It is a little spooky. But, my take is the OM is moving and moving out of town. I'm trying to find out. If he does move, then my wife should start to show signs of withdrawl, right?

I was wondering whether I was starting to see some signs of depression two nights ago.

HWW

Not if she keeps in contact with him. Also, in her wayward state of mind, she might try and find OM#2.

Jim,

Not very optimistic:


You are right about continued contact and possibly finding another man. I'm not sure what else I can do.

Dr. Harley has this to say:


I found this discussion helpful. It's under 'Basic Needs - Three States of Mind in Marriage'. At the very least, it helps me to stay cool when my wife is really going after me.

I know you all don't think I should be educating my wife, but the POJA is an important tool during this process.

From the way you describe the 14 days comment. OM moving MAY, in fact, be the case. He supposedly ended the affair. He left his job and filed for divorce. Your wife filed the same day to try to add karma and destiny to the mix and her efforts are/have failed to get OM to reconsider. He is moving on.

This also explains her audience with you. Her apprehension and upset about the divorce situation. Her despair. It's not your reactions to her filing. It's not what your attorney did or didn't do. It's her addiction fantasy not coming to fruition.

Something to consider, to find out what is going on and to try and nip the continued contact with OM scenario in the bud is to have a frank discussion with OM. Don't rush off and do it until it's been hashed out but perhaps HE can be convinced to go to NO CONTACT himself. A kind of "if you care about WW at all and are truly moving on...then NC is the only way that her and I can ever look to rebuild our marriage". Appeal to his honor (which although you know is lacking, MAY move him to do the right thing. He MAY just do it as men that are breaking up with a woman love a convenient excuse not to have to deal with the fallout of a broken hearted woman.

Just an idea to ponder.

MR. W

Mr.W.,

Really, really interesting thought: talking to the OM. I suppose I should wait and see what the 14 days is all about, right?

Until then, I suppose I should just enjoy the day; let her reach out to talk, if she wants. Not make to many 'sweet gestures'.

Did you see my above post on the States of Mind? I'm wondering if this conflict is a good thing; as long as I can hold it together without going off on her? What did you think about that?

hww, I asked Steve about POJA once while my W was really "in the fog" and he said that one person can do their half of POJA even if the other isn't onboard. I think that would be better than 'educating' her; just try to lead by example. I think you are handling yourself extremely well.

Mr.W,

On the other hand, Dr. Harley also makes the above the quote. This particular quote fits my situation and has haunted me since the first time I read it.

It's a tough, tough situation. The kids will be the tiping point for me; that's my hope at the moment.

normalguy,

Thanks. I really appreciate the insight. I'll keep trying to POJA her; and thank you for the compliment. The support here is great.

normalguy, tell me your story? I see you've recently been dealing with a wayward wife in an EA. Looks like it took you some time to establish no contact. That must have been very grueling like what I'm experiencing.


HWW

I don't have much time but I can give you the shorthand version:
Marriage began terrific. Over time it remained great for me but after many years passed I un-knowingly begain neglecting my wifes ENs (reading HNHN was very eye-opening for me!) About 10 years into our marriage W was really feeling trapped. Had one D-Day when I caught her texting another man. Seemingly dropped him immediately and I began trying hard to repair the marriage but we didn't get counselling and she was still not really onboard. She maintained a secret email account. About 6mo later on a trip to her parents she met someone in a bar and started another EA with him. Caught this after another 6mo passed and we went to counselling with MB and it seemed to really help. We started to reconnect, spent tons of time with each other met ENs like crazy, went on a dream vacation and had a great time but still, W was not "right". Turns out our neighbor had a work schedule that had him home during weekdays and he and my wife were developing a friendship. Well you guessed it, it developed into an EA and then a PA.

For me, each D-Day resulted in immediate dropping of OM but not really a restoration of the marriage. Right now I am doing everything according to MB principals to rebuild the marriage again but I fully realize that it takes both of us to do that.

Mr W. tried to help me way back too and I didn't always follow his advice; for example it took me a while to actually decide to snoop. He was right on; listen to him.

I think you are doing fantastic though. You cannot control the outcome, you cannot educate them, you cannot keep them from doing what they're going to do. You can't even really snoop enough to prevent an A from happening but once it happens you can find out. But, following the principals and treating yourself with respect and dignity is what will carry you through this. In fact I think it is what will win her back to you more than "trying to be nice". I worked *HARD* at being nice but I did not do a very good job of standing up for myself until the last D-Day. Never again will I let myself be treated that way even if it means I have to be divorced.

One book that helped me a lot was "Love must be Tough".

By the way, since D-Day which actually was over 7 months ago now, there has been NC, my wife has been treating me extremely well, she has improved her own life a lot by doing things such as getting a new job and completing her college degree, we have moved to a new house, the kids behavior and attitudes have greatly improved (even getting straight As now). W tells me often that she is going to take care of us, that she is going to protect me, etc.

We are still in recovery and still have very tough days. But at least we're in recovery now.

I think you are doing the absolute best you can in a terrible situation that is not your fault hww. Thats all any of us can do. Be proud of yourself.

normalguy,

Wow, you must be a strong person. I am impressed with how long you have been working on your marriage. Boy, it's scary to think of the endurance one might have to muster to get through these times.

HWW

It can be scary, but take one day at a time!!! Trying to handle the thoughts of EVERYTHING that must be done, will wear you down....One day at a time....then you get stronger, build more self-value, then you can start thinking in longer periods of time....etc....
God Bless
MWIL

KatieMae,

Wife did sleep in the same bed with me again. I brought up the situation with her this morning. I said, 'it is confusing for the children for us to be sleeping together. I don't think we should be sleeping in the same bed.'

She asked me to go to another bed. I said 'no', that since she was seeking divorce, then she should go to another bed. We POJA for a bit and decided that we were at an impasse. So, I guess we're going to keep sleeping together for the time being.

Also, we POJA on who does the laundry. She complained that I was not doing the laundry right. I asked her to teach me. She said it was annoying. I said I was doing it because I wanted to relieve some of the burden she faced on the weekend. We brainstormed a bit and decided I would continue to wash the 'easy' stuff and she would wash the rest. She thanked me. I thought that went well.

Earlier I asked, 'do you want to work on cleaning the porch together'. She said, 'not with you, but I'll do it myself.' I didn't say anything, but later she commented that I had this puppy dog look. Then she commented about how I had previously told her I didn't want to see or speak to her again. I was referring to post-divorce (I'm also thinking Plan B without telling her), but she's manipulated it to me now. I haven't handled this boundary / declaration well. I thought this did not go well. I really need to not give any 'puppy dog' hints or looks. Any advice?

HWW,

A boundary is a personal stance that is self-protecting and non-negotiable. I'm not sure it was a good idea to POJAing sleeping in the same bed. What message does that send your children? You need to set a boundary... "you wanted a divorce, and this is not emotionally healthy for the children. If we are working on the marriage, then we can sleep in the same bed. But since we are not, you will have to find somewhere else to sleep. I'm sorry, please think of the kids." Can you reconsider talking to her about this?

As far as the porch thing goes, this is just WW manipulative fog talk. Don't worry about it. You don't have to worry about the "no talk" boundary until you are actually divorced and she is out of the house. For now, ignore these manipulations used to suck you into an alien discussion... they will just make you crazy.

I think that eventhough you had a puppy dog face, it's okay. Next time you ask her to join you with something, expect that she will say no so you are not disappointed. Or don't invite her to help you at all. I know this is very hard, but try only to think of yourself at this point. Focusing on you, the kids and the house without her will actually make you seem more appealing to her.

Oh, and the laundry thing is typical fog talk: "you don't do anything around the house because I've never told you how important it is to me, and now that you're doing it, you can't even get it right." I'm glad you were able to work out a compromise, however, and it's something you both feel good about.

What are your plans for the rest of the afternoon today? Maybe you should take your kids out for ice cream. Ask them first, and if they say yes, ask your W. "the kids and I are going out for ice cream... wanna come?" She probably won't, so don't be disappointed. Be happy, keep it light, and have a good time with your children.

KM

KM,

I can reconsider. I can also sleep in the bed she was sleeping in, but then she gets her way. Every time I give into her, she loses respect for me and things get worse. I've talked to the kids about why mommy is sleeping wih daddy. The kids seemed 'ok' with the explanation, which was as follow:

'Mommy's back is hurting her, so she's sleeping in the good bed. Daddy hasn't moved, because there isn't a good place to move to; mommy uses the small guest room to change, and mommy would wake daddy up in the mornings and daddy isn't going to sleep in the attic guest room because mommy has made it the 'cave'.'

Did a little light shine through tonight? I was caught a little off guard, and I wasn't real prepared with a good talking point. Finally, my wife has started talking to some of our mutual married girl friends, which is so good. It's another indication of how the OM is not talking to her much anymore. I've been telling my friends that it's important to shine light on the affair and if I have any hope convince my wife to never see or talk to the OM again.

Then tonight my wife asked about my mother. We talked a bit about how things were with my parents. She mentioned how she wished she could stop by, but commented how my family absolutely hated her now. I was a little surprised and unprepared, but I said to her, 'sure they are angry, but they still love you. That's how families work. Besides, the only thing that matters at the end of the day is me.'

I don't know. It seemed like a moment when the fog was a little less dense and some new thoughts had begun to creep into her head. What do I do we these kinds of comments? When she seems to be thinking of other options for the first time? What's the best way to respond?

HWW

P.s. We were at a neighbor's party, and I thought I was looking particularly good tonight. Caught my wife looking at me a couple of times.

KatieMae,

Regarding personal boundary and the master bedroom; the wife slept in the other room. I didn't have to bring up the topic again.

I just received a new filing from my attorney addressed to my wife. It's called an interrogatory. It is essentially a subpoena / deposition rolled up in one document. It requests lots of information and asks lots of questions. Since it is filed with the court, failure to answer the questions truthfully is perjury.

The most interesting questions come at the end and are questions regarding the affair and or affairs. The wife will feel even more pressure when she reads this document.

KatieMae, What do I do when my wife says something reasonably rational? As if the fog lifted just a bit. What do I do, like yesterday, when my wife asks me questions related to how working out the marriage might work? Her question yesterday expressed her concern regarding how she thought everyone on my side of the family hated her.

HWW,

How would you like the M to work? If you have a plan, tell her. She should know what you want, plain and simple. I would suggest:

She write a no contact letter to OM with your approval before she mails it.

Marriage counseling, and if you could do it with the Harley's that would be fabulous. Just make sure and get a PRO M counselor. My H and I's first MC was pro-divorce, our second one was pro-M. She was wonderful... she saved us.

She must do what you ask to make you feel safe, whatever that is. Mabye you need her to surrender her cell phone or whatever. Have you done much snooping? Snooping is KEY to recovery. Even after I had promised my H I would stop talking to OM (and I really, really meant it) something would happen, I would lose control, and talk to him. This happened twice, and H found out because he discovered it. If he hadn't... and hadn't made me accountable for it... we never would have recovered.

What did you tell your W regarding your family? Let her know that if she really wants to work on the M, and your family sees that she is seeking forgiveness, they will eventually come around. It's amazing... I worried about the same thing. What will other people think of me? Never mind the person whose heart I just ripped out, what about my sister-in-law? Sick, sick, sick.

So... do you have a plan for marital recovery? What did you tell your W when she asked you?

HWW,

Assuming the A is over, right now is critical for you. I would plan A my butt off. Usually the WW will not go through with the divorce if the A is over. Now you need to be her lighthouse and guide her way back home. Make yourself a safe place for her to crash. Don't start any discussion about boundaries, but just enforce them if she does cross them. If she wants to sleep in your bed, as long is she isn't actively having an affair, I would let her. Show her that you won't hold this A over her head forever if she decides to work on the marriage. Make yourself as appealing as possible. When she complains or gets upset about something pertaining to the divorce, just tell her that you lawyer handles that, it is out of your hands, and you aren't discussing it. If you continue to plan A, she has NC with OM, and she gets through withdrawal, I doubt she'll go through with the divorce. It already sounds like she is having second thoughts, but right now she thinks there is no going back after what she has done. Let her know (in subtle ways with kindness, not by talking to her about it) that isn't the case.

One the other hand, continue to snoop, and if there is contact with the OM, enforce your boundaries and proceed to plan B.

Well everyone - - caught my wife talking to the OM on the cell phone. The affair is still on. You know, if it wasn't for MB, I would have absolutely lost it. But, in the back of my mind I really knew I was being fed fog babble. Maybe there was a very brief moment of reality because she hadn't or couldn't talk to the OM for a while, but it was at best short lived and at worst a diversion.

Today, I was even starting to feel sorry for her. Can you believe it? Again, if it wasn't for MB, I would have let my guard down. I now know that when the affair is really, really over, I'll know and it will be plain as day. Thank goodness for MB and I need to keep the pressure up.

I talked to the wife a bit and found out that the OM is still working at the company and the 14 day comment was regarding his last day. The wife even made it sound like he might actually be able to stay on a bit more.

Upon finding her talking to the OM, I figured there wasn't much use trying to educate her on anything except, 'don't try to tell me the OM doesn't matter in this divorce'; and finally, 'I want to meet your emotional needs. If you want to work on the marriage, then I'm prepared to learn what your needs are and work on meeting them.'

Man, I have got to be careful.

KM,
Thank you for the post, but I guess it's moot for now. I'll tuck it away for later.

I did speak to her about the family. I said the family still loves her although they are angry now. But, that's what families do, they get angry at each other from time to time, forgive and never loose love for one another.

HWW