeply as I do...we just happen to vigorously disagree on this affairaige issue and I am concerned about him. Additionally, I could be wrong about the Troll thing. When my wife first arrived here Pem2334 was convinced she was her FWH's OW. It's a tough call to make on the internet, but I've personally been right more than a few times)

Mr. Wondering

Marsh, a troll would have revealed himself by now. They can't help themselves. Review Zog's thread and see if you can find anywhere he's trumpeting the virtues of an affair marriage or adultery in generally. Show me ANYWHERE Zog has expressed glee that he found a partner in adultery and that their way is the best way. That's what trolls do, you know.

Do you remember the treatment Jesus gave to the Pharisees with their hidden agenda in John 8? I think you'll find it thoughtful reading, sir. Take out your Bible for a little review of expressions of God's love and forgiveness, rather than repeating specious accusations. Look at 2 Samuel too, Marsh. God may even condemn one, but then He forgives even murder, rape, and adultery.

If you review Zog's thread, Marsh, what you'll find instead is a wistful lament that MB didn't exist back when he was in his affair because it would have helped him achieve NC with his affair partner. You'll find expressions of remorse and a clear sense Zog understands what he did was wrong.

He can’t go back 30 years and change it though, Marsh. What would you have him do? Do you want him to destroy his current marriage to satisfy some need on your part for revenge? I hope not. I think better of you than that.

Ruining another marriage only achieves the ruination of another marriage. How will that affect your recovery one little bit, Marsh? How would Zog’s continued pain make you feel better about yourself? I think you need to consider this carefully. How about a little forgiveness as God forgives you for your sins?

LH

The main, best known marriage counselling organisation in UK is called Relate. Both us have seen Relate counsellors separately and once together (the latter experience was horrible for her and possibly I talked far too much).
It was comforting to me to talk to someone alone and, in spite of her reluctance to "speak to strangers", WW found that "helpful" too - by that I mean it seemed to reinforce her foggy views. The messages she came away with were: (1) you have a right to happiness, and (2) you need time.
I think that is because Relate are not determined to save marriages, just to encourage communication. They seem to do this in a passive way (what do you think? how do you feel about that?, etc) so the feedback you get is what you want to hear.
Does anyone have knowledge of better UK-based counsellors? The time difference certainly makes the Harleys a very difficult option (pity they don't have an offshoot or franchise over here) unless they have an email service.
Longhorn: It's mid-evening and my daughter is with us so I can't spend too long here right now. Your points will take some time to respond to so I'll have to leave that until the morning.
Thanks also knewbetter.

If you think there's any possibility you might be able to connect with SH, I think you should explore it. You can inquire by clicking on the "Counseling Center" button at the top of every MB page. They really are superb counselors. We all recommend contact with the Harleys whenever we see a newly betrayed spouse. Something to consider, okay?

Just grabbed a second or two to check what's happening here - thanks for that Longhorn.
Marshmallow - I put Mr W on IGNORE because I found his comments were not helpful to ME. Others are still free to read him if they wish. Your idea of circumventing my preference is pretty sneaky.

LH,

Aside from my quoting Mr. W's posts, I have said zero on this thread or any of the other threads related to this subject.

I see your mind is just as made up about this subject as Mr. W's is. And you are both acting w/ integrity according to what each of you believe.

I quoted Mr. W's post b/c I think his hunch may be a very valid one. And one that I wanted you to consider.

Good to know you did.



If by "sir" you mean, a lovely woman, than I am indeed a "sir". LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your post.

~ Marsh

I am so very sorry. Please accept my sincere apology. I did not know you were a lady instead of a gent.

I considered, and rejected, what MrW's suggests a week ago, and for the reasons I stated. Now, will you, in turn, consider what I showed you? If you disagree with me, what troll-like things has Zog done?

LOL Zog, now what? I guess those of us who have folks on IGNORE will have to add IGNORE to the people who quote the people on IGNORE.

I hope that list won't have to expand too much, believer, but I'll do it to preserve what respect I have left for those folks.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That's cool that you're making use of your ignore button.

And I'm making use of my my quote button.

Calling my use of it "sneaky" might be equal to someone calling your use of the ignore button, "cowardly".

*shrug*

~ Marsh

<sigh>

Bye, Marsh

No, need to apologize for mistaking my sex.

I have considered what you've said and your POV.

Which is why I said, I thought you were acting w/ integrity.

I am divided on this issue.

I side w/ Bob Pure's position that those seeking help for their "AM" ought to do so, elsewhere.

And I agree w/ much of what you say, Biblically.

And I am concerned w/ what Mr. W is concerned about.

~ Marsh

Marriagecare ( click here) Are excellent but I warn you are catholic sponsored so you might get a even sterner an [censored] kicking from them than you got here.

You can try intervewing more relate counsellors. I saw three, and one of them was half decent. The other two were worthy middle class grads. Useless.

Not being funny but Relate are probably going to be your least judgmental option and well, folks like Together Alone from the UK swears by them. Try more counsellors. You don't have to use your local branch either.

Also their appraoch of salvaging the practical parts of a relationship, rather than restoring the "magic" like MB may well work better than MB. I wasn't taking the p1ss before when I said MB probably wouldn't work for you two.

Dr Harley will work on A-marriages, clearly, but he tells anyone that will listen that its much much harder owing to the circumstances of their initiation. Read the thing Cherished posted on GQ2 for example.

It is interesting that ManFromFog brought up the Relate Counselling just now. I found the above highlighted language suspicious. When you go to the Relate website it says on the history page that it hasn't been called the "Marriage Guidance Council" since, off the top of my head, 1980. Pretty out there fact to add.

I found such detail/fact to be extraneous and suspicious. It's what liars do...providing extra details to make a yarn more believable.

Additionally, in case one didn't know, TOW is a UK website. All the posting times are on UK time. I was emailed that little nugget. I don't know why Longhorn presumes a troll would have revealled themselves by now. She/he has been soooo successful to date, why??? Only now is He/she getting called on it.

Last point...read the thread. ManFromFog does not come across as a 58 year old person at all. Which makes the 28 year old figure odd when you also consider the fact he gave away his paid for house and all his money (which he indicated he had saved PRIOR to his first marraige) as being that plausible. Conceivable yes, credible. Who knows? I can only guess.

I'm not stating this as a fact, merely my opinion. This is an opinion/discussion board after all and we have been targeted by trolls many times before. Besides I'm being ignored when I was one of the MOST helpful constructive poster on this thread.

Mr. Wondering

This is an opinion/discussion board after all and we have been targeted by trolls many times before.


Lol, did you see where I confessed thinking YOU a troll??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

KnewBetter:

Actually No...I have you on ignore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Justkiddin'

I've revealled a couple times I no longer practice much Tax Law. I'm sort of retired.

My wife and I own some businesses now. Our presence is required a lot of times...but often times we can sit in our office and post periodically and other days...all day, whenever we want. Our working hours are strange too...we are open late into the evenings.

I always snicker when somebody posts that everyone here is a hypocrite because we obviously post at work "stealing" company time. I find our boss (us) doesn't mind us posting at all.

We are considering selling the businesses, moving out of Michigan and then going into divorce law. It's a gruesome area of the law much like bankruptcy law. I would consider a my own small boutique firm that ONLY represents BS's. Of course, I wouldn't represent affairriages either but they would likely be a HUGE moneymaker, maybe I just charge them double. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Nah, I don't NEED the money to live on...so I could afford to be very selective and I think word of mouth about such integrity would spread fairly fast. Problem is...not as much flexibility like owning a business where you can generally come and go as you please AND I wasn't fond of litigation back in the days I was with a big law firm and had to cover. It's a lot of sitting around waiting on judges for 10 minutes of actual work...then you're supposed to bill the client for 4,5,6 or even 8 hours depending how long we had to wait (while the whole time working on other files and billing those clients for a couple hours here and there as well...that's the game I experienced in big firms...bill 'em and then bill'em some more. Their mantra..."you are paid to read, wait, think and speak, whenever you read, wait, think and/or speak about any client it must be billed"). I was very happy to be out of that racket.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I forgot you're supposed to bill drive time AND think while driving.

Mr W,

I hate to point this out, but if you add 28 to 1979, you get 2007 which by my reconning is close to when Zog's marriage broke up. Suggesting that he may well be acquainted with both terms.

I hate conspiracy theories, because they NEVER lead anywhere just a waste of time.

Mr. W I like what you have to say, and Mrs. W as well. I have no problem talking to WS or BS. Some people bother me and clearly I cannot help so I stay out of their threads.

I wonder why this thread has taken this turn. Zog admitted up front how his marriage started, and clearly you BP and others have every right to abstain from helping him. However, this site does not limit who posts here and who can get help IF anyone wants to help them.

So why are all still posting here, if they have decided they will not help Zog? Opinions have been stated and duly noted. What is going on here? What is your goal?

JL

PS: I also don't care much for witch hunts and this seems to have turned into one. First Zog cannot be helped because his marriage began as an affair, and now he is a troll. The first was no secret, and the second is just idle conjecture.

clearly you BP and others

JL, I TRULY BELIEVE my posts to Mr Zog are helpful.

They may not appear to be politically correct, but to offer hope that MB will work in his situation as it does in marriages with a somewhat sturdier foundation is unfair IMO.

I really do think that the pragmatic counselling of Relate in the UK will be best for his situation.

What attracted Mrs Zog to Zog was his OM-attributes. His ability to meet her needs in the way an OM does : devoid of practical burdens, in something of a fantasy world, like almost all affairs are.

That their subsequent marriage, once practical burdens DID manifest was by his admission somewhat flat and passionless seems to reinfornce this view IMO.

So now, mrs Zog has her "needs" for fantasy affair-ENs met by another OM.

How can the workaday practical Zog out OM the new OM ?

To apply Dr Harleys methods here is to give false hope IMO JL.

Please think about it. MB can help a BS become the best spouse they can be, but mrs Zog is clearly rapt by the attributes of an OM who does for her what Zog did back in the day. There are no tick boxes on the Harley EN questionnaire for OM attributes.

Thats why I posted. Not all apparrently negative advice actually is negative.

It is clear (because of IGNORE) that I am not relevant to the "debate" here. For those trying to squeeze in some help, thanks for persisting.
I did not want to appear to defend my actions of decades ago - that WOULD be offensive to the kind folks here. I was once provoked into stating what I tried to do to offset the harm but have now been asked to apologise to my XW. Let me explain why I cannot.

XW and I agreed NC between us 30 years ago, mainly to protect her from any further vacillations. By that time she had another man in her life, though I still proceeded with donating my assets to her in acknowledgement that I had initiated the whole thing. About 5 years after the decree absolute she called my office, using her new married name, to congratulate me on a business success that had made the news. Apart from that there has been NO CONTACT. We have no friends, relatives or anything in common. I have no idea where she lives nor any details of her life for over 20 years. To track her down to apologise would break an undertaking and might resurrect bad memories for her.

Your loss mate. I gave you good advice.

oh sorry

** you are ignoring this user **