Okay, I've been told to work on myself (until we can be together in person and I tell my husband the truth). I know part of that is thinking up ways to protect my marital boundaries. I think I've thought of those. I will eventually do a phone session with S. Harley when I have the money. Have no money for IC. What else is there? What do I need to think of next?

BTW I was just reading a very old thread on stupid things waywards say. So I think I know now what NOT to say.

Also...I'm wondering what sort of questions I can expect when I tell him. Do BH's ask different questions than a BW would?

I'm wondering what to say if - well, maybe when - he asks me "why?" because I know I have to avoid anything that could be interpreted as blaming him. Here's my uncensored answer as I see it right now. I would appreciate some feedback, whether it be on presentation or to tell me my whole thinking on this is wrong. Here goes:

I felt frustrated that I could not find a solution to our sexual problems.[He knows we have problems in this area - this part will not be a surprise.] I chose the worst possible way of coping with that by giving up and looking outside the marriage. At the time I was thinking that it was "just sex" and wouldn't affect the rest of our marriage and that it would only hurt you if I got caught. I eventually realized that was screwy thinking and that I had given up too soon, too easily. So I quit.

Aph, I am going to bring this issue here instead of discussing it on skinsgal thread. Skinsgal came here looking for MARRIAGE BUILDERS advice and you told her something completely contrary to MB off the top of your head. You gave her misleading advice about her H's reaction to her weight problem. She is in crisis mode and the last thing she needs is to be MISLED; she needs HELP from MARRIAGE BUILDERS.

If you want to help people, I would suggest 2 things:

1. fix yourself first. You have huge marital problems and are in no position to help anyone. You cannot help others if you can't help yourself

2. LEARN MARRIAGE BUILDERS PRINCIPLES before you presume to give others advice. Folks are here to learn about MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not to hear my personal philosophy or yours.

If you feel you have a better program than Dr. Harley, then write some books and start your own forum, but around here, it is MARRIAGE BUILDERS [the sign on the door, after all] PRINCIPLES that we help the newcomers with.

I would appreciate if you would remember this and leave the newcomers to those who KNOW Marriage Builders principles. That is what these people come here for, after all.

bump

Why? The answer is not "because you....".

The answer is "I sought a solution to MY problems by having an A."

I told my H he'd "become old and depressed." I thought (at the foggy time) I was quite justified in saying that and couldn't understand why he was so hurt.

Working on yourself also means understanding what makes you behave in certain ways and why destructive behaviour is part of that.

Working on yourself means becoming self aware and aware of the effect you have on the people around you. It's learning to have a positive effect on people. People always tell me I don't listen to them and that I interrupt them when they're speaking. It's selfish behaviour and I'm learning not to do it.

MelodyLane,

Nothing I said is contrary to MB. I read His Needs, Her Needs. Some people like to have an attractive spouse, fine that's one need. But where in MB does it say you can get your cheating husband back by losing weight? She said she lost 30 pounds and her husband still didn't come back, so obviously there is something else going on. She also said she feels she can't compete because the OW is prettier. Well there is ALWAYS going to be someone else prettier. What's the point in making her feel bad about her looks?

Yes, Aph, you did say something contrary to MB. You don't even understand Plan A yet here you are misleading this woman because you think it will "make her feel bad." She is going to feel much worse if she loses her H because she won't meet his needs.

Please get your own house in order and LEARN about MB principles before you try to help others. Thanks.

I was a BH Aph, but I don't know if what I can tell you has much value. My experience was different from the one your fella's in for. My ex was a$$ over teakettle for her affair partner and today she is "married" to him. Quite a different situation.

When I found out about my former wife's affair I wanted the truth. I didn't want something to make me feel better, I wanted the real information. Whether it was easy or hard to hear was irrelevant. I didn't need my feelings protected, I needed to know what I was facing so I could figure out what to do about it.

Your mileage may vary. Some men hear about a past affair and get a lawyer. Some are fully engaged from the start. Some just check out and make a bigger commitment to their TVs.

If your husband detaches and stays that way, then you're in for a long haul. That sort of man doesn't participate in Internet forums about marriage, so you won't get much insight on him here.

Has FLT2H ever responded to you? Don't know if she's around much nowadays.

GC

MelodyLane,

1- you are always so fond of telling me that my husband has the right to choose to leave me once he knows the truth. Well, this woman we're talking about also has the right to decide whether or not she wants a man who is going to leave her everytime someone prettier comes along. At least I didn't leave. If her weight really is the only thing that made him leave (which I'm still not convinced of) she's better off having someone else appreciate her new figure.

2- You need to look at your own house. You have a history of physical abuse against your husband coupled with bullying behavior on these boards, not just in conversation with me but in conversation with just about everyone. I never claimed to be an expert on marriage, but having grown up with a father who was physically abusive and who later got help, I have become an expert on anger management problems and you are a textbook case. You think you are helping people here, but you're not. You're just taking your own anger out. No wonder you love guilt and shame. They are your tools to getting revenge by proxy on your husband for what he did to you. You need to get some anger management counseling. In the meantime, I'm not reading anymore of your posts. You are verbally abusive in most of what you write to most of the people you post to. I've had it, and I'm not taking it anymore. End of thread jack.

KiwiJ, Thank you. I appreciate your input.

graycloud, I don't believe I've ever seen FLT2H, no. Maybe I'll check old posts, though, thanks.

So, between what the two of you are saying...I need to take responsibility for my choices but yet also be totally honest about my reasons and what was lacking in the marriage. I think I can do that.

Aph, first off, my house in order. My marriage is recovered and I fully understand and advocate MB principles.

But, this is not about me or your crackpot, fuzzy analysis of my personality, but about helping newcomers learn Marriage Builders.

When newcomers come here, they come to learn about MARRIAGE BUILDERS principles, not about your personal philosophy or mine. You do newcomers a disservice when you post advice that is ignorant and in direct contradiction to Marriage Builders. It is confusing to them and helps no one. You have absolutely no understanding of Plan A and yet here you are doling out bad advice to her.

Nor are you in any position to help anyone with your own marriage in such a mess because of your own serial cheating. You can't help anyone else until you learn to help yourself. Fix yourself first, APh.

Aphaeresis,

I understand your feelings about MelodyLane's tactics, but those tactics have helped many B/S pull their head out of the sand, and do what needs to be done.

So she is blunt and rude at times, but she also motivates people into action.

I am a MelodyLane fan. She was instrumental in pounding into my hard head what needed to be done to save my marriage.

Some people show they care by being nice and holding your hand, she happens to show her care by being honest, straight, and direct.

I will take honest and direct anytime over having my hand held, and I am sure the b/s that have benefited from her advice over the years feel the same way.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, kds, but don't worry. Her attack on me stems from her anger at my challenge about the contradictory advice she doled out to a newcomer and I recognize it as such. It was just a diversion. Her opinion of me is her personal problem, not mine. Thanks, friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Honestly, Aph, can you not see my point? These people come here in the throes of despair and they desperately need help. Marriage Builders is a tried and true program that represents their best hope of survival. They need to get accurate and effective advice that is likely to work. The principles were developed by Dr. Willard Harley, a psychologist who SPECIALIZES in adultery and has a long, successful track record spanning 35 years. His methods are their best hope. They come here for THAT.

You and I are not qualified to advise these people based on our own expertise. What do I know? What do you know? I am not a trained psychologist, ARE YOU? I sell soft drinks! The best that we can do to help them is to tell them what an experienced PROFESSIONAL, Dr Harley, would advise, based on his books and articles. I don't imagine for a second that I am smarter than him when it comes to saving marriages. Any such belief would be arrogant, and more importantly a GREAT DISSERVICE to those who come here bleeding and wounded in search of HELP.

I applaud you for trying to help folks, but please learn the program and practice the principles in your own life before you try to help others. Become qualified and experienced in MB principles before you attempt to help others, lest you mislead and confuse them. That helps no one.

Aph,

You would be doing yourself a favor to listen to Mel. She gives good advice. Sometimes the best advice is the very advice you DON'T want to hear.

And in this case, you are very foggy right now. I have, however, seen some change in you, and you are moving in the right direction. Not there yet, but moving on the feeder road toward the highway. Not on the entrance ramp, yet, though, Aph.

Working on yourself. I would say you need to understand MB principles more fully, yes.


Praise: You've read HNHN. Good.

To-do: Read After the Affair, or Surviving an Affair. Personally, my FWH got a lot more our of After the Affair. For some reason, it resonated with the wayward part of him, and it did help me. But order and read one of them. Better yet, read both.



You really need more thorough understanding of your own behavior. I still see a great deal of justification/rationalization in your writing here. You see the problems in your marriage with sex as leading to your affairs. Your "explanation" as written above to your BH will not be helpful, from where I stand. My FWH gave a similar explanation. It was only sex, if he didn't get caught nobody would be hurt, yadda-yadda. Now, what kind of a crappaganza did you expect?

But not once prior to his affair did he ever just talk with me about his feelings. You should fully expect your husband to feel about like I did, because regardless of the fact that you say your husband was "aware" of the issues, he is not likely to expect you to solve the problem by having multiple affairs.

Additionally, being "aware" of issues and having true interactions and a mutually discussed planned course of action to solve the issue within the marriage are very different things. For example, my husband could tell me that he didn't like the peas we had for dinner. That makes me "aware" he didn't like those peas, right? But maybe what is not said is that he does not and has never liked peas, in fact despises peas, never wants them in the house, etc. There is a difference in what I see as being communicated.

I wonder what the communication is/was between you and your BH regarding the problems in your marriage prior to your affairs? The style of communication (by the way, this is my field of expertise, my profession) that you reveal on these boards shows a tendency to change topics quite rapidly when confronted or challenged with facts or opinions in conflict with your own. I see that you shut off others who do not agree with you. It would therefore not be surprising that when your husband and you "discuss" issues that he finds it difficult to keep you in the room for a full discussion, or that one or both of you storm out and things never really are completely ironed out or resolved. Later, neither of you bring up the topic again, or it is left to fester and you sort of "agree to disagree" or somehow work out a way of doing things that avoids a true solution but sweeps the problem out of the way for a long enough time and ultimately it fades out. Has this been the case?

When working on yourself, please consider that one of the first things you will need to do in order to save your marriage will be to change your communication style.

First on the order of business in this regard is to increase your willingness to listen to a wider point of view - most importantly, to people who you see as critical of you. It is going to be very difficult for you to talk to your husband, because he WILL say things to you that will hurt you. You can count on this.

On this board, we can and will prepare you for that.

But you have to be willing to hear the worst here, and understand WHY we say what we say. You have to be willing to take these 2X4s now, because IF there is any hope for you to save your marriage, you must be able to take them later, from your husband.

And MB can help you do that. But you have to learn to communicate, understand....

LISTEN
LISTEN
LISTEN

Go back and read the website again.
You have made progress. Don't get me wrong.
But you do need to make a slight change - that is, even if you don't like what you are reading, read it anyway. Just because the information is not pleasing to the palate doesn't mean it isn't good for you.



SB

Aph...Bwahahahahaha...MelodyLane and Anger Management Issues...That is FUNNY...And seriously, UNTRUE...I know, I've met her and her husband...FABULOUS PEOPLE AND MARRIAGE...Aph, your anger is really all I see in your posts to her...No Kidding...Stop, Listen and Learn...ML is right about this one...No question...It may be hard for you to swallow, but remember, this is the place for you to practice your humbleness...It'll go a very long way for you...

Mrs. W

Aph...

Your being frustrated about your sex life is NOT why you chose to cheat...Dig deeper, that's not it...Think about your maturity level/development...your own issues with intimacy...your own level of commitment...your need for outside approval...things like that...

If I read correctly, your husband is unable to climax...How did that affect YOUR sexual satisfaction anyway?

Mrs. W

kds,

I've made a few posts trying to help people dealing with a depressed spouse. I have experience with depression and know all symptoms and what to expect from a depressed spouse. I've had several people tell me my information was helpful. Her telling me I'm so messed up I can't possibly help anyone right now was a gross generalization that was neither helpful nor true.

schoolbus,

Okay, two more books for my reading list then <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Then what would be helpful? Because I didn't mean to imply the sex problems CAUSED my infidelities.
It was my decision to give up on finding a solution that led to my infidelities. So it was all me, and I know that.


No, I definitely act different here. I am very slow to warm up to people. It was usually me who brought up the conversations and he who ended them.

What happened is complicated because there are multiple problems.
He has a physical problem getting in the way, although that's not the only problem, and he
always has some excuse as to why he can't make an appointment with a doctor now. Unfortunately,
the last time he went, the doctor was no help at all. So now he wants to see someone specializing in his particular type of problem but he can't right now because he's looking for a job. There really have been times when he could have gone, though. It took him three years to even tell me there was a problem.

The second problem is that we don't like the same things. We would discuss this, try something, he wouldn't like it so we'd try something else and he wouldnt' like that either. He used to do things just to please me, but he was so unenthusiastic that it turned me off. We
used to fight about it, but that got us nowhere. So our solution at that point was that he gave me permission to cyber as long as it wasn't with anyone that he knew. Looking back, I think that was a mistake.

The other problem is that there is an aggressiveness, passion and energy that is just lacking. I tried to tell him I want him to be more energetic, or dominant or that I want us to feel a "sense of urgency" but his response is always that he has no idea what I'm talking about. I try to
tell him I want to do something different and he suggests a new position. But what I want has nothing to do with positions. It's something I had brought up from time to time, he didn't get it most of the time and once accused me of trying to turn him into a different person. Sometimes I suggested specific actions and that worked but the next time he'd just go back to his usual pattern unless I brought it up again.

The combination of everything just left me feeling very unwanted and frustrated that I couldn't get through to him. Throughout all this, he usually didn't want to have these conversations. I was always the one to bring it up. The sense I got from him was that I was making a big deal over something that just wasn't important. So did I fail to communicate how important a good sex life was to me?
Well, yeah that's a definite possibility. But learning to say, "honey I'm so frustrated with our sex life that I think of other men all the time" is very counter-intuitive. Yet it probably would have helped a great deal.

Aph, your post to this newcomer had nothing to do with "depression," but with Plan A, something you know nothing about. The advice you gave her was "not helpful" because it was contradictory to MB principles. And yes, you are very fogged out and need to help yourself before you start handing out "advice" to others. Fix yourself first, Aph...

Mrs.W wrote
Well I could say I'm immature but that doesn't really explain why I picked this particular form of destructive behavior rather than some other form of immature, destructive behavior.

Commitment? Unlike other cheating spouses here, I really did not have any desire to leave my husband for someone else. But somehow my commitment to stay was different than my (lack of) commitment to monogamy.

Need for outside approval? That might have something to do with it because to me sex has to include a feeling that the other person really, really wants me or it's just no fun. Well, not AS fun.


Ah, Mrs. W, if you could read my mind you'd know how crazy such a question sounds to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I LOVE to get a reaction. A man's enthusiasm and desire to be with me and my ability to elicit a response is what I love most about sex. With my OMs, the married ones in particular, I knew I was doing things for them that they'd never get from their wives and they looked at me like I was some sort of sex goddess. (Sorry to BWs for that comment; I am just trying to be honest about what I felt at the time.) What I want most is to feel wanted, desired. The thought of never experiencing that again for the rest of my life was very depressing to me. Still is.

MelodyLane, okay fine I won't answer any more plan A posts, even if I think the person would be better off with plan D. But watch those overgeneralizations. There are some things I'm very clearheaded about.

When I read the above I have to say I certainly wouldn't call what you were doing with all those married men as sexy nor was it goddess-like. Quite the contrary.

If this is what you felt and how you still see yourself when you were boinking those MMs, then you have a seriously distorted self-image and in denial of what they REALLY thought of you.

All those married men used you like a prostitute, only difference is you did it for FREE.

Sorry for my profoundly truthful comments, I'm just trying to be honest about what I'm reading.

Jo

Aph, that is one of the most self deluded things I've ever read on here and I've read some pretty self deluded things over the years.

It's also frightening because it means your self esteem is very, very low and you would prefer to be used for sex instead of having intimate relationships.

You may think that "wives" aren't that sexy. I can assure you, from speaking to many, many wives here and in real life that modern women are indeed very sexy and are more than willing to please themselves and their men in every which way possible.

It was an awful admission for you to make. You may see it as something to be proud of but it's really very, very sad.

Those men must have seen your availability for no strings sex as something they'd imagined since they were teenagers. No strings sex also means no feelings, gratification of a bodily function, sex and the ability to look on you as an object. They would save their real feelings and their love for their wives.

Resilient is right. What they really thought of you doesn't bear thinking about.

With my OMs, the married ones in particular, I knew I was doing things for them that they'd never get from their wives and they looked at me like I was some sort of sex goddess

There's a woman who does things for me that my wife doesnt do for me at home - she's a chiropractor !

And while she may consider herself to be a "massage goddess" in our relationship, I actually go there to coldly get a physical need met.

Its not her sparkling personality, wit, beauty or fashion sense that draws me to her. Its her physical ability to make an ache go away by applying her flesh to my flesh.

I think you flatter yourself "goddess" - I BET your men were just the same. Just different flesh pressing.

I think I am going to spit up!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It wasn't a "goddess" they saw, but a cheap, unpaid wh0re. You do realize men don't look well upon easy women? You might have been fun to rut with, but they wouldn't ever take you home to mama. They DO take home their wives, though.

Aph... you come across as a bimbo and a wh0re... perhaps that is your intention... perhaps not(I certainly hope it isn't). But one suggestion... how about not giving advice to anyone until such a time as you get your head out of your wayward posterior. You haven't even told your H about your being used like a blow up doll...and you want to give advice to others.

A sex goddess.... what a friggin joke.

To other MB posters...I am telling you... we have seen this woman (or man) here before under a different name (before her persona that started with two testicles being tossed into the ocean).

because it isn't. rutting like pigs and acting like a good little ho have nothing to do with a good sex life...in fact it is YOUR inability to have a good and healthy sex life that has caused these issues in your marrage. You are the one with the unhealthy needs to be used like a wh0re. So how can you communicate something you do not understand.

To use someone means to use deception to get something out of someone without giving anything back. I was getting back exactly what I wanted in the first place. I was not looking for love, I was looking for a friend with benefits. The only thing wrong with what I did was the fact that I was married and so were some of them.

Kiwi:
How can I be used for sex when it was sex that I was after in the first place? As far as I was concerned, my relationship needs other than sex were being met by my husband. I had no need to seek a boyfriend or a replacement husband. I just wanted a friend to have sex with. That's all.

MelodyLane
Depends which men you are talking about. Many men have some pretty hostile things to say about prudes and frigid women. If you think all men think the same way, you live a pretty sheltered life.


Why would I want them to take me home to mama? The last thing I would have wanted is for any of them to get so attached they'd want me to leave my husband. That would have been the last thing I wanted. I just wanted someone who'd be fun to "rut" with. Why is that so hard to understand?

mkeverydaycnt

BZZZZ! Wrong! I had a good and healthy sex life when I was dating my ex-boyfriend.

To All, since now two people have falsely accused me of being trolls I will reveal this. Larry178 knows who I am. He knows my real name, first and last. I have a presence on the Internet and so does my husband. It would not be difficult for him to google me, find my husband's name, google him and come up with one of his many email addresses whereby he could out me to my husband before I have the chance to tell him myself. Would I trust someone on these boards with THAT much information about myself if I were trolling?

so, coming across like a wh0re is intentional...okay, I get it...

and being someones f-toy does not equate to a good sex life.
weren't you the fool that was defending swinging?

I think because it is so animalistic and reflects such a shocking lack of respect for oneself. Sex is supposed to be a beautiful gift between 2 people who love each other, not reduced to nothing more than 2 pigs rutting in the pig pen. Good sex is a result of LOVE, without that, it is nothing more than getting off.


Actually not. I work with all men in a male dominated industry, so I know what they say about cheap, easy women. It is pretty ugly; lots of jokes about STDs and getting disinfected. They may disparage their wife to YOU, to get your panties off, but it is very rare that they disparage their own wives to others.

Have you been tested for STDs?

Aph, this Dr. Harley video is probably something you should see: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6806_inf.html

Aph - You are obviously still pretty foggy. You need to step back and take a look at the big picture. These "men" you got involved with like to use women. Things get a little boring at home so they find someone willing to have a roll in the hay. They'd throw you to the wolves in a heart beat if caught. They like to act as though they "care" when really they don't.

Sure, they might look at you like a sex goddess NOW, but don't base your self worth on that. Five years from now you could have put on some pounds, or maybe you start looking older, and you no longer get those "looks". Will your self esteem then plummet even further? You need to find ways to value yourself as a human being, don't let these men objectify you, which is exactly what they are doing.

As far as your H... well, reactions vary. He might want to know every detail, he might not want hardly any details. He might want a D, he might not. Expect to deal with his anger w/o placing blame on him. Own up to your A's and then if he's open, ask if he'd like to do MC with you. There will be a time, later, that you can get into what you see as problems in the M. When you confess is not a good time.

Also, the fact you had an A is not a free pass for him to treat you like dog sh*t the rest of your days.

I also think ML and MEDC can be pretty darn rude in the name of "shaking people up". I guess others have seen this approach work, I think it stinks. I was also foggy, just like you when I came to boards like this for help. Their approach would've done nothing but make me feel defensive and worse about myself. It is possible to de-fog w/o THAT kind of "help". Being called a wh0re and a troll, well, that doesn't strike me as helpful for some reason...

FCF, what is not "helpful" is avoiding using accurate words to describe behavior. Words do have meanings, after all, and we don't need to use nice words to describe bad behavior. That helps no one. Her behavior is what is "rude" and disgusting, not the words used to describe it.

And before you accuse anyone of being "rude" you might take a look at your own little posts, dear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

This type of behavior right there is why the divorce rate is so high and why women who cheat almost always think they want to leave their husbands. If a woman admits her attraction to someone is purely sexual, she's afraid to be called a slut or ****** so instead she'd rather fool herself into thinking she's in love, so that people will call her divorcee instead. I'm mature enough to know the difference between lust and love, which is why I haven't made the IDIOTIC mistake of trying to run away with one of my OMs.

I really don't understand women who would leave their husbands for someone else. I really don't. They would rather risk tearing their whole family apart than risk some moron calling her a slut. We all know that these women were not in love. I'm telling you, you weren't even looking for love in the first place. You were in it for the sex and just don't want to admit it because only men are supposed to like sex. Well, guess what? Women do too.

gee, and all this time we thought it was the cheating that ruined the marriage! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

yegads, the fog is DEEP, Aph! In your world its ok to BE a wh0re, but not ok to call it what it is. That is very dysfunctional.

Aph, words do have meanings and wh0re would be the appropriate word for your behavior. We can call you a NUN, but unfortunately, it would not change reality. Reality is a very sticky thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Aphaeresis - You just don't get it, and that's sad.


"I was looking for a friend with benefits."

A totally selfish, self-centered, self-justifing, rationalization of totally TRASHING and making a MOCKERY of the sanctity of marriage. But then you never really understood that marriage was an EXCLUSIVE arrangement anyway.


"The only thing wrong with what I did was the fact that I was married and so were some of them."

The ONLY thing? Just some "small" mistake?

You willfully and thoughtfully CHOSE to end your marriage covenant. Furthermore, you willfully CHOSE to be an ACTIVE participant in potentially destroying other marriages where in innocent wives WERE being deceived by you and the OM you enticed into your bed for some selfish "benefits."


"To use someone means to use deception to get something out of someone without giving anything back."

Nonsense. That is ONE definition among many ways to "use someone" and to utilize "deception."

How many of these men did your husband know of in advance and give you his permission to have sex with them?
You deceived and used your husband.

How many of the wives of these OM knew about you and gave you permission to have sex with their husbands?
Used and deceived.

How convenient is it to rationalize Adultery on the basis of "just wanting some sex" regardless of what my wedding VOWS of "forsaking ALL others and keeping myself ONLY unto you?"
Used and deceived, for your own purposes but NOT for the ONE FLESH entity that is a husband and wife.

Mea Culpa. I FORGOT!!! The "little world" of Adultery can only see the two adulterers and no one else exists, at least until the "Bubble bursts" and the reality and magnitude of Adultery to OTHERS slowly begins to penetrate the thick skulls of those "lost in their lust for each other or their selfish motivation of it just being "for the SEX of it all.""

Jezebel at least was clear about what she was as she enticed men into her bed. YOU continue to lie to yourself and NOTHING anyone on MB says can help your sitution. The change has to come from within yourself, but your statements make it eminently clear that you have NO understanding of what marriage is all about.

Prediction: Your husband will divorce you and you can go on searching for "friends" to have sex with. There is NOTHING in your attitude that would give your husband ANY reason to want to go through the enormous pain of recovering from your "self-entitled LITTLE indiscretions."
"Oooops, I WANT you now, dear husband, and for the moment, ONLY you. But I reserve the right to go after anyone I want in the future if my "commitment" to you now is too constraining on anything I consider to be a "need" you can't fulfill. By the way, are you getting any better in the sex performance area?"

Yep, just chock full of reasons why he should forgive you, endure the pain, and try to rebuild a marriage with you.






You were used for sex by other people with equally deficient values who saw you as an "easy piece of a$$," "a little strange," but NO commitment to you other than LUST. That you were of a similar mindset is a GIVEN, but you are so foolish you can't even see when you ARE being used either.

"As far as I was concerned, my relationship needs other than sex were being met by my husband. "

Oh ya, "excuse me honey," you provide me with everything I need EXCEPT for SEX, so I'm going to withdraw my PLEDGE and VOW to you and sneak out and have all the SEX I LUST for with other men. Your wedding vows are nothing more than a convenience for you, to be discarded whenever you WANT something. You place your NEEDS, WANTS, and DESIRES as your "gods" and use then to JUSTIFY the most hurtful and heinous thing one spouse can do to another. And it wasn't enough to "just" do that. You went further and expanded your "targets" to include other MARRIED people and give their spouses the "gift of Adultery" in THEIR lives.


"I just wanted a friend to have sex with. That's all."

Get a divorce. Join a brothel. Get all the "sex" you want with NO commitments. That's all.





And you are an opportunist, waiting to entice someone into your web of rationalization and justification. In your mind, your actions are RIGHT, not wrong. That's a fundamental problem and a good reason why there ARE Other Women like you out there waiting to destroy marriages with no feeling, no conscience, and not responsibility for the "murder" they commit in the name of "getting what they want." And just in case that confused you, Adultery IS the MURDER of the marriage covenant and the one flesh union of Husband and Wife( yours AND those of your victims).

Somehow "Black Widow" seems to keep coming to mind.





It's not hard to understand, Aphaerisis. It IS a definition of "secular humanism, moral relativism, and a POSTER for "I am god!" and I get to do whatever I want to do and it's RIGHT!"

You want to be an "animal" with NO human morals who can screw anything available anytime you "feel in heat."

Bottom line: You are NOT "marriage material," and I think your husband is going to see this too. Repentance and remorse and change are NOT words in your vocabulary, let alone a part of who you are. You cite all of your husband's problems as an EXCUSE and a JUSTIFICATION that entitles you do whatever you want to do. He MAY well have things that need working of for himself, but you aren't going to get that chance, he will have NO motivation to change for you in ways that might make a few things better, because you are still focuse on your right to use the "Marital Nuclear Bomb" anytime you decide it's "right for YOU."


Enough of this. You don't want any help. Why keep wasting your time and our time?


BTW, it's interesting to read that Larry178 knows who you are. It's also interesting that he has NOT posted on this thread.

Larry178, you out there? Care to weigh in on how well you know this woman and her husband?

Troll? Warts, club, and all.

Only a prude would say that.


BZZZ! WRONG! Sex is beautiful with or without romantic love. It is the active sharing of life's most intense experiences. At its best, it is also a nonverbal conversation. Sometimes the message is love, but othertimes the message is just I think you're sexy! If all I wanted was to get off, I have toys for that. Sex is a shared experience, and it can be just as satisfying with a friend as with a romantic partner or spouse.


Well I've had male friends all my life, and it's a lot more complicated than that. You see, when a woman calls a woman a slut, it's because of her sexual behavior. When a man calls a woman a slut, it's mostly because she's stupid. Intelligent, educated women are judged by an entirely different system.

Before I was married, I had guys tell me I'm glad it was with you and not ____. My reputation in high school and beyond was always that of a good girl no matter what I actually did. Boys would sometimes tell me - I would have asked you out earlier but I assumed you had a boyfriend.

My last OM, in spite of the fact that I NEVER used the L word with him, told said to me, "I will always love you because you made me feel like a whole man again." I had already been with him many times at that point. He had nothing to gain by telling me this. There was only one reason for him to say it: because he meant it, or at least the last half of it.

And then there is my husband. His sister used to set him up with her friends who were all fundamentalists so they planned to wait until marriage. He had nothing but contempt for them. Couldn't stand them. Had to tell his sister no more set-ups. He told me once that guys who have hang ups about their wives or gfs sexual pasts are idiots. It's much better to have someone who knows what they're doing.

Yes, I've been tested for STDs. All tests normal. Everything in life carries a risk.

familycomesfirst

No they don't. If I had told them I was looking to leave my husband or told them I wanted a romantic relationship they would have been honest with me and told me that's not what they were looking for. They were very upfront with what they wanted, and so was I. And several of them were my friends for years before we got involved sexually.


And that was different from what I was doing how?


LOL! One of my OMs did get caught. He decided to reform, go monogamous. He's been that way for two years. He still kept in touch with me even though the geographical distance would have made it impossible to get together even if we wanted to. I am the only OW he kept in contact with. His wife wanted to expose me to my husband but she decided against it because she knew from his emails to me vs. emails to other women that I was special and he would have been pissed if she had done anything to hurt me.


I already have plenty of pounds! It's not about looks, it's about accomodation.


"Objectify" is just a codeword that anti-sex neo-feminists use. These men were not getting anything from me that I wasn't also getting from them.


Good advice. Thanks.

MelodyLane,

I agree. A ****** is someone who has sex for money. She does not have sex to enjoy herself. She barters it in order to get something else. For example, a woman who sleeps with her boss to get a promotion is a ******. Another example, women who don't like sex but do it anyway in order to get love are ******.

I, on the other hand, enjoy sex. It is it's own reward. I don't do it reluctantly in order to gain compensation or favors. Therefore, I am certainly not a ****** no matter how many times you repeat the word. Buy a dictionary next time, prude <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Foreverhers,

Try to respond to what I actually write, deary and not some drivel you made up in your head.

I already said it was wrong for me to cheat on my husband. It was wrong for me to have sex with other women's husbands. That's where I was wrong.

But this thread has gotten into a whole other area of sex without love. Let's talk about my life when I was single and not cheating on anyone. Back then I did occasionally have friends with benefits. What I'm saying is, in THAT situation where no one is being cheated on and everyone is honest about what they want, that is the situation where nothing is wrong. That is the only thing I'm defending. I am NOT defending infidelity.

And by the way, Secular Humanism does NOT advocate infidelity or moral relativism. When I cheated I acted against the moral code of Secular Humanism and I knew it was wrong at the time and did it anyway. Just like there are Christians here who knew it was wrong and did it anyway. How DARE you bash Secular Humanists, you bigot! Do you see me here bashing Christians? Do you? No, because I'm not a bigot. If you want to learn about what SecHum really is I'd be happy to discuss it, but don't go bashing something you don't understand. For the record, if there is anyone here who has a problem with me being a Secular Humanist you can go f- yourself up the butt with a cactus.

Yes, hawgs and alley cats in heat would agree with you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Well, this "prude" doesn't have to buy a dictionary, I have one online!

wh0re Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hawr, hohr or, often, hoor] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, wh0re, whor·ing.
–noun 1. a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse, usually for money; prostitute; harlot; strumpet.


So you see, the definition of wh0re does not require that one get paid! Therefore, this definition would fit by your own admission. Lets call a spade a spade, why don't we? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frankly, I have more respect for a prostitute than an unpaid wh0re. At least a prostitute is smart enough to get paid for putting out. You walk away empty handed for your services.

MelodyLane,


But that's just it - I DON"T walk away empty handed. I get a wonderful sexual experience and the knowledge that I made someone else feel good too. But the thing is, I want that experience with my husband. And that is why I'm here.

It's so sad that you think of sex as something only men can enjoy. You know if you have trouble with orgasms, there are ways to fix that. I can talk with you about it if you want to. There's no reason women can't have just as much fun during sex as men do.

This is so laughable! I respond to what YOU wrote and you see it as "all made up in my head." If this doesn't sound like a committed Wayward Wife.....??? Hear only what you want to hear.




Oh goody. Why was it wrong? Could it possibly have anything to do what Marriage is all about? What about sex with other unmarried men who are NOT your husband? As YOU said, SOME of the affairs were with married men, thus some were NOT married.






No it hasn't. YOU want to make it so, but we are talking about MARRIAGE. Don't confuse being single with being married and don't confuse LOVE with LUST.






Not in the least interested in talking about what you did or didn't do when you were SINGLE. This site, and even this thread, is about Marriage, not singlehood.






Hate to disagree with you, but yes it does. It advocates the individual is "god" and can do whatever they think is "right."





Yep, you sure do. Read on.





Yes you are. It really is plain to see.





hmmm....not in the least bigoted.

Of course I don't think of sex as something that only men can enjoy.

What is sad is that you don't understand that a woman does not have to be a wh0re to enjoy sex. Many women can and do enjoy sex without being wh0res. She doesn't have to be a hawg* to have a satisfying sex life.

*my apologies to hawgs for the comparison <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Aph, I just want you to know that I am not fooled by this false bravado.

You and I both know that happiness does not come from living like a skank. If you were so happy, you wouldn't be here. Happiness comes from living right.

You won't be able to shut up that screaming little voice deep down inside for long. I know you can hear it. It will get louder and louder and louder.

http://www.sound-effect.com/sounds1/pigs/big_pig_snort.wav

Wow...

Normally, I DETEST threads that are full of name calling.

This one is kinda fun tho...both sides are neck deep in it.

Why can't we all just get along? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Oh, and please, mark me down as a "prude" as well. I seem to fit Aph's definition of such rather well actually. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not bigoted? A few people who believe in God may have a differing opinion. You snidely chide "fundementalists" because you WANT to be able to do whatever YOU want to do, regardless of any "right or wrong."

As for your husband's comment about wanting someone who "knows what they are doing," he's certainly got that in you doesn't he? That's also, btw, a typical "reason" men give to enable THEM to have sex without any commitments.

Anyway, you can tell him when you confess your multiple adulteries that you were just trying to gain more experience for him so you will better "know what you are doing" in bed with him," assuming he can "perform" for you to your expectations. Otherwise you may have to go get some more knowledge to apply to your marriage.

Give me a break. You are so lost in yourself it's really quite sad.




Yes it is. And it's an EXCLUSIVE shared experience in marriage. If you don't want that, get a divorce and go back to your "single ways."





And now he has his heart's desire. Of course he had contempt for them. HE couldn't get is rocks off with them because they "answered" to a higher power than LUST and Selfishness. But now he has you...the "prize catch" of wives, complete with all your past, present, and future, "experience" to make his life so much better.





Secular Humanism and Moral Relativity at its best!





Yep, no doubt about it, you are very special. He "decided" to go monogamous...lol.

He got CAUGHT. His wife made it plain, Adultery is NOT acceptable in a marriage. Not ever.

That he stayed in contact with you is just typical fare for Wayward Spouses (which is what he was). That his wife won't expose only shows she has a lack of understanding. Why not invite her to this site and see how the members advise HER on how to handle the exposure question.

You have no regrets and no remorse.

Again, you ARE an Adulteress, despite your protestations that "this time" it will be different simply because you now think adultery is "wrong." Wrong according to who's Standards? Certainly not yours and certainly not the what the Word of God teaches. So who's Standard is "enough" to keep you from committing more adultery in the future when you NEXT "change your mind?"





Yep, you've made it abundantly clear that everyone who believes in FIDELITY in Marriage is a "prude" and you are right with your Moral Relativism.

And by the way, did I mention you've also made it abundantly clear that you are a bigot too?


"Sex is supposed to be a beautiful gift between 2 people who love each other."

In your bigotry you missed the whole point. That phrase is talking about MARRIAGE, not rutting around as you prefer confusing lust with love.

Nice try though.

So as a married person, if you firmly believe the above knowing its counter to all the Marriage Builder's principles (not to mention highly offensive to most members), WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I will put a call out to Larry here. If you know this womans forst and last name, please email it to me so that I can get the required info to contact her H myself. I am sick that this man is in the dark while this "woman" makes a fool of him by being the town ho.

Well you asked so I gonna tell you. If you want to work on yourself, here's where you start. The above in bold IS NOT a minor detail or simply collateral damage.

You might want to seriously consider you may not be a good candidate for marriage.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Gawd...I hope you teach any children that you have or might have better than this or they can expect to be procreating right and left.

Your daughter will be one of the little girls lined up to service the little boys behind the bleachers. And your son will be the one insisting on this pleasure from all the little girls. <gag>



"active sharing of life's most intense experiences" what kind of crock are you spewing????

Sounds like a really lame pickup line to me.

Why am I picturing that little dog that keeps wanting to hump your leg...and you cannot shake them off??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

committed

Adding...if you really felt this way...you would not be keeping it a secret from your H. I challenge you to TELL him now...he might be as understanding as you would be if he was out there doing his philanthropic duty. We need more altruistic people like you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The more I read you Aph, the more I'm convinced you have a personal subconscious-axe to grind against males who use and objectify women. Its as though you're trying to prove you can sexually compete with them and/or are equal, thereby getting back at them. Big ole' chip on your shoulder.

Makes me believe you knew a male in your young life who abused you in some way, hence the chip.

Aph, do you really want to experience this with your husband? Will that be enough for you? Do you really want marriage and all that it means? Marriage is a relationship of EXTRAORDINARY CARE that includes ROMANTIC EXCLUSIVITY and PERMANANCE between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN-Those words in all caps are Dr. Harley's words regarding marriage-it is what is taught here...Is that what you want? If so, why? I'm not being flip with you, honestly, I'm asking a serious question that I think YOU very much need to consider the answer to...

See, I think, whether you realize it yet or not, that you use your sexuality as currency for male attention...You mistake that attention for admiration and adoration...I'm not saying that you or women in general don't enjoy sex...I can assure you that I am no prude...but I think that even you somewhere deep down realize that the kind of sex that you are exhaulting here is very empty and the satisfaction is quite short lived...If it was really as satisfying as you claim, you wouldn't still be searching, no, you would instead be basking in a self satisified glow and be ever so happy, and we both know that that is NOT the case, is it?

Drop the defenses Aph...Your anger and lashing out here I see as intense deep hurt...Do you agree?

Mrs. W

Aph - I didn't catch your age, do you mind telling me?

I used to think similar to you, now I don't. I don't know what changed me, but I no longer want to do "favors" like the ones you describe for these men. M

y xMM told me too that I woke him up to the fact he could have more in an R, that he is desirable. He claimed his wife didn't make him feel loved. After we broke it off him and his wife separated and later D'ed. He moved to another city and met yet another MW to get involved with. This OW actually left her H and now they are married and have a child. (Funny, he claimed he was sterile from testicular cancer... liar.) He got some big time job and moved his "new" family to Japan. His little boy from his first marriage almost never sees him. His 1st wife moved back home to some state up north. Even when he still living in Texas he hardly saw his son when he'd come down to visit. The little boy would stay with his grandparents. He proclaims he loves him, and I'm sure he does, he just loves himself more. He's the type that will always need his ego stroked, he thinks very highly of himself. Lord help his OW turned W... someday she'll be dealing with OW, I'd bet my right arm on it.

I'm curious... how would you feel if your H was the one doing this? Would it bother you at all? That's one thing that has changed about how I view all this. I do my best to treat my H the way I want to be treated.

Remorse detection meter pegged to the negative...

Aph, when/if you get to the point of feeling ANY remorse for what you've done, then you may be ready to START working on yourself.

Aph...

What is/was your relationship with your father like?

Mrs. W

ForeverHers,


And what makes you think that? Because Pat Robertson told you so? How many actual Secular Humanists do you know personally? I guarantee you didn't find it in any Secular Humanist document or from the words of any Secular Humanist. If you want to learn about other people's beliefs, you do NOT seek that information from the Christian Broadcasting Network. You seek it from people who actually have studied it.

And btw, you can't be a bigot just for disagreeing with Christianity or some other worldview. You're only a bigot if you think your religion has the market cornered on good behavior or you parrot lies about what others believe without asking them what they believe. I should know what I believe more than you would know. You don't see me telling you, well Christians believe this and Christians believe that.

But if you want to redeem yourself and prove your not a bigot, how about reading the Affirmations of Humanism? After all, I've read the Bible.

The Affirmations of Humanism Are Here:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=affirmations

The Affirmations of Humanism:
A Statement of Principles
We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

--And ForeverHers, I meant it when I said I won't tolerate intolerance of my beliefs. I accept that you are Christian; you must accept that I am a Secular Humanist. If you can't do that I will put you on my ignore list indefinitely.

NOT FH, but please put ME on your ignore list. But keep in mind that you will NOT ignore the King of Kings come judgement day and for that I am sorry for you.

From Penalty Kill


Bingo.

This one question is worth a thousand wh0re/rutting/pig pen comments.

Aph, this question deserves some thought.

PK

MelodyLane,

I already decided to change how I live. You do not have to convince me that all sex, including premarital sex, outside marriage is wrong. I agree extramarital sex is wrong. I will not agree with you on premarital sex, but that is not necessary for me to fix my marriage.

You also do not have to try to convince me that my OMs all had some secret contempt for me in order for me to choose monogamy. It's not necessary for me to believe these men are pure evil with no feelings of genuine friendship in order for me to remain in my new monogamous state. We are arguing about all the wrong things.

What got us off on this tangent is that I was trying to explain (not excuse!) why I made such bad choices. MrsW suggested a need for approval might be a factor. I would say it's more a need to be desired.

The problem is, what I wanted all along was to get that feeling from my husband. I had given up on trying to feel that way with him and sought that feeling elsewhere. I'm not trying to justify it. I know it was wrong. But that is what I now want from my husband.

Yep. You have said something that is spot on. The problem is that those other men didn't desire you they used you. You were a means to an end. You need to find a way back towards finding self respect and dignity.

I have four things to say then I'm out of this thread.

1. Men do NOT think women who enjoy sex are sluts. Good grief, we're not in Victorian times here. Men, even men who are liberated, think women who'll have sex with them at the drop of a hat are "easy game". Most women dislike and have no respect for men players and philanderers for the same reason.

2. I do things with my H sexually that would make most people's hair curl. It's because there's trust and love and intimacy and safety and I am a very highly sexual person.

3. I talk to another FWW on another board (not TOW BTW) who was a prostitute when she was young. What she said about the men who visited her was EXACTLY what you are saying about the men who had sex with you.

4. I am not against premarital sex.

Aph, do you really want to experience this with your husband? Will that be enough for you? Do you really want marriage and all that it means? Marriage is a relationship of EXTRAORDINARY CARE that includes ROMANTIC EXCLUSIVITY and PERMANANCE between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN-Those words in all caps are Dr. Harley's words regarding marriage-it is what is taught here...Is that what you want? If so, why? I'm not being flip with you, honestly, I'm asking a serious question that I think YOU very much need to consider the answer to...

See, I think, whether you realize it yet or not, that you use your sexuality as currency for male attention...You mistake that attention for admiration and adoration...I'm not saying that you or women in general don't enjoy sex...I can assure you that I am no prude...but I think that even you somewhere deep down realize that the kind of sex that you are exhaulting here is very empty and the satisfaction is quite short lived...If it was really as satisfying as you claim, you wouldn't still be searching, no, you would instead be basking in a self satisified glow and be ever so happy, and we both know that that is NOT the case, is it?

Drop the defenses Aph...Your anger and lashing out here I see as intense deep hurt...Do you agree?

Mrs. W,


Yes that's the whole point! But everybody seems to be telling me I'm wrong for wanting it in the first place - That sex is only something women give in order to get something else. I see it as something shared. IMO, the wrongness is from seeking it out from other people, not seeking it from my own husband!


The answer is that I think I was wrong in thinking I could have sex on the side without it affecting the rest of my marriage. I want the emotional intimacy that goes along with monogamy. Also, I think maybe I just need to be more creative in getting what I want from my husband. Maybe I was wrong is seeing him as a lost cause in bed.


Now how am I supposed to argue with you when you're actually making sense? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But seriously, that is a good point. I may well be doing that. That sort of focused attention and enthusiasm during sex is what I've been trying to get from my husband for years.


Well, it can actually put me in a good mood for an entire week. But it's not worth creating nonsexual problems in my marriage that may not have been there before because my attention and energies have been focused elsewhere. I really did think I could juggle - and give him just as much attention as before. But I have heard too many BHs say they knew something was wrong before they knew she was cheating. And just thinking about that makes me break down and cry.


Well a large part of it is being misunderstood. There are some posters who are better at issueing slogans than they are at really trying to listen to what I'm saying. I've had words put in my mouth countless times, and it's very frustrating. But I think you finally get it. Thanks for listening <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

familycomesfirst,

I'm 37. If my husband did what I did, I wouldn't have much right to complain unless it was with his ex-wife or someone he'd actually leave me for. If he LEFT me for someone else, that would devastate me. And I don't like that he keeps a naked pic of his ex-wife, not because it's another woman but because it's his EX-WIFE. Ugh. But if he say, had a ONS, I could get over it - especially if it made it easier for him to recover from what I did.

Mrs.Wondering,

It's good now. It wasn't always. He had an anger control problem and was mildly physically abusive. By that I mean he left no marks but the severity of the punishment depended more on his mood than on what we actually did. There were no injuries until my mom got her black eye but there was a great deal of fear and a great deal of yelling (from mom too, even moreso actually.)

However, when I was 19 and he gave her that black eye she called the cops and ordered him out of the house for 10 days. After about 3, he agreed to anger management counseling. Best decision he ever made. It really worked wonders. Too bad it didn't happen sooner. But that's the past and I'm not one of those people who is obsessed with wrongs done in childhood. He did the work to reform himself. That's good enough for me.

Thank you for answering my questions. I hope you find a way to make your M better. Best of luck on telling your H about your affairs.

hopeandpray,


They desired me sexually, which is what I'm talking about here. If they didn't desire me sexually, they would have been ONS, not affairs. If they were using me, then I was also using them. But I don't see how "using" can be mutual. But that being said, yes I need to find my way back.

The Affirmations of Humanism:
A Statement of Principles

We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

Good. So are Christians.


We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.

Obviously. Denial of God and the substituting of the created for the Creator is fundamental to Secular Humanism. No believer "denigrates" human intelligence. In fact, some of the greatest scientific minds have been believers themselves. At the fundamental basement is a preconceived bias that denies God and takes "on blind faith" that all things happened by chance and 'evolution.'


We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.

No problem here. It is basic to Christian belief also and NOT the exclusive province of those who deny God.


We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

So do Christians. And I'm sure even the Pilgrims, among others, would also share in that belief. But "repressive minorities" are already in control and "liberal elites" are every bit as dangerous and repressive of freedoms. You have no corner on this even if you might consider yourself to be a "Secular Progressive."



We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.

Interesting. Then you set yourself squarely against the Constitution. There is no "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. All that is banned is a "State Religion," and THAT is precisely what many Secular Humanists are proposing and pushing for. The "State religion of Atheism," based not upon fact, but upon a presupposition that based entirely upon FAITH, not fact.

What the Constitution GUARANTEES is not only freedom FROM an "Official State Religion," it guarantees the "free exercise of religion" and that "Congress shall pass NO laws abridging the free exercise of religion." There IS no "public" versus "private" stipulation. NO means NONE. Under NO circumstances.

I won't bother to go into the beliefs of the founding fathers or of subsequent leaders, but it is CLEAR from history that most of them felt that a belief in Almighty God was essential to both the prospering and the survival of this nation.



We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.

Nothing wrong with negotiation or compromise as long as there are clearly defined boundaries beyond which compromise becomes capitulation and surrender. Fundamental to this position is that there ARE absolutes that are "right and wrong" and not all things are "relative."

What you compromised was the self determined RIGHTNESS of monogamy in marriage, no matter what the marriage might actually be like. It was a voluntary commitment and vow base in the "absolute" definition of exclusivity in traditional marriage. It was NOT open to "negotiation" or "compromise."


We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.

Uh huh. As long as it "limits" the discrimination to Christians and the beliefs of Christianity, not to mention the Constitution of the United States. Eliminating "discrimination and intolerance" MEANS that the traditional sanctity and meaning of Marriage is "compromised" away in favor of "swinging," "open marriages," redefinition of "marriage" to allow homosexual "marriages," and essentially surrendering all things that might somehow "impinge" upon the "wants and desires" of an individual. That IS what Secular Humanism is all about. The individual is "god" and can decide for themselves what IS and what IS NOT "right or wrong" regardless of what anyone else might think.


We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.

No problem here. Christians have been committed to supporting the disadvantaged (i.e.,poor) and the handicapped (physically and mentally) for a very long time, much longer than "Secular Humanism" has been. All "SC" is doing is appropriating something that's been done for a long time by others and is NOT unique to Secular Humanism.


We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.

So does the church of God. There is ONE church of God and it includes ALL believers regardless of " race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity." And working together for the common good of humanity is fundamental to a belief in God and that all humans are created in the image of God. Perhaps you might even recognize the second greatest commandment stated by Jesus; "Love your neighbor as yourself." Secular Humanism may want to appropriate that commandment as if they the only ones to have "found a better way," but they also categorically reject the first commandment that precedes it.


We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.

A noble cause to be sure. But again, not the exclusive domain of Secularists.


We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.

Nothing wrong here, unless you define "enjoying life" as a license to sin and for self-gratification at the expense of others. That IS what adultery is about, you know.


We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.

Now this one, given your history, should be interesting to see you explain. Just what IS "moral excellence" and WHO defines it? What, or who, establishes what is "good moral behavior" and what is "bad moral behavior" independent of the desires or rationalizations of the individual, be they Secular Humanist, Christian, or any other person or society?


We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

ahhh…the elevation of the selfish desires of the individual to do whatever THEY think they want to do. This IS the crux of Secular Humanism. Moral Relativism. Denial of anyone else's rights if they might "interfere" with whatever the individual wants or desires.

Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations

No problem, as long as your aspirations don't impinge on my aspirations or the marriage aspirations of other Faithful Spouses.


to express their sexual preferences

Ah yes, the "right" to do whatever they want sexually, with whomever they want, whenever they want. Want, want, want. "Morals?" What morals?

Express your sexual preferences all you want WITHIN your marriage and your ONE mate. Leave everyone else out because YOUR "sexual preferences" are certain to adversely impact the aspirations of someone else's spouse.


to exercise reproductive freedom

And you have that right. Abstinence. Contraception. When, and if, you will have children. But you do not have the right to kill another person to "exercise reproductive freedom." The right to say "no" and keep your legs together.

Alpaerisis, you have the "right" to drive a car anywhere you want to go, but you DO NOT have the right to "drive drunk" (careless abuse of your right to drink and your right to drive) because YOUR choices can have a devastating effect, even a fatal effect, on others who had no "say" in your choices.

But when you CHOOSE to engage in sex and a child results, you do NOT have the right to choose death for that child. Of course, that's my opinion, regardless of the fact that the child is genetically completely different from the mother. If you truly believe abortion is okay in some "extreme cases," then you should be against all abortion for the convenience of the mother who CHOSE to engage in sex KNOWING that that is precisely HOW children are made. Rape, for example, is quite a bit different from willful adultery.


to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

No problem here, and access to health care is the LAW of the land. To "die with dignity" is also not a problem. So how do DEFINE death with dignity versus death some other way….aborting a viable, healthy baby?


We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.

Yet you have consistently and repeatedly violated every one of your stated "common moral decencies."

"Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences."

This is nothing more than the clarion call of Secular Humanism…that ALL morals are RELATIVE. YOU had "great sex," therefore your adulteries were "moral" and devoid of negative consequences. There are NO "absolutes, and get any group together and they can decide for themselves what is "normative" in the "morals department."

And that IS what you have been defending and using to justify your choices to commit multiple adulteries with married and unmarried men. It's all "relative." NOW you say that they were "wrong." Why? If they are wrong now, they were wrong then, and they will continue to be wrong in the future.

But you don't see it that way. There is no remorse evident, just another desire to "get what you think you want now….your husband." One more time, it's all about "me, me, me! And what I want." With your commitment to Moral Relativism that is inherent in Secular Humanist, WHY would anyone believe that you "suddenly" have decided that adultery is wrong "at this time" and was "wrong to engage in previously?" What is to "keep you" from "changing your mind again when morals are "discovered together" and declared "normative" by group decision (whether that group is a group of one or of several)?

You want a "test" of the consequences of your Secular Humanistic position on this subject? The divorce rate has never been higher. Kids do "just fine" in a fractured marriage, or no marriage at all. The list is long as to what the consequences have been of this philosophy.


We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.

Bull. You want "no boundaries." That's what Secular Humanism offers. "Your morals are whatever YOU want them to be." Very compassionate, if I do say so.



We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.

Oh boy. And no one else is?


We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.

Okay Carl Sagan. What other citizens are there? I know, "billions and billions" (Carl Sagan impression).

Discovering the wonderful way in which God has made and ordered the universe has LONG been a pursuit of believers. So what makes this the "exclusive" terrain of Secular Humanists?


We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.

I'll bet you are Secular Humanists are OPEN to "novel ideas" and love to "seek new departures" in our thinking of what Morals are, especially the morals that might "restrict" their "right" to do whatever they want to do.

How about the "untested claims" that Jesus Christ actually did RISE from the dead? No, if one were to admit that, then it might impact their "Morals" and their concept of "right and wrong," and who, actually, IS in control that we are all ultimately "answerable to."



We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.

"Theologies of despair?" Give me a break. Try to "name names" and be specific."

"Ideologies of violence?" Is that anything like Radical Islamists? Naaaa, can't be just that, Rosie said Christians are just as bad, so do you agree with Rosie?


We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.

Right. But your ACTIONS speak much louder than the words. And you have no real understanding of what "blind faith" really is, do you? Ask your husband when you tell him what you've been up to.

By the way, have you heard the one that goes like this: "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, and soul"?
"Do good to them who hate you and despitefully use you?"
Ever bothered to read 1Corinthians 13?
"Forgive AS you have been forgiven by your heavenly Father for your sins."

Ooops, NO "sin" in the Secular Humanist "playbook," that would be "judging" behavior as "wrong."


We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

A "noble" wish. Too bad the actuality is FAR short of the goal.




I do accept that you are a Secular Humanist. THAT is the point. I disagree that Secular Humanism is THE answer, or even a "good answer" in that it's underlying philosophy is "if it feels good to me, do it!" That philosophy has been "tried" and found false as a "guide" for good Moral behavior, but IS the "enabler" of the pursuit of selfish desires no matter who might get hurt in the process.

If you think the "answer" is to put me on your "ignore" list, feel free to do so. You don't want to deal with truth anyway, that is very evident from all of your postings to date.


What does working on myself mean?

How about starting with a clear understanding of, and definition of what, are YOUR own personal Standards and then what your Boundaries?

I would submit that if Secular Humanism and Moral Relativism are your Standards, your desire for a loving marriage with your husband is unlikely. Your Boundaries are also very lacking, or at least suspect, based upon your responses to other posts above, (i.e., it would be "okay" if your husband had a "revenge affair").

Can you confirm or deny, Aph?

And pssssssst Aph. You have not earned the "F" in "FWW" honey.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

ForeverHers,

If our Secular Humanism discussion goes beyond this post I think it should go to either private message or topic marked off topic or something. We don't want to get too derailed. So this is my last public response on SecHum, although there's some other stuff in here as well.

I'll address the topic of remorse first. I'm still getting to know people on these boards. Some people I trust, some people I don't, and some people I just don't know about or haven't met. In just about every Internet forum there is always someone who will poke at any perceived weakness, enjoy your suffering and rejoice in your tears. This is especially true if they are unhappy themselves. I do feel remorse, but I don't feel comfortable expressing it publicly online. I don't want it to become a source of entertainment for some twisted person. on to the rest of the post...

I'm so glad you've seen so many similarities of Humanism to Christianity. You see there IS some common ground. Nothing in the document is meant to be the exclusive terrain of Secular Humanism. It is the particular combination of things that makes it Secular Humanism. The similarities to Christianity and other religions, combined with the differences.

You are completely wrong about the Constitution, though, but this is the last thing I'll say on that subject:
I've actually read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and Thomas Jefferson's letter (in a book of his writings that I have) explaining how the no establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment IS MEANT TO BE INTERPRETED as a wall of separation between church and state. May I also remind you that the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. The SC is in charge of interpreting the Constitution. That is their job. And they agree with me, not you. They rule by precedent, not dogma.


Well first let me remind you that I have expressly said that my adultery is not justified by anything, especially not Secular Humanism. That being said, moral excellence is defined by the laws of human nature. For example, all people in all times and in all cultures are hurt by false imprisonment, torture, excessive denial of personal liberties, physical attacks on their person, etc.

As much as the cultural relativists would like to pretend that living in a different culture makes you a different species, human beings the world over have SOME things in common. That's why Humanist organizations promote universal Human Rights. So the moral good is to avoid things that hurt people (yes like adultery), and the moral excellent is to do things that promote the welfare of people and the human species in general. (Although, we have concern for animals as well but that's a much more complicated topic.) So, if someone is going to be hurt by what you do, you shouldn't do it.


The only example there that could possibly be defined as selfish is abortion. But look what happened when it was outlawed. Just as many abortions happened and women also died. So, do you want to prevent deaths by providing choices other than abortion? Or do you want to outlaw it and bring back the bloody coat hanger? Which one would be better for society and result in fewer deaths? I don't want to get dragged into an abortion debate, so I'll just say this. There is a movement of centrists who would like to unite the right and left in the common goal of reducing the number of abortions. Outlawing abortion won't achieve that aim. Been there, done that, and it failed. Time to try something different.


Better that they be in committed relationships with each other than in fake marriages with unsuspecting straights who become devasted when they find out their husband is getting blow jobs from men. I'd hate to be that woman, wouldn't you? Morals are about what hurts people, what harms people. Gays being off by themselves don't hurt anybody. Gays being fake-married to straights? That hurts a lot of people.


No, death with dignity means giving a terminally ill person some autonomy so that if they are suffering and want to go sooner rather than later, and on their own terms, that they can. This is not the ideal situation by any means. The ideal situation would be being able to make the dying person free from all pain and discomfort. But when that's not possible, it's the individual who should decide and not the government. After all, it's the individual who is suffering the pain or in some cases loss of self.


Yes, we've established that. Unfortunately, I have no time machine so I'll just have to do my best reform myself and clean up the mess when my husband learns the truth.

I will say this, though. Outside the realm of decisions concerning sexual behavior, I adhere to my moral principles very well. That doesn't justify the times that I deviate - my point is only that instead of having a moral problem generally the problem is confined to one area. That's because anytime I let my emotions override my brain (or conscience), 99.9% of the time that decision has something to do with sex.


You do realize, of course, that the words "normative standards" mean the exact opposite of relative, don't you?

I'll give you an example of a normative, NOT relative, moral standard - torture is always wrong even when the United States calls it "extraordinary rendition" or "creative interrogation tactics" or whatever else is the new euphemism of the day.


Nope. I already said I was wrong even by my own standards. The point of this conversation in the beginning was to figure out why I was cheating, not to justify it.


Yes, exactly. I agree 100% You are confusing reasons with justifications. I was exploring REASONS why I led myself astray, not justifications for it. As for me changing my mind, I didn't. I knew it was wrong and did it anyway. I created rationalizations, sure, but people do that no matter what their religious or philosophical background.


Theologies that say people are basically evil, good people will go to ****** just for what they believe, God's will or karma justifies social or economic oppression, if you fly airplanes into buildings killing thousands of "infidels" you will be rewarded when you die, changing your mind about religion means you deserve death, or violence is justified in the name of God (or anything else, really). I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

BINGO!



Rosie is a naive westerner who knows nothing about how Islam is actually practiced. Islam is at least 500 years behind Christianity - gotta give credit where credit is due - Christianity IS better than Islam if you judge by how they are practiced in this current day and age. Humanists were the ones who led the effort to get Dr. Younis Sheik released from jail when he was facing the death penalty for blasphemy in Pakistan. Islamic states are messing with MY people by charging them with apostasy and blasphemy. Putting death fatwas on their heads! I have given Muslims quite an earful on YouTube, believe me! But don't get me started on Islam - I could go into an endless rant. Muslims are messing with your people, too, you know but Secular Humanists would never do that. We are very pro-democracy.


Now, now. You know full well that plenty of formerly wayward spouses of Christian background are here, too. People have their weaknesses no matter what their theology. And I'm here, aren't I?

That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

But you are NOT entitled to your own facts. SecHum doesn't say anything like that. It's "If someone will feel bad, don't do it" and "If NOBODY will feel bad, it's probably okay." I don't mind honest differences of opinion and even criticism of Humanism, but it can't be a strawman. I'm not going to let you get away with saying something about Humanism that isn't true.

Again, those two philosophies are not compatible. You can't have normative standards if everything is relative. The International Humanist and Ethical Union would not be cooperating with the United Nations in promoting universal human rights if we believed rights were relative to place or culture.


1- Christian marriages are not the only happy marriages.
2- It's not that it would be okay, it's that if it would take some of his pain away, it would be worth any pain I would have to endure. And just knowing that it would less his pain would reduce my own. Unfortunately, there are some people on the board who have said revenge sex didn't make them feel any better. In that case it would not be worth it.

Resilient,

Child abuse is fairly common. Mine (physical) was relatively mild and my dad eventually got help and reformed himself. See my post to Mrs.Wondering for more details if you are interested. Because he changed, I don't see any point to holding anything against him now. We get along these days just fine. So I don't really see any point in blaming my waywardness on my childhood. It's in the past.

BTW, in case anyone is wondering, I don't even spank my kids. And they are doing great.

Are you talking sexual abuse?

LIE.

I vote for the coat hanger as crimes are supposed to happen in back alleys. And if the criminal happens to die in the commision of the crime, so be it.

There are other forms of abuse aside from physical dear. Don't think for a moment your children are not being affected by your marital discord and your very inappropriate response of serial adultery. They, children, are more in tune with whats going on than any parent would like to think or admit.

Your claim "they are doing great" tells me you are still so far in the FOG. Quite ordinary and typical of a WW.

Honest to gawd, do you think this is our first time at the Rodeo. Lets be real, shall we.

Working On One Self

[color:"blue"] Lession 1:

Stop Lying
Be Honest and Real [/color]

Just for the record, APH is very much not a troll. I do not engage in her threads simply because I have already given her all the advice I can on another forum. She sees enough of my writing on various threads to the point where there is no purpose in me addressing her directly.

I asked her to come to MB to get help. That help has been given both with 2X4 and with compassion. Frankly I have NO clue why she has had the affairs she has had; multiple affairs. Unless I can get a fingernail under why someone does what they do, I am largely ineffective in providing advice. So I don't.

If she were the "Hairdresser from Marietta," which APH knows what I mean, I could offer advice, which would be quickly rejected. HFM is a state of mind that is pure critter and not only proud of it, those so afflicted complain loudly when anyone points out their critterness.

I don't think APH is pure critter, yet she HAS had multiple affairs; addiction to hedonism is about all I have come up with. Try to help her if you can anyway you can, I think she has stuck around here and taken the rocks because she really wants to find herself and direct her life in a different way.

Remember folks, it is almost always baby steps and time and repeated lessons.

Larry

[color:"red"] She is a Freeloader. She may have been a Renter at some time in the distant past, but not recently. She has never been a Buyer, and I do not think she ever will be a Buyer. The best she can do is Renter.[/color]


Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Aph,

You and I are almost totally opposite and I have absolutely no idea how to offer any kind of help for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But I care and I'm praying for you to find peace from the same source as me or another.

Ace

I have no problem with taking a discussion about Secular Humanism to another thread. If you'd like to do that, feel free to do so.

So let me simply conclude that if Secular Humanism is your chosen "faith," then you have violated several of the principles of that faith the same as anyone who does something in opposition to the tenets of their given faith.
The "question" will always be, IF someone violates their chosen faith tenets, how do they "get restored" to a "right walk," how do they receive (or qualify for) forgiveness, and what KEEPS them "walking in their faith" as per the tenets of that faith "from this day forward?"




This is a "strawman" argument. With the exception of Larry178 (who has not even posted on this thread), there would appear to be no one that you know on MB, let alone those who have chosen to spend some of their time responding to you. You chose to post on MB ostensibly because you want to know how to have the "best chance" of saving your marriage. Whether or not you "feel comfortable" expressing feelings of remorse over your affairs is neither here nor there. What you need to understand is that no one currently BELIEVES you are in the least remorseful for your affairs based entirely upon what you HAVE written (i.e., being a "goddess of love" to these Other Men, having great sex, not being at all concerned or remorseful for the enormous pain your actions have inflicted on the spouses of the married men you were "helping" in the sex department, etc.).

That you now claim to be remorseful is hopeful, but there has been no indication that the stated remorse is anything more than a statement. It has not been "backed up," if you will, by anything you have said or done. In fact, the exact opposite is what has been clearly stated in many of your posts. Remorse is not a "blouse" you can put on and take off for convenience. It is an indication of a truly changed philosophy and personality that is now totally inconsistent with continuing sin, and a sincere repentance of past sins that are now abhorrent to the "new you."




Of course there are "similarities" between Secular Humanism and Christianity, just as there are "similarities" between most, if not all, "religions" of the world. One example of that would be that you can find some form of the "Golden Rule" in just about every religion. But the argument you are raising is that "one religion is as good as another" is, in my opinion, a false argument. It is NOT the "points" of a given religion that make it true or false, it is the OBJECT of their faith.

For example, in every religion in the world except for Christianity, everything is a "DO" based faith. Do this, do that, and you MAY be found "good." In Christianity, it is a "DONE" based faith. It based solely upon what Jesus Christ DID FOR US, not on what we "do." ALL people "fall short" of the beliefs of their chosen religion from time to time and, therefore, do not qualify as being "good." The simple reason is that either God exists and is Sovereign, or He does not, in which case it doesn't matter WHAT anyone believes in. IF God exists, then HE "sets the rules" and we don't have a "choice in the matter." We either "do it His way," or we do it "our way."

What you choose as your way (Secular Humanism) does NOT address the ultimate questions of "why am I here," and "what happens after death." Your way places the individual as the "supreme judge" of right and wrong and each individual, or group of like-minded individuals, "gets to" determine what is "right and wrong" for themselves.

For me, the issue is NOT that people who do not believe in God or in Jesus Christ CANNOT lead what are generally accepted as "morally good" lives, they can. The reason is that God has written His moral code on the hearts of ALL men and women. WE choose to accept or reject "His way" because of our sin-nature. Without a life that has been transformed by Christ, we are left with our own selfishness as the "thing" that "sits on the throne of our lives." We "submit" our will only to our own will at any given moment. We become the judge of what is right and wrong for ourselves, based upon what we "want" at any given moment. Therefore right and wrong become "relative" and not absolute. And EACH individual has the "right" of the very same self-determination and the right to "reject" someone else's judgment of what is right and wrong. That is the "normal condition" of fallen mankind, but to have a "fallen mankind" requires that they "fell" from some "higher condition" and that, in turn, requires an "outside of ourselves" standard that "sets the bar" for what is universally "good, bad, right and wrong."
When you finally confess your adulteries to your husband, on what basis should he forgive you and choose to continue your marriage? Put another way, WHY should he believe what you say NOW when all of your actions have PROVEN the exact opposite? If he chooses to forgive you and remain married, on what basis, or to whom, do you both surrender yourselves, your own wills, feelings, wants and desires? It can't be the "god" of Secular Humanism because SC embraces the concept of Moral Relativism.

And no, you can't point to things like the "universal rejection of torture" as being sufficient either. What he is going to experience is the "ultimate" in marital torture, not just once, but several times. I'll have more to say about your example of torture later on, but for now you really need to be thinking about WHY he should choose to do anything other than divorce you and "set you free to do whatever you choose to do." That is, if you truly want to remain married AND build and loving and trusting relationship with him in the future.




Okay, we'll not go off on this tangent unless you want to make another thread for it. So let me simply say that your "interpretation" is based solely upon a writing of Thomas Jefferson and that your "interpretation" is an incorrect application of what he wrote. It is a FACT that the Constitution does NOT include separation of church and state OTHER THAN the prohibition that the Congress cannot establish ONE religion as the "official State Religion" as they had in England and elsewhere. Furthermore, to safeguard that point, the Constitution also GUARANTEES that no law shall be passed (or for that matter "interpreted" by the Supreme Court) that ABRIDGES the free expression of ANY religions ANYWHERE in the United States, and that includes "public places."

When Jefferson is talking about a "wall of separation of church and state," he is referring to the establishment clause of the Constitution that PROHIBITS any one religion from becoming the "State Religion," not to keep the free exercise OF religion out of public places or out of government. What is going on today is the attempt to make "Atheism" the State Religion.

With respect to what you wrote about the Supreme Court, "May I also remind you that the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. The SC is in charge of interpreting the Constitution. That is their job. And they agree with me, not you. They rule by precedent, not dogma," this is NOT what the Supreme Court is supposed to do according to the Constitution. They are NOT the "final arbiter," the people are. The Supreme Court is comprised of individuals just like you and me, and many of their "decisions" have had nothing to do with the Constitution. We can go into that also if you'd like, but again, it should be on a different thread. Suffice it to say, "Roe v. Wade" is just one example of where the Supreme Court has chosen to deny "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" to every aborted baby by claiming that a woman "right to be pregnant or not pregnant" supercedes the rights of everyone else, the baby, the father, anyone. Never mind the FACT the baby is a distinct and genetically different person than the woman, never mind that the VAST majority of abortions are solely for the "convenience" of the woman, never mind that the "moral thing" to do would be to protect the innocent from the harm that could befall them because of the selfish choices of someone else(i.e. those who we would loosely call a "mother"), the Supreme Court is NOT free to amend the Constitution to fit their "whims." And that is precisely what the Supreme Court has done many times. The Constitution is NOT a "living document" that they can pick and choose what to uphold and what not to uphold. It is the STANDARD by which our country operates and provides for how LAWS, and the Constitution itself, can be changed. The Constitution does NOT grant that right to the Supreme Court, it grants it to the PEOPLE by way of, and only by way of, the Constitutional Amendment process, not the "interpretations" or personal biases of 9 men and women who choose to set themselves ABOVE the Constitution and the People.



I agree, adultery is not justified by anything, in fact it is specifically "outlawed" by the Seventh Commandment given to us by the Sovereign Judge and Lord of all people.
Moral excellence is NOT defined by the "laws of human nature," they are defined by God. Only by accepting the presupposition that God does not exist can anyone put "human nature" in God's place. And that raises the question of "what IS the normal nature of Man" and what, other than each individual for themselves, determines what is applicable to all people in the way of behavior, morally good, or otherwise?

You cite torture as an example. Fine. I have no problem with torture being immoral. But how does one DEFINE torture? It is in this area that a careful definition of the word is essential. Who determines WHAT torture is and who determines what a given "mistreatment" of someone else can be classified as "torture?" How much "persuasion" is "acceptable," and therefore NOT "torture," when it becomes necessary to protect others from the "bad morals" and potentially hurtful activities of the person or group they belong to?

Put another way, when do the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?"

IF someone, or some group of people are actively using and embracing torture as a means to impose their will upon others, what is the responsibility of others to oppose them, and to what "extreme" should that opposition be employed? Put another way, if their (the "bad guys") activities don’t directly affect or impact ME personally, why should ANYONE oppose them in any way? Why should anyone attempt to "impose" their standards of right and wrong, morality and immorality, on anyone else? Who "gets to determine"(has both the authority and the Sovereign right to impose their will on everyone else) what those "Standards" of right and wrong, morality and immorality, ARE and why they should be applicable worldwide to everyone regardless of what any individual might decide to choose for themselves?




"if someone is going to be hurt by what you do, you shouldn't do it."

THIS is the "yardstick," the STANDARD, of Secular Humanism? You should't do it?

That leaves the "decision" up to each individual and their "interpretation" of whether or not someone is going to be "hurt" by whatever I choose to do. What are consequences for someone who chooses to "hurt" someone else, or who chooses to do something because THEY don't think it will hurt anyone?

All you are doing is restating the "Golden Rule" concept. If someone believes that it's "okay" to have someone else impose their "lifestyle" on someone else, then it's "fair game" for them to "do unto others" if they would be equally willing to have someone else "do unto them." Survival of the "fittest." "Might makes right." "HURT" is relative and NOT absolute. The Individual gets to determine it for themselves.

The "point" is simple. Without an "external" set of Standards established by someone who is LORD, and therefore has the inherent RIGHT and AUTHORITY to establish them regardless of an individual's personal agreement or disagreement with them, the "morals" and "right and wrong" cannot be anything but "relative" to the whims and desires of individuals. ONLY groups of like minded individuals can seek to impose their will on others, and they are "morally right" to do so, regardless of who may get hurt or who may simply surrender their rights without a fight.




No, I disagree. Either abortion is morally wrong or it isn't. When is the taking of a human life (the ultimate in "hurt" imposed upon someone else) NOT wrong and immoral? You seek to find some "middle ground" in the "acceptable level of hurt" that is totally against the tenets of Secular Humanism. ANY abortion would violate those tenets, unless, of course, they truly ARE relative.

" The only example there that could possibly be
defined as selfish is abortion."

If this what you truly believe, then remorse over your adulteries cannot be real. SELFISHNESS is at the core of adultery. ( Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations) You fulfilled your "aspirations" and you DON'T define it as "selfish behavior?"

"to express their sexual preferences" OUTSIDE of the bonds of Marriage is NOT "selfish behavior?"

"to exercise reproductive freedom" OUTSIDE of Marriage is NOT "selfish behavior" even though someone else (the resultant baby) "pays the ultimate price" for someone else's selfish "exercise" of "reproductive freedom?"

"to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care" means what? That the individual gets to determine for themself what "access" means, what "who gets to pay for MY health care means," what "personal responsibility" and the consequences of my choices mean?" Just what the definition of these terms are is vital to understanding what you mean by the phrase and what circumstances you are attempting to apply it to.

"to die with dignity" Dr. Kevorkian maybe? There ARE living wills and advance directives already available to anyone who wants them so that they CAN "die with dignity." Hospice already exists for managing pain and discomfort. When does someone else get to decide when YOU need to die, and when does someone else decide that you continued existence is "undignified" simply because you don't fit their definition of a "dignified" life might be? This is an extremely slippery slope you are advocating and must be approached with the utmost care. I don't reject the "concept," but it does need to be carefully defined.




NAMBLA for instance?

"Gays being off by themselves don't hurt anybody."

Abstinence for anyone, homosexual or heterosexual, doesn't hurt anyone.

Ever heard of AIDS? I employed a homosexual male as the head of one of my departments. Aside from his attempting to accuse me being "hostile" to gays (discrimination in the workplace) after he chose to leave the company, a charge that was investigated by the State and dismissed as having no basis in fact, he has subsequently died from Aids, after passing on his "gift" to who knows how many others.




Ahhh yes, a Dr. Elizabeth Kubler Ross devote'.

I believe I addressed this previously.

A question for thought: If an individual has NO say in whether or not they allowed to live, grow old, and approach death (abortion), WHY should they have any right to choose to terminate their own life by suicide when someone else might want them to "stick around?" "Pain" is not the determinant factor, we already know that, though it may be "a" factor.




"Outside the realm of decisions concerning sexual behavior, I adhere to my moral principles very well."

Okay, so in "just this one little area" I was a bad girl. In everything else I'm a good girl. Perhaps you are in everything else, but you grossly underestimate the enormity of the betrayal that is adultery.

That you go further and state; " 99.9% of the time that decision has something to do with sex" indicates the overriding emphasis and concern that you place on YOUR "sexual fulfillment and appetites" that WILL end your marriage. If 99.9% of the time your husband KNOWS that you will "give in" to your decisions and seek gratification outside of your marriage, WHAT possible reason could he have to stay married to you?

" - my point is only that instead of having a moral problem generally the problem is confined to one area."

Okay, and it's this "one small area" that will be paramount in your husband's mind. FIDELITY means NOT giving into anything that takes you "outside" of the marriage. If it "hurts you" to say monogamous and confined to the marriage for your sexual needs, then your husband, by definitions of Secular Humanism, has not only the right but the obligation to let you seek gratification outside of the marriage and not be subject to his "shortcomings in the sexual department of marriage."

Aphaeresis, I really think you need to reexamine this whole philosophical base upon which you are building your life and your choices.



I disagree. Normative only describes what a group generally accepts. It does NOT "confer" rightness or wrongness. Furthermore, the "norm" can be changed by popular vote or choice, it is NOT absolute.

I also addressed your torture example above, so all I will add at this point is that your example does NOT prove that torture is not "relative." Would it be ethically and morally wrong to NOT obtain information from a "reluctant" individual if the lack of that information resulted in the harm or death of many innocents who were depending upon you to keep them safe from harm? Aphaeresis, Freedom is NOT "free." There ARE costs that MUST be paid….and that IS relative and IS also normative at the very same time.




Okay, then WHY were you cheating, not just once, but multiple times?

Why did it not make any difference (and it seems as though it still doesn't in your mind) whether the Other Men were married or single?

I know, you listed all the things that your husband does (many of which are not right, by the way) as the "justifications," if not the "why's," of why you chose to commit adultery.

So let's begin by examining your concept of Marriage and Marital Vows and whether or not they are binding or "relative."




With all due respect, we are NOT talking about "other people," we are talking about you and YOUR choices. What other people do should be of "no consequence" to you, don't you agree? This is a form of what is called "gaslighting."




Of course I get your point, but I am not sure YOU get your point. What you are describing are abuses of religion and the choices of individuals to justify doing whatever they want to do.

The fact that you "don't like" what a given "theology" might teach does not automatically make it "wrong." That you don't like the idea that heaven or he11 actually exist doesn't mean that they don't. That SIN exists because there is a Holy God who is the antithesis of sin is not a matter of "personal belief" or "like or dislike" either.

The "bottom line" is that when looking at a given "theology" it is the OBJECT of the faith that is what is important, whether we like it or not. We CAN choose to reject truth, that is done all the time and it's no different when it comes to the truth of God and Jesus Christ.




Glad you agree. Now, how about "ideologies" of Planned Parenthood that PUSH abortion and violence upon the unborn children?

"Open Marriages?"

"Sex with anyone just as long as I get what I want?"

How do we want to define "ideologies of violence?"




Compared to Muslim extremists, or even Islamic States, Humanists would have to be pro-democracy, because democracy "tolerates" and "allows for" differences in beliefs, so I understand what you are saying. Atheists would basically fit into that "preference" category also, until someone wants to practice their faith in public places.

Salman Rushdie is back in the news again with Pakistani's and Islamic members of British Parlament calling once again for his death because Britain wants to give him a knighthood for literature. So do we fight Islamic extremists and extremism with all we have at our disposal, or do we fight with one hand tied behind our back, or do we fight without bullets, or do we fight by ignoring the problem and hoping it never shows up on OUR doorstep? The Cause of Right necessitates there BEING an absolute Right that is universal despite any opposing opinions.

What "theology" actually HAS "absolutes" that are NOT open to opinion or change, and if there are more than one "theology" that thinks they have the "right absolutes," which theology is actually correct and right (since there cannot be more that ONE correct theology in fact)? On what basis WOULD one theology stand "head and shoulders" above all the rest and BE the only correct one despite the many "alternatives?"




Once again, we are not talking about OTHERS. We are talking about YOU. That others have weaknesses and have failed their own faiths is NOT an issue. This whole thread is specifically about "What does working on MYSELF mean?". "And other questions" does NOT mean why others chose to commit adultery other than how those reasons might be similar to your own thought processes and equally WRONG.




Thank you. But it IS opinions that we are talking about and whether or not those opinions are right or wrong.




Fair enough. "IF someone will feel bad, don't do it." "If NOBODY will feel bad, it's probably okay." Who determines what someone else feels? How do you know? If your opinion is that NOBODY will feel bad, why would it only be "probably okay" to do something? Why SHOULD or WOULD someone "feel bad" about anything?

Secular Humanism DOES say "if it feels good, do it," not "it's probably okay to do it."

Secular Humanists set the agenda of what is Normal and, therefore, not going to makes someone else feel bad, as a group. If anyone else disagrees with them, they have "no right" to feel bad about something that is done.

Secular Humanism suffers from the same problem that virtually all "religions" suffer from, there is no "higher authority" than Man. The difference between Christianity and other religions is that there is a "higher authority" who proved His "claim" to that position. Rejecting or accepting that "proven one" does not alter the truth, but it should cause one who sincerely wants to do right to carefully examine the evidence that might say "this one is the REAL truth."




Nonsense. And PLEASE don't put forth the UN as any sort of yardstick of "moral uprightness." Need I go further than Darfur? How about the "Oil for Food" program for Iraq?

It's ALL relative to the desires of the individuals in each group. That IS the point of Secular Humanism.




No, Christian marriages are not the only happy marriages. That's because Christianity is about a relationship with God, and many don't have much of a relationship with God, or simply call themselves Christians because they like the sound of it but reject the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.

But "happiness" in marriage isn't the "point" either. That is applying a subjective feeling to the commitment and covenant of marriage, of willing surrender and servanthood of each other ahead of self, rather than God's ordained roles for husband's and wives and His promise to believers that they WILL grow closer to each other as they both, individually, walk closer with Him.

"Two wrongs NEVER make a right." Adulteries by both husband and wife do NOT "level the field" and make the other's adultery, or the marriage for that matter, "right." That's not just the experience of some on MB, that is a universal truth. IF you cut off your arm and found out that it "wasn't a good idea" to do that, would you want your husband to cut off his arm to find out for himself that it was a "bad and hurtful idea?"

I don't see any remorse in your words. I see most of what you have written to be all about YOU [the TAKER]:

- You complain about your husband's perceived short comings
- You continue to justify and rationalize your affairs
- You talk about only YOUR needs
- You talk about your serial cheating in a manner that borders bragging

Where are your threads where you ask [the GIVER]:

- How do I make this up to my husband
- How can I make what I have done right
- How do I help HIM heal once I tell him
- How can I make this a marriage that will meet HIS needs
- How can he ever forgive me

Kiwi,

Oh no! Nothing like that. Just got whipped with a belt and once hit over the head with an empty plastic soda bottle. And the fact that punishments were more consistent with his moods than our (my siblings and me) actual behavior. And like I said, he got help and changed.

Resilient,

When I said my kids are doing great I meant they are able to behave without being spanked or having any physical punishment. They also do very well in school and are both in gifted programs. Obviously they miss their dad because he's been gone so long. And yeah, I'm sure they know there is some discord, although it would be there even if I never cheated. They have no reason to suspect infidelity, though, and if they did they'd say so..that's how my kids are. I'm not saying this to justify anything because I have already quit.

Hmmm, sounds close to me. I have read that Pep, just didn't connect the dots. What do you think APH?

Larry

Uh oh. I am going to go get a very, very large cupa and then sit down to see if I can digest one of FH's looooooong epistles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You started out real good FH, now I gotta read the rest of it. Sheesh, and people complain that ****I**** am loooooong winded. Sheesh, mutter under my breath, waphouka......

Larry

Aph (like the name, BTW),

I started reading over your thread, which somehow digressed, and decided to post based on your original question.

How does one work on oneself? I can't say what that means for you, but for me it was to solidify my values which had subtly changed from when I started clinging to them years ago. For me that was learning about boundaries and forgiveness. It meant finding HAPPINESS, which had eluded me for so long and I had been blaming everyone but me. Being at peace with my decisions to stay with my DH despite our past, and learning not to relive and requestion my decisions. Learning to communicate, instead of becoming defensive and fighting. All things I'm still working on, but I'm so much better than what I was. And the results of my hard work are in my M, and my kids. I'm lucky to be aware of my positives, instead of focusing on my negatives. That is what working on myself means to me.

Resilient,

I'm showing remorse by changing my habits, trying to learn and apply what I learn, and trying to prepare for the day I tell him and what happens after. It's the changes in my behavior that are important, not emotional displays. I've got two kids to take care of and I have to remain functional.


There isn't any way to make this up to him or make what I did right, so I feel it would be stupid to say I want to do that. I can only help him recover. And I do want to learn about that, so I'm buying more books people have recommended like After the Affair and Surviving the Affair. I do want to help him heal once I tell him.

I can't make this right. I can only make right what I'll do in the future. That's why I'm here to figure out how to fix myself.

I do try to throw in a compliment here and there when I talk to him on the phone or in email. He is so focused on jobhunting he doesn't want to do his EN survey right now and I don't blame him. Right now what he needs is for me to not bug him about relationship stuff so he can focus on his job search. When I started calling him every day to talk, he didn't like that. So I'm at a loss as to what else I can do on that front until we can be together.

As for making justifications, rationalizations - I need to figure out why so I don't keep doing this. In trying to find the right "why" I will inevitably come up with a few wrong whys.

And sometimes I will describe patterns of FORMER thinking that don't necessarily represent how I'm thinking these days, but I'll try to make the distinction more clear.

Pep and Larry,

At first I would have said no way I'm a freeloader because it's not my current mindset, but then I thought about it some more. I know there was a time when I was a buyer but I started freeloading when I felt helpless to change anything. And I know I want to do more than just freeload now.

Aph-

Do you FEEL any remorse/regret for what you've done? Does knowing that you've done this make you sad/upset with yourself/feel horrible for having done so? You say that you can't make what you did 'right...and I agree. But do you wish you could?

THAT is what appears to be lacking on the remorse side of things, IMHO.

I don't get the feeling that you would change things if you could. I don't get the impression in what I've read that you regret what you've done.

You continue to attempt to justify what you've done. And that's why you're still getting everyone questioning your motives and actions.

On the children front...don't bet that they've got no reason to suspect infidelity. You'll hear countless stories here of people who grew up with infidelity going on in their home, and KNEW it...although their parents never thought that they did.

Heck...MY kids knew my wife was wayward just as much as I did. It wasn't until we could PROVE it that anyone could do something about it.

Don't bet that they don't know. Don't bet that it ISN'T/HASN'T affected they way they think/feel/live. Its much, MUCH harder to hide than you likely realize.

They may never tell you what they know/suspect. Even if you ask. But it WILL affect their view of the world, their view of sex, their view of you, their view of their father, their view on marriage and marital vows...etc...

Aph...How long have you been a WW? In other words, when did the cheating begin?

Btw, I only asked about your relationship with your dad to find out where your skewed perception of men began...NOT at all for you to shift "blame" for your waywardness to your dad or your childhood...I just think it's good to understand the origin of your beliefs...To me, knowing where it began assists in CHANGING those beliefs today...

I also agree with the consensus here that you don't seem all that concerned about your husband and helping HIM...That is where your focus should be...But I think it's gonna be hard for you while you still seem okay with the idea of him being unfaithful to you...That's not uncommon btw, I did that too...I even tried to convince Mr. W to go and have an affair of his own...HOW SICK! IMO, you aren't out of the fog until the idea of that breaks your heart, terrifies and sickens you...I think this all seems less real to you because your husband doesn't yet KNOW...I pray for your change of heart and mind when that happens...

How long have you been involved with Secular Humanism? Did Christianity have any part in your past?

Mrs. W

FH,

Most of my totally off-topic responses about Secular Humanism I will include in another post with the title OFF TOPIC - Secular Humanism or something like that. In the meantime...


I don't mean to do that. I know from reading MB posts and watching the video (yes I watched) that this is something that will take years for him to
recover from. That's why I want to help him.


Well, first the 99.9% doesn't refer to how often I give in, just that whenever I give in, sex has something to do with it 99.9% of the time.

My intention is to figure out WHY I have weaknesses in this particular area that are not present in other areas of my life. Once I figure that out, I can find a way to behave differently in the future. The only thing that will convince my husband I'm serious is a change in my behavior. Crying and pretty speeches won't be enough, no matter how sincere. Like I mentioned, I have changed some habits and will change more once I figure out what to do.


Because they cheated in the past, therefore if it wasn't with me it would have been with someone else. I know that's no excuse. That was the rationalization I was using at the time NOT something I currently think.



The idea is for me to change the marriage (and me) in such a way that we don't have to hurt each other to achieve goals that make us happy.

Why should my husband forgive me? I have already changed my habits to protect my marriage in the future. Hopefully by the time I tell him I will have figured out the reasons why and how I can avoid bad choices in the future. And I'm willing to do anything he needs me to do to help him recover and ensure this won't happen again. I'd give him email passwords, a schedule of my day, a cell phone superglued to my hip, whatever he needs.


It is selfish if you or the other person is married. If you are single, then no, it isn't.

NAMBLA are pedophiles, not just gays. It should have been obvious I meant gay ADULTS.

As for AIDS, lesbians are less likely to spread AIDS than straight people so your logic doesn't follow. And avoiding hurt means taking precautions like using a condom. We don't say stop driving a car because you might kill someone. We say drive safely and wear a seat belt. Everything in life entails some risk.


That's true. It's just that when Secular Humanism comes up I feel like I have to be a representative of SecHum, and I know I haven't lived up to it. I don't want people using my bad behavior to attack SecHum, that's all.

Just one more point about the Constitution. Majority rule does not determine what it says because if it did, the Bill of Rights could be voted away state by state. The whole point is to have inalienable rights that can't be voted away. The text, supporting documents and precedent are what the Supreme Court uses to make their decisions and YES it is their job to interpret the Constitution. It's part of checks and balances. The judicial branch acts as a check against Congress to ensure that mob rule doesn't overrule individual liberty.

Thank you Larry and Ace. I have nothing to add but just wanted to let you know I'm still paying attention.

chobbs, yeah focusing on the positive is probably a good idea for me. Thanks.

Owl,

Yes I feel remorse and regret, and yes I wish I could do something to make it up to him. I sometimes cry about it but I can't do that all the time. I have two kids to take care of and all my relatives and close friends are out of state. I have to keep myself together.

Your point about the kids possibly knowing more than I think they do is well taken. I don't know what I can do about that now, though except not do it again. It's upsetting not being able to turn back the clock. And thank you.

MrsW,

It began maybe six years ago. It's been a long time.


Well, I know it would if it was something emotional and not purely physical. And a lot of things seem unreal. Starting my first affair was like stepping through a door to a completely different world and now I've stepped back into what should be familiar and feel like I'm in culture shock.

To answer your other questions, I found Secular Humanism 14 years ago, although it wasn't a conversion. It was something I already believed in years before I knew it had a name. I was a Christian as a child and took it very seriously until I started having doubts at age 10. For the next nine years I guess you could say I was on a quest to find the right religion for me...then decided I didn't like any of them.
And thank you.

Sometimes I hate this system. The form you submitted is no longer valid.

Back button usually takes you back to the previous screen and you can copy your post, back out, and resubmit.

But not this time.

Had a particularly good post for you, but I don't have the time to recreate it right now.

If I can find time, I will try again.

I should have learned to always compose in Word and paste into these infernal "timelimited" response boxes.

Later.

FH, Oh I know, I hate when that happens. I use notepad for long posts, usually.

Oh, hey, I thought of another reason my husband might want to forgive me. I'm my own initiator of my choice to quit. I did not have to get caught first. He didn't have to Plan A or Plan B me before I decided to quit. And when I tell him it will be because I want to tell him, not because he's dragging it out of me.

I just hope that doesn't hurt him more by making him think he was dumb for not catching me. But I had a lot of coaching from my first OM on how not to, so he really shouldn't.

Well, it depends on the male. Some males want to fight for their marriage. But after they succeed, they get a major let down.

Now I wonder who that happened to . . .

Larry

Hey guys I have a question...In trying to figure out the why in all this, would it do any good to think about how the first one started? I really don't think the others would have if not for the first, but if you think that'll just lead to me blaming the first OM instead of myself I won't waste time going down that road.

Aphaeresis - This concern about potentially blaming the OM is part of what my "lost" post was touching on. Perhaps I will try to recreate it in some abreviated fashion, but time to do so is a major constraint. In the meantime, here's something to ponder: The OM WAS responsible for his part in the adultery, but you always had the "option" to just say "no."

Why did you think you had the "option" to say "yes?"

Consider the following quotation in trying to answer that question as it is a part of the answer, but not the full answer.



I'm going to suggest something for you to think about that you won't want to think about, but you really should if you want to get to the bottom of the "why" question.


" decided I didn't like any of them

Having doubts, especially at age 10, about Christianity, is NORMAL. There is nothing wrong about having doubts IF they result in your sincerely seeking answers to them. Unfortunately, most of us are very susceptible to the prevailing philosophy in schools that Evolution, not God, is "the" answer to how we got here, and therefore, that belief in God and Christ is wrong. In my case, I was about age 16 when I rejected Christianity in favor of "Science," majored in College in Biology, and was a "confirmed" Agnostic (hedging my bets, or so I thought at the time) from 16 to 24.

It wasn't until I was planning to marry a Christian girl that I had to sit down and really examine the evidence FOR God and Christ and the evidence FOR random chance and "natural processes" as to which "held more water."

Let's be "honest" here for a minute, okay? What you "don't like" is irrelevant IF the thing you "don't like" is true regardless of your "likes or dislikes," don't you think?

You, like me, and everyone else, have Free Will to make choices. We can choose to say that the world is flat, even though the truth is that it is round. We can choose to say that gravity doesn't apply to us because we don't like it's "demands" on us and the "consequences" it imposes if we "do whatever we want to do," like step off the roof of a tall building "because I refuse to accept that gravity applies to me, or at least it doesn't apply THIS TIME."

You have been allowed to "do it your way" because God does NOT impose His will on you. He will change the hearts of all who will accept Christ so that they CAN choose to accept Christ and to seek after God, but He will NOT "force" anyone to do so. He gives everyone up until the time they die to make the choice. Some DO make it as a child and some, like the thief on the cross next to Christ, make it on their deathbed.

So, when you say you "decided I didn't like any of them," you are saying nothing different than many people say. THIS may be the "right time" for you to revisit that decision, as you need to revisit many of your decisions as you seek answers to the "why" question.

If you are at all interested in examining your areas of doubt about God and Christ, I will make myself available to you to try to talk about those doubts. It is obvious, don't you think, that Secular Humanism, by itself, is NOT the answer to your doubts either, because you did "trash" the tenets of that belief system too. So here you are, adrift once again. But consider this, Secular Humanism does not believe in "sin" because it does not believe in God. Sin is the opposite of holiness, and if there is no "holiness" there cannot be sin. What IS "sin?" Sin is disobedience to God. Without God, there can be no sin.

Why? Because God is Sovereign and as sovereign Lord, HE determines what is and what is not "sin." When we reject God as our Lord, there is a "vacancy" created for that position in our lives. WHO sits on the "sovereign throne" of our lives? WHO determines what is "right and wrong?" Ultimately this is an issue of "control." Who is actually "in control" of not only our lives, but in control of everything? WE do NOT control gravity, it exists independently of us and it WILL affect us even if we deny it. We WILL eventually die, and the reality of "what comes after death" WILL affect us, no matter how much we might want to deny it because it, like gravity, is true and operates independently of our "likes."

Aphaeresis, we can choose to apply some set of "moral standards" to our lives and try to live our lives according to them. We can try to be "good," but it eventually comes down to "most of the time." Not one of us "perfect." In your case, you argue that in all areas EXCEPT for fidelity in marriage, you have been "good." That argues for "grading on the curve" when it comes to sin, something that is "attractive" to humans since we ALL sin in one way or another from time to time. What we don't like, though, is that God does NOT "grade on the curve." God grades on a "pass/fail" system that "levels the playing field" for all humans and we DO NOT "make the grade" by our own efforts to "be good" or to "earn" His forgiveness of sin.

As much as you seem to hope that your husband will decide to forgive you and to remain married to you, that decision is NOT in your control. That's "scary," isn't it? You seem to be a woman who has prided herself in being in control, of deciding things for yourself, of vigorously defending your right to be "sovereign" in your life and in your choices. "Giving up control" probably scares you, if you think about it. But scared or not, you WILL be giving up control of your marriage. The "big question" with respect to that will be WHO will you be giving up that control to? The answer, from where I sit, is you will be giving it up to both God and to your husband. But the "bottom line" is that YOU will not be the one who is in control, you will be the one "along for the ride" and your "need" to be in control of things will chafe mightily against the "surrender" that will be needed.

So let's get back to the "why's" of your choices then, and your choices now.

Why do you exist? What is your purpose for existing? Why are you married, especially to THIS man who is your husband? Why does marriage even exist? What does "servanthood" mean to you as a "why" you do the things you do? Why was your choice of adultery "wrong?" Why should your husband forgive you rather than "give up" as he did with his first wife?

Now is NOT the time to attempt to address all of "his problems," no matter how real they may be. IF he agrees to attempt to recover your marriage, that will be the time to begin addressing HIS issues, because you will both need to make some fundamental changes.

What do you think? This IS a "crisis time." Isn't NOW the time to really answer the question "is this all there is?"

Thanks for recreating, FH. I'm praying for you, Aph.

Ace

P.S. How was your 'Holy Smokies' Anniversary trip, FH? Maybe you could update on the Married 30+ years magic? thread on the recovery forum.....thanks for the list, too.

P.P.S. Sorry for the mini-TJ, Aph

Larry - how's that large "cupa" holding out?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It was VERY nice, thank you Ace. Terrific cabin, wonderful mountain views, great time alone together (mall shopping, visiting the muscle car museum, hot tub, jacuzzi, no job interruptions, no kids visiting....just us). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

FH,


I was sincere and I have found my answers. Just because they are not the answers you found does not mean I was not a sincere seeker. Most people in the world follow the religion they were born into and don't even bother to examine other religions. That is not seeking anything. You, for instance, still are not seeing Secular Humanism as a Secular Humanist would see it. You still fail to understand why it makes so much more sense than religion. You are probably afraid to because you are afraid of losing your faith. But a shift in perspective really can help you cope with the reality of death, and the reality that people must take care of each other because there is no one else.



Exactly! That's why I don't like Christianity or any other religion. I do not believe any of them are true. People WANT to believe they are true because people don't like the fact that when we die, we cease to exist. Nobody wants to face the truth. But I can deal with the truth. I have learned to cope with the reality that when I die, I will no longer exist. I'm not happy about it, but what makes me happy is not necessarily what's true.


Sounds to me like you are exploiting my personal crisis in order to gain a convert and win brownie points with God. I do not appreciate that at all. I have absolutely no interest in Christianity. None. In fact, I think there are a lot of things in Christianity that are absolutely horrible and make me sick to my stomach. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but that's the way I feel. I hate religion, and I think most of the violence in the world would not be going on if not for beliefs in supernatural, transcendent beings. But don't get me wrong...I don't hate Christians or religious people in general as long as they don't think I'm a bad person for not believing as they do. I know religion is a comfort to a lot of people, it's just that I can't be comforted by something I believe to be false.

I will say this, though. Paul Kurtz, the head of the Council for Secular Humanism has written a great deal about the benefits and (positive) morality of monogamy and marriage. I think it would be very good for me to read about those things from a Secular Humanist point of view, so that's what I will do. I said before that I was a bit defensive about talking about Secular Humanism because I felt like I had to be responsible for being a representative of Humanism, and I know I haven't lived up to it. Well, the solution to that is to live up to it. I can't change the past but I can control how I behave in the future. Not many people get to meet an actual Secular Humanist and get most of their information about it from the wrong sources. So, like it or not, I have to set an example. So that's what I'll do.

To Ace, I know that you are being sincere when you say you will pray for me. I appreciate the thought behind it.

Sorry to be behind,
but this is my first look at this thread.


This comment seemed to have really struck a nerve with some here.
Fair Enough.

However,
I don't think Aphaeresis's experience is all that uncommon.

My W did very similar things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
She was doing ALL Kinds of stuff for her CLB (OM) .....that I Never Got.
At All.
In fact,
after they got into their routine .....he got it EVERY time.
{yea, it took her 4-6 months to get trained in all that stuff}
*sigh*

She traded the thrill of HER sexual favors ......for His Attention and Blowing smoke up her @zz.
Sad but true.

In addition,
my W never had any plans to ever Leave .......and also thought it was OK, as long as it was their "little secret". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Aphaeresis - you are continuing with your Disrespectful Judgments. That may be something you might want to begin working on if you are truly thinking about changing the "way you are" to the "way you want to be."




Of course not, because I don't need to "deny God" in order to understand it's basis or it's beliefs anymore than I need to be a Hindu or an Atheist (which, by the way IS what Secular Humanists are) in order to understand their beliefs. I don't have to BECOME something to understand it.




Not at all. IF there was a time when that sort of potential was possible, it would have been when I became aware of my wife's adultery.




And this philosophy, I suppose, is born out by "reproductive rights" wherein a human being is killed and the "reality of death" is that there is NOTHING after death? That is some "taking care of each other."




Okay, if you can deal with the truth, what constitutes "truth" for you? Obviously you do NOT believe that Jesus Christ lived, much less that he died and rose physically from the dead. Despite all the eyewitness testimony you choose to deny his very existence. On what basis do you make that determination? You were not there. The eyewitnesses were. By the same token you must obviously reject the possibility, never mind the fact, of miracles, because miracles would require a circumventing of "natural processes."




That is a more profound statement than you realize.




Then you have no real understanding of what being a Christian is.

However, far be it from me to "exploit" anything. I shall wish you well in your attempts to hold your marriage together. I have no need of any "brownie points" with God. Jesus Christ secured all of them for me that I will ever need.




You are not a "bad person" for not believing in Christianity. You, me, and everyone else is a "bad person" simply because there is only one who IS good, and it's not any human being. What you argue for, and it is your right to do so, is that the "best of the worst is good enough." RELATIVE to one another, graded on "the curve," however you want to look at it. The truth is that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Whether or not anyone chooses to believe that for themselves does not alter the truth. That the soul is eternal is the truth, and the grave is NOT the "end of the story." And that belief, by the way, that the grave is "the end" predates Secular Humanism by a long time, in fact it was a prevalent philosophy of many Jews during Jesus' time here on Earth. Going back even further, it was even denied by Satan when he spoke to Eve, only he twisted it to be "you will NOT die." Truth exists, and truth IS established by God, not by the mind of man, Aphaeresis.

Something you might want to think about. NO Christian converts anyone. Conversion is an act of God in His grace and mercy. All that Christians are required to do is to proclaim the Gospel message and stand ready to give an answer as to WHY they believe to anyone who might sincerely inquire. You don't want to know, and I respect your choice.




By all means, DO that.

And while you are "revisiting" Secular Humanism as a faith (a religion) to believe in, consider what you wrote:

"Exactly! That's why I don't like Christianity or any other religion. I do not believe any of them are true. People WANT to believe they are true because people don't like the fact that when we die, we cease to exist. Nobody wants to face the truth. But I can deal with the truth. I have learned to cope with the reality that when I die, I will no longer exist. I'm not happy about it, but what makes me happy is not necessarily what's true."

Just as Secular Humanists WANT to believe that there is no God and that there is no life after death. It is based in the very faith you demonize. Aphaeresis, ALL belief systems are based in FAITH, not in the "scientific method" or "what's only available to my five senses."

There IS one major difference between ALL religions, yours included, and that is the PERSON of Jesus Christ, an historical figure who actually existed and who made certain claims about Himself that were "substantiated." He may not "fit" with your desire for control, but that issue of control, sadly, was what my "lost post" was all about. I shall not be recreating it, not for "brownie points" or for anything else.

I shall end with wishing you well. May you live long and prosper as a fictitious friend of mine once said.

Aph... there is no doubt that you can believe as you wish... and I have no problem with that. I think you are wrong, but while I have my faith, there is no "proof" that Jesus was in fact God and that he died for our sins. There is no proof, nothing that would hold up in a court room that he rose from the dead...it is from faith that I believe these things... not proof that can be argued away with the passage of time and a failure to document things in real time.
But isn't the real issue here, not one of your disdain for religion or your belief in sec hum? Isn't the issue here that you have infected others lives with your brand of selfishness? You have harmed countless numbers of people and even the one you vowed to take care of forever. The reason you have gotten ripped here and will continue to get ripped is that you project an attitude that comes across as less than remorseful about what you have done.
You may not like the terminology... but by definition, you have acted like a **EDIT**. You make matters worse by bragging about your sexual prowess when in reality because of the way you were acting out, it is something to be ashamed of. If you were with your H I wouldn't care if you did every act imaginable...that's cool. Even if you were single and you made a choice to be that way with another like minded single person... no problem if it works for you. But when you hurt another and act less than remorseful about what you have done, that makes you a bad person in my eyes.
Your H deserves the truth today. If Larry truly wants to help out a BS here, he can email your info to me and I will notify your H myself...not because I hate you... but because every single day that passes with him still being lied to is another day that you have betrayed him.
So skipping all this religious nonsense for a while... this is a simple case of right and wrong.

four gifts to the marriage:
care
protection
honesty
time

You ask

"What does working on myself mean?"

it means getting yourself to where you are willing to commit giving the four gifts to your marriage ... and to yourself ... for the remainder of your life .... because that is what you vowed when you said "I do"

Good God. Leave it to MEDC to come by and proclaim his love for JC and then call you a wh0re again. Tell me MEDC, WWJD? Would he call Aph a wh0re?

fcf... I said by definition she was acting like one... if that offends you or you feel it is wrong little boy, open a dictionary.

fcf... to save you a little trouble in case you can't reach the book on the shelf...

Main Entry: 1whore
Pronunciation: 'hor, 'hur
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English hore, from Old English hOre; akin to Old Norse hOra ******, hOrr adulterer, Latin carus dear -- more at CHARITY
1 : a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : PROSTITUTE; also : a promiscuous or immoral woman
2 : a male who engages in sexual acts for money
3 : a venal or unscrupulous person

And? I can think of a few not so nice names for you, but I hold my tongue out of respect for the other members of this board.

Isn't judgement of this sort reserved for God, not those who seem to think they are God?

Did this little rule apply to you when you judged others on this board, namely Pepperband? Were you playing "God" when you did that?

It means becoming a Buyer instead of a Renter...

Mark

fcf... I said she was acting that way.
If we call a robber by that name after he holds up a bank are we in fact judging him incorrectly?
You are such a child.

and here's a little tidbit regarding what you call judgement...

http://www.capalert.com/judgenot.htm

fcf...

Can you actually say that you weren't acting like a who[/i]re when you were having an affair? I certainly can't, my ACTIONS back then defined me as such...My BEHAVIOR (and yours too) was FAR more offensive than the WORD wh[i]ore anyway...Don't you agree?

It's my personal opinion that you would have FAR more success in helping others if you just posted sound advice rather than acting like the masked avenger for waywards...Your choice, of course...

Mrs. W

FH,

I will go over to my separate thread on Secular Humanism to answer your religion-specific questions. Meanwhile...


Please keep in mind, the description below represents how I was thinking BACK THEN, not now.

Okay, I've been thinking about this. We were already online friends (maybe already in an EA?) when he casually mentioned that he cheats on his wife. I was shocked because I admired and respected him so much. I got angry and asked him why he didn't just divorce his wife if he wasn't going to stay faithful.

He was very intelligent and educated. You'd think smart people would avoid doing stupid things, but the truth is the smarter you are the better your rationalizations are. Everything he said seemed logical, and he had an answer for every objection I had. On the other hand, because I admired and respected him so much, I wanted to believe him. Not all of my crushes are the same. With some men I have a tendency to feel something that borders on hero worship. There was a bit of that when I was first getting to know my husband as well.

Anyway, we had many long conversations about this, including his dissatisfaction with his marital sex life. This was something I could relate to because I was also unhappy with my marital sex life. We commiserated, which led to those sort of I'm-into-this-what-are-you-into? sorts of conversations. Bad idea. Very, very bad idea. Although he hadn't tried everything I was interested in, he was very open to the possibility of trying it if he found someone interested.

My husband had already given me permission to cyber as a way of dealing with our sexual incompatibility. So it quickly led to that and several months later my friend got laid off and had to look for a new job. Sometime after that, he got one in my city. I was very relunctant to turn my virtual affair into a PA, but he was in pursuit mode and I was tempted. He talked me into at least meeting him in person, which I did. Nothing happened then, but sometime after that I found out my husband was going away for the weekend. At the time it seemed like too good an opportunity to pass up. Basically I let my emotions overrule my brain. So that's how the PA started. At times I wished I could voluntarily switch my emotions on and off like a lightswitch. Then it would be easy to do the right thing.

After the first time, I was already a cheater so I felt like I couldn't go back. I had this - in for a penny, in for a pound - way of thinking. I also felt like I had some sort of natural tendency toward cheating, more so than other people, that precluded the possibility of change. Obviously I no longer feel that way.

Aph,

I won't be calling you any names. Not worth it in the end.

When you tell your husband that you had sex for the sake of sex, that it happened because you were seeking a "friend with benefits", and that you didn't believe anyone would get hurt, it didn't really count because you had no feelings for the OM, and because you couldn't seem to work out the sexual problems with him, here's what you can expect him to think:

Sex for the sake of sex: So, sex with me has no meaning. Sex doesn't really mean anything to Aph. I don't please her, never have, never will. I am nothing to Aph.

Friend with benefits: We used to be friends. I trusted you as my best friend. Now, you have replaced me many times over. You have changed the meaning of the word "friends".

Nobody will get hurt: So, I am nobody. Just....nobody. Absolutely no consideration was given to me as a person. I am basically a non-person to Aph.

Sex without feelings doesn't really count: It counts to ME. And I am very sure that it will count to the OMW when I call her and let her know that OM and Aph still contact each other.

Aph and I couldn't work out our sexual problems within the marriage: Probably because Aph has been having OM on her mind for over six years, and she has the idea that I am a nobody, who is unable to come close to meeting her needs anyway. She spends most of her time trying to find OM, and not nearly enough time figuring out how to work out the problems - the OBVIOUS problems - we have communicating in our marriage, meeting MY emotional needs, which she has devastated at this point. She hasn't met my sexual needs, talking only of her OWN, and complaining that I am not meeting her needs, asking for things in vague and unclear ways and then complaining that I am not good enough. The interactions regarding sex have reached the point where I am avoiding going to a doctor, avoiding talking to her about it any further, and probably have contributed greatly to the performance issues. Now, she tells me about the affairs......multiple affairs.

And, she is blaming......ME......because I am not meeting HER NEEDS.

Aph,
That's what I see his mind doing. Because it is basically what mine did.

You are the living, breathing, clone of my husband's OW.

I feel greatly disappointed in you, and feel sorry for you. Your life will not be happy from this point forward, because you do not see what you are doing wrong.

And you do not listen.

Without this change, without LISTENING, you will not make the changes needed in your heart.

And you will lose your marriage.

Plain and simple.

IF you are willing to listen, here's the rest of the advice:

YOU must understand that you had these affairs because YOU made this choice -

NOT because of your husband's lack of sexual performance
NOT because of your husband's lack of sexual positions
NOT because of your husband's lack of sexual desire for you
NOT because of your husband's lack of painting himself purple, or putting on costumes, or doing something you wanted him to do in bed, or ejaculating to the 1812 Overture in time with the firing of the cannons, or ANYTHING ELSE regarding YOUR HUSBAND's sexual performance.

You had these affairs because of YOU.

YOUR bad choices.
YOUR selfishness.
YOUR weaknesses.
YOUR ego.
YOUR .......fill in the blank.

YOU were in charge of this crappaganza, nobody else.

And if you go into this confession with anything else dripping from your lips, the outcome will be only be a continuation of that same party.

You know where that will lead.


My husband got caught. It would NOT have made one iota of difference to me if he would have confessed. Do not kid yourself with that.

This is going to devastate your husband. Nothing you do or say will cushion the blow, but there are things you can do and say that will make a difference in your chances for a future with him.

The very first thing you have to come up with, however, is

LEGITIMATE, HONEST, REMORSE.

The problem here is,

YOU DON'T HAVE ANY TO SHOW HIM.

So, how do you propose to solve that? Because to tell you the truth, THAT will be your biggest hurdle.

All the philosophizing, SecHum morality, justifications, explanations, apologies, "I've changed" pleas, and the rest, will not get him beyond calling bullsh*t on all of it - due to your obvious lack of remorse.

I'm telling you this straight up, because you are running out of time, and you have a wonderful tendency to avoid the confrontation at hand. You won't solve this one, EVER, if you don't face it head-on.

I see you as needing to work fast, really fast, to fix:

1. LISTENING
2. Understanding that these affairs are due to a fault in YOU, not your husband
3. You should feel remorse, and you do not convey that in the least.
4. Your tendency to make disrespectful judgements of your husband is obvious to us on the board, and you need to read up on this.
5. You are focused only on your needs in terms of sex, not on your husband's.
6. You are focused only on your needs in terms of your marriage, not your husband's.


Look at the last two and ask yourself, honestly, how much that has contributed to the downfall of your husband's ego, your sexual interactions with him, and your marriage in total.

Now, reassess your approach to this entire process. This marriage is in trouble because of YOU and your actions - start there, and worry about what your husband can do to fix his problems later. I do agree that he likely has some contributions to make and things to fix, but at this point, YOU have the heavy load. You control you, and only you.

mk,


Yes, that's the real issue. I'm not sure how to show remorse online without calling myself a bunch of names, which I'm not going to do. It puts the focus on me instead of on what I need to do to help him.


He has already indicated he can't handle anything right now except his job search. Plus, if I told him now he'd be worried sick about what I'm doing while he's in a completely different state. Plus, he's so depressed over the job situation that I fear telling him RIGHT NOW will make suicide a possibility. He does not deserve to die because I couldn't wait a few more weeks to tell him.

On the word "******." Words have connotations as well as denotation. When you call someone "******" what they hear is, "you think I'm a bad person not capable of change. I know I'm not that, so I'm not going to take what you say seriously." Regardless of whether the denotation fits, it simply will not help get through to people because of the connotation.

mkeverydaycnt did something a little different in that he said I was acting like one, not that I was one. The distinction is often lost on most people, but I get it. I still think it's more productive to focus on what I need to do now and in the future, though.

And good answer to what working on myself means, Pepperband and others in case I missed anyone.

You know, I just noticed that the word when spelled correctly is being filtered out from the bad speech filter. I suspect that means Dr. Harley would not approve of such language, and it is his site. Food for thought.

As to your analysis of denotation on being called a name. Among the other possibilities exists that in which the recipient of the name-calling takes into account the possibility that "the shoe fits".

Based on this, the person being called the name then ponders why it might be possible that the "shoe might fit", and makes careful analysis of one's own life.

Based on the analysis, the person then decides that either a) the shoe did not fit and drops it, or b) the shoe did indeed fit.

In your case, my advice was to LISTEN.

Choose option "b". The shoe fit. You did indeed act as named.

The label in this case fit (in terms of the current societal trend and accepted use of this particular term), and you need careful analysis of the behavior and careful analysis of the motivations behind this behavior. Certainly the short-term lift to the ego was gained, and self-serving pleasurable physical gains were received. However, the long-term outcomes of the behavior is now being seen. I certainly hope that you see some remorse, as I would personally see this as a gain in morality.

I see this as a gain in morality, because, aside from ANY religious argument against infidelity, there IS a human argument.

You have depersonalized your husband, and the OMWs in this situation. Despite your own personal belief system prior to and at the time of the affairs, the people who were married to you, and the those married to the OM did not share the same belief system. You ignored those beliefs, and instead made decisions without regard to their needs, feelings, and wants. Your needs and wants were held above those of others in the world, and overrode any and all other human beings' rights. This, in itself, dehumanized everyone in your wake. It is in this, at the very least, you should feel some sense of remorse, and indeed, shame. You are not better than, or above, others. Your own desires do not rise above those of others', your physical sensations and sexual needs and desires do not outweigh those of others. Because you do not believe in the religious vows of the marriage of others does not place you in the position to violate those of other marriages, despite the willingness of one of the partners in that marriage to do so - there remains another partner who was not present and voting.

The OW in my case told me that she had the very same ideas of marriage that you have, the very same ideas of sex that you have. Similar issues of sexual "needs" within her marriage that you have.

She stated she does not believe she can ever really love anyone. I believe you are probably doomed to that as well, because those who are so self-centered cannot give enough of themselves away to love deeply. It isn't in the getting that love is experienced.......it is in the giving......the sharing......yet, there is so much impersonal and I worry, weak, shallow, fearful, about your writing. You haven't let us "in".....you are not yet genuine.

Too many lies, still, Aph.

And the lies? Your "husband".....he will not be yours long.

schoolbus,

I don't want to do that to him. I know I made bad choices. I'm just trying to figure out why I made them. I know it's all my fault. Maybe I need to give him one reason for the purpose of answering what he needs to know and another reason for my purpose of keeping myself out of trouble in the future? I could tell him I was being selfish and stupid, and that would be true. For the purpose of keeping myself out of trouble I will need something more detailed.

I do feel remorse. I think about the pain he's about to go through and also the pain he may have already gone through suspecting something was wrong and not knowing what it was. I cry over it once or twice a day, then force myself to think about something else so I don't render myself dysfunctional. I know I report feelings of remorse in a very matter-of-fact unemotional way, but if I didn't I'd be too busy crying to finish my post.


Ok, I will. I know I've been too hard on him.


My husband's list of sexual needs is very short, and I do everything he likes. His problem with orgasm is medical, and I've tried to encourage him to see a doctor without nagging.


I will try to be more focused on my husband's marital needs, not my own, but it would help if I had a better idea of what they were, and he won't tell me.


I think we both contributed. I didn't realize how much *I* contributed until recently and it makes me very sad.


I agree with all of that. I'm attempting not to cry so I can finish this. Oops. Didn't quite make it.


No, that's not me. I love my husband very much. The first time he threatened to divorce me I cried so much that I had to buy artificial tears. I had run out of my own and my eyes were hurting from the dryness.


Well, sometimes I feel so much guilt I imagine myself as a jumper. Makes no sense, though, because I hate the feeling of falling, and poison would be quicker. Not that I would do that. It would hurt my kids too much.

Umm...last paragraph of last post - just a momentary fleeting thought. Pops up occasionally, but I'll be fine. I just want to focus on what to do next. I can't change what's already done.

Aphaeresis - as I indicated in my last post, I am done here.

One last parting "shot," or attempt to help you, but I have no confidence that it will hit the mark, or even nick the defensive wall you have erected. Regardless, here is the part you really need some "quiet time" to reflect upon.




You don't really want to do this. You only want to do what you can control. That's a major problem that is going to be a major "stumbling block," and it's not likely to change.

I tried to address this a little in asking you questions about Secular Humanism and what came out was all your "fangs" and "hatred" for Christianity and all "religions" as being for the "weak minded." Secular Humanism puts YOU "in control." That is the problem in a nutshell. It's a false sense of security because there are only some things that an individual can control, and they are ALL limited to just themselves. Your "lack of control" in that area has been well demonstrated, regardless of your "wish," even your "sincere desire," to NOW be something other than an adulteress. Yet you have NO resources outside of yourself to draw upon and you still don't "see" yourself as a "worthless sinner." Just the thought of such a descriptive term is repugnant to you because you don't want to see yourself in those terms.

You still don't understand that your marriage is already over. It ended with your first "foray" into adultery and all you've been doing since then is driving more nails in the coffin.

You think "logic" and "how I can help my husband cope and deal with my adulteries" is the answer. It isn't. It won't "work," nor will it give your husband any reason to continue your marriage. They are parts, and only parts, of the recovery process when both husband and wife WANT to try to rebuild from the complete nuclear devastation that has cratered and fried their entire marriage, and everything that the Betrayed Spouse ever thought they knew or believed.

But what is your response? It's in the next quotation.



A "broken and contrite" heart is something that comes from recognition of Sin and that I am a sinner. But without God, there IS no sin, only "bad choices." The IMPACT of the offense is deflected and the responsibility is "shifted."

You cry now because you are beginning to realize that adultery IS wrong, on every level. But you cry more because you likely to lose your marriage and the husband that you claim to love.

"This is love, that a man lays down his life for his friend."

"This is love, that while we were hopeless sinners, Christ died in our place."

Think about those acts of love, even if you don't believe in God. Think about undeserved grace and mercy. Think about "excuses" when none are "good enough" or "reason enough." Think about the FACT that you were in complete and total control of your adulterous affairs and that your husband will be in complete and total control of whether or not HE wants to remain married and face the agonies that Recovery will require him to face. You CANNOT control anything.

All you can do is make the NEEDED changes in yourself, your own Standards (not Boundaries at this time), your own self-centered focus that will be needed regardless of whether or not you remain married. All of your "words" will be meaningless to your husband. Yes, he needs to hear them, but your ACTIONS are what he will really be "listening" to.

But since you have such a hard time "listening" yourself, since you have such an "automatic" defense mechanism that "snaps to your defense" anytime you hear something that you think "attacks" you personally, I think your husband will "hear" the same no matter what you think you can to "help him." Truth be told, you CAN'T "help him." You can "go along for the ride," but he has to control the driving and the fuel and you can't help him with any of that. ALL that you can do, IF he gives you the opportunity to attempt recovery, is be a partner in the journey and occasionally offer suggestions for him to consider that may change the route he is on (i.e., joint marital counseling) while the destination remains unchanged. But HE will be the one "in control" and he will be the one "doing the driving." It won't be until MUCH later in the recovery journey that he might feel secure enough to let you do "some of the driving," but that's a long way down the road and won't occur until SOME trust begins to be restored.

The "who is in control" issue is key in all areas.

I sincerely wish you well as the tsumami approaches and you have very little time in which to prepare to save what can be saved. The tsumami will be in control and the after effects will take a long time to recover from. Sometimes the devastastion of the tsunami is so complete that nothing is salvageable. I hope that isn't the case for you, but I don't see you doing much to secure things other than "feeling sorry for yourself" right now. Tears will come, they are normal. But I suspect they are more founded in what you think you may lose, without realizing that it has already been lost. That's just the "flip side" of the "what you may gain" coin of adultery. The issues are "control" and "me."

Think long and hard about those things Aphaeresis, and IF you truly love your husband and truly want to save your marriage, surrender.

Good luck.

Hi there,

There is a simple explanation for why SF with "no ties" can seem exciting. The answer is projection, or in other words, fantasy. It works like this: normal life, with its everyday problems and pain, is suspended. Both people show their "best" sides, they don't really know much about each other... so they imagine. The OP can be anyone you want them to be. its a figment of your imagination, and vice versa.

Naturally, if the R goes on long enough, reality will creep in. Sooner or later you cannot ignore that OP farts, has bad breath, grumbles, gets depressed, has a gambling problem and neglects his family. By their nature, Rs like this cannot last.

In M, fantasising happens as well, but this time, in the other direction. After a while, you stop listening. You stop trying to really understand who your S is. You imagine you know everything about them. In your imagination, they become the boring, depressed, unreliable, uncaring, old, unfashionable, ugly, irritating...etc... person that you have invented.

The answer to both of these problems: reality. Give up fantasies. Open up your eyes and ears, and try to learn who your S really is. Listen to him. Respect that he is a different person to you with his own unique strengths and unique attractiveness. Be honest yourself. Be brave. Show him who you really are, including the parts of you that you may find shameful, embarrassing, or ugly. This is the only way to true lasting intimacy.

exactly. To give you perspective, there have been fuzzy thinking WS here in the past that have thought that I was being very hard on them. But I was attacking their behaviors...and guess what, I was right.
There is a distinction that gets lost on those that are not seeking to help but to enable (yes, FCF, this means you).
BTW, my last quote is from one of those people that thought I was somewhat ruthless at first... but then realized that in fact, it is their behaviors that define them, not the words typed at the fancy of an internet stranger.
I don't think you need to believe in God or to be saved to have a great marriage Aph. Many good people that have different beliefs than I are living a family life that is wonderful.
See, I have a belief that when we harm someone we should do all we can do to make it right. I don't take kindly to people having their rights or their bodies abused. I think that each day that passes you are in fact abusing your H's rights. It isn't him that you are protecting right now, it is you. He has been wounded already by your actions. Telling him now will allow him to see the wound and begin to figure out how to triage this assault on his soul. Later on he will begin to figure out how to heal... with or without your help...his choice. But keeping him blind, wounded and alone (and when he is living in allusion, he is alone) is only serving to harm him more.
So, to repeat... my issues are not really with what you have done... it is more of a matter of how you are responding to those things right now.
You can't begin being the person you should have been all along while holding on to the past with your lies. In fact you are keeping the WS part of you alive by choice here... deal it a death blow by bringing the shining armour or truth to bear against this beast.
MEDC

smu, yes I know you're right. Thanks.

mk, did you ever read the thread in which I said I told him I didn't want to stay at my parents house for extended periods without him being nearby because my ex-bf lives near there, etc.? He reacted by refusing to talk about it. When I asked him about it, he said yes he's upset but he doesn't need this kind of upset right now. Just because YOU would want to know everything right away doesn't mean HE does. He clearly does not want any bad news until he finds a job. He's told me quite clearly that he can't handle it. He won't even fill out the EN survey because he just doesn't want to think about anything else right now. If I say anything right now, he will not only blame me for what I did, but blame me for the timing and blame me if he gets too depressed to find a job. This is not a disrespectful judgement. This is me KNOWING my husband in this regard.

But maybe I could test that. Maybe I could say, hey honey I've been keeping secrets about something horrible I've done that you are really going to hate. Do you want to know about it now or later?

This is yet another example of why I am withdrawing from this thread. You just don't get it. You resort to Disrespectful Judgments instead of hearing. With the exception of your soul and where you will spend eternity, I don't care if you think "Barney" is what you want to believe in.

If you want to have a discussion about religion and which religion, if any, is the "right" one, that can be done, but on another thread.




Wonderful. Common interests and beliefs are helpful. I have yet to read, though, how Secular Humanism has helped either of you to have a good, loving, marriage. So if you consider it to be the "end all," the "definitive religion" for you, isn't about time you both lived up to the tenets of your chosen faith and submitted your will to it's teachings?

Personally, to answer your question, I DON'T care if you or your husband ever were to accept Christ. You don't answer to me, you will ultimately answer to God. But you have no concept of what being a Christian is or you would not be making such ludicrious statements.

Regardless, I am removing myself from your thread so you will have one less thing to try to gaslight your problems about. For someone who thought there was "much in common" between Christianity and Secular Humanism, your true colors are showing.

One last time, sincere best wishes for your recovery attempts.

(Previous post deleted via edit.)

FH, I take it back. Sorry.

Aph,

FH does believe in Christianity as the one and only true religion. That is the belief system of FH. It will be the way that FH tries to reach you. It does not water down the what FH has to say, nor make the statements less, or more true. FH's heart is true, because he tries his very best to get you to see the facts that adultery, infidelity, and that what you have done is wrong and that you do have a long and difficult road to travel ahead if you expect to recover your marriage.

I cannot, and will not, argue religion with FH or anybody else, because my belief system does not match up with that of many people. It is far too difficult to describe. I have discussed my religion with FH, and have found him to be a very good person, and in the end, FH has a lot to offer. I fully and deeply respect FH.

That being said, let us move into what Aph needs to do to make progress in attempting to recover her marriage.

There is devastation here.
I saw a semblance of a crack in you, Aph. But you are nowhere near broken. And your BH will need to see your brokenness if there is any hope of his feeling as though he might want to move ahead into a marriage with you.

Trust me in this.

You are, the living essence of my husband's OW. I know her personally, and have heard your spiel (is that how you spell it???) before - from her own lips.

You do not understand love, Aph. Not yet. If you think you love your husband, you must be preparing yourself for the test of that. Because if he had "performance" issues before, you are setting him up for questioning himself BIG TIME now. After you tell him about your escapades, he will be wondering about his sexual weaknesses, his inability to please you. He will know that you went seeking other men to do things with that he was not able to do. He will give up on himself. And those words that you so "lovinging" said to him in the past - well, they will ring so loudly in his ears, that he will not want to have sex with you. He might try, but when he is with you, he will have visions of you with the other men. He won't be able to prevent that. And your sex life with your husband, well, you will have ruined that for quite awhile. Talk about performance issues. The BS in many cases has issues with sex in recovering marriages for several years after an affair is exposed. Given that your BH already has issues, you have complained about his performance, and now you are putting these affairs in his lap.....your sex life with him is about to be NUKED. If ever there was going to be a test of your LOVE for him, it is NOW.

Prepare yourself for the worst, Aph, the worst sex life you have ever had with your husband, because that may very well be what you have set yourself up for.

Are you prepared for that?
Are you prepared to LOVE him through that?
Are you prepared to wait for him for at least two or more years of very hard, very difficult, and very painful work while he and you both recover from your affairs?

Because you will need to be able to do that, Aph.
Straight talk, from the horse's mouth.

See, this recovery thing, it isn't just about breaking the news to him. It's about lots, lots, more.

He will cry at first. He will ask the same questions, over and over, to see if you are lying to him. Whatever you do, resist the urge to lie. Even if you are lying to "protect his feelings", or "soften the blow", or "make things seem less than they were", or "keep him from being hurt so much", or "make him feel better about himself". Whatever you do, be careful about your words. Don't make the OM better than they were, or worse than they were. Just the facts. Don't glorify yourself, or blame them. Don't tell your husband that you were some sort of sex goddess, because, the fact is, you weren't. Those OM were DIFFERENT, that's all.

You need clarity on that front, by the way. If you had the same gourmet meal every single night, after several years, it would seem passe. Then, one night you were served a new meal, and it was just A PLAIN hamburger, you might think it was the greatest burger ever made. Fact is, it was just a burger. Nothing special. If you asked those OM's wives, those men are nothing special - just that they were on "special" for you, or maybe not even that. Maybe they were just themselves, who really knows? They lied to you, whether you care to believe it or not. Ask their wives for the wives' end of the story - I am more than happy to tell you, my husband LIED to his "friend with benefits", the whole time. She believed him. As you believed your OM.

You see, your story.....it is not so different, after all. What is different is that you posted here, and were brazenly lacking

SHAME and REMORSE.


Which is really what the uproar was about when it comes down to it.


For me, I have already met you, more than once, in my life. Truth be told, you resemble my older sister, Aph.

I fought you before, Aph, and won. I already have forgiven others just like you before in my life. And many worse than you.

So you see, I already know that the religious arguments are lost on you.

So I will not argue that way.

The problem with your marriage, unfortunately, is that I fear your husband will not want to recover with you.

Why?

Because he is currently away, and has been for a long time.
And he doesn't want to talk to you about anything regarding your relationship.

I think he already knows what you have done. See, he "gave his permission" for you to do some things with OM....and that tells me he gave up on you a long time ago, Aph. And maybe now he is making other plans. It is very often the case in long term infidelity that the BS knows what has been happening and makes other plans, becomes less communicative, and begins to detach. Some of the things you have said about your husband do describe this behavior.

You might want to be ready for HIS response. Perhaps his focus on getting a job is because he needs it so he can be ready for his independence from the marriage. I hope this is something you have considered.

Anyway, when or if you do talk to him, you might want your opening statement to be one that talks of your remorse and guilt. Starting there wouldn't be a bad idea.


I'm not so sure that you have much understanding of what the dynamics of recovery will be. I hope that reading the books will begin to enlighten you.

Everything else aside, Please, send your BH here when you let him know. He will need someone to help him with the aftermath. Tell him to let us know he's your husband.

SB

Hi schoolbus,


I'm sure I can do that with him because I know I can do it when I'm alone. I just can't online. And when I'm alone I can only let it go on so long before thinking about something else. But I'm thinking if I let it out a little at a time over a long period, maybe I'll be able to handle it better. Once I'm broken I'm going to have to snap out of it in a hurry in order to help him. You can't have two broken parents trying to raise two kids.


I'm definitely willing. As for prepared, by which I assume you mean something much more than just willingness...I'm doing everything I can do to make sure I can be prepared.

BTW, I found out I can get free counseling after all. There is a local source I didn't know about.


He had no choice but to go. There was no work here and I had to finish school. He's like that during every job hunt.


He never does when he's job hunting. He's always been like that from the beginning. It's just how he is.


Is it? Or is it about a lack of willingness to punish myself? If I thought punishing myself would help him, I would. But I don't think it would help him. I don't even think he would want that.


If that is true...then he gave up on me BEFORE I ever cheated. I was not involved with any sort of crush then or before. No emotional affairs, no nothing. If he gave up on me THAT early, it had nothing to do with my affairs. So I hope you are wrong. I should give him the benefit of the doubt for now because what I did was worse, but eventually I guess that's something we'll need to talk about.


True, but he does this during every job search, even before I started cheating. So it would be difficult for me to tell the difference.


Well that would be inconsistent with his position that if he has to take unemployment for awhile, I should get a job where he is now. Also, he wants a baby and isn't willing to wait much longer. I'm trying to stall him long enough for us to get back on our feet financially. And they say WOMEN have biological clocks! (Just a joke, not a slight in any way.)


Oh yeah, of course. Who wouldn't?


I'll send him to the board after, yes. Whether he wants to tell you who he is will have to be up to him. He might not be able to open up if he knows I'm also on the boards and who I am. Of course, I could disappear from the boards when he joins. It'll have to be something we talk about and both agree to. I'll let you know.

Your story initially caught my attention because I see elements of myself in your husband and elements of my wife in you. There is little need to go into my history as it lies in the past but the path you followed is one close to my personal experience with my wife. For this reason there is something I can perhaps help you with if you’re willing to consider some of what I might suggest.

Lots of discussion of religion in this thread; I personally respect but not necessarily honor the religious or atheist beliefs of all men and women so long as they do not infringe on my pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Lots of philosophical implications in the above sentence with a good dose of our very own Constitution; the inalienable rights, what a wonderful concept.

Now, back to your own issues and hopefully some useful suggestions.

First I would be pleased to offer you a general hypothesis of affairs as follows: “Both husband and wife will become enriched with the full exposure of affair activity. Further, if such exposure is made with the objective of saving the marriage then the marriage is given the best chance to flourish.”

Of course, you have already described in detail the difficulties and doubts that cause you to worry that your exposure could end your marriage.

No hypothesis is complete without the theory that underlines its proposed tenets. When you tell your husband of your indiscretions you will benefit from 1.) Freeing you from the burden of harboring a dreadful lie and 2.) You will have indirectly surfaced the major disconnect in your marriage and thus allows your husband to address his own shortcomings.

Like all the great hypotheses, a little bit of empirical evidence is required to support its belief. You can certainly find lots of empirical evidence right here in these pages, lots and lots of marriages that have been saved. All across the internet are similar success examples. (However, I think that the largest body of success exists with the marriages right here). There is NO stronger or more effective wakeup call in a marriage then the discovered act of infidelity. You each will either work on the marriage or divorce as there is seldom a middle ground. The exposure will start in motion a cascade of emotional confession the likes of what you have NEVER experienced. It will likely be terrifying to both of you but at the same time you each may find that you have been starved for this confrontation for so very long. I might wonder if you are both currently living in separate Purgatories where bouts of happiness are short lived and always surrounded by elements of loneliness. I suspect that you miss what your husband once meant to you. I bet he feels the same.

Your description of your current relationship with your husband has lost much of its functionality. You have already described to us all the how’s and why’s that your relationship has progressed to the current state where most all conversations are one-sided with his male imprint guiding it in his direction and to your detriment. In the meantime you are actually the one holding the cards. Unknown to him you have built a secret emotional world. It is complete with a host of male friends that relate to you on equal footing. With your secret world you really have little need to press for solutions in your own marriage. In your secret world you can satisfy your need for intimacy any time the need surfaces and you don’t need your husband’s concurrence, or presence to do so. He has lost a piece of necessary relevance in your life but he is unaware that it has even happened. Perhaps he just believes that your marriage is progressing in a normal manner when in fact there is much going on that he cannot begin to address because he is ignorant of what is really happening. The sad fact is that even if you were to forever practice fidelity he would feel no need to change his learned patterns of behavior and that means that you would both be cheated out of having the chance to leave your current state.

You can change that.

Mr. G

APH:

I thought Goodstuff was no longer here. I believe that he is the most qualified person I know of, both by temperment, attitude, aptitude and knowledge, to help you. Goodstuff is, uh, real good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

Mr. Goodstuff,

Thank you. You are definitely right about everything. I have become convinced that I should tell him everything. Now it's just a matter of timing. I want to be with him when I tell him.

And I definitely do miss what he once meant to me. He was my best friend. When we were first married, he was my whole world. I even missed him during the day when he went to work. A year-long absence for work reasons would have been unthinkable back then.

One other thought. As much as he will be able to help you, if he has the time and interest, he may even be of more value to your husband.

As you can tell, I am a fan of Goodstuff. He is aptly named.

Larry

Larry,

LOL! Yes, I can see that already.

I suppose that for a wayward spouse disclosure of an affair to their partner is likely one of the hardest things they will ever do. I thought (and still think) that you could use reassurance that disclosure is not only the right thing to do, but it is much, much more than that; it will give you and your husband a chance to again experience the closeness and love that your relationship was born from. If you perhaps make that thought your mantra you will perhaps find the courage to do what you know must be done.

I would like to ask you a question or perhaps give you something else to consider while you wait for your husband’s return. I happen to support your position of waiting for him to return before you disclose, after all, I expect that you need every second to prepare yourself. So let’s begin to prepare…

If you were to first reveal your disclosure in a letter what would it say?

Mr. G

Mr. G,

I would say something like this. I've been keeping something from you, and you're going to hate it but you need to know. I've been stupid and selfish for a long time. I thought at one time that what you didn't know wouldn't hurt you but I see now how stupid that is and how it probably has contributed to our emotional distance. I feel sick that I didn't recognize the harm I was doing and that you probably knew something was wrong but didn't know what.

Damn. I'm stuck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Heheheh (in a good way)

It is not as easy as it first appears. Even in this land of anonymity it is difficult to state what has happened but your effort says something in of itself.

So far your letter looks like this,



I think what you have outlined so far is “excellent”. I might suggest to you that when you said, “and you’re going to hate it,” might be better left unsaid or said differently as it is not up to you (or anyone else but him) to decide what he will or won’t “hate”. When we attempt to second guess the reaction in others by stating it as a fact, we often fall prey to a big love buster called a, “disrespectful judgment”. For instance, “You don’t love me anymore!” is a disrespectful judgment whereas, “I am worried that you don’t love me anymore,” is a plea for help. See the difference? It becomes about what “you feel” in lieu of telling him what he is feeling.

So, you say you are stuck. Could it perhaps be difficult to say the obvious, “I have betrayed you.” I get the feeling that you know what to say but do not know the right way to say it, am I close? Perhaps the best way is to say it is to simply “say it”. “I HAVE BETRAYED YOU.”

Consider that “he” is not the only person that you betrayed. Perhaps there is one other to consider in your betrayal. Can you guess who it is? It is YOU!

In a world far, far away you were once deeply in love with your husband and his care and well being was the most important of all. Somehow (your upcoming journeys will tell you “how”) you lost your way. I wonder if through a series compromises and rationalizations you betrayed him and yourself in the process. Is the person who had these internet affairs the same person that you want to be? Your husband may want to know the answer to this question.

Mr. G

Mr. G,

True. That's not who I want to be. I let the first affair define who I was, and because what I did could not be undone I didn't consider change as a serious possibility. I felt defective.

Okay, next shot at the letter:

Husband,

I've been keeping something from you, and it's very bad news but you need to know. I've been stupid and selfish for a long time. I betrayed you by being unfaithful. I thought at one time that what you didn't know wouldn't hurt you but I see now how stupid that is and how it probably has contributed to our emotional distance. I feel sick that I didn't recognize the harm I was doing and that you probably knew something was wrong but didn't know what.

I was also betraying myself because this is not who I want to be. I'm tired of living a double life full of secrets and lies. I want us to be close like we used to be. That's why I'm telling you this. I'm not telling you just to unload my guilt and make myself feel better. I'm not telling you out of fear of getting caught. There was a time when you and the kids were my whole world. I don't like the world I'm in now.

I love you. I never stopped loving you - I was just blind to the harm I was causing. I want you to know that not once did I ever want to leave you to be with someone else. That's not what it was about. I can't imagine raising kids or growing old with anyone but you.

I know that the trust in our marriage is broken now. You have every right to leave, but if you choose to stay I'm willing to do anything necessary to repair it, and I also know you have no reason to trust me anytime soon. So I'll make sure you don't have to. I'll tell you everything you want to know. You'll have all my email passwords. I'll make sure that every time we're apart all my time is accounted for. You'll always know where I am and who I'm with for as long as necessary.

I've been reading about what people go through after infidelity is discovered. So I know that it may take you about two years to recover, and I'm willing to do whatever I can to help you. If you need to yell at me, I'll sit quietly and listen for as long as I possibly can. In the event that it gets to be too much, I will not argue back or try to defend myself. I'll simply ask for break and go into another room. I'll do whatever you need.

----

That's all I have so far. Is it enough? I figure if he wants the details of the affairs themselves, I'll hand him a separate letter.

The draft letter that you have composed has allowed you to organize your thoughts. If you want it to be the mechanism to disclose your affairs to your husband then you might want to consider dropping the last two paragraphs as the information in them is really better said after you disclose and your husband has his first opportunity to process this new information. Believe me when I suggest that you will indeed cover that ground too.

The most important thing to remember is that telling him through a letter or face to face, is the fact that it is YOU telling him, it is you “coming clean”. You will get NO extra credit points from him immediately but over time he will likely come to realize that your unforced disclosure was a very brave and noble thing to do. I’m guessing that it is the first brave and noble thing you have done in a long time. It will take time but he too will see that and it will help you and him by making the road just a little bit easier.

What I like best about your letter is that you place NO blame on him for the choices you have made. I might suggest to you that that is a very, very important position. You see, you each get 100 percent credit for the choices that each of you make. In the end, the right or wrong in all this mess will begin to lose its significance. It will be replaced by the importance of preserving your relationship. But for that to happen it is necessary that you each arrive at a state where “you offer no defense and take no offense”. I’m afraid I’ve gotten ahead of myself.

The time for disclosure is approaching. When you see him you may fall prey to rationalizing your way out of confessing. I suggest that you take the letter you wrote and keep it with you at all times. When you first see him he will likely have much to discuss with you but only you know what belongs on the true agenda. Search for an opening and then use your strength to take the “important step” to change your life for the better. Telling him face to face or through your letter will accomplish your objective, you pick the method.

One last thing, many here will suggest that disclosure should be through a third party such as a marriage counselor. They would be correct in that disclosure in such a fashion is the safe way. Suffice to say that affair disclosures that take place in the office of a psychologist are very rare. If you feel that your safety is in danger then by all means, take measures to protect yourself. You may elect to leave the letter where he can find it and leave the house and have him call you on your cell phone. I prefer the letter method as I think it provides for an uninterrupted confession but truly, the method of disclosure is yours.

Mr. G

Mr. G,

Thank you so much! I wrote out the letter but dropped the last two paragraphs as you suggested.

I have no fear for my safety other than possibly being stranded at a counselor's office if I tell him there. So if I go that route, I will have to make sure I have an alternative method to get home.

His usual reaction to any marital conflict is to run off to be by himself and/or threaten me with divorce. It used to upset me but now I know he doesn't mean it. The trouble is, this is much more serious and he might say it and mean it, but how would I know? I would have no idea how to react.

My fear is that you have planned for every contingency...except the one you will get.

You have always been calculating. You are calculating this.

What if you did the math wrong?

piojitos,

Asking what if he divorces me is like asking what if he dies before I do. There's nothing I can do about it either way and the only way to prepare is financially.

“Usual” is a word that you and he will not be using very much (that is probably a good thing).

What is his ETA from his business assignment?

Mr. G

How about a final thought that just tells him that you are willing to love him through this, that you are in the process of learning to do that - and that you have begun to make changes with this in mind? That when, if, he is ready, you are too?

Just a short sentence would do.

It would have helped me tremendously if my husband had done something like that - to know that he cared enough to prepare to love me through it. And to prepare himself to do so.



SB

sb, good idea. I'll add something like that also.

Mr. G,


What's an ETA? If you mean the date his contract is up, it is up the second week of July. He's a computer IT/telecom/network professional.

recognize that you also owe an explanation and apology to every wife that you have harmed too. Any of the WS that slept with you that have a wife at home deserve notification from you and if I were your H I would be appreciative of you having the contact information for those families ready to go as soon as you disclose. He can contact the OBS as soon as he sees fit and then your NC letters should be sent out immediately afterwards by your H.
ETA is estimated time of arrival.
Make sure that if your H decides to divorce you over this... and lets hope he doesn't... that you make that process as painless as possible for him. Realize that because you were unfaithful that no matter what the courts may or may not say, it will not be fair of you to walk away from your M with more than the minimum that you can live on. Your H should not suffer ANY financial loss as a result of your actions. In fact if he decides to stay...in addition to your passwords, you should offer to sign a post nuptual agreement that states that in the event of a divorce, he gets all the marital assets.
Good luck.

mk,

Like I said, because of past history if my husband tells me he wants a divorce I have no way of knowing if he's serious or not. Because he cried wolf so many times I'll have to assume he's not until he files papers. After that, then yeah I'd want it to be amicable. But I wouldn't want to give him a divorce just so he can tell me 3 months later he wants me back.

A post-nuptual agreement and even a pre-nuptual agreement is just a plan to divorce. This is one of those cases in which having a fall-back plan means you WILL fall back. I do not believe in them.

As for assets, we don't have any. As for the kids, I would have to take them because he can't handle the medical problems they have now and he doesn't know how to cook. I don't want to go into that, though.

As for the other wives, one of them already knows and her husband has been faithful for two years. Writing her a letter now wouldn't do anything but hurt her.

Another can't be contacted - the OM moved away. I have no idea where he is now.

The other one is married to a man who was doing men long before I was with him. Their marriage has much bigger problems than just me, and it's not my place to tell her her husband is bisexual. I don't even know her.

You're just so smart and seem to have an answer for everything, don't you.

I would suggest regardless of what YOU may think is going on in those marriages, you still owe those women the truth of what you did with their husbands.

You don't get to decide if they need to know or not, or if it will benefit their marriages or lives in some way. The point is you tell them so THEY can make those decisions for themselves.

Lets try this excuse on for size, Aph. YOU don't want to be inconvenienced or put in an uncormfortable situation by having to revisit those adulterous situations in writing where you're apologizing for them.

Jo

exactly Jo.

Working on One Self

[color:"blue"] Lesson Two:

Cease using your intelligence to manipulate people and situations where you benefit (passively or not) from the outcome

Defer to Lesson One [Be Honest] [/color]

I heartily agree with this sentiment.

Jo,


Okay, I admit I'm making excuses because I'm not ready for that step now. But it's not apologizing I'm afraid of. It's that the two married OMs I still have contact information for were friends of mine for years (even before anything inappropriate happened.) I still care about one of them in particular. I've already betrayed my husband and ratting them out would feel like I'm betraying them too. I know there is no sympathy here for OPs, but what they did is no worse than what I did.

I may feel differently at a later date, but it's scary as heck to me now.

integrity. look it up.

Secular Humanism at it's best? So much for the "new you" and your recommitment to your chosen "value system." It really is, in your mind, all "just relative," isn't it? You just can't see that because of the dense fog.

This is just another example of WHY giving advice to you is a waste of time right now. You STILL don't get it and you STILL want to remain "in control" and making decisions for everyone else based upon what you want. And you'll find a rationalization and justification to support ANY "want."

One more time, Aphaeresis... WHY should your husband believe anything you are going to tell him about "giving up" your selfishness and that he should remain married to you?


And I wonder how a newly Betrayed Spouse, reading this self-serving stuff, would feel about the chances of recovery his/her own marriage with their Wayward Spouse?

I think about my friends, and wonder if I could ever care so little for them that I would help them to destroy their own integrity, along with their marriage and families by having meaningless, shallow sex with them. Telling myself all the while that I have sexual needs that need to be met outside of my own committed relationship/marriage.

I think somewhere along the line your perspective of love, sex and marriage have become so skewed that it is difficult even for me (I had lived a free wheeling single's life for years) to understand or relate to in any way.

You're view is so strange that you even call the likes of Mel a prude. These ladies, committed, Resilient, Mel are among the most passionate women I have ever had the pleasure of reading.

Do you understand passion, Aph? Do you ever go to bed with a passion so strong that it is still burning strong into the morning hours when you get up and meet the day again? A passion that over-flows into your marriage, your job, your relations with your children? It is sometimes called a purpose, and it starts with a deep love and concern for your own family, and the families of others. And when you are really lucky, it over-flows into the sex life you have with your husband. This is what the ladies on here know, and live. To call them prudes is laughable, and it is incredibly sad to see someone miss the mark so completely as you have seem to have done.

Ark had posted an essay on the sacredness of sex. I cannot find it any longer but I wish I could post it to you now.

I think you see the sunny side of the street, so to speak and are trying to find a way over to that side. If this is the case, I commend you and wish you all the best in your journey.

If this is not the case and you are simply playing a game here, well then I think you would be an excellent example for M. Scott Peck to use in his next "People of the Lie" book. Because the words that are coming out of your mouth are totally berift (is that a word) of any spiritualism, or enlightenment at all.

Aph-

Just a thought. You do know that one of the first things your H is going to do is to want the 'list' of who all you've slept with, right? What do you think HIS reaction is going to be? Odds are high that he's going to insist a couple of things...one, of course that you no longer maintain ANY kind of friendship/relationship/contact with them of any kind whatsoever.

The second is very likely going to be that you tell their spouses...or he will.

It's GOING to happen. That damage was done when you slept with them...it was just delayed until now. However, you're now afforded the opportunity to try to make right, ON YOUR OWN.

So, where do you go from here?

This is what is bothering me the most about your thread. It's your perspective "ratting them out", "betraying them too".

You do realize that it takes total honesty to live a life of integrity, as well as have a marriage of intimacy.

When you believe to your very core that sex/affairs outside of a committed relationship is harmful on many different levels, as well as to your marriage, to all who participate than you will not be able to comprehend participating in it.

When you finally understand that other people (your spouse, the spouses of the O/M's you had affairs with) are every bit as valuable and important as you are, you will want them to have the information they need to make the choices they need to make with their lives.

In other words the practice of deception as it relates to other human beings, and not just as it relates to yourself will be intolerable to you.

And harming yourself or others will be something you can no longer do.

I think of these kinds of realizations "the gift of grace", or "God's grace".

Because it is a gift of grace to finally get to this place, and it is amazing to see the changes in your life and perspective once you get it.

I hope this for you Aph, and then you will know true happiness and peace.

I keep reading your thread trying to get a sense of your sincerity. It's hard to tell when someone is so totally at odds with what you believe, as you are with me, but I think you are sincere, I hope you are for your sake so that you can know joy in your life and in your marriage once again.

Aphaeresis,

I was very disappointed to see you call people who don’t believe in premarital sex and/or people that believe sex is supposed to be a beautiful act/gift between 2 people who love each other, “prudes” and “frigid” people. This is a DJ, totally untrue and a very skewed and wrong perception. I don’t believe in premarital sex too because of my religious beliefs. I view sex as a very sacred, beautiful and intimate act/gift between a husband and wife…a deep way of expressing their love and desire for each other. I believe anything less than that makes sex cheap and shallow…and God did NOT created sex to be used & abused as a cheap and irresponsible act between human beings.

htis argument will fall on deaf ears since she does not believe in God... which is her right. Her views about things other than God...since some very intelligent people deny the existence of any god(s)...are very childish at best. Look at her arguments for not exposing to the OMW's. Clearly this is a woman that not only lacks the integrity to see her way out of this...she also obviously lacks the wisdom and desire to do so. Her own words point to her lack of understanding and caring regarding every victim of her whorish activities (note, activity... not person). This is a woman that just clearly doesn't see that there is a world beyond the end of her nose(or tongue).

MEDC

OKAY, well DUH...You are all in the same boat in this...You all BETRAYED and VICTIMIZED other people...NONE of you have that right...Just as your husband deserves the truth about his life, so do the other innocent spouses involved...Why wouldn't they? It matters not how they get the truth, only that they get it, so don't come and argue that it would be better if their husbands told them, because that is bullcrap, and not even good bullcrap...Aph, they are YOUR VICTIMS...YOU OWE THEM...And guess what, if you need to feel somehow altruistic in this, your OMs would BENEFIT from this in the long run as well...WAYWARD IS NOT A GREAT THING TO BE-IT IS HORRIFIC AND BAD FOR EVERYONE...It would give the OMs the chance to live a good life-to live "authentically" if you will...Living a LIE is not good for anyone...I fully expect you to change your mind...Today even...Whaddaya say?

Mrs. W

*THUD*

You KNOW that this woman is being exposed to someone that engages in risky sexual practices-and really that includes ALL of your OMs, not just this "bisexual" one...Anyway, you have information that this woman could very well LOSE HER LIFE...That's right, she could DIE...And you want to sit on that??? How does not telling fit with the tenets of Secular Humanism that you posted???


Your not telling violates TONS of these principles-I was gonna bold the ones that applied but so many of them do and you seem quite intelligent, so I'm sure you can figure that out for yourself...You say that you now want to adhere to SecHum, that doing so is important to you...So what gives?

Mrs. W

APH:

Lemme see if I can add some clarity:


Following that train of thought, you betrayed your husband, yourself, the OP and the OP's wife. What your adultery partners did is no worse OR NO BETTER than what you did, true. You were an enabler of the betrayal of the OP's wife. Yea, if not you, then somebody. But that begs the issue. The OP's wife was betrayed, you facilitated that betrayal and honesty is as honesty does, no half measures.

Assuming that you are going to come clean, that means come clean, not half clean. And you owe the OP's exactly zero, nothing; they took the risk of consequences and made their choice, something that their wives were not allowed, the choice.

You continue to betray the OP's wives unless you do the right thing. So who deserves betrayal here, the OP or the OP's wives? Who had a choice and who didn't.

Larry

Mrs. W and Larry,

Your arguments are persuasive. I just hate the idea of making things worse than they already are or directly causing more pain than I have already. I'll think about it. I think my husband should be the first one I tell.

I have a question specific to my first OM's wife. She caught him two years ago, knows about me and he's been faithful for two years. So she already knows the truth. Wouldn't an apology from me now just bring up a painful trigger? She doesn't know me so I can't imagine why she would care whether I was sorry. I don't think I would.

You're view is so strange that you even call the likes of Mel a prude. These ladies, committed, Resilient, Mel are among the most passionate women I have ever had the pleasure of reading.

Ty for the compliment weaver. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sex can be GREAT when it's with the person that you are "committed" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> to...as in married.

I know that I set rules early in my life in regards to sex.

I can attend every high school and college reunion and KNOW that not one guy there has seen me nekkid....and never groped me...let alone had SEX with me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

It's nice to mingle and not have that vision in my head <shudder>.

AND...I am far from a prude. I am very selective as to who I share that part of me with. It has to be a person that I feel safe with, and 100% emotionally vested in...which would ALWAYS be the person that I am married to.

I am looking forward to being married again one day. I know that my husband won't be disappointed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

committed

And now that plenty inappropriate has happened, they can never be your friends ever, ever again. Why do you still have contact information for these philanderers?


And you don't care enough about your H 2 take the extraordinary precautions 2 protect him from your addiction, do you?


You are STILL betraying your H. Not past tense. You owe the OMs nothing but COMPLETE and PERMANENT silence!


And no better either, apparently.


Welcome 2 consequences.

-ol' 2long

Aph, I'll answer you with one of the principles from your Secular Humanist post...



Now you answer me...What do you think you should do if you are, in fact, now adhering to those principles?

Mrs. W

Aph,

It was the full intention of the OW in my case to never tell me.

She was, supposedly, my FRIEND.

(Gives that word some meaning I had not lent it before!)

Yes, she owed me an apology. Whether it was two years, two months, or two days in coming, it was owed.

Whether or not I knew her.

I would say, you owe her the dignity of at least a card in the mail, with a sincere apology for the destruction you have wrought on her life. For you have, in fact, done at least that. And two years? It isn't a flash in the pan, Aph. Not when you are the BS.

But you don't know that. Not yet.

As far as telling the OM's wives:

I lived knowing something was wrong. I didn't know what it was. It ate me alive, every single day, but I had no idea that it was as bad as it was.

I didn't want to know it was an affair, but I did want to know what it was.

Again, you are making decisions for other people. You have placed your own wants above those of others.

You want to be able to escape from the consequences of your affairs. You cannot. EVEN IF you don't ever tell your husband. Because, you will live with the gift of the guilt. You are here because something inside of you is shifting - and you came here because you know that you have to take steps to rectify this situation, one way or the other.

You don't like it. Nobody does.

And the BS in this case will not like it either - not your husband, and not the wives of your OM.

But, your husband has the right to know. You have figured that out. You have figured out that the only way you can have a marriage that can be strong, happy, and solid is if you get this affair-business cleared out.

And if you can, move ahead together, through this very difficult time, and rebuild in love, in spite of the turmoil and hurt. To find each other again, and to regain that love you once had, that you know is there inside the both of you. To use that as your foundation, and to build a new marriage on the rubble of the affairs.

I wonder why you are denying the other couples the same right?

Why do you deny those women the right to make that decision for themselves?

Because it will hurt?
Because it will be hard?

For them?
For their husbands?
Or for you?


Or is it......Aph........


That you have finally come to feel what I have hoped for?


Shame
and
Remorse


And you do not want to let the OM's wives know because it means that everyone will see what you have done, and see what you had become?

I am thankful for seeing this weakness, Aph.

Truly. Because it means you are close to being broken.

And you need to be broken in order to clear your fog.

SB

2long,


Because as far as I know, they haven't changed their email addresses, although I could be wrong. Come to think of it, though, that wouldn't help me find contact info for the wives. But it doesn't matter, I think I remember enough information to track them down.

-----

Mrs. W and everybody,

My dilemma is this. Because she already knows, honesty is not the issue. It is true that people should apologize for things they did wrong. It's also true that it's wrong to cause someone pain. But what if the apology itself is more painful than not saying anything at all? Maybe any contact from me would simply cause her pain no matter what I said. So I'm left with - which option would cause her less pain - leaving her alone or apologizing?

As for the other wife, yeah I'll write something after my husband knows everything. And the third if there is any way to contact her, but there might not be. I'll include copies of some of Dr. Harley's articles. I would really like the truth to result in better marriages and not divorce, especially when I'm the messenger <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Aph,

You probably posted this in one of your beginning threads, so forgive me if you did -

What made you decide to stop cheating and work on your marriage? What triggered all of this apparent desire to change?

Of course honesty isn't the issue. Dishonesty, deceit, avoidance of personal responsibility are just some of the "issues." You rationalize that "she knows he was unfaithful" and negate the necessity of sincere and abject remorse for the part you played in the willful rape of HER marriage. Her husband held her down, decidedly against her will, and you raped her and took was hers exclusively to hold or give up. You had ZERO right to what belonged to her.

But then that "right" is inherent in your adherence to a tenet of Secular Humanism that allows you the "right" to do whatever you feel like doing in the sexual arena:

Mature adults [color:"red"]should[/color] be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences

"Should be" means simply that this tenet gives the individual the right to do whatever they think they want to do. And Secular Humanists CLAIM that "right" for themselves. Why is that? That answer is contained in another tenet of Secular Humanism that you have stated you embrace:

We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.

A "nice sounding" tenet, until it begins to be applied to justifying what someone wants to do that WILL hurt others. Forget "parochial loyalties" of FIDELITY in marriage. Forget "parochial" VOWS that are BINDING upon the marital partners. "Religion" says "Thou shalt NOT commit adultery." But that's parochial and "religious" and all good Secular Humanists MUST reject and deny anything that supposedly comes from any God that really doesn’t exist, because Secular Humanists SAY that God doesn't exist. Therefore, ANYTHING like a Commandment is nothing more that perhaps a somewhat "practical" suggestion and philosophy of OTHER humans.

Oh, but wait, Secular Humanists might say, but we support monogamy and fidelity in marriage as the "best choice" and that is arrived at by our human reason and seeing the results of marriages that are not monogamous and that lack fidelity. However, it is only a suggestion that a believer in Secular Humanism can choose for themselves and for how to live their own life. It is NOT a commandment that we have a right to "impose" on anyone. Each person is free to choose for himself or herself what is "right" for them.

The tenet of Secular Humanism that trumps any such "constraint on MY behavior" is:

We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are [color:"red"]open to[/color] novel ideas [color:"red"]and seek[/color] new departures in our thinking.

There are NO "absolutes." Secular Humanists actively SEEK "departures" from the "norm" and from what we may have "thought" was right.





Why is that true? Apologizing for "wrongs" committed means that there MUST be a "right way of behaving" that was violated, and in the case of adultery, WILLFULLY violated. But if "departures from" what is the accepted "norm" is what is actively sought and what a Secular Humanist is "open to," there ARE NO absolutes and, therefore, right and wrong is merely relative. "I wanted it. I took it. It is my right to pursue my own aspirations regardless of what your "parochial" thinking might be."




We are in agreement on this, but "pain" is sometimes necessary, and therefore NOT "wrong." Sometimes pain MUST be faced and accepted because there cannot be healing without "cutting out" the disease or ever-present painful lesion or scar tissue that is limiting a "full range of motion."

It is wrong to cause someone willful, malicious, unnecessary pain.




Avoiding necessary pain is not only wrong, but it serves the "self-centered interests" of the one person at the expense of another. That "justifies," or at least "rationalizes," the idea that "well, they already know that they were the victim of adultery, so I don't have to do anything to accept responsibility for what I did to them because it might cause them further pain or bad feelings." "I don't have to REALLY change my thoughts and beliefs on the subject of "sexual freedom" for each individual, much less that adultery is WRONG, absolutely wrong, in ALL cases."

You leave her, and her marriage, alone AFTER you have done what is necessary. But only IF you truly now embrace that FIDELITY in marriage is "non-negotiable" and an "absolute right" that is NOT open to "personal interpretation" in order to justify getting perceived sexual needs met by anyone you might choose OTHER THAN your spouse.




Procrastination of what is needed is something that we all struggle with from time to time. Never mind her right to know and her need to know as soon as it is within your power to inform her.

You might want to review the Hippocratic Oath that Doctors take for guidance on this one.




Your "job" is NOT to educate, it is to abjectly apologize for your actions. What the adultery results in for their marriage is NOT your concern. You, and her husband, CHOSE divorce for their marriage when you CHOSE adultery. What happens to her marriage is HER choice, the Wayward Spouse and the Other Woman do NOT have a "say in it," nor do you have any right to "suggest" to her that she MUST forgive her husband and not divorce. That is HER choice, and her choice alone.

Aphaeresis, these are the CONSEQUENCES of sin. I know you don't believe in sin, so lets just say that these are the consequences of choices that DO impact others in harmful ways. How THEY react to it will depend entirely upon their own beliefs, their own spouse's remorse, and your sincere repentance (yes, I know, another "religious" word) of what you did to her marriage.

We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

The "authoritarian elites and repressive majorities" have stated clearly that Marriage is an exclusive arrangement between ONE man and ONE woman while they are married. I understand that adherents to Secular Humanism REJECT the "imposition" of this "thought" because it would then put constraints on THEM, and they want to be able to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, TO BE open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking."

Perhaps you may want to rethink some of those "novel ideas and new departures in thinking." Sometimes the "old way" IS the "best way" and not just "relative." Sometimes surrendering our own WILL to another's will IS the best, right, and only true good thing to do because they have the RIGHT to "impose" their will on us as "non-negotiable." Yes, it IS "parochial," but that does not make it "wrong." We can choose to disobey, but then we are by definition committing a willful wrong that will harm others just to "get what we want."

Changing, or letting go, of deeply held beliefs, even when someone recognizes and admits that they are wrong, is NOT easy because it may well change many things, including how we see ourselves. But change is sometimes necessary when dealing with truth, rather than continuing to live a lie simply because that is what we WANT to do. Sometimes change, necessary and needed change, MEANS that I am no longer "free" to do whatever I desire, and giving up that right is what many people don't WANT to do.

Aph...

Just because she already knows of the adultery does NOT release you from your responsibility...I'm also curious, does she actually know about YOU or just about adultery in general? Further, let's be real here, WSs LIE, so you don't really KNOW if she has the full truth at all, and YES, she does deserve the full truth about her life...The wound has already been inflicted, the pain is already there...Your responsibility is to make certain that she knows the truth about what YOU did to her and to apologize SINCERELY for that wrongdoing...This is one of the first steps towards regaining your integrity and living authentically...


Ok, I think you should go ahead and do this NOW...You are going to need to concentrate all of your energies on helping your husband heal after you tell him AND I also think it may go a long way to show him how very serious and sincere that you are about genuine remorse and change...

DO NOT send those BWs ANYTHING at all in the way of adultery education...That would be a slap in the face and not at all welcomed from YOU...Think about how you would feel in the reverse situation Aph, would you want any materials from someone who had been screwing your husband??? Sending them MB stuff is one sure fire way to insure that they don't EVER consider using MB to recover their marriages...THINK EMPATHY APH, EMPATHY...

I caution you to treat this with the seriousness that it demands, you sound very flip when you say "yeah I'll write something"...This is MAJOR...Match your tone to the gravity and sensitivity of the situation at hand...

Mrs. W

Alp,

May I make a suggestion to you? It has always seemed to me that the best and strongest relationships are the ones that place their spouse as the most important, ahead of ALL family including children. In your effort to reconnect with your husband you may need to re-learn this. By that I mean that your history of involvement with other men and your husband’s loss of consideration of you, have resulted in the state that you currently find yourself and all the reparations should be for the benefit of you and your husband before anything else.

The real implications are much larger. At this point where you have yet to disclose your affairs to your husband, it may perhaps be premature to address issues of your integrity and honesty with respect to the other men and their wives. I suggest that a best thing that you can do for yourself and your husband to “close the book” on your past actions subject only to his inquires. If you never hear nor see any sight of them again then that will be healthy for you and your husband. I really see little value to you and your husband to make any further contact with the OMen or their wives. Stick with NO CONTACT, none, nothing, no emails, no phone calls, no nothing. Do whatever you must to make their contact with you impossible.

Concentrate on the things that will make YOUR husband better to the exclusion of ALL else and I expect that you too will become better.

Mr. G

weaver,

Well, a whole bunch of things started coinciding at once. My husband has baby fever in spite of our financial (and marital) difficulties. I have managed to convince him to wait until things are better financially. My latest OM was about to move out of the area just as I found a different message board about infidelity by accident (a link from a letter in the Savage Love sex advice column.) When I first got there I talked about how I wished I could talk my husband into an open marriage. But then there were a lot of guys whose wives had cheated on them talking about how hard it was to take, and I started asking them questions. In retrospect, I think my wish for an open marriage was an expression of my unhappiness with all the secrets, deceit and lies. That's the part I was never happy with. And they all seemed to agree that you can't give your spouse your full attention when there's someone else, even if you think you do, and the spouse always knows something is wrong. That bothered me.

And Larry was there, too. I remember he said I have to deal with my husband as he is, not as I'd like him to be. And of course he was an example of someone who had forgiven his wife and has happy - that was important. He's the one who really started to pull me out of "the fog" and saved me from myself. When I decided I was going to quit, he directed me to this site and board.

ForeverHers,

I don't appreciate you twisting my words or deliberately misinterpreting Secular Humanism in order to promote your own religious agenda. Get this through your head: I am NOT converting! Conversion only happens when someone is dissatisfied with their own philosophy or religion. I am not. The fact that you don't like Secular Humanism means nothing to me.

Mrs. W,


What I meant is that she knows about me in particular. What you are saying above is that apologizing would be good for ME, but I'm asking if it would be good for her. I don't see the point in inflicting additional harm if it's not going to do her any good.


Oh sure and then one of my OMs can retaliate by telling my husband before I tell him. Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but that's not happening.


In the reverse situation, there is no way I would ever want an apology letter in the first place. I would not want any contact from her at all. ANY contact would be a slap in the face. I would most likely not believe her if she did apologize, and I certainly wouldn't care even if she was sincere. That's giving her too much power. I would think: How dare she think I would care how she feels about it one way or another? Now if she had been a friend or one of my sisters then MAYBE it would make a difference, but I'm not even sure then. That's why I'm having a hard time understanding why a wife would want such a letter.

Mr. G,



Yeah I think that's best, especially since it would take some detective work to find these women and contact them without communication being intercepted by their husbands.

Alp, you will learn much by sticking around here. Your education into the ways of life and love has already begun but will not begin in earnest until your disclosure. That day will mark a significant milestone in your life.

The discussion of the merits to disclose to the wives of your affair partners would likely help benefit their marriages. It would be a forced disclosure that for a time would most certainly keep you involved in the other men’s lives. They would benefit in a similar manner as you will with your disclosure to your husband. Although that sounds like the high road it really does little for you and even less for your husband.

Worrying about the OM’s wives will come at your husband’s expense. I suggest that it is your husband who needs your attention and no one else. Issues of your integrity and honesty will solve themselves within your marriage and no one else’s.

I hope you consider some of what I have suggested.

Mr. G

Aph, if you choose to not apologize and inform these other women of the harm that you caused their marriage, IMHO you will never be a person of character and are denying even the most basic tenets of sec-hum.
Frankly, your failure to do this will be a slap in the face to every BS that was ever kept in the dark by some self centered, no character OW/M.

MEDC’s observation is true to the mark and 100 percent correct. Fortunately for you and your husband, you are not here for betrayed spouses and you are not their keeper or their surrogate savior. You are ONLY here to save your marriage and your husband, no one else. Your plate is full and your duty is to YOUR marriage. I suggest that ALL your effort go into YOUR family and NO one else’s.

You don’t know what WE look like, who we are or where we came from. We are expendable to you, but your family is not. Take this most important possession and heal it and protect it. Use every tool at your disposal to accomplish this objective. Just remember one thing, it all starts with your disclosure. To that there can be no compromise.

Remember this, “good people sometimes do bad things.” The most important question that will remain with you for a long, long time is, “who are you today?” Protect your husband and keep him safe.

Mr. G

Mr G... your advice about this is immoral and frankly it sucks in this case.
I assume Mr G that you are a BS...or are you a former WS? If it is the latter, perhaps you should keep you opinions to yourself about when a BS should be told about an A. It sounds a bit like WS thinking to me.

100% agree with you MEDC...It's ridiculous advice, IMO...Way to help someone regain their integrity Mr. G...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Aph, listening to Mr. G on this is a great way to keep yourself stuck...sigh...

Mrs. W

Aph, I urge you to listen to MEDC and MrsW.

You see Aph, you have damaged those women as have their husbands, behing their back s and they deserve to know the truth. Their husbands may be cheating still with other OW and exposing them to deadly diseases. Or their marriages may have gone to hel[i][/i]l in a handbasket and they don't know why.

In any case, they deserve the truth about their own lives.

I sure would want to know wouldn't you?

MrG -I can only assume that you never tols the OM's W. (I thought you were a BS). But this is very much wayward thinking.

Mrs. W and BK.... thanks for the follow up. Your unwavering committment to not only MB ideals but also integrity and morality shows that FWS and BS alike can have a common goal of just doing the right thing. Mr G's advice smacks of .. "do what is right for me and damn everyone else." It's sad to see that and really is nothing more than enabling fuzzy WS thinking.
Notice how quick Aph was willing to jump at the solution which conrinues to allow her to act in a self centered way.

Aph,

I really don’t want to become your “moral compass” and I especially do not want to attempt to imprint my moral values into your belief system. That’s just not my bag. The mirror that you peer into each morning hangs in your home and not mine. So to you, my advice is given with the BEST chance at restoring a loving connection with your husband. Let him be your compass and not ME nor anyone else here. My guess is that he will need you more than you can imagine. Perhaps you might find the same to be true in a few short weeks.

To MEDC, BK and Mrs. W, I appreciate and respect your views even when I don’t necessarily agree with them. Living through infidelity is a humbling experience. I have long ago adopted philosophy of “take no offence, offer no defense” that has served me well. Suffice to say that within your dissenting opinions I have been paid the highest complement possible.

Mr. G

tsk, tsk, Aphaeresis. I don't care if you convert to anything. I do care that if you want to make Secular Humanism your "lord," that you at least live by the tenets of Secular Humanism. You are not as of yet and it remains to be seen if you will. That you feel good in getting angry and trying to put words in my mouth is just another way for you to deflect doing what you claim to believe in.

You came here seeking advice on how to save your marriage from your actions that killed it. And about all you've been doing since then is finding things to disagree with and openly "fighting" with others and making excuses.

There have been occasional glimmers that maybe you are beginning to take full responsibility for your actions, but they quickly get buried under your need to defend yourself.

Time WILL tell, but the clock is ticking.

You are welcome for the backup MEDC, and thank you very much for the compliment...I was so glad to see that you were "on the case" after I read Mr. G's fog babble...


I totally agree with you here MEDC...My mouth is left agape when I read his stuff on this thread...Interesting that he won't even give his "status" around here-BS/fWS...That is very telling, IMO...AND NO MR. G, IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE THE "BIGGER" PERSON WHO IS "ABOVE IT ALL" and I know that is what you think...It makes you look like a foggy, selfish, moral coward that cares for NO ONE but SELF...



That is the very same thing that I said to Mr. W about this before Aph even posted...I KNEW IT, and I'll bet that you did too...What Aph doesn't realize is though that may seem the easy road right now, it won't be in the long run, not where it counts anyway...and she will be STUCK and remain in a WS mindset until she does the RIGHT thing...



Pretty hard to defend the indefensible Mr. G, which is why you don't bother...

Personally, I believe Aph would be a FOOL to listen to what you are advising her to do here...ESPECIALLY since you won't even reveal whether you are a BS or fWS...I believe it is important to know the vantage point of someone before I take their advice...I wouldn't just go up to someone in the street and ask for the medical opinion if I didn't KNOW that they were a doctor...Aph should disregard your advice, IT WILL NOT SERVE anyone involved well, INCLUDING her own marriage...Who in the world would not want a spouse with morals and integrity afterall?

Mrs. W

not to beat a dead horse here... But I wouldn't be surprised if Mr G is an active WS based on his logic...
and frankly, I don't know that I would trust anything out of the mouth of a person that is advocating injuring a BS.

Mr. Goodstuff's first post

Although I do agree with you MEDC and a lot can happen in 2.5 years.

Thanks for posting that Pio...Now we know...You can BET that Mr. G and his wife did NOT inform the other BSs involved in her 4 affairs (whoops scratch that, after reading more of that thread, make that EIGHTEEN affairs-YIKES)...I get it, his posts are an attempt to ease his own guilty conscience-misery loves company...Figures...

Mrs. W

I vehemently disagree. All those women (wives) deserve the truth about their husbands. And Aph owes that to them as the active particpant in her adulterous affairs with them.

Mr. Goodstuff,

I'm not sure what you consider "integrity and honest" when you advise someone to hide the truth, a truth where if not known could damage the remainder of someone's life and marriage. Omission of the truth IS A LIE.

Those wives deserve the truth so they can make decisons BASED ON THE TRUTH as opposed to the facade and lie they are unknowingly living now.

Jo

Weeeelll...

I'm looking through his posts. He did take a very particular interest in Dorry at one point.

This is an interesting thread. I have no interest in the OP or her posts. But it is interesting to watch the remainder. It is a classic study in group think. Some of you remain absolutely consistent. I have gained a renewed lack of respect for others.

Name names. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

From Mr. G's first thread. Now he is advocating doing the same thing to other BS's and having them live a lie. I am looking at his entire first thread as suspect now. I don't know how anyone that has been victimized by at least 18 affairs can advocate a BS not being told the truth. Something is fishy here.




AND THIS FROM HIS WIFE



Imagine Mr G if one of those men your wife was screwing had some integrity and let you know what happened. She could have stopped at 5, 10, 15 men!

Whether or not it will benefit their marriages or lives is none of her damn business. Just like her having sex with those MARRIED MEN was none of her business.

Look you all, it's not a matter of either/or but when. So there's no point in fighting.

The fact is, my husband needs a job before I can reveal anything to him. If I reveal to the OWs before my own husband, someone else will tell him first. That would be utterly stupid on my part. He needs to hear it from me.

When engaging in a complicated, difficult task the first thing you do is break it up into parts and deal with one thing at a time. Mr. G is right that I need to focus on my husband first. After that revelation is out of the way, then we can talk about how to contact the other wives and how to tell them. No sense in trying to give me piloting lessons before I learn how to walk.

Did you ever see the movie "Dr. Strangelove"? Remember Slim Pickens riding the nuclear bomb? That's the mental image I have here. Except Slim is the OP. I just laugh and laugh.

Do something interesting. Read this thread from start to finish but do NOT read any of the OP's posts. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Resilient,

I'm off to the garage.

Oh, and I DO so hate to agree with MEDC. Not sure how to deal with that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You and MEDC should call Steve Harley together! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

<raises hand> Can I please listen in?

so now the repeat performer WS Aph who hasn't done ONE thing (besides talk) towards recovery is now going to inform the board as to her very learned concepts on how to survive an affair. WOW... I guess we all had it wrong here....all along we should have been paying attention to a WS that has had an untold number of affair partners and who continues to display fuzzy thinking.
Aph... at this point in time... the ONLY advice you are capable of giving is how to best betray your H and screw up your marriage..... as well as other marriages too. If I need advice about sex with strangers, sex with no committment or how to deflect blame... you are the go to person. For now... you really should try and listen more and speak less.

I agree with you that it is not an either/or...I am breathing a sigh of relief if this does mean that you ARE going to expose to the OM's wives...Is that what it means?


WTF??? When did the job thing come in to play? First it was that you needed to wait til you were together, now it's til he gets a job??? I call bullchit...There will NEVER be a "good time" Aph...YOU MUST TELL HIM ANYWAY...I agree with FH here, the clock is ticking...

Mrs. W

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Pio.... how to deal with it is to just finaly realize that I have been right all along and you are just catching up to that reality! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree with Mrs W. WTF?

Aph, do we need to revisit [color:"blue"]Working on One Self - Lesson Two[/color]?

Jo

MEDC is that a bastardization of the POJA that I hear??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

yep...and if Pio would just smoke a joint, he would agree with me. Joint agreement.
Hey, anybody got the munchies?

Okay, back to our regular programing.

BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA...Okay, you're right, back to the "regular programming", but NOT before I ROTFLMAO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Okay, you're right, back to the "regular programming",

Yes, please. You guys seem to find yourselves very entertaining...

And you don't? Lighten up Francine...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Aph-

You're coming up with some great EXCUSES for not telling your husband...

Note that they're not great REASONS for not telling him, but excuses...

There will NEVER be a good time to tell him about your cheating. NEVER. There can always be some good reason why you shouldn't tell him right now..."I'm worried about what he'll do"..."He needs to get a job first"..."He's go so much stress from his new job"..."Fluffy the cat just had kittens"...

You'll be able to justify to yourself reasons to put this off forever. And none of them really mean anything. In the interim, your husband will continue to be living a LIE with you for that entire time. You can rationalize not telling him 'right now' to your heart's content. You can convince yourself that you're doing it "for him".

But that's all just rationalizing for yourself. Do you REALLY want to fix the damage you've done with all these affairs? REALLY???? Then quit justifying. Quit rationalizing. Quit postponing. You will make not one bit of headway towards fixing anything until you take that first, HUGE step. Telling your husband.

This is bigger than him looking for a job. This is bigger than ANYTHING else in your lives right now. The sooner you realize that...the sooner you REALLY take a step towards making those changes you've talked about, the sooner you REALLY stand a chance towards repairing your marriage.

Until you do...it's all talk. And that's ALL it is. You know it is...because you've not taken a single true step to STOP yourself from going right back to where you were before. Once you tell your husband...you'll not have the "option" of cheating without him knowing again. That removes that from your life as an option.

But until you do that...this is all just an interesting diversion at most.

CALL YOUR HUSBAND TODAY. TELL HIM YOU NEED TO TALK WITH HIM...ITS URGENT!! Have him get back to where ever he's staying, and then sit down and tell him the truth of all of this, tell him WHY you're admitting it, and what you're hoping to work out from here.

Anything less is just postponing it for your OWN reasons, not his.

Great post Owl! I agree with you 100%...I sincerely hope that Aph gets it...

Mrs. W

P.S. I'm cracking up over "fluffy the cat had kittens"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I responded to Aph's first thread but then stopped. Why? I think she is a troll. I even think she might be someone who use to post here frequently, but got the boot... I could be wrong. I don't think Aph wants help and I don't think she is in pain. IMHO, I think she just wants attention, and she is getting it.

I've wondered too Katie, but for some reason have held out some hope...Are you thinking IWRA et al?

Mrs. W

EXACTLY. So with that, I respectfully bow out of this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

you really are a windbag aren't you?

I gotcha and I understand, but I do think that Aph writes more intelligently than the aforementioned group...There is another here that I do suspect as the IWRA Troll-she's one that likes to get into email relationships with others and I am very wary and have declined multiple attempts at that myself...Dunno...Time will tell I suppose...I respect your decision Katie...

Mrs. W

MEDC...

Here is my take on FCF...She sits crouched in the sniper position waiting to take shots at those truly trying to help rather than actually doing any of the helping herself...Her desire is to enable and support foggy thinking because that is where she remains-helping others to justify and rationalize soothes her own conscience...As I said before on this thread, MISERY LOVES COMPANY...

Mrs. W

ETA: She also forgets that the poster matters too!

I'm tellin Uncle Steve Harley!

Pinocchio wanted to be a real boy in the worst way, but he had some lessons to learn before that would happen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Did Pinocchio smoke the ganja? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Reeeespect,
Jo

Well...it would be interesting if Aph is IWRA...

Because that whole spiel I just gave on telling her husband is pretty much the exact same thing I told IWRA on Cardsonly's thread back then.

Deja moo?

What the heck's a ganga?

Ganja = Pacalolo, Weed, Joint, Marijuana, Hooch

I hope that Aph's for real and that she's looking to change. I really do.

Oh for cry'n out loud Jo, one of the above would have sufficed. I'm old, but not that old.

PS. you wore flowers in your hair in the sixties, didn't ya, Jo? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Picalolo? Hooch?

Too funny!

You forgot grass, though.

Pacalolo - Pronunciation: PACA (like CACA) -- LOW LOW

PACA-LOWLOW

Okaaaaay. I got it, I got it.

OMG LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Always happy to help out, esp if its one of my fav Weavers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Jo!

I'm going to think of you now every time I watch Cheech & Chong's "Up in Smoke".

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well thats fine, cept I don't indulge. Nor do I sport dredlocks.

But I do like those two Jamaican jelly fish in "A Shark's Tale".

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

MEDC,

This is not the only time here I've gotten conflicting advice. In the end, I'm the one who is making the decisions. You seem to expect everyone you give advice to to automatically follow it without doing any thinking of their own. If you want people to follow your advice, you have to be more persuasive. In order to be more persuasive you have to LISTEN. The most persuasive people on these boards are not the ones who agree with me but the ones who have good listening skills.


Mrs.W,


Assuming I have enough information to find them without contacting my past OMs, yes.


They are one and the same. Don't you remember me saying we'll be together when he gets a new job?

Owl,

When I gave a slight hint, he made it absolutely clear to me that he does not want to know right now. This decision is based on what I know about my husband, someone you've never met.

Katie_Mae,

I have addressed this before. Larry has already posted saying he knows my real name and I'm definitely not a troll. And if you call everyone a troll who says things you don't like, you'll run an awful lot of people off the boards who might need help.

Actually Aph... I have made a career out of listening and your words and lacf of action point to a woman that is ***. you have your head so ************that you can't hear or see the truth.

medc,

Oh! You're a shrink! That explains it.

Aph - I THINK MEDC's a retired cop. THAT alone should be explination enough. Their God complex is about as big as a doctor's.

And their supposedly "cute" little banter has no place on your thread, IMO. What purpose does it serve, really??

My H and I didn't tell my MM's BW about the affair. In the end it didn't matter, they divorced soon after anyway. He's now married to some woman he talked into divorcing her H for him. His life is not my concern. My H is. If that pisses off people here who feel telling is the ONLY way to go, well thank God they won't be the ones judging me at the pearly gates.

Aph-

You said:

You're right, I've never met him.

So, based off his response to your "slight hint'...you've decided not to tell him???

Give me a break. I'm generally as mellow as people come on this board...but I've got to say that you are NOWHERE NEAR being a "former" anything. "Slight hints" mean bull doody, and YOU KNOW IT! Once again, this is just you RATIONALIZING AND JUSTIFYING doing what you want...not what's right for anyone else.

Congratulations...I think you've made the top of the list of "most self centered posters" that I've ever seen. You've got all the answers...all the plans. I have absolutely no idea why you post here...you're not seeking help, you're not seeking advice. I really am beginning to suspect that you're a troll who is only here for the emotional drama she can generate. Why else would you come to a 'marriage building' site, admit to multiple affairs, and then continue to blow off any advice or recommendations being given to help you recover your marriage?

If you're not a troll, then I'd heartily suggest that you take some time to give some SERIOUS thought to what you really want from this site and the people posting advice to you.

I'll no longer post to your thread. Either you ARE a troll, and as such a complete waste of time and energy. Or, you're a completely non-repentent wayward wife here to justify her actions, and no intent to truly take ownership of her actions or the recovery her husband and marriage so desperately need...making posting to you a complete waste of time and energy for as long as you maintain your current mindset.

Good luck.

FCF... do you realize that the people on this board laugh at you daily. YOu are a big wind bag.

Okay Aph, I'm going to challenge this. Since you state Larry knows your "real name", using that as your proof you're not a troll. I'd like to know how he knows your "real name".

Is it from you posting on another board and its a "real name" you gave him virtually which you claim is yours but there's no way to verify? Or, do you two actually know each other in REAL LIFE?

Jo

MTA: I'm asking this question only because we have several seasoned posters who are spending their very valuable time supporting you where if you are indeed a fraud their time could be better spent helping people who really need it.

There is a difference in waywards who have a one time affair which is completely out of character and something they fell into because of poor boundaries, like Mrs. W, KYjelly and the other one time affairees.

The other kind is the kind who have character issues, like Aph. I believe for this type of person to completely change their colors, their entire belief and value system to become a person of integrity and who truly gives a rats [censored] about others, is a whole lot of pain.

"the pain of change must be less then the pain of staying the same"

It usually takes great loss to get to this bottom.

It is why the saying "God takes one to the desert and puts him on his knees so that he may finally hear".

Also why I posted about Pinocchio and what it took for him to become a "real" little boy. It took a lot of lessons and pain.

This is why I don't normally bother talking to active liars, it is too hard to tell which kind they are. I gave Aph the benefit of the doubt, but the doubt was big nontheless.

She'll change when someone hurts her the way she has hurt others. And even then, maybe not.

I thought she was a unique and rare case of someone really wanting to become a good person, without having to be brought to their knees by the weight of what they have done first.

And still, time will tell.

If his [OM] life is not your concern, then I'm perplexed as to why you still know so much about it?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

familycomesfirst,

LOL! Yeah cops are even worse than shrinks at listening. They automatically assume everyone's lying to them.

Owl,


No, I decided timing is everything. Of course, you'd know this if you were actually listening because I've only said it half a dozen times. I do plan to tell him when we can be together, which will be after he gets a new job. He can't handle more than one problem at a time. His trouble finding a job as soon as he'd like is very ego-deflating. He doesn't need more problems on top of that to deal with, and he told me that. Besides which, telling him long distance is so obviously a bad idea I am amazed that anyone would suggest it.


Would it have been better if I hadn't admitted to multiple affairs and instead lied and said it was only one?

Actually, there are posters who agree with my decision. I can't help it if you all disagree on what advice to give me. I also have friends who have talked to their own counselors and have come back and said don't tell him till he gets the job. Advice is not something you should blindly follow, especially when you are getting contradictory advice from different sources.

That's your prerogative. But I think the real problem is that you are getting your ego in a bunch. You are upset that I am following someone else's advice instead of yours.

Resilient,

When he decided to leave the other board, he gave me his email address. My email program happens to include my real, full name in the headers. I have a bit of an online presence, so if he really wanted to he could google me and find out all sorts of things, including one of my husband's email addresses, I'm sure.

weaver,

My character outside the realm of sexual decisions is actually very good. I even run a small, charitable organization. Within the realm, I'm too impulsive, compulsive and until recently failed to see the big picture. The big picture is that not only was I being selfish, but self-defeating as well. I didn't believe that secret sex with others would affect non-sexual aspects of my marriage.

I really miss what I used to have with my husband. And even though the sex was good, it still didn't get me what I originally wanted which was a good sex life WITH MY HUSBAND. So now I've not only failed to solve the original problem but I created additional ones as well. I don't have to wait until someone hurts me to change because I've already hurt myself.

Than good for you Aph, you are one of the lucky ones. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was once a very, very self-centered person in a lot of ways and not so much in others, but after I realized that I had caused great pain to someone, it dang near killed me. It still bothers me and this was a little girl I had in my class in elementary school. I was mean to her and I swear it still eats me up.

All attacks on another are attacks on ourself. We live with the pain we caused others.

There will come a day that you feel so bad about what you have done to those OM's wives, as well as to your BH, that it will eat you alive. And this is where self-forgiveness and retribution comes into play.

When you truly get it, when you truly have changed, you will never question what you need to do again. You won't have any choice.

This is why most on here are so adament that one cannot have changed if they are not fully disclosing to those they have hurt.

Again, let us not forget that the poster matters too...sigh...There were "jokes" made on my original "thread of fog" here...that's the cost of admission 'round these parts sometimes...*shrug*


And their divorce is no concern of yours of course FCF...No fault belongs to you, eh? GOOD GRIEF!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Wow, and to think that exposure to OMW could not only have saved his marriage, but another one too...Still no responsiblity of yours though I guess...UN'FREAKIN'BELIEVABLE...


And I agree with Resilient here...How come you know so much about the life of a man that is of no concern to you? No contact includes not digging for life details of OM yanno... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Mrs. W

I'm interested to understand the rationale that throwing insults at people is a useful, generous way to help them to learn.

I have rarely come across any situation where labelling another person and calling them names has produced any result except anger and entrenchment.

Perhaps those who use this technique could tell me how successful it has been in their own lives. And whether, at present, they are still in a functional marriage?

TA

Mrs. W,


There's no way of knowing that for sure. He could have chosen to continue his path in spite of the exposure. Ultimately, he's responsible for his own choices whether someone chooses to expose his lies or not. I chose to quit without either exposure or the threat of being exposed, so obviously exposure by others is not necessary for someone to quit. It may make it easier, yeah, but it's not necessary. The fact that he has not changed is all on him, not fcf.

TA,


LOL! Isn't that the truth! I know I am much more likely to respond to rational arguments, especially when coming from someone I already respect.

ME ME ME

I *thought* this was supposed to be about your betrayed husband, the victim of your adulterous serial cheating.

No matter how we try, you continue to place the focus back on YOU.

And, I'm always astounded how you have ALL the answers Aph. Must be nice to know everything.

Now THIS is rich.

A serial adulteror defending statements from a questionable F-WS.

If that's what you'd like to believe MrsW, knock yourself out. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. I am 6 years into recovery and have had two additions to my family since Dday. We recently had our 11th wedding anniversary. That is what matters to me, my family. I might have lost my way back then, but that is water under the bridge for me. xMM's life is his life.

Oh, I will say that I know this info because he sent me an email apologizing for almost causing my M to end. He said looking back it was a selfish act and feels bad. He had a bad accident and was almost killed and he felt like it was karma. He then updated me on his new marriage. I never responded, but it was hard not to at least peak at what he had to say. I guess he felt it was okay to break up her M because he claims he rescued her from an abusive M and they had no kids. I wouldn't doubt it if he eventually cheats on her, but that is their business.

Because I didn't do everything to the letter that MB promotes I'm a "questionable" FWS? ****EDIT****

Written by FcF regarding her OM:


and then ...


Heck of a guy. Loads of integrity. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And BTW: Did you tell your husband he emailed you and you read it?

As a matter of fact, I am an equestrian! Good guess.

Aph - question for you. Did your parents have a good R? Mine did not. I was part of the problem for a long time because I wouldn't let him in. I haven't had good male role models in my life, I usually expect those close to me to let me down. It took the A and seeing how my H stuck by me for me to finally wake up and realize I had a good man and that if I continued down the path I was on, I would seriously F myself up. Try not to focus on your H's negatives. He might be sensing something "off" about you and that is making him testy. I know my H and I fought the most during my A, he could sense something wasn't right.

I also understand about the timing issue. Right after I told my H about the A he was laid off from his job of 9 years. He became very depressed and he would sleep all day. It was hard, he had no energy to go look for another job. A friend of his helped him land a really good job, thank God! That helped his confidence tremendously. I also plan A'd him, even though that's a BS thing, it's good for the marriage. I also confessed to his parents about what I had done, that also made him feel better.

I didn't say I agreed with his reasoning for breaking up their M, did I? I don't think he's a great guy at all.

And no I didn't tell him, he flips out at the mention of MM. Go ahead and bash me for that, I really don't care.

For a group of people who find Aph and I SOOOO questionable, you sure like posting to us!! I know you LOVE having the opportunity to pick apart our every action.

I was going to not respond to you, because I do care how others feel and don't feel like getting into a spitting contest, but your sig line pretty much pegs you as someone with a chip on their shoulder, just so you know. That is how I viewed it anyway.

I do love big words (little words, medium size words). I just ordered a CD program that will help me increase my vocabulary and help me to be able to converse with people better educated than I.

A lot of people on here are writers (doctors and cops too I would guess... BTW you offended two groups of people with that little DJ). Words are very important to writers, I would imagine.

You may benefit by learning about DJ's yourself, as well as doing something about that little chip you got on your shoulder.

And there it is folks...FCF is no FWW at all, plain ole garden variety WS...Wayward is as wayward does...

Great one to take "lessons" from Aph...Your choice, of course...

Mrs. W

FCF...You do realize how very contradictory the two above statements from you are, right? A recovered marriage includes RADICAL HONESTY and your marriage does NOT, in fact, have that-without that you don't have INTIMACY...You BETRAYED your husband all over again by reading that email from the OM and you continue to betray him by keeping him in the dark about that fact...I feel immensely sorry for your BH...Bless his heart...

Mrs. W

Like I said, those who want to pick me apart because I don't follow MB guidelines to the T are wasting their time. It is not a one size fits all mold, despite your protests to the contrary. My H wanted to KILL the OM. I did what I felt was best in MY situation, your opinion on it really amounts to a hill of beans in my mind.

My H does not need your sympathy, thank you.

*********EDIT********************

Did you at least share this with your H? Or did you hide it? (=perpe2ate the secrecy)


He should have shared this with his W, perhaps as a NC letter after d-day. Not now.


Yes, that was me, in my karma, running over his dogma.


And you shared this info with your H? Or kept it your little intimate secret?


But if you could have put a damper on his philandering by simply being truthful, why wouldn't you? Exposure isn't a revenge tactic, it's simply the right thing 2 do.

-ol' 2long

That's the real issue here isn't it? You guys feel I don't grovel enough and ***EDIT***so I'm not repentive enough in your eyes. I usually do nothing but post to BS's here, in a supportive manner. I decided to post to Aph's thread because I saw her getting treated the way a lot of WS's who come here do. She's being called a troll, a*****EDIT****, told she has no integrity or morals, ad nausea.

I know tough love can be helpful... but some of this makes me wonder. The "tag team lets get the evil WS's beat down" mentality here is disturbing, IMO.

Wow. That may well be the meanest thing I've ever seen on this web site. Wow.

FcF,

Don't you think keeping secrets from your spouse is wrong?

Don't you think it will eventually deteriorate your marriage?

Don't you think a marriage built on complete openness and honesty is the best plan for a marriage that was almost destroyed by lies?

I can't imagine you didn't promise your husband that you would tell him if there was contact from the OM.

I would be willing to bet that at least 90% of the BHs on here felt like they wanted to harm the other men in their sitch. So you, your husband and your situation really are not that different despite your protests you are.

Jo

This wonderful truth from Weaver bears repeating.

This has NOTHING to do with "picking YOU apart" and EVERYTHING to do with defending MB principles and your poor BH from his ACTIVE WW-I'd say whatever I had to to try and wake you up and spare him another moment's pain...Dr. Harley says that this is a very NARROW path, so yes, that DOES mean that it IS a "one size fits all mold"...NC means NC and BETRAYAL is BETRAYAL...I realize that no one's opinion matters to you, an ACTIVE WS, EXCEPT your own...Certainly not your BH's and that is what is so sick, twisted wrong and sad...


Sadly, he does need it and he does have it...


The better question is why are YOU here? If you don't believe in or follow MB principles, what is YOUR purpose here?

And yes, my dad did just die yesterday...I am devastated...I'm dealing with my grief the best way that I suppose anyone can, crying off and on, praying and trying to keep busy in between until it is time for me to leave for Atlanta...That was a very uncalled for thing for you to point out, but I do realize that the pain of others means nothing to active WSs-I didn't even have to make that point, you proved it quite nicely on your own...Wow, you are really a piece of work...God Bless your poor BH and children...

Mrs. W

FCF:

When my dad passed away 2 years ago, I posted a thread here almost immediately upon learning the news. My kids and my W had just gone out of town that morning, so I had the big house all 2 myself.

Some of my MB friends quoted poems about pilots that my sisters and I used at the memorial service. My MB friends pulled me through a difficult time that day.


Mrs W, I'm so sorry. My thoughts are with you. Please take care.

-ol' 2long

Thank you very much 2long...I sincerely appreciate it...

Mrs. W

MB BASIC CONCEPT > Policy of Radical Honesty.

MB BASIC CONCEPT > Policy of Joint Agreement.

Dr Harley's first rule following an affair > Have nothing to do with the former lover for any reason for the rest of your life.

If ALL the rules are followed, recovery is possible, perhaps even likely.

If some of the rules are followed, recovery is possible, but less likely.

The likelihood of a recurrence of an affair is directly related to the steps taken by the (F)WS to prevent it from occurring. This is NOT the same thing as promising to never do it again but involves a change in the way the (F)WS considers interactions with those of the opposite sex to ensure that they are not placing themselves into a dangerous (to the marriage) mind set as well as changing the way they interact with their spouse.

Secrets beget secrecy and isolation; honesty begets intimacy and TRUST.

The danger to the marriage does not come from lack of communication between spouses but from lack of boundaries of the (potential)WS. Failure to protect our own personal boundaries with others leaves our vulnerabilities exposed and makes us more susceptible to submitting to temptation when it comes, which it does whether we think it will or not.

Since we cannot change our vulnerabilities, we must change the way we guard them and the way we allow them to be exposed. Only our spouse has the right to see these things, all others should be excluded.

To fail to guard our own weaknesses and remain vulnerable while hiding things about our daily lives from our spouse turns the whole thing on its head. We become more vulnerable to an affair and less intimate with our spouse when it should be the other way around.

This is the way a WS earns the stripes that elevates them to the status of FWS.

JMO.

Mark

PS When we suffer personal loss such as the death of a loved one most of us tend to gather together with our friends and family for comfort. For many of us that includes our friends here on MB...Praying for your family MrsW.

Mark:

That was an excellent post. All the main points very well put.

-ol' 2long

I agree with 2long, that was an excellent post Mark...




Yes, this is true for me...Mr. W and our DD7 are here with me of course...My closest friends and other family are in Atlanta, however...MB is important to me-my dad knew and appreciated that...

Thank you so much Mark...

Mrs. W

Jo,

That statement was specifically in response to someone saying that someone else would have to hurt me first in order for me to change. I was talking about me because that was the context - the idea of someone hurting me before I would change.

If you want to know about my husband, then ask about my husband.

I never said I had all the answers but I certainly don't have to blindly follow what everyone tells me, especially when you all don't even agree. I have a mind of my own and if you have a problem with that, it's your problem not mine.

fcf,

That's a complicated question. My dad was physically abusive to her and to my siblings and I. Later in life when I was 19, he got help and changed. I still think they yell too much, but they are still together and affectionate toward each other.

BTW, I have a thick skin. Nothing said here can ever hurt me unless I accept it as true for myself.

About your husband...maybe you could talk to him about the fact that you don't feel safe using radical honesty with him about everything. Ask him for help in creating a safer environment so that you CAN use RH without you fearing that he will resort to something stupid and violent. If you explain that you want to be honest but you're afraid of his reaction, then maybe you can get him to a point where you can tell him everything.

Mrs. Wondering,

My condolescences.

Mrs. Wondering and others,

My sincere condolences for the of your father, I shall say a prayer for him this evening.

I replied to your post but my response also includes MEDC and a few others. I think it might be especially beneficial to Aph but in case it’s not a new thread might be appropriate.

I might suggest that if it is your intention to attack my wife, our recovery and me then by all means start a new thread and have at it. Set my wife and me straight. Tell us the better way to recover our marriage. Teach me the things that our 8 weeks with the Harley’s couldn’t accomplish. Tell me where they went wrong and where you are right. Really, don’t stop now, you got me against the ropes; it’s time to “finish me off.”

Before we start you should have your basic facts correct. My wife had an affair that lasted about 18 months when she was 38-39 years old that I never knew about. About 3-4 years latter she began a series of Internet affairs over a seven-year period with eight different partners totaling about 18 separate encounters (I actually don’t even recall the specific arithmetic anymore). She never developed any love interest with any of these men. She disclosed to me before I found out, i.e. she took the first step to change and thus changed our life. No way to sugar coat it, there never is. That was our PAST.

Now perhaps you can see why I might have just a smidgen of advice to offer Aphaeresis. When she discloses to her husband, he will be at the exact same position that I was in nearly three years ago.

My wife and I have been together since 1971 and our marriage is as good as it has ever been. We are now armed with the things we learned through consulting with the Harleys and the advice and guidance that we received in these forums, particularly from “Just Learning” (Aph he’s really got a great heart plus he’s smart as a whip). In those early days I learned much reading the posts of BobPure, 2ofAKind, TooMuchCoffeeMan, Stanley and Marta, CV55, Stillwed, 10 Swords, Anyname, aussieswife, John39, Lilybelle and a host of others; kind hearts with a helping hand many who have not been around here for some time. I suppose that we were pretty lucky couple, “blessed” is the appropriate word. There were many occasions where my views might have parted company from some of those earlier posters but to my recollection such disagreements were mostly handled with grace and a deep respect of our common origins that brought us together in the first place.

You have been given link to my first post by piojitos. Feel free to read our history and learn firsthand what my wife’s recovery and mine really is. With that background you can then make an example of us by pointing out how we may be devoid of integrity and honesty and thus help to bolster your

NOWHERE in any of our consultations with the Harleys were we EVER advised to make contact with my wife’s affair partners or their spouses for ANY purpose whatsoever. My wife was however forewarned that ANY contact with her OM would represent a severe setback in our recovery and a further betrayal. In fact, the Harleys knowing that affairs are closely related to addictions counseled me to remain “guarded” in case she faltered. Nowhere in any of my history on these pages will you find where anyone has made such a recommendation. I wonder why?

So now there should be no question as to my origin as a betrayed spouse but I haven’t really thought of myself as such for a long, long time. By being incorrectly identified as a wayward spouse, correct that, “actively” wayward spouse I had been paid the highest compliment possible. I am no longer a betrayed spouse and my wife is no longer wayward spouse or formally wayward spouse, we are just “husband and wife”. Your misdiagnosis of me helped me to realize that, thank you.

Mr. G

Here are a few other personal attacks directed to my wife or me that I would be happy to reply in greater detail but I really think that attack speaks volumes of the attacker’s character more than I ever could so I've keep my responses brief.



And what did you learn from it?



In the future I check with you so that I can know what it is that I am thinking. I think there is a MB name for this type or argument. Do you know what it is?



What a nice thing to say, no further comment.



I think this reply may be directed to wayward spouses, sadly I am not one. Again, thank you for thinking that I was a WS.



Is there a possibility that once Aph discloses to her husband then they can decide together (POJA) if they want further involvement with OM and their wives? Does he get a vote on this? Do his feelings enter into this decision? Be prepared that HE may be the one who does not want his wife involved any further.



Again, I am not now nor have I ever been a wayward spouse. The rumors of my waywardness are greatly exaggerated. Yes, glad you’re “on the case” it makes it so much easier to slam me without repercussion.



I guess I’m here now. “Take No Offence,” means to never attack anyone here as they will or have been stripped naked by infidelity. There is seldom need to attack the beliefs of the folks here even if I think they may be misguided as I think that most everyone who stays here eventually discovers what is best for them and their marriage. “Offer No Defense”, means that there are folks who come here looking for help but are uneducated in the ways of life and love. They may fight to defend a host of rationalizations. Only when they drop their defense they are able to listen to the sense that called Marriage Builders.



Yes, that is your personal opinion but opposite the opinion of Dr. Harley. I wonder if you really know what it is that I am advising. Is our difference so huge that I am deserving of the insults I have received?



Does that mean that people that believe what I believe cheat on their spouses? Are you implying that I cheat on my wife? That of course, would be wrong but I can understand that in your effort to discredit any kind of descending opinion you might want to place that label on me. If that is true how very cruel. I assume that when you state that I am an advocate of hurting betrayed spouses that you know something beyond the simple advice that I have given in this one thread.



That is a most horrible thing to say to me. What did I say or do to you to deserve such an attack. My wife disclosed to me of her own conscience, it was a commendable and brave thing to do. She took an action here that few are able to take. She recognized her failings and did something to change it. Under Harley’s supervision we destroyed every morsel that could possibly link her back to the Internet. It was a liberating experience and a gift of love that I will never forget. She recommitted to our marriage and then NEVER looked back. Had she latter suggested that she go back and make a contact, to set the world right, I would have been destroyed by the suggestion. Take a look around and let me know just how strong a betrayed spouse is on their D-day, there are plenty of examples.




Your logic is simple, direct and I find little to disagree with. However, my advice to Aph was that her husband is paramount to all else and her first order of business was to disclose her affairs. For her to make contact with her former lovers is a recipe for disaster. Most of us know what happens when a wayward spouse makes contact. It is seldom good. I advised her that everything would change in her life once she made her disclosure. If contact is to be made it should not come in advance of disclosure and even then it may have consequences. If that is what they both want for their recovery then it’s a POJA slam dunk.



Don’t hold back MEDC, just say what’s on your mind. What’s “fishy”?



You must feel it necessary to bring up the elements of my past to kind of help remind me that my wife was once lost to me. Such a kind and gracious thing to do. Is there something about my recovery that rubs you the wrong way? Is there something I did to you personally? If you think that I harbor any remorse that one of these men did not come forward then you are sadly mistaken. If you think that I blame THEM in any way, then you are again mistaken. You sound foolish to me, as it was my WIFE who let me down and NO one else. She was the responsible party. I wanted nothing from them. All I wanted was my life back and low and behold she brought it back. To me it seems that you have no compassion in a place where compassion is everything or perhaps your compassion is only available to the poor souls who agree with your ideals.

You and several others have gone out of your way to cast stones at me but it really matters little as my wife and I are far down the recovery road. We are not so far that your words of hate do not affect me but we are certainly far enough that we can easily recover.

How I so dearly wish that the Harleys would take note of this thread. Perhaps someone can ask them why they felt it necessary to omit your value system from my recovery.

Mr. G

Is there something about this statement that is confusing to anyone here?

Mr. G

Mr. G, you do understand that that comment refers to the affairee contacting the other affairee, right? Harley very much believes that the betrayed spouse of the OP should be told about the affair. He recommends that the BS contact the other BS, rather than the WS calling and chancing contact with the OP.

My opinion is that any wayward who has not ensured that the other betrayed spouse knows is not sincerely recovered because he/she has not recovered her moral compass. The other BS is also the victim of BOTH affairees, after all, and recovery involves making amends to one's victims. The desire to make amends to one's victims is the hallmark of true recovery.

Dr.Harley outlines his principle of informing the victim of the affair here:


entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Specifically, Dr.Harley has addressed the issue of HOW to inform the spouse of the OP on the radio and in other private areas of this board. Exposing to the OPS is a matter of private morality and he does not presume to take on that role. His advice only reaches as far as what is best for the marriage at hand AFTER the affair has ended. However, he does believe it is the moral thing to do and has given instruction on how to do it:


Should I reveal to OP Spouse from a MB point of View about the nature of the A and it's extent?

The primary reason to reveal the affair to lover's spouse (OPS) is to gain support in breaking up the affair. But when the affair is already over, that reason is lost. A secondary reason is for altruistic reasons -- the OPS should know that the affair took place (you would want to know if the tables were turned). But for the practical reason of helping your marriage, I regard it as optional, and should be done only if you both enthusiastically agree to it.

<snip unrelated>

And last:
Dr Harley, from a morality point of view, it is the right thing to do. I understand this. And the overwhelming reason to do so. But, what does it accomplish 18 months later? 36 Months Later? 5 years?

It's moral in the sense that you are helping your spouse's lover come to grips with his problem. Hopefully, they will go through the same process you followed, and their marriage will not only be successful, but they will have prevented future affairs. Remember, though; your wife is to have absolutely no contact with her former lover. You should make the call just in case he answers. When his wife is on the line, you can turn the phone over to your wife. It may be a good idea for you to both be on the phone at the same time talking to the OPS.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Too true, Mr.G, even when out of context.

ML said:
In order for my husband to enthusiastically agree, he first has to know. Therefore I was right in saying I should tell my husband first before telling the wives. And because I can't predict what he will or won't enthusiastically agree to, there's not even any point in discussing it (exposure to wives) right now.

This post was originally about what I need to do to work on myself. I think it would help if my plan followed some sort of linear, chronological order.

On another thread, Orchid suggested I Plan A myself. The trouble is, he's so depressed right now nothing I do seems to reach him. If I try too hard, he just gets annoyed. I guess it's similar to a WS in withdrawal. I wish I could cheer him up, but nothing seems to work.

Aph - you most certainly should tell your husband first. I understand your reasons for wanting to be together before you do that.

Well of course you should tell him first. He is the first one in line for the truth.

Not at all confusing to me, Mr. G. I happen to agree with it. Informing the OM's spouses should be the decision of the Betrayed Spouse, not the Wayward Spouse.

But what is interesting is that there are two things that are equally "not confusing," that are part of this current drama (and actually part of all infidelity where a Married person is the OP). First the unsuspecting BS of the OP has a right to know that which has been kept secret from him/her, first so that he/she can decide to remain married or not, and second to potentially avoid the OP "moving on to" another marriage and destroying another marriage. Tougher to play the "adultery game" when your spouse is "looking over your shoulder" without the "blind trust glasses" on anymore.

The second "not confusing" thing is that Aphaeresis is not, despite claims to the contrary, surrendering herself to the tenets of her chosen faith. She continues to "pick and choose" which tenets apply to her and which she will rationalize away.

For me, I am simply waiting to see what happens when her husband returns. IF she does actually confess to him, HE will be the one who will really need some help. All attempts to try to reach Aphaeresis with some understanding of what she is going to be unleashing on her husband have been met with resistance or excuses.

She wants to wait until he has a job and then will tell him. What she doesn't understand is that it is very likely that his job won't last long after he is flattened emotionally by the nuclear holocaust she will be unleashing on him. MANY Betrayed Spouses, if not all, found it EXTREMELY difficult to "function" well at work, or at best could function in "short bursts." But the emotional onslaught is overwhelming and almost EVERYTHING triggers huge emotional swings and resultant feelings of things like "why should I be concerned about working, there's nothing left to work FOR." Intense anger rages and alternates with intense bouts of crying, even tougher for a man who may have been told that "real men don't cry."

Experience has shown that very few, if any, Wayward Spouses truly understand the depth of the pain they unleash through adultery. Some who have been successful in recovering their marriages DO come to understand a good part of it, but only after a long time in recovery. That's partly why a common "lament" of many recovering Wayward Spouses is "why can't you just get over it already?!" and "I don't want to talk about it anymore." What they continue to not understand is that Recovery is in the hands of the Betrayed Spouse. It is the BS who decides "how much information is enough and how many details they need" and how many times they need to go back over already inquired about areas. It's all part of THEIR healing process. But some WS's want to be in control of recovery in much the same way they were in control of who they had an affair with and what they did or didn't do in that affair.

As regards the comments that have been directed to you by some others, while distasteful, your recovery has worked for you and your wife and THAT is the purpose of MB, not that you MUST do everything according to the "letter" of MB or you will fail in recovery. MB increases the chance that a marriage can recover when both spouses are working "from the same playbook," so to speak.

But you also have to be careful in extending the "what worked for us applies to you" too concept. It may, but there are no guarantees and if it deviates from standard MB concepts, there has to be a rational reason for it that goes beyond just an "automatic" rejection. MB has proven "rules" that work in many, but not all, cases. The same holds true with many other things. I happen to believe, because I am a Christian, that God is an essential partner in a Christian marriage. For people like Aphaeresis who is an adamant atheist, the "things of God" are mere foolishness.

Therefore, since she has such a strong bias against anything "religious," and especially against Christianity, she has chosen to attack me and any attempts that I have made to "hold her accountable to her chosen faith." She resorts to deflecting self-refection and potential real change into an attack with accusations that I am trying to "convert her" and win "brownie points" with God so that she doesn't have to "face herself."

She has no clue yet, other than what seems to be growing realization that adultery is wrong in ALL cases and is NOT a way to address "marital problems and difficulties." So the attacks you've been getting seem to directed at not "encouraging" Aphaeresis that her own cloudy judgment is "sufficient." Attacking you personally is not, imho, the "best way" to try to get that idea across. I suspect that a strong aversion to "enabling" is what is motivating many of those posts, whether you agree with it or not, because they may be perceiving your comments to Aphaeresis as a form of "enabling."

What has resulted from this is that Aphaeresis is pretty much back to where she was when this thread began. She will do whatever she thinks is "okay with her" and will reject any idea that she doesn't like.

So the answer to her question; "What does working on myself mean?" is that it was never a true request to begin with. She is only going to do what she feels like doing and will NOT consider looking at core issues that might actually be beneficial to change.

She SAYS that she needs, for example, to fully embrace the tenets of Secular Humanism, but she continues to proceed to violate several of them in her postings and in her excuses.

As I said earlier on, the clock is ticking and if she does confess to her husband, then we'll see if they can be helped. Until then, she has made her "do it my way" stance clear enough and it's pointless to offer advice where advice is not wanted.

Yes you were Aph...My apologies for suggesting otherwise to you...I had not fully thought that through-a huge mistake on my part...I have never been a BS, and I did not consider the full implications on your BH of what I advised, and for that I am deeply sorry...

Thinking it through I can certainly see where he should be the FIRST one told, to do otherwise would make him feel even more "the last to know" type feelings...What I should have advised, if at all, is that perhaps you could have the letters to the OMW's typed up and ready to go for him to send...This would be in an effort to show him your level of seriousness and true commitment to change...But I do now realize that a newly betrayed spouse concentrates on their own pain first, as it should be...They are the wounded lying on the floor bleeding and they must be tended to first...

Mrs. W

FH - I believe other BS should be told period. Ideally that would be the BS who would do that but if they refuse, then the WS should do it. For all the reasons you outlined.

It only matters that the BS is told and this can be done by the WS without risking NC.

Orchid: U R correct. I read further and saw Mrs. W. and other agreed. Now this is progress. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Plan A changes by you and for you. The benefit to the others is a side benefit. So continue with plan A. Depressed or not, that is his issue. You continue to move forward. Both must work for the M but at your own pace, fighting your own issues and working towards a common goal. In time you w/b a team. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Small steps. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

ForeverHers,


And you are basing that on what? My past behavior that I've already given up?


You are way out in left field with that one. I have no idea where you got that.


Oh, so it's hopeless is it? I thought you agreed that I *should* tell him. Now you're coming up with reasons why I shouldn't. Make up your mind! I'm well aware of the symptoms of depression because I've had them before and my husband seems to have them now because of the job situation. I get that this will depress him. I'd have to be a moron not to.


And how many of them actually talked to BS's or read boards like this one BEFORE the big reveal? I'm really getting tired of being treated like an idiot. I am well aware that it will take him about two years to recover. I've said this more than once. And I already know not to say things like "can't you just get over it already" because I've been reading and I'm not a complete moron. Your entire post is one giant insult to my intelligence and I'm not sure I feel like reading your posts anymore.


And you've already judged me as being this person. Well I'm not trying to "control" anything. I'm trying to understand how to HELP him. Big difference.


No, you have mischaracterized and attacked my PHILOSOPHY (NOT faith). You don't even understand it, so how can you hold me accountable to it? No, what you were trying to do was convert me to Christianity, but you don't want to admit it now that you see it won't work.


As opposed to what? Doing everything you tell me? Let me tell you something, I have read two of Dr. Harley's books and most of the articles on the site. I'm just as capable of learning from books as anyone else. In fact, I'm thinking maybe I should just stick to the books and let you bicker amongst yourselves, since you seem to do that so well.


Actually, I have a thread that discusses core issues or possible core issues but you chose to ignore it.


There is a difference between giving advice and giving orders. I will take advice if it's backed up by good, sensible arguments. I will not take orders no matter how many insults you back them up with.


Love? That's rather ironic. I don't see any of that in your posts.

I read about Plan A. I'm still not sure what I can be doing right now, as opposed to later. Maybe I'll list what I've done so far and see what's missing, in no particular order:

Wrote a disclosure letter for later, plus a couple of more letters detailing who and when, etc. one vague, one detailed.

Said goodbye to last OM, made myself unavailable to others.

Changed online habits to avoid trouble spots.

Figured out the whys and the contributing factors (I think.)

Reducing LBs, increasing compliments. Not that it does much good right now, but I suppose it's good practice.

Also came up with a few ideas for SF with husband to get around incompatibility problems, but of course that's for much, much later.

---

Mrs. W, no problem.

Melody,

Thank you for your post. I am not sure that I disagree with ANY of it. It has in fact, saved my marriage. What I am wondering is that much of what you quoted addresses how a wayward spouse discloses to their OWN spouse, indeed a very difficult road. The part of quote where Dr. Harley specifically addresses disclosure to unsuspecting spouse outside of the marriage is as you have noted.



Perfectly said by Dr. Harley himself. Hopefully, Aph gets it and we need go no further.

Just so you know, I greatly respect your views and contributions to this board. I can appreciate that it is sometimes very difficult for us provide someone advice or to make a suggestion without imparting our own sense of morality. In general, our belief systems are all very similar in that most of us have a strong desire to “do the right thing”, i.e. we want to help. From my own perspective I go to great pains to remove my personal religious or philosophical bents from the suggestions that I might make to a wayward or betrayed spouse and as a result I doubt that anyone here knows to what faith I subscribe or my philosophical leanings.

To me, it is “very” OK for anyone here to reject my sense of morality even though I often time know that it is not OK for them to treat me in kind. So I try to keep my morality private.

Mr. G

Wow, there are some great posts happening on here.

Mr. G, I always appreciate the gentle kindness and intelligence of your posts, just wanted you to know that.

Mark, Awesome post

I read a quote somewhere that went something like this:

"The problem with arguments is that they always interupt a good discussion"

Is that the truth or what?

Aph -

I don't have anything to add to your list (I know the others will be able to help you there though), but am very glad to see them written down. Written goals are not used often enough around here in my opinion and are of great help.

This one however jumped out at me -



It's not only good practice, it takes a lot of practice and is key to a loving relationship, so good you are starting now. DJ's were and still are hard for me sometimes, as for most people.

Mr G, thanks for your response. I very much enjoy your posts, btw. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am aware that the first quote addresses how a WS approaches his own spouse, however, that quote imparts Harleys PRINCIPLE about exposure to the betrayed spouse. He never specifies that this advice "only applies to the WS within the framework of that marriage." It imparts his principle of exposure to all betrayed spouses. In the latter quote, he specifically addresses exposure to the other BS. Exposure is a matter of morality, which can't be overlooked.

Just a side note, Dr. Harley told me that he is working with legislators in Minnesota on developing legislation against adultery, to make it harder to get away with it.


I find this incomprehensible, because my views COME FROM my moral foundation. Without morals, our views are pretty vacuous and without substance, IMO. So, I go out of my way to make sure my morality is always the guiding force. Most especially on a board where that addresses a moral issue: adultery. I could no more leave my morals at home than I could leave my personality. But I understand your choice to do so and that is ok with me.

Mr G


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

All blessings, "Eddie" Goodstuff, fellow affair warrior.

Aphaeresis - I'd tell you to go back and read the "principles" of Secular Humanism that you say you embrace, and then look at how well you are adhering to them NOW. But that would seem pointless as you continue to interpret them as a "philosophy" not a "faith" that "commands" you. You "philosophize" what you want to "obey" and what you don't. In short, they are all "relative" you and what you decide you want to do. I could discuss your "hair splitting" attempt to rationalize "philosophy versus faith," but you have repeatedly demonstrated that there is no point in doing so, you will choose to do whatever YOU choose to, whenever you choose to do it. One more time, Aphaeresis, given that "philosophy," WHY should your husband decide to do anything other than divorce you, especially with the "philosophy" that you will explore different things and NOT have "absolute" beliefs that TRUMP any "philosophical change" that might strike you in the future?




And that's the point, Aph. You have "no idea." And you won't listen to those who DO have an idea because they have actually lived through it and know what is coming.




One more indication that you really don't "get it." I said NOTHING about NOT telling your husband. What I said is that your "plans" are most often reflective of excuses for not doing something. Since you have decided that his having a job is very important to him and will wait to tell him until he has one, legitimate excuse or not, the logical question is if he doesn't find a job for a LONG time, when will you tell him? The second question is that when you wait and tell him after he has a job, and your "revelation" destroys his ability to HOLD that job, how do you intend to intend to help him through yet another destruction of his life cause by you?

You "SEE" what I said as "reasons why FH thinks you shouldn't tell." That's what I said earlier about your "filtering" everything through your WS "lenses." You don't HEAR what people are saying, you twist it to what you want to hear.



Your not "feeling like" something is at the root of the problem, Aph. You base so many of your choices on your FEELINGS and what you WANT, not what is needed.
ASSUMING that your husband chooses to attempt recovery rather than divorce and your propensity to attack anyone or anything that you perceive as telling you that you are "wrong" in what you are thinking or doing, you seem to think that TIME (your attachment to '2 years') is the "key" to recovering what YOU now want…your marriage.

You are not a "complete moron" Aphaeresis. You ARE several things and it comes through clearly in what you post. The problem is that several of those things define who you ARE and how you relate to others, and they are essentially "fogbound" and "based in lack of actual experience." The only real "actual experience" that you will bring to recovery with your husband is that you've gathered "more sexual experience" FOR him. He will see that clearly, that it was all about helping him and not satisfying your own wants and desires. "Props" for deciding to stop extramarital sex NOW. But why should we, much less your husband, believe that your current "philosophy" about adultery is NOT "subject to change" in the future and that "parochial FIDELITY and exclusivity" to one's spouse IS "until DEATH do us part, no matter what"? After all, it IS only a "philosophy," not a "binding faith."




Well, I hope your protestation is true. But we'll wait and see. Up to now you have chosen to "control" things and have based those choices on what you think will "work" for your marriage. That's fine up to a point, but also choose to attack everyone who say things you don't like and accuse them of "ulterior motives" so you DON'T have to examine your own "core beliefs," or "philosophies."




Aphaeresis, this is pathetic. It is unimportant if *I* hold you accountable to your "philosophy." It is only important that YOU hold yourself accountable to it, but you don't. You "pick and choose" which of the "philosophies" apply to you and "when" they apply or when they can be discarded in favor of you doing whatever you feel like doing at the time. They are, in short, "relative," not "absolute."

That's the equivalent of a believer saying that the 10 Commandments are really the 10 "Philosophies" or "Suggestions." "There is NOTHING that sets the Commandments above personal choice. The Commandments have NO inherent "power" or "right of command" in and of themselves."

Neither do your Secular Humanism "philosophies," or "suggestions." Those choices by people to limit them to "philosophies" or "nice ideas as to how to live one's life" are INDIVIDUAL choices to obey or disobey as they see fit. There is NO "greater authority" that has the RIGHT to command beyond the "philosophies" and no "judge" of right and wrong other than the individual himself or herself.





By all means, stick to the books. Don't listen to anyone who has actually APPLIED the thoughts and ideas and learned what does and doesn't apply to a successful recovery effort. You can read all you want, and that is good and recommended. But in the end, you can only control your own actions and what you choose to DO. We are observing your "choices" through your postings and seeing them through the eyes of those who have actually DONE what was necessary. Some have been successful in recovering their marriages and some have not. The "books" are NOT the answer. Truly changed lives, both the WS and the BS, are what saves marriages when they WORK at those changes and make them permanent parts of a "new life."
You seem to have all the answers, so what difference does it make what anyone might say while trying to help your MARRIAGE survive the most devastating thing that one spouse can do to their spouse?




Of course I chose to ignore it. You have made it abundantly clear that you are not interested in anything that I might say and you already have "all the answers." So why should I spend my time attempting to help where help is not wanted?

You see the "boogey man" of someone wanting to "convert you." That is correct, but it is NOT to Christianity that I would like to see you "convert." It is to a loving, caring, faithful, "until death do us part, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer," self-sacrificing of YOUR wants and needs to what your husband needs" sort of "conversion" that I'd like to see. If you chose to accept Christ, that would be great for your soul, but that's a "pointless exercise" because you don't believe you HAVE an eternal soul, let alone that there IS a God who IS the one true judge of "good and bad."
You think that the existence of He11 would "prove" that any God who existed would be, therefore, "bad" and not worthy of BEING God. But you steadfastly refuse to examine the facts and find ways to reject them out of hand BECAUSE to embrace them would mean that you would have to subject your own wants and desires to someone who really DOES have the right to command you, and to command all people everywhere.
So, given that, why would I seek to convert you? It is NOT up to any Christian to "convert" anyone. That "task" is up to God. All a Christian is "required to do" is to stand ready to answer the question "why do YOU believe what you believe."

That question applies equally to YOU. "Why do you believe what you believe?" You respond by saying that you don't believe, you philosophize. You seek "new truths" as long as they fit with what YOU want.

THAT is why I keep asking you when you are going to submit yourself and your life TO the "commands" of your chosen faith, or Secular Humanism philosophy, if you prefer.




Aphaeresis, you are making excuses again. NO ONE is "giving you orders." What applies here is the old saying (adage) "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." You are refusing to "drink" because you don't WANT to. Your marriage isn't even on "life support" right now. Your marriage is DEAD and people are trying to teach you "CPR" that may help to resuscitate your marriage and give your husband the "will to fight for the life of your marriage."




Yes it is. You have no concept of what "Christ-like" love is. Perhaps you've heard of "Tough Love?" If you have, you might have a little understanding of one form and application of "love," and may be able to "see" what others are trying to do to help you.

But your concept, or philosophy, of "love" is something that does deserve examination, though I don't think you are likely to do that either.

BK - we are in agreement on this.

Aph,

Do you work outside of your home? Is there any way you can take the kids and go to where he is while he looks for a job?

Why is he looking for a job away from home?

I guess I don't understand why he is away from home. Can't he use a job service to find a job?...mail out resumes, use the internet?

Well, well, well,

Ladies and Gentlemen: BobPure is in the house! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />



“Eddie” Goodstuff

If I may interject here, I haven't read this entire thread, but what I have read so far is truly unbelievable. I guess I'm naive, but I just didn't know there were people in the world like this.

God Help Aph.

FH, This will be my last post to you.


I'm not assuming any such thing. I just don't believe there is any such thing as preparing for divorce except in the financial sense. I've said this before but you chose to ignore it, just as you choose to ignore most of what I say.


Ah, see now comes the truth. You have no intention of trying to help. You just like listening to yourself talk. Fine, I'm not answering any more of your posts then.


I'm quite familiar with tough love and what you are doing is not it. You just admitted that your posts were not designed to help me at all. Therefore, you are not applying the concept of "tough love." It's all tough and no love because you have already judged me to be a hopeless case. Your own words condemn you. End of discussion.

Aph-

Whose advice are you following? Who here are you in agreemant with?

****EDIT**** another one who likes to hear himself talk. If you don't have anything useful to add to the discuss, ****edit*** I'm the one who started this topic and I would like to actually discuss what to do without getting sidetracked and thread-hijacked by ****EDIT*****


weaver,


Last year, he had to look for a job and couldn't find any in town. That is partly because this is a university town where everybody is looking for interns or recent grads to lower their own costs. Unfortunately, I was finishing up grad school here in town. But we got to the point where he really needed a job because we were hurting for money even though I was doing some part-time freelance work. So I told him just do a nation-wide search and I'll join you when I finish school. Neither one of us was happy about it but we didn't have much choice. So he took a job out of state.

So now I'm pretty much done with school (except for my thesis but I don't have to be in town for that.) The kids are done with school for the year, and my lease is up July 31. His contract is up mid-July. I am currently looking for a job in his city just in case he ends up on unemployment there, but if he gets a job out of state again, I would have to quit and go join him whereever.

I would imagine a job service would cost money, which we don't have, although if you know of any cheap ones, please let me know.

Owl,


Well if I start listing people, there may be some I accidentally forget and some have given me more advice than others. So it's not meant as an exhaustive list, and I'm sorry if I overlook someone. Larry has been the most help. In the rare event we disagree, he usually manages to persuade me. I agree most of the time with Mrs.Wondering and when I don't she has sometimes persuaded me. Mr. G has been a huge help lately. Ace_in_bucket has been a big help, and also bigkahuna. And Orchid. Got off on the wrong foot with JustLearning but I'm pretty sure I remember getting some helpful advice from him - I just don't always remember who said what. And once in a while someone I often disagree with does say something helpful that makes sense to me - MelodyLane is one.

I just know I'm forgetting people, but off the top of my head there you go.

I think the most persuasive posters are the ones who are good listeners and take your concerns into account and actually address them when forming a response.

Aph,

It's been a horrendous week for me with MIL death, triggers of today being the anniversary of D-Day #1 and other stuff.

This morning I said on the thread about "What did you think when you first came to MB" that I haven't been able to focus real well but I just saw where you said:


That makes me feel good....I remember the night Big K and I commiserated on the recovery board about how we both wished you hadn't left.....and you had not.

You and I are so opposite, Aph, but I care deeply that you find peace, whether or not it's from the same source as mine.

Ace

P.S. One of these days, sooner or later, you'll see snail evidence. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace, Thanks! The week's almost over. Maybe the next one will be better for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

UPDATE:

My husband's boss wants to extend his contract and give him a raise. The problem is, the company has all these rules regarding contract workers so his boss might have no say in the matter, although he said he would try. If I were superstitious I'd be crossing my fingers

If they do extend his contract, there's no reason why I can't join him as soon as I can get our stuff moved. But right now it's a big IF. He's also working toward a professional certification that will help him in his next job search, whenever that might occur.

I sent him an email saying I was proud of him even if the company could not keep him on for policy reasons.

APH

Thank you, I have seen some really, really good advice given to you here. I think my best advice was for you to see what this forum had to offer compared to. . .

For those who seem to have an ax to grind with Goodstuff, I suggested that he was the one person I felt was MOST qualifed to help Aph. I stand by that opinion. His grace under attack says all it needs to say about his character.

Larry

So Aph - Pep's hunch proved correct. Where are you going from here? Please keep us up-to-date.

bigkahuna,

It's still up in the air but I think some things I said got through to him. I've had all this time to think about what I need to do to save the marriage and this is just his first day of being confronted about his part in this mess. So it'll take a while before he's really convinced that working things out is the best option. As he sees it, there are no good options. Anyway, I have more info on the other thread (under just found out "I'm not the only one who cheated" topic for anyone who doesn't already know.)