It was VERY nice, thank you Ace. Terrific cabin, wonderful mountain views, great time alone together (mall shopping, visiting the muscle car museum, hot tub, jacuzzi, no job interruptions, no kids visiting....just us). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

FH,


I was sincere and I have found my answers. Just because they are not the answers you found does not mean I was not a sincere seeker. Most people in the world follow the religion they were born into and don't even bother to examine other religions. That is not seeking anything. You, for instance, still are not seeing Secular Humanism as a Secular Humanist would see it. You still fail to understand why it makes so much more sense than religion. You are probably afraid to because you are afraid of losing your faith. But a shift in perspective really can help you cope with the reality of death, and the reality that people must take care of each other because there is no one else.



Exactly! That's why I don't like Christianity or any other religion. I do not believe any of them are true. People WANT to believe they are true because people don't like the fact that when we die, we cease to exist. Nobody wants to face the truth. But I can deal with the truth. I have learned to cope with the reality that when I die, I will no longer exist. I'm not happy about it, but what makes me happy is not necessarily what's true.


Sounds to me like you are exploiting my personal crisis in order to gain a convert and win brownie points with God. I do not appreciate that at all. I have absolutely no interest in Christianity. None. In fact, I think there are a lot of things in Christianity that are absolutely horrible and make me sick to my stomach. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but that's the way I feel. I hate religion, and I think most of the violence in the world would not be going on if not for beliefs in supernatural, transcendent beings. But don't get me wrong...I don't hate Christians or religious people in general as long as they don't think I'm a bad person for not believing as they do. I know religion is a comfort to a lot of people, it's just that I can't be comforted by something I believe to be false.

I will say this, though. Paul Kurtz, the head of the Council for Secular Humanism has written a great deal about the benefits and (positive) morality of monogamy and marriage. I think it would be very good for me to read about those things from a Secular Humanist point of view, so that's what I will do. I said before that I was a bit defensive about talking about Secular Humanism because I felt like I had to be responsible for being a representative of Humanism, and I know I haven't lived up to it. Well, the solution to that is to live up to it. I can't change the past but I can control how I behave in the future. Not many people get to meet an actual Secular Humanist and get most of their information about it from the wrong sources. So, like it or not, I have to set an example. So that's what I'll do.

To Ace, I know that you are being sincere when you say you will pray for me. I appreciate the thought behind it.

Sorry to be behind,
but this is my first look at this thread.


This comment seemed to have really struck a nerve with some here.
Fair Enough.

However,
I don't think Aphaeresis's experience is all that uncommon.

My W did very similar things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
She was doing ALL Kinds of stuff for her CLB (OM) .....that I Never Got.
At All.
In fact,
after they got into their routine .....he got it EVERY time.
{yea, it took her 4-6 months to get trained in all that stuff}
*sigh*

She traded the thrill of HER sexual favors ......for His Attention and Blowing smoke up her @zz.
Sad but true.

In addition,
my W never had any plans to ever Leave .......and also thought it was OK, as long as it was their "little secret". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Aphaeresis - you are continuing with your Disrespectful Judgments. That may be something you might want to begin working on if you are truly thinking about changing the "way you are" to the "way you want to be."




Of course not, because I don't need to "deny God" in order to understand it's basis or it's beliefs anymore than I need to be a Hindu or an Atheist (which, by the way IS what Secular Humanists are) in order to understand their beliefs. I don't have to BECOME something to understand it.




Not at all. IF there was a time when that sort of potential was possible, it would have been when I became aware of my wife's adultery.




And this philosophy, I suppose, is born out by "reproductive rights" wherein a human being is killed and the "reality of death" is that there is NOTHING after death? That is some "taking care of each other."




Okay, if you can deal with the truth, what constitutes "truth" for you? Obviously you do NOT believe that Jesus Christ lived, much less that he died and rose physically from the dead. Despite all the eyewitness testimony you choose to deny his very existence. On what basis do you make that determination? You were not there. The eyewitnesses were. By the same token you must obviously reject the possibility, never mind the fact, of miracles, because miracles would require a circumventing of "natural processes."




That is a more profound statement than you realize.




Then you have no real understanding of what being a Christian is.

However, far be it from me to "exploit" anything. I shall wish you well in your attempts to hold your marriage together. I have no need of any "brownie points" with God. Jesus Christ secured all of them for me that I will ever need.




You are not a "bad person" for not believing in Christianity. You, me, and everyone else is a "bad person" simply because there is only one who IS good, and it's not any human being. What you argue for, and it is your right to do so, is that the "best of the worst is good enough." RELATIVE to one another, graded on "the curve," however you want to look at it. The truth is that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Whether or not anyone chooses to believe that for themselves does not alter the truth. That the soul is eternal is the truth, and the grave is NOT the "end of the story." And that belief, by the way, that the grave is "the end" predates Secular Humanism by a long time, in fact it was a prevalent philosophy of many Jews during Jesus' time here on Earth. Going back even further, it was even denied by Satan when he spoke to Eve, only he twisted it to be "you will NOT die." Truth exists, and truth IS established by God, not by the mind of man, Aphaeresis.

Something you might want to think about. NO Christian converts anyone. Conversion is an act of God in His grace and mercy. All that Christians are required to do is to proclaim the Gospel message and stand ready to give an answer as to WHY they believe to anyone who might sincerely inquire. You don't want to know, and I respect your choice.




By all means, DO that.

And while you are "revisiting" Secular Humanism as a faith (a religion) to believe in, consider what you wrote:

"Exactly! That's why I don't like Christianity or any other religion. I do not believe any of them are true. People WANT to believe they are true because people don't like the fact that when we die, we cease to exist. Nobody wants to face the truth. But I can deal with the truth. I have learned to cope with the reality that when I die, I will no longer exist. I'm not happy about it, but what makes me happy is not necessarily what's true."

Just as Secular Humanists WANT to believe that there is no God and that there is no life after death. It is based in the very faith you demonize. Aphaeresis, ALL belief systems are based in FAITH, not in the "scientific method" or "what's only available to my five senses."

There IS one major difference between ALL religions, yours included, and that is the PERSON of Jesus Christ, an historical figure who actually existed and who made certain claims about Himself that were "substantiated." He may not "fit" with your desire for control, but that issue of control, sadly, was what my "lost post" was all about. I shall not be recreating it, not for "brownie points" or for anything else.

I shall end with wishing you well. May you live long and prosper as a fictitious friend of mine once said.

Aph... there is no doubt that you can believe as you wish... and I have no problem with that. I think you are wrong, but while I have my faith, there is no "proof" that Jesus was in fact God and that he died for our sins. There is no proof, nothing that would hold up in a court room that he rose from the dead...it is from faith that I believe these things... not proof that can be argued away with the passage of time and a failure to document things in real time.
But isn't the real issue here, not one of your disdain for religion or your belief in sec hum? Isn't the issue here that you have infected others lives with your brand of selfishness? You have harmed countless numbers of people and even the one you vowed to take care of forever. The reason you have gotten ripped here and will continue to get ripped is that you project an attitude that comes across as less than remorseful about what you have done.
You may not like the terminology... but by definition, you have acted like a **EDIT**. You make matters worse by bragging about your sexual prowess when in reality because of the way you were acting out, it is something to be ashamed of. If you were with your H I wouldn't care if you did every act imaginable...that's cool. Even if you were single and you made a choice to be that way with another like minded single person... no problem if it works for you. But when you hurt another and act less than remorseful about what you have done, that makes you a bad person in my eyes.
Your H deserves the truth today. If Larry truly wants to help out a BS here, he can email your info to me and I will notify your H myself...not because I hate you... but because every single day that passes with him still being lied to is another day that you have betrayed him.
So skipping all this religious nonsense for a while... this is a simple case of right and wrong.

four gifts to the marriage:
care
protection
honesty
time

You ask

"What does working on myself mean?"

it means getting yourself to where you are willing to commit giving the four gifts to your marriage ... and to yourself ... for the remainder of your life .... because that is what you vowed when you said "I do"

Good God. Leave it to MEDC to come by and proclaim his love for JC and then call you a wh0re again. Tell me MEDC, WWJD? Would he call Aph a wh0re?

fcf... I said by definition she was acting like one... if that offends you or you feel it is wrong little boy, open a dictionary.

fcf... to save you a little trouble in case you can't reach the book on the shelf...

Main Entry: 1whore
Pronunciation: 'hor, 'hur
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English hore, from Old English hOre; akin to Old Norse hOra ******, hOrr adulterer, Latin carus dear -- more at CHARITY
1 : a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : PROSTITUTE; also : a promiscuous or immoral woman
2 : a male who engages in sexual acts for money
3 : a venal or unscrupulous person

And? I can think of a few not so nice names for you, but I hold my tongue out of respect for the other members of this board.

Isn't judgement of this sort reserved for God, not those who seem to think they are God?

Did this little rule apply to you when you judged others on this board, namely Pepperband? Were you playing "God" when you did that?

It means becoming a Buyer instead of a Renter...

Mark

fcf... I said she was acting that way.
If we call a robber by that name after he holds up a bank are we in fact judging him incorrectly?
You are such a child.

and here's a little tidbit regarding what you call judgement...

http://www.capalert.com/judgenot.htm

fcf...

Can you actually say that you weren't acting like a who[/i]re when you were having an affair? I certainly can't, my ACTIONS back then defined me as such...My BEHAVIOR (and yours too) was FAR more offensive than the WORD wh[i]ore anyway...Don't you agree?

It's my personal opinion that you would have FAR more success in helping others if you just posted sound advice rather than acting like the masked avenger for waywards...Your choice, of course...

Mrs. W

FH,

I will go over to my separate thread on Secular Humanism to answer your religion-specific questions. Meanwhile...


Please keep in mind, the description below represents how I was thinking BACK THEN, not now.

Okay, I've been thinking about this. We were already online friends (maybe already in an EA?) when he casually mentioned that he cheats on his wife. I was shocked because I admired and respected him so much. I got angry and asked him why he didn't just divorce his wife if he wasn't going to stay faithful.

He was very intelligent and educated. You'd think smart people would avoid doing stupid things, but the truth is the smarter you are the better your rationalizations are. Everything he said seemed logical, and he had an answer for every objection I had. On the other hand, because I admired and respected him so much, I wanted to believe him. Not all of my crushes are the same. With some men I have a tendency to feel something that borders on hero worship. There was a bit of that when I was first getting to know my husband as well.

Anyway, we had many long conversations about this, including his dissatisfaction with his marital sex life. This was something I could relate to because I was also unhappy with my marital sex life. We commiserated, which led to those sort of I'm-into-this-what-are-you-into? sorts of conversations. Bad idea. Very, very bad idea. Although he hadn't tried everything I was interested in, he was very open to the possibility of trying it if he found someone interested.

My husband had already given me permission to cyber as a way of dealing with our sexual incompatibility. So it quickly led to that and several months later my friend got laid off and had to look for a new job. Sometime after that, he got one in my city. I was very relunctant to turn my virtual affair into a PA, but he was in pursuit mode and I was tempted. He talked me into at least meeting him in person, which I did. Nothing happened then, but sometime after that I found out my husband was going away for the weekend. At the time it seemed like too good an opportunity to pass up. Basically I let my emotions overrule my brain. So that's how the PA started. At times I wished I could voluntarily switch my emotions on and off like a lightswitch. Then it would be easy to do the right thing.

After the first time, I was already a cheater so I felt like I couldn't go back. I had this - in for a penny, in for a pound - way of thinking. I also felt like I had some sort of natural tendency toward cheating, more so than other people, that precluded the possibility of change. Obviously I no longer feel that way.

Aph,

I won't be calling you any names. Not worth it in the end.

When you tell your husband that you had sex for the sake of sex, that it happened because you were seeking a "friend with benefits", and that you didn't believe anyone would get hurt, it didn't really count because you had no feelings for the OM, and because you couldn't seem to work out the sexual problems with him, here's what you can expect him to think:

Sex for the sake of sex: So, sex with me has no meaning. Sex doesn't really mean anything to Aph. I don't please her, never have, never will. I am nothing to Aph.

Friend with benefits: We used to be friends. I trusted you as my best friend. Now, you have replaced me many times over. You have changed the meaning of the word "friends".

Nobody will get hurt: So, I am nobody. Just....nobody. Absolutely no consideration was given to me as a person. I am basically a non-person to Aph.

Sex without feelings doesn't really count: It counts to ME. And I am very sure that it will count to the OMW when I call her and let her know that OM and Aph still contact each other.

Aph and I couldn't work out our sexual problems within the marriage: Probably because Aph has been having OM on her mind for over six years, and she has the idea that I am a nobody, who is unable to come close to meeting her needs anyway. She spends most of her time trying to find OM, and not nearly enough time figuring out how to work out the problems - the OBVIOUS problems - we have communicating in our marriage, meeting MY emotional needs, which she has devastated at this point. She hasn't met my sexual needs, talking only of her OWN, and complaining that I am not meeting her needs, asking for things in vague and unclear ways and then complaining that I am not good enough. The interactions regarding sex have reached the point where I am avoiding going to a doctor, avoiding talking to her about it any further, and probably have contributed greatly to the performance issues. Now, she tells me about the affairs......multiple affairs.

And, she is blaming......ME......because I am not meeting HER NEEDS.

Aph,
That's what I see his mind doing. Because it is basically what mine did.

You are the living, breathing, clone of my husband's OW.

I feel greatly disappointed in you, and feel sorry for you. Your life will not be happy from this point forward, because you do not see what you are doing wrong.

And you do not listen.

Without this change, without LISTENING, you will not make the changes needed in your heart.

And you will lose your marriage.

Plain and simple.

IF you are willing to listen, here's the rest of the advice:

YOU must understand that you had these affairs because YOU made this choice -

NOT because of your husband's lack of sexual performance
NOT because of your husband's lack of sexual positions
NOT because of your husband's lack of sexual desire for you
NOT because of your husband's lack of painting himself purple, or putting on costumes, or doing something you wanted him to do in bed, or ejaculating to the 1812 Overture in time with the firing of the cannons, or ANYTHING ELSE regarding YOUR HUSBAND's sexual performance.

You had these affairs because of YOU.

YOUR bad choices.
YOUR selfishness.
YOUR weaknesses.
YOUR ego.
YOUR .......fill in the blank.

YOU were in charge of this crappaganza, nobody else.

And if you go into this confession with anything else dripping from your lips, the outcome will be only be a continuation of that same party.

You know where that will lead.


My husband got caught. It would NOT have made one iota of difference to me if he would have confessed. Do not kid yourself with that.

This is going to devastate your husband. Nothing you do or say will cushion the blow, but there are things you can do and say that will make a difference in your chances for a future with him.

The very first thing you have to come up with, however, is

LEGITIMATE, HONEST, REMORSE.

The problem here is,

YOU DON'T HAVE ANY TO SHOW HIM.

So, how do you propose to solve that? Because to tell you the truth, THAT will be your biggest hurdle.

All the philosophizing, SecHum morality, justifications, explanations, apologies, "I've changed" pleas, and the rest, will not get him beyond calling bullsh*t on all of it - due to your obvious lack of remorse.

I'm telling you this straight up, because you are running out of time, and you have a wonderful tendency to avoid the confrontation at hand. You won't solve this one, EVER, if you don't face it head-on.

I see you as needing to work fast, really fast, to fix:

1. LISTENING
2. Understanding that these affairs are due to a fault in YOU, not your husband
3. You should feel remorse, and you do not convey that in the least.
4. Your tendency to make disrespectful judgements of your husband is obvious to us on the board, and you need to read up on this.
5. You are focused only on your needs in terms of sex, not on your husband's.
6. You are focused only on your needs in terms of your marriage, not your husband's.


Look at the last two and ask yourself, honestly, how much that has contributed to the downfall of your husband's ego, your sexual interactions with him, and your marriage in total.

Now, reassess your approach to this entire process. This marriage is in trouble because of YOU and your actions - start there, and worry about what your husband can do to fix his problems later. I do agree that he likely has some contributions to make and things to fix, but at this point, YOU have the heavy load. You control you, and only you.

mk,


Yes, that's the real issue. I'm not sure how to show remorse online without calling myself a bunch of names, which I'm not going to do. It puts the focus on me instead of on what I need to do to help him.


He has already indicated he can't handle anything right now except his job search. Plus, if I told him now he'd be worried sick about what I'm doing while he's in a completely different state. Plus, he's so depressed over the job situation that I fear telling him RIGHT NOW will make suicide a possibility. He does not deserve to die because I couldn't wait a few more weeks to tell him.

On the word "******." Words have connotations as well as denotation. When you call someone "******" what they hear is, "you think I'm a bad person not capable of change. I know I'm not that, so I'm not going to take what you say seriously." Regardless of whether the denotation fits, it simply will not help get through to people because of the connotation.

mkeverydaycnt did something a little different in that he said I was acting like one, not that I was one. The distinction is often lost on most people, but I get it. I still think it's more productive to focus on what I need to do now and in the future, though.

And good answer to what working on myself means, Pepperband and others in case I missed anyone.

You know, I just noticed that the word when spelled correctly is being filtered out from the bad speech filter. I suspect that means Dr. Harley would not approve of such language, and it is his site. Food for thought.

As to your analysis of denotation on being called a name. Among the other possibilities exists that in which the recipient of the name-calling takes into account the possibility that "the shoe fits".

Based on this, the person being called the name then ponders why it might be possible that the "shoe might fit", and makes careful analysis of one's own life.

Based on the analysis, the person then decides that either a) the shoe did not fit and drops it, or b) the shoe did indeed fit.

In your case, my advice was to LISTEN.

Choose option "b". The shoe fit. You did indeed act as named.

The label in this case fit (in terms of the current societal trend and accepted use of this particular term), and you need careful analysis of the behavior and careful analysis of the motivations behind this behavior. Certainly the short-term lift to the ego was gained, and self-serving pleasurable physical gains were received. However, the long-term outcomes of the behavior is now being seen. I certainly hope that you see some remorse, as I would personally see this as a gain in morality.

I see this as a gain in morality, because, aside from ANY religious argument against infidelity, there IS a human argument.

You have depersonalized your husband, and the OMWs in this situation. Despite your own personal belief system prior to and at the time of the affairs, the people who were married to you, and the those married to the OM did not share the same belief system. You ignored those beliefs, and instead made decisions without regard to their needs, feelings, and wants. Your needs and wants were held above those of others in the world, and overrode any and all other human beings' rights. This, in itself, dehumanized everyone in your wake. It is in this, at the very least, you should feel some sense of remorse, and indeed, shame. You are not better than, or above, others. Your own desires do not rise above those of others', your physical sensations and sexual needs and desires do not outweigh those of others. Because you do not believe in the religious vows of the marriage of others does not place you in the position to violate those of other marriages, despite the willingness of one of the partners in that marriage to do so - there remains another partner who was not present and voting.

The OW in my case told me that she had the very same ideas of marriage that you have, the very same ideas of sex that you have. Similar issues of sexual "needs" within her marriage that you have.

She stated she does not believe she can ever really love anyone. I believe you are probably doomed to that as well, because those who are so self-centered cannot give enough of themselves away to love deeply. It isn't in the getting that love is experienced.......it is in the giving......the sharing......yet, there is so much impersonal and I worry, weak, shallow, fearful, about your writing. You haven't let us "in".....you are not yet genuine.

Too many lies, still, Aph.

And the lies? Your "husband".....he will not be yours long.

schoolbus,

I don't want to do that to him. I know I made bad choices. I'm just trying to figure out why I made them. I know it's all my fault. Maybe I need to give him one reason for the purpose of answering what he needs to know and another reason for my purpose of keeping myself out of trouble in the future? I could tell him I was being selfish and stupid, and that would be true. For the purpose of keeping myself out of trouble I will need something more detailed.

I do feel remorse. I think about the pain he's about to go through and also the pain he may have already gone through suspecting something was wrong and not knowing what it was. I cry over it once or twice a day, then force myself to think about something else so I don't render myself dysfunctional. I know I report feelings of remorse in a very matter-of-fact unemotional way, but if I didn't I'd be too busy crying to finish my post.


Ok, I will. I know I've been too hard on him.


My husband's list of sexual needs is very short, and I do everything he likes. His problem with orgasm is medical, and I've tried to encourage him to see a doctor without nagging.


I will try to be more focused on my husband's marital needs, not my own, but it would help if I had a better idea of what they were, and he won't tell me.


I think we both contributed. I didn't realize how much *I* contributed until recently and it makes me very sad.


I agree with all of that. I'm attempting not to cry so I can finish this. Oops. Didn't quite make it.


No, that's not me. I love my husband very much. The first time he threatened to divorce me I cried so much that I had to buy artificial tears. I had run out of my own and my eyes were hurting from the dryness.


Well, sometimes I feel so much guilt I imagine myself as a jumper. Makes no sense, though, because I hate the feeling of falling, and poison would be quicker. Not that I would do that. It would hurt my kids too much.

Umm...last paragraph of last post - just a momentary fleeting thought. Pops up occasionally, but I'll be fine. I just want to focus on what to do next. I can't change what's already done.