HWW,

I think it was appropriate for you to use the addict analogy to explain your W's behavior to your daughter. When your W finally withdraws and starts rebuilding her life again, she will recognize this as well, and be grateful.

I just hope she recognizes it someday... hopefully sooner than later.

I hope things go well for you when she gets home. I bet she's beyond angry. Don't give up... you're doing a really great job.

KM

Katie_Mae,

Hello and thank you. We went to two different kid functions tonight, but passed each other. It's going to be tough this evening, so thank you for the encouragement. The wife scowled at me when she came through the door. It was really something ... crazy! She's fuming, enraged and extremely agitated. I wonder what she's saying to the OM?

My emotional flooding has passed, so I'm able to stay engaged in a heated conversation with her for much much longer without losing it. I think my calm is making her angrier. If she's totally in outer space, then I'll tell her that we should conclude the discussion because she's too angry.

Check in again. Things are moving fast.

HWW

What a night! Wow! If it wasn't for this board, SAA and HNHN, I would not have been able to do it! Thank You!

The wife is so angry she shakes. She just couldn't stop telling me how she is done and the marriage is over. That may be, but I continued to apply MB principals to her.

This morning she told me something I didn't know; something new. Something is happening to the OM in two weeks, but I don't know. She wouldn't tell me because 'it's none of my business'. I have to find out.

The Wife's OM comment came up when I was requesting her to have no more contact with the OM. I was able to calmly talk to her about a lot of things, including the OM. It's amazing how revisionist history occurs. Even history that's just a few weeks old. I've been keeping a log / diary, so it's going to get hard for my wife to revise too much during the period after D-Day.

The kids were very distressed before the wife returned home late last night. My son and oldest daughter were extremely distraught. We had a huge melt down, but I grabbed three big plastic water glasses and we went outside and threw water on each other. It worked and I was able to get the kids through it.

The wife was so distraught. She talked and talked and talked and accused me of not talking to her. When I tried, she talked over me and continued to talk. I was able to get her to consider and agree to some rules on talking to each other. I'm going to boil down MB principals on talking and email them to her. Any thoughts? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The other breakthrough I was able to accomplish is to get my wife to talk to my psychiatrist. She really needs to spend some time with someone and I was able to get her to at least begin a discussion.

Anyway, rules for talking to each other based on MB principals. SAA has some rules, but I'm going to try to work in some love buster principals too.

HWW

My wife and I had such a difficult time talking the other night because of my wife's anger, that I had to talk to her about how we would talk to each other. I thought about the "Good Conversatoin Enemies and Friends" in HNHN, but I decided to use the Policy of Joint Agreement Guidelines found in SAA instead. It seemed to fit our problems better. This is what I emailed my wife yesterday:

Guideline 1. Set ground rules to make conversation and negotiations pleasant and safe.

[*]i. be pleasant and cheerful throughout you discussion on an issue.

• a. avoid being disrespectful, angry outbursts, selfish demands
  
• b. conversation time should be 50/50
  
• c. take a break if needed

[*] ii. put safety first - do not threaten to cause pain or suffering when you discuss or negotiate; even if negotiations fail.
[*] iii. if you reach an impass, stop for a while and come back to the issue later.

Guideline 2. Identify the problem / topic / issue from the perspective of both you and your spouse.

Guideline 3. Brainstorm solutions with abandon.

Guideline 4. Choose a solution that is appealing to both of you. You must both enthusiastically agree to a solution, otherwise go back to guideline 3.

I still feel like my situation is very, very bad. My wife is starting to have a really tough time with the divorce process and more is coming at her pretty fast the next few days.

Last night my wife seemed to crash a bit. She changed beds and was in our bed for the first time in a couple of months. I said, "I see we are going to sleep together tonight". She didn't respond and prepared for the worst.

Later I came to bed and she didn't fight; however, sometime a little later, my oldest D came in to the bedroom, looked at both of us in the same bed and asked, "what is going on". I simply said, 'we are trying to sleep dear'. My daughter left, and my wife rolled over on her back. I didn't look at her, I just prepared myself for an outburst. It never came and we slept together last night.

IMO now is not the time to be "educating" your WW like that. She's likely going to rebel and cause even more LB'ing. And IMO POJA can only work if you both agree to recover the M.

I suggest instead approaching this from a "personal boundaries" point of view.

Why do you think she changed beds suddenly last night? I can think of two opposite reasons why this might have been, but I'm curious about your thoughts.

I don't know what you mean by "personal boundaries" can you expand that for me?

The purpose of the note was to help us talk. When she was going off on me, she constantly talked over me. I suggested that we set up some ground rules for talking. She agreed. Dr. Harley uses the techniques I gave her as a way to begin marital recovery. Boy, I thought it was a good opportunity to plug some "love bank holes".



Thanks.

While it is good to set up rules for communicating with each other, I doubt your WW is interested in marital recovery right now, and any attempts to teach her marriage saving techniques will probably be met with much resistance.

Personal boundaries refers to things like, I will not tolerate you talking to OM in the house, I will not be kicked out of my own house, bed, etc., because of your affair.

Personally, I think she did it to challenge me. I think she wanted a fight, but I think at the end of the day. She was too emotionally exhausted to take me on. I expected her to tell me, 'sleep in the attic', in an attempt to humilate me.

I was certainly ready for her to take me on. My plan was to carefully say 'no', but remind her of our agreement to talk (see above). I thought we could end up at an agreement that allowed me to sleep either there or somewhere else, but in a way that didn't allow her to humiliate me. But, the fight didn't happen.

When my 15 year came in and asked, 'what's going on' referring to us both sleeping in the same bed, it seemed like my wife started to fume after that, but she didn't pick a fight and just went back to sleep.

There is some evidence that my wife is crashing a bit. I'm looking for evidence that the affair is ending. It's under a lot of pressure. When I asked my wife to not see or contact the OM the other night, she said, 'in 14 days it won't matter'. I asked what that meant but refused to tell me saying it wasn't any of my business.

I'll find out Friday night or this weekend. I'll have to get ready again.

What were your two opposite reasons, Owl?

Does anyone think this might be a good time to write her an email note telling her I want to meet her emotional needs, etc.?

We've had a brutal few days.

Hey Mr.W,

Just wanted to let you know I used your advice above when my wife went nuts. I told her I just laid out the facts to my attorney.

Wife is going to get hit with more from my attorney today and tomorrow.

HWW

Jmwc95, yep I see. I am most definitely and carefully (w/o love busters) setting boundaries. The bed is a definite boundary. I haven't conquered the taking the clothes up to the attic yet. I'm tired of organizing and folding clothes.

HWW,

I would not write her an email about meeting needs... that's quite a ways away. That's part of marital recovery, and in her mind, she is still getting a divorce. Just keep living your life, taking care of your kids and keeping boundaries in place.

I think sleeping in bed with you could mean one of two things: the reason you suspect or because underneith her insane, alien exterior she respects you taking charge. She sees you're not fooling, and taking care of yourself and your kids. It's bursting her fantasy bubble.

What's going on with the attorney tomorrow?

KM

also...

do you think your W will try and sleep in the same bed with you tonite? If she tries again, maybe you need to think about setting a boundary. "I really miss sleeping in the same bed as you, and I enjoyed last night. However, maybe it's confusing for the kids and we don't want to make this more painful than it already is." Just a thought.

KatieMae, How are you doing? Thanks for the post.

As for the note, ok. I'm going to hold off on the note. I did call her tonight and make small talk a bit.

As for the sleeping together. Your comment is interesting about respecting me. I didn't think about that. Probably, respecting me IS what prevented her from taking me on. The night before she took me on and I kept coming back for more and more without love busters. I just talked (when she gave me the chance), otherwise she just ranted and raved. At the end of that, she was exhausted emotionally and I was still wanting to talk more, setting boundaries, and not letting her run over me. Hmmmm.

As for the attorney, the wife will get my Answer to the complaint, which will really throw her because it comes at her hard.

Then we are asking for an interrogatory (under oath), to get at all the financial issues. And, we're asking for mediation at which she will be asked to move out; Plan B.

I moved my clothes down from the attic. I think next time, I'm going to take some of her clothes up there and tell her I'm looking forward to US moving up to the attic together.

I did tell her the other night, that I still want to work on our marriage, but there should be no further contact or communication with the OM. I really don't know what happens in 14 days. I asked my attoney if she knew what that might mean. I asked because the firm represents the OMW! My attorney didn't know.

Best regards, and thanks.

HWW

Not tonight. She's out of town. She'll be back tomorrow. We'll see.

What are you thinking in terms of the boundary? What am I accomplishing with this boundary?

Quote: What are you thinking in terms of the boundary? What am I accomplishing with this boundary?

I'm thinking, if she wants to sleep in the bed with you, you need to have a commitment from her that she is working on the M and will no longer have contact with OM. If she can't do that, she sleeps elsewhere. Otherwise, it's too confusing for the kids, and you both need to think about their mental and emotional well-being.

Only inform her of this boundary if she tries sleeping with you again. Let her know it's out of love for the kids, and respect to the M, which you most definitely want to work on.

I have no idea what the 14 days could be... I wonder if she and the OM have plans. It's a little scary to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


KM

14 days put you right up against the end of the Month of June.

It COULD mean:

She's moving out all on her own (without you forcing her).

Maybe into some place OM and her are going to share.

Could be what some of that recent money movement was allocated for.

IF she goes...try not to enable her by allowing her to take anything but her clothes and very personal items.

You've got the restraing order and the court will decide how to divide up the rest.

Remember...don't JUST rely on a restraining order. MANY spouses upon moving out do it on the sly and take as much as they can fit on the truck. They do it secretly when they know you will be out of the house. Possession is still 9/10's of the law. Sure it's a violation of the restraining order but once it's gone...it ain't coming back.

Your snooping should be in high gear.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Good decision to back off on the educating of the wayward spouse. She's an addict...until the affair is OVER she'll only listen for as long as it serves her addiction. Her recent attention and giving you an audience is likely just a delay, deny and appeasement tactic. Snoop to discover the real game behind the scenes. There's always a scheme.

Hmmmmm. I really don't think she's moving out. I really don't. If she did move out, then she knows she will not get primary custody of the kids. She never moved any money out of our joint accounts. She moved money to cover the check she wrote to her attorney.

The recent restraining order really shocked her. She was pretty shaken. I think it had good unintended consequences. She knows now that the divorce process is not going to go her way. She doesn't have the control she thought she had and her fantasy is crumbling.

I really think it's the OM who is moving; hopefully out of town and far away.