I want to be Hugh Hefner!!!!!


WHAT!!!!!!!!! Please do not chalk it up to immaturity.

Maybe ask this. What in you made you wait 2 and a half years to start asking "WHY"

What in you allowed you to do that to Frozen and your M and your Recovery.

That same thing is what allowed you to Have the A!!!

Gross. You do not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Are you being sarcastic? Do you not think that we can become what ever kind of person we want to become? Do you think we do not determine this, by first figuring out who the person is we want to become?

I know that you changed yourself, you said so in one of your own posts. You must have done it by your own will and actions. I mean who we are is not something that is written in the stars and must forever be. If that were true most of us would be doomed to forever repeat the past.

And I will chalk it up to immaturity because that is exactly what it is. Having an affair is gross immaturity. When we learn better we do better. I have never met a person who was cheating and telling lies that was not immature.

Immature means not fully developed...mentally, spiritually, emotionally.

You can find all the reasons you want but what it all boils down to is not being fully developed.

I have boundaries now because I am mature, I have developed in wisdom enough to know I need them.

I see the big picture now because I am mentally and spiritually developed enough to be able to, and to know that everything I do effects that big picture.

Immature people don't seem to grasp the idea of their actions affecting other people, as well as their own self-respect.

Immature people say cruel things with no thoughts of the effect to others. They smoke with no thought of what they are doing to themselves and to others. They cut people off in traffic with no thoughts to causing accidents. They treat people like dirt with no thought of the domino effect of their actions. And so on and so forth.

Interesting post, Weaver. I agree.

It doesn't EXCUSE their immature behavior. In fact, what it means is that they need to grow the heck up!!! I take it that you're not saying that they're not responsible for their actions...its simply that they were so selfishly immature that they didn't care about the results of their actions.

Like a little child...its all me, me, me!

Good things to think about. Your description of the actions of immature people is pretty thought-provoking as well.

Good post!

No, you are right, it is not an excuse, just a fact.

I would bet big dollars that Patriot already knows why he had an affair but having trouble putting it into words.

Using an excuse of being in a hostile environment would be an example of immaturity (not taking responsibility for ones self). If a more mature person were in a hostile environment he would either find a way to thrive in that environment such as the sales person example used above, or find a new job. These are acts of maturity. Having an affair because things are so bad and using a non-positive coping mechanism such as an affair is an act of immaturity.

I'm going to give a couple more examples of why women might have an affair, both of which are because of immaturity.

One is one of my favorite MB's KYyellow, or jelly as she is often called. (I hope she doesn't mind me using her as an example). She had an affair because she is a conflict avoider, she was unable to say no the advances of the OM. conflict avoidance is a form of immaturity, not being able to handle conflict. She did not know that it was not only her responsibility to say no, but that she was harming a lot of people while she thought she was protecting OM's feelings and not making any waves. Does that sound like the thought processes of a mature mind?

For me, I used to not be able to say no either. I either stayed with boyfriends too long or went out with guys in the first place because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. Once I passed the point of not wanting to continue with them, and staying with them because I didn't want to hurt them I would just start dating someone else behind their back. I was a coward and too damn selfish to do the dirty work of ending the relationship. Wanted them to do it for me and then I wouldn't have to hurt their feelings.

Well how frigging immature is that?

The only thing that cured me my sister telling me one day I was going to go to h*ll for my selfishness. And I didn't change because I was afraid of h*ll because I didn't believe in such a place after death (still don't), but because someone thought so little of me to say such a thing. I disgusted her. That was all it took for me to grow up and start to say no when I didn't want to and end it when I wanted to if I did date them.

Young girls often mistake the notion of not hurting someone else feelings by saying no, and then hurting them very badly by saying yes. How immature.

No I don't want to be Huge.

In a sense yes but no. Yes we can visualize what we want to be in the future. The kind of person we want to be but we may not have the tools to be that type of person.

Some changes are not possible to make on your own or even with help.

I read a very interesting book called "Now discover your strengths." It identifies your top 5 strengths but says it is hard to change those. Your best bet is to make those stronger.

It is hard to change form a thinker to a feeler. So I can visualize being a good person that does the right thing but not necessarily the underlying things.

As far as the IMMATURATY I will have to disagree with that.

I think that very mature, grown up people have affairs.

I think if there was anything I could say is a underlying common thread in WS is Selfishness.

Selfish people are not always immature.

Oh and you are correct I did change.

But first I had to realize those problems existed.

The WHY if you will. If I would have chalked that up to immaturity I wouldn't be where I am now.

I wonder if the question 'Why did I have an affair?' is really a way of saying 'Why didn't I not have an affair?', if you'll excuse the double negative.

It strikes me that if someone doesn't have mature coping skills, and does have weak boundaries, and has developed a fragile values system, then the chances are that they look at people who do have those things with incomprehension.

Thye can see that others do things differently, but they haven't a clue how they achieve it.

That's the real challenge - to work out what's missing and acquire it.

(And people who acquired all the skills growing up, because of the circumstances of their particular personality and environment, are equally confounded by those who don't have the skills.)

TA

Orchid said

Some more than others it seems.

In reading your post, I know that selfishness is a part of my why, but I am curious if there is more to that. Selfishness mixed with what? Evilness? Desire to get sex? Desire to hurt someone? I know that I didn’t set out to deliberately hurt Frozen. Meaning I did not sit up late at night and plan this misadventure in order to destroy her.

Killing her was not my goal. But I certainly did not care all that much about her. I mean I was far more interested in not getting caught than stopping because she didn’t deserve to be hurt in that way.

Why? What else could be there??

Of course WSs spin things well. Anyone trying to hide something learns how to deceive to continue hiding it. Some are better than others. Lying is not a tool of the wayward, but a tool of anyone hiding something they are ashamed of. I am certain that countless people have lied to hide something and on the other hand are a BS in this very forum. So… lying is not only for the wayward…

Analyzing too much is probably going to be a problem. Frozen analyzes a ton. I have begun to as well… but what is this closure your talking about. How do you get it?? Really…that sounds like something to possibly try and find. Along with everything else.

Mopey,
Not protecting one’s weaknesses is straight out of the Harley manual. The love bank must be protected from others besides your spouse and if not, then you are exposing your weaknesses and will fall. What are my values? That is a great question. I will answer it explicitly after I have had time to formulate something intelligent. So expect something more on that. I really want to explore that and establish values of a strong character.

P/A and conflict avoider… that’s me with her. I am not that way for the most part with anyone else. I know that is linked to my childhood and dealings with my step mother. I learned and became so strong at hiding myself from her because I was not deemed acceptable. That story could go on for a while, but I know exactly where my P/A and conflict avoiding behavior begins. So, the best option I have dome up with in dealing with that is vigilance in remembering that she is not my mother, nor my enemy. I need something more I think… because vigilance is just sheer will… really. A stronger plan would be nice, if it could be developed.

Your husband probably never thought he was above reproach. In fact, he probably had way more effort and thinking spent on the fantasy itself and worry about getting caught. Mix in addiction and you got a real problem on your hands that really had no logical solution. Or so it looks.

Bringiton,
You are completely right.
First mopey highlights the fact that the person that has to build me up is me. And I agree. Then you add that first expecting someone else to build up my self esteem was a bad idea. Then, a method I choose to do it was actually destructive to the very thing I was trying to build.

I have to tell you, this is a recurring theme with me. Wanting X. Doing Y to get X. Come to find out, Y is precisely the way to NOT get X. Story of my emotional life. That issue is caused by self-protection. False self-protection. Keeping people out will ensure they don’t hurt me. That has been my thought for a long time. Being vulnerable in a relationship is something only frozen as every gotten to see with me. I need lots of practice still, but it is important to be reminded of what you said. Self-esteem isn’t admiration. It is my concept of me. Not other convincing me of how ‘X’ I am. It is me defining me.

Mindwarped,
Yes it stroked my ego. And ego stroking mixed with low self-esteem is a loaded gun. Do the ENQ in the context of my mind then? (eyes open wide) How do I do that? Would that even help?? Also, after so much time, things are very cloudy about how I felt then. I often feel like I was just evil and stupid. I know I thought I was cool. What an immature joke. I could bag some ****** at work and I thought I was cool… sad.

It is the lottery that she is still here, really. Very lucky.

Smartcookie,
Warning noted. Hostile work environment is really only low self esteem mixed with peer-pressure like behaviors. Something goes on that I don’t like. It isn’t like they were screaming lewd jokes and playing grab-[censored] in the hall. But flirting and other seemingly meaningless things happened. But it gets the mind working. Thinking. Wondering. And then you don’t think very highly of yourself and people make it seem like you are cool when you tell jokes.. or make remarks… or flirt. I just shook my head. How so very junior high this sounds…

I am not unduly influenced by the environment now because I learned something in all of this. Nothing in this world makes me feel better about myself than upholding my oaths and promises. So first I must not enter into them lightly. And then I must uphold them. Like I have upheld my oath to the military for over 16 years. Like I have upheld my oath to my country. I have the ability to do it as evidenced by actually doing it. SO that bolsters an argument that I can do that in other areas.

Why and what. You said it about self-esteem. Funny… I am saying that about the whole enchilada. What am I doing about self-esteem…??? What did you do? What is something that equates to doing something?? That would be great info. Please let me know.

P/A behavior is entitlement. It is keeping anger under cover and then letting it out sideways in deliberately hurtful ways. Nothing says I’m mad at you like betrayal, eh?

I do know that if I worked on the self-esteem thing, Frozen would be more apt to trust me. Because I would be less dangerous. And then because I am less dangerous, intimacy could be born. And built. So again, please let me know what you have on self-esteem building exercises. Things that worked for you.

Katie Mae,
Why this question now? Because recovery has not happened and I am resolved to not give up. We started counseling with steve and his plan calls for these steps. That is why.

Why do you smell a rat? Because of personal exploration? Because I am trying to do something in the name of recovery and healing? Or is it the over 2 year issue? Thanks for the reminder though… I am fully aware that if there is something I need to let out, it need to come out. So that’s why I am not holding back in discussing this issue. You get to see the really ugly patriot. All of you do. It isn’t pretty.

To say you do the work or you don’t is not very insightful. Not that I mean to be offensive, but you say you are recovered for almost 2 years and yet dday was not 2 years ago. How did you do that? What did you do? Did confessing instead of getting caught do that? I really am curious about that, but I guess it won’t help me in my situation.

Jean36.
Wow. Pretty big of you to expose yourself like that. What are you going to do? There are obviously lots of folks around here you could talk to. Maybe that would help? Maybe not… anyway… I just thought it was a big thing to say what you said. Just letting you know.

Ark^^,
Straightforward. Thanks for saying it. I agree that I did it because I could. The root of that is choice. I chose to. The rest is just details. But analyzing can be good as well. And it is what frozen would prefer. I want to help her feel safe. I want to know about me.

I want to not do this again. I am certain I won’t. I want her to be certain I won’t

Frognomore,

Very good line. I like it very much. Standards is also a good word to pin some things on to carry around.

MEDC,
I disagree with you. The way you describe it, simply because I had integrity hauled around with me like luggage, I would find it impossible to have an affair. That certainly does not take into account a persons choice. No one is above anything. They just choose not to do it. That is my stance. And I imagine you disagree with me given your post. But I do appreciate you taking the time

Schoolbus,
I don’t think I was interested in starting over. It was way more juvenile and shallow. Just flirting and sex. Never plans to run off. Never I love you. Never anything like that. I fact, I sated more than once that she and I would not last forever. I stated it was finite to her. Considering that, I certainly did not have any emotional walls down with OW. In fact, because it was no emotion situation, that is why I liked it….

Hmmm..

Shallow, meaningless relationships. I have had a huge string of them. If you never let down a wall, you can never be hurt.

Thanks. This idea is important and links directly into other issues I have had in this and other relationships. No emotion and no commitment.

Freeloader. First class.

Weaver,
I think immaturity was a factor. Just like self-esteem. And other issues. But to simply chalk it up to immaturity seems a gross oversight to me. I imagine my wife will think I am kissing [censored]… you know… being the WS that wants to explore every facet of this for her… fade music… but really that just doesn’t satisfy me as a full explanation.

I do think, however that it is a large part.

Frog


Now that is something to consider. Hmmm… I’ll be back to you on that….

Weaver,
You post reminded me of a saying.

Good decisions come from good judgment, and that normally comes from bad decisions.

Stick your finger in the light socket and I bet you learn some good judgment about what to do next time.

Owl,
Certainly responsibility can not be removed from me for this. I am looking in to this to learn something and aid our recovery. It is not a way to slide past this step and move onto “I did that already” land.

TA,

Why didn’t I NOT have an affair? Wow.. a great question. Had my shaking the north-south on that one. You’re right though… finding these missing pieces is going to be a challenge I bet.

Thanks for all the responses. I wanted to respond to them all… and I have a few things I want to look at and get back with.

Patriot,

You asked and I gave my POV. I try to keep it simple. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All the other aspects of it that begin to individualize what made the A can built on the central fact that the A is based on a selfish virus. Very inhumane and so not of our original makeup. The scary piece is this lack of self control was foretold and to see it grow as it has in our time is spooky.

Parents will leave their children along with their spouses to further the A. How logical is that? It isn't.

Just don't get lost in the analysis of it. Realize it as a bad experience for which if your W has forgiven you, then you now need to forgive yourself and move forward. It doesn't mean you will forget but you can move forward. As a result you c/b a champion for how to appreciate and cherish what you have. How you will make that conscientious effort NOT to forget what you almost lost.

In time you will catch up to where Froz is and together you can begin to move forward.

Start peddling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Pat,


"The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. It's a very quick, easy read. Please let me know what you think. ETA: It's not a book about "self-esteem" per se... but I think it does an excellent job of explaining how people develop self-limiting thought patterns and negative self-images... and offers a simple (though not necessarily easy) way to change your perspective about yourself (and others). And as a bonus.. it can help you to shed the fear that if you get too close to someone, you might get hurt by them. I do hope you'll check it out.



Thanks. You've given me somthing to think about here.

You didn't answer my questions about selfishness.

--SC

Patriot,
Thanks. One thing I know I won't do is commit adultery again. Just like the drinking, I know it doesn't fix my problem. Maybe it is not as important to know why we did it. Maybe we need to know why we will never do it again. And for me, the spiritual bottom I hit as an adulteress was a feeling I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

That is why I think real FWS make great partners. If they are truly remorseful, I would see little chance of a repeat betrayal.

Patriot,

I haven't posted here in QUITE some time, and I rarely if ever get to even browse, but I really wanted to reply to your post.

I'm the former BS and my H is the former WS.

We could have spent many years to come "speculating" why he had an A.

In our SPECIFIC case, my H doesn't have character flaws, he's not selfish, he's not immature, he's my H.

The very very bottom line...is that we did not know how to AFFAIR PROOF our marriage.

Obviously...anyone posting on MB... didn't know either.

NOW... we do.

Marriage can be complicated, and difficult.

Now...with the knowledge and experience behind us... we absolutely know how to AFFAIR PROOF our marriage.

I am thrilled to pieces that we made it through that very difficult time.

I love my H deeply, I have forgiven him completely, and I trust him with my heart once again.

He's not, and has never been damaged ...he made a mistake...a horrible betrayal which was not a reflection on either of us.

I hope you find the answers if you need to.

We never did, but we know how to prevent it from ever happening again...and that's far more important to me ...than the speculation of why.

Best of luck to you both.


I don't even know how long I've been in recovery... I can't even remember the year of DDay...I guess I'd have to look at my signature line or something.

It's been several years now.

I wasn't trying to sound flippant or over generalize by stating that the choice to be dishonest/cheat comes from immaturity. It seems to me that that would be the underlying cause of all the reasons people give, which by the way probably are as many as their are people.

I do much better with Solutions Focused Therapy, so the self analysis to me seems like something that one wouldn't need to spend too much time on, because you are still going to have to come up with the solutions for changing behavioral patterns.

I do agree with the posters above stating the important thing is to know why you will never do it again.

It could be as simple as you were a free-loader and became a buyer once DD occured and you realized that you did want to be committed to frozen and nothing would be worth losing her for.

I wonder if frozen is having such a rough time being able to trust you again because the cheating happened so early in your R. She has no real guage of who you are or what kind of a person you are because you had not been married for a long time before the cheating. She doesn't know if it is out of character for you or if it is your character.

My ex had lied to me from the getgo, and I having no clue whatsoever, became a real mess afterwards. It took a long time for me to be able to trust my own perceptions, I mean I was really effed up for a long time. I questioned my own judgement on everything after that, at times I really thought I was nuts.

It may be more difficult to regain trust, or to lose the fear when it happens at the onset before you really know who each other are. Maybe she doesn't know if it was the fog or if it is a weakness you will always have.

I agree with Jean about the FWS being so clear on their own weakness's and having really thought hard about what they needed to have in place because of those weakness's that they probably are a lot better bet than someone who has never given it any thought.

Maybe this self-analysis is so you can identify where you need to have boundaries in place, in that case I can see why Harley recommended it.

I sure do feel bad that you two are having trouble. You've worked hard on this marriage and I hope soon it can become a source of joy.

Frozen, if you are reading I wanted to let you know that in my case with my ex, I had to learn to trust myself, that I was strong enough to be able to handle someone cheating on me again, that I could trust my own instincts...and most of all that it wasn't my fault that I didn't know and that I fell in love with someone who was cheating. I simply didn't know him, and therefore could not have known he was a liar. Not that Patriot is, but my ex was. And I do understand how difficult it must be.

I'm getting married soon, and it is hard at times and this is a different guy. Trust has been very difficult for me but I place a lot of trust in myself. I know I can handle anything now, and I know I won't be a fool. I also plan on practicing the Harley ideas for having a great marriage. This helps me in being able to trust in myself and have hope that a good marriage is possible, and even likely.

Sorry for the ramble.

Oh, you nitpicker! Okay, I've been in recovery for one year, eleven months and ten days or something. I said almost two years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry if saying "you either do the work or you don't" doesn't seem insightful... I guess for me, knowing the reason why is the first step in fixing the problem. It helps you formulate a plan. For example, last year I was trying to cut down on sugar. However, I found myself at the candy cabinet at work several times a week, even when I knew I shouldn't be there and mentally didn't want to be. I was just "starving" and "needed some chocolate." No I wasn't!

It was all emotional. I started really thinking about it (questioning why) and discovered a pattern in my behavior... I was going to the candy cabinet after working with a particularly stressful group of kids (I work in a school). It was after lunch, so I obviously wasn't hungry. But emotionally I felt like I was "starving" and chocolate was the only thing that could help. Once I discovered the WHY of my problem, I could address the behavior. My solution was to make some tea and do a couple of relaxation exercises instead, and I was fine from then on. I didn't need the chocolate anymore.

I don't know if confessing helped my situation or not. I honestly thought my H was going to kick me to the curb, and that's what I prepared for. Maybe because he wanted to stay with me... to work on things... it helped me. My first question was always why... even when I was active in my A I was asking the question... WHY am I doing this? And afterwards... WHY did this happen? WHY did I behave this way? WHY is my husband still with me? Why, why, why?

I've spent a lot of time in IC, reading self-help books and journaling, figuring out the answers to these questions. When you do the work to know the why, you can make plans and create boundaries that protect both yourself and your M.

I guess that's where the rat comment came from. From my experience, the why has always been the first step. I'm sorry if it came across harshly. I just find it difficult to understand how anyone could be in recovery without asking the question... if there is no self-reflection, there is no healing. And without healing, there is no self-protection and no real, intrinsic reason to safeguard yourself and your M.

I'm glad you're asking the question now.

Me too, KM. But don't forget... Patriot's a guy... and I suspect a "guy's guy". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes takes a little more time and effort to get those tough nuts to crack open enough to do much self reflcetion, KWIM? (Hope that didn't insult you, Pat).

I agree with everything you wrote in your last post about the importance of understanding "why" so you can effectively address it.

I just want to add one thing to this...


You and a number of other posters have talked about knowing weaknesses, creating boundaries, and protecting the marriage. I agree... but I wouldn't stop there.

I think it's much more beneficial in the long run not to just build fences around your weaknesses... but to fix them, ya know?

For example... I now understand that a combination of circumstances in my past left me: (1) Sexualized too early/over sexualized. (2) Needy of male attention (3) Low on self-worth. Pretty dangerous combo.

Now... I can create all sorts of boundaries and rules of behavior to guard against that combination of weaknesses. (Like join a convent, for example <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />). Or I can do the REAL work to bump up my self-worth and get a grip on my sexuality so that I'm not so needy of male attention... and not so likely to act like a starving woman being offered a gourmet meal when that attention is offered.

To me, the second choice seems like a better and safer bet for both personal and marital recovery.

--SC

Exactly. And for me it meant adding another step inbetween (not having positive role models in my life) of studying women who were succesful in their lives and marriages. And I do mean studying.

I also had to throw a step in there of first determing the kind of person I wanted to be and what I wanted my life to look like.

I liked what you said about now in your marriage you let each grow and change, and just be who you are or you want to be. This is very important, and it was a huge part in my choice of who I am going to marry.

Some people are threatened by any change in the other, and I know that in the fifty ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) years I have ahead of me, there will be lots of changes in me. At least I sure hope there is. And I hope I will allow him to change and grow and always be who he wants to be.

Patriot,

I don't have anything to contribute. Just wanted to highlight this quote of yours because it not only cracked me up (yes, I actually cackled out loud)...it really says something...very much resonated with me...and your phrasing is marvelous:



Thank you very much.

LA

You may not have had the intent to offend me or disrespect me, but I want to let you know that I find this comment to be VERY offensive and disrespectful towards me.

I don't find it useful, constructive or necessary for you to flatter my husband's masculinity and follow it up by cyber-winking at him, nor do I find it helpful to offer him an excuse for Freeloading behavior during Recovery by basically saying "Well, you're just a guy. If you weren't so MANLY, it probably would have been easier for you...WINK WINK/BATTING EYELASHES."

Kindly refrain from responses such as these in the future.

Frozen I may be wrong but I think that SC meant that Patriot was a "guy's guy" in that he's out of touch with his emotions and feelings and not very self aware. I'm sure I've heard Patriot say the same thing himself.

I certainly didn't take it as meaning he had an "out" because he was a man. Quite the opposite - I took it as meaning he needed to get over being the "man" and that men like him are particularly hard to get through to. I think that by looking at the "why", he is attempting to do that which, I imagine is a completely foreign concept to him.

I don't mean that nastily in any way, Patriot - I think it's very commendable of you to do this because it IS so foreign to you.

Patriot,

See your W's response to Smartcookie?

You are not making her feel safe. She takes Smartcookie's response as flattery, which is a reflection on you. It means you are not doing what you can to make her trust you.

What have you been doing to make your W feel safe, and if you haven't been doing a good job, how are you going to change it?

KM