ManFrog,

MB principles are much more firmly based upon love and commitment. Honoring vows and viewing love as a choice.

Your wife won't respond to that. Her, and you, react much more to "feelings" and being happy and DRAMA. Your affair marriage was built up that, lies and betrayal. A recovery of it should follow suit.

Thus...I suggest more deceiptful tactics. Recovery nation or some other website suggests the 180 degree plan wherein you seemingly detach from her. Even make it appear you are interested in or really dating others and moving on. Make her chase you. It's a much more underhanded approach that should be more effective in your situation.

I don't know what else to tell you. MB's just not the way to go. Perhaps somebody "nicer" will post to you the 180 Plan list.

Mr. Wondering

MFZ:

I was out of the home when my parents divorced, and I still took it hard. No doubt your children would as well.

Anyone that says otherwise is naive.

Some folks are still afflicted by acute small-mindedness and a distinct lack of Christian kindness, huh MFZ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Stay with your plan, MFZ. I would strongly…very strongly…recommend you find a good counselor whether you two appear to be progressing on your own or not. A good one can facilitate the process in areas where neither of you are even aware there is a difficulty. Think about it, okay? I don’t quite understand your comments about Plan B but I’d keep it under consideration, were I you, pending the results of your discussion with your WW.

I thought I was on ignore LH...hopefully I can earn that back...heck, last I remembered you had half the board on ignore.
And yes, LH...some people do have that affliction...I hope you get over it soon. Your distinct lack of Christian kindness already resulted in some BS being harmed here. Your willingness to do this here on GQ shows your lack of Christian kindness towards those that are offended by an affair marriage being helped in such a public place.

Hello Pot!!!

It wasn't me that totally discouraged ManFrog from the very first step towards repenting (a heartfelt contrite thorough apology to his first wife) in this very thread. How "kind" was that?

Wouldn't you agree, as a Christian, that ManFrog should repent to his "controlling and needy" first wife whom he betrayed in the most "unkind" and "unChristianlike" manner possible?

Longhorn...I am very disappointed in you. Where is YOUR finely honed Christian kindness towards Man of Fog's ex-wife, the REAL victim here?

Mr. Wondering

Another thing

Ya' know what makes this all so troll-like.

ManFrog is in early recovery now...why not pop up a new thread on the recovery board instead of bumping up this old ugly thread. I still don't like it because the recovery board is still here in the infidelity section but that's not my call (I'd have him go to the emotional needs board, a quiet place or the divorced/divorcing board).

Why here...where there are quite a few men and women (including lurkers) whose spouses are deep in the fog calling them "needy and controlling". Why here where there are men and women (and lurkers) whose greatest fear is that their WS's are going to leave them and marry their affair partners and have a supposedly solid, worthy of saving, 15 year affair marriage.

It's either a troll or a total inability to recognize and appreciate the pain such tread(s) bestill upon others.

Mr. W

Zog,

I know a woman who left her husband and married her affair partner. Their six children showed the wear and tear. When her affair partner/new husband began to cheat on her....one of the things she realized was that many of her current marital problems were planted during the initial affair and linked to that past. After ten years in the 2nd marriage, and two affairs by her current husband....she decided to revisit the past and start again. In order to stop the cycle of affairs....and give her current marriage authenticity....she had to explore her own feelings of entitlement and selfishness at the beginning of the cycle. She decided to recontact her ex-husband and mend some fences....for the children....but also to create a new foundation from which to understand why her new marriage had reached the same conclusion as her old one, and end the affair dynamics. The result as incredibly healing for everyone. She began this process alone....because it was something to do that didn't depend on the help from her still fogged and uninvested husband. Eventually....he had to get on board....but I believe it was empowering for her.

Thank you Scott. These people are not naive I'm afraid. Of course my children would be greatly hurt by their parents' divorce and it would be selfish not to try to avoid that. MK inflates this to "traumatised" in order to sneer.
Mr W sets himself up as an authority on who will/will not benefit from MB principles. Our moderator is our link to the Harleys on this and I believe no such authority has been delegated to Mr W. Naturally Mr W is also on my ignore list again as another who has persistently highjacked my thread to pursue his own (not MB's) agenda. Longhorn tries again to remind him about Christian forgiveness and redemption but finds himself in a religious war.
Thank you anyway LH, if I could find a good councellor in the UK I would certainly try. We are not as well provided as you in the US I think. Our experience with Relate (the main MC provider here) was not that great.

Star*fish, thank you for sharing that story. I have no problem about contacting my XW and doing anything she would like me to do that might help her. We had no children and were married for only one year; she has been re-married for 28 years now with 2 children.
It might help me to make contact (I'm not sure) but I am very unwilling to impose on her just because I am in trouble. I think she could probably handle it OK but I doubt very much she would benefit from it. She was strong about NC with me at the time so she could focus on her new life.
Thank you anyway.

When I say "revisit" I don't necessarily mean that literally. I'm not suggesting you ring her doorbell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For instance, one of the things I felt was important when my H cheated was that he demonstrate an ability to look beyond his entitlement and selfishness. For that reason, I requested that he go to confession (since he is Catholic) and to do 100 hours of community service as part of compensation. Whether your exwife can see the changes you've made after all this time....is not as important as whether you do these things. What act of contrition can you perform in her name? What demonstration of kindness can you do for other people?

You see....back then...you were young, selfish and immature. And you married someone who had the same qualites.....and apparently still has some. You can't change her. You can change. And if you're lucky....you can find a better foundation for this marriage. You can't change something you don't acknowledge. Your wife is the same woman you married....she is doing to you....what she once did with you. Whatever justification you all used back then to make it okay.....she's still using to rationalize it today. (I'm unhappy, in love, bored, neglected etc etc). If it wasn't wrong the first time....it isn't wrong now....that's why....I want you to go back and visit the time it all began.

You keep dismissing the importance of a short marriage with no children. The importance has to do with what shaped who you and your wife are today. You might not have had the skills or maturity to end your previous the right way then....but you've got them now. How can you impact your exwife or your world in a positive, anonymous and humble way? Let your wife see a better you.

One more quick thought. If you think about it, the thing that contributed to the demise of your first marriage, is the same thing your wife is complaining about now: thoughtlessness. Don't you think that's significant? If you could raise your level of thoughtfulness and awareness....it could help you get to a completely different place in your life. That kind of spiritual growth is inspiring and contagious. It will also contribute to your individual happiness no matter what your wife decides to do.

Amen...Starfish.

Taking it a step further...

It's that same "thoughlessness" that makes you feel brazenly entitled, even though you are admittedly an unrepentent perpetrator of infidelity, to continue posting here on GQII, with full knowledge of harm and upset cause by doing so, directly in front of hundreds of other victims of infidelity seeking their assistance to continue/repair/rebiuld/recover your adulterous conduct.

I don't know HOW to make an adulterous marriage unadulterous. That's between you and God. Were I in your shoes I'd likely try to find a way to do it without divorceing my spouse too. For you...I sincerely hope that's good enough. But absent leaving her I'd try to do everything I could to make me right with God. Read up about it. Study it. Seek counsel. Find ways to make amends. Seek out alternatives to just compensation. Stop putting my affair smugly in others faces. Understand that others have their religious beliefs which I may find uncomforable and judgmental and realize that that is perhaps ONE of my consequences for MY choices.

It is not my fault you find yourself in this situation.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

you get LH's blessing...that's how!

Zog, maybe you'd be better off getting a new screen name and starting over. There are likely MANY people here on MB who've done exactly that.

Star, those are some good thoughts, but I really wonder if doing the re-contact thing is for everyone. An illustration: I've been divorced from my first wife for almost 34 years. I wasn't the best husband, she surely wasn't the best wife when she cheated on me, but who did what to whom in 1973 is irrelevant now. I’ve served 25 years in the Armed Forces since we divorced. I’ve been places and done things she can’t even comprehend, much less understand how they've made me the man I am today. Also, please understand this. I don’t know her either...not even well enough to have a conversation about the weather, much less emotionally-charged issues that arose when we were both very immature. Frankly, the awkwardness of such a conversation as you envisage and the stirring of long-dead ashes would serve no useful purpose for me, even if she were to come to me with a heartfelt apology. Actually, it would bring back the conflicts, the ugly words, and emotions...and that’s not who I want to be now. Again, what works for one may not be the best for another person.

Also, for what it’s worth, please remember MFZ did apologize to his ex-wife at the time and place that (to me) such a thing was appropriate. Furthermore, he willingly transferred much of his accumulated wealth to her. Since his wife apparently didn’t suffer very long, and moved on with her life almost immediately (requesting MFZ never contact her again), I’m just not sure contacting her and apologizing again would serve any purpose beyond a symbolic gesture. What can you say that is very meaningful after you say you’re sorry? For me (and perhaps for others), respectfully, this is just not beneficial and I’m afraid it has the potential to do a lot of harm.

With respect for your thoughts, as always...

LH

What he did out of guilt or shame does not equate with repentence.

In this very thread he still blamed her and called her "needy and contolling" and tried to use her current adulterous marriage as some sore of justification. But-For his adultery/abuse...who knows what would have happend to her.

Query...Exactly what happens to unrepentent sinners?????

Won't serve any purpose beyond a symbolic gesture...my a$$. It just may step one to saving his eternal soul.

W

Longhorn,


I'm definitely not a "one size fits all" kinda girl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and I realize that the story I recounted was an instance of re-contact, but I also said this:


I hear your comments about this:


And I think that would be the prevailing belief about re-contact. I know about five people altogether who chose this course. All of them felt much like you did....but those fears didn't prove true. Apparently....many of the exes were also longing for closure.

Think about how difficult all R talks are....my H would rather have a root canal. They are certainly uncomfortable....especially when they involve baring our own failure. They are also some of the most productive and life changing. As an example....I had a very hard conversation with my mother before she died. She had failed to protect me from an abusive step-father when I was a teenager. She handled it badly, and in the process....created more pain for me. That conversation did !indeed! dredge up the most horrible memories of my life. But without that conversation....I would never have really healed.


You cannot say anything....and "sorry" doesn't begin to address the harm. It's lip service. You must do something. You must demonstrate change. And the biggest part of contrition is that it changes YOU from the inside out. When you sow destruction....you reap it. When you sow compassion and integrity...you will reap that as well.

Mr. W....I don't know how to make an adulterous marriage UNadulterous either. Ultimately....the final judgement is not mine. But I suspect that it will never be unadulterous unless their is contrition and restitution for the past. *TO ME*.....It's not enough to stop hurting someone. It's not enough to change. Real restitution requires greater spiritual amounts of energy than I expended on being selfish. I would need to expend 10 times the energy making it right....that I did making it wrong. I would certainly have to stop making excuses and explanations about WHY I did the things I did and why it doesn't matter that I repair what I can.

Longhorn....I challenge you to stretch yourself and explore a "larger" response. I'm asking the same of Zog. What can you contribute to the good in your life/world....to compensate for your mistakes? We all face the same dilemma....don't we? I have my own compensation to provide to those I've harmed....and I try to do that. I'm my own "Earl" lOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And I do....respect your thoughts as well.

AP: yes I have considered hiding from these people behind a new name. It is unpleasant to see their bitterness paraded through my thread but I use IGNORE when I have to. If others denied me their advice because of their postings, or if I felt that was happening, I would do as you suggest. They have driven at least one other person away (I hope she is OK without MB help or perhaps she is still around under a new name) so I will resist as long as I have the support of others.
These Jihadists claim to be protecting other vulnerable people who might stumble across my story and be hurt. My story is not an advertisement for the benefits of adultery but that point seems to escape them. It is far from clear whether anyone has actually asked for their protection.

mmmmm...

who is the terrorist here.

Once again...hello, pot.

W

Star, I think you were suggesting that I revisit my previous M in my head to see if there were common problems. I agree I was emotionally immature 30 years ago but I learnt never to inflict such pain again and hoped it would never be inflicted on me. The common factor I see is that I didn't explain my needs when things went wrong. The first time I turned to another woman, the second to my job. I think MB principles can help me this time, if I get the chance to apply them.