No R talk to a WS. Just your H.

I would even hold back on the ILYs for now. Present you and your family as 1 package.

L.

That's great, so he has a pretty good idea what the carrot looks like. And it seems he trusts you that the relationship will be OK when he comes back.

The other side of this may be that he thinks he has time...time to change...time to have fun, tarnsy will wait for him...

Be honest with him that you will only hold out as long as your love lasts, and you feel it slipping away every day, and every interaction...so when Plan B starts he knows what is going on, and *hopefully* will feel pressure to make a decision...

That's true. I guess you can't change it then. Did you try going back to your very 1st post and changing it? (Not the most recent one.)

Thanx everyone for your advice, suggestions and support.

Theres lots here for me to think about and digest but got to go and spend some time with DD's while they here as I won't see much of them over the weekend. At least I'll have some time to go over all the information here!

Will probably post over the weekend and thanx everyone again, I don't know if I'd have got this far without everyones help.

Morn' Tarnsy,

How r u doing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hi Orchid,

Not bad thx for asking.

Saw WH yesterday when he came to pick up DD's and altho he stayed for a couple of hours didn't get much chance to talk as he was watching the Grand Prix. This used to be a huge problem in our M as he would never go anywhere with us when the GP was on which is every other weekend for about 6 or 7 months of the year. I used to LB all over the place about this as I always thought weekends were for family but WH wanted to stay at home in front of the TV.

Yesterday, as on a few other occasions over the last few months, I watched with him and asked questions and generally showed an interest. Hopefully, I scored a few points for this as we were getting along fine.

I asked WH if he had any plans to come and pick up his belongings as everything including most of his clothes are still here. He said that he didn't want to upset anyone by taking them!! I offered to bag them up but he said to let him go though them first. I said "so this sitch is permanent then?" to which he replied "the sitch is the sitch". I asked where he saw himself in 5 years and he said "I don't look that far ahead". Apparently, he only looks 1 week ahead!

I decided to drop the subject as H was turning into WH before my eyes! As he left after dropping off DD's he commented that he is getting fat, I told him that there is just more of him to love. He turned and said "aah" and then proceeded to keep looking at me as he walked away and got into his car.

Today was not so good. WH didn't turn up till nearly 3 to take DD8 to a party (according to our schedule he has them from 11) as he was watching, yes you've guessed it, the Grand Prix. He had told me he wouldn't come till then and I didn't say anything about it but I did expect him to make up for it by taking DD's out later. Of course he didn't. WH brought DD8 back just after 5 and said "I'll just have a few minutes with DD13".

I was not pleased but tried to keep a lid on it. Asked him if he wanted a drink and took it to him in DD's bedroom. Asked WH why he couldn't take DD's out to which he stated that there was nowhere to take them. I listed off some places we used to go as a family but apparently these were not satisfactory. Wh said "this is supposed to be my weekend to have them but you won't let me have them at the house", I replied "you know why I won't let them go to HER house and I'm not going to change my mind".

DD13 then said "why can't we go if OW is not there?" but just restated that I don't think it's right that DD's go to a complete strangers house. She then said "but it's dads house" which hurt me but I calmly stated that this was dads house and it's wrong for M men or women to live with OP.

More was said along the same lines but I removed myself before I got angry or upset. I am upset with WH that he couldn't make more of an effort to take DD's out as he knows that I don't have a car so they are missing out on all the trips we used to take as a family during the summer. I guess it's another example of the W's selfishness and I shouldn't really be surprised.

Tarnsy

Sent this to WH last night:

"I don't want to fight with you.

I'm upset that you didn't make more of an effort to spend time with our daughters today.

I was already a little cross with you that you had let the GP get in the way of the time you have to spend with the girls but I accept that this is important to you and nothing I say will change that. But then you came back and said you'd just a have a few minutes with DD13. This is not fair on them.

I know you see me as "the bad guy" because I won't let them stay at her house but we've been over this several times and I've already said today how I feel about that so I'm not going to repeat myself. I will say though, that I am as stubborn as you are (as you are probably aware!) and I'm not going to change my stance on this.

If you refer back to the schedule I sent you, you will see that you are supposed to have them from 11 - 8 on saturdays and 11-5 on sundays. As it's the school holidays you could have them later but you don't even seem to want to spend this much time with them. Don't you think they've suffered enough already? You know that I have no means of transport to take them to the sort of places they want to go. You do but you don't make the effort.

I was already upset today, as I told you as today was the sort of day that we would have gone out somewhere nice, probably with a picnic, had a nice walk somewhere and then maybe would have come home to one of your delicious barbecues and a glass of Pimms, or gone to the B***** for a meal and a glass or two and watched the girls as they played. These are the times that I miss so much and resent you for leaving because it means I'll never have those times again. You still can take the girls out but you don't, I can't and would do anything to do so again. I miss the "normal" stuff of being a family with you so much. It's not fair.

I'm asking you, please make the time to make plans for the time you have with our daughters. They've missed out on so much not having their dad around all the time, they don't have access to a car to take them to places that they consider fun. I've promised to take them to F***** on the train and to S****** on the bus but as I don't have a car it's hard to find things to amuse them. We've done the museums and mansions to death and DD13's not interested in going to the park or **** madhouse, so although I can take DD8 to these places, DD13 misses out. Please try to arrange something fun they can do with you."

Got this reply:

"We don’t need to fight over anything Tarnsy.

That would solve nothing but we do need to sort this out.

I know you say you will not change your mind and I can say nothing that will change it, but change it must.

I can not keep the girls ‘out’ for all that time without it costing me a mint. As you know I still pay everything for the home for you and the girls to ask me to find £50-100 every other weekend to entertain the girls is just too much. I have not got the money to do that.

If I stop paying out so much money to you and the house I could maybe do it. But it finding things to do and places to go.

I need to have them for the whole weekend so we have a base to work from, they don’t wont to go out each and every time they see me. They want to have dad cook for them for a start and I cant do this if they cant stay.

You know you have no legal right to do what you are doing and any court would tell you that.

We don’t have to go down that road; it is too messy and will cost too much money.

No one is trying to replace their mum that is something no one will ever do. But we all have to move on the next phase Tarnsy; you are not getting any time for your self under these conditions, that’s not fair on you either. You started going out a few months ago, but now your cant as you have to be there for when I drop the girls off. If you have the chance to go out, who is going to sit the girls?

Just give them the chance to decide, they both want to stay with me, they don’t have to like the OW, that’s fine I don’t have a problem with that, but me and the girls need good quality time together and running around in car is not that.

Please, please reconsider Tarnsy".

I'm thinking of telling him to start divorce proceedings if he wants to move on to the "next phase" but don't know if this is just my gut reaction. Help please!

Well, I told WH to start D proceedings, told him it was not what I wanted but if he truly wants me to move to the next phase then he should just get on with it.

Received this in reply:

"No one said anything about divorce! I have never said that. You told me months ago you can divorce me for adultery, which I have to except.

Divorce is too expensive for both of us and is very final.

All we need do is set some rules that both of us are happy with Tarnsy. One being the girls and the other is our monies.

As it stands we’re both unhappy. You because I don’t come back home and me wanting the girls to stay over with me. And me because I cant have the girls stay with me and me not being at home costing me £*** plus a month, plus the extra money I have to find to entertain the girls.

Why don’t we just give it a bash, the girls staying I mean, if they hate it then I will have to deal with it. But we have to give them the chance to make their own minds up.

Once we know how much money you will be receiving we can work out how much I will pay to you. This with a bit of part time work once the girls are back to school and you are 100% healed from your opp with working tax credits will be a nice sum of money.

I know you still love me Tarnsy, I can see it every time you look at me. I think the world of you and I do enjoy what little time we have together, albeit a cup of tea in the kitchen. You are easier to talk to now then I can ever remember. I have never hated you and never will, I do understand your motives and I know you mean well by standing by your convictions, but I don’t have to agree with them.

Please can I just have the girls for the whole weekend next time its my turn and lets see how it goes."

There is more, will post later, am now waiting for my intermediaries to come back from their holiday so that I can go to plan B.

why are you not in plan B Tarnsy?

H&P,

Had to have surgery so decided to wait til I was recovered enough to be able to keep myself busy during the 1st days of what will likely be an emotional time and my intermediaries are on holiday. So until they are back I am stuck.

Okay...You just seem like a prime candidate for plan B and it sounds as if you already have it planned. I hope you are doing well physically!

More email interaction! My reply to WH:

"For one thing, DD8 does not want to go to her house whether she is there or not. You have to accept that.

You do not have to spend huge amounts of money at the weekend. We managed to entertain them over the years on little money so I know it can be done. I still have to find cheap or free things for us to do.

I am sorting out the benefit issue. If you can get the mortgage docs faxed to you this would help me greatly.

I will be working once my leg is better and the girls are in school. You don't have to tell me.

I have several nights planned to go out and a few people who have offered to babysit so you don't have to worry about me not having time for me.

I can't take the pain anymore. Knowing that you love someone else tears me apart and every time I see you it just gets worse. You say a divorce is very final but if you don't see yourself ever loving me again, wouldn't it be for the best? I've already said that it's not what I want, you know that I would love for us to be a family again but none of this has been about what I want. You've had everything your own way so far and you've been allowed to get away with it with no thought for the consequences of your actions on those who you supposedly loved.

I can't take it anymore, I need for this to end and if that means never seeing you again then that it was I will have to do."

I know I was probably a bit emotional in the last couple of paragraphs but I figured it was about time he heard about my feelings.

Here's his reply:

"You will have to see me Tarnsy, we have two children together.

You seem to have forgotten how we got into this in the first place. I know its both our faults, no one person is to blame.

The law says you cant do what you want with regards to the girls and where they go and who they see. I don’t want to have to involve the law Tarnsy. It seems that our little DD8 is some what confused! She is telling you one thing and me another, we cant expect anymore form her she is only 8.

She tells you what you want to hear and the same for me.

I don’t want to fall out with you Tarnsy, so please lets get it sorted and me not having the girls stay over needs to change."

There's yet more to come but as I've had no response here I've just replied to the best of my limited knowledge.

Don't debate him or try to educate him at this point it is impossible to do.

Let your attorney tell him what is legal, expected, etc and don't debate that with him either. Did he suddenly go to law school overnight and determine that he knows what he can and can't do with regards to your DD? I don't think so.

Do you have an attorney or any sore of LSA, emergency order regarding custody, child support, alimony, et al? If not why not?

I did see a solicitor back in Feb but at the end of May WH ended A and was going to come home. This lasted all of 10 days!

We are not legally seperated. WH has not fought over custody, in fact it has not been mentioned. Our only bone of contention is our DD's staying at OW house which is where WH lives. As for money, he has paid all bills for the home which is considerably more than my solicitor said I would be entitled to. In the next few weeks he will reduce the amount he pays as I will be getting money from social security until I am able to go back to work. It would still be an amount more than I would get through the court system.

I don't think that WH will be one of those W's that cause financial problems for his family but if he does then I will have no hesitation in going back to my solicitor.

DD8 told me yesterday that WH had asked both DD's again if they wanted to meet OW to which they both replied no! Bless them! WH emailed to tell me this and to say that we are at an "impass". Replied back "what did you expect?".

Here is his reply:

"I expected to get on with it like the 100’s of thousands of people all over the world do.

From what I can see our situation seems to be different to all I have seen and know about.

The girls have changed their minds because back in Jan/feb they where of a different opinion, that being if mum said yes they would, now they are saying no!

I can only guess that you and maybe a few other ppl have changed their minds for them. Saying what, I can only guess.

If this is a strategy of yours to win me over then I am afraid it may well back fire. I feel like I am being cornered.

You did not ask me to go Tarnsy I know that (apart from the times when you did not mean it!), but in the same breath you didn’t do a lot to make me want to stay either.

You have admitted as much your self. I know and understand that you want me to suffer for my actions by preventing the girls from staying with me.

But what are we going to do if and when you meet some one else?

Am I going to have the same rights as you and dictate to you who and what and how you can behave with our children? Who they can meet and who can stay at the house I pay for?

You need to think long and hard Tarnsy, because I can tell you now I will react the same as you if things stay as they are. He will not be allowed in the house at all, ever! or meet the girls, over my dead body to coin your phrase.

So we can go forward feeling like we do or change. You know only to well, better then anyone else alive that I can be a stubborn bast*rd.

To say I have deserted is bit over the top too. Moved out yes but desert no. If I had done that I would have completely turned my back on you and the girls but I have not done that.

Apart from me not being in the house, not a lot has changed. I continue to pay for the house and all its bills, plus all the loans and cards which is our debt not just mine, including the overdraft.

I am not a bast*rd and never will be, you know that much.

And now you are telling to finish my relationship if I want things to change. Your ok for me to do that and go and meet some one else for you to do the same?"

To me, the tone of his email was aggressive and trying to get me to argue with him so I did my best not to fall into this trap:

"Our sitch is different. Everyones is in it's own way.

From my POV, the girls have not changed their minds. They always said to me that they did not want to meet the person who had taken their daddy away. No one has tried to convince them otherwise.

This is not a strategy to win you over. As I've stated before, it is to protect our daughters from any more trauma. I am not trying to corner you. "It may well backfire" - can you clarify this please, it sounds like a threat.

No, I didn't do a lot to make you want to stay but as you have said yourself, I am different now and I believe I have shown you just how much I love you. If I was still the same person I was then, we would be divorced by now and the last few months would have been filled with fights not the friendly chats that we have had.

I am not trying to make you suffer. This is not about you. It's about our daughters and what they want. You ignored their feelings when you left and now you seem to continue to do the same by continuously asking them to meet OW when they have already said they don't want to..

I have no intentions of meeting someone else. I am married to you. I take my vows seriously. If and when we divorce then I shall be free to find another man if I so desire, but until then I see myself as a married woman.

Yes, I know how stubborn you are. I think that is part of the reason that you won't come home. You've made a decision and you're going to stick with it. Well, you know how stubborn I can be too. I made a decision the day I married you, to forsake all others, for better for worse, til death us do part, I'm sticking to that.

You have deserted us ******. Not financially, but emotionally and physically. You are not here to keep us safe, to protect us, to love us. There is always a WH shaped space in everything we do. You're not at the dinner table, you're not here to wind us up, to tickle us or make us laugh. You don't walk through the door at 6 o'clock, you don't eat with us, you don't sit at the computer, you're not here to play with the girls before bed, you're not here at 9 o'clock for a cup of tea, you're not here to lock the doors and you're not here to go to sleep with. You're just not here.

I have not said you are a bast*rd. I don't like what you've done and I don't have to agree with it and I certainly don't have to help legitimize it. I am not telling you to end your "relationship" but if you want your daughters to spend time in a "home" environment then you need to rethink your living arrangements. No one is forcing you to do anything, you've already proved that you only do what you want to do, but if you're not going to do that then you have to accept that you will never cook for them, watch a dvd or any of the other "normal" stuff that dads who live with their children get to do. You knew this when you chose to move in with her so you can't complain about it now.

And I don't want you to find someone else either. Why would I want that? All I want is for you to know how much I love you and that marriages can and do recover from these tragedies.

I believe I have covered all the points in your email. I am not fighting you, I am just standing up for our children and our marriage, after all, if I don't who will?"

Feel free to tell me where I may have gone wrong with my reply so that I can avoid those pitfalls in any other contact we may have before I enter plan B.

Many thanks

Your email is fine.

Slays me how a WS can have an A, leave their family, not be there for them because the OP needs them for something, and insist that they haven't "abandoned" their family.

Suggested insert for an email to your H:

"If, 15 years or so from now, our D's have a lover move in with them without first being married, will you be disappointed?

What if their lover is a married man?

What if he has children he left behind?

Would you welcome that man into your life?

We are modeling behavior for our children. Do you want to model cheating and infidelity as an ideal?

Think 15 years or more into the future. Imagine our daughters married, with children. You are their role model for the man in their lives. Will they gravitate toward a man who can commit and stick through rough times? Or will they chose a guy who will leave them and their children.

Imagine that they chose the guy who leaves. Imagine that he moves in with a new woman. Do you want to encourage your grandchildren to spend time with their Daddy's live in honey? Or would you stand behind our girls, and protect them from that kind of immoral behavior."

On the off chance that is too short, how about adding:

"Let's consider that there is nothing wrong with the behavior you are modeling. Let's consider that I agree not to insist that our girls see you away from your ladyfriend. What will they learn?

Suppose in 15 or more years, they learn that it is fine to leave their husbands and children because their men were less than ideal. They move out and into the apartment of a perfect other guy. Your grandbabies are now spending the night in the place of the man who is not their Daddy. That becomes normal for them.

WH, it is easier to be a good influence for our girls if we are doing the right thing. I want them to be good, moral and ethical. I want them to fight for their marriages, for their families. I want them to be faithful. I want them to learn from me that you don't just give in because it is easier than doing the right thing. Don't you want them to be good, moral and strong?

Don't you want them to keep their own families together? Don't you want them to resist being a live-in bedwarmer for some guy who is married to another woman?

Anyway, think about it."

Feel free to reject my suggestion or to plagiarize or cannibalize anything I posted. Good luck.

Thx for replying Bellevue, was beginning to feel a little alone here!

I agree with what you have said but wonder that WH is still too far in the fog to be able to hear and comprehend this without getting angry. I have asked him before what lessons he thinks DD's will learn from him but he ignored the question.

Would this not be trying to educate him as I've been told that that is something I shouldn't do?

Tarnsy,

I haven't chimed in on your thread, yet, but have been following it. I think one, very important question for your WH next time he says "Who's talking about divorce?", is why in the world would he thinks you shouldn't be talking divorce. He is living with another woman to whom he wants to introduce your DD's - does he think he can just continue forever living with someone else while still having a wife?

Regards,

BB

Tarnsy,

Let's make it simple for the stupid WS.

1. $$ - if $$ is a problem, go get it from the OW. I don't want to hear about your lack of $$. Get a 2nd job, borrow from the OW..... you already lost your pants to her....what's a few bucks.... I mean didn't you step up in life and get someone who will cover you financially? Why is this a problem for which our family must suffer?

2. Children not wanting to see or be near the OW or her home. - Can't make it more clear than that. Do you want a neutral 3rd party to tell you the same thing? You can't believe your children or your W, that can be arranged.

3. Divorce is final - This is a result of you living with an OW and having an affair.

4. Financial obligations - The law stipulates the minimum. If you are only going to meet the minimum, then do so before the law forces you to. If you choose to do more than the minimum, our family would be grateful but not indebited because you owe that to us.

5. Father - you will always be the children's father. How good or bad of a father you choose to be is up to you. These children are already forming their own opinions of you based on action and words YOU are showing them. Stop trying to play mind games with our children. They are smarter than you realize.


6. Friends - Well when someone betrays a family, it is hard to remain friends with that person. You have betrayed our family and currently not interested in correcting your error. As a result, being friends with you is not possible. As long as you remain as a WS (wayward spouse) you are not a friend of this family. You are a relative and have financial obligations but you are not a friend. Neither is the OW. So keep your affair related friends away from my family.

7. I realize this is hard to read and digest. When you find my real husband, let him know his family would like him back but the WS can stay out there and rot.

Ok, that's my straight shootin' version. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> This is also pre-plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Btw, I did similar to what I listed above. I put the babble back in perspective and shot it back to the WS. It threw him for a loop. Hope it does yours also.... he got angry a bit but I stood my ground. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


L.

tarnsy, your thoughts are exactly what I came up with when I re-read my post just now, I often shoot from the hip & think afterward.

He isn't thinking with his big head at the moment. The fog has all the blood rushing to another organ ....

I guess my post was an exercise in writing. The focus now should be on how to follow Plan A, and not get drawn into arguments with a man with so little blood in his brain.

Yes, the kind of thoughts I put in the post ARE trying to educate. He really isn't able to take that stuff in.