That's a really good way of introducing the idea of a plan - thanks.
I think you're right about the kids moving out too, I'm sure it played a part.
We'll have to give some thought to our goals - that seems like another good idea.

Things with WW appear similar to how they were before discovery but a little friendlier with some appreciation of my Plan A efforts. I have no signs of contact but neither do I feel the effects of withdrawal. Patience and a gentle/gradual introduction of new ideas (such as Believer's) is my current plan.
In the meantime can anyone recommend good threads that might be worth me following, especially regarding good Plan A stuff and verification (e.g. vehicle tracking)?
I remain concerned about the expected encounter with OM in a fortnight.

In the States you can buy a good GPS for about $350. You put it in or on the car and it will give a realtime feedback of the car's location and the time. It is certainly easier than other ways of spying. I wish I had invested in one.

Here is one from Ark

Have you seen the post below? It is one of my ark^^ favorites.
Quote:
________________________________________

I wrote this to familymatters about plan a this am...and then I read sindy post on plan a...so I"m threadjacking myself...

putting out there some of my musings of plan a..


FIRST thing is that I strongly strongly believe that before you even begin plan A...that you make a time limit for it...with plans to go to Plan B...
that for plan b to be effective you must have a good plan a...and for plan a to be effective and have the stamina to hang in there and give so unconditionally you must have a time frame in mind for plan b.....

Plan A is ALL about the assumption that the WS is still in the affair or in contact...
this is your map to navigating those treacherous waters...

it also is your big moment to diffuse all the excuses WS are prone to use to justify their behavior and choices....

and more you can diffuse their blame...

the bs is "always depressed"
the bs "always wants to talk about relationships"
the bs "is controlling"
the bs "yells all the time"
etc....

the more you remove those things...and the more you remove yourself from any powerstruggles of insanse things...

he said she said..
etc...
the more your disengage from arguements..again the more they have look at their own actions and choices....

here's what I told familymatters..One of the biggest mistakes that people make in plan A is that they begin to meet their spouses needs....and still hold on to great expectations of reward and reinforcement from their spouse....

plan a is ALL about learning to give and do for a bit with NO expectation of ANYTHING in return...

the giving of self and gifts with no strings attached....

I have quoted the silly add campaign for some perfume in the 70's here before...but I think it fits....

It went like this ...

"if you want to get someones attention...
whisper."..

plan a is like a whisper of behaviors and actions...
plan a should not be huge demonstrative expressions of love and romance...

WS are incapable of accepting those things...
part of that is that their actions at the time of continuing an affair are NOT loving and lovable...
and they KNOW it..
sometimes they know it better than their BS...who still want to use words like love to them...

so they get resentful
or shut down
or depressed..
or it solidifies their belief that they are so "bad" or so far gone...it feeds into their excuse and defense of unworthiness...

plan a is about filling the home with love and light in other ways...

it about an upbeat environment without the deep doom cloud hanging overhead..

it is about a home filled with children's activities and joy when applicable and it is about inviting and drawing the wS into those times and activities....

and even when they refuse to come in to the joy...the joy goes on without them...

BS that do a good plan a...say they feel like their WS didn't notice..or only was receptive now and then...and then their involvement and particpation increased...

WS that were handed a good plan a...say they watched and noticed EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING....even when the bS thought they didn't notice a thing....

WS are in great turmoil...and human nature is in conflict to take ALWAYS the path of the least resistance.....

the path of least resistance...is withdrawal and wallowing in self loathing and pity..

the path of least resistance is the OP..for they can not judge and force the WS to see their own actions...because they are as guilty as the other....

so plan A'rs.....need to stop ALL relationship talk..
all talk of love...

you do things that are subtle...
like put a CD in that the WS likes...and just enjoy if yourself...and if they enjoy it also...so be it..
even better yet when it is a blast from the past CD...one that speaks of a history...without blatant insistance that the wS remember this or that....

just history...

the person in plan A...needs to be upbeat and charming...they need to see that the BS is capable of fun and joy...because if all they ever see is a BS lost in the pain..then it will solidify their belief that the pain the WS has caused will never go away...and no one can stand to see the pain they have inflicted day after day...(unless psychotic or sadistic)

the person in plan a needs to engage family and friends in fun activites always always always inviting the wS to join in...
they need to see that things can and could be normal again....

plan a can be leaving a love note...but more impressive a joke...
buy an old farside book and make copies of the really really funny ones....
or the old calvin and hobbs.......
and leave those posted about...
WS seek false joy and laughter....
bring them back to real laughter.....

plan a'rs need to learn to babble back to the insanity that Ws say..and give the babble no leverage or "to die for importance"....

plan a'rs need a time limit of doing plan a with a concrete plan when to go to plan b..
the better the plan b..the better the reality of the consequances of plan b...

make plans to things the wS likes to do..
baseball games..
movies
etc..
and when they dont' want to go..
still go and do them..
be up up up up beat...

draw them to you and your home like a moth to a flame...

work on yourself
find an outside interest that gives you some relief ..

expect nothing nothing nothing from the Ws within a limited time period and free yourself in to the ability to give and do for your spouse better than you ever had....

WS are not used to getting thing with no strings attached....
it will confuse and baffle them...but when they try to use the old "your pressuring me excuse"..it will fall on their empty ears..cause they know that has not been the case..

take them a coffee expresso piled high with whip cream...at work or bring it home to them...and leave it for them..
don't badger them to thank you
don't badger them to tell you how much they liked it..
lay it at their feet and walk away whistling...
find the joy in the act of giving and doing and not in the receptiveness....

hard hard hard hard it is......
but set the time frame and go for it....
anyone can do anything for six weeks..
(except ATKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )

and pray for Gods Grace to enter your heart and home...
pray for serenity...
make you house the home where you and the kids and WS would want to be....


become strong...
become confident
become engaging and charming...

realize that YOU the BS are not lovable or desirable..based on your spouses giving or taking of love...
that you stand alone in this world..
lovabe and desirable...inspite of your spouses...


that's why plan A is all about each and every encounter and glimpse in to you and your home life being as engaging and attractive.....


plan a is all about doing what you can to end an affair....
plan a is built on the presumption that they are in contact...
that's why your contact needs to be better and with more value and depth....

this does not mean that you don't set boundaries on what you will tolerate in your life..

you will not "babysit" the kids so she can go with the OP...

you don't condone any contact..
but you don't powerstruggle it either...


if you think your spouse is going to go out with op don't make it easy for them..don't watch the kids...make plans first...and leave him or her with the kids...etc

hope this helps some..
ark

Thanks believer, Ark's post gives me a better insight. I'll look into those GPS devices too.

Hey, MFZ. Good to see you again. In addition to the GPS tracker, I have a link to various surveillance methods and tools in the link entitled "Spying 101" in my signature area.

MFZ: kudos for the dress !! It was a bold move - it took courage & a leap into the unknown (I'd start thinking about Christmas gift now though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). You have inspired me to do something similar (I don't know what, yet, but I'm sure it will scare me).

Ark's post is bang on.

Good luck & keep us informed.

b.p.m.

LH: Hi, read your spying link and have used HomeKeyLogger successfully to get password to WW's private email (no A stuff there). Have identified a recording GPS tracker with magnet for external attachment (easier to fit/retrieve) and hope it's effective if I get one (Minature Magnetic GPS Logger, model VTS02 - any reviews?). I'm hoping to intercept her itemised mobile-phone bill to check for contacts since NC agreement (I'm sure she'd use her existing mobile as she knows to delete messages and call history as required). If there is contact I will get the GPS. But I'm not sure what else I should do - confront her with the fact?
By the way, anyone tried a "deleted text reader" to read deleted texts from a mobile SIM? Not sure how to tell if WW's texts are stored on the SIM or phone - how can you tell?
[See http://www.spyequipmentuk.co.uk/ for both devices]

BPM - read your thread. At least you seem to have kept your sense of humour which I'm sure will help. By the way, I lived in the Manchester area myself during my teens (more likely to support Salford RFU than ManC though). Still visit ex-school mates there occasionally. By the way, the dress was by Lilly Allen from New Look - a tiered, ruffled silk thing but only stocked in the Newcastle, Dartford and Marble Arch branches for some reason). Wish I could post a pic here, it looks great. It's gonna be hard to equal that for Xmas though.

I don't know anyone who's used that particular model of GPS tracker, MFZ, but the technology is so well settled these days, I suspect any of them that has the features you want will be fine.

Once you establish the fact there has been contact, I'd say you must look at confronting her again. Now, of course you should evaluate the type and frequency of the contact. If there were three contacts, of 1 minute duration, and they were all early in the bill period...that's different to me from frequent and steady contact all through the period. But it's your decision.

I've never tried a deleted text reader but I vaguely recall another post where it was said they didn't work except on very specific cell phones.

Help please! There HAS been contact via mobile phone since we agreed NC last month. I know this by intercepting her itemised invoice. I don't want to reveal how I know about her calls. A GPS tracker will now be ordered!
I have to go away for a few days to attend to our business. All I can think to do is to explain before I go why NC is vital to saving our marriage and ask her to write the formal NC letter (presumably she will try to avoid doing this).
Any refinements or better ideas welcome!

I think you must confront her with the new information, MFZ. You don't have to tell her how you know -- you just tell her you do. She already knows she's broken the agreement and it's not a matter where you have to "prove" it to her. If you decide to have a second D-Day, it's going to be critical to get the NC agreement and a clear understanding between the two of you that ANY contact is unacceptable.

MFZ,


I read this title and I had to post here. That is exactly what my WW wants also. Isn't it amazing just how demented the thinking of one involved in an A becomes? My WW actually came right out and told me 2 days ago that she does not want a D, but wants to stay here with me and keep seeing her MOM co-worker. I laughed. It's not funny, but it is insane. The answer to my WWs request is most likely D papers.

MFZ,

Don't forget to inform OM's W as well, of the contact. (Just supporting LH's post.)

LA

I agree LG, that's what I'll do.
Journeyer - I can forgive what she's done but can't accept the path of M-destruction she's on. I don't want to get to D unless it is necessary. I'm not staying at any cost but 28 years of M is worth a bit more of a fight, to me at least.

LA - thanks for reminding me. that's important too, OM's W must know.

I have confronted her with the "fact" of her ongoing contact. No conclusions yet.

MFZ

So sorry to hear about your news of broken NC. You've got a good team backing you (& the noise seems to have calmed down a bit now) so you're in good hands.

These A's are so similar; like journeyer I was drawn here by the thread title as it rang true for me (WW was even angling after an open M at one point). Journeyer, have you got a thread ??

As my counsellor would say: this feels very healthy - you have your boundaries & you're enforcing them.

Thanks for dropping by my thread. My sense of humour (dark & twisted as it is) is a valuable tool &, if you have the stomach, I'm always happy to share it.

I've not gone in for the snooping stuff myself - I'd rather get D'd than do that but that's just me, I've relied on the fact the F?WW is bobbins at telling lies (which she is) - what sort of gadgets are you in need of ??

Good luck,

b.p.m.

p.s. 28 yrs is worth fighting for IMHO.

It was rather a long (too long) discussion that occurred last night when I challenged WW on breaking her NC agreement. She didn’t ask how I knew nor challenge it, effectively confirming the fact. Perhaps she’ll think I guessed and she’s been tricked into an admission. Anyway, these are the main points that I can recall:-
1. I don’t understand what I’m asking her to give up.
2. The sudden cut-off I “demand” is what is so terrible, she would find it so much easier to withdraw by degrees.
3. She felt manipulated, out-manoeuvred and that I seemed to have every angle covered.
4. My logic suggested she had to give up all the friends with whom she has a close relationship (several girl- and mutual men-friends listed).
5. She wants to keep her life together – her home, friends and numerous activities – so she doesn’t want to end our marriage.
6. It ended with some humour and some hugs.
Point 3 is not a testimony to how smart I am but to the collective wisdom of you folk here at MB; but I may have earned a few minus points for being too-clever-by-half, again. I’m sure points 1 – 4 are straight out of the WS handbook!
I shall keep smiling, and snooping. I understand your feelings on the second thing BPM but knowing and facing up to the facts of what’s happening with WW really felt the right thing to do. It may not stop contact and so enable recovery to begin but I feel it has improved the chances.

You don't have t/b a doormat. Once you have stated your boundaries and she steps on them, then it is time to STOP being nice and enact plan B.

1st you have t/b ready. R U? Is your mind and heart in sync? Ready for a rough ride? Finances in order? Make sure everything you can lock down (in your favor) you do so. Protect the interests of yourself and your family.

Know that the WS is NOT a family member or friend. However, it is the WS who is holding your W hostage with you as bait. R U ok with that? If not, what r u going t/d?

L.

Orchid, I don't think I'm being a doormat. These recent contacts are not that many or that long. Yes, she is backsliding but I expected it and that's why I snooped. There are many signs that she recognises the A must and will end and that she wants to stay married. OK, so we're back to square one but I'm already much better adapted to the rigours of Plan A and I'm sure it's much too soon for Plan B. I am ready for Plan A, Plan B and Plan D if necessary - and if the last is what it comes too I hope my Plan A will have made me a better candidate for a future relationship. I just don't think that's inevitable - this marriage CAN be fixed, though it MIGHT not be.
BPM - click on Journeyer's name then on "Show all user's posts".
Good luck Journeyer - I can't offer advice except that reading more relevant threads here may turn on a few lights for you.