Starfish,

Your post really stood out and hope it clarifies this issue for many. You said it succinctly. Also, your moving experience also shows us how one can cope even through the darkest of times.

Thank you for your post. I know it took great effort but want you to know it is greatly appreciated.

Mahalo,
L.

I'm very surprised at you Longhorn.

So saving his arriage, right now, is more important than his relationship with Christ, more important than eternity. ManFromFog isn't promised tomorrow. Repentence takes more than just giving his exwife a home and some money. Do you truly believe he's good with God right now???

Further, I agree with Star (wow...lol), taking care of the past is a good first step for the future. He's got to turn his WH status from his first marriage into a FWH before he can ever hope to claim for himself his BH status right now.

But, of course, MFF can't hear this argument because you emailed him and told him to ignore me (which is obvious because you begged him to email you after he stated emphatically he wouldn't ingore anyone...then, 12 hours later or so...he's ignoring everyone). Real nice. His loss. Fortunately, I post for me and others that might be reading along.

Still think ManFromFog is a troll. It's only idle conjecture if I'm wrong. I also don't post to this thread until it's bumped to the top...so accusations that I'm keeping it going are futile.

Mr. Wondering

I have written a draft but I'm sure you're right Longhorn - this should not be done hastily, it needs to be done right.

I have a solo appointment tomorrow with an MC (from “Relate”). WW would attend if I insist but is not keen. She has always objected to “talking to strangers” so this is not an unexpected attitude. I am inclined not to insist (PoJA?) but to take things slowly. I will try the “emotional needs” ranking next, if she’ll cooperate.
WW said today that things are happening “on your terms, as they always have in our marriage”. I think she was referring to me having control because of the “threat” of exposure to our children (I’m almost tempted to expose simply to remove this perception). I don’t think I’ve particularly had things on my terms previously.
Specifically the discussion arose because she is not sleeping well at present. Apparently I was snoring a bit last night (because I’d had a few beers with a friend that evening). When I asked why she hadn’t gone to a spare bed she said “I didn’t think I was allowed to.” I explained that my only “terms” were that there should be just the two of us in our marriage (my limit) and that I was simply focusing on being more the kind of husband I would want if I were in her shoes – I wasn’t threatening or demanding and she should tell me when she thought I was. She said she needed time to adjust to the idea that I even wanted her to stay.
In the meantime things are seemingly going OK. Mainly normal to friendly relations; goodbye, welcome back and goodnight hugs (we didn’t do that before); and a good amount of time together (I haven’t counted but would think it amounts to 15 hours a week).
I’m inclined not to do much (except Plan A stuff) or discuss our marriage too much but to give things time. Any thoughts?

Well, that sounds pretty good to me, MFZ. She's resentful and is letting you know it, but most withdrawals are quite a bit more contentious.



Two key points, I think. She’s resentful, and that may be all of it, but she may also be “telling” you that you may have not always have been as considerate of her feelings as you might have. I’ve seen that happen in many long-term marriages. You know…I think she’ll react very positively to POJA. I think she’ll appreciate the fact that you aren’t, in fact, issuing orders around the house as she sometimes perceives, but that you want to work WITH her on the issues.

Hmmmmmm, would you describe yourself as a hard-driving businessman?

Anyway, the second statement is a caution to go slow, but she seems to be accepting the concept instead of rejecting it.

Keep up those 15 hours of alone time, and don’t forget the holidays where you two can focus on each other. I think doing a strong Plan A and doing what you’ve said are the best things you can do.

You haven’t said it, but you apparently understand things didn’t get sour in your relationship overnight and things won’t get fixed quickly either. You’re showing good patience. Good work.

Thanks Longhorn. Sometimes I feel resentment at the childishness of her attitude but knowledge of my own past mistakes perhaps makes it easier to bear.
I wouldn't describe myself as a hard-driving businessman but can become determined to see things through. I think a problem she has with me is that my upbringing was one of constant debate and I still find it hard to leave ideas only partially explored when we talk. That's why it might be better to write her notes sometimes.
Yes, I have always accepted 50% of the responsibility for the state of our relationship (since the early days of our marriage) but always argued against accepting 100%. I honestly feel it has always cut both ways. But I could have risen above it and tried to be the husband I am now trying to be.

MFZ,

About the 50% of your marriage...and not accepting responsibility for the 100%...we can easily focus on this...and forget to ask ourselves...

Am I giving 100% priority, focus and effort to my half of the marriage?

Is that what you mean? If we're busy measuring the percentages of our partners, there's no way we're minding our half, is there?

Not rising above anything...by being true to yourself, your half.

LA

Affairs don't last...I suggest you accept that FACT, and let this go...Allow yourself to go through the he[i][/i]ll of withdrawal...TURN FROM YOUR SIN, REPENT, GO AND SIN NO MORE...

You know what strikes me as so odd in all of this? When I came here as a WS, which, btw is WHAT ManFromFog IS, no one encouraged me to continue MY AFFAIR...THANK GOD...I mean seriously, when I got here I was hurting, just like MFF...OM had dumped me afterall...Why is it that none of you "good samaritans" did nothing to help me recover my affair?

Just Wondering...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

MFZ,

That statement "I didn't think I was allowed to." from an analytical standpoint has quite a load.


My job is analysis of communications.

So, from that one statement, I will offer you this. I have not fully read your thread, and do not know your wife's position at all. But I will give you some insight about this type of statement when given in response to the type of question you asked.

This response is offered to provoke an in-depth conversation about your behavior. In this case, she wanted to explore what I would guess is behavior that in the past she sees as quite controlling. You should know that she was wanting to let you know that she is feeling that she has to ask permission for basic tasks, tasks that she feels are ordinary. She has said this in provocation, it is overstated, yes, but the underlying thinking on her part is that she is being restrained and she is feeling that she should not be so restricted in her life.

The statement was made to provoke you, either into an argument, or into a discussion - your reaction would make the difference here.

YOUR reaction is the key, remember that. She followed it with something interesting, being that remorseful statement about being surprised that you would have her there. She has communicated to you here that she does have a measure of guilt and remorse over her behavior. That was your second opening, where she told you she feels badly for hurting you. She does want to talk about what is happening on a deeper level.

There are two things going on in her mind: she has some anger or issue over what she sees as feeling controlled or bossed by you, and she also feels badly about her current behavior.

On the whole, this shows movement in the right direction, I think, because she is wanting to talk about it.

Tread lightly though, because she is angry. How you two go about talking will hold the key.

SB

Perhaps because you were still married to MrW at the time you came here? And that your marriage to him was still recoverable? You WERE a WS to him at the time...you were still his spouse, and you were wayward.

MFZ is no longer married to his EX-wife. He's not her "wayward spouse"...he's not her spouse at all. Nor has he been so for over 28 years. At this point, he IS in an 'arriage' as ya'll like to call it. But he's got nothing to do with his ex at this point, and the use of focusing on a 28 year over marriage is nil. Nothing to be done there.

So the "good samaritans" as you call them are posting to him in the hopes of helping him fix the marriage that its in front of us. The one that IS recoverable.

Telling him to work on that old marriage is pointless.

Question...disregarding that this marriage is an "arriage" for just a second...

At what point does the 'marriage' end with a divorcing couple? We've told countless people that they don't date until the divorce goes through...because THAT is when the marriage is over. Right?

Just because his previous marriage ended in divorce (EVEN DUE TO HIS AFFAIR) doesn't change that, does it? I personally don't understand the distinction. If a marriage ends at divorce...it ends at divorce, right?

If that's NOT the case, why would we caution people NOT to have contact with a former ex? If the marriage continues on after the divorce, then it wouldn't be infidelity if the ORIGINAL marital partners hook up, right? Of course, that's just horse puckey...we know better than that.

So when does a marriage end? It shouldn't matter WHAT the cause of the end is, it's still ended at divorce, no?

Wanted to add an additional question...If MFZ's ex-wife is remarried now...is she cheating on him?

What would we tell a 'FWS' who showed up here wanting to re-connect with their FBS after a divorce due to the affair, if that FBS was re-married? If someone had an affair, divorced their BS, but then later decided to rekindle that relationship with the (now) FBS, but found that the FBS was happily remarried?

We'd tell them that they ruined their marriage, that that marriage is over and they need to deal with the consequences of their wayward actions, right?

Owl,

The reverse is an actual poster here on MB currently...vicker...she divorced her WH really fast upon finding out about his affair...and he married OW. Then BW had an affair with him. People here advised her to stop the affair and tell OW (just had an acronymic crisis with what to call her...XOW...MOW...BWOW...comes close to bow-wow, eh?).

This real case was a condundrum...because we don't really see his new marriage as legit...and I ran up against advising her to pursue him in anyway because he's still wayward...and she was wayward (proudly stopped the affair and exposed, thank goodness)...

And I offer this to you, Owl, for consideration. This isn't a 28 year affairage...this is, I think, two years from when she filed for divorce. I could be wrong. Close.

And I do think that vicker and her XWH have to deal with the consequences of their wayward choices...only I choked at advising her, got myself in a quandry...her best interests (awesome ownership)...and what marriage I would be a friend of...only her original one. Couldn't get myself to support that one given the creephood of the other half of it...

LA

Listen Owl, my whole point was, that AFFAIRS END...MFF IS in an AFFAIR...Those END...Withdrawal ensues...I NEVER told him to go and reconcile with his BW...I'm just saying, that he needs to accept that his 28 YEAR AFFAIR IS OVER...He needs to begin PERSONAL recovery, NOT "marital" recovery, IMO...

Mrs. W

Very insightful and interesting post, Schoolbus.

MFZ, I suspect that Schoolbus has identified some important points you should address in your relationship with your wife. You might call yourself "determined," instead of a “hard driving businessman,” but the line between the two is very, very thin when you’re talking about personal interaction. If you bring your negotiating and supervisory techniques home with you from the office, you can inadvertently blast someone else’s world and never notice.

Something many people never understand is how they are perceived by other people because we rarely get any feedback. Your wife is trying to give you that feedback, and Schoolbus and I (to a lesser extent) are also. Frankly, just from your posts today, I can see if you aren't careful in choosing your words when you’re interacting with your wife, she can easily interpret some of your behavior as controlling. Be on guard against that, okay?

Schoolbus has shown you how you can interpret the motivations behind things your wife tells you. Were I you, I'd pay close attention to what Schoolbus has told you. Figuring out what other folks are thinking is extremely difficult, but if you pay attention, you can get a strong hint as to what is on their minds by picking up on key phrases.

I agree. Your wife is sending you messages you need to pick up on and explore. It’s not too late to go back to them either. A simple, “Honey, I’ve been thinking about what you said about...” will suffice. Now, pardner, be careful to leave the determined businessman out of those discussions. You’re just a man and a woman speaking together.

BTW, her willingness to discuss things relating to the affair can be used to coax her out of her distress about talking about problems before strangers and get her involved with you in MC. For instance, you can begin by admitting to some things you know you haven’t been as good at in your marriage as you might wish. Then you can turn the discussion to one where you hope someday you and she can speak in a non-threatening forum to discover what additional things you could become better at...things in which you aren’t even aware of a deficiency. Hit it once, and move on. People’s feelings don’t change in one day, but the seed can be planted and cultivated on another day.

MFZ, I’m getting an impression communication between you and your wife hasn’t been of the highest quality, probably for a long time. It’s a difficulty one sees in many marriages, even when it’s lasted 28 years. I suspect if you work on communication and yourself while you continue a sterling Plan A, you’ll find the task of recovering your marriage to be that much easier.

********

Schoolbus, your expertise is a valuable resource here on MB. Please lend us your knowledge whenever and wherever you can, okay? I often see hints of messages one spouse is sending another in the threads out here, but I don’t have your training.

Thanks again, lady. I think your perceptive comments are “spot on” as MFZ’s British neighbors say.

I can't join (or read most of) the great AM debate but is there a good reason to change my moniker to ManFromFrog?
LA: Yes, when she complained I used to counter with my own grievances - stalemate. I'm trying not to react to everything she says but focus on what I can DO. I need practice at not pursuing "debates" too far. [P.S. I have been legally married for 28 years, together for 30 - the decree absolute took 2 years prior.]
SB: I don't think I've been controlling - she always enjoyed great freedom - but I think she feels dominated in discussion/argument.
She feels restrained now in respect of her right to continue her affair and keep her marriage/lifestyle. And this also affects her hobby - I haven't asked her to give it up but it's impractical to continue it and agree no contact as he is the "main man" in this country for the activity. I'm not really sure the hobby by itself (i.e. without OM) is so important, she has many other interests.
She may have some remorse but still communicates entitlement (perhaps less than before). Her surprise at my wanting her to stay she expresses not as "in view of my affair" but "because I didn't think you cared".
Anyway thanks (and Longhorn), I get the message about HOW we talk - she probably thinks I just like winning arguments (it's not my intention).

I believe you can count on it! And your solution is_________?




Can you two get involved in another hobby together?




Exactly! She's telling you that you weren't meeting her emotional needs, MFZ. You've got the key now, MFZ. What are you going to do with it, sir?




Okay, so who had the last word in the last three arguments before your discovery of the hobby affair? I'm going to bet your wife would say you did, whether you did or not. It's all about perception, mister, and she perceives you in that way. Again, what are you going to do about that?


You have multiple opportunities to fix what was slipping away in your marriage, MFZ. I challenge you. Are you going to let them pass by?

Yes, I can see this is a much bigger LB than I realised. Actually we don't have a lot to argue about normally but I will have to get used to not pursuing my points too far when we do and ensuring she gets at least equal "air time".
We do a fair amount together but there's scope for more and to be more closely interacting when we do it. We'll be away together next week.

Believer, if you are still viewing, today is WW's birthday and the dress (my birthday gift) does look good on her. Problems are: "when/where could I wear it?" (I'll have to find suitable occasions), and "is it too young for me?" (she'll take girlfriend's and DD's views on that). But she loves the style and is delighted that I thought she'd look lovely in it, which she does.
Dinner with DD, DS and partners tonight then we're away at our holiday home together for a week. It may be harder to post while away but I'll try to stay in touch with my laptop - apologies if there's a delay responding.
I note there's a reduction in activity on this thread now, presumably because things appear to be on a quieter and steady course at present. I'm hopeful.
A problem coming up at the end of this month is that WW is competing in a team at one of the events which OM is administering (I will be present). I'm not certain whether this situation will arise again but she has now decided not to undertake admin. duties in future.

Friends approve, she's keeping the dress - I'm afraid I may have set the bar a bit high re. future birthday gifts!

Very good job. It's nice that she likes the dress and that her friends approve. And it's very good that you got a dress that she thought might be "too young" for her, much better than too doudy.

Continue what you are doing. As you do things together, you should find things to talk about, and spend less time debating. Also look for long term things to plan.

Someone was here posting about what Steve Harley said in counseling, to the effect of asking your wife if it wouldn't be better to be stay married to her children's father, if it could be a happy marriage. And then saying that you have found a plan for that.

I still think that part of your wife's problem is the kids moving out on their own. As someone who was devoted to her children, that was a HUGE adjustment for me. I spent several years floundering.

I started my own business and have become very involved in volunteer work, and that has done the trick for me.

Look for dreams and goals the two of you can pursue.