Longhorn - thanks for the Churchill quote, makes me feel at home. You are right about telling the children when things are stronger (hopefully). By the way, WW asked me to email OM he needed a different helper for the next hobby event - a good sign, but possibly a double bluff of course.

Any suggestions/comments on my Plan A, as follows please?
1. Doing lots of "together things" that I now initiate (an LB failing previously). Probably a bit too intensive to maintain at this level, which anyway might get a bit wearing for her.
2. Remembering to live more "in the moment", enjoying who I'm with rather than solving unrelated problems in my mind - a habit developed when overworking (and another LB).
3. Staying fit and healthy, though that was never a problem.
4. Just being more aware and appreciative of all the good things in my life.

By the way, what do folks think about introducing WW to SAA? Is it too soon? Should I just leave it lying around and see if she picks it up? It would, of course, mean she might see there's a plan, including a Plan B!

By the way, the British Museum trip was a great success. We met our DS in town for lunch first, finding him happy with his job, girlfriend and work. Our DD came over for dinner afterwards so a whole day of good things occurred.
By the way Believer, DD thinks that dress I bought should be fine - they sometimes share clothes so their tastes are similar.

MFZ, but in spite of you and your XW’s No Contact agreement she DID contacted you 5 years after that to congratulate you on the business success… She viewed that as a big enough exception to break the agreement, so how much MORE reason YOU have now to make an exception to sincerely apologize to your XW. That can be a very healing and necessary step for both you and your XW you know... It’s NEVER too late to apologize…and from personal experience I can tell you that if there is bad memories from ones past (even of 20 or 30 years ago), the unresolved issues & pain of such memories will remain whether or not a person is consciously reminded of those memories or not. But an apology (if it's meant sincerely) can be very healing and can help a person getting pass a traumatic event (even if the event occured years ago)... Maybe, just maybe...that's what your XW needs... Who knows?

Therefore, I suggest tracking down a postal address for you XW and send her a letter where you shortly tell her that you have now for the first time due to circumstances in your life, started to realize how much pain you’ve caused her 28 years ago and that you sincerely want to apologize to her. Make it clear to her that you still want to respect the agreement between you, but that you felt it was necessary to contact her for this purpose. Then leave her a postal address where she can respond to you in case she wants to acknowledge your letter (also state that in your letter), but that is totally up to her.

Zog,

I wanted to share something with you from personal experience. Ten years after my first husband left me (and started dating my "friends"), we ran into each other at a music concert. He apologized for his past actions and the harm he knew he had done to me. I cannot tell you the burden of pain that was lifted in that moment, the lightness of being that occurred. I felt as though a great deal of bitterness and bad memories faded and lost their power to keep hurting me. I was already remarried and had two beautiful children....and a happy life....but those words still had great healing power for me even after ten years.

You may not think your XW would want to hear those words....but I wanted to share what they meant to me. I think if you really want to end the affair-dynamics in your marriage, and if you want it to be uncompromised and tainted from the past (at least from your end, because your wife would need to do this process as well)....that you need to whatever is possible to heal the wounds from the past.

I've told you how healing it was for me....but my XH told me how healing it was for him too. He said that he had wanted to say those words to me for a long time, and the relief was actually visisble on his face.

Something to think about.

Suzet/star*fish - OK, I'll see what I can find. If I guess the area/town I might find something.

Good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you both, your personal experience was crucial star*fish. I guess any hurt would be minimal now but the chance of making some amends, however slight, is worthwhile.
Initially tricky to find her as I didn't know her location. Then remembered her horse-riding and eventing hobby and got lucky through that. Amazing what a difference the Internet makes. I hope I've got the right person (!) but I'm pretty confident I have. I am now drafting a few ideas.

I strongly suggest you to post that letter before you send it. We can help you de-fog it so at least your former BW may THINK it's sincere. We are this far along and star*fish and others have to talk you into it after you disclose your xw contacted you 23 years ago to congratulate you on a business deal. Then again, maybe she contacted you fishing for an apology or an opening to steal you back. Was she flirty or clingy and needy???

Since ManFromFog is ignoring me, he may just have to come back to this later or someone else can copy paste.

Mr. Wondering

ManFromFog:

Again assuming you are real...I've got another thought on this letter to your XW.

In my opinion, we (the collective we at MB) should not advise you on content. This letter shouldn't be something you scribble down in a few minutes. YOU really need to think about this one. Go deep. Express yourself.

This letter is between you, God and your ex-wife. NOT us. YOU are writing it as an act of repentence, which is NOT something you should get too much help on from the internet. That would cheapen it. Speak with God, counsel with your pastor/minister...whatever, just don't have other people actually write it.

Post it, yes. But, specifically seek a yes or no vote on it. If it's bad...YOU go back and try again. WE shouldn't help write this for you (that includes Longhorn by email).

YOU are hereby challenged.

Mr. Wondering

Sorry, I don’t mean to muddy the waters and I haven’t been able to catch up on any other responses but as a ex wife myself it would be disruptive to receive a apologetic missive from my XWH. After 25 years of no contact I’d be wondering why on earth he was thinking of me at all and I’m sure my husband would be none too thrilled either. Star, that was pretty neat that your ex was able to express his remorse but accidentally running into someone is entirely different from hunting them down on the Internet and leaving contact info to boot. That just invites more contact and what’s the point? Given the situation with Zog’s marriage right now it could reflect poorly on him.

Zog, if you really feel like this is something you want to do could you just get delivery confirmation or something like it (don’t know the English version) and leave it at that? No contact info, just an apology if you must.

I also had a thought about the idea that your marriage is somehow different than any other at the onset. Most if not all couples marry on the fumes of courtship… passionate, hopeful for the future and on their best behavior. Reality sets in when Dreamboat can’t manage to throw his socks in the hamper and Suzie Homemaker turns out to be not so much. The birth of children causes HUGE changes in a relationship. This site has had hundreds if not thousands of men complaining about lack of SF after children arrive.

Affair marriages may have the added burden of adjusting to blended families, possible financial pressures, legal problems with exs and so forth but it doesn’t sound like these were a consideration in your sitch Zog. Honestly, I think what you and your wife went through in your earlier years is par for the course for most married couples…nothing new under the sun.

Plan A helps you to be the very best you so that your wife can fall back in love with you again. This idea that b/c you started as an affair it somehow means that what is happening now , that she still looking for a nebulous “OM” so you can’t compete is nonsense. If that was the case none of the MB advice would be valid. Almost 30 years of living together since your young courtship means you have to step it up a bit that’s all. She can recover her feelings for you, you can recover your marriage, but it’s work…be diligent, be patient. Be your youthful charming best as you were in the beginning as described in Plan A. You can sort most all the other stuff out later.

P.S. Mr. W, it would be interesting if you did try Family Law on for size…that’s quite a departure from the tax gig.. Good luck!

IMO, there is a HUGE difference between a normal "courtship" and an "adulterous relationship". I know you know better, knew better. Knowing you I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't quite mean to pretty much call it the same thing. A three party relationship dynamic, a wife, husband and mistress is leaps and bounds different than one man, one woman...dating.

Although the circumstances MAY lead one to believe the damage done was minimal, I'm sure those 8 months that ManFromFog waffled and cake ate living at home AND continuing to decide between his wife and his adulterous affair partner was NO cup of tea for his ex-wife. Sure the scars may have healed...but a heartfelt apology and repentence is still due and owing.

Further...I think that MOF's damage and pain he visited upon his xw far exceeds the pain HE's enduring (though others have attributed a great deal of pain to him...he's not really expressed any). MOF certainly can grasp that this is the karma bus on a return trip. He KNEW his wife was an adulterer before and thus knew she'd do it again...potentially. His xw was, I'm betting, young and idealistic. She was CRUSHED by this and it likely has affected/effected the rest of her life.

As far as the letter of repentence...God didn't give us an out on the act/condition of repentence IF you feel that recepient wouldn't care anymore. God directs us to repent. If she doesn't care...at least HE wrote the letter and actually followed up repentent words (which despite others claims he's said them here a bunch I haven't actually seen many other than paying her off in the divorce settlement...which sounded like guilt, not repentence) with repentent ACTIONS.

Just my opinion...no "covert agression" intended

Mr. Wondering

Hi, MFZ. I think you can start approaching your wife with HNHN or SAA but it has to be done carefully and gently. You have some degree of commitment from her and it would be best, I think, to build on that by using POJA tactics. How about broaching the subject and be very sensitive if she begins to become uncomfortable. It’s very, very soon to be talking relationship and if you push it, she’ll back away. Coaxing her into doing the EN list might be a great first start.

Doing the things you’ve mentioned in your Plan A seems fine to me. What additional things can you do to make yourself a man among men to dazzle and attract your spouse? I believe what you are already doing plus anything else you can think of, coupled with courtesy and consideration for your wife, can be highly effective. I think it may be too soon for overt affection, but use all your observational skills to judge when it’s appropriate. When she can accept it, I think you should offer.

Can you expand the number of hours a week you spend with your wife? Review Dr. Harley’s suggestions in this area. He recommends at least 15 hours of “quality” time to concentrate on each other every week.

Also, since the holiday season is coming up, can you set up a nice, long holiday (notice I didn’t use the American word, “vacation”) to…heck, anywhere you and your wife can concentrate strictly on a happy holiday and on each other? This is also something Dr. Harley recommends.

I think it’s a positive step that your wife asked YOU to email the OM about him needing a new helper. Do you really feel it might be deceptive, or are you just making sure you don’t get too optimistic too quickly? Did you suggest to your wife that she make it a formal NC communication? It might be an opening for you.

I’d like to reiterate my suggestion you consider using the Harleys for MC. I know the time zone is a big barrier, but Steve Harley would be so good for you two. He’s worked wonders with so many marriages that have been in trouble. Click on the “Counseling Center” button at the top of every MB page and take a look at what they offer. Their thoughts about phone counseling versus face-to-face sessions are encouraging. Dr. Harley doesn’t even DO anything but phone counseling any longer. Give it strong consideration, okay?

Hang in there, MFZ. Things are headed in the right direction.

IMO, there is a HUGE difference between a normal "courtship" and an "adulterous relationship". I know you know better, knew better. Knowing you I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't quite mean to pretty much call it the same thing. A three party relationship dynamic, a wife, husband and mistress is leaps and bounds different than one man, one woman...dating.

Yes of course. I just realized I look upon this from the outside… I have no experience with marrying a OP but still I can’t imagine the internal thought process is any different from a nonA marriage. My point is that people don’t think they are marry “OP’s” they marry a person….Everyone starts out with hope and passion, excepting gold diggers, mail order brides, citizenship seekers most likely.

ALL marriages regardless of start are guaranteed to be touched by trials and tribulations. The honeymoon phase must end, children cause shifts in a marriage, we get ill, older and so on. Infidelity can enter the equation but it is still a potentially fixable situation, we know this.

I suppose I was struck by a post (can’t remember who) that inferred that Zog had no hope of recovering b/c his boring old self just couldn’t compete with "exciting" OM. That’s just antiMB, not true at all. I have to go get much blonder in a few minutes so please forgive if I misunderstood your point, I don’t have time to get into the rest and I probably completely rambled, sorry!

If I remember correctly, nearly 1/3 of those 30 blissful years Man From Fog's serial cheating wife has been having her affair.

Just to level set. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also, it wasn't a "courtship". MFF has told us it was an adulterous affair.

Can you imagine if we started calling all adulterous affairs on this board "courtships"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,
Jo

*** You are ignoring this user ***

KB - Hmm, that's interesting; I think I'll keep revising my draft letter anyway but I'll think very carefully before sending it. It was either BobPure or Mr W who wrote that stuff - I can't check any more.
Longhorn - I take your points about SAA and going too fast at present on the emotional stuff. Time together is OK and we have a few days in Cornwall soon. A holiday in Ireland is a possibility, I know she wants to go there. ("Holiday" indeed, you'll be applying for British citizenship next!)
I have no reason to suspect a bluff on the substitute helper, just paranoia I guess.

Hmmm.....I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with Mr. W. Repentence, compensation, remorse, redemption.....those things have nothing to do with anyone except the person seeking to find them. If they are rebuked....well, that's part and parcel of the process.

KB, I know a WS who married her affair partner. The FBS and this OW/WS had children together, but deep animosity, and a horrible relationship that lasted for fifteen years. As part of dealing with the affair dynamics that had plagued her new (compromised from the start) A-marriage....she reached out and gave this man some (for lack of a better term, even though it's psychobabble) CLOSURE. For the first time in 15 years....these two parents could help co-parent their children without all the baggage and pain. It's truly amazing how revealing that she had recently become of the victim of the same thing she victimized her husband with. Maybe she never truly understood....but I'm glad once she did....that she told him. They actually joined families for Thanksgiving. Now I know that is probably not the norm....it is true...I swear.

The other personal experience that I have....my father married his affair partner and has been married for 18 years. I have twin half-siblings. I honestly believe that my parents (despite the volatility of their relationship) never really intended to divorce....they just got caught up in the "threats" and drama that was the hallmark of their passionate but flawed marriage. In fact at my mother's funeral....my father said weeping "This was never supposed to happen" and I don't believe it was....and I don't believe he'll ever be truly happy.

Even after they were divorced....my parents talked to each other almost every day.....might sound strange....but I do think they were the real loves of each other's lives. They became the friends (EA) that they had lost while they abused each other.

Shortly after my mom got cancer, my fathers A-wife delivered twins. I'm not sure who made the first move, but the combination of the new life and the inevitability of my mother's death....created a reaching out on both sides. Both my dad who is a doctor and the OW who was a nurse came night or day during the darkest hours to help my mother cope with the pain and make sure I had the resources to take care of her. (and yes.....I struggled greatly with my feelings that the OW was like a "vulture" waiting in the wings for my mother's death).

But please understand that I've never met anyone who could match the graciousness of my mother. We talked about our feelings about my father's marriage as she neared death. She made me promise not to hold onto hate, she begged me to watch out for my new siblings. She loved those little babies and she embraced them....not an easy feat....but heartfelt. There was a lot of healing that went on because everyone got to talk about what happened, despite the tragedy.

I realize these things seem strange....but with some searching....I'm sure folks can dig up the fact that I've posted about some of this before....it's not new or invented.

Mr. W is right.....if Zog is sincere about dealing with the "affair" part and moving forward in the "marriage" part....he has two fronts to deal with....the past....and the present. I'm not sure Zog can do anything that will truly satisfy anyone who will always see his marriage as an affair....but it's just as hard for some us to accept FWS's as "former", yanno?

It DOES happen....there ARE WSs onn this board that have "earned" the "F" in their title. Are there A-marriages that can earn their "M"....I dunno, but for me....it can't be done without some closure towards their victims. I can't remember a time where finally being vindicated didn't matter to me.

Oh Star, I do remember you posting your Mom’s story…it is such a testament to the woman she was, no wonder you turned out so great! I agree that closure is a good thing but I personally don’t need it. It was all a long time ago and I have built a great life without him. We didn’t have children (same as Zog) so that does make a huge difference in my opinion. Not all people are so lucky and contact is necessary. It’s odd but all this thinking about a very long ago marriage is making me feel old!

It is really my thought that all exs need to be held at arms length, there is too much room for error and mischief. Zog needs to consider all angles, I trust he’ll figure it out.

Sorry all that the use of the word courtship in my earlier posts caused consternation. I didn’t intend it that way I was in such a hurry, but it does extend the idea that people involved with people don’t use labels, tags and terms as we do on MB to define themselves or their situations. We use a lingo, a shorthand for the different roles we (willingly or not) play. We have a different "worldview" of infidelity than other people. The good part about being familiar with the MB program is that we have hope.

It is always my hope that those who are working the MB program, those who are in recovery and beyond don’t carry the mental tags of BS/WS FBS/FWS OM/OW/OP forever. We can be and in most cases are all so much more than that after all. This is an interesting thread and I have great hope for Zog and his wife. Zog, you don’t realize this but your thread has actually managed to entice me a tiny bit out of MB semi-retirement <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

MFZ, with respect to everyone, I understand there may be some therapeutic value to you and to your ex-wife if you reach out to her to apologize and put paid to that period in your life. However, it’s been 30-odd years, and I think it can wait a little while longer.

Friend, as you’ve read in other threads, my ex-wife had an affair and subsequently married her partner in the affair. All this took place 34 years ago this month; we’ve been legally divorced 33 ½ years now. I was 25 when we divorced; she was 24. Frankly, MFZ, if she came to me today and apologized, it wouldn’t mean a thing to me because she’s…I don’t know exactly how to phrase this…well, she’s just not quite real to me anymore.

Far more than half my life has been spent divorced from her – I don’t even know what she looks like because I haven’t seen her in over 20 years. I doubt she’s the slim blond girl she was when we divorced. I’m certainly not the guy I was -- you know how that is. Once our kids got into their teens, there was no need to even talk to her, and I haven’t in so long I wouldn’t know her voice if I heard it. If she walked up to me on the street, I wouldn’t know to whom I was talking. Nothing she would say would be quite relevant to who I am now, and to be reminded of the bad times just wouldn’t have any beneficial effect.

I suggest you work on saving your current marriage and put any resolution with your ex-wife that you might feel necessary on the back burner. Deal with the more acute problem first and solve it before tackling one that has lain dormant for 28 years. If you run into her accidentally some day as in the examples, fine. Let it come from the heart.

But I’d wait until the present problems are identified and dealt with before reaching out to address ancient history. Not right now. Until you and your wife are well into recovery, perhaps for several years, I just would “let sleeping dogs lie,” as the saying goes. Perhaps at some point in your future, you and your wife can work as a couple to resolve those long-ago issues together. That might be a good way for her to resolve things inside herself too.