Thank you very much 2long...I sincerely appreciate it...

Mrs. W

MB BASIC CONCEPT > Policy of Radical Honesty.

MB BASIC CONCEPT > Policy of Joint Agreement.

Dr Harley's first rule following an affair > Have nothing to do with the former lover for any reason for the rest of your life.

If ALL the rules are followed, recovery is possible, perhaps even likely.

If some of the rules are followed, recovery is possible, but less likely.

The likelihood of a recurrence of an affair is directly related to the steps taken by the (F)WS to prevent it from occurring. This is NOT the same thing as promising to never do it again but involves a change in the way the (F)WS considers interactions with those of the opposite sex to ensure that they are not placing themselves into a dangerous (to the marriage) mind set as well as changing the way they interact with their spouse.

Secrets beget secrecy and isolation; honesty begets intimacy and TRUST.

The danger to the marriage does not come from lack of communication between spouses but from lack of boundaries of the (potential)WS. Failure to protect our own personal boundaries with others leaves our vulnerabilities exposed and makes us more susceptible to submitting to temptation when it comes, which it does whether we think it will or not.

Since we cannot change our vulnerabilities, we must change the way we guard them and the way we allow them to be exposed. Only our spouse has the right to see these things, all others should be excluded.

To fail to guard our own weaknesses and remain vulnerable while hiding things about our daily lives from our spouse turns the whole thing on its head. We become more vulnerable to an affair and less intimate with our spouse when it should be the other way around.

This is the way a WS earns the stripes that elevates them to the status of FWS.

JMO.

Mark

PS When we suffer personal loss such as the death of a loved one most of us tend to gather together with our friends and family for comfort. For many of us that includes our friends here on MB...Praying for your family MrsW.

Mark:

That was an excellent post. All the main points very well put.

-ol' 2long

I agree with 2long, that was an excellent post Mark...




Yes, this is true for me...Mr. W and our DD7 are here with me of course...My closest friends and other family are in Atlanta, however...MB is important to me-my dad knew and appreciated that...

Thank you so much Mark...

Mrs. W

Jo,

That statement was specifically in response to someone saying that someone else would have to hurt me first in order for me to change. I was talking about me because that was the context - the idea of someone hurting me before I would change.

If you want to know about my husband, then ask about my husband.

I never said I had all the answers but I certainly don't have to blindly follow what everyone tells me, especially when you all don't even agree. I have a mind of my own and if you have a problem with that, it's your problem not mine.

fcf,

That's a complicated question. My dad was physically abusive to her and to my siblings and I. Later in life when I was 19, he got help and changed. I still think they yell too much, but they are still together and affectionate toward each other.

BTW, I have a thick skin. Nothing said here can ever hurt me unless I accept it as true for myself.

About your husband...maybe you could talk to him about the fact that you don't feel safe using radical honesty with him about everything. Ask him for help in creating a safer environment so that you CAN use RH without you fearing that he will resort to something stupid and violent. If you explain that you want to be honest but you're afraid of his reaction, then maybe you can get him to a point where you can tell him everything.

Mrs. Wondering,

My condolescences.

Mrs. Wondering and others,

My sincere condolences for the of your father, I shall say a prayer for him this evening.

I replied to your post but my response also includes MEDC and a few others. I think it might be especially beneficial to Aph but in case it’s not a new thread might be appropriate.

I might suggest that if it is your intention to attack my wife, our recovery and me then by all means start a new thread and have at it. Set my wife and me straight. Tell us the better way to recover our marriage. Teach me the things that our 8 weeks with the Harley’s couldn’t accomplish. Tell me where they went wrong and where you are right. Really, don’t stop now, you got me against the ropes; it’s time to “finish me off.”

Before we start you should have your basic facts correct. My wife had an affair that lasted about 18 months when she was 38-39 years old that I never knew about. About 3-4 years latter she began a series of Internet affairs over a seven-year period with eight different partners totaling about 18 separate encounters (I actually don’t even recall the specific arithmetic anymore). She never developed any love interest with any of these men. She disclosed to me before I found out, i.e. she took the first step to change and thus changed our life. No way to sugar coat it, there never is. That was our PAST.

Now perhaps you can see why I might have just a smidgen of advice to offer Aphaeresis. When she discloses to her husband, he will be at the exact same position that I was in nearly three years ago.

My wife and I have been together since 1971 and our marriage is as good as it has ever been. We are now armed with the things we learned through consulting with the Harleys and the advice and guidance that we received in these forums, particularly from “Just Learning” (Aph he’s really got a great heart plus he’s smart as a whip). In those early days I learned much reading the posts of BobPure, 2ofAKind, TooMuchCoffeeMan, Stanley and Marta, CV55, Stillwed, 10 Swords, Anyname, aussieswife, John39, Lilybelle and a host of others; kind hearts with a helping hand many who have not been around here for some time. I suppose that we were pretty lucky couple, “blessed” is the appropriate word. There were many occasions where my views might have parted company from some of those earlier posters but to my recollection such disagreements were mostly handled with grace and a deep respect of our common origins that brought us together in the first place.

You have been given link to my first post by piojitos. Feel free to read our history and learn firsthand what my wife’s recovery and mine really is. With that background you can then make an example of us by pointing out how we may be devoid of integrity and honesty and thus help to bolster your

NOWHERE in any of our consultations with the Harleys were we EVER advised to make contact with my wife’s affair partners or their spouses for ANY purpose whatsoever. My wife was however forewarned that ANY contact with her OM would represent a severe setback in our recovery and a further betrayal. In fact, the Harleys knowing that affairs are closely related to addictions counseled me to remain “guarded” in case she faltered. Nowhere in any of my history on these pages will you find where anyone has made such a recommendation. I wonder why?

So now there should be no question as to my origin as a betrayed spouse but I haven’t really thought of myself as such for a long, long time. By being incorrectly identified as a wayward spouse, correct that, “actively” wayward spouse I had been paid the highest compliment possible. I am no longer a betrayed spouse and my wife is no longer wayward spouse or formally wayward spouse, we are just “husband and wife”. Your misdiagnosis of me helped me to realize that, thank you.

Mr. G

Here are a few other personal attacks directed to my wife or me that I would be happy to reply in greater detail but I really think that attack speaks volumes of the attacker’s character more than I ever could so I've keep my responses brief.



And what did you learn from it?



In the future I check with you so that I can know what it is that I am thinking. I think there is a MB name for this type or argument. Do you know what it is?



What a nice thing to say, no further comment.



I think this reply may be directed to wayward spouses, sadly I am not one. Again, thank you for thinking that I was a WS.



Is there a possibility that once Aph discloses to her husband then they can decide together (POJA) if they want further involvement with OM and their wives? Does he get a vote on this? Do his feelings enter into this decision? Be prepared that HE may be the one who does not want his wife involved any further.



Again, I am not now nor have I ever been a wayward spouse. The rumors of my waywardness are greatly exaggerated. Yes, glad you’re “on the case” it makes it so much easier to slam me without repercussion.



I guess I’m here now. “Take No Offence,” means to never attack anyone here as they will or have been stripped naked by infidelity. There is seldom need to attack the beliefs of the folks here even if I think they may be misguided as I think that most everyone who stays here eventually discovers what is best for them and their marriage. “Offer No Defense”, means that there are folks who come here looking for help but are uneducated in the ways of life and love. They may fight to defend a host of rationalizations. Only when they drop their defense they are able to listen to the sense that called Marriage Builders.



Yes, that is your personal opinion but opposite the opinion of Dr. Harley. I wonder if you really know what it is that I am advising. Is our difference so huge that I am deserving of the insults I have received?



Does that mean that people that believe what I believe cheat on their spouses? Are you implying that I cheat on my wife? That of course, would be wrong but I can understand that in your effort to discredit any kind of descending opinion you might want to place that label on me. If that is true how very cruel. I assume that when you state that I am an advocate of hurting betrayed spouses that you know something beyond the simple advice that I have given in this one thread.



That is a most horrible thing to say to me. What did I say or do to you to deserve such an attack. My wife disclosed to me of her own conscience, it was a commendable and brave thing to do. She took an action here that few are able to take. She recognized her failings and did something to change it. Under Harley’s supervision we destroyed every morsel that could possibly link her back to the Internet. It was a liberating experience and a gift of love that I will never forget. She recommitted to our marriage and then NEVER looked back. Had she latter suggested that she go back and make a contact, to set the world right, I would have been destroyed by the suggestion. Take a look around and let me know just how strong a betrayed spouse is on their D-day, there are plenty of examples.




Your logic is simple, direct and I find little to disagree with. However, my advice to Aph was that her husband is paramount to all else and her first order of business was to disclose her affairs. For her to make contact with her former lovers is a recipe for disaster. Most of us know what happens when a wayward spouse makes contact. It is seldom good. I advised her that everything would change in her life once she made her disclosure. If contact is to be made it should not come in advance of disclosure and even then it may have consequences. If that is what they both want for their recovery then it’s a POJA slam dunk.



Don’t hold back MEDC, just say what’s on your mind. What’s “fishy”?



You must feel it necessary to bring up the elements of my past to kind of help remind me that my wife was once lost to me. Such a kind and gracious thing to do. Is there something about my recovery that rubs you the wrong way? Is there something I did to you personally? If you think that I harbor any remorse that one of these men did not come forward then you are sadly mistaken. If you think that I blame THEM in any way, then you are again mistaken. You sound foolish to me, as it was my WIFE who let me down and NO one else. She was the responsible party. I wanted nothing from them. All I wanted was my life back and low and behold she brought it back. To me it seems that you have no compassion in a place where compassion is everything or perhaps your compassion is only available to the poor souls who agree with your ideals.

You and several others have gone out of your way to cast stones at me but it really matters little as my wife and I are far down the recovery road. We are not so far that your words of hate do not affect me but we are certainly far enough that we can easily recover.

How I so dearly wish that the Harleys would take note of this thread. Perhaps someone can ask them why they felt it necessary to omit your value system from my recovery.

Mr. G

Is there something about this statement that is confusing to anyone here?

Mr. G

Mr. G, you do understand that that comment refers to the affairee contacting the other affairee, right? Harley very much believes that the betrayed spouse of the OP should be told about the affair. He recommends that the BS contact the other BS, rather than the WS calling and chancing contact with the OP.

My opinion is that any wayward who has not ensured that the other betrayed spouse knows is not sincerely recovered because he/she has not recovered her moral compass. The other BS is also the victim of BOTH affairees, after all, and recovery involves making amends to one's victims. The desire to make amends to one's victims is the hallmark of true recovery.

Dr.Harley outlines his principle of informing the victim of the affair here:


entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Specifically, Dr.Harley has addressed the issue of HOW to inform the spouse of the OP on the radio and in other private areas of this board. Exposing to the OPS is a matter of private morality and he does not presume to take on that role. His advice only reaches as far as what is best for the marriage at hand AFTER the affair has ended. However, he does believe it is the moral thing to do and has given instruction on how to do it:


Should I reveal to OP Spouse from a MB point of View about the nature of the A and it's extent?

The primary reason to reveal the affair to lover's spouse (OPS) is to gain support in breaking up the affair. But when the affair is already over, that reason is lost. A secondary reason is for altruistic reasons -- the OPS should know that the affair took place (you would want to know if the tables were turned). But for the practical reason of helping your marriage, I regard it as optional, and should be done only if you both enthusiastically agree to it.

<snip unrelated>

And last:
Dr Harley, from a morality point of view, it is the right thing to do. I understand this. And the overwhelming reason to do so. But, what does it accomplish 18 months later? 36 Months Later? 5 years?

It's moral in the sense that you are helping your spouse's lover come to grips with his problem. Hopefully, they will go through the same process you followed, and their marriage will not only be successful, but they will have prevented future affairs. Remember, though; your wife is to have absolutely no contact with her former lover. You should make the call just in case he answers. When his wife is on the line, you can turn the phone over to your wife. It may be a good idea for you to both be on the phone at the same time talking to the OPS.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Too true, Mr.G, even when out of context.

ML said:
In order for my husband to enthusiastically agree, he first has to know. Therefore I was right in saying I should tell my husband first before telling the wives. And because I can't predict what he will or won't enthusiastically agree to, there's not even any point in discussing it (exposure to wives) right now.

This post was originally about what I need to do to work on myself. I think it would help if my plan followed some sort of linear, chronological order.

On another thread, Orchid suggested I Plan A myself. The trouble is, he's so depressed right now nothing I do seems to reach him. If I try too hard, he just gets annoyed. I guess it's similar to a WS in withdrawal. I wish I could cheer him up, but nothing seems to work.

Aph - you most certainly should tell your husband first. I understand your reasons for wanting to be together before you do that.

Well of course you should tell him first. He is the first one in line for the truth.

Not at all confusing to me, Mr. G. I happen to agree with it. Informing the OM's spouses should be the decision of the Betrayed Spouse, not the Wayward Spouse.

But what is interesting is that there are two things that are equally "not confusing," that are part of this current drama (and actually part of all infidelity where a Married person is the OP). First the unsuspecting BS of the OP has a right to know that which has been kept secret from him/her, first so that he/she can decide to remain married or not, and second to potentially avoid the OP "moving on to" another marriage and destroying another marriage. Tougher to play the "adultery game" when your spouse is "looking over your shoulder" without the "blind trust glasses" on anymore.

The second "not confusing" thing is that Aphaeresis is not, despite claims to the contrary, surrendering herself to the tenets of her chosen faith. She continues to "pick and choose" which tenets apply to her and which she will rationalize away.

For me, I am simply waiting to see what happens when her husband returns. IF she does actually confess to him, HE will be the one who will really need some help. All attempts to try to reach Aphaeresis with some understanding of what she is going to be unleashing on her husband have been met with resistance or excuses.

She wants to wait until he has a job and then will tell him. What she doesn't understand is that it is very likely that his job won't last long after he is flattened emotionally by the nuclear holocaust she will be unleashing on him. MANY Betrayed Spouses, if not all, found it EXTREMELY difficult to "function" well at work, or at best could function in "short bursts." But the emotional onslaught is overwhelming and almost EVERYTHING triggers huge emotional swings and resultant feelings of things like "why should I be concerned about working, there's nothing left to work FOR." Intense anger rages and alternates with intense bouts of crying, even tougher for a man who may have been told that "real men don't cry."

Experience has shown that very few, if any, Wayward Spouses truly understand the depth of the pain they unleash through adultery. Some who have been successful in recovering their marriages DO come to understand a good part of it, but only after a long time in recovery. That's partly why a common "lament" of many recovering Wayward Spouses is "why can't you just get over it already?!" and "I don't want to talk about it anymore." What they continue to not understand is that Recovery is in the hands of the Betrayed Spouse. It is the BS who decides "how much information is enough and how many details they need" and how many times they need to go back over already inquired about areas. It's all part of THEIR healing process. But some WS's want to be in control of recovery in much the same way they were in control of who they had an affair with and what they did or didn't do in that affair.

As regards the comments that have been directed to you by some others, while distasteful, your recovery has worked for you and your wife and THAT is the purpose of MB, not that you MUST do everything according to the "letter" of MB or you will fail in recovery. MB increases the chance that a marriage can recover when both spouses are working "from the same playbook," so to speak.

But you also have to be careful in extending the "what worked for us applies to you" too concept. It may, but there are no guarantees and if it deviates from standard MB concepts, there has to be a rational reason for it that goes beyond just an "automatic" rejection. MB has proven "rules" that work in many, but not all, cases. The same holds true with many other things. I happen to believe, because I am a Christian, that God is an essential partner in a Christian marriage. For people like Aphaeresis who is an adamant atheist, the "things of God" are mere foolishness.

Therefore, since she has such a strong bias against anything "religious," and especially against Christianity, she has chosen to attack me and any attempts that I have made to "hold her accountable to her chosen faith." She resorts to deflecting self-refection and potential real change into an attack with accusations that I am trying to "convert her" and win "brownie points" with God so that she doesn't have to "face herself."

She has no clue yet, other than what seems to be growing realization that adultery is wrong in ALL cases and is NOT a way to address "marital problems and difficulties." So the attacks you've been getting seem to directed at not "encouraging" Aphaeresis that her own cloudy judgment is "sufficient." Attacking you personally is not, imho, the "best way" to try to get that idea across. I suspect that a strong aversion to "enabling" is what is motivating many of those posts, whether you agree with it or not, because they may be perceiving your comments to Aphaeresis as a form of "enabling."

What has resulted from this is that Aphaeresis is pretty much back to where she was when this thread began. She will do whatever she thinks is "okay with her" and will reject any idea that she doesn't like.

So the answer to her question; "What does working on myself mean?" is that it was never a true request to begin with. She is only going to do what she feels like doing and will NOT consider looking at core issues that might actually be beneficial to change.

She SAYS that she needs, for example, to fully embrace the tenets of Secular Humanism, but she continues to proceed to violate several of them in her postings and in her excuses.

As I said earlier on, the clock is ticking and if she does confess to her husband, then we'll see if they can be helped. Until then, she has made her "do it my way" stance clear enough and it's pointless to offer advice where advice is not wanted.

Yes you were Aph...My apologies for suggesting otherwise to you...I had not fully thought that through-a huge mistake on my part...I have never been a BS, and I did not consider the full implications on your BH of what I advised, and for that I am deeply sorry...

Thinking it through I can certainly see where he should be the FIRST one told, to do otherwise would make him feel even more "the last to know" type feelings...What I should have advised, if at all, is that perhaps you could have the letters to the OMW's typed up and ready to go for him to send...This would be in an effort to show him your level of seriousness and true commitment to change...But I do now realize that a newly betrayed spouse concentrates on their own pain first, as it should be...They are the wounded lying on the floor bleeding and they must be tended to first...

Mrs. W

FH - I believe other BS should be told period. Ideally that would be the BS who would do that but if they refuse, then the WS should do it. For all the reasons you outlined.

It only matters that the BS is told and this can be done by the WS without risking NC.

Orchid: U R correct. I read further and saw Mrs. W. and other agreed. Now this is progress. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Plan A changes by you and for you. The benefit to the others is a side benefit. So continue with plan A. Depressed or not, that is his issue. You continue to move forward. Both must work for the M but at your own pace, fighting your own issues and working towards a common goal. In time you w/b a team. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Small steps. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

ForeverHers,


And you are basing that on what? My past behavior that I've already given up?


You are way out in left field with that one. I have no idea where you got that.


Oh, so it's hopeless is it? I thought you agreed that I *should* tell him. Now you're coming up with reasons why I shouldn't. Make up your mind! I'm well aware of the symptoms of depression because I've had them before and my husband seems to have them now because of the job situation. I get that this will depress him. I'd have to be a moron not to.


And how many of them actually talked to BS's or read boards like this one BEFORE the big reveal? I'm really getting tired of being treated like an idiot. I am well aware that it will take him about two years to recover. I've said this more than once. And I already know not to say things like "can't you just get over it already" because I've been reading and I'm not a complete moron. Your entire post is one giant insult to my intelligence and I'm not sure I feel like reading your posts anymore.


And you've already judged me as being this person. Well I'm not trying to "control" anything. I'm trying to understand how to HELP him. Big difference.


No, you have mischaracterized and attacked my PHILOSOPHY (NOT faith). You don't even understand it, so how can you hold me accountable to it? No, what you were trying to do was convert me to Christianity, but you don't want to admit it now that you see it won't work.


As opposed to what? Doing everything you tell me? Let me tell you something, I have read two of Dr. Harley's books and most of the articles on the site. I'm just as capable of learning from books as anyone else. In fact, I'm thinking maybe I should just stick to the books and let you bicker amongst yourselves, since you seem to do that so well.


Actually, I have a thread that discusses core issues or possible core issues but you chose to ignore it.


There is a difference between giving advice and giving orders. I will take advice if it's backed up by good, sensible arguments. I will not take orders no matter how many insults you back them up with.


Love? That's rather ironic. I don't see any of that in your posts.

I read about Plan A. I'm still not sure what I can be doing right now, as opposed to later. Maybe I'll list what I've done so far and see what's missing, in no particular order:

Wrote a disclosure letter for later, plus a couple of more letters detailing who and when, etc. one vague, one detailed.

Said goodbye to last OM, made myself unavailable to others.

Changed online habits to avoid trouble spots.

Figured out the whys and the contributing factors (I think.)

Reducing LBs, increasing compliments. Not that it does much good right now, but I suppose it's good practice.

Also came up with a few ideas for SF with husband to get around incompatibility problems, but of course that's for much, much later.

---

Mrs. W, no problem.