APH:

Lemme see if I can add some clarity:


Following that train of thought, you betrayed your husband, yourself, the OP and the OP's wife. What your adultery partners did is no worse OR NO BETTER than what you did, true. You were an enabler of the betrayal of the OP's wife. Yea, if not you, then somebody. But that begs the issue. The OP's wife was betrayed, you facilitated that betrayal and honesty is as honesty does, no half measures.

Assuming that you are going to come clean, that means come clean, not half clean. And you owe the OP's exactly zero, nothing; they took the risk of consequences and made their choice, something that their wives were not allowed, the choice.

You continue to betray the OP's wives unless you do the right thing. So who deserves betrayal here, the OP or the OP's wives? Who had a choice and who didn't.

Larry

Mrs. W and Larry,

Your arguments are persuasive. I just hate the idea of making things worse than they already are or directly causing more pain than I have already. I'll think about it. I think my husband should be the first one I tell.

I have a question specific to my first OM's wife. She caught him two years ago, knows about me and he's been faithful for two years. So she already knows the truth. Wouldn't an apology from me now just bring up a painful trigger? She doesn't know me so I can't imagine why she would care whether I was sorry. I don't think I would.

You're view is so strange that you even call the likes of Mel a prude. These ladies, committed, Resilient, Mel are among the most passionate women I have ever had the pleasure of reading.

Ty for the compliment weaver. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sex can be GREAT when it's with the person that you are "committed" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> to...as in married.

I know that I set rules early in my life in regards to sex.

I can attend every high school and college reunion and KNOW that not one guy there has seen me nekkid....and never groped me...let alone had SEX with me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

It's nice to mingle and not have that vision in my head <shudder>.

AND...I am far from a prude. I am very selective as to who I share that part of me with. It has to be a person that I feel safe with, and 100% emotionally vested in...which would ALWAYS be the person that I am married to.

I am looking forward to being married again one day. I know that my husband won't be disappointed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

committed

And now that plenty inappropriate has happened, they can never be your friends ever, ever again. Why do you still have contact information for these philanderers?


And you don't care enough about your H 2 take the extraordinary precautions 2 protect him from your addiction, do you?


You are STILL betraying your H. Not past tense. You owe the OMs nothing but COMPLETE and PERMANENT silence!


And no better either, apparently.


Welcome 2 consequences.

-ol' 2long

Aph, I'll answer you with one of the principles from your Secular Humanist post...



Now you answer me...What do you think you should do if you are, in fact, now adhering to those principles?

Mrs. W

Aph,

It was the full intention of the OW in my case to never tell me.

She was, supposedly, my FRIEND.

(Gives that word some meaning I had not lent it before!)

Yes, she owed me an apology. Whether it was two years, two months, or two days in coming, it was owed.

Whether or not I knew her.

I would say, you owe her the dignity of at least a card in the mail, with a sincere apology for the destruction you have wrought on her life. For you have, in fact, done at least that. And two years? It isn't a flash in the pan, Aph. Not when you are the BS.

But you don't know that. Not yet.

As far as telling the OM's wives:

I lived knowing something was wrong. I didn't know what it was. It ate me alive, every single day, but I had no idea that it was as bad as it was.

I didn't want to know it was an affair, but I did want to know what it was.

Again, you are making decisions for other people. You have placed your own wants above those of others.

You want to be able to escape from the consequences of your affairs. You cannot. EVEN IF you don't ever tell your husband. Because, you will live with the gift of the guilt. You are here because something inside of you is shifting - and you came here because you know that you have to take steps to rectify this situation, one way or the other.

You don't like it. Nobody does.

And the BS in this case will not like it either - not your husband, and not the wives of your OM.

But, your husband has the right to know. You have figured that out. You have figured out that the only way you can have a marriage that can be strong, happy, and solid is if you get this affair-business cleared out.

And if you can, move ahead together, through this very difficult time, and rebuild in love, in spite of the turmoil and hurt. To find each other again, and to regain that love you once had, that you know is there inside the both of you. To use that as your foundation, and to build a new marriage on the rubble of the affairs.

I wonder why you are denying the other couples the same right?

Why do you deny those women the right to make that decision for themselves?

Because it will hurt?
Because it will be hard?

For them?
For their husbands?
Or for you?


Or is it......Aph........


That you have finally come to feel what I have hoped for?


Shame
and
Remorse


And you do not want to let the OM's wives know because it means that everyone will see what you have done, and see what you had become?

I am thankful for seeing this weakness, Aph.

Truly. Because it means you are close to being broken.

And you need to be broken in order to clear your fog.

SB

2long,


Because as far as I know, they haven't changed their email addresses, although I could be wrong. Come to think of it, though, that wouldn't help me find contact info for the wives. But it doesn't matter, I think I remember enough information to track them down.

-----

Mrs. W and everybody,

My dilemma is this. Because she already knows, honesty is not the issue. It is true that people should apologize for things they did wrong. It's also true that it's wrong to cause someone pain. But what if the apology itself is more painful than not saying anything at all? Maybe any contact from me would simply cause her pain no matter what I said. So I'm left with - which option would cause her less pain - leaving her alone or apologizing?

As for the other wife, yeah I'll write something after my husband knows everything. And the third if there is any way to contact her, but there might not be. I'll include copies of some of Dr. Harley's articles. I would really like the truth to result in better marriages and not divorce, especially when I'm the messenger <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Aph,

You probably posted this in one of your beginning threads, so forgive me if you did -

What made you decide to stop cheating and work on your marriage? What triggered all of this apparent desire to change?

Of course honesty isn't the issue. Dishonesty, deceit, avoidance of personal responsibility are just some of the "issues." You rationalize that "she knows he was unfaithful" and negate the necessity of sincere and abject remorse for the part you played in the willful rape of HER marriage. Her husband held her down, decidedly against her will, and you raped her and took was hers exclusively to hold or give up. You had ZERO right to what belonged to her.

But then that "right" is inherent in your adherence to a tenet of Secular Humanism that allows you the "right" to do whatever you feel like doing in the sexual arena:

Mature adults [color:"red"]should[/color] be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences

"Should be" means simply that this tenet gives the individual the right to do whatever they think they want to do. And Secular Humanists CLAIM that "right" for themselves. Why is that? That answer is contained in another tenet of Secular Humanism that you have stated you embrace:

We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.

A "nice sounding" tenet, until it begins to be applied to justifying what someone wants to do that WILL hurt others. Forget "parochial loyalties" of FIDELITY in marriage. Forget "parochial" VOWS that are BINDING upon the marital partners. "Religion" says "Thou shalt NOT commit adultery." But that's parochial and "religious" and all good Secular Humanists MUST reject and deny anything that supposedly comes from any God that really doesn’t exist, because Secular Humanists SAY that God doesn't exist. Therefore, ANYTHING like a Commandment is nothing more that perhaps a somewhat "practical" suggestion and philosophy of OTHER humans.

Oh, but wait, Secular Humanists might say, but we support monogamy and fidelity in marriage as the "best choice" and that is arrived at by our human reason and seeing the results of marriages that are not monogamous and that lack fidelity. However, it is only a suggestion that a believer in Secular Humanism can choose for themselves and for how to live their own life. It is NOT a commandment that we have a right to "impose" on anyone. Each person is free to choose for himself or herself what is "right" for them.

The tenet of Secular Humanism that trumps any such "constraint on MY behavior" is:

We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are [color:"red"]open to[/color] novel ideas [color:"red"]and seek[/color] new departures in our thinking.

There are NO "absolutes." Secular Humanists actively SEEK "departures" from the "norm" and from what we may have "thought" was right.





Why is that true? Apologizing for "wrongs" committed means that there MUST be a "right way of behaving" that was violated, and in the case of adultery, WILLFULLY violated. But if "departures from" what is the accepted "norm" is what is actively sought and what a Secular Humanist is "open to," there ARE NO absolutes and, therefore, right and wrong is merely relative. "I wanted it. I took it. It is my right to pursue my own aspirations regardless of what your "parochial" thinking might be."




We are in agreement on this, but "pain" is sometimes necessary, and therefore NOT "wrong." Sometimes pain MUST be faced and accepted because there cannot be healing without "cutting out" the disease or ever-present painful lesion or scar tissue that is limiting a "full range of motion."

It is wrong to cause someone willful, malicious, unnecessary pain.




Avoiding necessary pain is not only wrong, but it serves the "self-centered interests" of the one person at the expense of another. That "justifies," or at least "rationalizes," the idea that "well, they already know that they were the victim of adultery, so I don't have to do anything to accept responsibility for what I did to them because it might cause them further pain or bad feelings." "I don't have to REALLY change my thoughts and beliefs on the subject of "sexual freedom" for each individual, much less that adultery is WRONG, absolutely wrong, in ALL cases."

You leave her, and her marriage, alone AFTER you have done what is necessary. But only IF you truly now embrace that FIDELITY in marriage is "non-negotiable" and an "absolute right" that is NOT open to "personal interpretation" in order to justify getting perceived sexual needs met by anyone you might choose OTHER THAN your spouse.




Procrastination of what is needed is something that we all struggle with from time to time. Never mind her right to know and her need to know as soon as it is within your power to inform her.

You might want to review the Hippocratic Oath that Doctors take for guidance on this one.




Your "job" is NOT to educate, it is to abjectly apologize for your actions. What the adultery results in for their marriage is NOT your concern. You, and her husband, CHOSE divorce for their marriage when you CHOSE adultery. What happens to her marriage is HER choice, the Wayward Spouse and the Other Woman do NOT have a "say in it," nor do you have any right to "suggest" to her that she MUST forgive her husband and not divorce. That is HER choice, and her choice alone.

Aphaeresis, these are the CONSEQUENCES of sin. I know you don't believe in sin, so lets just say that these are the consequences of choices that DO impact others in harmful ways. How THEY react to it will depend entirely upon their own beliefs, their own spouse's remorse, and your sincere repentance (yes, I know, another "religious" word) of what you did to her marriage.

We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

The "authoritarian elites and repressive majorities" have stated clearly that Marriage is an exclusive arrangement between ONE man and ONE woman while they are married. I understand that adherents to Secular Humanism REJECT the "imposition" of this "thought" because it would then put constraints on THEM, and they want to be able to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, TO BE open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking."

Perhaps you may want to rethink some of those "novel ideas and new departures in thinking." Sometimes the "old way" IS the "best way" and not just "relative." Sometimes surrendering our own WILL to another's will IS the best, right, and only true good thing to do because they have the RIGHT to "impose" their will on us as "non-negotiable." Yes, it IS "parochial," but that does not make it "wrong." We can choose to disobey, but then we are by definition committing a willful wrong that will harm others just to "get what we want."

Changing, or letting go, of deeply held beliefs, even when someone recognizes and admits that they are wrong, is NOT easy because it may well change many things, including how we see ourselves. But change is sometimes necessary when dealing with truth, rather than continuing to live a lie simply because that is what we WANT to do. Sometimes change, necessary and needed change, MEANS that I am no longer "free" to do whatever I desire, and giving up that right is what many people don't WANT to do.

Aph...

Just because she already knows of the adultery does NOT release you from your responsibility...I'm also curious, does she actually know about YOU or just about adultery in general? Further, let's be real here, WSs LIE, so you don't really KNOW if she has the full truth at all, and YES, she does deserve the full truth about her life...The wound has already been inflicted, the pain is already there...Your responsibility is to make certain that she knows the truth about what YOU did to her and to apologize SINCERELY for that wrongdoing...This is one of the first steps towards regaining your integrity and living authentically...


Ok, I think you should go ahead and do this NOW...You are going to need to concentrate all of your energies on helping your husband heal after you tell him AND I also think it may go a long way to show him how very serious and sincere that you are about genuine remorse and change...

DO NOT send those BWs ANYTHING at all in the way of adultery education...That would be a slap in the face and not at all welcomed from YOU...Think about how you would feel in the reverse situation Aph, would you want any materials from someone who had been screwing your husband??? Sending them MB stuff is one sure fire way to insure that they don't EVER consider using MB to recover their marriages...THINK EMPATHY APH, EMPATHY...

I caution you to treat this with the seriousness that it demands, you sound very flip when you say "yeah I'll write something"...This is MAJOR...Match your tone to the gravity and sensitivity of the situation at hand...

Mrs. W

Alp,

May I make a suggestion to you? It has always seemed to me that the best and strongest relationships are the ones that place their spouse as the most important, ahead of ALL family including children. In your effort to reconnect with your husband you may need to re-learn this. By that I mean that your history of involvement with other men and your husband’s loss of consideration of you, have resulted in the state that you currently find yourself and all the reparations should be for the benefit of you and your husband before anything else.

The real implications are much larger. At this point where you have yet to disclose your affairs to your husband, it may perhaps be premature to address issues of your integrity and honesty with respect to the other men and their wives. I suggest that a best thing that you can do for yourself and your husband to “close the book” on your past actions subject only to his inquires. If you never hear nor see any sight of them again then that will be healthy for you and your husband. I really see little value to you and your husband to make any further contact with the OMen or their wives. Stick with NO CONTACT, none, nothing, no emails, no phone calls, no nothing. Do whatever you must to make their contact with you impossible.

Concentrate on the things that will make YOUR husband better to the exclusion of ALL else and I expect that you too will become better.

Mr. G

weaver,

Well, a whole bunch of things started coinciding at once. My husband has baby fever in spite of our financial (and marital) difficulties. I have managed to convince him to wait until things are better financially. My latest OM was about to move out of the area just as I found a different message board about infidelity by accident (a link from a letter in the Savage Love sex advice column.) When I first got there I talked about how I wished I could talk my husband into an open marriage. But then there were a lot of guys whose wives had cheated on them talking about how hard it was to take, and I started asking them questions. In retrospect, I think my wish for an open marriage was an expression of my unhappiness with all the secrets, deceit and lies. That's the part I was never happy with. And they all seemed to agree that you can't give your spouse your full attention when there's someone else, even if you think you do, and the spouse always knows something is wrong. That bothered me.

And Larry was there, too. I remember he said I have to deal with my husband as he is, not as I'd like him to be. And of course he was an example of someone who had forgiven his wife and has happy - that was important. He's the one who really started to pull me out of "the fog" and saved me from myself. When I decided I was going to quit, he directed me to this site and board.

ForeverHers,

I don't appreciate you twisting my words or deliberately misinterpreting Secular Humanism in order to promote your own religious agenda. Get this through your head: I am NOT converting! Conversion only happens when someone is dissatisfied with their own philosophy or religion. I am not. The fact that you don't like Secular Humanism means nothing to me.

Mrs. W,


What I meant is that she knows about me in particular. What you are saying above is that apologizing would be good for ME, but I'm asking if it would be good for her. I don't see the point in inflicting additional harm if it's not going to do her any good.


Oh sure and then one of my OMs can retaliate by telling my husband before I tell him. Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but that's not happening.


In the reverse situation, there is no way I would ever want an apology letter in the first place. I would not want any contact from her at all. ANY contact would be a slap in the face. I would most likely not believe her if she did apologize, and I certainly wouldn't care even if she was sincere. That's giving her too much power. I would think: How dare she think I would care how she feels about it one way or another? Now if she had been a friend or one of my sisters then MAYBE it would make a difference, but I'm not even sure then. That's why I'm having a hard time understanding why a wife would want such a letter.

Mr. G,



Yeah I think that's best, especially since it would take some detective work to find these women and contact them without communication being intercepted by their husbands.

Alp, you will learn much by sticking around here. Your education into the ways of life and love has already begun but will not begin in earnest until your disclosure. That day will mark a significant milestone in your life.

The discussion of the merits to disclose to the wives of your affair partners would likely help benefit their marriages. It would be a forced disclosure that for a time would most certainly keep you involved in the other men’s lives. They would benefit in a similar manner as you will with your disclosure to your husband. Although that sounds like the high road it really does little for you and even less for your husband.

Worrying about the OM’s wives will come at your husband’s expense. I suggest that it is your husband who needs your attention and no one else. Issues of your integrity and honesty will solve themselves within your marriage and no one else’s.

I hope you consider some of what I have suggested.

Mr. G

Aph, if you choose to not apologize and inform these other women of the harm that you caused their marriage, IMHO you will never be a person of character and are denying even the most basic tenets of sec-hum.
Frankly, your failure to do this will be a slap in the face to every BS that was ever kept in the dark by some self centered, no character OW/M.

MEDC’s observation is true to the mark and 100 percent correct. Fortunately for you and your husband, you are not here for betrayed spouses and you are not their keeper or their surrogate savior. You are ONLY here to save your marriage and your husband, no one else. Your plate is full and your duty is to YOUR marriage. I suggest that ALL your effort go into YOUR family and NO one else’s.

You don’t know what WE look like, who we are or where we came from. We are expendable to you, but your family is not. Take this most important possession and heal it and protect it. Use every tool at your disposal to accomplish this objective. Just remember one thing, it all starts with your disclosure. To that there can be no compromise.

Remember this, “good people sometimes do bad things.” The most important question that will remain with you for a long, long time is, “who are you today?” Protect your husband and keep him safe.

Mr. G

Mr G... your advice about this is immoral and frankly it sucks in this case.
I assume Mr G that you are a BS...or are you a former WS? If it is the latter, perhaps you should keep you opinions to yourself about when a BS should be told about an A. It sounds a bit like WS thinking to me.

100% agree with you MEDC...It's ridiculous advice, IMO...Way to help someone regain their integrity Mr. G...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Aph, listening to Mr. G on this is a great way to keep yourself stuck...sigh...

Mrs. W

Aph, I urge you to listen to MEDC and MrsW.

You see Aph, you have damaged those women as have their husbands, behing their back s and they deserve to know the truth. Their husbands may be cheating still with other OW and exposing them to deadly diseases. Or their marriages may have gone to hel[i][/i]l in a handbasket and they don't know why.

In any case, they deserve the truth about their own lives.

I sure would want to know wouldn't you?

MrG -I can only assume that you never tols the OM's W. (I thought you were a BS). But this is very much wayward thinking.

Mrs. W and BK.... thanks for the follow up. Your unwavering committment to not only MB ideals but also integrity and morality shows that FWS and BS alike can have a common goal of just doing the right thing. Mr G's advice smacks of .. "do what is right for me and damn everyone else." It's sad to see that and really is nothing more than enabling fuzzy WS thinking.
Notice how quick Aph was willing to jump at the solution which conrinues to allow her to act in a self centered way.

Aph,

I really don’t want to become your “moral compass” and I especially do not want to attempt to imprint my moral values into your belief system. That’s just not my bag. The mirror that you peer into each morning hangs in your home and not mine. So to you, my advice is given with the BEST chance at restoring a loving connection with your husband. Let him be your compass and not ME nor anyone else here. My guess is that he will need you more than you can imagine. Perhaps you might find the same to be true in a few short weeks.

To MEDC, BK and Mrs. W, I appreciate and respect your views even when I don’t necessarily agree with them. Living through infidelity is a humbling experience. I have long ago adopted philosophy of “take no offence, offer no defense” that has served me well. Suffice to say that within your dissenting opinions I have been paid the highest complement possible.

Mr. G