I've read so much on this web site. I've read and re-read "His Needs Her Needs". I'm in week nine. I'm working Plan A really, really hard, but I feel like my situation is very very bad.

My wife of 20 years wants to leave me. She told me of her EA 3/25/07 and after that she told me that she made it physical. God that hurt. She tells me the other man knows her so well. Like no one else.

The OM is her former boss and she's known him for 14 years. He's leaving the company, one of these days, she says. He's being pushed out and given a severance, so that's good, I think. The guy is married (2nd time). His wife just got over cancer and he has a 10 year old. His first marriage he left 3 children.

So, here I am week nine. I work part-time out of the house and make a good living. I have the flexibility to take care of the kids. I've taken over almost all the household responsibilities and I've lost 30 pounds. Still no progress. She's interviewing attorneys.

My wife constantly complains about money. She has so much envy. "His Needs Her Needs" says the man should be the primary bread winner, so I'm looking for a job. However, I will need to move. I can't find anything worth while in Michigan. Michigan is an economic disaster.

My oldest daughter waffles taking sides, because my wife talks to her too much. I've asked her to stop several times.

Of my 3 kids, two are seeing psychs and so am I. My wife won't see one, because she says she's fine.

Everyone knows now. Family, friends, OM's wife, pastor, pretty much everyone.

It just seems like I'm much worse off than the other postings I've seen on Marriage Builder's. I could use some encouragement.

I posted on "Just Found Out" another thread, see here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3246551

But, I want to move over here now, because the depth of discussion is much better on this thread.

help, are you in Plan A? Do you have Surviving an Affair? Have you exposed the affair? What have you done to bust it up?

I'm just gonna approach this from the attorney angle first. You are doing the plans and others can advise you. I also happen to live in Michigan and am familiar with the economic outlook here (which is why I encourage folks across the country to buy American cars...it may not have effected your state, city or town like Detroit...but it will trickle down eventually...OUR middle class need JOBS).

Anyway, with you being home now and the primary caregiver you are actually in a decent position to win primary custody of the kids. In the longrun, you may or may not want that but regardless...winning it helps shed reality on the fantasy affair your wife is having and helps bust it up. You can't leave the state of michigan anyway. IF you end up divorced I presume WW will want to stay here with the boss. Before you can leave the state with the kids SHE would have to consent (unless she completely abandons them). On the good side, this DOES work both ways. OM, supposedely (you really can't believe everything they say so who knows)...is losing his job here in Michigan. Where is he gonna get a new job???? Out of state??? Then your WW can't go AND take the kids herself.

Anyway...don't make rash decisions. Maintain your part-time job and parent the heck out of those kids. Keep two handwriting dated journals (more reliable), one documents EVERYTHING involving the children and the other is for you, your feelings, your planning and your fight for your marriage.

No fighting with WW at all...let alone in front of the children. While you fight for your marriage be aware to ALWAYS keep the children on the front of your mind. They NEED a stable parent right now and you just got elected the only one around. Wayward Spouses are completely kookoo.

Use only MB exposure techniques being careful not to be seemingly vindictive.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

hww,

I'm trying to remember where HNHN requires the man to be the major breadwinner....hmmm....don't remember reading that. That may still be more prevalent, but society is changing fast with so many women in the work force. In any case, it sounds like your wife isn't just attracted to her boss because of looks....but maybe also because of his position (because he's sure no PRINCE! yikes!)

So how did everyone find out?

HWW,

How many times did she gripe, complain, communicate that having you home and working and being the domestic support for her and the children BEFORE she had the affair? I am guessing she was fine to a point in you taking care of the household and the majority of the care of the children and earning a part time income.

You will note that many BS's are floored by the WS's sudden willingness to communicate things they didn't like and reasons you are responsible for her bad decisions and immorality. See, when one begins an affair and betrays the one they said they loved for another they have to find something or someone to blame for their shortcomings as a human being who would do such a thing. Unfortunately for the BS you are the closest thing for them to blame so you get it full bore. These excuses are nothing but that, a way to justify her behavior.

I would listen to the advice you are getting here and privately (no threats, or hinting at) schedule me a meeting with an attorney to discuss the worst case scenario. You should be prepared to ask for full custody of the children, spousal maintenance and child support in addition to keeping the family home for the children's continuity. Keep plan A'ing but read about the carrott and the stick part of plan A. It is not about being a doormat for an adulterous wayward wife.

OK...caught up on your JFO thread for more info.

Kids are a bit older 15,12 & 12 (twins). So custody will more than likely be their call by the time any divorce is final. It is important to put them on the front burner because this hurts them too, they need you AND, I presume, you really want and need them to CHOOSE you. IMO (in my opinion) Wayward spouses...no matter how good they were BEFORE are NO LONGER fit parents.

IF your wife carries through with this (which is a big IF, I'll get to in a moment)...then she is going to TRY to presuade your kids to choose her. In fact, waywards act really counter to any case they may have UNTIL they lawyer up. She could be changing her behaviors soon to win them over. Of course, she will do so by acting like their teenage best friend instead of a parent but to a confused adolescent that's enticing.

Also...as soon as she meets an attorney...EXPECT a financial fallout. He/she will advise her to clean out the bank accounts and put all the money in her name. Of course, he/she will presume that by doing this WW will maintain fairness. He/she will advise this to make sure his client doesn't get screwed NOR RUN OUT OF MONEY TO PAY HIM. I'm not your attorney...so I can tell you to do it first and get yourself some cash while you are at it. The general rule of thumb is to divide any joint accounts up in equal shares for each member of you family. So you take 4/5ths and put it in an account in your own name.

NOW onto Marital reconciliation. You indicated that OM is supposedly going back with his wife. If I were you, I'd speak to OMW to confirm this. If that is true...your wife, like my wife did, may threaten to divorce you (or she may actually file) in a desparate attempt to regain her afffair. It's a last desparate plea for OM to come back to her. If he doesn't ...which I hope he doesn't...then she should come around in a short bit when that strategy fails to reignite the affair. When I say "come around" I don't mean she's going to jump back into your marriage. That takes time. First she'll come back because she's got no where to go. Then withdrawal kicks in a she'll be depressed and resolute that her feelings for you just aren't there. You just keep on Plan A'ing and hope for the best while the entire time preparing and positioning yourself on the backside for a contentious divorce and you winning custody of the kids. Don't talk divorce. Don't negotiate separation. Don't move out. IF she chooses any of the above...that is her choice. Don't HELP her and make it easy to just walk away from you and the kids. Poor choice have dire consequences. If you care...allow her to fully feel those consequences. She should then come around...they USUALLY do. Regardless...you will make it.

I saved my marraige utilizing MB principles. You can too.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Please email me at my address below. I've got some stuff to share with you **************edit**********

I did want to add.

IF you do speak with OM's betrayed wife. Be very wary of her too. She's his adulterous wife from his first marriage and likely VERY FOGGY herself. Often we see the BS's team up to battle to the affair. She likely won't be much help as she's a quite foggy one herself. Keep your distance.

Mr. Wondering

hww,

************edit************ The above advice (excluding the PS) from Mr. W is fantastic.....his legal background is invaluable. You're very lucky to have his good counsel. However, please decide for yourself what posters and advice you consider valuable ***EDIT********* As you can tell from affairs....privacy and secrecy are different. You strike me as someone who has the intelligence to make your own choices about the people *****edit*********.

I am in Plan A. I have not yet bought Surving an Affair. I do have His Needs Her Needs. I have exposed the affair to everyone I can, but my wife continues to tell me we are going to get divorced.

This morning she transfered a large amount of cash into checking; much more than usual. When I asked her about it, she became very angry. She accused me of never having any interest in our home finances before. I told her that was untrue, but for the future it should not matter. She told me that over the next few months, we would begin separating our finances.

It is the 5th major need for women (Chapter 9) in "His Needs Her Needs". I'll quote the book for you, "Humorous anecdotes abound on women who marry men for their money, but my counseling experience has taught me not to treat this tendency as a joke. In truth a woman does marry a man for his money-".

Money is my wife's biggest resentment toward me right now. Her second biggest resentment is that I abandoned her for the last 10 years.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm trying to do just that, but she does know I have spoken to an attorney. However, I really work hard at not having love busters. When I sense the conversation with my wife is nothing but anger on her part, I try not to let it go on to long, but end it gracefully.

So she only transferred it from joint savings to joint checking??? I'd get there before the check to her attorney is cashed and remove 4/5ths of checking and savings into your own account...today.

Then...when she invariably gets upset...just point to the conversation this morning and say "but didn't you just say this morning you wanted to separate our finances???? You're so busy and all, I just thought I'd get a jump start on it".

Take my word...you are going to get screwed if you don't act. YOU CAN'T TRUST a Wayward Spouse. IF (a big IF) you do get divorce papers this week or next...you can't do a thing to the finances thereafter. A part of the petition will ORDER you not to make any moves, abscond or dissapate marital assets. However, SHE will be free to set up her own bank account and direct deposit her FUTURE checks there. You'll end up having to live, support kids and fight a divorce merely on your part-time money. Sure you may get temporary support but when and how much. If you can't pay an attorney (or a good one) how do you fight for such. Don't be played the fool. ACT...to protect you and your kids from an emotionally abusive spouse. You can save your marriage later. Her ANGER can be resolved later. You can settle up later...but TODAY, protect you and those kids.

Warning...I am not a divorce attorney. If you had one, I'd certainly want you to ask him/her before acting. This is just advice and I accept no responsibility if it backfires on you. You certainly have to decide YOURSELF what to do and act accordingly. Her lawyers will try to paint this move as vindictive; but that will be months down the road and you can always give it back (or a portion thereof) someday. Don't SPEND it (though I have seen some pay off credit cards or their car/truck...to alleviate money concerns for them down the road...you get to keep your car/truck and it often is a JOINT debt).

Think hard on this. I know it's instictual to trust your spouse. Don't.

Mr. Wondering

Mr.W. Thank you very much. I am very worried that my wife's attorney will come at me full bore. I'm not looking forward to that at all. I think I have a very very good attorney, and (unlike my wife) I have an extended family around supporting me.

My wife's mother rebuked her. I haven't been talking to her too much recently, but I've Plan A'd my wife's mother also. My wife is an only child who's biological father abandoned her when she was very young. My wife never was close to her step father either.

When I spoke to my wife about why she could talk to the OM and not me, my wife talks about the accumulation of resentments toward me. I ask her who else she feels this way, and she says her mother.

My wife and her mother have been very close and have (until recently) always been able to carry on long conversations.

My wife really needs to see a psych, but she absolutely refuses.

Your attorney works for you. He advises you and you make the decisions. He/she MAY very likely tell you NOT to do the above. Ask questions. SOMETIMES they can be so accustomed to the "usual cases"...they sometimes miss the boat. You could end up in a very tight financial bind if your attorney advises otherwise.

But, in the end, it's better to listen to your attorney than some, non-divorce lawyer, on the internet.

Mr. Wondering

hww,


Dr. Harley talks about the prevalence of the male need for "Attractive Spouse" in the same language, because people have a tendency to consider FS and AS as shallow and bogus "needs" when they aren't. But he also explains early on that while he's divided these chapters into his and her....that they aren't "exclusively" male and female. For instance, apparently, your wife has a need for domestic support (because she's the major breadwinner I suppose). That's usually in the male column, but not exclusively so.

If money is a big issue with your wife, and obviously it's one of the things I think has attracted her to her boss....then demonstrating your willingness to step up your game in that area is a productive way to fill that need. But Dr. Harley....doesn't say anywhere that men "should" adhere to a certain role....we have a several Mr. Mom style marriages that are successful here.....but one like yours where the WS is attracted to her "boss" is not one them.

Still, you have the uneviable position of providing both domestic support and financial security simultaneously. It's a tall order....but I think if you can find a reasonable balance for your energy.....she will notice.

Good luck.....sending blessings and MB hugs your way.

I am wondering about the length of time my wife has know the OM. He hired my wife. He's known my wife for 14 years. I've not seen anyone else with a similar relationship. I worry that the length of time they've known each other is a big negative against saving the marriage.

P.s. I told my psych what my wife had been telling me: "I never loved you; I started looking around in 1990", and my psych asked me if I had any reason to believe my twins were not my children.

I had never ever even remotely contemplated this question. When I was asked to think about it, I can't begin to tell you the pain it caused me. Pain layered on top of my wife's adultery. Wow.

Everyone asks me if I'm holding on too tight. All I say is "I can't turn my love off like a switch. I don't know if I will ever stop loving my wife." But man, I feel abused.

Star*fish, the OM is losing his job. I'm interviewing, but because Michigan has such a lousy economy, I have to go out of state. I don't think the OM will make more money than me. Frankly, I think I can make more money (full-time) then either of them.

The fog (I hope) prevents my wife from seeing that someone needs to be concerned about the kids. I thought my wife and I were comfortable with our arrangement. My consulting company, out of my house, is making reasonable income. Especially given the flexibility it has offered me with caring for the kids. If I get a good job offer, I'll have a difficult decision to make. I've already asked my wife to move with me and she's said 'no'.

Sometimes I think my wife thought I would move out the 1st week and the OM would move right in and replace me as a stay at home dad. I've never been able to get my wife to explain to me how this was going to work. She says to me, "I have no plans. I want to work ending our marriage out with you." That came from the wife who can not talk to me. I'm actually praying that her attorney will explain reality to her. I know my attorney is ready to explain things.

hww,

"I have no plans" is a lovely foggy statement if I ever heard one. It's the hallmark of someone who is out of touch with reality and thinks that God finds a way to unite "soulmates" against all odds. Obviously, that's all a bunch of alien wishful thinking.

Her attorney may not be able to explain reality to her....but reality will slap her in the face at some point.....and while you won't be able to lovebust with the "I told you so's"....I hope this forum can give you some peace of mind in that regard.

Don't lose hope yet my friend.....I have a feeling the reality bubble will burst when the boss alien loses his job and she can see him for the loser he really is.

Hang tight.

R U going to the bank???

Can you snoop her check registry??

She may have already written the check???

Time is of the essence.

Mr. W

I can watch our checking and savings on-line. I look at it regularly. I looked at our checking account. I didn't see any checks missing or written. I just got wire instructions from my attorney. I can wire my attorney funds from another account tomorrow. It's pretty easy and cannot be interrupted like a check. I'm thinking about moving some money into trust with my attorney. That will make her happy. More love busters.

Yes...she will be upset.

But a marriage can survive UPSET. What it can't survive is an ongoing extamarital affair.

She will jump and scream that "THIS" was the final straw. Been there, done that. It's not. Just be calm and lovingly detached. Question her, nicely, why she's REALLY moved around money. Indicate you would never think of doing this before but SHE's been threatening divorce and given you every indication she's about to file and/or move out. You HAD to protect the FAMILY (Don't say YOU...because in essence you are protecting her as well. If and when she comes to her senses and out of the fog...she will understand, if she never does, no skin off your back...you protected yourself.

Mr. Wondering

star*fish,
I really appreciate the words of encouragement. I'm beginning month three of this nightmare. My family likes to keep telling me that she may never come back. I keep telling them that I know that, but I love my wife and my kids will be hurt by divorce. Imagine the lesson my kids will learn if I actually do save my marriage. That alone gives me strength.

HWW:

Your WW knew this guy for 14 years.

To you, your situation is the worst around here. But there are others that are worse, and many that survived.

That doesn't help with the pain, I know.

But the longer you hang around, the more you will realize that WW is typical in many ways, and unique in others.

Your W admitted the EA in March, with PA following. So even though she has known him, and the start of her EA with him may have been a while ago, she has not been to far gone with this.

You have all the right things to make this thing turn around.

1.
I Read on your first thread that the OM had been fired and was negotiating severance. I think his employer would negotiate a slightly smaller package for OM if he KNEW that he had exposed the company to a sexual harrassment lawsuit by persuing your W.

Think about THAT for a minute.

2.
Long conversations with her. Not about emotions, but about the kids, dog, weather, the garden, the neighobrs garden, her new dress, the way the local baseball team is playing, whatever gets her to talk.

3.
Your daughters are responding to YOU. That can be crushing to a mother. Never ask your children to choose sides, just tell them what you are trying to do and why, and yes, when you succeed, it will be a valuable lesson for them.

4.
She's interviewing attorneys? Why, for a date? Cool. Let her. Remember, OM is being terminated! He is going to look real peachy soon.
And let her do the D work. Her threats mean nothing. Only her actions. When you get served, you get served. And you can be surprised by this!
Get your own ducks in order, which you appear to be doing. I find around here that most BS get the attorney action issue and the WS? it's to much work... And D can take a long time...Your advantage.

Those are only four reason why you are in good shape.

There are more, but that's for later, or you will discover them yourself.

LG

Mr. W, Thank you. Good response.

lousygolfer, thanks. I'm not the kind of guy who cries much, but your post got me choked up. I really appreciate it.

Wife told me that the OM is unhappy with the severance. It's too small, she says.

My wife is working my 15 year old daughter. My daughter tried to tell me she saw mom's point of view the other day. The next day she was mad at me and said, "I hope mom divorces you!" She was trying to get me to call in a bogus excuse to school so she could go to the pool. I said 'no'. Your grades are horrible as it is, and you need to preserve good grades where ever you can.

My sisters tell me that I'm the only adult in the house. It's very grueling.

HWW:

No party with the severance money, huh?

To BAD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Still a nice conversation with his supervisor could create tremendous turmoil in thier little A world.

One thing about your 15 YO.

Next time?

Stop.

Put whatever is in your hands down, stare her in her eye, and state simply, "No, you don't. Because everything you have now, WILL be GONE." "This house, your school, your friends." "Thats how important this IS."

Establish a FIRM boundary with you daughter that D will not be played with.

Now,

What have you done for plan A today?

I want a report tommorrow!

LG>>> Who left MI 25 years ago. And MOM Still wonders when I'm coming HOME...

Lousygolfer, here is my Plan A report. I made her one of her favorite dishes for her return from an overnight business trip: ceviche. It was waiting for her in the fridge. When I talked to her on the phone earlier, to ask about the money transfer, she was very angry. I didn't lose my cool and ended the phone call because it served no good purpose for me.

When she was home, I made pleasant conversation and asked her to go for a walk with me. She declined. The kids were in good spirits, and I left her alone most of the time. I first took a walk, then I went out and had a drink with a buddy. She's in bed now.

So this is a legacy affair.

I have a psychiatrist friend who knows my wife well and she was telling me how my wife's childhood almost always leads to these situations. So if that's what you mean by legacy affair, then 'yes'; I guess so.

HWW - just want to add that your situation is not worse than anyone else's. Everything follows the script.

I didn't believe it myself when I came here back in November 2006, but I can say now it is true.

Give this all you have so you have no regrets.

HWW, I would focus on Plan A, and most especially exposing the affair. Have you told anyone about it yet? Exposure is one of your most powerful weapons against the affair.

Here is an excellent outline of Plan A by Pepperband:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

lousygolfer: one of my wife's biggest complaints before all this blew up was laundry. Well, just started the laundry. I've been doing the laundry for weeks now. It makes her angry; especially when I do her laundry. She's asked and I've stopped doing her laundry, but I'm doing everyone else's. It definitely frees up her weekend to spend with the kids.

I wish I could gauge or determine where we are in this process. My wife is definitely moving forward and not giving me any indication of improvement, but she doesn't seem to be seeing the other man much. Nor do I see her talking to him nearly as much.

Mr W. above talked about how his wife filed divorce in desperation to get the OM back. I thought that was interesting.

HWW, also, have your children been told the truth about what is happening? Do they know about the affair? Or has she been lying to them?

I'm definitely working on Plan A and I've seen this list many times before. Eveyday I'm working the carrot. As for the stick, I've worked the stick, set boundaries and the affair is exposed (my wife's mother even rebuked her), but my wife is trying to manipulate the situation. She's trying to place blame on me. Her favorite accusations are I could never talk to you, you abandoned me for ten years, and you never loved me because you never showed it.

I try to pick the sticks and set boundaries carefully because they invariably become major love busters to her. But, when she's inappropriate especially with kids, I calmly talk to her. When she was moving money around yesterday, I calmly talked to her about it.

HWW, you do understand that a lovebuster consists of a specific list of behaviors, right? It does not neccessarily mean anything the wayward does not like. For example, she will NOT LIKE it when you protect your money, expose her affair, etc, but those are all marriage saving tactics that you can't forgo just because she doesn't like it. Your goal here is to save your marriage, not appease her at all costs. See what I mean?

In fact, if she is too content, it probably means you are enabling her. And that is the worst thing you can do.

So that means you take steps to move your money and thusly, protect it from her plunder. That means you tell your DD's the TRUTH about her affair, etc.

To whom has the affair been exposed? Have your DD's been told the truth? Did you move your money so she cannot plunder it?

Lovebusters:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

Melody, the kids know. My oldest daughter knows a lot more than my 12 year olds, but they all know mom had an affair and is leaving dad. They know who the OM is and my oldest daughter has been told all kids of stuff; like how my wife and the OM are going to go to Vegas to get married because mommy doesn't have any more friends here.

My wife's fog is incredibly dense.

Recently, I think because her position is so indefensible, my wife is telling everyone that the other man is going back to his wife. While I've noticed a reduction in activity between my wife and the OM for the last couple of weeks, I'm not ready to believe what she's telling everyone. I'm really thinking hard about calling the OM's wife.

HWW, you said:


Did you personally tell the OM's W? How do you know that she knows and what does she know? Are you in contact with her yourself to compare notes? Will she come here?

Yea, but from my wife's perspective; what constitutes selfish demands and disrespectful judgments? I think almost anything I say qualifies at this point.

She could be your greatest ally against this affair. I would do that today. I have a suspicion that the affair is still on and your W is only saying this stuff to camoflage the affair.

A lovebuster has a specific meaning and is not contingent upon someone's "perspective." Her perspective will be that of a falling down drunk who views any move against her affair as irritating. Almost anything that does not ENABLE her affair will irritate her, but that does not mean it is a "lovebuster." Just keep that in mind.

Again, your goal is to save your marriage, not appease a fogged out wayward at all costs. If you are appeasing someone whose goal is the destruction of your marriage and family, then you are contributing to your own demise.

HWW:

About your Plan A efforts last night:

The meal was good. Asking about the money was bad. Do what you have to do to protect yourself. Move everything else to a safe place. You do not have to discuss it with her. She brings it up, you talk, be factual. State simply that people in affairs spend family money and just not thier own. She can have her own accounts.

Doing the laundry? Do hers too. Makes her angry? So what. It puts her in the position of being angry at you for being good to her. Unsupportable over time, and she will respect that, later.

Call the OMW. Today would be good. Really ruins the weekend for the OM. So that's good. And WW? Angry. Notice the pattern in WW? Anger.

Because you are interfering in paradise. Don't worry about it.

Give her more opportunity to talk. Helps to dissipate the anger. Keep it light. Talk about other things beside the M, R, and OM. She will want to, just change the subject.

OK?

LG

Melody, I just ran out to use a pay phone and try to call the OM's wife. She wasn't home, but I'll talk to her and let you know.

LG, Ok, thanks.

Pace yourself

No ONE thing you do in Plan A will make any difference to a WW.

EVERYTHING you do (cumulative effect) in Plan A will make a world of difference.

Don't hang on her every word or actions. She's so messed up nothing she does will make sense, and trying to understand those things will keep you whirling around in confusion.

Plan A with a vengence. Use her anger towards you to temporarily "detach from her in an emotional sense", so that her crazy moods don't interefere with your PLAN A.

Nothing you say to her will impact her at all. In her current state of ultimate entitlement, all she can think to do is defend her actions, at nearly any cost. Husband and children are simply an obstacle to her "having her way" completely.

This will not be fixed in a few days or weeks. This will be a two year long, or longer, endeavor. Looking for immediate results will drive you crazy. Give all, expect nothing, and don't be frozen by fear of what she may do or say. Follow the MB plan and you will prevail.

Best wishes,
SD

Mr W. above talked about how his wife filed divorce in desperation to get the OM back. I thought that was interesting.

Just to set the record straight, my wife discussed leaving me and my daughter in Michigan, separating and going to Atlanta to be with OM (and try to get him back because he ended the affair).

It was a brief discussion. I basically said "NO". Which kind of shocked her. You see...OM had dumped her and was pretty much broke. She NEEDED our money to go to Atlanta and separate. I wasn't going to give it to her. I knew I could cancel credit cards (had the list ready to go) and there wasn't much cash around for her to do so. Me saying "NO" made that option to go to Atlanta and try to win back OM unplausible.

Your situation. OM's got a little more money. Even though he's unhappy with his severence he's still got cash or soon to have cash to burn. If he's an idiot (likely) he WILL burn it on his addiction although his BW might have a clue and protect her family...could be something to mention to her (just thought of this...if the company has a 401k plan they will HAVE to get OM's wife signuture before they cut OM a check...she needs to be very carefull OM doesn't pocket THEIR retirement savings.)

Jobless...OM may move...you can only hope.

Back to my point. IF OM dumped her...she may push for divorce and file so she can play damsel and star-struck lover to OM and hope to attract him back. She'll play on his guilt and to do so she MAY have to actually file. Best you can do is keep pressure up on OM with exposure, battle planning with his wife (keeping your distance as she was his mistress before she married him), MAYBE calling his first wife and mother of his children...whatever you can do to KEEP OM from changing his mind. Your wife MUST appear more trouble than she's worth. What's great about that is the more OM hems and haws...the more CRAZY your wife's behavior will become. She'll lovebust like crazy to get him back and he'll then be less likely to follow through.

As far as YOU. Don't sweat HOW and affair ends, only THAT it ends. Hopefully, fairly soon you'll end up at No Contact one way or another. After withdrawal, I'm betting your wife may even be inclined to move away to a better job market. She's burned many a bridge here in Michigan and your marriage could use a fresh start, at that point, far from Michigan.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

p.s. - still waiting for that email from you

p.p.p. - Did you transfer that money to your attorney's retainer account yet???

Let me ask you this,

Why would taking your and your children's share of the money out of the joint account, and placing it into a separate account, be detrimental to your WW? You are merely protecting your and your children's share of the marital assets. If she goes through with D, she will be entitled to her share, no more. You fear her anger, but where is that anger coming from? What insecurity could possibly be fueling her feelings of entitlement to your marital assets?

I suggest she is cake eating, foggy, alien. You are proposing taking away her options, and she isn't agreeing. I can't believe, in a rational mindset, that she would disapprove. She sure will be getting counselled to do the same by her attorney, and whom do you trust protecting the marital assets, you, or your WW?

I think you've received good advice from people who have BTDT, for your sake, I hope you take full advantage of their experience.

Shattered, wow. I'm looking at your signature. You were at it for a long time, weren't you? Wow. What strength you must have!

Mr. W., sent you an email.

Tried to call the OM's wife three times. Not home.

I haven't transfered any money. Wife's bonus hit the joint account today, so she didn't divert that check. And it was a pretty good sized check.

I'd suppose she MIGHT be anticipating THAT check and together with the money she trasferred Wednesday...ALL that is going to her attorney potentially RIGHT NOW.

I would hate for you to wait to SEE what happens and then report back to us...you were right, the money is gone.

Her hostility to the question about the money yesterday was manipulation. She'll be prepared to answer you amicably ONCE the money is gone..I'm certain.

Mr. Wondering

Did want to ask...was the bonus check deposited in Savings or Checking???

Really doesn't matter...she may be on her way to the attorney this afternoon to write out the check, then go to the bank to transfer the bonus check to checking AND/OR withdraw it to cash. Her attorney will likely deposit the same immediately.

We have seen this MANY times before. Be the one guy that PREEMPTED such situation.

I know this FEELS harsh and you hate the idea of having to explain yourself whilst at the same time trying to Plan A her and save your marriage...but you've got your family to think about.

She may even be writing a check on an apartment to rent, 1st month, last month, Security Deposit. If the funds aren't there SHE can't move out and YOU can still Plan A her no matter how UPSET she gets.

Mr. Wondering

Hi everyone. I've been picking up kids, putting laundry in the washer, and earning some money. But, I've also been talking to my attorney.

My wife filed on me yesterday. I transfered money. So, I've been busy today. It still hurts even though I've been ready for this for awhile.

So, now the fun and games begin. My wife's attorney talked to my attorney earlier today. The two law firms know each other well, so I don't expect any surprises.

My wife was unequivacable with her attorney, 'no reconciliation!'

Mr. W, the wife wrote a check. It was above board. She had her bonus deposited into savings, not checking. I'm not worried about her doing anything radical now. I need to do some regrouping and thinking. I also need to read the complaint.

Wow, wow. Here I am in week nine. For me d-day was 3/25/07. On 3/24/07, my wife and I went to some friends house for a small party. We had a great time. I thought we were more in love than ever before. We went home that night and my wife initiated great sex with me. It was wonderful. I cherished her.

3/25/07 my world changed and here I am nine weeks later. Unbelievable. Wife can't talk to me without going into a rage and she's filed for divorce. Wow.

My H and I were married 14 years when he began his A with the wife of his life-long friend ... H knew OW for more than 5 years before he'd met me .... we're FINE now.

Length of time OM knows your WW is not the issue .... resume regular MB programing

I know all seems lost right now.

Keep you chin up.

I just went to the MB weekend seminar and Dr. Harley likens waywardness to temporary insanity.

Don't sweat the "no reconciliation" part. You only can control you. Stick to your plan. This is a long war, the battles leading to victory (be that personal recovery or marital recovery) are yet to be fought.

Again...don't negotiate divorce or separation discussions. Keep MB your secret. Guard your computer, delete temporary files every so often. Don't choose to be automatically logged in so she can obtain your password here.

Sorry for your day. Great job transferring some money. It ain't over by a long shot...MANY, MANY marriages have been saved using the MB principles even after a divorce filing. It doesn't mean crap in this struggle. You are just as likely to save your marriage as you were yesterday.

Mr. Wondering

Pepperband, thank you. That helps me to know. I've seen your other posts and they've been really helpful to me. I appreciate it. So your H knew the other woman for 19 years before the affair started? Wow. I'll bet his buddy isn't very happy with him, huh?

HWW:

When do you think the EA actually Started?

Yes, they knew each other for 14 years.

But it seems that you don't think it was anything more than a EA for a while.

You say it went PA after discovery. Do you think it might have been PA before that?

You are nine weeks into the knowledge of the A, but only 1 week into MB.

Your WW Filed? Interesting. There is something more going on.

What do I mean by that? Your WW is moving the bus quickly. Unusual for most WS's around here.

IF the A had only started recently.

She may be trying to save face, and to show OM: "Hey! I'm Available!"

The first six months of an A create the most activity. If the A partners are going to get together, it will generally happen in the first 6 months.

It's about emotional needs. The BS meets many, but the OM meets some others. SSOOO, WW thinks that the OM will meet these others as soon as they can be together.

So, remember, what is happening now, is only the very first steps. Your actions, and the knowledge you gain from MB, will get you to a place in your future where you can get WW back.

Because OM has his own issues and WW doesn't see them all, YET.

She will, the deeper she gets in with OM.

And call OM's W and let her know that WW filed today.

I'm sure that OM knows, but sometimes, Waywards like to give it to the OP as a "Gift" Sort of like "Surprise!, See what I have done for you!" If you get to spoil that, it's a good thing!

And it can also terrify OM. Makes him think of the future with your WW and your kids. The responsibilty factor really cranks up then.

I know your OM has been D'ed before, so he has already crossed that hurdle, but contact OM's W just the same.

HAng in there.

It took you how many years of M to get here? It can take a while to get back.

But it will be a new M, and a better one. When it works out.

LG

lousygolfer, 'When did the EA start?' I suppose I don't really know, but my wife says the end of January '07.

My wife has said to me that, 'the OM can talk to her like no one else'. She says, 'he knows her better than anyone'. She used to work for him until 3/2006 when she received a big promotion. She then began to report to a different city and the OM's career began to fall apart. My wife says she didn't see him very much at all for a year, then out of desperation, she went looking for him.

At some point, my wife told him about her feelings for him, and she says the EA began at the end of January, 07.

My wife said it went PA the week after she told me. I've never understood why she felt it necessary to tell me that one.

I don't know what is truth and what is fiction. On the first night, my wife said, 'my love for you is like a brother sister love; I love you because you are the father of my children'. That was 3/25/07. Then 4/17/07 this was published and everything in it is exactly, EXACTLY my wife:

USA Today Article

The name (the first article name that starts with 'M'), the dates, the personal attributes, the OM's description, the quote; everything is exactly the same. The article really spooked me.

How could my wife be interviewed like this? Well, she's a very narsacistic human being right now. For excitement, she may have gladly volunteered when a request for volunteers went out. She works in the HR headquarters department of one of the biggest companies in the world, located in the midwest. I could easily see a request go out to employees asking for confidential interviews. You will also notice that the author DOES NOT say he changed the names. This one still bugs me.

I confronted my wife with the article and instead of acting confussed and surprised, she became surprised and defensive. She pretty quickly accused me of writing the article. She asked me one other time if I believed that she gave the interview. I said 'yes'. She said, 'I can only laugh at that'.

Lousygolfer, I'm more than 1 week into MB. I've been reading HNHN and the web-site for some time. I've only just recently started to post.

I will call the OM's Wife. I tried three times yesterday.

Wife was particularly happy last night. It felt like she was reveling about filing for divorce and reveling in the sadness I felt and couldn't completely hide.

HWW, I have great hope for your M.

I read the article... sickening. Sickening, but nothing that hasn't graced these boards before. I hope it wasn't your W... it certianly doesn't sound or look like "soulmate true love" in that forum, does it?

It sounds to me like your W is what alcoholics call an adult child. It seems like she is repeating patterns from her childhood, and I wonder if she had more of a friend-like relationship with her abandoned mom growing up (similar to what she is now doing with your oldest daughter.)

OM is a loser and sounds a lot like my ex-OM, who also married a OW from his first M. I wonder if she has caller ID and isn't answering her phone because she doesn't recognize the number. Do you know where she lives? It is CRUCIAL that you speak with her.

I'm sorry your W seemed happy about filling and making you feel bad. That's typical, horrible WS behavior. Keep posting here... you're doing a great job and this is a wonderful, transforming place of love. I'm convinced I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for the guidance of these boards.

KM

Katie Mae...

Good to see you around again. Hope things are well.

HWW,

That article could be anybody. The chance it's your wife is VERY slim. You see...all WW's pretty much read from the same script. The say the same exact things. It's all really predictable.

Further...what they say isn't necessarily the truth. It's their wayward fantasy and the rationalizations and justifications to support that fantasy.

Your wife is feeling contented today because she THINKS she did something to take her from ****** and UNHAPPINESS to FUN, LOVE, HAPPINESS. Problem is...whereever SHE goes...there SHE will be. UNHAPPINESS will follow her. Her "feelings" have nothing to do with YOU...it's ALL about her and her temporary/permanent problems.

This is why you are not to enable her. Your Plan A is to make you attractive and a viable alternative to OM. But you can't protect her from the consequences of her choices. Make leaving you and the family as uncomfortable and unhappy a proposition as can be. Don't hold her up as she heads for rock bottom all by herself.

I would like to know what the petition is asking for. Typically, waywards feel entitled to everything. They want as much of the marital money as possible, the kids, the house, everything. However, this is also going to be her lawyers tactic. He/she will file for everything hoping to negotiate down from there. Occassionally, the wayward doesn't want anything but to escape and they direct their lawyer to be fair...hoping for a quick settlement so they can then pursue their soulmate. This is a mistake by them. At that point YOU respond asking for EVERYTHING then you both have to negotiate from there. IF she wants a quick out you CAN take advantage of this but don't be afraid to hammer her hard for alimony, spousal support, full child custody, she gets supervised visitation and her clothes and personal property. ETC.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

Again...protect you animinity here by being sure to log out and close down the computer regularly, clear the history and temp files. In discovery, your wife is going to start snooping around your stuff. Count on it. Further, you should be snagging or making a copy of all your marital financial records for safe keeping. She may have already done this.

That's exactly right! Exactly right! What's really troubling is my wife used to be able to talk to her mother non-stop. Now, she can no longer talk to her mother (or me) because of her intense resentments. The OM has so screwed up her head, it's amazing.

She probably does have caller ID. That's why I've been going to pay phones. I talked to my attorney yesterday about talking to the OM's wife. My attorney (and she has a master's in psych) is really against it. I really like my attorney, alot; so it's tough to superseed her advice.

KM, are you a former WS? Did I read that correctly? Wow, I'd love to hear more of your perspective.
HWW

Mr. W, I know you're right. I've got to let it go. Because my trust in my wife is broken, I don't know what to believe anymore. When she tells me facts about her affair, I wonder, 'Is this meant to keep me off-balance? Has this affair been going on since 1993?' I've been telling my psych what my wife has been telling me. My psych asked me, 'do you have any reason to believe your twins are not yours?' That was a devastating question that I hadn't even remotely considered. It still haunts me.


The petition was very general and did not ask for anything believe it or not. She's going through this whole exercise without any plan. It amazes me. On the one hand, she can't or won't talk to me, but on the other hand, she wants to graciously work with me on separating and ending our marriage. I think we will have to talk to a judge pretty quick because of the kids.

I am making sure I log off and delete my history.

I forget exactly what Mortarman's mantra was...perhaps somebody can come up with the exact words but it goes something like this:

I will not discuss with you divorce, separation or anything regarding the destruction of our family, I WILL speak to you about reconciliation as that is the one and only thing we, the family, are interested it.

I have directed my attorney to handle all matters pertaining to the divorce with little or no further direction from me. I want as little to do with our families destruction as possible. In the meanwhile, I will ask you ...wouldn't a reconciled marriage where you and I are completely in love with each other once again be the best outcome to this mess...it IS possible. Nearly 90% of marriages reconcile after infidelity. Affair marriage NEVER work out. I certainly am not head over heals in love with you today...but I remain by your side...willing to at least try for us and the kids.

Mr. Wondering

P.S. (I always think of something else...sorry)...Fighting for you children, since they are teenages and able to indicate to the court where THEY choose to go means you will have to fight like heck to make sure they choose you. You've already seen your wife playing the "friend" angle as she is thinking like a teenager. Talk to your kids. Make sure they know that having a parent is much better than having a friend. YOU will always be there for them. Even if you do end up splitting up...THEY will remain your #1 priority. It will be hard but together you all can do it. Further...perhaps you can let them in on your plan to a certain extent. Indicating that IF they want your family to survive this they need to trust you. They, just like you, are not responsible for protecting mom from the consequences of her choices. Your oldest may feel like going with her because she doesn't want to see the mom alone when the younger twins stay with you. The best plan for the family reuniting IS they all stay with you right now...they can change their mind later; but, ultimately picking you gives your family the best chance. It's still their choice...and you will love them regardless. (if you are a Godly man and family...you could get into the fight between Right and Wrong, Good and Evil...up to you). You've really got more leeway than those here with younger children as your kids will really decide, to a large extent, where they go.

This is exactly what I told my wife several weeks ago; exactly. She flew into a rage and took all my clothes out of the bedroom and dumped them in the attic. My poor daughter called me, because I ended the conversation with my wife and went to the grocery store. I had to go back to discover my wife in this rage. It got a bit ugly because I lost my cool a bit, but I was the only one who thought of my daughter. Major love buster moment.


I am trying to be the parent; that's all I can do. My 15 year old called me from school and asked me to call her in sick for her last hour. She wanted to go to the pool. I said 'no' because her grades have gone way down and the final hour class is an important class. Besides, I don't want to teach the kids that lying is ok. My wife would have called her in and gladly taken her. My wife is spending money on the kids.

From time to time, my 15 and 12 year old daughters come to me and tell me how much they appreciate my strength and maturity. That gives me hope.

My wife told me never to use 'destruction' or 'destructive behavior again'. Sorry, I'm going to keep using those phrases.

The wife went out and spent a bunch of money on flowers today. It's been something I've been asking to do together with me. I think she did it out of spite, because I had done almost all the laundry.

I'll have to make sure I compliment the garden later.

help, you did good here. additionally, be sure and use the word ADULTERY whenever you refer to her affair.

HWW:

It wasn't your W in the Article. If it was, she would have said YES! The person writing the article just asked around. They didn't ask a major Corporation for assistance. They might have interviewed your W for the POV of a Major Corp HR Dept. But if that was her, she would be gone by now.

The terms are the same, but the interview was much longer and they went for the juicy stuff. And Waywards use the same justifications.

Don't worry about it.

The twins are yours. Bet on it.

Your spouse isn't sneaky enough to have hid it for that long.

Repeat the Mortarman Mantra: I do Marriage, My Attorney does Divorce.

Will she dump your clothes again? Sure. Speak truth: WW Angry.

Standard.

Get ready, the fun begins....

LG

Here's a thought.... plan A your W but plan B the WS.

If she is doing things out of spite, she shouldn't get rewarded for it.

Example:

WS: I bought these plants because I am angry at you.

BS: Those plants are nice. Too bad they feel your anger. Hope they don't die.

*************

WS: I cleaned out the cupboard because I am mad at you.

BS: Well it is good the cupboards are clean but I hope nothing broke in the process. Anger often makes people do thigs they regret.

WS: Aren't you glad I cleaned the cupboards?

BS: I would like to be, your anger is stopping me from fully enjoying your cleaning efforts.

***********************

WS: I am mad at you so I went shopping and spend $500.00 on whatever.

BS: Hm.... well.... that's a crazy reason to go shopping. Now you have me doubting your sanity. (Then go and cancel those cards).

NOTE: These types of situations actually happened. In one case, the amount spent was waaay more than $500.00.... more like tens of thousands. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Quote: KM, are you a former WS? Did I read that correctly? Wow, I'd love to hear more of your perspective.
HWW

Yes. MB saved my M and my soul. I am eternally grateful for these boards. You first posted to me in a response on Chris' thread. I've been gone for a while, but some of the old timers remember me.

Like your W, I also use to talk to my mom all of the time. My H use to wonder, "why does she need to talk to her mom every day?" It's because I was an adult child, and she was an adult child. I have grown up quite a bit since I had my A.

I'm afraid to tell you that things will get worse before they get better. Your W is going to have to hit rock bottom before she is willing to make a change. Keep your boundaries firm in place, and protect yourself from fog babble. It really has nothing to do with you, and has no truth in it (although your W fully believes this is her truth at the moment.) Keep being a stand up guy for your kids, and remember that you are doing what your W's father NEVER DID for her mom, and deep down she knows it.

KM

Thanks. That helps me release it. You feel so alone on these things, and it's so, so easy for your mind to invent crap.
Who is Mortarman? Good stuff; is there more?

Katie_Mae, whew, it's painful to imagine worse things yet to come. That's a frightening statement! I wish I had a crystal ball.

Now that my wife has sued me for divorce, I wonder whether my boundaries mean anything any more. I am thinking that my boundaries are more example for my kids and her, then anything else now.

Katie Mae, do you have a post that tells your story in more detail?

Hey HWW,

I went back through my old threads and the earliest one has my H and I in recovery. If anyone knows how to retrieve old posts that are no longer visible, please let me know. It's unfortunate because I first came here as an active WW, so I think it would be helpful for people to see the possible trajectory a WW can take with the support of MB.

The truth is, my story really isn't different than most WS. In a nutshell, I turned away from my M in time of crisis. I didn't tell H how I was feeling, and I began a relationship with my "soulmate", a serial cheater. I was with OM on and off for three years. Before OM, H was the only man I was in love with and had SF with, so I really thought OM was "fate." OM was a serial cheater and had had numerous A before me (and after I spoke to his W, it turned out he was having another A the same time he was with me). OM had no intention of leaving his W to be with me, his "soulmate", so I kept trying to end the A but I was "in love" and highly addicted (I did everything but tell H and OMW, so I was a mess for a very long time. For all BSs out there, TELL OPs SPOUSE RIGHT AWAY IF THEY DON'T ALREADY KNOW, it's crucial to ending the A!)

During this time, I said horrible things to H, and was completely unavailable to him as a W for nearly three years. When I confessed my A, he said he wanted to work things out. He actually said he felt relieved, because for three years he thought he had done something wrong. I still feel sick when I think about this.

Today we are in recovery, thanks to MC and numerous Harley books. I went to IC, read many wonderful self-help books, and continue to self-help journal on a daily basis. I have set up boundaries for myself and my M, as has H.

Probably my most noteworthy post I could find that was still available is this one:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3073453
It's about the lowest point in my A. I hope other WWs lurking out there read it and take note.

Anyway, I didn't mean to threadjack, but I am here to help as I can. I've learned A LOT about myself and my former behaviors, so I know where your W is and what she's feeling. Don't fear the divorce papers... keep your boundaries firm!! She is absolutely crazy right now, and needs someone sane in her life. Don't let her walk all over you, but if you love your W please don't give up either. She will worship the ground you walk on someday.

KM

KatieMae, Thank you so much. First, did you look at the archive thread section? I saw a lot of old posts in the archive area.

Look here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB1

You aren't threadjacking by sharing this info with me. It helps.

Er, not to threadjack, but did anyone else note that Steve Harley's registraton date was December 31, 1969 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

This is a very interesting post. My wife is in a strong emotional affair.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3099869

Hiker45 at the end of the post talks about the length of the EA in relation to the success rate of restoring the marriage. I wonder what length of time he has in mind?

Well, I bought 'Surviving An Affair' this morning. It's a bit depressing reading about emotional affairs. Dr. Harley has a scale and I'm definitely on the far right of his scale. Phew . . . what a road to travel.

You don't know for certain that it was a reciprocal emotional affair for that long. They COULD have had just a close friendly professional relationship for a number of years that only just recently went beyond that.

You and your wife have a history together that predates this relationship by many years. Don't sweat recovery just yet....bust up the affair, make the divorce process difficult (through your attorney...as you will be the family guy protecting the children and sitting back), and don't enable your wife's destruction of the family by helping her destroy it. Then lets see what happens.

Trying to pinpoint your situation exactly is impossible. You need to protect your lovebank and searching for answers and finding the worst case scenario's is causing you to lose hope. Losing hope only bleeds your lovebank faster. Protect it by keeping a positive attitude. YOU are the better man. YOU are her God-given husband. Being hopeless makes you act hopeless...acting hopeless, needy and desparate is NOT attractive. It's not the way you were when you two dated...was it??? Where's that cocky guy from way back when that landed the girl of his dreams??? That's the guy you should be...cause her affair IS NOT about you...you should remain the person you always were.

I know...easier said than done...but, at least, work towards becoming that guy again by taking care of yourself and working on the one thing you CAN control...YOU.

YOU will make it.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W., Thanks. You're right about the hopeless feeling. My wife has been happier since she filed on me, which kind of sucks. Her cheerfulness was fueling my hopeless feelings. I was a bit blue last weekend after I was told by my attorney that she filed Thursday. Last night, my wife came to me to talk a couple of times.

I had a nice dinner prepared for the family, and I've been looking good having lost 30lbs, died my hair to lose some grey, and I've been keeping my tan up. It took me aback a bit when she came to me to engage in some pleasant conversation. Was she reveling in her legal action? It felt like it. I talked pleasantly with her, but I didn't let the conversation run too long. I found myself avoiding eye contact with her and being very careful.

A week or two ago, my wife accused me of stalking her; saying 'she felt something similar to sexual harrassment in the work place' at home with me. She even shared this with my 15 year old daughter; imagine! So last night, when she came to talk, I kind of backed up a bit. When I walked around the house, I avoided getting too close or blocking a door. At times, it felt undignified.

My thinking is to avoid love-busters at all costs, and let her pick the moments to fill her own love bank with me. I know conversation is a BIG need on her part, and lately, all our conversations have been love busters because of the resentments she bears against me. It's almost like she can't help but become enraged during seemingly benign conversations with me. Conversation with my wife further drains my bank.

I'm continuing to study 'Surviving an Affair'.

Mr. W. Thanks for all your support.

HWW

Hey HWW,

Is your W still at home, or is she in and out? Have you spoken to OMW? I'm glad you're reading SAA... it's very, very helpful.

What are you doing to take care of yourself right now? Being here is good... reading SAA is good... how are your kids doing?

KM

Hi KatieMae, I'm so glad you posted to my thread!

My wife travels two to three days a week. She has not moved out. My kids are distressed, but they claim they've 'come to grips' with what's going on. The evidence points otherwise. Unfortunately, I bear the brunt of their acting out and it's hard, very hard. My wife has tried to turn blame on me especially with my 15 year old daughter. My wife has made my 15 year old her best friend and tells her too much. My 15 year old started sucking her thumb again. She is seeing a psych. My wife still thinks everyone is fine and will get through this unscathed.

I'm maintaining my boundaries with the kids, I do not allow them to be unruly or disrespectful, and I work on being the only adult in the house right now; phew!

I'm maintaining my weight. I lost 30lbs! I haven't weighed this since college! I'm 6'2" and I weigh 185. I walk and occassionally go for a swim.

My wife has actually come to me recently to talk, nicely. It surprised me a bit. She also called me yesterday to talk a bit. For the past couple of months, almost all conversations with her were full of her resentments toward me. I was looking at my emails to her for the past couple of months (since D-Day 3/25) and I realized I've really dramatically reduced the contact I've been having with her.

SAA talks about four rules for recovery: The rules of protection, care, time and honesty. The book hints at recovery when the WS isn't fully engaged, but I'm wondering about how that works? Any thoughts?

One of my wife's biggest needs is conversation and attention. I really want to give it to her, but not when it leads to further love busters. For the time being, I'm keeping contact with my wife at a minimun. I'm letting her determine when and how much she wants to talk.

I'm still trying to get some job interviews. I'm hoping I can land a good position out of state. I'm really wanting to move for two reasons: 1. Plan B, and 2. get my wife completely away from the OM and her job. I have a preliminary interview today at 1:30 for a position in Virginia. I'm not sure how that will work with kids involved and that has me worried.

Week 11

Rule of Protection.

It seems like the 1st rule, the 'Rule of Protection'. Must occur first and be solidly put in place before really engaging in full marital recovery and working on the other three rules; care (meeting needs), time (15 hours a week) and honesty.

"Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness'.

This includes love-busters, and the Policy of Joint Agreement. It's as though I'm engaged in this first rule unilaterally for the time being.

Why is my wife's conversation with me so nice the last couple of days?

I just received another pleasant phone call from her this afternoon. She was pleasant, happy and joked with me. It feels like she's just giddy about her divorce filing. All I could do is go along with the pleasantness of the conversation and Plan 'A' her, but it's a crummy feeling. I feel like I'm going along with her fantasy; that we'll be divorced and one big happy family. Is it possible to be too pleasant with your WW?

Shouldn't I be expecting to see depression and withdrawl if I was really seeing the beginning of recovery?

Help,

I would guess she is living in the fantasy that now that you two are going to divorce and she will get what she wants that you two will be friends. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My suggestion is to point out that you don't need friends such as she. If/when you divorce that you will be at best civil to her. I would also be looking into the custody issues and the fact that she travels soo much.

She wants this divorce to be "friendly" because it makes her feel less guilt. SHe wants this divorce to be "friendly" because she can then claim that you wanted it to and did not fight it. She wants this divorce to be "friendly" so that she can tell the kids it was not her fault.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Please consider your actions. I will also say that if you talk to her and she starts to LB, simply say, I will not tolerate your speaking like that to me, and leave the room.

You need to establish boundaries, not LB'ing does not mean getting run over.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

If she really is in withdrawl from the lack of contact with OM, yes, she should be in depression and hurting and upset. If she's not, then my first suspiscion is that NC is NOT in place.

Yea, it felt like she was in her fantasy world. Nothing else makes sense. I laughed a bit with her, but I ended the phone call. I couldn't take anymore, because I have no idea from what direction her pleasantness was coming.

It is really hard to know how to handle these moments, especially when they come as a surprise. For my wife, I believe conversation is her most important need. I want to meet her most important need with all my heart. It felt like I added something to her bank this afternoon, but it also didn't feel genuine either. You come away feeling used.

I'm just getting caught up on your thread. Is there any reason to think that NC IS in place? Otherwise, it could be what JL said (in her world, you will be friends after divorce) or it could be garden-variety cake-eating. Maybe OM was unavailable.

I don't think the reason matters. Just go with it. Having added to the love bank is the most important part. If she LB'ed you, it's different, but if you came away feeling used because you were trying to figure out why she was being nice, then you're overthinking it. Just go with it. Yes, it sucks.

I saw this:


Which is your goal? Breaking up the affair to save your marriage or getting a good divorce settlement? Think about your attorney's motivations. Exposure runs counter to what most people (including some therapists) think, but it is a cornerstone of Plan A. In my case, the OMW found out about the affair much earlier than I did but didn't tell me. If she had, I think we would be in a different place right now.

Have you read all the stuff in Bob's Toolbox?

Huh?
I don't understand your reasoning here. If you get a job offer in another state, your wife will wave good bye to you as you drive away. Forgive my bluntness - but right now she will feel gald that she does not ahve to see you every day, and be faced with her own guilt. Your wife would stay behind, in YOUR home, with your kids, so the kids would not have to move, or change schools, or find new friends. She would use this against you, to gain custody.
So WHY do you think this would get her away from her job, and away from OM? She has just filed for D - why would she move with you?

(sorry if this sounds too harsh - but I keep reading about how you hope to get another job out of state, but that seems like the worst thing you could do. Your 15 year old daughter would freak out. 15 years girls do not like to change schools)

Well, what do you suggest for Plan B? My wife constantly complains about money. The needs I'm providing her now would disappear when I move. My kids will eat the other man alive when he shows up at the house. It's the best plan I've got going right now; however, it's a moot issue without a good job offer. Otherwise I stay where I'm at; keep earning the income I'm earning out of the house; and sue for alimony and child support. But, there's no Plan B in that option.

You need to go read about plan B again. It does not mean leaving your children. It does not mean you have to move to another state. It means you deal with child issues via a third party and since she is the one traveling she should move out. I am not sure but legal separation would work IF it is allowed in your state. IN that you are protected financially, and there are boundaries on who lives where etc.

Check it out.

God Bless,

JL

I agree that leaving now would be one of the worst things you could do. Plus, I'm not convinced that you're ready for Plan B yet.

If I am offered a position, then I would move toward the end of the summer; about five months after D-Day. The OM lives in our town. The financial need is one of my wife's biggest needs. I have always provided domestic support, affection, family commitment, recreation, and other needs to my wife. By moving, my wife will stop receiving the fullfilment of these needs. The OM won't be able to step into my shoes. I can not get a good paying job in Michigan, but I believe I can get a very good paying executive position outside of Michigan. I can Plan B my wife, offer her a significant financial improvement, and get her permanently away from the OM. If I do not move, then I will not be able to change completely to meet her needs. She will always be able to fence sit and go back and forth between me and the OM, and have me continue to meet some of her needs.

As for my 15 year old. Her grades have plummeted. She's looking at an E,D,C and possibly worse in her core courses. Her psych just started her on medication. She is a young sophomore. It may be beneficial for her to repeat her sophomore year at another school. I do absolutely realize this will be very difficult for her.

By the way, I have a court appearance with my 15 year old. She must appear in juvenile court this friday for a minor in possession charge.

Getting my family out of Michigan and making a fresh start somewhere is what I think we all need.

FYI: Previous advice concerning my search for employment outside Michigan.

I've read and re-read 'Surviving An Affair'. The first rule is the 'Rule of Protection'. As far as I can tell, that's my Plan A until she decides to reconcile. The second rule is the 'Rule of Care' and that means meeting my wife's needs. Financial support, conversation are her two big un-met needs with me.

I'm clearly meeting a bunch of other needs now, but not all. In HNHN, the book clearly says that you can't meet 80% of your spouse's needs. You need to meet 100% of their needs. Isn't this right? So, I feel like I need to remove all the needs I'm providing her now (Plan B), then be prepared to meet 100% of her needs if and when she seeks me out. And, I need to set the stage so she can't waffle back and forth between me and the OM.

My advice, hww, is presuming the affair is over. WW will go with you because she's got no other options. She may not be super excited about your marriage but OM's out of the picture...so she goes with you down south to get a fresh start herself. IF OM is still involved and her filing divorce worked so they can be together....then moving may be a problem.


I have no problem with you interviewing. Even if you get the job, you can change your mind later. I'm only a tax attorney...so I have no idea how this could/will effect your legal claims. Seems the kids are old enough to choose which parent they want to live with...so, regardless of the Job hunt .... you will win or lose based upon their own preferences.

I do worry about them adjusting to a new environment. A broken home AND moving to a new state and new schools potentially without the support of one parent would be awefully tough on any adolescent. This fact alone...may incline them to choose to stay and live with your WW (assuming the divorce does go through) where they otherwise would have chosen you. How obligated do you feel to protect your children from her negative influence??? Are you prepared to go alone, without anyone in your family???? How do you feel about potentially forcing them to choose between not seeing you hardly ever and not seeing Mom hardly ever???

Again...you CAN always change your mind. You can always move and see what happens...only to return say next spring, if and when you realize that the plan to save your family didn't work. There is a chance that your wife will give-in and just go if she believes you are going regardless.

Sidenote - this "meeting her financial needs" stuff is not the be all end all. If you were to get this or some other big job it is not going to "poof" fix things. In Plan A...you TRY to meet what needs you can...but busting up the affair is the supreme goal. NOTHING can be recovered with a third party in the marriage. Get him out, once and for all, and THEN you can really talk to your wife about moving. All long as she is in the affair...she doesn't get a vote about where you move to hopefully with the kids.

Finally, consult with your attorney about how this would/could all play out in the event you did get divorced. I'm not even positive 12 years get to choose yet.

This is perhaps an interesting plan that needs hashing out with your attorney.

Mr. Wondering

While in Plan A, am I not emphasizing the important needs that my wife will allow me to fill, but doesn't appreciate inside her fantasy? Isn't Plan B the moment when these needs are taken from her? How am I going to do that in a reasonable period of time, if one of us doesn't move out? If I move, then I want her to see that it's also to meet some of her other needs.


I'm doing what I can to bust the affair up. However, I don't see that happening until my wife crashes and burns a bit. Again, Plan B; right? How else do I get my wife to crash and burn?

New: Well I just found out that the OM filed for divorce on the same day that my wife filed for divorce. The OMW has retained the same attorney I have. This is so painful.

Called the wife to confront her on the latest development. I was calm and listened to her side of the story. She continues to tell everyone that she and the OM are just friends.

I asked her, why did you both file for divorce on the same day if you are just friends? She said it was a coincidence; then she said, he filed the week before, so it wasn't on the same day. I asked her about the OM going back to his wife (he isn't), she said, she didn't care and he had his own reasons for divorcing his wife. I asked her why both people would file for divorce and neither one of them wanted to work on their marriage, if they weren't in an adulterous affair. She said she's done for her own reasons and he had his reasons, but it had nothing to do with each other.

I calmly asked her these questions so she could lie to me. I didn't argue with her. I let her give her own reasons. I just let her know that I don't believe her.

The goal that you should be going for is to get custody of your children (because you are the better parent and your wife travels), get her kicked out the house, and have to pay you child support. This is what you should be pushing for with your attorney.

Don't argue with her. She's leaving you for him. She knows it, he knows it, his wife knows it, and you know it. Arguing will only hurt your plan A. Fight like a bulldog for custody, use of the home, child support (and alimony if she makes more than you). This will quickly give her a much needed dose of reality.

Yep, that's where I'm at now.

Oh, and make it clear that you will NOT be part of her life after the divorce. Not friends, not ANYTHING in any fashion.

She's probably working under the common fantasy that everyone will up as one big happy family/friends thing...that bubble needs to be popped. That was a big factor in the end of my wife's affair...she had that fantasy as well, and I spelled out very clearly for her that I would NEVER be part of her life again if she left me for him. We're now 3 years recovered.

Yep, that is definitely her fantasy. She even tried to get me to start planning "family" vacations. I definitely told her that wasn't going to happen, and that I did NOT want to be anywhere near the OM. But, I haven't threatened her with the NEVER be part of her life again yet. That's coming and will definitely be spelled out in Plan B.

Yeah...the affair continues.

Proof: Never trust a Wayward, they lie.

She wants to noramlize things to make it all seem logical and acceptable. They both divorce...out of miserable marriages and then abracadabra...then end up dating and together.

You see...this makes moving difficult. However, if and when you win custody, permanent custody of the kids, you MAY then file a petition asking for approval to move more than 100 miles away to pursue a lucrative job offer. Until then, maybe you should not speak about it. Though your kids get a say and to a large extent choose where they want to live...the judge, I believe, makes the ultimate decision. IF they prove you are lining up to leave the state immediately, maybe your WW and her attorney will use that against you in court OR against you when trying to win favor with your children. In the alternative...indicating you are leaving and the kids can either come with you or stay...but regardless you are gone to a great job offer in North Carolina does send a direct message to WW that you have no intent of being her friend or sticking around to help/enable her poor choices. You are leaving...(btw...I find this to be a difficult position to put a 12 year old in)

It's a very delicate situation that really only your attorney can counsel you on. As a SAHD, you've got the upper hand right now. Don't jeopardize that...just love your children as best you can. They are going to need your consistentcy and support right now...despite how easy going they will TRY to act about it.

EXPOSE.

Also...meeting needs is not an affair busting strategy. You meet the needs you can to make you an atractive alternative to the affair, meeting her financial needs is tricky here. You can't enable her affair either. Her financial agenda is to rip you off. She feels entitled to everything as well as destroying you.

Yes..in Plan B, separation is needed; but, this is HER poor choice, you are the stay at home parent, if ANYONE leaves, it's her. Don't you dare EVER move out. That is your hill to die....unless you want OM living in your home with your kids.

W

I went to plan B for about 8 hours before my WW realized that we weren't going to be friends, and quickly agreed to NC with OM (which she broke 5 times, but hey, she was an addict.

Yes, the affair continues. My wife's lying continues. The intensity of this situation really makes me wonder. My title is 'I feel like my situation is worse than anyone elses' and it still feels like it. She is so determined.

It turns out that the OMW is working with the same law firm that I am. So, that probably explains some things.

I can not think of things I need to be doing for the stick at this time. The affair has gone deep, deep underground.

The divorce will raise some new realities.

Wife (inside her fantasy world) has invited me to go birthday present shopping with her. I'm not sure. On the one hand, I can Plan A her, but on the other hand I feel like I'm feeding her fantasy.

I'm really going back and forth on this shopping trip my wife asked me to go on with her. Should I Plan A her and meet her needs, or begin to withdraw because I'm feeding the fantasy?

I've asked my attorney, 'how can I get my wife out of the house'?

The "stick" of Plan A is one way you either end up using it in unison with the carrot to save your marriage OR the stick absolutely drives her nuts and SHE will decide to move out because she can't stand your logical, loving and reasonable intolerance of her adulterous behavior.

Waywards HATE having the light shined on their illicit behavior. They will do ANYTHING, including abandoning children, money, property OR in the alternative taking everything, filing false police reports, filing bogus restraing orders to AVOID being rightfully judged for their behavior that they "just can't not do".

She'll certainly stay put if you make it easy and comfortable.

Examples to think about: Rules like OM doesn't meet or speak to our children; You do not speak to OM on the phone or on the computer (IM'ing) in the family home; We are to be completely honest with our children...this effects their lives, they are old enough to know and are entitled to the full truth;

You do not DEMAND such...you merely state it in a nuetral, matter of fact tone. If she disobey's, you call her on it in a respectful nuetral tone.

THERE IS NO POJA'ING WITH A WAYWARD SPOUSE. They are an addict. Addicted to their OP. They won't agree to anything unless it serves their addiction in some way or another...so don't bother trying UNTIL NO CONTACT IS ESTABLISHED. You can't negotiate with 3 people in the marriage.

Good luck. Yes, your situation is tough, but not impossible. Whatever happens YOU will become a better person and save or leave this relationship KNOWING YOU did all you could to save your family. YOU will endure...with integrity.

Mr. Wondering

In bold I've definitely done! In italics has been a bit harder because she's not been telling the kids the truth, and it's been difficult to overcome. She's manipulating them. For example, my oldest keeps confidential what her mother tells her. Only when she says something really wrong, do I correct her thinking.

What does POJA'ING mean? Thanks for the encouragement. I'm also thinking that a tough divorce process will bring some reality into the situation.

HWW

Yes...the divorce process CAN be a stick

Especially

IF you don't settle to quickly.

They will do EVERYTHING in their power to get you to settle early. THEY (WW and OM) do NOT want to be deposed; nor put on the stand. Cockroaches prefer the darkness and secrecy just as infidels do.

Try not to waste your attorney fees battling and negotiating a settlement such that you can endure, at least, until you get the opportunity to depose them both. The BIGGEST advantage is you will get the full and complete truth about your life AND such truth will forever be documented.

Far too often, I've seen and met divorced persons that are bitter FAR too long because they FAILED to ascertain all the events and facts that proceeded their divorce. I'm not saying you for sure are getting divorce...but, if it is God's will...at least determine EVERYTHING that happended to you so you don't have to speculate, after the fact...when you are unable to do anything about it.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - POJA is a MB principle. It stands for Policy of Joint Agreement. It is meant for marriage recovery and enhancement, not to be done with a active wayward.

I'm still looking for some advice on the above questions. My wife (and the OM) filed for divorce Thursday a week ago. I'm really not in a give-my-wife-undivided-attention-and-fill-her-conversation-need-mood. Especially since it perpetuates her fantasy. But, maybe I should just endure and chaulk it up as more Plan A'ing.

Let met please add a bit here.


You have children. It is the nature of an affair for the adulterer to provide the kids a very distorted version of the events and circumstances leading up to a divorce that is the result of an affair. This is patently unfair to both the betrayed parent and the betrayed children.

A divorce proceedings complete with transcript provides a method of preserving a far more accurate version of events than does a settlement. Settlements serve the purposes of the courts, which are overwhelmed with cases and do not serve the best interest of a betrayed parent in terms of insuring the kids learn what really happened at a point in time when they are old enough to understand and need to have the facts, the whole facts and nothing but the facts.

Larry

Go shopping with her. If you are in Plan A...then Plan A her. Your frustration level is an indication to me that Plan B may be coming soon, like when she moves out!!!. However, Plan B will be ineffective if not proceeded with a decent Plan A.

I know it's tough. I've done it.

Here's a little list of do's and don'ts I compiled. You likely read this in Longhorn's "For Newly Betrayed Spouses" thread over on the Infidelity Just Found Out board. It's pinned to the top and has LOTS of Plan A advice. Anyway, the list:

DO's

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

Instead of just not spending much on her because you don't want to enable or go overboard into this fantasy of hers. Withhold purchasing things for her because DIVORCE is expensive. Don't say it angry. It's just a fact.

"Honey, hadn't we be minding our finances a bit right now..with lawyers involved and all there is not going to be a lot of extra cash to be spending frivilously...we've gotta think about the kids here too"

That kind of "reality" is exactly what the wayward does NOT want to hear. The don't want to hear how difficult or uncomfortable this is going to be because they can NOT consider NOT doing it. They think...stop talking...it's going to happen anyway...so if no one talks about it then I don't have to think about it UNTIL it happens.

Now don't keep hammerin' her. You are in Plan A. Balance. Carrot -- Stick.

w

Mr. Wondering, I am not sure what made me read this thread... but I did.

I am so glad I did.

My WH has been trying to kick me to the curb because he cannot stand to look at me. He has accused me of stalking him (which is laughable... because I am not) and has had his lawyer send me a letter to try and scare me into giving up.

I will not let it get me. Thank you for your post further up on this page. It really helped me.

MrW. Thanks for the advice. The shopping is for the twins upcoming birthday present. I'll go and stop withdrawing. I sure her attorney has told her to deny the OM from now on. So, when I confronted her last week with the coincidental divorce filing, she had to lie through her teeth about it.

I'll get back to Plan A.

Don't sweat trying to convince her.

You know she's having an affair

She knows she's having an affair.

Her attorney likely told her to cool it...but she's an entitled wayward. She CAN'T. Just bust her when she does something.


When she says "kids will be just fine". You ask her to explain and then listen: "mmmm, honey, how is that?", "So you think they will be just fine...interesting, how is that, what is going to happen?"

YOU won't be able to teach her or convince her of anything anyway...so why bother...meet her need for communication and just ask her to explain further, she may just go down a thought patter she didn't intend to take herself...but she then can't UNthink it. She plants her own seeds of doubt which MAY germanate when the consequences of her choices come rolling in and she is faced with making new choices.

Mr. W

I had a difficult discussion with my 15 year old daughter. Based on what her mother had told her and with great conviction, my daughter tried to tell me how the OM was not a factor any more; that mom was divorcing me for other reasons; that the OM was going back to his wife because she had developed cancer again and was dying. I kept trying to tell her that she should trust me; that I was a wise person who was working hard to keep the family together; that more was going on than she new; that there are reasons why mom was behaving like this, but it was inappropriate for me to go into more detail.

But, my daughter continued to argue with me that the OM was not a factor any more; that he wanted to go back to his family and work things out for the sake of his son and his ailing wife. So I told her that the same day mom filed for divorce against me, my attorney informed me that the OM filed for divorce against his wife. Her balloon popped.

My daughter was shocked and enraged. I felt really bad about the conversation, but I could not let my daughter perpetuate her mother's lie.

Good point, especially with the current distortions. I hadn't considered this as a tool for the future.

Nobody in your situation can think of everything. This is why this web site is so important - others who care watching your back and helping.

Larry

The wife was AWOL this afternoon. Unfortunately for my 15 year old (who was convinced there was no affair and I was to blame for the divorce just two days ago), my wife lied to her and my 15 year old is mad, unhappy, angry, and confused.

I must admit, I shared a few things with my daughter including: mom is behaving like an alcoholic or a drug addict; her lying is a symptom of the addiction; only when the affair stops will her lying stop.

I'm not sure if I went too far with my 15 year old.

HWW

15 years old is old enough to handle the situation. It will be a good life lesson for her on infidelity. And remember, you are not subjecting her to this, your WW is. She is the one destroying your family. My W still has issues from her parent's D, and that happened after she graduated high school.

I agree with Jim. Your daughter is likely old enough and mature enough to handle this.

My kids were 15 and 17 at d-day. When I confronted WW(at the time), she informed me she was going to go live with OM, whom she'd never met. I told her that this was HER decision...so SHE could explain it to the kids. When they got home from school, she sat them down in the living room and told them what was going on...they were LIVID.

NONE of them supported their mom with her choice...not at all. She'd hoped that they'd come visit her at OM's starting that summer (d-day was in May), they point blank told her that it wasn't happening, that they knew that there was no way that they'd leave me like that. They told her that the EARLIEST that they might see her would be the following May, after school let out...so she was now facing living without her kids for a whole year!

They were GREAT for bringing the reality back to her. When she tried telling them that they'd 'love OM', my oldest son told her that he'd "love to kick OM's @$$".

Don't try to 'win your daughter over', but also let your wife learn how to face the reality of her daughter's anger and upset over the whole thing. Make it clear that this is standard fallout for your wife's wayward behavior.

Hang in there.

Owl and jmwc95, thanks. Well, Marriage Builders, HNHN, and SAA has been very helpful. Last night's blow up was very interesting.

My wife became very angry at me after my 15 year confronted her. My wife was fuming, but I've gotten through my emotional flooding and I did a really good job Plan 'A'ing her anger. I think you all would have been proud. After letting things cool a bit, and also letting my kids see what a mature dad they had, I went to my wife's room to talk to her.

Boy, was she fuming. The first thing out of her was how tired she was of this whole thing. But I sat down on the floor and just talked to her. For forty minutes, I talked about things except the OM. I did ask about the OMW. My daughter told me that the OMW's cancer was back and she was dying. I asked my wife about this and my wife said, 'well they found some spots and she's in for tests'. My wife went on to say that my daughter is 'really into drama'. I chuckled to myself, but agreed with her. I hope my wife, deep down, sees the irony in that comment.

But for forty minutes, I met my wife's biggest (I'm assuming) need: conversation, and it wasn't long before I had her laughing. I couldn't believe how I could get her from absolute hatred to laughing with me.

This morning, my wife actually called me from work to just talk, and tell me some funny stories that happened to her.

I'm not reading much into this other than how MB shows how predictable the behavior is. My wife's fog is as thick as ever. I'm still working on breaking up the affair. I know we won't be able to start the rebuilding process until that happens.

One thing that I wish MB would spend more time on is the period between discovery and the end of the affair. The message board has been helpful regarding this period, but Dr. Harley's books are a little light in discussing this really tough period. I wish Dr. Harley would talk more about Plan A and Plan B than he does.

HWW

Big day. A lot has happened. After last nights strange happenings, the wife took the checkbook and started removing her financial information from the paid bills file. My attorney recommended and we obtained a status quo restraining order; that all happened while my wife and I met with the kids psychiatrist.

At the end of the discussion, the Dr. prompted me to say what was on my mind. I said, talking to the kids about the separation was difficult because of their age. The kids have a hard time understanding transitioning from a single parental unit to two separate parents. I told the Dr. in front of my wife, upon divorce I intend to separate myself physically and emotionally from my wife. I told them both that I've been talking to family, friends and my psychiatrist about this issue, and I do not intend to have any contact with my wife at all upon divorce. I told the Dr. that my children were assuming my wife and I would somehow continue to be some sort of family. The Dr. said he saw the same confusion with the kids himself. At one point, my oldest daughter started talking about planning a family vacation.

My wife became very agitated. Her fanatasy has been a big happy family fantasy from the start. She's based this fantasy on a friend of ours. She's under the impression that the friend, his new wife (OW), and his xwife all get together for family functions. My wife brought this up in front of the kid's psychiatrist. I was ready.

I said, no that's not correct. I spoke to M*** about his divorce and he has told me something very, very different then what you think has been happening in that family. M*** says that they rarely get together, and when they do, it is very painful. My wife was very angry. The Dr. began to calm the situation and the meeting ended.

After the meeting, my wife confronted me about talking to M***. She said, what are doing talking to M***. I said to my wife, you've based this divorce on what happens in that family. I wanted to understand what really happens. You should talk to M*** and find out for yourself.

My wife and I went our separate ways. At some point, my wife will be informed by her attorney about the restraining order.

The rest of the night the wife was fuming. She would not speak to me. I think she will now try to ignore me. I have been candid with her and calm. My attorney sent me the response to the divorce complaint to review. We will begin to start moving the process and asking for my wife to move out of the house (Plan B). I've also been advised to put my out-state job search on hold.

More to come today, I'm very sure.

HWW

Things are really happening fast. I spoke to my older daughter about breaking up the affair. I shared with her why mom is still in the affair and how we will be able to tell when the relationship is truely over (we'll see depression in the wife).

Need advice please. I feel like I need to write my wife a note. I feel like I need to tell her something like this:

"Wife,

I know you are not feeling any love for me. I know you feel as though it is impossible to set aside your resentments toward me and rediscover love for me, but I want you to know that I believe otherwise. I believe this because the difficulties we are having in our marriage are difficulties that many couples have experienced.

Despite the hopeless feelings, the impossiblity, and the resentments, these couples in fact have been able to learn how these things have happened. They have been able to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs, and from that fall more in love with each other than at any time in their life together.

I want you to know that I love you and I continue to want to recover our love and our marriage.

HWW"

It sounds like you handled all of that perfectly!!! WTG!

I wouldn't write her the note tho...in her current state of mind, it will do no good other than make her angry. Simply remain CALM for the next few days. As a matter of fact, be HAPPY. Be loving and kind and caring, and act like nothing's going on at all. This is HER stress right now, not yours. Let HER feel it...and let her see YOU as the calm spot in the middle of the storm.

Its likely to be a good way to attract her back to you in a way. That calm, 'got a plan' demeanor is something that many women appreciate. Even when they don't want to.

Owl, thanks. In SAA, Dr. Harley talks about sending notes and talking on the phone (pg. 77 Plan A), but I agree. It's probably a better idea to let some time pass.

The wife is so certain it's over and unrecoverable.

Oh, also this morning the wife couldn't ignore me. We traded a few "housekeeping" comments back and forth then she stormed off, only to turn around and come back to say one more thing to me.

It was, "it's up to you whether you want to make this easy on yourself or not".

Not much I could say to that threat. I just thought to myself, 'go to work; talk to your attorney; you've got a restraining order waiting for you'.

REALLY MEANS:

Which is what she's REALLY asking for here...she's wanting a 'get out of jail free' card. She wants to end your marriage because she doesn't see any way for her to remain married after what she's done...because she thinks that you'll never forgive her.

My wife felt much the same way. I continually told her that things WERE recoverable, but it all hinged on her making the choice to DO it. She insisted that things would never be the same between us again, that "too much has happened". She was RIGHT...things aren't the same. They're a heck of a lot BETTER now that we've learned all these lessons.

Simply reply back to her that "easy isn't always better, or right". You love her, and you're going to fight for her, and fight to save your marriage. It might not be easy, but its better, its the way you want to live, and its the kind of person you are. You're not giving up, on her, on yourself, or on your marriage. If that's 'harder', well, that's the way its gonna be then.

Feel free to steal any of that that you need in your response to her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think she's more full of accumulated resentments than this fear; that's my wife's problem.


Thanks. I guess it's also a matter of timing too. As my previous post indicated, I was thinking of writing her a little note, but I think I'll wait a bit.

HWW

I'm sure you've seen this around here

remember,

you are sending the message that after divorce you don't intend to be friends or communicate at all with her

Because:

That would be a damaging message to deliver to the children. You need to model to your children appropriate adult behavior...that when someone abuses you, you do not have to stay friends with them. That "THEY" matter. That "THEY" should escape such abuse and remain far, far away from such abuser. Children need to learn right and wrong from their parents. Your wifes behavior is wrong and you refuse to just "get along" so wife can continue living and doing wrong.

You are standing up FOR THE KIDS.


Better angle for any potential custody battle.

Further, be careful involving 15 y/o daughter to much in your plan. I have seen them flipping sides on this website many times. The allure of the cooler acting, no rules, friendly wayward is VERY TEMPTING to an adolescent. Waywards speak with a forked-tongue and can lure in the even the best child. It's OK to tell her things...just don't expect her involvement or discretion.

(I don't know if your wife has done this yet...but, if and when she gets desparate and feels like she is losing daughter...she MAY begin getting really nasty. She will rewrite EVERYTHING you've ever done to her and with her (sexually even with consent) to portray you as a vile vermon. I'd prewarn daughter about that...that as the addict begins to have the feeling of losing their fantasy...they will lash out and do/say anything to restore it. I love you, your mom and your brothers...this family. I've not been perfect but I've always been there for YOU all and will continue to be....just be careful and it is OKAY for you to remove yourself from such situations. I guess the biggest difference is likely, to ME...YOU matter. You won't get that feeling from her...in this current wayward state)

Sorry...kinda rambling.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks. That's a great idea. Things are moving so fast that the above will probably happen soon. I'll have a chance to say these things to her in just a few minutes when I pick her up.

HWW

WOW . . . WOW

The wife was just informed about the restraining order and she is going nuts.

I was calm and careful in what I said to her, but that made her even angrier! If it wasn't for MB, I would have lost it.

My wife is being forced to deal with reality. Phew! That was ugly, ugly, ugly. I hope she can settle down before she comes home. I really don't want this displayed in front of the children.

HWW

Allow your attorney to be the fall guy.

YOU don't discuss divorce, settlement, separation, restraining orders ONLY reconciliation and the family.

You told your attorney to protect your interests and that you wanted as little involvement in the process as possible.

HE thought the RO was a good idea and HE did it.


You can indicate..."Man...I don't know understand why he did that..I'll have to speak with him tomorrow about all this"

You play nice and make your attorney the monster...your attorney won't care.

Then tomorrow you say..."I called him and he just said it was for the best...he was respecting my wish to not be involved by not divulging WHY it was the best...just that it was, he's quite the jerk, I guess...but, I certainly have no choice but to trust him right now. I KNOW he's on my side"

Mr. W

Sounds like matter colliding with anti-matter. or is it fantasy colliding with reality.

Sounds like you are in a better place now. Protect yourself and family first and let the WW feel the pressure. Couple of days ago, she was in fantasy heaven - doesn't sound like she is not as happy now.

This is good btw from Mr W

MrW-

You and I don't agree often, but I REALLY like your suggestion on how to deal with the fallout of this. Smart...very, very smart!

His lawyer won't care one way or another, and it takes the 'heat' off of him somewhat. And STILL lets her suffer the consequences of her actions.

HWW-

You an REO fan? Sounds like time for one of their classics...get the headphones, crank up the volume, and listen to "Ridin' the Storm Out" a couple of hundred times. That's all you need to do for right now. Ride the storm out, protect your family and yourself, and let things go like they need to. It's one more thing that brings the reality home to her that you're NOT willing to let her destroy your family. DO NOT EVER APOLOGIZE for this...simply let it ride and be up front that this is happening as a result of HER actions, and nothing more.

Going nuts is good. It is fantasy clashing with reality, and she doesn't want that to happen. She's pissed that she can no longer manipulate you to get what she wants, and she desperately wants to continue living in fantasy land. She was planning on never having to leave fantasy land while obtaining the divorce from you and being with OM. This was not part of her plan, and she doesn't know where to go from here.

HWW,

I think it was appropriate for you to use the addict analogy to explain your W's behavior to your daughter. When your W finally withdraws and starts rebuilding her life again, she will recognize this as well, and be grateful.

I just hope she recognizes it someday... hopefully sooner than later.

I hope things go well for you when she gets home. I bet she's beyond angry. Don't give up... you're doing a really great job.

KM

Katie_Mae,

Hello and thank you. We went to two different kid functions tonight, but passed each other. It's going to be tough this evening, so thank you for the encouragement. The wife scowled at me when she came through the door. It was really something ... crazy! She's fuming, enraged and extremely agitated. I wonder what she's saying to the OM?

My emotional flooding has passed, so I'm able to stay engaged in a heated conversation with her for much much longer without losing it. I think my calm is making her angrier. If she's totally in outer space, then I'll tell her that we should conclude the discussion because she's too angry.

Check in again. Things are moving fast.

HWW

What a night! Wow! If it wasn't for this board, SAA and HNHN, I would not have been able to do it! Thank You!

The wife is so angry she shakes. She just couldn't stop telling me how she is done and the marriage is over. That may be, but I continued to apply MB principals to her.

This morning she told me something I didn't know; something new. Something is happening to the OM in two weeks, but I don't know. She wouldn't tell me because 'it's none of my business'. I have to find out.

The Wife's OM comment came up when I was requesting her to have no more contact with the OM. I was able to calmly talk to her about a lot of things, including the OM. It's amazing how revisionist history occurs. Even history that's just a few weeks old. I've been keeping a log / diary, so it's going to get hard for my wife to revise too much during the period after D-Day.

The kids were very distressed before the wife returned home late last night. My son and oldest daughter were extremely distraught. We had a huge melt down, but I grabbed three big plastic water glasses and we went outside and threw water on each other. It worked and I was able to get the kids through it.

The wife was so distraught. She talked and talked and talked and accused me of not talking to her. When I tried, she talked over me and continued to talk. I was able to get her to consider and agree to some rules on talking to each other. I'm going to boil down MB principals on talking and email them to her. Any thoughts? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The other breakthrough I was able to accomplish is to get my wife to talk to my psychiatrist. She really needs to spend some time with someone and I was able to get her to at least begin a discussion.

Anyway, rules for talking to each other based on MB principals. SAA has some rules, but I'm going to try to work in some love buster principals too.

HWW

My wife and I had such a difficult time talking the other night because of my wife's anger, that I had to talk to her about how we would talk to each other. I thought about the "Good Conversatoin Enemies and Friends" in HNHN, but I decided to use the Policy of Joint Agreement Guidelines found in SAA instead. It seemed to fit our problems better. This is what I emailed my wife yesterday:

Guideline 1. Set ground rules to make conversation and negotiations pleasant and safe.

[*]i. be pleasant and cheerful throughout you discussion on an issue.

• a. avoid being disrespectful, angry outbursts, selfish demands
  
• b. conversation time should be 50/50
  
• c. take a break if needed

[*] ii. put safety first - do not threaten to cause pain or suffering when you discuss or negotiate; even if negotiations fail.
[*] iii. if you reach an impass, stop for a while and come back to the issue later.

Guideline 2. Identify the problem / topic / issue from the perspective of both you and your spouse.

Guideline 3. Brainstorm solutions with abandon.

Guideline 4. Choose a solution that is appealing to both of you. You must both enthusiastically agree to a solution, otherwise go back to guideline 3.

I still feel like my situation is very, very bad. My wife is starting to have a really tough time with the divorce process and more is coming at her pretty fast the next few days.

Last night my wife seemed to crash a bit. She changed beds and was in our bed for the first time in a couple of months. I said, "I see we are going to sleep together tonight". She didn't respond and prepared for the worst.

Later I came to bed and she didn't fight; however, sometime a little later, my oldest D came in to the bedroom, looked at both of us in the same bed and asked, "what is going on". I simply said, 'we are trying to sleep dear'. My daughter left, and my wife rolled over on her back. I didn't look at her, I just prepared myself for an outburst. It never came and we slept together last night.

IMO now is not the time to be "educating" your WW like that. She's likely going to rebel and cause even more LB'ing. And IMO POJA can only work if you both agree to recover the M.

I suggest instead approaching this from a "personal boundaries" point of view.

Why do you think she changed beds suddenly last night? I can think of two opposite reasons why this might have been, but I'm curious about your thoughts.

I don't know what you mean by "personal boundaries" can you expand that for me?

The purpose of the note was to help us talk. When she was going off on me, she constantly talked over me. I suggested that we set up some ground rules for talking. She agreed. Dr. Harley uses the techniques I gave her as a way to begin marital recovery. Boy, I thought it was a good opportunity to plug some "love bank holes".



Thanks.

While it is good to set up rules for communicating with each other, I doubt your WW is interested in marital recovery right now, and any attempts to teach her marriage saving techniques will probably be met with much resistance.

Personal boundaries refers to things like, I will not tolerate you talking to OM in the house, I will not be kicked out of my own house, bed, etc., because of your affair.

Personally, I think she did it to challenge me. I think she wanted a fight, but I think at the end of the day. She was too emotionally exhausted to take me on. I expected her to tell me, 'sleep in the attic', in an attempt to humilate me.

I was certainly ready for her to take me on. My plan was to carefully say 'no', but remind her of our agreement to talk (see above). I thought we could end up at an agreement that allowed me to sleep either there or somewhere else, but in a way that didn't allow her to humiliate me. But, the fight didn't happen.

When my 15 year came in and asked, 'what's going on' referring to us both sleeping in the same bed, it seemed like my wife started to fume after that, but she didn't pick a fight and just went back to sleep.

There is some evidence that my wife is crashing a bit. I'm looking for evidence that the affair is ending. It's under a lot of pressure. When I asked my wife to not see or contact the OM the other night, she said, 'in 14 days it won't matter'. I asked what that meant but refused to tell me saying it wasn't any of my business.

I'll find out Friday night or this weekend. I'll have to get ready again.

What were your two opposite reasons, Owl?

Does anyone think this might be a good time to write her an email note telling her I want to meet her emotional needs, etc.?

We've had a brutal few days.

Hey Mr.W,

Just wanted to let you know I used your advice above when my wife went nuts. I told her I just laid out the facts to my attorney.

Wife is going to get hit with more from my attorney today and tomorrow.

HWW

Jmwc95, yep I see. I am most definitely and carefully (w/o love busters) setting boundaries. The bed is a definite boundary. I haven't conquered the taking the clothes up to the attic yet. I'm tired of organizing and folding clothes.

HWW,

I would not write her an email about meeting needs... that's quite a ways away. That's part of marital recovery, and in her mind, she is still getting a divorce. Just keep living your life, taking care of your kids and keeping boundaries in place.

I think sleeping in bed with you could mean one of two things: the reason you suspect or because underneith her insane, alien exterior she respects you taking charge. She sees you're not fooling, and taking care of yourself and your kids. It's bursting her fantasy bubble.

What's going on with the attorney tomorrow?

KM

also...

do you think your W will try and sleep in the same bed with you tonite? If she tries again, maybe you need to think about setting a boundary. "I really miss sleeping in the same bed as you, and I enjoyed last night. However, maybe it's confusing for the kids and we don't want to make this more painful than it already is." Just a thought.

KatieMae, How are you doing? Thanks for the post.

As for the note, ok. I'm going to hold off on the note. I did call her tonight and make small talk a bit.

As for the sleeping together. Your comment is interesting about respecting me. I didn't think about that. Probably, respecting me IS what prevented her from taking me on. The night before she took me on and I kept coming back for more and more without love busters. I just talked (when she gave me the chance), otherwise she just ranted and raved. At the end of that, she was exhausted emotionally and I was still wanting to talk more, setting boundaries, and not letting her run over me. Hmmmm.

As for the attorney, the wife will get my Answer to the complaint, which will really throw her because it comes at her hard.

Then we are asking for an interrogatory (under oath), to get at all the financial issues. And, we're asking for mediation at which she will be asked to move out; Plan B.

I moved my clothes down from the attic. I think next time, I'm going to take some of her clothes up there and tell her I'm looking forward to US moving up to the attic together.

I did tell her the other night, that I still want to work on our marriage, but there should be no further contact or communication with the OM. I really don't know what happens in 14 days. I asked my attoney if she knew what that might mean. I asked because the firm represents the OMW! My attorney didn't know.

Best regards, and thanks.

HWW

Not tonight. She's out of town. She'll be back tomorrow. We'll see.

What are you thinking in terms of the boundary? What am I accomplishing with this boundary?

Quote: What are you thinking in terms of the boundary? What am I accomplishing with this boundary?

I'm thinking, if she wants to sleep in the bed with you, you need to have a commitment from her that she is working on the M and will no longer have contact with OM. If she can't do that, she sleeps elsewhere. Otherwise, it's too confusing for the kids, and you both need to think about their mental and emotional well-being.

Only inform her of this boundary if she tries sleeping with you again. Let her know it's out of love for the kids, and respect to the M, which you most definitely want to work on.

I have no idea what the 14 days could be... I wonder if she and the OM have plans. It's a little scary to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


KM

14 days put you right up against the end of the Month of June.

It COULD mean:

She's moving out all on her own (without you forcing her).

Maybe into some place OM and her are going to share.

Could be what some of that recent money movement was allocated for.

IF she goes...try not to enable her by allowing her to take anything but her clothes and very personal items.

You've got the restraing order and the court will decide how to divide up the rest.

Remember...don't JUST rely on a restraining order. MANY spouses upon moving out do it on the sly and take as much as they can fit on the truck. They do it secretly when they know you will be out of the house. Possession is still 9/10's of the law. Sure it's a violation of the restraining order but once it's gone...it ain't coming back.

Your snooping should be in high gear.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Good decision to back off on the educating of the wayward spouse. She's an addict...until the affair is OVER she'll only listen for as long as it serves her addiction. Her recent attention and giving you an audience is likely just a delay, deny and appeasement tactic. Snoop to discover the real game behind the scenes. There's always a scheme.

Hmmmmm. I really don't think she's moving out. I really don't. If she did move out, then she knows she will not get primary custody of the kids. She never moved any money out of our joint accounts. She moved money to cover the check she wrote to her attorney.

The recent restraining order really shocked her. She was pretty shaken. I think it had good unintended consequences. She knows now that the divorce process is not going to go her way. She doesn't have the control she thought she had and her fantasy is crumbling.

I really think it's the OM who is moving; hopefully out of town and far away.

It is a little spooky. But, my take is the OM is moving and moving out of town. I'm trying to find out. If he does move, then my wife should start to show signs of withdrawl, right?

I was wondering whether I was starting to see some signs of depression two nights ago.

HWW

Not if she keeps in contact with him. Also, in her wayward state of mind, she might try and find OM#2.

Jim,

Not very optimistic:


You are right about continued contact and possibly finding another man. I'm not sure what else I can do.

Dr. Harley has this to say:


I found this discussion helpful. It's under 'Basic Needs - Three States of Mind in Marriage'. At the very least, it helps me to stay cool when my wife is really going after me.

I know you all don't think I should be educating my wife, but the POJA is an important tool during this process.

From the way you describe the 14 days comment. OM moving MAY, in fact, be the case. He supposedly ended the affair. He left his job and filed for divorce. Your wife filed the same day to try to add karma and destiny to the mix and her efforts are/have failed to get OM to reconsider. He is moving on.

This also explains her audience with you. Her apprehension and upset about the divorce situation. Her despair. It's not your reactions to her filing. It's not what your attorney did or didn't do. It's her addiction fantasy not coming to fruition.

Something to consider, to find out what is going on and to try and nip the continued contact with OM scenario in the bud is to have a frank discussion with OM. Don't rush off and do it until it's been hashed out but perhaps HE can be convinced to go to NO CONTACT himself. A kind of "if you care about WW at all and are truly moving on...then NC is the only way that her and I can ever look to rebuild our marriage". Appeal to his honor (which although you know is lacking, MAY move him to do the right thing. He MAY just do it as men that are breaking up with a woman love a convenient excuse not to have to deal with the fallout of a broken hearted woman.

Just an idea to ponder.

MR. W

Mr.W.,

Really, really interesting thought: talking to the OM. I suppose I should wait and see what the 14 days is all about, right?

Until then, I suppose I should just enjoy the day; let her reach out to talk, if she wants. Not make to many 'sweet gestures'.

Did you see my above post on the States of Mind? I'm wondering if this conflict is a good thing; as long as I can hold it together without going off on her? What did you think about that?

hww, I asked Steve about POJA once while my W was really "in the fog" and he said that one person can do their half of POJA even if the other isn't onboard. I think that would be better than 'educating' her; just try to lead by example. I think you are handling yourself extremely well.

Mr.W,

On the other hand, Dr. Harley also makes the above the quote. This particular quote fits my situation and has haunted me since the first time I read it.

It's a tough, tough situation. The kids will be the tiping point for me; that's my hope at the moment.

normalguy,

Thanks. I really appreciate the insight. I'll keep trying to POJA her; and thank you for the compliment. The support here is great.

normalguy, tell me your story? I see you've recently been dealing with a wayward wife in an EA. Looks like it took you some time to establish no contact. That must have been very grueling like what I'm experiencing.


HWW

I don't have much time but I can give you the shorthand version:
Marriage began terrific. Over time it remained great for me but after many years passed I un-knowingly begain neglecting my wifes ENs (reading HNHN was very eye-opening for me!) About 10 years into our marriage W was really feeling trapped. Had one D-Day when I caught her texting another man. Seemingly dropped him immediately and I began trying hard to repair the marriage but we didn't get counselling and she was still not really onboard. She maintained a secret email account. About 6mo later on a trip to her parents she met someone in a bar and started another EA with him. Caught this after another 6mo passed and we went to counselling with MB and it seemed to really help. We started to reconnect, spent tons of time with each other met ENs like crazy, went on a dream vacation and had a great time but still, W was not "right". Turns out our neighbor had a work schedule that had him home during weekdays and he and my wife were developing a friendship. Well you guessed it, it developed into an EA and then a PA.

For me, each D-Day resulted in immediate dropping of OM but not really a restoration of the marriage. Right now I am doing everything according to MB principals to rebuild the marriage again but I fully realize that it takes both of us to do that.

Mr W. tried to help me way back too and I didn't always follow his advice; for example it took me a while to actually decide to snoop. He was right on; listen to him.

I think you are doing fantastic though. You cannot control the outcome, you cannot educate them, you cannot keep them from doing what they're going to do. You can't even really snoop enough to prevent an A from happening but once it happens you can find out. But, following the principals and treating yourself with respect and dignity is what will carry you through this. In fact I think it is what will win her back to you more than "trying to be nice". I worked *HARD* at being nice but I did not do a very good job of standing up for myself until the last D-Day. Never again will I let myself be treated that way even if it means I have to be divorced.

One book that helped me a lot was "Love must be Tough".

By the way, since D-Day which actually was over 7 months ago now, there has been NC, my wife has been treating me extremely well, she has improved her own life a lot by doing things such as getting a new job and completing her college degree, we have moved to a new house, the kids behavior and attitudes have greatly improved (even getting straight As now). W tells me often that she is going to take care of us, that she is going to protect me, etc.

We are still in recovery and still have very tough days. But at least we're in recovery now.

I think you are doing the absolute best you can in a terrible situation that is not your fault hww. Thats all any of us can do. Be proud of yourself.

normalguy,

Wow, you must be a strong person. I am impressed with how long you have been working on your marriage. Boy, it's scary to think of the endurance one might have to muster to get through these times.

HWW

It can be scary, but take one day at a time!!! Trying to handle the thoughts of EVERYTHING that must be done, will wear you down....One day at a time....then you get stronger, build more self-value, then you can start thinking in longer periods of time....etc....
God Bless
MWIL

KatieMae,

Wife did sleep in the same bed with me again. I brought up the situation with her this morning. I said, 'it is confusing for the children for us to be sleeping together. I don't think we should be sleeping in the same bed.'

She asked me to go to another bed. I said 'no', that since she was seeking divorce, then she should go to another bed. We POJA for a bit and decided that we were at an impasse. So, I guess we're going to keep sleeping together for the time being.

Also, we POJA on who does the laundry. She complained that I was not doing the laundry right. I asked her to teach me. She said it was annoying. I said I was doing it because I wanted to relieve some of the burden she faced on the weekend. We brainstormed a bit and decided I would continue to wash the 'easy' stuff and she would wash the rest. She thanked me. I thought that went well.

Earlier I asked, 'do you want to work on cleaning the porch together'. She said, 'not with you, but I'll do it myself.' I didn't say anything, but later she commented that I had this puppy dog look. Then she commented about how I had previously told her I didn't want to see or speak to her again. I was referring to post-divorce (I'm also thinking Plan B without telling her), but she's manipulated it to me now. I haven't handled this boundary / declaration well. I thought this did not go well. I really need to not give any 'puppy dog' hints or looks. Any advice?

HWW,

A boundary is a personal stance that is self-protecting and non-negotiable. I'm not sure it was a good idea to POJAing sleeping in the same bed. What message does that send your children? You need to set a boundary... "you wanted a divorce, and this is not emotionally healthy for the children. If we are working on the marriage, then we can sleep in the same bed. But since we are not, you will have to find somewhere else to sleep. I'm sorry, please think of the kids." Can you reconsider talking to her about this?

As far as the porch thing goes, this is just WW manipulative fog talk. Don't worry about it. You don't have to worry about the "no talk" boundary until you are actually divorced and she is out of the house. For now, ignore these manipulations used to suck you into an alien discussion... they will just make you crazy.

I think that eventhough you had a puppy dog face, it's okay. Next time you ask her to join you with something, expect that she will say no so you are not disappointed. Or don't invite her to help you at all. I know this is very hard, but try only to think of yourself at this point. Focusing on you, the kids and the house without her will actually make you seem more appealing to her.

Oh, and the laundry thing is typical fog talk: "you don't do anything around the house because I've never told you how important it is to me, and now that you're doing it, you can't even get it right." I'm glad you were able to work out a compromise, however, and it's something you both feel good about.

What are your plans for the rest of the afternoon today? Maybe you should take your kids out for ice cream. Ask them first, and if they say yes, ask your W. "the kids and I are going out for ice cream... wanna come?" She probably won't, so don't be disappointed. Be happy, keep it light, and have a good time with your children.

KM

KM,

I can reconsider. I can also sleep in the bed she was sleeping in, but then she gets her way. Every time I give into her, she loses respect for me and things get worse. I've talked to the kids about why mommy is sleeping wih daddy. The kids seemed 'ok' with the explanation, which was as follow:

'Mommy's back is hurting her, so she's sleeping in the good bed. Daddy hasn't moved, because there isn't a good place to move to; mommy uses the small guest room to change, and mommy would wake daddy up in the mornings and daddy isn't going to sleep in the attic guest room because mommy has made it the 'cave'.'

Did a little light shine through tonight? I was caught a little off guard, and I wasn't real prepared with a good talking point. Finally, my wife has started talking to some of our mutual married girl friends, which is so good. It's another indication of how the OM is not talking to her much anymore. I've been telling my friends that it's important to shine light on the affair and if I have any hope convince my wife to never see or talk to the OM again.

Then tonight my wife asked about my mother. We talked a bit about how things were with my parents. She mentioned how she wished she could stop by, but commented how my family absolutely hated her now. I was a little surprised and unprepared, but I said to her, 'sure they are angry, but they still love you. That's how families work. Besides, the only thing that matters at the end of the day is me.'

I don't know. It seemed like a moment when the fog was a little less dense and some new thoughts had begun to creep into her head. What do I do we these kinds of comments? When she seems to be thinking of other options for the first time? What's the best way to respond?

HWW

P.s. We were at a neighbor's party, and I thought I was looking particularly good tonight. Caught my wife looking at me a couple of times.

KatieMae,

Regarding personal boundary and the master bedroom; the wife slept in the other room. I didn't have to bring up the topic again.

I just received a new filing from my attorney addressed to my wife. It's called an interrogatory. It is essentially a subpoena / deposition rolled up in one document. It requests lots of information and asks lots of questions. Since it is filed with the court, failure to answer the questions truthfully is perjury.

The most interesting questions come at the end and are questions regarding the affair and or affairs. The wife will feel even more pressure when she reads this document.

KatieMae, What do I do when my wife says something reasonably rational? As if the fog lifted just a bit. What do I do, like yesterday, when my wife asks me questions related to how working out the marriage might work? Her question yesterday expressed her concern regarding how she thought everyone on my side of the family hated her.

HWW,

How would you like the M to work? If you have a plan, tell her. She should know what you want, plain and simple. I would suggest:

She write a no contact letter to OM with your approval before she mails it.

Marriage counseling, and if you could do it with the Harley's that would be fabulous. Just make sure and get a PRO M counselor. My H and I's first MC was pro-divorce, our second one was pro-M. She was wonderful... she saved us.

She must do what you ask to make you feel safe, whatever that is. Mabye you need her to surrender her cell phone or whatever. Have you done much snooping? Snooping is KEY to recovery. Even after I had promised my H I would stop talking to OM (and I really, really meant it) something would happen, I would lose control, and talk to him. This happened twice, and H found out because he discovered it. If he hadn't... and hadn't made me accountable for it... we never would have recovered.

What did you tell your W regarding your family? Let her know that if she really wants to work on the M, and your family sees that she is seeking forgiveness, they will eventually come around. It's amazing... I worried about the same thing. What will other people think of me? Never mind the person whose heart I just ripped out, what about my sister-in-law? Sick, sick, sick.

So... do you have a plan for marital recovery? What did you tell your W when she asked you?

HWW,

Assuming the A is over, right now is critical for you. I would plan A my butt off. Usually the WW will not go through with the divorce if the A is over. Now you need to be her lighthouse and guide her way back home. Make yourself a safe place for her to crash. Don't start any discussion about boundaries, but just enforce them if she does cross them. If she wants to sleep in your bed, as long is she isn't actively having an affair, I would let her. Show her that you won't hold this A over her head forever if she decides to work on the marriage. Make yourself as appealing as possible. When she complains or gets upset about something pertaining to the divorce, just tell her that you lawyer handles that, it is out of your hands, and you aren't discussing it. If you continue to plan A, she has NC with OM, and she gets through withdrawal, I doubt she'll go through with the divorce. It already sounds like she is having second thoughts, but right now she thinks there is no going back after what she has done. Let her know (in subtle ways with kindness, not by talking to her about it) that isn't the case.

One the other hand, continue to snoop, and if there is contact with the OM, enforce your boundaries and proceed to plan B.

Well everyone - - caught my wife talking to the OM on the cell phone. The affair is still on. You know, if it wasn't for MB, I would have absolutely lost it. But, in the back of my mind I really knew I was being fed fog babble. Maybe there was a very brief moment of reality because she hadn't or couldn't talk to the OM for a while, but it was at best short lived and at worst a diversion.

Today, I was even starting to feel sorry for her. Can you believe it? Again, if it wasn't for MB, I would have let my guard down. I now know that when the affair is really, really over, I'll know and it will be plain as day. Thank goodness for MB and I need to keep the pressure up.

I talked to the wife a bit and found out that the OM is still working at the company and the 14 day comment was regarding his last day. The wife even made it sound like he might actually be able to stay on a bit more.

Upon finding her talking to the OM, I figured there wasn't much use trying to educate her on anything except, 'don't try to tell me the OM doesn't matter in this divorce'; and finally, 'I want to meet your emotional needs. If you want to work on the marriage, then I'm prepared to learn what your needs are and work on meeting them.'

Man, I have got to be careful.

KM,
Thank you for the post, but I guess it's moot for now. I'll tuck it away for later.

I did speak to her about the family. I said the family still loves her although they are angry now. But, that's what families do, they get angry at each other from time to time, forgive and never loose love for one another.

HWW

Jim,

There was contact last night. So, back to Plan A and working on Plan B.

I'll keep my weight down, make myself appealing, remind her that I'm ready to meet her needs, but she must go NC with OM.

I've been thinking about what to say to the wife (should she start to explore marriage restoration) so she doesn't feel like the affair will be used against her (held over her head), but I haven't come up with any really good talking points. Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks for the post.

Marital resoration for the wayward wife usually doesn't seem impossible because they fear the BH will hold the infidelity over their head forever, in my estimation, wayward wives just see marital resoration as an impossibility on an emotional level. They just don't see how they could ever be "in love" with you again. They've spent months/years rationalizing and justifying their adulterous actions to the point where they are convinced they just don't "feel" anything for their BH anymore. They can't conceive of getting that back.

Not to fear. At first they nearly ALL feel that way. They will complain about being "stuck" or whatever. But that's OK...because, in my estimation, the BH deep down "feels" the same way. The BH has just been betrayed and their "love bank" really isn't quite as full as they think. You BOTH really are at the same starting point...a loveless marriage.

Thus...when they complain that they just can't conceive of ever being in love with you again...AGREE WITH THEM ADDING "Don't you think I fear feeling the same way afterall, I just found out recently my wife has been cheating on me for YEARS"), but continue on by saying..."I'd at least like to try and determine if that is the final answer...as I, too, do not wish to (or absolutely won't) stay in a loveless marriage...forever".

A talking point is..."wouldn't the best case scenario for YOU, ME and the KIDS be that we recover and attempt to restore, maintain and exhibit a loving marriage". It can be done...MOST marriages survive infidelity and actually recover and find themselve in a better marriage than existed pre-infidelity....I think WE are worth it and our children deserve we at least try.

"Honey...you ARE NOT trapped. IF you go to complete NO CONTACT and we both give an honest effort to reconcile and find that it is impossible, then, after say 1 year I will gladly and cooperatively end this marriage with you. I am only seeking a commitment to TRY. I am willing to TRY as well"

Mr. Wondering

Mr.W.

Thank you.

When I caught my wife talking to the OM last night, my wife and I got into a familiar discussion again. My wife has begun to change her story regarding the OM. He is just "her friend" and the reason for the divorce is that she has never loved me and tried the last year to make it work; however, I wasn't included in that attempt to restore the marriage.

So, last night in that conversation, my wife mentioned talking to a mutual female married friend of ours. She went on to say, 'how the friend confirmed her unhappiness as far back as one year ago'. The friend further confirmed her foggy mind that we are not meant to be married.

Well, I went to go see the friend and I went through things from my perspective with her. One positive note to all this is that my wife is beginning to talk to other people besides the OM. Up until a week ago, he was the only person she talked to.

HWW

Well, she is probably trying to build her circle of "enabling" friends....this is a typical pattern....she's looking for support for her A. If she has friends that are weak morally, then rest assured, they will side with your WW.

MywifeIlove,

Yes, she already has one enabling friend and there's nothing I can do about her (she's recently divorced for the 2nd time). But, the friend I went and talked to was important for me to conact because she's a married friend. Our network of married friends is large and I think my wife is missing our married friends network. That's good, I want her to miss that, it's part of the conversation need.

HWW

Tuesday: now that my wife left for a business trip, we won't see each other for 10 days. On Thursday, I leave for a trip with my son. My wife returns that same day to leave Saturday for a trip with my two daughters. Both trips are for previously scheduled kid activities.

I'm not going to have contact with my wife for that entire period. I don't know whether that's good or bad.

I have to admit, this morning I was filled with a lot of loneliness while I talked to my wife as she got herself ready to leave. I had more feelings of loneliness than I've had at anytime during this tragedy. I still love my wife, but I'm becoming extremely lonely. How do you do it? How do you work through your needs not being met?

I was at a party Saturday, my wife was there for a little while and everyone knew what's going on between my wife and me. Talking to some of the women there made me feel very good. I'm really longing for companionship. I know the dangers that are in front of me and I'm sure I can stay faithful, but it's tough.

Don't put yourself in a situation to feel desired or flattered by other women. I know it feels good right now, but it can be dangerous. I know it feels lonely as heck right now. Just think of it as 6-12 months of loneliness so that you'll have a lifetime of happiness.

Mywifeilove,

I like reading your threads. It gives me some hope. I also see a lot of similarities between you and me.

When I got to toward the end of your 3rd thread, I got such a big smile on my face. Wow!!!! Wow!!!! Your thread is inspirational.

HWW

Thanks,

And I was inspired by so many others on this board.

You asked a couple posts ago "how do you do it?" Yes you are longing for companionship, but it feels like you have been rejected....but you need to understand, that it is your WW's rejection of her own pain, that is causing the atrocious attitude toward you.

Look at every situation on these boards.....most of them the WW loves or acts like they love their BS....UNTIL......D-Day.....then the pain of what position they have put themselves, their family, and their future in is too much to bear....thus devaluing of their loved ones, to uprise their own value....IOW...the easy road. The hard road is to own your mistakes, increase your value though moral choices, and honor those commitments......just honor those commitments....because when one jumps out of a commitment.....they then question themselves for a very long time as to how they can commit themselves to anything again. As the betrayed spouse, show them love and affection and the ability of you to forgive...until they move away.....then show them that you will be missed, with your head held high.

I read the title of your post and had to reply. Me and my WW are exactly the same age as you and your WW. We have been married for 26 years. If you think your situation is worse than anyone else here, please come live with my WW for a week. She has not filed for D because that may prevent me from being hurt anymore and she wouldn't like that. Actually, she wants to continue her blatant adultery with married OM and live with me so she can also continue her comfy lifestyle. I talked to my attorney yesterday and will be filing for D unless a miracle occurs and quickly. Her coldness and abusiveness have became so bad that all I can think of is getting away from her. If I had to live with her under these conditions for another 3 months, I would pray for death for relief. Read my posts here in the Plan A/Plan B forum and also on www.survivinginfidelity.com(same username as here) if you want to see just how badly a WW can behave.

journeyer,
I have read your post before. Found a lot of the advice you were given to be helpful.

Terrible stuff to go through, isn't it? For me, it's like dealing with a child. I find that I've been slowly setting aside my strong love for my wife and moving to a different mind set. I still love my wife, but the woman I'm talking to these days is not the same woman I knew last year. My wife throws temper tantrums once in a while, hurling all kinds of non-sense, but I listen; then set boundaries. The boundaries have actually worked well for me. I've been surprised that I was able to get her out of the master bedroom without a massive fight: adulteresses sleep elsewhere in the house. The other goofy thing she's been doing is taking my clothes up to the attic. I think she's agreed to stop. We'll see.

I thought I started to see some reality creep in, but I know she talked to the OM. As soon as she does, the fog rolls in thick.

Sounds to me like your wife will respond to Plan B; but you've got to come to terms with meeting her needs during recovery.

For me, I'm still not optimistic that Plan B is going to work. We'll see, once I get there. My Plan B will be a bit different because of the kids. My wife can't take care of the kids and she hasn't moved out. I have to work with my attorney to get her removed.

HWW

HWW,

I'm not sure just who I am talking to these days either, but it is most definitely not the woman I have loved for 30 yrs. Talking to her is like talking to a 15 yr. old. She spends an inordinate amount of time trying to impress my 17 yr. old daughter and her friends, trying to act like them, talk like them, wear the same clothes they do. Sometimes she will snap out of it and I can talk to her(not about us)like I always did before this happened, but if my daughter walks into the room she immediately reverts to 15 yr. old mode, it would make you sick to witness it.

She throws tantrums also. You should have seen the one she threw after I caught her and OM leaving their 'secret' meeting spot. It was like a scene from the exorcist, I thought her head would start spinning around at any moment.

From reading your posts, I think you have a real shot at reaching your WW now. The fact that you see reality creeping in at times is very encouraging. My WW has no concept of reality at all right now, all she knows about is 'true love' and how she has finally found it. It sounds as if your wife has started to come down a little from the peak of the 'love' addiction and has started to question if those feeling are real. My wife is definitely at the peak of it and is totally unreachable. All I can hope for is that it starts to decline with her and that reality starts to creep back in.

journeyer,

I know exactly what you're talking about. My wife has been talking to my 15 year old. She also wants to be one of the girls. After telling my daughter and her friends about the affair, she even swore to secrecy one of my daughter's friends. After a couple of weeks, the young lady finally confessed to her mother. The mother was not happy and sought out my wife to discuss the inappropriatness of the conversation with 15 year olds!

Last Tuesday, I had a similar 'Excorcist' moment. My wife went nuts, I had never seen her do anything remotely similar with anyone. I think it was a fantasy busting moment for her actually. I had to just take the verbal punishment; she wouldn't let me speak. Finally, I had to get her to agree to 'conversation rules'. I emailed her those rules the next day. They are based on POJA. Here is what I said in my email:



I appreciate the words of encouragement, but I'm not so sure. My wife continues to move full steam ahead with the divorce. The reality I thought I saw was short lived. I may have even imagined it. Certainly, when she spoke to the OM the other evening, the fog returned.

My attorney is doing a good job of making the divorce process very difficult on my wife. I expect another exorcist moment after my wife gets my attorney's latest court filings.

Are you posting to the Plan A / Plan B thread regularly now? If so, then I'll keep an eye on your thread.

HWW

You think she's pissed now, just wait until the court gives you primary custody of the children, the house, and forces her to pay child support and/or alimony. She'll blow her top. This will also cause her to seriously reconsider her position. You have your lawyer push for EVERYTHING.

My wife is still in a thick fog. I'm Plan A'ing her. Plan B is still off a bit because of the kids and legal issues. The wife has not moved out.

What's the best way to communicate with my wife? In the past, I tried to be kind and overly talkative. I thought I was filing an EN; however, it appeared to annoy her more than anything. Recently, I've dramatically reduced my personal communication with her. When I do communicate with her, it's short and to the point.

Am I doing the right thing by reducing my communication with her?

Oh, definitely. We just answered her Divorce Complaint, and that's what I am seeking. I'm also seeking attorney's fees and other unspecified compensation as the court may award.

I don't think my wife is aware of two things: 1. Both I and the OMW have the same law firm and they are the best; and

2. The judge we've been assigned is the best possible judge for BS's. He has a reputation for hating divorce, especially when children are involved.


Let me tell you about the OM. He's a real scum bag (venting here). He's 7 years older than my wife, and a new grandpa. He was my wife's boss, but he's being let go by the company. He's divorcing his 2nd wife with kids (he has one 10 year old now). He divorced his 1st wife when he had 3 small kids. My wife says he blames the whole thing on his wife; however, his wife has been struggling with cancer. Apparantly, the OMW was just diagnosed with some more spots that could be cancerous. So, this guy is leaving his cancerous wife and 10 year old son. Nice guy, huh?

I would still like some advice on the talking to my wife question above. Dr. Hadley talks about the BS sending notes and talking to his wife on the phone during Plan A. How often, how much should be said, what kind of things should be talked about, and who should initiate?

HWW

[color:"blue"] I copied and pasted this from Longhorn's thread titled "For Newly BS spouses" which is pinned to the top of the Just Found Out board. If you have not read it...do so now. It's got a good summary of the actions you are to be taking now in various forms.[/color]

-------------------

NEWBIE UPDATE

Well, today I thought I'd add my "Do's and Don'ts of Plan A List". This list I carried around with me from early into my wife's affair and then well into recovery. I referred to it from time to time to keep myself grounded in how I wanted to behave. A big part of Plan A is being the best person, spouse and parent (if applicable) that you can be despite the circumstances around you. My basic premise that enabled me to survive day to day was "Act, Don't React" (i.e. - "ACT" like the person I wanted to be without any love busters and do not allow myself to simply "React" to the harshness of the reality I foung myself in at the moment). Using this basic premise, I was able to weather the roller coaster of infidelity and eventually restore my marriage.

There are many emotional strains on the wayward spouse but their primary problem/issue is the OP (Other Person). If "No Contact" has not yet been established they will behave with a single minded intention to get their "fix" of the OP. If you threaten their ability to obtain such fix depending on the length of time between fixes, the quality of the recent fix and the security of such fix you will be met with resistance in varying degrees. No doubt about it, your efforts WILL be resisted but how they do it is a crap-shoot. They may yell, threaten or otherwise blatantly attempt to manipulate you with fear, anger, intimidation or whatever OR be more caniving and attempt to appease you with lies, more deceipt and covert manipulation. Either way they are not really LISTENING to you...you are their secondary concern. Understanding that is essential.

Conversly, the things you do that do not interfere with their addiction will be strongly encouraged and reinforced or perhaps simply ignored. Again, it's manipulation. They will be nice to you, have sex with you, spend time with you IF you allow them to continue having their affair...unabated. The policy of appeasement does not work. You can't simply be a doormat no matter how comfortable your wayward MAY attempt to make you feel.

So in the end you are left feeling powerless and beat up. Which in all essence you are. It's THEIR addiction you have little influence over. Only the addict can decide for themselves when to releive themselves of their addiction. They will do so IF YOU behave according to the solid, well tested, professionally advised Marrigage Builders principles. You, of course, must practice both the "CARROT AND THE STICK of Plan A (see link in my signature line below) to attempt to bust up the affair. But much of the STICK does not involve your day to day interactions with your "FOGGED OUT" wayward spouse. My do's and don't list is how you manage your spouse while you do the rest of Plan A.

Some days your spouse will be kind to you and other days hostile. As you ATTEMPT to pull closer to them and reestablish intimacy they will no doubt respond by pulling away for fear of you interrupting their affair OR, if the affair is over, for fear of leading you on. If you pull away from them the Waywards may often pull you closer for fear of losing you, for fear of losing their options as they cake eat/ride the fence of indecision. However, if you pull away to hard you may run a huge risk that you will merely reinforce and legitimize their built up rationalizations and justifications. It's simply the roller coaster of infidelity and the more you recognize it for what it is the more POWER you have to control YOURSELF as you both progress through this mess.

The wayward emotional pull back is to be EXPECTED. Waywards almost always do this. They take a step towards you and you respond appreciatively...you acquire Hope and push for more, more, more. You hunger for HOPE and they fear it. WS's don't feel worthy of it and are holding on to so much of the rationalizations and justifications that they can't see straight YET...even if they HAVE recommitted to the relationship and gone to "NO CONTACT". They fear hurting you further, hurting their family further. They fear you are placing much more significance on each step forward than you should cause they legitimately and quite necessarily DON'T FEEL IT...YET. So they slap you down and retreat. They may even defend/insulate themselves from you by calling you NEEDY AND UNATTRACTIVE to get you to back off. Hence, the step backwards.

When you detach from the rollercoaster and allow him/her to proceed at his/her desired speed you can hopefully minimize the steps back. When YOU internalize and beleive yourself to be the obvious choice, acquire patience and the confidence that he/she would be a fool not to recomitt to you, then you become the confident, unpressing, spouse that swept them off their feet so many years ago. He/she can more easily recommit to the person they saw back at the beginnig of your relationship than they can to the devastated spouse they see before them now.

You are behooved to for the most part just let it go for now, OP's soon to be or IS out of the picture...this is just you and your spouse now. Try to date them (alone time without KIDS is KEY...family time is NOT as effective). Movie dates suck cause you can't talk but those are the kind of dates you want now. Consider loud restaurants, clubs and bars. Activity based dates where you are not seated facing each other forced to have that “serious talk”. But if they won't date you go out yourself and either have fun or feign fun. They will eventually get suspicious or feel the need to take a break themselves and hopefully follow along.

In conclusion, you only control you. The more you understand the dynamics of infidelity the more prepared you will be to anticipate it and combat it. Your spouse, as expected is behaving like an idiot right now and "idiocy" will likely be the forecast for some time. YOU must be the leader of your family and the leader of your marriage and despite the crap you are putting up with BE the best person you can be....simply, ACT, DON'T REACT.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

OK...the list of Do's and Don'ts.

Do's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

*sorry the above is a little choppy...I combined several similiar posts to compile this one.

What do you think is 'too hard'? I've pulled back. She hasn't tried to contact me. I'm thinking I should just wait for now. I'm not going to see her for over a week.

HWW

I spoke to my sister this afternoon. She told me she ran into a mutual married male friend of ours. Before I go into the story, I should say that my two younger sisters have been great support for me; just great. Anyway, my sister and my friend talked about my wayward wife and the things she has recently been trying to tell people about me. The good news is, I'm pretty well known and liked in my town, and most of our friends are solidly behind me. The bad news is, not everyone is my friend.

My sister called me to tell me about some of the things my wife has been recently saying and she started to cry on the phone. I listened and told her everything will be fine, and I asked, 'are you ok'. She was very upset and humble that I was so concerned about her given everything I've been going through.

I simply told her, 'learn from me and go home to your husband and learn each other's needs. If you and your sister can strengthen your own marriages because you see the trauma that I'm going through, then I will truely be happy.'

I really felt wonderful that some good might come from this mess.

HWW,


Did your wife actually read this, and was she willing to discuss it with you? If so, you are fortunate. If I emailed something like that to my wife, she would respond to it with ridicule. I learned early on that there is no way to reason with her, trying to do so only results in frustration.

journeyer,

My wayward wife never specifically responded to the conversation guidelines' email, but our conversations have improved. When we were negotiating something last Sunday, we brainstormed a topic with her participation. Then, I was not enthusiastic about any of the solutions, so we stopped and she seemed to understand.

HWW

I haven't had any communication with or from my wife since Monday, and I'm not going to be able to speak to her again for another week. My withdrawls are severe. I miss my wife.

My wife called my sister and had short superficial chat with her. Why would she do that? It's as though inside my wife's fantasy, my wife is still trying to pull it off. She's still trying to pull together her 'new' family with the OM taking my place.

I almost think I should ask my entire family, all my friends, to not talk to Melissa until she goes NC with the other man. I almost need a family and friends Plan B.

HWW.

My wife called my sister to briefly talk. My sister thinks she's going to call again.

My sister asked me for advice on talking to my WW in keeping with MB. I gave her links to this site, but is there some quick advice I could give her?

I need to go over the importance of NC with my sister.

HWW,

Oh good lord! Unbelieveable. Does your sister have caller ID? If she does, I would have her screen her calls and not answer. She doesn't need to be in the middle of this, and your W needs to understand that she can't have her cake and eat it too. Your sister could also just tell her, "I'm sorry, this is an uncomfortable situation for me and out of respect for HWW I think it would be a good idea for us not to chat for a while."

I'm sorry you are missing your W, HWW. She truly is lost, isn't she? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

KM

Katie,

Yes, very lost, and every time I see her I get to start my withdrawl symptoms all over again. """phew"""

Ok, that's interesting advice on my sister. So, you think my sister should not speak to her much, if at all.

You know, I've previously told my wife that my sister will be the contact between my wife and me post divorce. I told my wife that the only way I will be able to emotionally disconnect from her is to never see or talk to her again post divorce.

So, you wouldn't try to work the NC issue through my sister?

Hmmm... I don't know, HWW. What do others think? The only thing that worries me is that you have depended on your sister for emotional support, and I worry that you will never truly be "free" from the emotional turmoil/withdrawl from you W if you keep getting reports from your sister. If your sister wasn't someone you were close to, I'd reconsider. Does your sister feel like she's in the middle? What does she talk about with your W? And how do YOU feel after hearing that your W has spoken with her?

I would tell your sister to tell your wife that she will no longer talk to her until she stops cheating on you and starts working on her marriage again. At that time, she will be more than welcome back in the family. Then....click.

I love this! I worry too about what WH is going to teach DS3. "be unhappy, it's OK to run".

KatieMae,

Sorry, I was traveling all day yesterday. My younger sister and I are very close. She's great. She's also the individual who will be the contact between myself and my wife during Plan B and D. My sister wants to help. I'm ok with my sister speaking to her. My sister can help me pop the fantasy bubble without LB's from me. I'm sharing the MB philosophy with her. My sister is intelligent. I'm not worried about her saying the wrong things.

My sister is angry at my wife, but tells my wife that she loves her. The recent conversation my sister had with my wife was short and superficial, but she thinks my wife will call her back to talk some more.

Katie, you're correct, I am very attached to my wife. I love hard. I am an addict and my addiction is my wife. Since we are still in the same house together, my withdrawls start up every time I see my wife. I understand what's happening to me now, but with the help of this forum and my family, I'll manage to stick with Plan A.

I'm working with my attorney on Plan B. Because of the children, it's going to be a while. I do not want to loose any rights to primary custody. For me to move out would be detrimental to my custody case. I've even suspended my job search outside the region because of custody.

My wife has a strong conversation need. I have told my sister that my #1 priority is NC with the OM. Until that happens, I can not begin to recover my marriage. My sister understands the concept.

Kiliki, I look for good opportunities to teach my kids lessons everyday. It gives me strength and alows me to endure. I don't know how I would get through this without prayer.

Yesterday, I was in the Seattle airport. A woman and a young boy sat at the gate near my son and me. As I walked back to our seat, I watched the woman hug her son and tears were rolling down her check. I sat down a couple of seats away.

I could tell the woman was suffering. She was sad and scared. Because of what I've been going through, I knew she was a separated mom sending her son off to see his father. Somehow, I knew. So, I gently touched her arm and asked, 'is everthing alright. Is there anything I can do?'

With tears in her eyes she turned to me and told me her story. Her divorce was going to be final July 6 and she was saying goodbye to her son for two months. She was in such a rush and so distraught that she didn't bring enough money to get out of the parking lot. So, she was thinking she would have to ask or beg someone for a little extra cash. I handed her a $20 while my son watched.

The woman's suffering lifted a bit and her son came over and talked to my son. She was still very sad, but she talked and talked to me for 30 minutes until we had to board the plane.

My son and I were having a little trouble talking to each other up until that point, but on the plane he snuggled with me. Everyday comes an opportunity and with breathless expectancy, I look forward to each.

I'm definitely thinking about this as an option.

The main goal here is NC with the OM. I'm just not sure.

My week without the wife is over; she's home. As time goes by, Plan A gets harder and harder. With dread, I know I will have to begin withdrawls again. I am now starting month four.

Some of our best friends invited us to a small dinner party. They said, 'we like you both; we want to be neutral; it's difficult to invite one without the other.' Does anyone think that I should go to the dinner party if my wife goes also? How should I handle this?

When do BS stop wearing their wedding rings? My wife stopped wearing hers around D Day.

HWW

bump

When and if you are divorced. You have been courageous to fight for your M to this point. Why not stick it out until the bitter end if that happens.


I would go wherever I wanted when I wanted without worrying about WW's intentions to go or no and I would (even if I had to fake it) have a blast.

I spoke to my attorney today. We're starting to push harder for a separation.

Hang in there HWW. Remember to get a lot of what you are looking for in the LSA as a lot of courts like the status quo when it comes to the final court dates.

I assume that you are going for primary custody if not SOLE custody and child support, exclusive use of family home, no one not married or kin to the children on overnight visits, OM not around children, alimony/spousal support, etc

I'm going to try to get everything I can, but my state is a 'no-fault' state. I've got a very good female attorney on my side.

HWW

You know, at the end of three months, after following a pretty solid Plan A, after enduring hours of humiliating angry outbursts without returning any outburst or judgement (I've only made one consistent demand: NC with the OM), after making large personal changes in myself (as much as I can in three months); you would think I would see at least a little waffle. I have not seen my wife pull back at all whatsoever. I took my wedding ring off yesterday.

Dr. Harley is correct, when you follow his Plan A Plan B, you eventually fall out of love. I can definitely see this happening to me.

First of all, put your ring back on. That is a sign of you giving up. You keep it on until you are no longer married.

That being said, it is time to go to plan B. Plan B is about protecting the love you have left, so you don't hate your WW by the time her affair ends. And trust me, it will end. Then you will have a chance to rebuild your marriage with your WW. The only question is if you will still want to by then. I know you are working toward getting her out of the house and plan B. You've just got a little plan A left. It was times like these that I prayed and asked God to wire me some emergency love units so my bank wouldn't go negative. You've gotten this far, you might as well keep it up until you can get to plan B.

Also, don't think that she hasn't noticed these changes. She's just trying to rationalize that they aren't for real so she can continue to justify her affair. She knows you've changed and it's eating her inside. She just doesn't want you to know that.

Ok.

Starting month four. I CAN'T STAND THIS!!!!

Plan A is sooo hard. My wife is being so nice to me, and my heart is breaking!!!! I know it's all a show to keep me off-balance. I have to be nice. I have to endure without exploding. I have to look like I'm moving on with my life, but I'm not. I'm still in love with my wife. God, it's awful.

I don't know when I'm going to be able to start Plan B. I think my attorney has everything she needs to begin the process to find out if we can remove my wife from the home.

Found this on another thread today:

In my opinion;

1. You are needy. She knows it.
2. She is working you on that basis for whatever it is she wants, likely money.
3. Women don't respect needy men very much.
4. Your kid needs you.

So, get a grip, be in charge of yourself and get on with our life.

Just my opinion.

Yes, kick her out, aka grow a pair. BS fog: I had it bad. I couldn't think I was so mixed up. Talk about scrambled brains. That was me. I had NOT found this place yet. I talked to a guy at the suicide hotline who got me straight.

The points I remember are:

1. Get your head on straight. Forget her, think of you and the kids. What is best for YOU and the kids. She isn't thinking of you, she is thinking of herself.

2. Figure out what YOU want. If it is her, tell her exactly what you want and do not compromise. She either gives you what you want, without exception and without holding back or kick her [censored] out.

3. Life will go on with or without her. But the kids need a healthy dad and a healthy mom. If she isn't going to get her head on straight, that isn't your problem it is her's and the kid's, so at least you can be there for them.

4. She screwed up, not you. You are under no obligation to repair her problem. She is trying to make her problem your problem, don't buy it.

Well, I thought about it for about ten minutes and asked a couple of clarifying questions. I realized that I had hocked my manhood and needed to go to the pawn store and get them back, right now. I hoisted them up and called my wife who was out "Shopping." I said: "Get it home, I have made up my mind what and where I am and what I am going to do."

She did, madder than all get out. That made no difference. I simply said: "Get rid of him or I am gone right now, and I will not come back." I said some other stuff that isn't important to your situation near as I can tell.

She got rid of him immediately. I gave her a set of instructions and boundaries. To this day she follows them without exception. I love her. She says she loves me and acts like it.

It doesn't always work. It did for me. Your mileage may vary. But your life will be screwed up as Hogan's goat until you take charge of it. So will your kid's."

I like this above. I don't intend to love bust, but I intend to force my wife out. I definitely continue to tell her what she needs to do: NC with the OM.

What steps do you have in place when she crosses your boundaries and DOES contact OM?

I previously set a boundary that she may not speak to the OM in the house or in the presence of the children. I have not caught her breaking that boundary. I have also set a boundary for not speaking or seeing the OM, but she breaks that boundary.

The last time I caught her (Father's Day evening) she was at the park just down the street on her cell phone. When she saw me, she hung up the phone. I confronted her and she admitted to speaking to him (he was having a bad day).

I told her to stop speaking to the other man and she must stop seeing the other man. I also told her that I was ready to meet her emotional needs. The emotional needs that she is getting from the other man.

She tried to tell me that she's 'just friends' with the other man, but I pointed out that the things she had said to me about the other man in the past make being 'just friends' impossible.

I say, 'when you tell me he knows you better than anyone; he is your soul mate; you're more in love now then ever before . . well, there's no way you can just be friends.'

OK...so the real question was...

What are the CONSEQUENCES for her violating that boundary? How are you making crossing that boundary a painful thing?

Good examples would be to 're-expose' every time she contacts OM. Let her family and friends know when she breaks her agreemant with you...so that they can again put pressure on her to stop. If it continues after that a couple of times, what next? Tell her that you won't fund her using her cell phone to call him? And then cancel her cell phone? Eventually leading up to telling her that if she contacts him again, she needs to move out, because if she continues she's going to destroy any love for her that you have left.

Get the idea? A boundary is only effective if its ENFORCED. You enforce it by having unpleasant consquences for violating it.

Wow, another terrible night.

It began with my wife talking on the phone to someone. When I asked who, she wouldn't tell me. I asked if it was the OM and she became furious. She called me names and refused to talk to me. I told her name calling was inappropriate and then it got worse.

More love busters, but I've got to maintain the boundaries. She also slipped in a new name, a name I hadn't heard before, so now I have to determine if my wife is a serial cheater.

Yep, it's bad, very, very bad.

Last night, I addressed a lot of new topics. I probably tried to over educate my wife, but I'm tired of her behavior.

I suggested an experiment where she and I would spend a lot of time together for the next six months, but she must break all contact with the other man. She said 'no'.

I suggested we do the above for the sake of the children because divorce will be very detrimental for the children. She said it won't be bad unless I make it bad on them. I told her she needs to seek out medical and psychological advice from doctors on divorce and it's affects on children. I told her look at the affect your own childhood had on you with your biological father abandoning you and your poor relationship with your step father. She said, your right, I hated HATED my step father. He lived off my mother just like you're living off of me.

I tried to change the subject to something softer to get away from love busting, but she continued to fume. I asked why she was so angry. She said it was because of all the resentments she had toward me. I said to her, you have to learn to release these resentments. She said she could not. I told she should talk to a psychiatrist, because this was very unhealthy.

I kept coming back to NC with the OM and she said he didn't matter, this was all about me and how I need help internalizing it and reflecting on how horrible a person I am and how I won't deal with the fact that she can't stand me any more and wants out of the marriage. She accused me of going in circles back to the OM and he didn't matter; that's when she mentioned the new man's name.

My wife is so disturbed, it's scary.

And there you have it.....I think I mentioned somewhere way back on your thread about a lack of respect.

Your WW wants you to be Mr. Super Corporate America, six figure income, business suit/tie, large grand ambitions, etc not a home maker husband. I don't care whether she agreed to it or not or that it is necessary or not or whether it's best for the kids or not or whether she would be willing to do it or not...she just does not respect your role in the relationship.

I would protect myself and children from this toxic WW (not your wife, but the current wayward version). She might also be helped if she could talk to a MC or IC.

I would nuspect the other name she's thrown out there is merely a distraction. To throw you off track or to further destroy any hope you may have. She wants out and she wants you to let her out easily with money and the kids. They ALL want the same thing but what she wants, in this wayward state of mind is irrelevant to how YOU act and behave towards her in YOUR plan.

ACT, Don't React.

She can question your value as a stay at home father but it should have NO EFFECT on you unless you buy into it. Only YOU can put yourself down. I know it's hard to remain confident and secure about yourself in this ugly times but if you just imagine WW as a crackhead saying these things it may be easier. Everything she is saying is the exact same things a crackhead that didn't want to quit would say to there interferring spouse.

Stick to your plan for your set period of time. Protect your backside legally and financially and hope that the affair ends and you get the chance soon to rebuild your marriage. If not, YOU, individual are taking the first steps towards personal recovery. The first step being...doing everything within your power to fight the good fight for you and the kids so that IF it does end, YOU will move on with integrity knowing such.

Mr. Wondering

When she says that its NOT about OM...

Tell her that you've read from one of the leading marriage counselor's in the nation, someone who's helped THOUSANDS of marriages recover from infidelity, and you know that this simply isn't true.

Tell her not only that you read that, but that you also read there that this claim that its "not about OM" is a very common response from someone who's involved in an affair.

Tell her that there's a whole pattern that these things follow, that there's nothing unique or new about her situation, or yours. And that you KNOW that this situation is recoverable.

Redo your challenge. Tell her that if its NOT about OM, that your challenge should be nothing to her then. She should be able to EASILY do this. And that then she can walk away knowing she's done her part to try to save the marriage. That its her chance to prove to you and to herself that its not about OM, and that the two of you did everything you could to save the marriage.

Thank you everyone I really appreciate the inspiration. I can't tell you how much this helps.


hopeandpray, man I have been trying to get her to talk to someone. The good news is she's talking to someone other than the OM. The bad news is she's talking to a two time divorcee and I can only assume she's getting confirmation.


MrWondering, thanks that helps me hear that and keep up my Plan A. Thanks. Wow, this is tough.


Owl, you don't think I would be going to far with this? I've been careful not to talk to much about Surviving An Affair. I have asked her to read HNHN twice. She's ignored my request and I leave the book out for her in the TV room.

HWW

MrW, last night I started to plant seeds with my wife that the feelings she is experiencing are false.

I described the environment at work she was in and how she and the OM were able to sit in an office and complain about each other's spouses. I told her that her feelings were a natural outcome of these discussions but they were set in a protective bubble, outside the reality of everyday life. I told her I can not compete with the OM in that environment because he can do no wrong. That's when I proposed the six month experiment I talked about in the above post.

Did I go too far? When I'm directly challenged by her, I don't like being pushed around. So, I'm telling her (calmly) what I think she needs to do and why.

Ordinarily I would say that 'educating' a WS is a waste of time.

But I also believe that in my case, my wife DID respond somewhat to that education. She hated it, but she also could only deny it so far. And hearing it from me, AND from both of our MC's (we had one that my wife detested, so we started going to my IC for MC counseling instead) just drove it home to her.

It's up to you. I love the challenge approach, and have had a couple of posters here who have had great success with it. Sysyphus was one in particular.

Its up to you to decide how much is too much. You know that the reason she's avoiding those books is because she doesn't want to face the truth...that HER AFFAIR is the biggest flaw in your situation right now.

All attempts to "teach" a WS inevitably lead to

WS STATEMENT: "REGARDLESS OF ______, I CAN'T NOT DO THIS".

Doesn't mean you shouldn't plant seeds. Just work on HOW you plant seeds. I say pretend you are Frasier Crane and just LISTEN. Ask questions. Poignant questions at times. Try to lead HER to state and figure out what SHE needs to do instead of telling her "what I think she needs to do and why" [quoted from above].

It's called Charging Nuetral. Since no real decision is likley to be made by the WS that day or that conversation you don't have to invest in any answer or comment. There will NOT be an AHA/lightbulb moment. Just stick to the Do's and Don't list I've posted before. Keep meeting needs. The longer she talks to YOU, the less time OM gets and the more "concerned" OM gets. OM's biggest threat to stealing your WW is YOU. He knows it...though he will feign uber-confidence (unless it behooves him to act insecure). OM's are worms. Deny him access without seemingly doing so. Affairs thrive with Time and privacy. They get neither as much as you can control it.

Carry on.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - double negatives ARE intentional <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Owl,

Thanks. Yea, I think she listens to what I say even though she spews awful ugly insults when I say them. So, I think I will continue to cafefully, selectively 'educate' her.

It's very plain that my wife's affair continues. It may not be physical, but they are finding ways to talk. I'm exposing the affair as much and as often as I can.

I spoke to the OMW tonight. I learned a great deal. I also suggested to the OMW that she read Surviving An Affair and HNHN and look at this web site. I'm going to talk to her further.

I knew almost everything that the OMW knew, but she confirmed certain dates and also confirmed that the affair was as intense as I thought. I learned about the physical side a bit more. I also learned that the OM is living on his own in a house that's run down and dirty. I also learned that the OM has been fired and his last day was Friday.

I spoke to my attorney about starting the process to force my wife out of the house. Now, I need to know how to use the information I get from the OMW. I need advice please, and I will be sensitive to her and her family.

HWW

So, the wife stayed out late. The OMW told me about the OM's house he's in. The OMW has told me about seeing my wife's car at his house. I almost went over there tonight, but my sister talked me out of it. She told me to go home, buy your son some ice cream and watch a movie with him.

One thing I found out about the OM from his wife is that he's a serial cheater. I mean he cheated on his first wife, more than once, and his second wife thinks he cheated on her more than once. My wife picked a good one!

Mr. Wondering, I'm having a very difficult time talking to my wife without love busters. She is full of resentment and hatred because I've been doing a terrific job uncovering the affair and keeping intense pressure on the affair. Meeting my wife's needs is difficult.

Also, I have to admit that I've been asking her to move out. It's so uncomfortable with her around.

HWW

I spoke to the OMW again today. I think pressure is really going to mount on my WW. I'm sure I'm going to have some questions as things change.

HWW.

The wife called. I'm amazed; despite all the evidence, despite all the things she's said about the OM being her 'soul mate', she still denies she's in an affair; just amazing.

A WW is truely a fogged out beast.

I caught my wife making plans to travel with the OM. I confronted her with my evidence. Last night she went balistic, today she's trying a different approach; being nice. I said 'thank you for the explanation', but when she wouldn't quit on the 'we're just friends' I said, 'come on, I may speak slow, but I'm not stupid. I'm being feed a lot of information and I know better.' She hung up on me.

HWW

REVIEW . . .


What does give up mean? Because, my feelings for my wife have definitely changed. Part of me understands that I'm in a better place because of my change in feelings for my wife, but part of me is telling me I'm giving up on her.

When does my emotional detachment turn into giving up?

When you agree to an "amicable" divorce and give in to HER will. Keep fighting for your family to the bitter end. Don't think your situation is hopeless.

I'm having a tough time seeing anything but a hopeless situation. The OM is now living in a house just a few miles away. My wife goes over there.

I've carefully started talking to my youngest child (DD)about the possibility of moving; I don't see the OM moving. Boy, was that difficult and my DD is so shaken by that possibility.

My wife's spewing of her hatred toward me has really gotten to me. I know it's babble, but it's been so severe that I'm ready to move on.

Getting her out of the house, on the hook for alimoney and child support, and getting to plan B will do wonders for your sanity.

Thanks Jim, I'm talking to my attorney everyday about getting to Plan B. If I could get some sort of time frame out of my attorney on the issue it would really help, but in my state (MI), it's tough to force a spouse out witout good cause.

OK...so are you journaling her verbal abuse of you? If not, get started RIGHT NOW.

Document EVERYTHING.

Talk with you lawyer about what it would take to get an RO against her for her abuse of you. Then get her booted as a result of that restraining order.

Makes sense to me...thoughts?

Owl,

Yes, I have been journaling her outbursts.

HWW

Have you discussed with your lawyer about what affect this has on her parenting abilities? Raised a concern that she's creating an unhealthy/dangerous environment for you and your kids? Talked about getting a restraining order on her for verbal abuse to remove her from the house?

Carry around a digital voice recorder to capture her outbursts. Your situation won't get any better until you can expose her to some major consequences of her actions. You are in the right here, and your actions are only to protect your family. You need to get her out. Chronicle her visits to OM. Make sure your attorney is a bulldog. Ask your attorney to give you a timetable for getting her out.

Another bad bad night. The tsunami of truth has hit my wife again and she was shaking. Unfortunately, my wife keeps blaming me and pulling my DD into the fray. I wasn't even remotely responsible for the tsunami, it was a psychiatrist friend who was defending their own daughter against my wife's inappropriateness. My wife can't talk to adults, so she talks to 15 year olds instead. It's sick.

help_w_wife,

I read your post this morning and it sounded a lot like mine. I feel for you and I can remember those days well. I was devastated but wanted my xw out of the house! She was abusive and I was a wreck.

This happened 2 ½ years ago. We were married 19 years. She gave me the speech out of the blue. No problems to speak of between us expect financial but we were recovering. And I have to say that she was responsible for the financial difficulties and I was responsible for letting her do this to our family. I did not step up as the Husband to protect my family. She ran all over me for years and I let her. I was a wimp! Not anymore!

After pleading, begging, crying (you get the picture), I found out that she was seeing my son’s baseball coach. This guy was 29 and my xw was 40. We are devout Christians and attend church regularly so I had such a difficult time even believing that this was true.

I never caught them but I found cell records, out-of-town-trips and she confessed that her and the guy would probably get together in the future. Her confession to me about the other guy was given to me without me asking. I was crying at the time. I bet I have not cried in 20+ years prior to this.

People would tell me they had seen him coming out of her motel room late at night during baseball tournaments. I heard all sorts of things like this during those 3 or 4 months. I could not validate the affair as I spent a lot of time looking after my kids. All this tormented me to say the least.

This was 1 or 2 months into the ordeal. That was enough for me! I was NEVER angry. I was always calm throughout this whole ordeal. I simply went semi-black on her. I pulled the purse strings from her. I only paid for basics. This caused her to go into attack mode.

Her big argument was that we had grown apart, she was 40 and now it was time to live her life. She said ‘she never loved me’. All the typical crap you read on this forum.

I spent most of my time on the back porch talking to my pastor and family. I tried to stay away from her. I hoped she would leave. She would be gone for three days straight and I would think she had left for good. She always came back to attack me. All her friends (as far as I could tell) were divorcees and I assume she was getting advice like this from them.

One of her friends actually told me ‘You guys have been married for 19 years and the court will make you keep up her standard of living. You need to give her money like you used too even though you may not like her actions.” This friend was a doctor’s wife and there were having major issues too.

My xw abused me verbally for not getting out of our house. She yelled and screamed at me. She even convinced the kids that I should leave. My 6 year old would come up to me and ask me to leave so Mom would be happy again. It was heartbreaking! I had always had a 100% active role as a Father to these kids. Today, my relationship is great with three of them but not my oldest. My oldest is upset that her way of life was changed. She rarely talks to me.

My teenagers stayed away most of the time. My oldest was graduating from high school and she spent a lot of time away. This was a terrible time.

My x would confront me in the hallway by stepping in front of me, smiling, then poking me in the chest. She was attempting to get me to hit her so she could call the police. This occurred at least three times in a month. It was not a one time incident. I felt like I was living in the movie –War Of The Roses. I think that was the name of the show.

I had to call the police on numerous occasions but they could do absolutely NOTHING! One time I called the police because she had chased me into a bathroom and was hitting me. I ran outside and called the Cops. I was in the backyard with my cell phone when they showed up. Apparently, she met them at the front door and escorted them to the back yard. I can only imagine hat she told them. Three of the cops ran up to me with their guns drawn. They told me to drop what I was holding. Can you believe that!

She told me on numerous occasions that she wanted me dead. I immediately changed my beneficiary from her to the my sister on my life insurance policy.

She abused me. I am a big guy (6’3” 250) and a semi-body builder of sorts. I could not convince anyone, even my attorney what was going on.

I hope you can get a restraining order on her! I really do. You need to stay in your home but get her out. This was a dangerous situation that I was in. I could have easily hurt her in my state of min. Thank God I am a meek guy by nature. She is not….aggressive and vocal. I guess opposites do attract.

Please do everything you can to get her out of your home. Document and find someone who can help you!

A note...

I lost 30 or pounds during this.

After 6 months or so I started to walk again then run. I went back to bodybuilding. My ego was in the dumps. I look and feel great today!

Today, I have a wonderfull women by my side and a good relationship with my kids.

LIFE IS SO MUCH BETTER!!!

BobJan,

Man, what a story, with many similarities to mine. Yea, I need to talk to my attorney again and find out what's taking so long. It's nuts!!!

Did you use the MB principals? What ever happened to your wife?

HWW.

Help_w_wife:

Remember this… Your attorney will more than likely not be interested in helping you. From their point of view, they see this daily and have become accustomed to it. It will be difficult to convince them to help. I would say that a RO based on your kids well being and her abuse will be the key for you.

My attorney told me from the start ‘J, she will try to get to you to lose your cool maybe even hit you’. I assured him that this would not happen. He was right all along!

You will need recorded evidence, police reports (call the police if needed) and witnesses it available.

My XW won physical custody of my kids. We share joint custody. She ended up settling down about 6 months later and moved out withy the kids. Before the divorce she lived a few blocks away. I wanted to fight for custody and my Lawyer said that it would be a 50/50 chance of winning. He said that the affair would have no bearing. The only thing the court looks at is ‘Is she a fit parent’. Besides this time in my life she had been a great Mom and wife. I really don’t know what happened to her. She turned into someone that I do not know! It was heart breaking to go through. My Attorney interviewed my kids and all said they wanted to live with their mom. Today, my 14Girl says that she wanted to live with me but her Mom would not let her. My X has a very controlling personality!

It was the hardest thing I have ever gone through. I though about leaving this city and going home to Texas to start over. I can’t tell you the pain I went through. Luckily, I had a good counselor that put me through a ‘crisis’ therapy of sorts. I was that devastated. It almost seems like a fog or distant memory today. There are times during this process that I can’t remember what happened. I stayed in bed for days. It was terrible.


My XW moved 8 hours away. She is still single and angry as hel!. I don’t know why. It is all about the money at this point. We usually communicate using e-mail. She has not restricted my visitation but as definitely thrown a wrench into it whenever she can.

I thank God every day that He has lead me out of this fire into the life I have today. Thinking back on my marriage, I spent almost every waking moment working, taking care of the kids and general home-life. She viewed this as a weakness and took advantage of my meekness.

This will NOT happen again!

I used some of the MB principals without actually knowing them. I made mistakes but i did the following:

1) I let everyone know about the affair.
2) I went black on her during this time.
3) I did as little communication as possible.
4) I fought the divorce up until month 6 or so. I told my lawyer to fight it, postpone it, etc...
5) I kept inviting her to go to counseling.
6) I sent her cards, flowers, etc... This was a no-no!

She was in the affair, left the house with the kids and I was alone until the divorce 1 year later.

I tried to get her to go to counseling. I went 1/week for a year!

After the divorce, she called me crying. She seemed to want to get back with me. It was too late!! it sounds bad but that made me feel a little better.

Today she is ANGRY, ANGRY and ANGRY. And i really don't know why. I believe her guilt is eating away at her! I feel no compasion but maybe I will in the future!

I have to recant a statement I made above after reading it again:

My XW was NOT a great or even good partner/wife.

BobJan,
We do have a lot in common. I love Texas and have felt trapped where I am for years. My wife has also snapped, but my attorney tells me I will get physical custody of the kids because I have been the primary care giver. Also, my wife travels. I think that will shake her. My kids are so manipulated by her it's sickening. I don't know where I am any more with Plan A. The only thing I think about now is, don't DON'T slam her head against the wall!!! The kids need you; they need one adult.

I can also count my wife's friends on one hand. Whereas I have many many friends as well as my extended family in the same town. My wife is definitely isolated and rebuked.

The most bizarre personality trait that I can't figure out is my wife's ability to hate. She really HATES!!! She hates me. She resents her mother. She hates, HATES her dead step father. My wife is full of resentments. She can't move past them. They eat her insides and she hates. I've never seen anyone who can be so full of rage as my wife. And this is a new personality trait.

MB says the hatred is part of the addiction, and maybe that's true. But my wife isn't like anyone that I've found on any thread here at MB. I really see no hope.

Thanks for all the posts. It's hard and I appreciate the encouragement I receive from everyone.

HWW

Hi, I really feel like I've destroyed my Plan A with my efforts to break up the affair. It's been pretty rough on my wife and she blames me for everything. Her resentment grows and she doesn't waffle at all concerning the divorce. I'm worried that I will leave Plan A for Plan B and she will not remember anything except the pain she's been feeling.

HWW

Well, then plan A better. How are you attempting to meet her ENs? Attempt to engage her in light hearted conversation. Don't talk about the affair anymore unless she is overstepping one of your boundaries. You've done a good job putting pressure on the A, but focus more of your energy at trying to make yourself an attractive partner once this affair is over with. I'd be on the phone every day with my lawyer trying to have him move forward with getting custody, child and spousal support, and getting her out of the house. Other than that, I wouldn't worry about using the stick of plan A directly on her. Let your lawyer use the stick. She'll crash when she starts to feel the consequences.

You know, I don't even know what her needs are any more. I would have said conversation was her most important need, but we haven't been able to have a calm conversation in over three months. I've occassionally given her a gift or two. She's responded strongly to the gift giving on a couple of occassions, but on other occassions she's complained that it's very annoying. I'm definitely taking care of the kids and the house. Overriding all these things is my wife's craving for money and things (financial), and I'm just not in a good position to work on that EN right now. After the divorce, and after custody, then I'll start to work on financial needs.

My wife's addiction to the OM is incredibly strong. It's really over the edge. From talking to the OMW, I think the OM may be getting scared of the intensity of my wife's pursuit of him. My wife is crazy!

HWW

I feel like I'm in Plan B, but we live in the same house; too bizarre.

I'm having a good time bonding with all three of my children.

HWW

For the BS's out there, I'm beginning to develop a different picture of my wife. A woman who has for years not been the person I thought she was. It's difficult to express in writing, but it feels like my wife for the last decade has been my worst enemy, and I didn't realize it. I don't know what to do with these new revelations.

For example, my wife has created this horrible impression of me as an abuser and horrible person to her co-workers. She really started doing this after my twins were born some 13 years ago. I haven't been involved in her work (she's kept me shut out of her relationships at work), but recently I've spoken to a number of her co-workers. Man, the picture my wife has painted of me to them for years is incredible. To my wife's co-workers, I'm a horrible human being.

On D-Day, I wanted my wife back in the worst way, but today, I don't think I want her back. Have any of you BS's had these kinds of revelations?

HWW.

Wife was gone beginning June 19, then I left with my son for a father son trip and did not return until June 28. I was looking at the above list and realized that upon returning from my trip I've been following everthing on above list. Before the trip, I was different. Before the trip, I was doing a few of the do-not's above. After my trip I definitely did a 180, and I know my wife's noticed because she's commented on it.

Can someone tell me how the 180 works on the WS?

Yes, but it took divorce for me to see it. She is a confused, manipulative woman and one willing to do whatever it takes to get her way. It is sick how she manipulates those around her and I feel sorry for the poor sap she's fooling now.

I see how I've been manipulated and it saddens me and angers me at the same time. It saddens me because the kids have paid the heaviest price. I'm angry because of what I've been tricked into on so many levels. I was talked into letting her keep everything and giving up primary custody because she said doing so would maximize our chances down the road.

I believed it under the emotional state I was in at the time. I never imagined she would say one thing and do quite another.

Just recently she said she would look at certain schools to enroll our daughter. That gave me enough pause to not do anything until I got her opinion. I asked her again about the schools since dealines for enrollment quicly approach and she revealed that she already enrolled our DD in school without ever telling me or involving me in the decision making process.

I'm taking action about this.

Yes, I wanted mine back too, but wouldn't dream of it now. I'm better off single forever than with her.

Can someone explain the 180?

I read on someone else's post that the 180 is not recommended by the Harleys. Does the 180 get away from Plan A or is something else going on?

HWW

Anyone out there?

No, the 180 is not outlined in the MB plan(s). At least not in any of the information I've read...if someone has something to the contrary of that, I'd be interesting in seeing it.

180 is a tool from a different system. The Harley's recommend exactly what you've read on the materials on the links on this site. Plan A and plan B are the methods they recommend for rebuilding a marriage from infidelity.

The "180 plan" is basically beginning to withdrawl from your WS. Become cool to them, show little to no interest in them, their drama, etc... Work on yourself, take care of yourself, and no longer allow them to affect you. When you "pull away" from them in this fashion, it often causes them to change their stance and begin pursuing you instead. They begin to feel that 'loss of you' in their lives. They feel (rightfully so) that they're losing the control over you that they have.

I personally think it can be an effective tool, but its not without its risks. Unlike plan B (which is IMMEDIATE, COMPLETE withdrawl from them), this allows your WS to slowly become accustomed to not having you in their lives. It runs the risk of allowing them to become acclimatized to that situation...if your WS has always been an independent person, then the 180 carries a decent risk of ending your marriage rather than recovering it.

Those are my thoughts...others here have more info on it, I'm sure.

I feel stuck in the mud. I guess I will try to be pleasant, but my wife is always resentful and angry, so talk is useless. I'm withdrawing coincidentally just as the 180 list describes. I'm just taking care of the kids and pushing my attorney to help me get my wife out of the house.

It really feels like my marriage is over.

I have no desire to date, just a strong desire to get my wife out of the house.

That is why plan B is so important to protect the remaining love you have left for your spouse. Keep fighting to get her out of the house.

Except for the very few where the affair immediately ended on D-Day....we ALL felt like this. I, myself, resigned myself to this seeming fact and to the extent I/we could, I determined that I was going to TRY to enjoy my/our last summer as an intact family. I didn't want to have any regrets. I know it's tough to do with a active wayward on the loose....but you can try.


Your attorney may be telling this to you as well but don't go too overboard trying to aggressively get her out. She will go eventually or not, likely upon her own inclination. It's not your call and if you press it verbally and legally her attorney COULD attempt to paint you as the bad guy. Trust your attorney.

BTW, there have been many cases where the divorcees have to live together right up to the bitter end. It's a disturbing scene but when the fight calls for it we know YOU won't leave and she MAY just be too stubburn to do it. Prepare for the worse.

Usually...the one having an affair is soooo addicted to the affair, they find that living at home is just too uncomfortable and interferring with their addiction. They often rationalize and justify a way for them to leave. Very likely...blaming you, their controlling, manipulative, desparate, needy, critical, abusive or whatever husband.

Don't mind what she says...Act, Don't React.

Mr. Wondering

MrW. and Jim,

Hi. Thanks for the posts. I think I'm done with exposure for now, what do you all think?

I'm talking to the OMW on a regular basis. I don't think she's interested in reconciling with her husband. He's cheated on her before. She also knows how her husband cheated on his first wife before she met him (she was not the other woman in that situation). She's done it sounds like, which makes this man a very needy man. I'm sure he's going to cling to my wife. After all, he doesn't have a job.

My wife's biggest complaint with me is money, but she's hooked up with this unemployed guy who has to financially support two families; nice one.

My attorney is seeking affidavits from some people who have witnessed my wife's bad behavior with adolescents. Another 2x4 for my wife.

I wish you all could have seen my wife's reaction when I confronted her with a trip she was planning out west with the OM. My wife's mode of operation now is to run to the children and try to create a show that makes it look like I'm pursuing her. What a chicken s**t.

As you can see, I becoming increasingly more resentful of my wife every day. Man I want her gone.

I found out from the OMW that the wife and OM are having trouble. OM told my WW that he wants to date. WW and OM have been arguing.

Wife seems depressed at home.

I think I'm going to go slow. I know she's going to chase him.

HWW

All you have to do is outlast her affair, and then you can have her back (under your conditions if you still want her).

Wife is snooping on the computer. Guess she doesn't realize that I can see her snooping.

Hi HWW,

Have been following, but can't add anything of substance since I'm new at this. Sounds like the WW A is getting rocky and that OM is getting tired of her. Good for you if you still want to save the M. She'll probably be even more difficult to live with now. Good luck...

In my past notes, I described how my wife was routinely taking my clothes up to the attic and tossing them. I put a stop to that, but I never moved all my clothes back to the bedroom. I came home today from working out and found all my clothes back in the master bedroom.

I thought to myself, why would she do this? Frankly, I don't know why and I can't assume it's for any reason other than to manipulate me. But, I went downstairs and simply said thank you for putting my clothes back. I thought to myself, 'in a way I didn't even owe her a thank you'. It didn't feel right to even say thank you. I don't know.

If the WW is hitting a rocky patch with the OM, then that's good, but it's not NC. I've got a long long way to go and I don't think it makes much sense to react much. I'm just going to keep on doing what I've been doing.

I had to remind myself so I read 1 Corinthians 13.

Any other thoughts?

HWW

hi knitgirl,

difficult, more difficult? Goodness, I hope not. I've gone through at least three ugly, ugly, ugly scenes with my wife; where I listened and didn't love bust but absorbed the most horrible verbal abuse. God it was awful. I tried to calm the situation, but she talked right over me. I tried to let a little time pass, but she went at me in different ways. I tried to change the subject, but she wouldn't let me. She extracted 25 years of accumulated love in just over three hours of this verbal abuse.

Now every time I start thinking of my wife fondly, I just think about those encounters and my empty feelings for her return. I wish I had tape recorded those rantings.

I don't know what she's up to, but I need to be very careful. Plus, she could get a phone call from the OM tomorrow and jump right back into his arms. This is so f****d!!!!!

HWH

HWW,

I read your entire thread over the past two nights (I've been stuck at work, YUCK). I just wanted to tell you that you are doing a superb job; Plan A is the toughest.

One question, do you ever get time away from your wife, to decompress, no kids, just you and some friends? Plan A is not about running yourself into the ground over your M, it is about changing you, which you have and are doing. .

I think your best bet is to not have any NEGATIVE conversations anymore; if your WW starts to draw you in, take a step back and remind her that you will not be spoken to in ____ way (that horrible tone, that negative tone, screaming, verbal abuse). Let her know that you are more than willing to TALK, when she can, but need to leave right now.

Again, I think you are doing very well, considering the circumstances that you are living in. Have you started to look into Plan B, to 'prep' for it. Maybe thinking of what you would want to say in a Plan B letter will help you to have a better picture of your goal. Sometimes, Plan A can bog you down and take your sight off of the real goal.
With that said, I wish you the best in your endeavor to save your M.

Silentlucidity, Thank you for the post. I was having a blue Sunday evening by myself, doing some reading, when I saw your post.

Yes, I do work on myself, thanks for asking. I see now why that's so very important. I'm down to my college weight, and I've been working out daily. I know others have commented on my appearance; even my 15 year old! I do get out, sometimes with friends, sometimes by myself. I'm avoiding my wife. I'm trying to be around her as little as possible. If she reaches out to talk, then that's fine.

You are right about Plan A. It is extremely difficult. I was looking at some older threads on MB and I must say; it's difficult to find a situation like mine. I mean, my wife filed for divorce two months after D Day. She's never looked back or waffled. I guess that's what discourages me the most. She's so certain it's over.

Finally, I'm hearing about some difficulty between her and the OM. I knew this would eventually happen. But, I feel like I must suppress any feelings of hope. I remember all the terrible things my wife yelled at me on those occassions when she verbally abused me. That helps me turn away from her and keep my wall up.

I'm not sure when Plan B is going to happen for me because of the kids. I'm being advised by everyone close to me to fight for custody. I can't Plan B until custody is determined and I somehow get my wife to move out. Until then, I'm in a Plan A from ******.

I hope things are going well for your recovery. It is such a lonely feeling; this Plan A.

Thanks for your wishes.

HWW

HWW,

Oh, I remember the lonelies. It wasn't so much about being ALONE, as much as longing for something better. I get that, I think we all understand.

I know it's hard to do, but try to remind yourself that this woman is in a state. She's NOT herself, not really. You are talking (listening to her scream, maybe is more on target)to a veritable stranger.

You are learning how to duck and bob and weave around her punches. Any time she actually lands a blow, you get back up. YOu are also protecting your kids from her [email]cr@pola[/email] right now, and now that they are all privvy to the REAL situation, they respect that you are working so hard for them. People will tell you that you may or may not save your M; this is true, but you WILL save yourself. You will be happy again. There's no two ways about it.

You are doing a tremendous amount of work on yourself, and you will reap the benefits. This time is but a small space in your entire lifetime; it is one of the toughest, but it will be small, in retrospect.

With such a volatile sitch as yours, if and when you can Plan B, you will get some well needed rest from the lunacy of a WS. YOu will be able to carry a good feeling from one moment to another, without a batch of Wayward spew mucking it all up.

Silentlucidity, I feel so humiliated right now. The wife just came home. She was so happy. She filled me in on what was going on with the kids and dropped of my son, then she left. I know when she's seeing the OM. My emotions are going nuts right now; between humiliation and rage.

My plan B is so far off. Can you imagine living in the same house as you WS for months and months. I can't give in for the kids.

Thank you so much for the encouraging words. I can't wait to sleep. I feel so bad right now.

(((HWW)))

HWW,

I'm thinking of you. I'm 10 days into Plan B, and WH quit trying to contact me, so I'm sure he is with OW. It sure does hurt. I also feel humiliated because I thought that we were in recovery. It's very lonely right now for me because I'm alone in a big house. Sometimes I think that I'll go nuts, so this site has been a life saver for me. At least you have the kids.

Hang in there. We're here if you need us....

HWW,

I CAN relate to living with a WS for months on end; I had a very long false recovery with my FWH (11 months). FWH first had a EA/PA==she dumped him, he came home. I did not know MB at the time. He began withdrawal, but it was oh so slow; she was his supervisor, but left the position for a consulting position==still had contact, albeit not much, for months after she left him. True withdrawal never took place because he started an EA with another coworker. I think detoxification was just too much for him at the time, reality was still no great alternative.

I found MB about 9 months into our false recovery, and started Plan A. After two months, I asked him to leave after confirming the EA and the fact that he 'can't be happy' with me. While separated, we attempted to get together, see if we could start over and make it work, meanwhile, he started another R with ANOTHER co-worker (I had no idea, at the time). Once I found out about another OW, I went to Plan B. I was so wounded and done!

Got an LSA, and did a poor plan B for a month, then I hunkered down a bit more, got used to doing it alone, got to like doing it alone. I still had my own withdrawal to go through, and my own fog to get out of, but once I did, I stayed the course. I was in Plan B mostly for one last ditch effort to save the M. I started working on me more and more. I was pretty depressed, the AD's helped, but it would come in waves.

My WH started to contact me about himself, so I bit, and because of that, we suffered another false recovery (1 month long), he was not finished with OW yet (they still worked together). I went back to plan B, dark, AGAIN. Thank God for this place and the plans. There is no fumbling, MB shows you the way.

After a couple of months, WH contacted me again, but it was different. HE moved out of OW's apartment and got his own, he was seeing a counselor, he wanted his family back.

Recovery is tough, but totally doable with MB backing you.

I know of another poster who has had to Plan A while his wife is continuing her A, and that is Crossroads. He was desperate for Plan B, but wife wouldn't move out. I still tell him to do it, even though he says his LB is in the red. Plan B is still serenity, and may provide a safe place for you to fan the flames of your love; maybe reignite the little flame.

Sorry this is so long. Recaps are never short. I know it's hard, but try to remind yourself that, truly, this is about her, and has nothing to do with you. She's not facing her problems and they will compound, follow HER wherever she goes.

**sigh**

thank you

I know the battle is long, but it can also be hard fought and won...

Maybe you need to watch a good war movie or a movie about Spirit, fight. "The Great Escape" is one of my favs. I love Steve McQueen!

Please don't take this wrong, because I know some conversation is wrong. I miss talking to my wife, but I miss talking to women. I'm constantly thinking about avoiding women, especially when it leads to anything personal. I'm sure you all are doing the same with men. I won't even talk to my married female friends without their husbands; that's how careful I'm trying to be. So, when I get some conversation with some women, it feels good, so thanks. It's like I've been banished to the men's room for the forseeable future, while my wife gets to romp around in any room she wishes.

I'm watching this Tom Cruise movie called Minority Report. Not too good. The Great Escape is a favorite of mine also.

I just watched a movie called "Sweet Home Alabama". I was able to use a line out of the movie on my wife. I said, 'I may talk slow, but I'm not stupid. I know better (about the fair being active, not just friends)'. She hung up on me.

I got a chuckle out of that.

HWW

I think it's good for us (women) to talk with men too, just to get their POV on these things. You guys hurt as much as we do, although you may not show it. I always thought it was mostly men that were unfaithful (not a slam, you are just raised with that impression) but I'm finding just as many men on this site. I'm amazed at just the sheer number of people on here who are going through the same thing. It's kind of freaky.

I agree it's freaky, but in a way comforting because it's all so predictable. If it wasn't, I think I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. Fact is, I'm in a way moving away from my wife to protect myself emotionally.

You said in an earlier post how your emotions go up and down. Boy, so do mine. I'm sure you would also agree that this is the most painful experience a human could experience. That first month was unbelievable. I can't compare it to rape or death of a child, but it was terrible. That's how surprised and in love I was.

What hurts even more, is how I've had empathy for the effects of betrayal, but my wife sure doesn't. I've had opportunities, but I never acted on them because I knew how much pain that would cause.

One of the things Dr. Harley says is that everyone would have an affair given the opportunity. I don't know. I can't imagine ever doing what my wife did to me to another human being. Ever.

HWW,

It's not conversation that will harm you, it is the kind of conversation, so don't fret over that with me. I kid with most of the guys on this site, as well as the women; people here KNOW what you are suffering, and sometimes let loose with some good jokes or good banter.

You are dealing with a lot of trauma right now, and a release of talking to someone else, not just about the A, but about what to do with yourself, is good, healthy.

I'm working late tonight, so I'm online, posting, looking at newer posters stuff, getting to know them. YOu and Knitgirl are talking and I'm listening. It sounds like Mr. W has been of great help to you, among many others, so I will dispense with much advice about the A and the lawyer and such.

I mostly talk about my sitch, me, what I did during Plan A, Plan B. I got a lot of hope from reading about other peoples [censored]. I didn't feel so alone, or that my situation was so UNIQUE.

silentlucidity, I looked at your thread and see that you've been in your sitch for a long time. How is it going with your husband?

Isn't it funny about that first month? After DDay, I couldn't get out of bed for two days. Short recap - he started the A while out of town on a long term assignment in another state. The day I found out, he said that he ended it, had to go back for one week, then he would be done with the assignment. I didn't know about MB back then, so when he came home 1 week later he said that he ended it, love me, was sorry, and wanted our M. To your point, if I had known about MB I would have known better than to believe him - as you said "predictability" is the key.

So for the next few months I really thought that we were fine. I fell in love with him again and we were doing things and having fun. I was Plan Aing without realizing what I was doing. Meeting EN's (although at the time I didnt know about EN's) It just felt like the thing to do. Then something changed. He started becoming distant, not in the game. BAM! After 5 months found out that he had never quit contacting her and that he was still seeing her during his travels. I think he tried to end it, but couldn't. Anyway, my point is that we now know what to expect and can deal with it - not understand it - but deal with it.

And yes, it is the worst pain I've ever suffered.

Man oh man, what a question. It is a tough row to ho, but I'm doing it. Think Plan A, under less severe circumstances. PWC (my FWH) is going through withdrawal, to what extent he has not discussed. We are two months+ into recovery now, and I am still working on ME. I need to, so that's just fine. I am doing my part to draw PWC back in, and I slip here and there, but I mostly just go about my day.

There is less pressure, because the A is over, but I often wonder if he will resume contact with OW. He cheated three times in two years. That's so tough for me to say, to admit that I was still willing to recover after all of that pain. He's home, he's doing his part, as much as he can, and we do get to smile sometimes and laugh sometimes, but it's hard work a lot of the time. I know that it will get better.

Already, my emotional status is much better. I am happier. Just me. Add my husband and a happy young boy (my DS turned 5 this May), and I am doing much better. My mood used to swing like a pendulum. Since Plan B, and now in recovery, I've learned so much about me. Now, I'm learning about my mistakes PRIOR to PWC's A's, and working to remedy those, make them permanent changes.

It's tough work, but easier than when I was in Plan A.

SL
I really do commend you for being willing to recover after that. I think for me, finding out the second time was worse than the first because at that point, he knew that I knew about the A, knew how much it hurt me, but still did it again. I feel humiliated, foolish. Don't think I could survive another one...

Knitgirl, I've been following your thread. You're doing really, really well. I wish I was where you are; Plan B.

The few mistakes you were worried about in your thread seemed like natural deviations that should not be a problem for your effort at all. You've done a good job getting back on course.

If it wasn't for the my various support outlets: God, sisters, psychiatrist, MB, friends and kids; I don't know how I would cope. I see you've got great support on your thread.

Well, to be honest, the second affair was during our separation, and YES it did hurt, but I don't know her at all. I have no idea what she looks like, nothing. I don't think it would be wise for me to go looking at this point either. It was also during a time when my WH was still so lost. Truth is, because he has done it more than once, I will be wondering for some time when he plans on hunting down the next woman. It's natural to think these things. His way of dealing with pain, in the past has been these OW.

I can only hope that he is working on himself and doesn't have a larger problem or addiction that MB cannot fix. I don't think so; I think he is majorly depressed. I was also in a Plan stay the heck away from me after our first false recovery, so it stood to reason that he would not be able to handle being alone. He sought out someone else. He said that he thought I was filing for D when I set up the LSA. Foolish.

Anyway, I'm not excusing his behavior, I'm trying to just process what I know. I know that, in the past, before any A's, my husband loved me, was proud to have me as his wife, lusted for me, WANTED me. I know this to be true. I know I was a better wife when all of these things occurred. That is what I am striving for now, regardless of what my FWH does. If we fail, it will not be for my lack of working and trying.

I listened to my sister this morning for over an hour about her relationship with her husband. We get ourselves so over-stressed, so taxed, so over-committed; why do we do this to ourselves?

Envy is the worst of the deadly sins; from it follows so many other sins.

Well, I had a good interview this evening. I'm going to fly out to San Diego, I've been called in for a 2nd face to face interview. The job opportunity is for a nice position, but I'm torn.

On the one hand, my SAHD side of me wants to remain in the role I have, but on the other hand, my SAHD role has been a source of humiliation. It's one of my wife's biggest resentments. She's told me numerous times how she's done supporting me. How I need to get a job. She doesn't give me credit for the money I've brought in through consulting income every year. To a lot of people, my consulting income is a very decent full time income . . . Did I mention the OM is unemployed?

My attorney has advised me to suspend my out of state job search because of my desire for custody. Many of my closest friends are advising me to restart my career. Oh, by the way the OM is unemployed (fired); did I mention that?

Talked to the OM's wife tonight. I've been communicating with her regularly. She told me she thought the two of them had an argument last week. It sounds like he's also told the wife he's dating. Then yesterday, the wife called him and he cut her off and hung up on her. My wife is really chasing him.

The day before dday, my wife and I were at a small dinner party. We came home and she came to me and we made love. We said, 'I love you' to each other. I thought our love and relationship was stronger and closer than ever. The next night dday. Am I that big of a fool?

Watching my wife four months later pursue and chase this guy kills me. I'm handling it although. The house and kids are in good order. I'm following the 180 list. The 180 list just came naturally to me. It's what I'm doing to wall off my emotions. Next week I'm heading to San Diego for job interview. Might be a very good opportunity in a good market. One step at a time . . .

No, you didn't mention that the OM is unemployed. What happened?

If you come to San Diego, bring plenty of money. Housing is HIGH.

believer,
Yea, I know housing is high in SD, but how would you compare it to other areas? In other words, for every $1 I earn in Michigan, how many $$ do in need to earn in San Diego, $3, $4?

I've been giving a lot of thought to this question. The position is a CFO position.

HWW

Living costs are reasonable here. Housing costs are ridiculous. A 3 bedroom 30 year old fixer upper in the ghetto, where there are drive-by shootings will run you about $350,000. A plain house in a somewhat decent area will be $500,000. Wages are generally low, because of our proximity to Mexico, and all the military, who often take second jobs, and their spouses.

The company location is La Jolla. Yep, pretty healthy prices. Looks like home prices keep going up. Do you think that will continue?

HWW

Yep - I've been here 30 years and it is continuing, and always has. And LaJolla is even worse. It's a beautiful place to live though. Trouble is, there is NOWHERE cheap. We have Mexico to the south, and it is expensive right to the border, the ocean to the west, and LA to the north. Even if you live way out in the desert 80 miles from work, the houses are high. Same thing with rent - it is high for what you get.

I think you would be better off staying in Michigan and trying for a job there. I know the job market sucks, but I understand houses are cheap. Our foreman just left here to go there. He and his wife are young, both working good jobs, and there was no way they would ever get a home here.

Thanks. We'll see what kind of offer they make me.

HWW

I'd just like to chime in that your WW is not divorcing you because you don't have a strong career, she is divorcing you because she is addicted to her OM. OM is currently unemployed, so you getting a job is San Diego is going to be no more attractive to her. You have her over a barrel right now, don't give up your leverage. Don't abandon your children because this job will make you feel more like a man. You should feel like a man because you are taking care of your children and fighting to keep their family together.

I agree with Jim. Stay home, fight the good fight. YOU have to face YOURSELF. Your issues about feeling manly are yours. You are working a very tough job, taking care of kids and running a business from home. You may be fighting your own notions, not your wifes.

You are a hero to those kids, fighting for what is good and right. Keep on making that place safe for them, and you will be rewarded more richly than any job will ever provide you, with happy, healthy kids.

Sil and Jim are spot on. Those children and their protection is what matters right now, certainly not the the thoughts, good or bad, of a selfish, cheating woman.

Everyone, I'm anguishing over these decisions. First of all, I feel very vulnerable with my consulting business. The economy is MI is terrible; it's very bad. My clients are badly struggling. And I admit, I am troubled by my SAHD role.

Second of all, my Plan B is not proceeding. I'm working with my attorney. I spoke to her again this morning. Who knows when Plan B will begin, but I'm having an ever increasingly difficult time with Plan A. I'm in 180 mode now, just to protect myself and prevent huge love busting on my part.

Third, I need to move on with my life. Right? I want my wife to see that I'm moving on. I don't see my life continuing in Michigan any longer no matter what. Whether I reconcile with my wife, or I don't reconcile; it doesn't matter. ******, the OM moved just down the street. I can't reconcile with my wife when the OM is walking distance away. I'll fight the fight for custody and my kids will be asked for their parental preference. If I can get to a cool spot, that will help.

Finally, I hate the thought of not being there for the kids. I really do, and this brings me back to staying. When my DD has tears in her eyes at the thought of moving, it makes me hate my wife.

So I'm incredibly conflicted. I just try to keep busy and take it one step at a time.

Help,

You are fighting for custody right now with every move you do or don't make. Tell your attorney that your goal is primary custody of your children and then let him in on any and all decisions that may affect them or harm your case including moving to California. Get his advice please and make the girls priority one above everything else. Be the one that looked out for them and didn't abandon them to a selfish, cheating, wife and loser OM.

I want my wife to see that I'm moving on.

Not right now, you don't. Not if you want a marriage in the end of all of this. You want the WW to know that you will make the changes that command, on their own merit, appreciation and respect; you don't want her to believe that there is no place for her in your life anymore.

You can cross the bridge of moving WITH your wife to a new location when the time is right. It's not, not right now. Hang in there, HWW.

I am not familiar with the 180 list. Can someone enlighten me.

I don't get this response. How is this conform with Plan B?

I am talking to my attorney about my intentions. Right now, I have no intentions, I'm just exploring options. I'm showing my wife that I'm taking care of myself. I'm showing my wife that I'm willing to meet her needs including the financial need. I'm showing my wife that I'm moving on.

Why is this wrong? What am I doing that's not in keeping with Plan A? I'm working on getting to Plan B. I'm at the end of my 4th month of this junk.

My 15 year old daughter just called me an a**h**e for turning the world against her mother. She called me every bad name out there because I've been telling everyone how bad a person my wife is. Well, my wife's actions speak for themselves. And I told my daughter that I've said very little about her mother, but her mother's actions are what causes everyone to rebuke and talk about her. I'm sick of this 15 year-old highschool 'crush / drama' mentality.





HWW

Oh, I didn't know that you were IN plan B. Disregard, if so. In Plan B, you want her to know what D would be like, for sure.

Here is a link:

180 Divorce Buster

You have to remember, my wife filed for divorce and is full steam ahead.

HWW

I'm not in Plan B, yet. I'm trying to get there, soon.

Regardless of what your wife does, you keep up the 180, NOT Plan B. You take no crap, walk away, state your boundaries, with honor and respect, but you don't move away, you don't show her the D face, not yet.

I know you are hurting, and I understand, just follow the plans as best you can. Nobody is perfect, HWW, we know that. I hope your WW moves out sooner than later

I think she tried to move in with the OM and the OM told her 'not with me'. That's the impression I have from talking to the OM's wife. Now, I'm dealing with cake eating because the OM is just down the street.

It's almost 8:00 am, Thursday, and my wife is still in bed. This is a first!

Last night my wife came to me in the kitchen; I was cleaning the dishes. I had just returned from a good long walk and she had returned from a business trip. She asked me a quick question and I responded. Her eyes were red and blood shot and her face was angry and resentful. She didn't look sad, but she looked like she had been crying.

I know my attorney has turned the heat up significantly. We're pushing for a mutual restraining order. We're pushing for information under something called Interrogatories. We're pushing to get into mediation (so I can try to get her to move out).

I'll try to see what I can learn from the OM's wife about the A. My wife is a mess.

Last night my wife came to me in the kitchen; I was cleaning the dishes. I had just returned from a good long walk and she had returned from a business trip. She asked me a quick question and I responded. Her eyes were red and blood shot and her face was angry and resentful. She didn't look sad, but she looked like she had been crying.


This is why I'm saying to keep up Plan A as much as you can; your M has to be a good alternative to OM. If your wife is entering a danger zone, your recovery will not work. Recovery is, initially, her committing to it, and you continuing in a Plan A type of way. If she does choose marriage, you two will need to move; that can be when the job search hits full stride.

Right now, showing her that you are moving on could be detrimental to a chance for recovery.

When you get ready to depose WW ALSO depose OM. This will put added pressure on their little affair.

Sil has a good point. It is okay to seem in control and moving on so to speak but also keep up plan A (if you still desire to recover your M)when the opportunity presents itseld. It could be something like making her a cup of coffee or tea when you saw her state of mind last night. She will not appreciate it at this time and it will seem for naught but according to recovered FWS's they remember things like this.

I like hopeandpray's take. Just the act of making her a cup of tea, setting it down in front of her, and walking away. That is giving, loving. You don't have to bend over backwards, or sacrifice more hurt.

Now, if she decides not to drink it, or to fling it across the room, that is about HER, not you. She is struggling. YOu see it.

I would love to do something nice for her, but I feel like she needs to come to me a bit first. I was just sitting here thinking to myself if I should throw her a bone of some sort. The tea idea has been tried in the past (in a different form), and it was met with love busters. I don't need or want any more LB's.

My son and I watched a cute little home decorating show where they made this candle display frozen in ice. My son made my wife a little candle display and gave it to her this morning. I think she sees my hand in those kinds of gifts. In the mean time, I've got the cleaning service here and a load of laundry running.

I've been doing a little work on the San Diego interview; prep'ing for the company and communicating with the CEO by email.

This morning she looked terrible, but I had a bit of a pleasant conversation with my wife. Last night her face was full of resentment and anger. This morning she was more pleasant. Our conversation was over this and that, but that's ok. That's when I could tell she looked terrible. Her face had an anguished look to it. Something is going on. I just don't know what.

My Plan A is just to demonstrate that I can be a good husband, not to win her back. Plan A won't win her back. My 180 is not to be unpleasant, but to work toward moving on, and that's helping me wall off my emotions. If she comes to me and talks, I'll keep it to the point, and I'll be pleasant. I think it's a bad idea to talk about the divorce or the relationship.

I'm going to call the OM's wife later and see if I can learn anything new. Thanks everyone for being there.

HWW

silentlucidity,
This just seems to be contrary to what I've been reading. Plan A is meant to be short. Just a way to demonstrate that I am able to change, and I can be a good husband. I keep reading how Dr. Harley really thinks Plan A won't work and it's Plan B that eventually leads to the steps necessary to reconcile. I'm really working hard to transition to Plan B as soon as possible. I'm at the end of month four since d-day.

HWW

Sounds like you've got a good handle on how to communicate, and that is really important right now.

It's hard, really hard. I may sound like I've got it figure out (TG for MB), but it's tough to carry out; especially when I look at her. I still love her.

HWW,

Hang in there. We all know this A won't last because OM is such a loser. She'll eventually see it.....

I know it doesn't help much, but I've been right where you are, and it's nearly impossible to stay in that place for any long period of time, something is going to break, and if you keep up Plan A, then go to Plan B, it will be your WW.

At this point, you have not nearly as much to lose as she does. You will not only have your children, and their trust, and your home, but you will have peace of mind knowing that you are doing what is good and right. Your integrity will be completely in tact. It may not mean much NOW, but it will.

Thank you.

Is it possible to expose the affair too much, to too many people in a way that becomes overly vindictive while the affair is active?

Good question-

I guess it depends on your motivation. Are you exposing with the intent of doing whatever it takes to save your M or are you doing it to "stick it" to the affair partners?

I think you need to do whatever it takes to save your M and if your WS accuses you of being vindictive-I would state that fact.

That's my take.

Thanks. The exposure has really taken a toll on the wife; she's scandalized. It's the scandal of the decade and the wife is really feeling it. She's ashamed. It's a large scarlet A she carries now, and she blames me for telling the whole world. That's not true for two reasons: 1. one she started the gossip when she started talking to 15 year olds about her affair very early after dday (I was keeping things to myself); and 2. I talked to a few close friends, but the scandal's juiciness took over and the gossip became rampant.

What's my motivation? At first it was to stop the affair. From time to time, I think I was motivated by anger, humiliation and despair. Now, I answer questions and I don't hold back any of the truth. The truth hurts.

I have to tell you all, I had a very bad afternoon. I was in pain, physical pain. The morning went well. I did some work and worked on the house, but after I got a call from a friend, I went down hill.

Last night I drove up to a different town to see a friend, who I've worked with frequently in the past. He's divorced and recently became engaged. I'm happy for him. His fiancee is also divorced.

After being married all my adult life and with the same woman since I was 20, I always pitied divorced people. You could just see the effect of divorce on them and they were forever different. Several of my friends have gone through this and they were never emotionally the same.

When I met up with my friend and his fiancee, we had dinner and we talked about divorce. I heard their stories. It was traumatic. After dinner we met up with two more of their friends at a free jazz concert. The two new friends were both women and both divorced. My buddy took me aside to inform about the two women. What he told me made me feel sick to my stomach. One woman was 'sexually free' and 'open with her body', but the other woman was a wh*re. No two ways about it. She apparantely chronicled her sexual exploits and gave the stories away. Her husband was, I'm sure, was crushed and gutted.

These two women were pleasant enough in conversation, but I just couldn't get past the company I was with. I was really becoming depressed with the new demographic I was heading to join: a divorced middle aged man. I was blue, but it wasn't until around noon the next day that I had some really tough physical pain. I slept. I missed an apppointment, then I finally yanked my butt up and went and worked out. I felt better. I've never felt like this before.

The wife met up with me at a kid activity. She was pleasant and told me how she was wearing her daughter's pants. I was pleasant, and briefly responded to her chatter; following the MB and 180 rules.

She went out tonight and looked very nice; just downright sexy. She's down to a size two pant. I commented to her that she's never worn a size two in her life; she smiled at that comment.

This just couldn't be any worse.

HWW,

I'm with you. I had a breakdown this week too. I'm somewhat in your sitch. I'm a few years older, but been M to same person since I was 19. I'm in a semi-Plan B (working with Jennifer on it), but he travels, so basically quit coming home. I'm not sure if it's bad or good not to see them at all. There's an emptiness to it. It makes me feel like I did the night my Dad died.

Knitgirl, I do much much better when I don't see her. I think of her and it's empty for sure, but seeing her go out looking great is so painful. I'd rather have the emptiness frankly. I'm really looking forward to Plan B myself.

I'm disappointed in my attorney. I rather hoped I'd hear more on the divorce's next steps. We're supposed to go into mediation, which I don't expect to solve much. But, then we get in front of a judge and have him start making the hard decisions. Who's going to have physical custody and who's going to move out.



HWW

HWW,

Maybe you're right. It's probably better not to see them, but this withdrawl is agony. At least you have kids. I'm in a big house alone, so I go nuts sometimes. Have you talked with the Harleys at all?? I had my first session with Jennifer, and ahe advised me to take a little different approach than I would have done, so hopefully something will happen.

The thing is, you don't have to choose the same type of demographic. Sure you may be divorced (and maybe not) but you can choose who you associate with. There are some very GOOD divorced people out there. There are some on this board. Not all of them have discarded their morals and are letting it all hang loose. The moral climate is definitely different these days but you can choose not to be a part of that.

Don't think about the future, just concentrate on today and CHOOSE to be a decent, moral, stand-up guy.

Oh Knit, you are right about being by yourself. When the kids are gone, that's when it's the worst. I hope you get up and go shopping. I'm not a shopper, but if I can think of one little thing to go buy, I'll do it just to stay moving when I'm by myself.

Chatting here is also helpful, especially when everyone is on-line together at the sametime.

No, I haven't spoken to the Harleys. I feel like there isn't much they can do right now. My wife is full speed ahead for the divorce and the pursuit of the OM. Until that breaks, I don't know what the Harleys can do.

What was the different approach that Jennifer suggested?

HWW

I had done a poor job of Plan B. I don't have caller ID at work, so I answered. The letter p***** him off, he said it was a Dear John, blahblah. Really lashed out at me.

Anyway, he travels 100%, so Jennifer recommended that I do one more letter before going dark. She said explain how we can can have a life of caring, protecting etc. You know, all of the MB stuff. Then list out ideas of how we can spend everyday together. She felt that from what I told her, he was trying to end it but couldn't seem to (OP left some threatening VMs that I heard, so I know he tried). Anyway, she said that if he didn't respond to the letter, then we talk about Plan B. She was just comforting to talk to, which sometimes you need. I was a basket case this week, so it was good to talk to someone that helped me get a better plan. Worth the $185. She also helped me compose the letter.

Knitgirl, I'm really glad Jennifer was so much help. Yep, the money is nothing compared to the pain and suffering. I think MB has it right, but in my case, my wife is way too far gone. Take solice, because there's no hope for me. I'm starting month five and my WW is out driving around with the OM in broad daylight. My sister and my niece saw them today and snapped some pictures. They rolled down their window and confronted them. It wasn't pretty.

What does everyone tell us . . hang in there? I can tell from your post that you're like me. We're both 'hanging in there', but we're ready for some relief. Knitgirl, you need to remember that I envy you. At least you're in Plan B. I wish I was there. Trust me, I'm still co-habitating with my WW and IT IS AWFUL!!!

You may feel lonely, but come here and talk. I'll be happy to tell you how lucky you are! I can't wait until I can get to Plan B. I can't wait until I get my wife out of the house.

HWW

Well, the wife's affair was photographed today. She was confronted by my sister and my niece. My niece had her camera phone with her and took pictures. My sister said 'hello' to them and caught them off guard. My wife nearly jumped out of her seat.

Later I called my wife and asked, 'where are the children'. She hung up on me.

Question is, in keeping with the tsunami of truth, what should my niece do with the camera phone pictures?

They asked if they could post them on MySpace where everyone could see them.

Why certainly...your neice can do whatever she likes with her pictures.

It's best if you don't "advise" her of what to do and/or tell her to post them and email them around to family members just in case you end up in court as WW's attorney could question you about it during his/her anticipated attempt to portray you as a vindictive betrayed husband that is only in court fighting for custody in an attempt to punish your wife versus the best interest of the kids. (that is one loooooong sentence).

Stay calm...enjoy your summer as best you can with your kids. They will be grown up before you know it and whichever way your marriage goes (recovery or divorce) it's going to be a tumultuous couple of years for your family regardless. They NEED you to be their strength and you will end up feeling pretty good about yourself, again regardless, if you assume that family figurehead position to the best of your ability.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

a suggestion

Cedar Pointe?????

Because your children are a bit older and could, individually, play a big part in any custody dispute (as in they get to give their preferences). You've got to counter-balance WW's "friendly" "reborn teenager fun" style of parenting with some good ole fashion family fun. A trip to Cedar Pointe...without the wife (though in Plan A she should be invited)...is in order.

Mr. Wondering

Plan A died this morning. I had had enough, but I was calm. I told my wife let's get the divorce going. I told my wife I'm going to do everything I can to get custody and keep the kids away from her and her scandalous behavior. I told my wife to move out. I told her she was an adult adolescent. I told her that her affair with the OM was a teenage crush and she needed help. I told her to get out again. I told her the whole community was talking about her because her behavior was so outrageous. I told my wife the only reason she hadn't moved out was because the OM wouldn't let her move in.

I sick of this.

Okay Help...if you are truly through trying to save your M then its WAR time.

Get with your attorney and get the paperwork filed first, asking for sole custody (you can always negotiate joint legal and primary placement), allege adultery, name OM, get depositions started, serve those to be deposed including any enabling friends of WW and OM, document everything regarding finances, child rearing, rasing, meeting needs, past and present. Get it written that OM is not to be near children, ask for state guidelines on child support. If she makes more than you then ask for rehabilitative alimony.

Do not argue with her, talk with her about D, argue in front of the children, if she tries then tell her your attorney handles D, you only discuss marriage reconciliation.

This is a battle with a WW not your W, remember that.

hopeandpray,

My wife has already filed on me. We hit my wife with a financial status quo mutual restraining order. Next step is mediation. Then we get to see the judge.

Plan A is dead. Don't see anyway to revive it either. It's really ugly. The main thing is to get the wife out of the house, and get as much custody as possible. What a nightmare.

Mr.W. Good suggestion, I'm trying to figure out how and when. Kids go to camp this weekend. I may have to wait until their back because of all the other things going on.

HWW

Hi,

Thought I would give y'all an update. The wife and I are still living together; it's agony. As you know, I've been a SAHD working part-time out of the house. My wife is in an affair with her boss and has sued me for divorce. I've worked hard to end the affair, but the affair keeps on going strong.

I don't know where my Plan A is anymore. I have to admit I've lost faith in MB principals. I've stopped talking to my wife. It does no good. She's a ******. I'm amazed I've been married to such a horrible human being for so long. My kids routinely take her side and my relationship with my son is at rock bottom. My wife has done a good job on them.

So, I've had some great interviews and I'm excited about some of my out of state opportunities. I've talked it over with my attorney, and if I get a acceptable offer: I'm gone.

I'm starting my fifth month. Emotionally, I've come a long way. I've certainly lost my love for my wife. She's a w***e in my opinion and she can go to he**.

What about your kids? Are you going to leave them with her? They don't stand a chance in life if that's the case.

HWW,

You have been way overdue for Plan B. Maybe getting a job will get you out of there, but my concern is for your kids. I agree that leaving them with her is not the best for them. Is there any way that you can get her OUT?

No way to get her out, and as soon as I leave the house, she wins. My options are terrible, because Michigan's economy is so terrible. It's probably hard for many of you to understand how bad the economy is in Michigan, but we've been in a one state recession for seven years. I've had numerous interviews, but not a single one in Michigan.

The way they compute child support and alimony leaves me with insufficient funds to afford our current house. There's no penalty for infidelity. I'd have to sell the house and move into a smaller place no matter what. So, I'd move the kids anyway, and the kids would hate me for moving them into a smaller house farther away from their friends. No, the kids have been bribed by their mother. She has the very good paying job in Michigan, so she can afford the house and give them what they need; stability.

I need to get my self back in the career game, in a good location, with a good opportunity. At that point, I'll ask the judge for custody.

No offense, but you have no clue what you are doing. Moving will likely hurt any custody battle. You won't be able to move your children out of the state, and probably would lose out if you moved to a different city. Document when your WW is abusive to you. Carry a digital recorder and get her on tape being verbally abusive. If you lawyer does nothing, get another lawyer. Who cares whether your children are mad at you for moving? Tough, you need to provide an example and some tough love. When they complain you say it is your WW's fault for breaking up the family, not yours. If your WW has to be pay child suppor AND alimony, she'll likely have trouble affording the house as well. Maybe seeing her kids upset about moving out of their house might snap her out of the fog a little bit. You are those kids' only hope. Otherwise, who knows how they'll turn out with your WW running the show.

Also, it sounds like your lawyer is pretty soft. I might look into changing counsel. Do you know anyone else who got divorced? Maybe you can call a non-divorce lawyer and they might give you a good recommendation. A good lawyer would discuss a strategy to get her out of the house. He doesn't even sound like he talks to you much.

Don't leave your kids. That's terrible, no matter how mad they may be with you.

How are they with OM? Has she brought them around him?

Trust me on something, they will never accept him. They may do the dog and pony show for their mom, but he'll never be accepted. You will likely go through stages with them. Right now they're taking her side.

All you can do is continue to try to be a loving father. Why are they against you and for mom? Do they accept her adultery?

Leaving them will royally screw them up. Get 3 jobs if you need to get by, but don't leave your kids. They're not little kids. You don't have to worry about sitters and nannies and such. You can work a second job if necessary.

The worst thing you can do is leave them. You're being very short sighted, just as I was. You're missing the forest for the trees. The kids NEED you. Who cares if they're mad. They're teens. Mad is their default mode of operation. They lash out because they are confused.

Your daughters especially need you to be in their lives.

How do you know this man she's with isn't a pedophile? You need to be a source for them to approach if things ever get questionable. You need to be their sanctuary. Even if you're in a 3 bedroom apartment, you need to be their source of refuge from the madness of your WW.

Your wife is dead. The WW is an evil, nasty woman who looks like your W, but that's it. Cut her off financially if you're able to. Make her pay for her own stuff.

DO NOT LEAVE YOUR KIDS! She wins if you do this. You will hand your children over to a cheating adulteress. I made that mistake and I'm paying for it.

Your kids will have a say in custody, but I can guarantee you that they will likely rebel against the adultery if she tries to impose this man on them.

Hang in there, be strong and be a man. Retreat is not an option and neither is running away.

Alright broken dreams, explain how things didn't work for you. I'm getting so much conflicting advice, but what you need to realize is that the a SAHD is not a respectable individual. Don't hand me plattitudes, I'm sick of plattitudes. My kids don't respect me because my wife is the executive and makes the money, not me. I'm sick of the look on my kid's faces when they try to tell their friends what I do for a living. A mother always has a slight emotional advantage with kids, especially boys. My kids can travel. They can hop on a plane to see me if necessary. They fly all the time.

If I can get myself in a good situation in an exciting location with a good job, then I'm going to be a very appealing father. Of all the advice I've been given, this is the best advice. My wife can deal with the kids and try to make the OM happy. He isn't going to stick around under these circumstances.

You need some counseling. Your insecurities are eating you alive. Yeah, I'm sure you'll be nominated for dad of the year abandoning your children and having them come fly to see you a couple time a year. Get a grip. Why don't you just stop posting because you obviously don't care about saving your marriage and keeping your family together, you just care about feeding your ego and feeling like a man again. If fighting for your marriage and your family doesn't make you feel like a man, then there is nothing I can do for you.

Help,

Let me make something clear. I for one applaud your willingness to a SAHD. This is something the TWO of you agreed on and this in my mind carries as much weight and prestige as it would if your wife were a SAHM. Its admirable.
Now what is not admirable is giving up and letting your WW take the boys and move them in with the boyfriend of the week. Things that are right and just normally don't have paved roads, they are rocky and dirty and hard ways to travel. Stay strong, stay in the game and protect your children from WW's selfishness and entitlement.

Gotta agree with these folks! You want to be Dad-of-the-Year by letting your kids live with a mother that is substandard at best! She is no example of a woman or a mother and has shown herself to be a bad mother thru this. And you want your boys to live in that environment? With two people that have no clue about honor, character, morals, etc??

Your kids need at least one good parent. Your wife so far is not it. And now you wanna choose to be like her? You want to abandon them to this mess?

If you dont fight for those kids, no one will! And they will suffer. Mark my words.

HWW,

I agree with Jim here, you are letting EGO lead you, emotion lead you. Your wife is not thinking about her children, and now you aren't . Who's going to be the adult and sacrifice for those kids. Yup, you decided to be the parent, NOW BE ONE. Never, ever leave your children; they will never be the same once you do. Yes, your daily strife will likely end, but you will be sacrificing the future of your kids for a quick fix to your problem, and YOUR problem alone.

Who the h3ll are you talking to that tells you that being a SAHD is a position of disrespect? Stop listening to CHILDREN, who know nothing of being adults. You are their father, not their buddy, and they may curse you and swear at you and even say horrible things like "i wish you were dead". They are KIDS. I used to say those things about my mom and STEP father. I never accepted him, ever. I hated living with him. HE never cared for us, not really, it was a terrible sitch.

Do not give in to what your WAYWARD wife says about you to the kids or anyone else for that matter; who gives a flying fart what she thinks. She's, currently, a POS wayward, good for nearly nothing, sucking up everybody elses oxygen with her hot air.

If you move, YOU LOSE. You will rarely see your children, for you will be painted as an abandoner in court. Judges don't know you, they rule by the law, and what you DO; they don't care that you did it because you were feeling low, and your self-respect was thrown out the window. They will not care WHY you left, just that you did. You may not care now, but you sure as h3ll will when you never see your children again, and they hate you because you left them. They will not understand, no matter what you say; they will BE ABANDONED by you.

Give this some real thought without emotion or vanity. What is best for those kids right now and as they grow? Money isn't everything [email]d@mnit![/email] I was happier as a poor child than I ever was when my mom remarried

Sil pretty much sums it up here, Help......

Help,

The advice here is pretty universal. Moving away is the worst thing you can do.

You are, indeed, very insecure. You don't need to earn a lot of money to be a dad. The kids would rather you be poor and have A job vs an exec with 16 hour days making lots of money and not seeing them. It's not like you're sitting around hoping your acting career takes off while you spend the day smoking weed. You're out there, working, and that says more than not doing anything.

Shed your insecurities. Your focus needs to be on your kids and protecting them from her and her decisions, NOT on how you feel about your job and the kind of life you can give the kids.

Look at it this way, if you get custody she pays you child support and spousal support.

You need to be smart, though, because you won't get jack if you move away.

Moving away is horrible for your kids. I'm positive that the kids would rather you be a janitor just getting by but around and near them than an exec somewhere they only get to see a few times a year.

Get the great job away from there in 5 years when the youngest kids are grown up. Otherwise, be there, near them and fight for them.

You're too pessimistic and too insecure.

Insecurity comes with being a BS. It gets better.

Who cares what your kids think about your job? I'll bet you they'd rather have you around.

Trust me, they'll look back when they're older and see the effort you're putting in to be there for them IF YOU DON'T LEAVE!

They'll respect you for it. It might take them being in their 20s and having their own families to see it, but they'll see it eventually.

Can't take them on a trip? Take them to the park. Play soccer with them. Play video games with them. Take them to movies, or out swing dancing, or dinner. MAKE them dinner and sit down together as a family. Take them to a soccer game (it's cheap compared to other sports). Take them out to play paintball and have all of them team up against you in a forest somewhere. Take them to an arcade. Play a board game with them.

Go to their school activities. Ask them how their classes are going. Who are their friends? What do they like to do with their friends?

Your activities with the kids don't need to be expensive to be meaningful for them. I know a man who had to wake up very early every day to work with his dad on the family farm. It sucked and he griped and moaned about it while growing up. You know what happened when he left for college? He realized how much quality time with his father he had by doing that and missed it. Time with the kids is more important than expensive occasional trips with them.

They will be gone before you know it and you'll regret not having the chance to play ball with them or a board game. Cat's in the cradle. Think about it.

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Your kids and your time with them are much more important than out earning your crazy WW.

The clock is ticking on you. They'll be gone before you know it. Make the most of that time.

talk about stay at home dads, I found THIS on MSN this afternoon; that is how I feel all stay at home parents should see themselves, you are a very vital asset to those children...

HWW,

I work with a man who recently came back to work after being a SAHD for many years.

Everyone I work with think he has a halo above his head (including me.)

There is even some catty gossip going around about his W putting her career ahead of the family, and disrespecting her H for staying at home (I don't know what the deal is, I don't know him very well and don't partake in gossip... this is what I've heard through the grapevine, however.)

You'd be surprised about what people (adults, as Silentlucidity said) think about SAHDs. And this is from personal experience.

Katie Mae

The issue is moot for the time being. I did not receive an offer. I lost to another candidate who lived in the same area as the employer.

Kids are in camp. Wife hasn't come home for a week. I did see her at our pool-club yesterday, but I just enjoyed myself and ignored her. Before that, she was out of town all week, then spent Friday night at a girl friend's house, and then spent last night with the OM after he returned to town. Not seeing her is at least a reprieve of sorts for the time being. It's like being in Plan B, what a relief.

I talk to the OM's wife almost daily. She seems to enjoy our conversations. I ask her if our conversations help or stress her out. She's just gotten over cancer, so staying stress free is important. She says it helps. I tell her that if venting to me helps relieve anxieties, then I'm always available. I feel so bad for her because her husband has totally abandoned her when she needed someone most.

Be careful about a revenge affair. It would certainly be tempting, and very human, to get back at the OM by messing around with HIS wife.

Just a word of caution.

Stick it out for the kids.

Hi. I'm at the end of two full weeks of no contact with my WW, but come Sunday evening that will surely end. I'm dreading it.

The wife has been either living with the OM when he is in town, or living with a divorced girl friend when my WW is in town. It still hurts.

I've been reading and re-reading all the posts above, thank you. Harsh, but thank you. Honestly, I don't know. I'm working two more situations: one in San Diego and one in Seattle. Don't beat me. I'll let you know if anything comes of these opportunities.

Good friends, family and God; where would I be without them. Oh yes, MB too.

I spoke to the OM's wife again today. We might get together later. She told me how her husband is finally admitting to one of his older daughters that he's in love. He's committed to my wife. It's difficult to see how my marriage can ever be saved. "I feel like my situation is worse than anyone else's with WW".

I like to read other threads, but these boards aren't well organized. It's difficult to search for information within these boards. So, I look for clues in signatures, or links within other posts that take me to threads that inform or maybe hope.

Yea, that's right, hope. While I've boxed up my wife and thrown her out with the trash, I still can't shake the love. It really s*cks.

Not to make light of your sitch, hww - but them thar are some good country music lyrics!

Hang in there.
Mulan

That gave me a good chuckle. I live in MI, but I love country. You're right, them thar are good lyrics! You can use them on your next album Mulan.

Guess I've sung "Tonight I wanna cry" with Keith Urban a few too many times.

I said the same about my sitch. But nearing 2 years since D-day now, and my W and I are enjoying a closeness, like NEVER before......we have LEARNED how to grow love....and it starts from within yourself!

If you haven't read my story (I forget if I have posted to you before) take a look at my journey....I am proud of my survival, after looking squarely into the eyes of the devil, and seeing the depths of Hel l!!!

God Bless
MWIL

I can relate. I understand. It passess and gets better.

The worst is probably yet to come. Please be careful in that time because suicidal thoughts are not uncommon. Just know that they pass.

I spent 6 days in a hospital over my ordeal. I lost my career, my kids, my wife, and moved someplace where I didn't know anyone. I lived off the charity of others.

It was terrible.

But I'm better now and am as involved with my kids as I can be. I am here for them and wouldn't have it any other way.

Please keep that in mind. They will feel abandoned if you leave. Tough it out for them.

MWIL,

I have read your threads. I did get some encouragement from reading your story. Unlike your wife, my wife has never waffled. It blows me away. She's just walked away from me 100%; in just one day.

I still can't get over this: how she could tell me she loved me and make love to me the night before, then the next day, walk away. I had a psych tell me that 'women can do this'; how do you ever trust a woman again?

Wife came to me last night. She said, 'I want to talk. I did not want this to become uncivilized.' I thought for a moment, got up and walked away. As I left I said to her, 'I'm not aware that I've done anything that is uncivilized'. She retorted back, 'Well, I tried.'

Wife can't begin a conversation without an insult.

Remember...how YOU respond wasn't very "civil" either.

If you're wanting to recover at some point, responding the way you did last night wasn't the way. Learning to listen and respond without reacting to her behavior is how you'll get there.

"You wanna be right, or wanna be married?"

You had an opportunity there. As Owl said, you will have to learn to listen and not fire back.

Does that mean you have to agree with her? Hardly! If she comes out with some hard fog-babble, you dont have to just agree with her. You can, at the end of her statement, tell her that you dont agree...and then go back to your mantra of your marriage is still salvagable, that it is in the best interests of the kids and both of you, blah, blah, blah.

As long as yo uarent in Plan B, then you will need to engage your wife. By allowing her to talk, yo ucan guide her along the path. Eventually, most WSs begin to hear themselves as they talk...and realize how utterly stupid they have been!

Owl and Mortarman, I hear you. I'll think more about what you're saying. It just doesn't 'feel' right. It feels way too much like being a door mat at this point. She and the other man are way too involved. I've worked very hard to end the affair, but it just gets worse; there's no waffle. I still don't have a solid Plan B in the works yet either.

After our little talk last night, my wife ran to my daughter and told her everything. It was so inappropriate and so manipulative. I didn't find out until later today when my daughter confronted me. I did send my wife an email and here is what it said:

If you wish to carry on a conversation with me, then do not begin the conversation with insults directed at me. I will get up and walk away as I did yesterday, especially when the children are in the other room. Further, I do not wish to negotiate with you on the divorce; and such discussions should never be with the children nearby as they were yesterday. I would prefer to wait until we are in mediation with attorneys to discuss the divorce.

You have been deliberately trying to create a confrontation between yourself and me in front of the children. I can only assume your reason for doing this is with malice toward me. If you have something to discuss with me, you might consider writing me an email message instead of engaging in a hostile conversation with children nearby. I can not think of a single conversation with you since March 26 in which you did not belittle, humilate, or insult me. So, when I get up and leave the room when you begin such a conversation with an insult as you did yesterday, you now know why I will not participate.

Again, I strongly recommend to you that you seek psychiatric counseling. Dr. ******** MD psychiatrist, one of your best friends, has talked to you several times about getting help. As you know, I am seeing a psychiatrist. My doctor has assisted me in coping with your adulterous behavior; in dealing with your hostility toward me; in understanding the divorce's effects on the children; and in responding to the children's outbursts and anger. You should consider whether you would benefit from such counseling.

Overall, I agree with your email. Sending her that message is fine.

BUT...don't stoop to her use of adjectives.

The term "adulterous behavior". Well, I would agree with you, it IS adulterous. But if you're trying to get her to stop using the hostile adjectives, you need to do the same. What you're saying is "right"...but like I said, you wanna be "right" or wanna be married?

Start THINKING about what you're saying...what message you're sending with every word, with every action.

Giving it some "thought"...you'll see that she'll respond to that one phrase out of your entire email. It gives her a "chink" to focus on, rather than focusing on the actual message that you wanted her to get. If you want her to stop using hostile messages, you need to do the same thing.

Ending the conversation when/if she goes hostile is great. The conversation from yesterday hadn't gotten that far yet...you (smartly) headed it off before then. BUT...don't engage in that same behavior.

I'm sure others will tell you that using that phrase was totally valid and there was nothing wrong with it. I agree it was accurate...but in this circumstance, you deliberately threw it in there at the end of the conversation to barb her. KNOCK IT OFF

Behave with her like you want her to behave to you.

From HER perspective, your words and actions HAVE been hostile. You're angry with what she's doing, how she's hurting you. She SEES and FEELS that anger. And she's taking that as hostility aimed at HER, not just aimed at her actions.

THINK...THEN TALK.

Otherwise, just pay your lawyer to do his job and push to get that divorce sooner. Your call.

Owl, I completely agree with your post 100%; when it seems to fit what I've seen elsewhere on these MB threads. BUT, everyone talks about their wife, or wayward spouse, vascilating at least once in a while. My wife has never, NEVER, vascilated. Get this: we are still living together! Month FIVE! WHY? Why doesn't she move out? The other man is in his own house just a mile away. He's alone. I want her to move out. It kills me that she goes and f**ks him and comes home. It kills me that she says he's her soul mate and never EVER gives me anything but abuse, and she comes home.

I know I'm love busting, but it's the truth. I am coping with her adulterous behavior. It's gross, it's incredibly disrespectful, and it's violent; I feel like I'm being abused.

Update, wife tried to take our problems to a new level. She tried to fake physical abuse. It was the second time she put on an act. The first time she ran to the kids when I was talking to her about a boundary. The second time she loudly screamed, cried, clutched her chest, and then fell down. My son came running asking what happened? Calmly, I said, 'nothing happened, this is all a big show for you, your mother is emotionally disturbed.' She has no problem pulling in the kids whenever she is able. It didn't go too far, but she definitely declared nuclear war on me.

The divorce slowly plods ahead. We continue to live together in the same house. I try not to love bust, but I have no love for her anymore and I loathe the example she is setting for the children. Her influence on the children makes me more angry than anything else. It's also the cause of all altercations between us.

HWW

You need to protect yourself and carry around a digital recorder and document her faked abuse to protect yourself and to use this against her in court. This could be very damaging when custody is on the line.

Do what Jim suggests. They are at Radio Shack and will save your butt. Also, set up video camera and get one of her acts on tape and nothing she says will be believable.

I am new to MB and read your story. My heart goes out to you. I hope things are going well. Keep your head held high knowing that you are handling yourself with dignity and will always be someone your children will be able to look up to, even when it feels like the hardest thing you've ever had to do. Your children are young and regardless of their actions right now, they know in their heart you are doing what is best for them. Their mother will let them down. That is what liars do. She is feeding her need for attention.
Keep up the good work and I pray for your continued strength everyday. Good luck

Update,

Mediation has started. The wife and I are attending our first mediation session with all the players: mediator, two attorneys, she and myself. We each over the last two weeks have had sessions with the mediator by ourselves accompanied by our attorneys. The tension in our home is extremely high. Last Sunday, I had to leave when she began blowing in my face with her face only an inch away. Plan A died a long time ago. We are pushing strongly the removal of my wife from the home and she is fighting in fiercly. Despite this, she continues to see the other man. I do not love her. The best I can say is that I do not hate her, but she is evil.

Next time light matches and make her blow them out.

Mediation will likely be a waste of time. Don't get your hopes up...no matter the outcome. They will merely attempt to split the difference and get you guys to settle.

Best of luck,

Mr. Wondering

Update . . .

Well, my wife did it. She put me in jail about two weeks ago. Not only did she lie to the police, she also self-inflicted injuries to herself. So, in Michigan you're guilty until proven innocent. I'm in plan b now; HA! Two of my three children are completely alienated from me. I've taken a polygraph and passed, so I'm waiting on my vast legal team comprised of four attorneys now to counter-attack. My wife is insane.

What county are you in???

Washtenaw. I'm told it's 'open season' on men here. That came from a police officer, a probation correctional officer and my defense attorney.

Don't worry, she's just digging her own grave. You'll come out on top.

Can you file a police report against her...

For extortion or false prosecution

You may have to file it civily and you may have to await being cleared of the charges but aggressively defending yourself is important to allay any misconceptions your divorce/custody judge may have.

Innocent men FIGHT injustice. You wouldn't be the first guy that this has happened to. Judges can see through this crap if you pursue your defense vigorously. Only caution you not to appear abusive in your defense or you may yet be perceived as an abusive and controlling man that got away with one (presuming you beat the rap).

Unfortunately...I don't know any prosecutors in Washtenaw County. I will contact my cousin out there and see who he knows.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - It's not that it's "open season" on men. It's that judges are reticent towards making a mistake and letting an abusive man go and abuse further. One bad case...where an abusive husband gets out and kills his wife will RUIN their legal and judicial careers. They are cautious. Not man haters.

Mr. W.

Hi. I'm hoping we can turn the tables on her. We're going to make our case with the polygraph information to the prosecutor. It'll be up to her. You would hope the prosecutor would have no sympathy for women who game the system for their own advantage. I know this, my divorce judge is definitely disgusted with my wife's behavior and he's the chief circuit court judge for Washtenaw County.

Trust me, once you've defended yourself and cleared your name, this will completely BACKFIRE on your WW. There doesn't need to be a jury vote unanimously that she fabricated the abuse for the divorce case. All you need is one level-headed judge to see through your WW's behavior and hit her where it hurts. I know you must be going through he11 right now, but this will be a net positive in the long run. BTW, what happened to that voice activated digital recorder we told you to invest in for just these occasions?

Jim,

Man, I hope your right, but I'm into my seventh month of this sh*t, and it's miserable. The divorce judge (a male) saw through it, but the criminal judge (a female) did not; and the criminal court trumps the divorce judge, for now.

Oh, and I did get a digital recorder. I've used it, but I've underestimated the visciousness of the 'wife'. She's just plain evil. She's beyond human, and alien no longer explains her.

For the other man is say; here you go buddy. Have fun!

This is what you need to keep telling yourself. This will come back to bite her in the long run. I guess you are no longer interested in reconcilation anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't know how you ever reconcile from where I'm at. I just don't see how that's ever possible. I spent two days sleeping on a concrete floor listening to a disturbed man scream at the top off his lungs for the duration, when I was in jail.

She's evil beyond comparison, and her visciousness is unimaginable.

Update:

Today I move back into the marital home. I was awarded the house and physical custody of the kids on a temporary basis about a week ago. The wife was forced to rent a place and move out. Despite the domestic violence charge, the judge saw through my wife's lies.

I also have been allowed to release my polygraph information. Shortly after my wife made her DV charges, I took a lie detector test and passed. Because of my bond release conditions, I have been severly limited so as not to have any contact at all with the wife. These orders have allowed my wife to tell her side of the story without my side. I hope the existence of the polygraph will my friends and neighbors to think twice about my guilt.

My kids are very alienated from me. It's going to be extremely difficult today for them and me. I will have to lean on God and let time heal these wounds. I don't know whether I will share the polygraph results with them yet.

I'm a finalist for a very nice position in Seattle. I have decided that if I am offered the position, then I will take it. I will fight for the kids and move them. My position would actually be in Redmond. I really liked the Lakeland area East of Lake Washington.

Adultery is profoundly difficult and ugly. I suppose I have been on Plan B for a little over a month; although I have no interest in reconciliation. The wife is still cleaved to her lover and he is still seeing her.

I do not let myself have any fond thoughts about my wife. I force myself to detach from her and I remind myself of her affronts to me. I remind myself that my wife is as if she had passed away.

Well, sorry times have been so hard. But the fact that you are in your home and have temporary custody is GREAT!!!!!!

Personally, I would share the results of the polygraph with the kids. It is very sad what your wife is doing to them. It is very sad and sick what she is doing to the other betrayed spouse who is recovering from cancer.

Your whole situation shows a desperation that is somewhat unusual.

Good luck on the job. I'm in Seattle now, helping my mom take care of my sick father. It is really very nice. Even though it does rain a lot, it is a fun city.

Hi hww

Good news about the job possibility. As a native of wet, western Washington I can tell you that if you do get a job on the eastside, you would be best to find a place that keeps you off the two bridges for your commute. But there are lots of great towns near where you may be working. The schools over there are also very good. If you take the offer and want some insights on good areas to move to, feel free to email me.

I was a BW going through cancer treatment while my XH pursued his A. I hope and pray that the OMW has a strong support system. I did, and it made a huge difference.

I would let your kids know the truth. You may want to do it with the help of a good family counselor who specializes in divorce issues in families.

Hey believer, I hope you kept your power during the latest windstorm! I live north of Seattle now in the Skagit Valley. Thank goodness our powerlines are underground. I hope your father is okay.

Good luck hww. Hopefully you will be joining us in the beautiful Pacific Northwest.

Thank you believer and johnstwin. It's late and my day with the kids went well. It's such a tough transition on them. I am glad the three kids are so close in age. They can rely on each other a bit more as a result. I have great children.

Really great news. It's really encouraging to see a judge come through for someone...anyone here.

Only caution...it's a huge victory but still only a TEMPORARY order. How is your STBXW handling this??? If she puts up a big fight and the kids remain nuetral or adamant about not moving out of state you MAY find yourself with an uphill struggle winnng primary custody and being allowed to leave the state with the kids.

The kids are at the age where they will likely have a huge say in the matter (presuming your wife fights). Though it doesn't sound like your interested in staying here in Michigan it may behoove you to actually win custody first and then petition to move.

You see...the judge may feel he has already punished her enough for making the trumped up domestic abuse charges against you. He/she may yet prove hesitant to give you full permanent custody and allow you to leave the state. This week he slapped her down...but over the next few months he'll be concentrating on "the best interests of the kids" which will likely include SOME relationship with her...if she wants it.

Don't start packing yet.

Mr. Wondering

Update: Well my first two weeks have been good with the kids. I'm really in Plan B / D now. I had to stand up to the wife on a few matters. She tried to get the kids to disobey the custody order and have them spend the night with her. I told her I would ask for sanctions, but allowed the kids to spend one extra night with her.

I'm now getting these long emails from her. Because of the DV charge, I have to be very careful of my communications with her. Plan B also says to not communicate with her unless absolutely necessary regarding the children.

I never sent her a Plan B letter. At this point, a Plan B letter could be a problem for me under the DV case. It also feels moot.

The wife and the OM are still going strong. The OM's wife fully intends to divorce him. He apparantely started a new job in the area, but he has to make a one-way 70 minute commute every day.

Thanks everyone. I'm going to Redmond, WA in a week for an extended interview and get-to-know the area trip. I now know I'm one of two finalists.

I thought I would write an update. Everyone was so helpful on this site and I'm closing in on the end of my little story.

I had my trial and was acquitted; not guilty. The jury took less than 15 minutes to find me not guilty. It was as close to vindication as I could get.

I was offered the position in Redmond and I've accepted it. I'm heading out to Seattle next week for the annual meeting. I've secured a condo in Bellevue and will start full time.

My kids are really hurt. No question, divorce is really really hard on kids. I'm comfortable with the path I've taken from the standpoint of the kids. The STBXW is a really ugly human being shacked up with an equally ugly human being. The kids may decide that she's not the person they want to live with and will move to Seattle. At that time, I will be in a much better position to take care of them. Some of you may disagree with this decision, but I know it was the best decision for my kids and me.