He is rationalizing, manipulating, distracting, threatening, and normalizing...don't get caught in the battle over the details. He is playing every game in the book...don't get caught in an email battle of words. Don't acknowledge HALF or more of what he says...it's just words...

What I would answer?

"I love you, I hate that we working out when to split up the girls, this is hard on me, hard on the girls, and I'll bet hard on you.

Lets make plans for this weekend...if you want...all of us together? If not, how about just the two of us?"

Keep your interaction off the written page unless it's going to be about how googly eye you are over him...this haggling going on is just putting coffin nails in the R...he knows it, is looking for an excuse to get you mad so he can say..."See, I was right!..."

Plan A or Plan B...which is it going to be?

This middle ground is where I've seen many a soul fall into, and it's not a good place to be, and if it continues for very long, does not have a good outcome...

Show him how an R will be like if he returns...negotiating and arguing over everything? Or will you be able to get off a hot topic and have some fun sometimes?

'course he can. If he joins the polygymous faiths. Those women are used to being part of a harem.

Orchid is right on!

Thanx to everyone for taking the time to reply.

Have successfully managed to avoid email contact with WH today as I took DD's out for the day.

Did TM him to let him know that a neighbour had been wheel clamped in our road as I knew he would find it amusing as she was always parking on the double yellows.

BB, thanxs for chiming in, I could use all the help I can get! Have asked WH previously if he thinks it's right to stay married to me whilst he lives with OW. It was another of those questions that he chose to ignore!

Orchid, completely agree with everything you said but worry that if I say these things to WH just before plan B it will override the memories of my plan A. Should I resend my reply to his last email with these points added?

Bellevue, please continue to give me your thoughts, perhaps one day WH will be sufficiently out of the fog to be able to take on board all this wonderful advice and common sense and not see it as an attack!

Still, I am in the final days of plan A, plan B will happen when my intermediaries return from their holiday otherwise I would probably be in it by now! So I can see that the lines may be blurred somewhat.

I have deliberately avoided getting into arguements with WH as this was a problem in our M. We are both stubborn and do not like to backdown from a fight (never physical) so I have tried to show this change in me to WH through my actions. Perhaps I need some more help with this.

I like the idea of asking for us all to go out but fear that it would be painful for me to do the sort of family things that we always used to do. And I really don't think he'd go for just the 2 of us going out, I think he'd see that as giving me false hope.

Thanx H&P for keeping up with my sitch!

>I have deliberately avoided getting into arguements with WH as this was a problem in our M. We are both stubborn and do not like to backdown from a fight (never physical) so I have tried to show this change in me to WH through my actions. Perhaps I need some more help with this.

____________________________________

It's funny you should mention this, because this is something I have been working on very recently...
I will argue a point until my H gives in...he has since learned to not argue at all, which makes for some very lopsided decsion making in the household.

OK, so big change has occured lately (not without help) it has been recommended I basically DON'T argue about most things...(how to know what to argue about, and what not to? Most things don't matter) And to CONSTANTLY look at the other side of things, to argue against myself ALWAYS...at least at first, now I let most things go, it's not an argument...

I wish I had a good example of what I'm talking about, but every one of them I find I still get my way. I guess the examples I couldn't really talk about are the ones that go on in my head, where I just let so much go...and my H seems to be very OK with this and participating more...

Tarnsy,

Plan A is for you and about you. So how he acts or reacts is NOT the decision making factor here.

The purpose of the points in my last post was so he is aware you are NOT playing his games. WS' love to lure the BS into more pain and hurt. It is a sick game. The more you feed it the more it will grow.

This way when you enter plan B (for your sanity), you won't have to reiterate your stance. It will make entering plan B easier. IMHO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The one thing you do NOT want is for him to think your plan B is weak and meant t/b broken. It isn't and he needs to know that you are above his A antics. You want your H back NOT the WS.

I remember that I got to the point where I told my then WS that he needed to check WS at the CURB....yep, not the front door but out on the street! Why? Because I refused to have a WS in my home. It took a while to figure out I could do that but once I did, I felt empowered and was able to have the control I needed. Oh yea..... a BS having control is NOT a bad thing so the WS can kiss that excuse good bye. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Here is my email to WH. Haven't sent it yet so feel free to suggest any changes.

Do I take it from this that you want me to start divorce proceedings?

"No one said anything about divorce! I have never said that. You told me months ago you can divorce me for adultery, which I have to except
Divorce is too expensive for both of us and is very final"

Your finances are not my problem (thought OW would be only too glad to help you in this department!) and yes it would be final. This is the result of you having an affair and living with OW.

I believe that your original question re the girls staying at OW's house was on the understanding that she would not be there. Having read through the emails over the last few days it seems that this was not true. You said:

"I asked the girls last night what they wanted and it appears they are of the same opinion, that being the same as yours.
Well, they are happy to come to the house but not if she is there.
So we seem to be at an impasse."

This implies that you only wanted the girls to stay if OW was there. How many times do you need to hear that they don't want to meet her? I've told you many times, so have they; do you need to hear it from somebody else if you can't believe your wife and children? I suggest you ask yourself who it is you are trying to keep happy. Certainly not your children.
You will always be the girls’ father but how good or bad a father you choose to be is up to you. They are already forming their own opinions of you based on your actions. They may be young but they know the difference between right and wrong.

You said:

"I think the world of you and I do enjoy what little time we have together, albeit a cup of tea in the kitchen. You are easier to talk to now then I can ever remember."

As I have said to you before, I cannot just be your friend. When someone betrays you it's hard to be their friend. You have betrayed our family and as you are not currently interested in correcting that, being friends with you is not possible. You are not a friend of this family; you are just a relative with financial obligations but not a friend. Nor is the OW. So keep your affair related friends away from my family.

I realize that this is hard to hear and to digest but when you find my real husband let him know that his family loves him and want him to come home. In the meantime, this other ****** can stay away.

Do not send this email.

First, never try to educate a WS.

We all know that he is not trying to keep the girls happy, and you are right that they are forming their own opinions of him right now. But you do not need to throw that up at him. He is making a LOT of mistakes right now. But Tarnsy, you are not his mother, and you do not need to teach him this. Let him make his own mistakes. I promise you, there are other forces telling him that he is wrong. Friends, family, his own guilt. You don't see all of these other workings, but they are happening anyway. He clearly is afraid of D. He said himself that it is expensive and very final. Most WS's are anxious for a D - to "start over again". yours is not. Ask yourself why.




When you read this statement again, do you really think this is something to say to your H, who you want to build a happy M with? his finances are not your problem, true. But you don't need to throw it back in his face! and that line about how OW would be too glad to help - you do not know that for a fact! And furthermore- that is a total disrespectful judgment of him - and her. You assume that OW is nagging him for a D, and offering to pay. But that is only an assumption on your part.

Ask yourself this question: What good could come from this email? What would his response likely be? No matter what your goal is - this is a negative email and none of it should be sent. If you want to build a new, happy M, this email will push him away.

You are angry, that is understandable!! So put your thoughts in a journal - not an email to him. If he read this email - would he think you have made any changes in your attitude, or your life?

I would suggest not sending anything at all. Let him wonder what you are up to. Let him worry, and fret. He expects you to send a nasty email - don't give him the satisfaction.

I am not suggesting that you just roll over and let him walk all over you. Next time he complains about finances give a simpl reply like "I am sorry that things have been so ahrd on you lately." If he says D is so final - reply with "you are right, it is. I do not want a D for myself, or my DD's, but I simply can not remain married to a man who lives with his GF. it is not my vision of M, and not the lesson I wnat to teach my DD's. As much as it breaks my heart - if you will not commit to me, and our M, then YOU need to proceed with the D."

Finally, be very careful when you talk about the girls going to his place - he is going to start nagging them. Telling them that he wants to see them more "but Mum won't let them" and if they really love him, then they should tell Mum that they want to go to Dads place.
These girls should enver be caught in the middle, and I fear that is going to happen soon. I can see it all ready with his statement "it appears that they tell you one thing, and me another" those girls want you both to be happy.

Thankyou WOF, I seem to be getting very confused. I feel that I no longer know my H and don't know which path I should be taking.

I'm feeling a bit emotional at the moment and it's getting late here so will try to get back here tomoro.

Thx

Tarnsy

Tarnsy,

Like WOF said, it's not to teach the Ws. The purpose of your response is to give him factual info. Take out some of the conversational aspects and let him hear 'just the facts'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Try it again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

L.

After thinking about it I have decided not to send WH an email at the moment. As WOF pointed out, I believe it would push him further away and I want his memories of his last conversations with me before plan B to be pleasant ones.

Thanx for the advice Orchid and please don't think that I'm ignoring it. I have taken it all in and will use it but I don't think the time is right at the moment. Also I think that some of it would be better said face to face such as the stuff about how can he reconcile staying married when he lives with OW. Plus if it's on paper he could use it against me in any future court case!

Got to go now, will check in later.

Tarnsy,

Just checking on you. How are you doing?

Who

Who,

Doing fine thx.

Had a good night out with friends on saturday and DD's stayed at my mums house overnight but really don't enjoy coming home to an empty house. WH always used to wait up for me on the rare occasions that I stayed out late and I missed him. Have a few more nights out planned over the next few weeks so I guess I will have the chance to get used to it.

Had no contact with WH over the weekend and was worried that I may bump into him and OW as one of the places I was going is a place that they frequent, so asked neighbour to call WH to find out if they were out. Turned out WH was in another county so that was OK. But then I realised that where he was we have two couples who are friends of both of us so then worried that he was introducing OW to them. Realised there was nothing I could do about if he was and that it may not even be the case so put it out of my mind and enjoyed myself.

WH has just been to pick up DD's, he asked if my leg was ok, I told him that it had been aching as I'd been out dancing saturday night. WH then asked where I had been, who with and what time did I get home. Should probably have told him it was none of his business but let him know anyway apart from the time I got home, just said it was sometime sunday!

WH then said it was time to go as he was getting ..... he didn't finish the sentence and left. Perhaps I've given him something to think about!

Tarnsy,

Well, he better start thinking about how he will feel if things don't work out and you do begin a relationship with someone else at some point in the future.

I'm not saying that your marriage isn't going to recover, but if it doesn't, he certainly has no right to any expectation that you will spend the rest of your life alone.

Right now, he still gets to have you in his life and he doesn't really need to wonder what things will be like without you. It will be really enlightning to see how he handles your Plan B.

How long is it until your friends return from holiday so you can go dark on him?

As a bit of encouragement, someone here once said that often, those marriages where the wayward actually gets a glimpse of life without their BS ofter recover better.

In my sitch, FWH had already ended the A before d-day and had never intended to leave, but as soon as things weren't going well down the road, he returned to the old familiar wayward mindset.

I think he never really had to grasp what his life would be like without me in it so he continued to take me for granted. That attitude really delayed our recovery and ultimately almost led him to A #2 which would have finished us off.

You hang in there and try to enjoy some solitude when your kids are at your mums. Solitude, like good wine, is an acquired taste, but it can be very soothing as well.

Who

Who,

Thx for the words of encouragement.

Friends will be back at the weekend so I had better get my PBL posted so that the experts can give their opinions.

WH has already had a taste of what life would be like without me altho it was only for 2mths and before I knew of the MB principles. I had no contact with him as I knew that every time I saw him it just made me more upset so took myself out of the situation and altho I was still very depressed at the time, it definitely helped in my personal recovery. I'm hoping it will have the same effect again altho I'm in a much better place now than I was then, there is still room for improvement.

Wh has just dropped off DD's and came in for a cup of tea and a chat. DD13 came into the kitchen and said "Dad was thinking of you today". This made WH blush! Turned out a song came on the radio that reminded him of me. I told him it was nice that he thought of me.

WH weighed himself and has put on 28lbs since january! It's all gone to his stomach so told him it was middle age spread to go with his midlife crisis! He said "you've never called it that before". Told him he is nearly 40 so it seems to me that it is but it just made him more cuddly.

Maybe that thinking all this has happened because of a midlife crisis may give him another perspective on why we are where we are. You never know.

I have spent the last few days reading mimi's plan B thread and think it has given me the final push I needed to see that this is the only way to go. I know it's not going to be easy, I will miss the small amount of contact we have but it is more important to think of any possible long term benefits rather than the short term pleasures. Besides, the pleasure is being overtaken by the sadness I feel when I do see him so the time is right.

Here's my plan B letter, so please advise on any changes I may need to make.

Dear WH,

This is the hardest letter I have ever had to write but I feel that this is the only way that I can express myself and tell you how I have come to the decision that I have.

I never thought that we would be in this situation; I honestly thought that we would be married till the day I died. I know that we didn’t always have the best of marriages but as you used to say, there must have been something connecting us as we always managed to find our way back to each other.

The last nine months have made me realise how much I truly love you and how my actions helped lead us to this place. I know that I wasn’t as good a wife to you as you deserved and that I continually pushed you away verbally and physically, I wasn’t as supportive of you as I could have been and now I know how important these things were to you.

Over the last few months I have recognised the errors I made and have learnt from them. It has taken hard work on my part to change these things about myself but because I wanted to become a better person, wife and mother it was worth it. I now know that I can be a good wife, a wife who creates a warm, loving home for her husband to return to everyday, a wife who admires her husband for all the good things he brings to the home, a wife who is there to listen and support her husband when he has things on his mind and a wife who shows her love to her husband in every way. I believe that I have shown during the past few months that I can be a friend, confidante and lover to you.

I am truly sorry for helping to create an environment where it was easy for you to be vulnerable to an affair. I took your love for granted and realise that I did little to enable our love to grow. I lost sight of the importance of meeting your needs but now I am more than willing to do so and will do so enthusiastically.

The last nine months have been the most difficult of my life. The pain and emptiness sometimes seems never-ending and almost too much to bear. I console myself with the memories of the love we once shared, the good times we had, the qualities of the wonderful man I fell in love with and promised to spend my life with, and the thought that one day, we could be happy together again.

As you are aware, I am still committed to making our marriage a happy and safe place to be and to correcting the mistakes we made so that we can be stronger and happier than ever before. There is nothing I want more than for us to build a new marriage where we both feel loved, cherished and safe. Where our children can grow in a secure environment into happy, well balanced adults.

The decision I mentioned is that I cannot see or communicate with you in anyway while you are involved with another person. It has become too painful for me and does not help in my learning to be the best possible wife I can be.

I have not made this decision lightly and it is not meant to hurt you in anyway. It is simply to protect the love I still have for you should you decide that you want to rebuild our marriage and return to the family.

As soon as you end your relationship with the other woman and agree to no contact with her and are willing to commit to our marriage then I will be willing to do whatever it takes to restore our relationship. Until that point I must break off all contact with you including e-mail, phone, text and face to face contact so that my love for you does not die.

You can contact me through **** and **** (I have put their contact numbers and email address at the bottom of this letter) if there is an emergency, and I would appreciate it if from now on that you stay in the car when picking up or dropping off the girls.

Please respect my decision to end all contact but it is the only way for me to get over the pain that your extra marital relationship has caused me. I simply cannot put myself through anymore without risking the love I have for you eroding away. So to avoid poisoning my memories and everything we shared and to give our marriage a chance of recovery in the future, I must separate from you in this way.

It makes me sad to think that the memories I thought we’d make together in the future may not happen. That it may not be you standing beside me, holding my hand as our daughters get married. It may not be you standing impatiently next to me as our grandchildren are born and it may not be you sitting with me as we get old and reflect on our lives.

I love you more today than I did when we got married but I can not be just a friend to you. As soon as you end your relationship with the other woman and promise to commit to our marriage and to counselling then feel free to contact me but until then, goodbye,

All my love

tarnsy,

I'm not really qualified to advise you on any changes but wanted to let you know that I was very moved by your letter. Tears came to my eyes. You came across to me as a very reasonable and loving woman.

I truly hope you have the strength to remain as dark as you need to be from now on. Good luck!

MW

Thankyou for your kind words MW, I hope it has a similar effect on WH!

Ternsy,

I haven't any experience with Plan B personally, but your letter is moving and makes the point clearly. Best of luck to you. I hope that you have complete success in this.

(((((Tarnsy)))))))

Who

Thx Who,

Please continue to drop in as I'm sure I'll need lots of moral support once I give the letter to WH.

I'm currently wondering how much longer to wait. Intermediaries are back at the weekend and in just over 2 weeks is what would be our 17th wedding anniversary. Should I wait till after that so that I can send WH a heartfelt card as I wouldn't be able to do this if I follow plan B to the letter or just do it asap. On the one hand I would really like to give WH a loving card to remind him of the promises we made to each other but OTOH I don't want to risk losing my love for him. My love bank is not near the empty mark yet but I am finding each encounter harder to deal with.