Marriage Builders
Posted By: patriot92 Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 03:42 AM
I want to explore this topic openly and discuss the why. We have been counseling with Steve recently and after a long tie of trying my own plan on recovery, I am going to try Steve's.

Step one, Why.

What is the real reason. That is what I want to get to. The why.

My situation with frozen is unlike most around here. We were not married but we were living together when I was seeing OW. Frozen found out and one month we later we got married. So, as in most situations, we didn't have a marriage of sometime that had cooled on areas and then, because I saw that as some need being left unmet, I ran off.

I want to be able to answer the question why. Why did I have an affair?

So I am asking for some analyzers and FWSs to come help me figure it out. Possibly why you or your spouse had an affair would help me out. Maybe you could ask me some questions to help me out.

Please help me in this because I want to accomplish this step. Frozen needs it for healing and I want her to have it.

So, from the level I am at right now, the why exists in this form.

I was working in a hostile work environment. Many unprofessional behaviors were acceptable in the workplace. Flirting, crude joking and so on. I allowed myself to stay there. I have low self-esteem and a woman interested in me to the point of having sex with me was seen by me as a boost for that. Passive agression was/is a problem also. I have, for a long time, kept anger inside about things, and then events unrelated to the item making me angry are receivers of my anger. Also, intimate relationships with women are intimidating and so I have used deception, independant behavior and judgments to coerce what I want out of Frozen. Or tried. Relationships were seen as objects to use, not entities to cherish and grow. Selfishness in that I have only worried about what I wanted at the moment and not what others needed or wanted.

That is what I have so far. Please help me work this out into a deeper more meaningful why. One that addresses the issues about me.

I will add that this is the first step in Steve's plan and I am trying to get it accomplished. He gave me a phrase I am trying to achieve. So I need to get there.

if you wish to email me, my email is patriot92@gmail.com

Thanks.

I am going to review the "how affairs start" chapter in SAA and dig around on the internet a little as well.
Posted By: believer Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 04:01 AM
So after being here 2 and a half years and counseling with the Harleys you are finally getting around to Step 1 - the why?

I don't want to be negative, Patriot, but I have to tell you, one reason I'm glad I'm DIVORCED is because all of the recovering didn't have to drag on and on and on until WH finally figured out why.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 04:11 AM
Well that is very useful Believer.

I think it's a valuable undertaking Patriot.
Posted By: believer Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 04:12 AM
Thanks Big K.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 04:24 AM
believer,
I have to tell you that your post was negative. And I guess lucky for me, I wasn't your WH.

Nothing will change the weaknesses I have until I address them. And maybe then, the only thing I can do is defend against them and not remove them.

So interested in helping out? Or not? Really the only thing you have to lose is wear and tear on your keyboard and time.

I agree with you though. I should have completed much more than I have already. Doing it my way was not the right way at all.

And honestly, Frozen might divorce me anyway. God knows everyone here would support it I am sure and tell her that if it took me 2 and a half years to begin anything, then I was certainly not worth the wait.

I'm probably not. But she is still married to me. And I am still going to work at this.

So... in or out? Because I have work to do.
Posted By: believer Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 04:49 AM
Well, you must be worth the wait, because she is still there.

You know, I like you. Something about you is very compelling. So if you really want to work on the why, count me in. But please leave out the stuff about a hostile work environment. I've worked my whole life in those, and remained faithful.

Since you have ruled out your emotional needs not being met, I think it probably has more to do with your self esteem.

Frank Pittman says that affairs happen just as often in happy relationships and marriages as in unhappy ones.

I know with my ex, the problem was his self esteem. He confessed to me very early in the marriage that he had poor self esteem. You would never know it. He was a good man, nice looking, had all the people skills, was competent, a good worker, and everything going for him.

But he had a hole in his heart.
Posted By: Orchid Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 04:51 AM
Patriot,

U ask a valid question. It sure takes time to realize then know how to move forward, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Glad u r dealing with this matter.

As to the reason, IMHO those who allow themselves to succumb to having an A is primarily due to selfish tendencies. Whether it is also linked to lack of purpose and self-esteem may also be a factor. Nonetheless, the general rule that causes some to progress worse than others is the selfish attitude and need to control.

The core or seat of motivation is when we allow our sense of reason to be lost and allow our minds and hearts to wander. You may have noticed that the very things the WS' accuse BS and family of doing is exactly what they themselves are doing. Yet the Ws' learn to spin it so well.

The scary piece is the babble and steps leading to and through the A are sooo telling. Some of us here are quite good at almost predicting what a WS will say or do. Is it because we are psychic? Nope.....just seen it too many times. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Sad but true.

Whether you come from a healthy or unhealthy background, rich or poor, happy or sad, pampered or abused.....doesn't really show a pattern, what does show is once that bug bites and we allow it fester, the withdrawal becomes intense and for some fatal to the M and family.

So Patriot, don't try to analyze it too much. You and Froz both need closure. The best kind of closure is one where you both participate in helping each other.

Froz will ask until her trust is rebuilt. She must. You will live in the fear of slipping back until your trust is rebuilt. Closure will rebuild that trust. Best if u 2 do it together.

Anymore than that and we will have to bop u over the head with our MB 2x4. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All the best,
L.
Posted By: mopey Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 05:34 AM
Better late than never....

Actually, everyone that has posted has made good points.

Since talking to my H, I have come up with this.....

Weaknesses in holding to your values, to the point of letting yourself distort your values. So you have to ask, what are your values and what are your weaknesses?

Values? Did you think cheating on Frozen was ok then? Probably not. Know what your values are so you have them etched in your brain so there's no guessing later. I'm guessing you didn't "value" fidelity back then. And if you did, you let your weaknesses convince you that it was ok.

Weaknesses? Instead of fixing or leaving your relationship, which takes courage and work, you allowed yourself to alter your values and beliefs to get your needs met, selfishly, at the expense of another.

Dishonesty is a weakness. You altered Frozen's perception of your relationship by lying to her, and controlling her with those lies. Because you couldn't be truthful with yourself or her.

Not being able to be intimate with Frozen enough to communicate your needs and complaints? My H is also P/A and a conflict avoider. You need to put your pride and your fears aside and show Frozen who you really are, what you fear, what you need, and what you dislike, what you're ashamed of, everything.....in a loving and non-defensive manner, and learning to accept her feelings about it. Are you afraid for her to know the real you? Does this sound close?

You allowed someone else to meet your needs to boost your self esteem. You need to do things for yourself, that are valuable, to build up your own self esteem. It's not up to Frozen or any woman to do that for you. Could this be a part of it? How much admiration and acceptance did you get from the OW? Was it deserved?

I'm still trying to figure out why my H had such a huge entitlement streak in him though. Why he thought he was above reproach. I hope he can answer that one for me one day.


Learn what your core values are, and try to look back and see how you changed your beliefs to justify what you knew was wrong and selfish.

Good luck. This is a very interesting and helpful thread for all.

(Hi Froz! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
Posted By: BringItOn Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 11:37 AM
"You allowed someone else to meet your needs to boost your self esteem. You need to do things for yourself, that are valuable, to build up your own self esteem. It's not up to Frozen or any woman to do that for you. Could this be a part of it? How much admiration and acceptance did you get from the OW? Was it deserved?"

I think Mopey is right on the money here. You got a "false boost" to your self esteem which, in reality, lowered your true sense of self esteem. I read a quote by Max Lucado a couple of weeks ago. It was comparing sin to salt water. Salt water (like sin) can quench your thirst for a short time, but then makes you thirstier and needing more to quench it again and again until you're dead (as the salt (sin) acts as a poison).

The only thing that can truly quench your thirst is pure water (or Christ if you're a Christian...sorry if you're not).
Posted By: Principled Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 12:07 PM
I haven't read all your posts but from this one it sounds like you weren't getting admiration from Frozen to help boost that low self-esteem. Did you get that from the OW? Sounds like it stroked your ego just to find that another woman was interested in having sex with you.

What were you trying to get with all those LBs? Sounds like they might represent unfulfilled needs too.

Do the emotional needs questionnaire in the context of your feelings at around the time you had the affair. See if the results match.

You may be trying to look too deep into this. Maybe it isn't that complicated. Like Harley says, you become vulnerable to an affair because some important emotional needs are going unmet by your marriage. It's really that simple.

Sounds like you really want to work on your marriage with Frozen at last. That's really good even if it has taken so long. Be thankful she's still there!

Have you thought that you might not have been doing a good job meeting her emotional needs too? Do you know what they are?

I wish that my spouse wanted to work on our relationship like you seem to do.

Good luck!
Posted By: smartcookie Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 12:39 PM
Pat,

I'd like to offer you a word of caution as you undertake this endevor -- Only YOU can answer this question for yourself. It's all well and good to ask for input, and kick around ideas, but don't take any shortcuts. Be careful not to accept other's ideas if they don't ring true for you. Likewise, be careful not to let others dismiss anything you truly believe to be a factor. KWIM?

So let's kick around what you've said so far:

Quote
I was working in a hostile work environment. Many unprofessional behaviors were acceptable in the workplace. Flirting, crude joking and so on. I allowed myself to stay there.


As Believer alluded to, a lot of people work in hostile or inappropriate environments, but don't cheat. HOWEVER, I think it's valuable that you have identified this factor, b/c your environment apparently exploited your weaknesses. So until you've gotten a better handle on those weaknesses, I'd think it would be best to remove yourself from that kind of environment.

Also, if you are (or were) unduely influenced by your environment/those around you... what does that say about your boundaries? A little weak maybe? Worth some thought.

Quote
I have low self-esteem and a woman interested in me to the point of having sex with me was seen by me as a boost for that.


This was a big factor for me too, maybe the biggest. And it seems to be a very common denominator among we W's. The good news about low self-esteem, IMO, is that it's not a life sentence. With some work, it can be improved. So the question is: WHY do you have low self esteem? and what are you going to do about it?

Quote
Passive agression was/is a problem also. I have, for a long time, kept anger inside about things, and then events unrelated to the item making me angry are receivers of my anger.


I'm not sure I understand. I can see how this would be a problem in your relationships in general, but how did this contribute to the decision to have/continue an affair?

Quote
Also, intimate relationships with women are intimidating and so I have used deception, independant behavior and judgments to coerce what I want out of Frozen. Or tried. Relationships were seen as objects to use, not entities to cherish and grow.

I think if you work on the self-esteem thing, the intimacy thing may fall into place. If you feel better about yourself, you won't be so afraid to be open with Froz. JMO.


Quote
Selfishness in that I have only worried about what I wanted at the moment and not what others needed or wanted.


Obviously, an affair is an inherantly selfish act. But I do not agree that everyone who has an affair is an inherantly selfish person. We all have "takers" in us. Sometimes, the very act of trying to supress your taker for too long can make you vulnerable to an affair (or other inappropriate method of getting what you want/need). Would you say that you are generally a selfish person, Pat? If you are, why? Why do you feel the need to put your own interests first? What are you afraid of? (I believe this may be another area that will sort-of fix itself if you work on the self-esteem. In my experience, it's the people who love and value themselves the most... who are most able to give to others from the heart).

--SC
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 01:06 PM
wanted to let you know I have read these things, but I have to respond to them later.
Posted By: Katie_Mae Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 01:21 PM
Patriot,

What made you recently start counseling with the Harleys? Have you done something to make Frozen feel unsafe?

I'm a FWW, and my husband and I have been recovered for almost two years now. I know why I had an affair, but my reason doesn't matter. I've worked very hard on building my character and protecting my weaknesses. I've especially worked hard on making my husband feel safe, and creating boundaries so our M will be safe-guarded and protected from now on. Recovery is a conscious choice and you either do the work honestly or you don't.

My H and I were together for eight years before we got married. Two months after our wedding, I cheated on him with OM. So your situation isn't much different than mine... you and I were both freeloaders, married or not.

So my question to you again is... why this question now? As a FWW, I smell a rat. If you're doing something inappropriate, please come clean. It's the only way we can truly help you. It's the only way you can truly help yourself.

Katie
Posted By: Jean36 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 03:10 PM
Why did I have an affair??

Short and less painful answer:
I was in a suicidal depression, was in therapy, probably suffering from post partum depression, then 9/11 happened and I kinda freaked out. Began searching for something and came across my first love. He made me feel warm and fuzzy and safe (safe was a big deal as I was sure the end of times was upon us). In my marriage, there was no money, no sex and husband was loosing patience with my depression. Husband avoided being at home, I was alone with a bunch of little kids (I was babysitting in addition to my own). I needed an escape.

FOM often said he saved my life. He may have, as I was really contemplating how to kill myself and not have the children find me. But really, all FOM did was delay the work that I would have to do eventually.

Longer and more painful answer:
I need an escape, some way out of myself. When I was younger, I drank, but I have been sober for a long time now. So now, since I don't drink, I go from one obsessive escape to another. I have really been putting off looking at myself for my entire adult life.

I have some screw loose that I can't or don't want to fix. I have been procrastinating on a mental break down for years. That is the crux of why I had an affair. It put off the work I need to do on myself. It was a pi$$ poor coping technique. College was a better technigue, the pond that I built was a better technique.

The affair had little to do with my husband or marriage, my marriage had sucked for years before the affair, nothing changed in the period before the affair. I just ran out of diversions.

To me, an affair is much like gambling, drinking, or any other obsessive trait (except that it will destroy the person you are supposed to protect).

So, six years after my affair, I am still at risk for some self destroying behavior-I am just running out of vices. Wow, that is a crappy realization.
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 04:11 PM
I think you did because we call can

we can all rationalize our behaviors and choices

be them

choosing to smoke

choosing to eat things consistantly that are bad

choosing to speak harshly even cruelly to those we love...

having an affair...

we do tons of things...

that are hurtful to others...ourselves...etc...

because we CAN

we all are capable of them...

rarely is the choice made with others feelings and thoughts in mind...
or consequences...

most always they are made with a huge seperation of the choice and the consequence...

our brains are master rationlizers....
sometimes with out any deep dark seeded NEED or childhood scar...or missing something...

sometimes we do things because we in our brains seperate the act from ourselves...

denying that WE ourselves could be deceivers
could be hurtful
could be sexual with others...

that's not us..that someone else even in the midst of these acts...

I don't know patriot ...what makes you so special that you are different...and only acted this way because of some magic factor...missing or active in the old you...

and I say that respectfully and with my well earned respect to you and road you have traveled to get to this point...

but really maybe you did it because you could..cause he could..cause she could..cause I could....cause we all CAN do it...

and did it with only....
the ability to

seperate
rationalize
and
compartalmentalize...

do we
should we
are called to
continue to drown in self annalysis..

or do we open our lives and hearts to the good of God's light...and get on with living...and trying our best minute by minute to be execellent to one another...

ARK
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 05:49 PM
Patriot,

Quote
I was working in a hostile work environment. Many unprofessional behaviors were acceptable in the workplace. Flirting, crude joking and so on.

That may be part of it but not the reason. I am in sales and have been away from home without my FWW on several occasions. Now on one trip there were a couple hundred of us on a tropical island, with alcohol flowing.

To be honest some people cheated on their spouses and others didn't.

I personally had 3 propositions to partake in a little hush hush SF. I declined.

So I wouldn't blame it on the environment. It may have part of it. But I wasn't the only married person not to cheat but there were some that did. One of the girls that propositioned me was married the other two knew I was.

Quote
I have low self-esteem and a woman interested in me to the point of having sex with me was seen by me as a boost for that.

Duh, I mean I don't mean to be harsh but that holds true for most guys. Again I am a fairly attractive man, can hold a conversation, and I have a good sense of humor. Women sometimes are attracted to me. It is an ego boost but I don't need to have sex with them for that to be a boost to my ego.

The fact that they look at me or are interested in me I guess can accomplish that.

If I had sex with one of them that would actually lower my self esteem because I tie that to SELF RESPECT.

On passive/aggressive behavior you should go to recovery and read the PA thread and get help for and correct that behaviour.

That IMVHO is abusive in a relationship.

But in and of itself I doubt that is why as well.

So here is what I would say.

You wanted to.
It was available.
You found a willing partner.
You didn't respect your marriage enought.
You didn't have boundaries in place.
And you Didn't hold yourself to the same standards you would have Held Frozen to.
You weren't open and honest about the relationship in the beginning.
You didn't protect your marriage.

So there are some of the reasons. But mostly selfishness.

It made you feel good so you did it.
Posted By: medc Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 06:10 PM
I agree with Frogs post...to me it all comes down to a lack of character and self respect.
You can be presented with all the options in the world and bottom line is, no matter what you circumstances are at home, character, intergrity and self respect would not allow you to have an affair.
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 06:21 PM
I wonder sometimes if it isn't the fantasy of being able to start over, new, with someone and be whoever you think you want to be with them - to make yourself over - and become what you think you wanted to be all this time, and not be judged as "changing".

Sometimes I want to change and not have anyone say, "Hey, that's not YOU, Schoolbus, YOU always say or do THIS. YOU can't change your mind!" But with someone new, you can - you can be all those things you want to try out, and not have anybody say anything - you can put on the robes of that "new" person inside, and be that person, and try it on for awhile, in secret.

I wonder if that's part of the affair lure?

Did that have a pull for you? That you could be "different" than in your "real" life, and let down that wall with her? Allow those changes that you have felt being made inside of you come out, and allow them to show, and not have to explain them?

Since the affair, my husband says he feels like he doesn't know me anymore - and HE's the one who had the affair. Suddenly, we both find ourselves being more open to the other's changes, more REAL, and allowing those walls to be down all the time. Understanding that change takes place every day.

That today I like blue, but tomorrow, maybe I will like purple.

And both are okay.

SB
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 06:39 PM
Quote
I wonder sometimes if it isn't the fantasy of being able to start over, new, with someone and be whoever you think you want to be with them - to make yourself over - and become what you think you wanted to be all this time, and not be judged as "changing".


I agree this is what is for some, especially couples married for quite some time.

In new marriages or even before marriage I think it might have to do with the fact that we are immature, haven't looked at the big picture or even knew about the big picture. Also we haven't taken he time to define who we are, who we want to be, how we want our lives to look and what kind of person we want to be. Or even that we actually have control over all of it as in we are the writer, the producer and the actor in this play called our life.

I also agree with Ark, about how efficient is self-analysis. Most important of all statements I have ever read is this -

"The most important question you will ever ask yourself is not "who am I" but rather "who do I want to become""

We need to determine this, and act accordingly.

Patriot, I think you were probably just young and not thinking about what you were doing. Chalk it up to immaturity.

Jean, your post hit home in a lot of ways, not in me having an affair but lord knows I did all the other things.

As the very wise Shattered Dreams told me "figure out who you want to be and become that person"
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 06:46 PM
And yes, absolutely self-respect. A lot people don't even know what self-respect is or how incredibly important it is to have.
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 08:10 PM
Quote
"figure out who you want to be and become that person"

I want to be Hugh Hefner!!!!!

Quote
Patriot, I think you were probably just young and not thinking about what you were doing. Chalk it up to immaturity.

WHAT!!!!!!!!! Please do not chalk it up to immaturity.

Maybe ask this. What in you made you wait 2 and a half years to start asking "WHY"

What in you allowed you to do that to Frozen and your M and your Recovery.

That same thing is what allowed you to Have the A!!!
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 08:31 PM
Quote
I want to be Hugh Hefner!!!!!


Gross. You do not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Are you being sarcastic? Do you not think that we can become what ever kind of person we want to become? Do you think we do not determine this, by first figuring out who the person is we want to become?

I know that you changed yourself, you said so in one of your own posts. You must have done it by your own will and actions. I mean who we are is not something that is written in the stars and must forever be. If that were true most of us would be doomed to forever repeat the past.

And I will chalk it up to immaturity because that is exactly what it is. Having an affair is gross immaturity. When we learn better we do better. I have never met a person who was cheating and telling lies that was not immature.

Immature means not fully developed...mentally, spiritually, emotionally.

You can find all the reasons you want but what it all boils down to is not being fully developed.

I have boundaries now because I am mature, I have developed in wisdom enough to know I need them.

I see the big picture now because I am mentally and spiritually developed enough to be able to, and to know that everything I do effects that big picture.

Immature people don't seem to grasp the idea of their actions affecting other people, as well as their own self-respect.

Immature people say cruel things with no thoughts of the effect to others. They smoke with no thought of what they are doing to themselves and to others. They cut people off in traffic with no thoughts to causing accidents. They treat people like dirt with no thought of the domino effect of their actions. And so on and so forth.
Posted By: Owl Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 08:40 PM
Interesting post, Weaver. I agree.

It doesn't EXCUSE their immature behavior. In fact, what it means is that they need to grow the heck up!!! I take it that you're not saying that they're not responsible for their actions...its simply that they were so selfishly immature that they didn't care about the results of their actions.

Like a little child...its all me, me, me!

Good things to think about. Your description of the actions of immature people is pretty thought-provoking as well.

Good post!
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 08:49 PM
Quote
It doesn't EXCUSE their immature behavior. In fact, what it means is that they need to grow the heck up!!! I take it that you're not saying that they're not responsible for their actions...its simply that they were so selfishly immature that they didn't care about the results of their actions.


No, you are right, it is not an excuse, just a fact.

I would bet big dollars that Patriot already knows why he had an affair but having trouble putting it into words.

Using an excuse of being in a hostile environment would be an example of immaturity (not taking responsibility for ones self). If a more mature person were in a hostile environment he would either find a way to thrive in that environment such as the sales person example used above, or find a new job. These are acts of maturity. Having an affair because things are so bad and using a non-positive coping mechanism such as an affair is an act of immaturity.
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 09:10 PM
I'm going to give a couple more examples of why women might have an affair, both of which are because of immaturity.

One is one of my favorite MB's KYyellow, or jelly as she is often called. (I hope she doesn't mind me using her as an example). She had an affair because she is a conflict avoider, she was unable to say no the advances of the OM. conflict avoidance is a form of immaturity, not being able to handle conflict. She did not know that it was not only her responsibility to say no, but that she was harming a lot of people while she thought she was protecting OM's feelings and not making any waves. Does that sound like the thought processes of a mature mind?

For me, I used to not be able to say no either. I either stayed with boyfriends too long or went out with guys in the first place because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. Once I passed the point of not wanting to continue with them, and staying with them because I didn't want to hurt them I would just start dating someone else behind their back. I was a coward and too damn selfish to do the dirty work of ending the relationship. Wanted them to do it for me and then I wouldn't have to hurt their feelings.

Well how frigging immature is that?

The only thing that cured me my sister telling me one day I was going to go to h*ll for my selfishness. And I didn't change because I was afraid of h*ll because I didn't believe in such a place after death (still don't), but because someone thought so little of me to say such a thing. I disgusted her. That was all it took for me to grow up and start to say no when I didn't want to and end it when I wanted to if I did date them.

Young girls often mistake the notion of not hurting someone else feelings by saying no, and then hurting them very badly by saying yes. How immature.
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 09:15 PM
Quote
Are you being sarcastic? Do you not think that we can become what ever kind of person we want to become? Do you think we do not determine this, by first figuring out who the person is we want to become?

No I don't want to be Huge.

In a sense yes but no. Yes we can visualize what we want to be in the future. The kind of person we want to be but we may not have the tools to be that type of person.

Some changes are not possible to make on your own or even with help.

I read a very interesting book called "Now discover your strengths." It identifies your top 5 strengths but says it is hard to change those. Your best bet is to make those stronger.

It is hard to change form a thinker to a feeler. So I can visualize being a good person that does the right thing but not necessarily the underlying things.

As far as the IMMATURATY I will have to disagree with that.

I think that very mature, grown up people have affairs.

I think if there was anything I could say is a underlying common thread in WS is Selfishness.

Selfish people are not always immature.

Oh and you are correct I did change.

But first I had to realize those problems existed.

The WHY if you will. If I would have chalked that up to immaturity I wouldn't be where I am now.
Posted By: TogetherAlone Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/02/07 09:28 PM
I wonder if the question 'Why did I have an affair?' is really a way of saying 'Why didn't I not have an affair?', if you'll excuse the double negative.

It strikes me that if someone doesn't have mature coping skills, and does have weak boundaries, and has developed a fragile values system, then the chances are that they look at people who do have those things with incomprehension.

Thye can see that others do things differently, but they haven't a clue how they achieve it.

That's the real challenge - to work out what's missing and acquire it.

(And people who acquired all the skills growing up, because of the circumstances of their particular personality and environment, are equally confounded by those who don't have the skills.)

TA
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 03:39 AM
Orchid said
Quote
U ask a valid question. It sure takes time to realize then know how to move forward, eh?

Some more than others it seems.

In reading your post, I know that selfishness is a part of my why, but I am curious if there is more to that. Selfishness mixed with what? Evilness? Desire to get sex? Desire to hurt someone? I know that I didn’t set out to deliberately hurt Frozen. Meaning I did not sit up late at night and plan this misadventure in order to destroy her.

Killing her was not my goal. But I certainly did not care all that much about her. I mean I was far more interested in not getting caught than stopping because she didn’t deserve to be hurt in that way.

Why? What else could be there??

Of course WSs spin things well. Anyone trying to hide something learns how to deceive to continue hiding it. Some are better than others. Lying is not a tool of the wayward, but a tool of anyone hiding something they are ashamed of. I am certain that countless people have lied to hide something and on the other hand are a BS in this very forum. So… lying is not only for the wayward…

Analyzing too much is probably going to be a problem. Frozen analyzes a ton. I have begun to as well… but what is this closure your talking about. How do you get it?? Really…that sounds like something to possibly try and find. Along with everything else.

Mopey,
Not protecting one’s weaknesses is straight out of the Harley manual. The love bank must be protected from others besides your spouse and if not, then you are exposing your weaknesses and will fall. What are my values? That is a great question. I will answer it explicitly after I have had time to formulate something intelligent. So expect something more on that. I really want to explore that and establish values of a strong character.

P/A and conflict avoider… that’s me with her. I am not that way for the most part with anyone else. I know that is linked to my childhood and dealings with my step mother. I learned and became so strong at hiding myself from her because I was not deemed acceptable. That story could go on for a while, but I know exactly where my P/A and conflict avoiding behavior begins. So, the best option I have dome up with in dealing with that is vigilance in remembering that she is not my mother, nor my enemy. I need something more I think… because vigilance is just sheer will… really. A stronger plan would be nice, if it could be developed.

Your husband probably never thought he was above reproach. In fact, he probably had way more effort and thinking spent on the fantasy itself and worry about getting caught. Mix in addiction and you got a real problem on your hands that really had no logical solution. Or so it looks.

Bringiton,
You are completely right.
Quote
You got a "false boost" to your self esteem which, in reality, lowered your true sense of self esteem.
First mopey highlights the fact that the person that has to build me up is me. And I agree. Then you add that first expecting someone else to build up my self esteem was a bad idea. Then, a method I choose to do it was actually destructive to the very thing I was trying to build.

I have to tell you, this is a recurring theme with me. Wanting X. Doing Y to get X. Come to find out, Y is precisely the way to NOT get X. Story of my emotional life. That issue is caused by self-protection. False self-protection. Keeping people out will ensure they don’t hurt me. That has been my thought for a long time. Being vulnerable in a relationship is something only frozen as every gotten to see with me. I need lots of practice still, but it is important to be reminded of what you said. Self-esteem isn’t admiration. It is my concept of me. Not other convincing me of how ‘X’ I am. It is me defining me.

Mindwarped,
Yes it stroked my ego. And ego stroking mixed with low self-esteem is a loaded gun. Do the ENQ in the context of my mind then? (eyes open wide) How do I do that? Would that even help?? Also, after so much time, things are very cloudy about how I felt then. I often feel like I was just evil and stupid. I know I thought I was cool. What an immature joke. I could bag some ****** at work and I thought I was cool… sad.

It is the lottery that she is still here, really. Very lucky.

Smartcookie,
Warning noted. Hostile work environment is really only low self esteem mixed with peer-pressure like behaviors. Something goes on that I don’t like. It isn’t like they were screaming lewd jokes and playing grab-[censored] in the hall. But flirting and other seemingly meaningless things happened. But it gets the mind working. Thinking. Wondering. And then you don’t think very highly of yourself and people make it seem like you are cool when you tell jokes.. or make remarks… or flirt. I just shook my head. How so very junior high this sounds…

I am not unduly influenced by the environment now because I learned something in all of this. Nothing in this world makes me feel better about myself than upholding my oaths and promises. So first I must not enter into them lightly. And then I must uphold them. Like I have upheld my oath to the military for over 16 years. Like I have upheld my oath to my country. I have the ability to do it as evidenced by actually doing it. SO that bolsters an argument that I can do that in other areas.

Why and what. You said it about self-esteem. Funny… I am saying that about the whole enchilada. What am I doing about self-esteem…??? What did you do? What is something that equates to doing something?? That would be great info. Please let me know.

P/A behavior is entitlement. It is keeping anger under cover and then letting it out sideways in deliberately hurtful ways. Nothing says I’m mad at you like betrayal, eh?

I do know that if I worked on the self-esteem thing, Frozen would be more apt to trust me. Because I would be less dangerous. And then because I am less dangerous, intimacy could be born. And built. So again, please let me know what you have on self-esteem building exercises. Things that worked for you.

Katie Mae,
Why this question now? Because recovery has not happened and I am resolved to not give up. We started counseling with steve and his plan calls for these steps. That is why.

Why do you smell a rat? Because of personal exploration? Because I am trying to do something in the name of recovery and healing? Or is it the over 2 year issue? Thanks for the reminder though… I am fully aware that if there is something I need to let out, it need to come out. So that’s why I am not holding back in discussing this issue. You get to see the really ugly patriot. All of you do. It isn’t pretty.

To say you do the work or you don’t is not very insightful. Not that I mean to be offensive, but you say you are recovered for almost 2 years and yet dday was not 2 years ago. How did you do that? What did you do? Did confessing instead of getting caught do that? I really am curious about that, but I guess it won’t help me in my situation.

Jean36.
Wow. Pretty big of you to expose yourself like that. What are you going to do? There are obviously lots of folks around here you could talk to. Maybe that would help? Maybe not… anyway… I just thought it was a big thing to say what you said. Just letting you know.

Ark^^,
Straightforward. Thanks for saying it. I agree that I did it because I could. The root of that is choice. I chose to. The rest is just details. But analyzing can be good as well. And it is what frozen would prefer. I want to help her feel safe. I want to know about me.

I want to not do this again. I am certain I won’t. I want her to be certain I won’t

Frognomore,

Quote
If I had sex with one of them that would actually lower my self esteem because I tie that to SELF RESPECT.
Very good line. I like it very much. Standards is also a good word to pin some things on to carry around.

MEDC,
I disagree with you. The way you describe it, simply because I had integrity hauled around with me like luggage, I would find it impossible to have an affair. That certainly does not take into account a persons choice. No one is above anything. They just choose not to do it. That is my stance. And I imagine you disagree with me given your post. But I do appreciate you taking the time

Schoolbus,
I don’t think I was interested in starting over. It was way more juvenile and shallow. Just flirting and sex. Never plans to run off. Never I love you. Never anything like that. I fact, I sated more than once that she and I would not last forever. I stated it was finite to her. Considering that, I certainly did not have any emotional walls down with OW. In fact, because it was no emotion situation, that is why I liked it….

Hmmm..

Shallow, meaningless relationships. I have had a huge string of them. If you never let down a wall, you can never be hurt.

Thanks. This idea is important and links directly into other issues I have had in this and other relationships. No emotion and no commitment.

Freeloader. First class.

Weaver,
I think immaturity was a factor. Just like self-esteem. And other issues. But to simply chalk it up to immaturity seems a gross oversight to me. I imagine my wife will think I am kissing [censored]… you know… being the WS that wants to explore every facet of this for her… fade music… but really that just doesn’t satisfy me as a full explanation.

I do think, however that it is a large part.

Frog

Quote
Maybe ask this. What in you made you wait 2 and a half years to start asking "WHY"

What in you allowed you to do that to Frozen and your M and your Recovery.

That same thing is what allowed you to Have the A!!!

Now that is something to consider. Hmmm… I’ll be back to you on that….

Weaver,
You post reminded me of a saying.

Good decisions come from good judgment, and that normally comes from bad decisions.

Stick your finger in the light socket and I bet you learn some good judgment about what to do next time.

Owl,
Certainly responsibility can not be removed from me for this. I am looking in to this to learn something and aid our recovery. It is not a way to slide past this step and move onto “I did that already” land.

TA,

Why didn’t I NOT have an affair? Wow.. a great question. Had my shaking the north-south on that one. You’re right though… finding these missing pieces is going to be a challenge I bet.

Thanks for all the responses. I wanted to respond to them all… and I have a few things I want to look at and get back with.
Posted By: Orchid Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 07:23 AM
Quote
Orchid said
Quote
U ask a valid question. It sure takes time to realize then know how to move forward, eh?

Some more than others it seems.

In reading your post, I know that selfishness is a part of my why, but I am curious if there is more to that. Selfishness mixed with what? Evilness? Desire to get sex? Desire to hurt someone? I know that I didn’t set out to deliberately hurt Frozen. Meaning I did not sit up late at night and plan this misadventure in order to destroy her.

Killing her was not my goal. But I certainly did not care all that much about her. I mean I was far more interested in not getting caught than stopping because she didn’t deserve to be hurt in that way.

Why? What else could be there??

Of course WSs spin things well. Anyone trying to hide something learns how to deceive to continue hiding it. Some are better than others. Lying is not a tool of the wayward, but a tool of anyone hiding something they are ashamed of. I am certain that countless people have lied to hide something and on the other hand are a BS in this very forum. So… lying is not only for the wayward…

Analyzing too much is probably going to be a problem. Frozen analyzes a ton. I have begun to as well… but what is this closure your talking about. How do you get it?? Really…that sounds like something to possibly try and find. Along with everything else.

Patriot,

You asked and I gave my POV. I try to keep it simple. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All the other aspects of it that begin to individualize what made the A can built on the central fact that the A is based on a selfish virus. Very inhumane and so not of our original makeup. The scary piece is this lack of self control was foretold and to see it grow as it has in our time is spooky.

Parents will leave their children along with their spouses to further the A. How logical is that? It isn't.

Just don't get lost in the analysis of it. Realize it as a bad experience for which if your W has forgiven you, then you now need to forgive yourself and move forward. It doesn't mean you will forget but you can move forward. As a result you c/b a champion for how to appreciate and cherish what you have. How you will make that conscientious effort NOT to forget what you almost lost.

In time you will catch up to where Froz is and together you can begin to move forward.

Start peddling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.
Posted By: smartcookie Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 07:47 AM
Pat,

Quote
What am I doing about self-esteem…??? What did you do? What is something that equates to doing something?? That would be great info. Please let me know.

"The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. It's a very quick, easy read. Please let me know what you think. ETA: It's not a book about "self-esteem" per se... but I think it does an excellent job of explaining how people develop self-limiting thought patterns and negative self-images... and offers a simple (though not necessarily easy) way to change your perspective about yourself (and others). And as a bonus.. it can help you to shed the fear that if you get too close to someone, you might get hurt by them. I do hope you'll check it out.

Quote
P/A behavior is entitlement. It is keeping anger under cover and then letting it out sideways in deliberately hurtful ways. Nothing says I’m mad at you like betrayal, eh?


Thanks. You've given me somthing to think about here.

You didn't answer my questions about selfishness.

--SC
Posted By: Jean36 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 01:30 PM
Quote
Jean36.
Wow. Pretty big of you to expose yourself like that. What are you going to do? There are obviously lots of folks around here you could talk to. Maybe that would help? Maybe not… anyway… I just thought it was a big thing to say what you said. Just letting you know.


Patriot,
Thanks. One thing I know I won't do is commit adultery again. Just like the drinking, I know it doesn't fix my problem. Maybe it is not as important to know why we did it. Maybe we need to know why we will never do it again. And for me, the spiritual bottom I hit as an adulteress was a feeling I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

That is why I think real FWS make great partners. If they are truly remorseful, I would see little chance of a repeat betrayal.
Posted By: betrayedinjersey Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 01:44 PM
Patriot,

I haven't posted here in QUITE some time, and I rarely if ever get to even browse, but I really wanted to reply to your post.

I'm the former BS and my H is the former WS.

We could have spent many years to come "speculating" why he had an A.

In our SPECIFIC case, my H doesn't have character flaws, he's not selfish, he's not immature, he's my H.

The very very bottom line...is that we did not know how to AFFAIR PROOF our marriage.

Obviously...anyone posting on MB... didn't know either.

NOW... we do.

Marriage can be complicated, and difficult.

Now...with the knowledge and experience behind us... we absolutely know how to AFFAIR PROOF our marriage.

I am thrilled to pieces that we made it through that very difficult time.

I love my H deeply, I have forgiven him completely, and I trust him with my heart once again.

He's not, and has never been damaged ...he made a mistake...a horrible betrayal which was not a reflection on either of us.

I hope you find the answers if you need to.

We never did, but we know how to prevent it from ever happening again...and that's far more important to me ...than the speculation of why.

Best of luck to you both.


I don't even know how long I've been in recovery... I can't even remember the year of DDay...I guess I'd have to look at my signature line or something.

It's been several years now.
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 06:31 PM
I wasn't trying to sound flippant or over generalize by stating that the choice to be dishonest/cheat comes from immaturity. It seems to me that that would be the underlying cause of all the reasons people give, which by the way probably are as many as their are people.

I do much better with Solutions Focused Therapy, so the self analysis to me seems like something that one wouldn't need to spend too much time on, because you are still going to have to come up with the solutions for changing behavioral patterns.

I do agree with the posters above stating the important thing is to know why you will never do it again.

It could be as simple as you were a free-loader and became a buyer once DD occured and you realized that you did want to be committed to frozen and nothing would be worth losing her for.

I wonder if frozen is having such a rough time being able to trust you again because the cheating happened so early in your R. She has no real guage of who you are or what kind of a person you are because you had not been married for a long time before the cheating. She doesn't know if it is out of character for you or if it is your character.

My ex had lied to me from the getgo, and I having no clue whatsoever, became a real mess afterwards. It took a long time for me to be able to trust my own perceptions, I mean I was really effed up for a long time. I questioned my own judgement on everything after that, at times I really thought I was nuts.

It may be more difficult to regain trust, or to lose the fear when it happens at the onset before you really know who each other are. Maybe she doesn't know if it was the fog or if it is a weakness you will always have.

I agree with Jean about the FWS being so clear on their own weakness's and having really thought hard about what they needed to have in place because of those weakness's that they probably are a lot better bet than someone who has never given it any thought.

Maybe this self-analysis is so you can identify where you need to have boundaries in place, in that case I can see why Harley recommended it.

I sure do feel bad that you two are having trouble. You've worked hard on this marriage and I hope soon it can become a source of joy.

Frozen, if you are reading I wanted to let you know that in my case with my ex, I had to learn to trust myself, that I was strong enough to be able to handle someone cheating on me again, that I could trust my own instincts...and most of all that it wasn't my fault that I didn't know and that I fell in love with someone who was cheating. I simply didn't know him, and therefore could not have known he was a liar. Not that Patriot is, but my ex was. And I do understand how difficult it must be.

I'm getting married soon, and it is hard at times and this is a different guy. Trust has been very difficult for me but I place a lot of trust in myself. I know I can handle anything now, and I know I won't be a fool. I also plan on practicing the Harley ideas for having a great marriage. This helps me in being able to trust in myself and have hope that a good marriage is possible, and even likely.

Sorry for the ramble.
Posted By: Katie_Mae Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 06:46 PM
Oh, you nitpicker! Okay, I've been in recovery for one year, eleven months and ten days or something. I said almost two years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry if saying "you either do the work or you don't" doesn't seem insightful... I guess for me, knowing the reason why is the first step in fixing the problem. It helps you formulate a plan. For example, last year I was trying to cut down on sugar. However, I found myself at the candy cabinet at work several times a week, even when I knew I shouldn't be there and mentally didn't want to be. I was just "starving" and "needed some chocolate." No I wasn't!

It was all emotional. I started really thinking about it (questioning why) and discovered a pattern in my behavior... I was going to the candy cabinet after working with a particularly stressful group of kids (I work in a school). It was after lunch, so I obviously wasn't hungry. But emotionally I felt like I was "starving" and chocolate was the only thing that could help. Once I discovered the WHY of my problem, I could address the behavior. My solution was to make some tea and do a couple of relaxation exercises instead, and I was fine from then on. I didn't need the chocolate anymore.

I don't know if confessing helped my situation or not. I honestly thought my H was going to kick me to the curb, and that's what I prepared for. Maybe because he wanted to stay with me... to work on things... it helped me. My first question was always why... even when I was active in my A I was asking the question... WHY am I doing this? And afterwards... WHY did this happen? WHY did I behave this way? WHY is my husband still with me? Why, why, why?

I've spent a lot of time in IC, reading self-help books and journaling, figuring out the answers to these questions. When you do the work to know the why, you can make plans and create boundaries that protect both yourself and your M.

I guess that's where the rat comment came from. From my experience, the why has always been the first step. I'm sorry if it came across harshly. I just find it difficult to understand how anyone could be in recovery without asking the question... if there is no self-reflection, there is no healing. And without healing, there is no self-protection and no real, intrinsic reason to safeguard yourself and your M.

I'm glad you're asking the question now.
Posted By: smartcookie Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 07:15 PM
Quote
I just find it difficult to understand how anyone could be in recovery without asking the question...


Me too, KM. But don't forget... Patriot's a guy... and I suspect a "guy's guy". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes takes a little more time and effort to get those tough nuts to crack open enough to do much self reflcetion, KWIM? (Hope that didn't insult you, Pat).

I agree with everything you wrote in your last post about the importance of understanding "why" so you can effectively address it.

I just want to add one thing to this...

Quote
When you do the work to know the why, you can make plans and create boundaries that protect both yourself and your M.

You and a number of other posters have talked about knowing weaknesses, creating boundaries, and protecting the marriage. I agree... but I wouldn't stop there.

I think it's much more beneficial in the long run not to just build fences around your weaknesses... but to fix them, ya know?

For example... I now understand that a combination of circumstances in my past left me: (1) Sexualized too early/over sexualized. (2) Needy of male attention (3) Low on self-worth. Pretty dangerous combo.

Now... I can create all sorts of boundaries and rules of behavior to guard against that combination of weaknesses. (Like join a convent, for example <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />). Or I can do the REAL work to bump up my self-worth and get a grip on my sexuality so that I'm not so needy of male attention... and not so likely to act like a starving woman being offered a gourmet meal when that attention is offered.

To me, the second choice seems like a better and safer bet for both personal and marital recovery.

--SC
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 07:22 PM
Quote
Or I can do the REAL work to bump up my self-worth and get a grip on my sexuality so that I'm not so needy of male attention... and not so likely to act like a starving woman being offered a gourmet meal when that attention is offered.


Exactly. And for me it meant adding another step inbetween (not having positive role models in my life) of studying women who were succesful in their lives and marriages. And I do mean studying.

I also had to throw a step in there of first determing the kind of person I wanted to be and what I wanted my life to look like.

I liked what you said about now in your marriage you let each grow and change, and just be who you are or you want to be. This is very important, and it was a huge part in my choice of who I am going to marry.

Some people are threatened by any change in the other, and I know that in the fifty ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) years I have ahead of me, there will be lots of changes in me. At least I sure hope there is. And I hope I will allow him to change and grow and always be who he wants to be.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 07:23 PM
Patriot,

I don't have anything to contribute. Just wanted to highlight this quote of yours because it not only cracked me up (yes, I actually cackled out loud)...it really says something...very much resonated with me...and your phrasing is marvelous:

Quote
P/A behavior is entitlement. It is keeping anger under cover and then letting it out sideways in deliberately hurtful ways. Nothing says I’m mad at you like betrayal, eh?


Thank you very much.

LA
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 09:17 PM
Quote
But don't forget... Patriot's a guy... and I suspect a "guy's guy". Sometimes takes a little more time and effort to get those tough nuts to crack open enough to do much self reflcetion, KWIM? (Hope that didn't insult you, Pat).


You may not have had the intent to offend me or disrespect me, but I want to let you know that I find this comment to be VERY offensive and disrespectful towards me.

I don't find it useful, constructive or necessary for you to flatter my husband's masculinity and follow it up by cyber-winking at him, nor do I find it helpful to offer him an excuse for Freeloading behavior during Recovery by basically saying "Well, you're just a guy. If you weren't so MANLY, it probably would have been easier for you...WINK WINK/BATTING EYELASHES."

Kindly refrain from responses such as these in the future.
Posted By: KiwiJ Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 09:44 PM
Frozen I may be wrong but I think that SC meant that Patriot was a "guy's guy" in that he's out of touch with his emotions and feelings and not very self aware. I'm sure I've heard Patriot say the same thing himself.

I certainly didn't take it as meaning he had an "out" because he was a man. Quite the opposite - I took it as meaning he needed to get over being the "man" and that men like him are particularly hard to get through to. I think that by looking at the "why", he is attempting to do that which, I imagine is a completely foreign concept to him.

I don't mean that nastily in any way, Patriot - I think it's very commendable of you to do this because it IS so foreign to you.
Posted By: Katie_Mae Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 10:10 PM
Patriot,

See your W's response to Smartcookie?

You are not making her feel safe. She takes Smartcookie's response as flattery, which is a reflection on you. It means you are not doing what you can to make her trust you.

What have you been doing to make your W feel safe, and if you haven't been doing a good job, how are you going to change it?

KM
Posted By: healingbird Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/03/07 10:51 PM
KM -

Quote
See your W's response to Smartcookie?

You are not making her feel safe. She takes Smartcookie's response as flattery, which is a reflection on you. It means you are not doing what you can to make her trust you.

Ummm....I'm confused. How is Patriot responsible for what SC said and how Frozen reacted to it?

Your post implies that Patriot is being held responsible for things that are not under his control, and that strikes me as counter-productive to the purpose of his thread.

If I missed something obvious, please let me know.
Posted By: medc Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 12:14 AM
SC's response is typical of a female that thinks she has a clue about men...when she doesn't. I am certain even a man's man is very in touch with his feelings...he may decide to share them or not depending on the person.
KM... I agree with HB... Patriot is not responsible in any way for Frozens reaction. It doesn't mean he isn't doing his job...it means that Froz has a problem with the post.
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 01:47 AM
Quote
Patriot is not responsible in any way for Frozens reaction. It doesn't mean he isn't doing his job...it means that Froz has a problem with the post.


Precisely.

Kiwi,

As I stated before, it matters not to me what SC's intention was. The post was not okay with me and I am requesting that she stop.
Posted By: lindysue Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 02:29 AM
I ususally post on the Forgiveness and INsight from FWS but your definition of P/A really nailed what my husband did to me-sure did me in but at least he is beginning to understand what P/A even means. He definitely showed how mad he could be when I moved out and he sought another.
Posted By: ba109 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 02:54 AM
Quote
It means you are not doing what you can to make her trust you.

What have you been doing to make your W feel safe...

It is not patriot's job to 'make' frozen trust him or 'make' her feel safe. That is completely up to frozen.

He can eliminate all love busting, trust busting behaviors and yet frozen may never feel safe or trusting of him again.
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 05:13 AM
I'm going to interject here with something Dr. Phil said to a WH who was wondering when (two years after his A) his wife was going to "get over it."

Dr. Phil said "She will NEVER get over it until she believes in her heart that you truly understand how much you have hurt her."

That seems to be it-in a nutshell.
Posted By: KiwiJ Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 05:56 AM
You know something ba109. I've often been shocked by some of the things you say here. I remember you telling Bob Pure that he should have done the job properly when he drove into that tree and I was completely shocked but it actually shocked him out of his "poor me" status and was one of the posts that sent him on the road to recovery. I think with your "tough" talk you are often very right.

However, I think it IS Patriot's job to make Frozen trust him and make her feel safe. It's the only thing a FWS can do and it's the actions that matter.

But.... I think Patriot could do back flips and prostrate himself on the ground forevermore and I still don't think Frozen will ever forgive. Some people don't.

Frozen, what will you do about that?

MEDC, Patriot has ADMITTED here that he doesn't "get" emotions and feelings. If he hadn't said that (somewhere, I don't remember exactly where) I would have kept my mouth shut.
Posted By: aussieswife Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 06:02 AM
Quote
P/A behavior is entitlement. It is keeping anger under cover and then letting it out sideways in deliberately hurtful ways. Nothing says I’m mad at you like betrayal, eh?


I have been quietly reading this thread and this statement is so spot on for the main reason for many affairs including mine. If you can see this PAT then you are close to seeing the real nuts & bolts of the why. What was hurting you and why you reacted in that particular way .... You may even find now that whatever the hurt was back then makes you scratch your head in puzzlement as you wonder why it hurt you back then at all. It's so often is more about 'us' than what our spouses may or may not have done.

I HATED my H for the perceived hurt he inflicted on 'me' (selfish bit again) and this was a way to hurt him back.
It took a long time for me to admit that to myself even with a lot of IC work. It shames me even now.
I blamed a lot of things except this intention to cause deliberate pain. It also has a lot to do with passive/agressive relationship at the time and some external factors that impacted on both our lives.

Its like building a wall, a few bricks added one at a time until you see no way forward and just want to bash away at the one person you think is responsible. It also helps if they bleed same as you. At least thats the way you think until reality slams you in the face.

I am not at all sure there is ever just one why, but rather a whole load of them. I sometimes wonder at the grace of my H and other BS who forgive and perhaps never truly understand why we chose to decide so selfishly.
My H says 'even saints stuff up and neither of us are in the running for sainthood'.

It haunts me that my H as other BS have to struggle so hard to let go of the pain & hurt, that I can't FIX it, even though I caused it.
Posted By: Katie_Mae Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 12:37 PM
It's not a FWS job to make a BS feel safe? Really???

So if my H doesn't want me to spend time with an old male friend of mine because it makes him uncomfortable, I can tell him that's just his problem and he has to deal with it? Just because I had an A doesn't mean that any man is a threat to our M? I don't care that H never liked this person... this is his cross to bear? Bulls$#%!


So I can go out and do things and not tell my H, even if I'm just out with girlfriends having coffee? I'm running a few minutes late, and H is home wondering when I'll be back. When I walk in the door at dinnertime he tells me that it makes him uncomfortable when I'm late and he doesn't know where I am. So what, H will have to get over it... just because I had an A, HE'S the one who needs to work on learning to trust me again and I have no part in needed to help him feel safe.

So I can spontaneously take a 2 hour ride to visit my family on a day off and not tell my H, and when I come home and tell him what I did, he's being irrational when he says he wishes I told him, because he had been calling and emailing me and when I didn't respond it freaked him out? He just needs to learn to trust ME?

Is this what everyone is saying? Because if it is, I certainly don't believe it... I mean, come on! The FWS first job is to make the BS feel safe. Be an open book. No secrets. Tell everything... even if it seems mundane. If something makes the BS uncomfortable, help he or she feel better about it. If the FWS exhibits behavior that the BS doesn't like (independence, overly friendly, etc.) work on changing the freaking behavior. Find out why you're doing it, and change it. It IS the FWS responsibility.

But maybe that's just me, or I'm taking what everyone is saying the wrong way. I certainly hope that's the case, because it really seems counterintuitive and insane to me to say it isn't the FWS job to make their spouse feel comfortable. There is something obviously wrong with a person who has an A, and it is that person's responsibility to figure out why they did it, fix it, and love and protect the person they betrayed in a way that makes he or she feel safe.
Posted By: ba109 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 12:55 PM
katie,

So as not to TJ, see frozens thread.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 01:04 PM
A WS absolutely has a responsiblity to make his or her BS feel safe.

There is no doubt about it.

As WS who does not demonstrate consistent trustworthy behaviors will not be trusted.

None of us want to be hurt that way again.

PA behavior is particularly sneaky and underhanded - and if Patriot has identified that as his particular form of behavior....it is not a surprise to me that Pat and Froz are still dealing with trust issues.

PA behavior IS about keeping the other person off balance. It is lovebusting as a way of life, while insisting that everything is perfectly normal and fine.

IF this is the problem with Patriot, its perfectly understandable that Froz is still feeling totally off balance all of the time.

That being said however...

I do not think that any WS can jump high enough if a BS does not do the personal healing/recovery work that he or she needs.

It takes 2, imagine that =)

At the end of the day, there was just nothing that my husband could do that would really give me that feeling of complete safety.

Oh his consistent trustworthy behavior helped me a great deal...don't get me wrong...

But at the end of the day, *I* had to deal with my fear.

I had to learn to trust myself. In rebuilding my own self-esteem, I found the confidence to know that I would and could recognize if an affair were to happen again. I found comfort in knowing that *I* would be OK if he did it again, because I now know what to do if it happens. I also learned to not make it all about me. My self esteem no longer depends on what my husband thinks.

Without both pieces in place - the understanding and trustworthy behavior on the part of the WS and the personal recovery on the part of the BS...I don 't think that recovery is possible.
Posted By: smartcookie Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 01:04 PM
Frozen,

My sincere apology. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I did not not intend for my comment to be fattering to Pat in any way, shape or form. Just my thought on why it's taken him so long to get his sh-- together without being "fishy". The wink was meant for Katie Mae (whom I was addressing at the moment), not Pat.

That said, I can understand why this is a sore spot for you, and I really am sorry it upset you so much. I will be more careful.

--SC
Posted By: ba109 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 01:37 PM
Quote
That being said however...

I do not think that any WS can jump high enough if a BS does not do the personal healing/recovery work that he or she needs.

It takes 2, imagine that =)

At the end of the day, there was just nothing that my husband could do that would really give me that feeling of complete safety.

Oh his consistent trustworthy behavior helped me a great deal...don't get me wrong...

But at the end of the day, *I* had to deal with my fear.

Thank you. This is exactly my point. Not for frozen specifically, but for BS's in general.
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 04:08 PM
PAT,

Thanks for your reply.

My FWH told me much the same that you did, that it didn't have to do with being somebody new, or starting over with someone new - that the whole affair was "just sex" and there were "no emotional entanglements".

I want to tell you something about this. For him, it seemed to reduce the importance of the affair somehow. That it somehow lessened the infraction, because there was not an emotional involvement, and that the issue was "purely a sexual involvement". Therefore, his infraction against me was limited to a sexual infraction.

For me, this made it somehow WORSE. That he was willing to throw away our marriage

for sex.

That I was not worth anything more than casual sex to him.

That in his mind, the risk he took for a piece of a$$ was well worth it - and that the trade, me for that, was fine with him.

I somehow find myself believing that at least if he would have loved her, the trade would have been better? I don't know. At least there would have been more value in this transaction in exchange for me. In this particular trade, I feel like I come out being valuled as worth less than the town whor#.


This rationalization made me feel less than anything else in the world.

Still does.

Just wanted to throw this out to you, FWIW.

SB
Posted By: Orchid Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 05:30 PM
Ok, I'm gonna tackle this one because I can see where this may have put some on the offensive.

Quote
Quote
KatieMae: It means you are not doing what you can to make her trust you.

What have you been doing to make your W feel safe...

BA109: It is not patriot's job to 'make' frozen trust him or 'make' her feel safe. That is completely up to frozen.

Orchid: It is his job. He caused the distrust by having an A. It is his job to rebuilt it..... as best as he can.

Quote
BA109:He can eliminate all love busting, trust busting behaviors and yet frozen may never feel safe or trusting of him again.

Orchid: This is true. When Patriot does his best at rebuilding the trust (and I mean his BEST).... and if Froz still can not feel safe nor trusting with him, then it may be that D is the only solution. That is a risk Patriot has to take either way.

Just because a WS becomes a Xws and does good for the rest of his life, it is no guarantee the BS HAS TO forgive and take the Xws back.

My question which I have yet to see address is: What are both Froz and Patriot doing to bring each other closure?

IMHO, until there is closure, no trust c/b rebuilt.

L.
Posted By: mopey Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/04/07 08:37 PM
Kiwij....

Quote
However, I think it IS Patriot's job to make Frozen trust him and make her feel safe. It's the only thing a FWS can do and it's the actions that matter.

But.... I think Patriot could do back flips and prostrate himself on the ground forevermore and I still don't think Frozen will ever forgive. Some people don't.

Frozen, what will you do about that?



With all due respect, I think you are making an unfair assumption of Frozen.

If it took this long for Patriot to ask the question "why", I wouldn't trust him either.

It is apparent he hasn't been taking full responsibility for his affair. It sounds like he wanted to shove it under the rug, probably was able to do that because Frozen may have been given advice to "get over it" and "move on".

Trouble is, you can't move on and trust someone until you know...they know... "why" they had an affair in the first place. If you don't know why, then you have no idea where your weaknesses are, so you can protect them. Which means, Frozen probably has been feeling unprotected and unsafe, most likely.

Quote
MEDC, Patriot has ADMITTED here that he doesn't "get" emotions and feelings.


He has also mentioned, I believe, that he is passive-aggressive and a conflict avoider. Please forgive me if I'm wrong Patriot.

P/As and conflict avoiders usually have a hard time expressing their emotions. They have a hard time telling the truth also. If Patriot is anything like my (previously) P/A/Conflict avoiding H, he probably avoids any kind of real, truthful, intimate conversation with Frozen to help her feel safe. Relationships like this will keep you off balance, just as BR mentioned.

Patriot....my H was afraid to tell me things he thought would hurt me. He was also afraid to tell me things about himself that he was ashamed of. He didn't want me to see the real him, so he kept me at a distance.

You have got to let Frozen in Patriot. Show her who you really are. Be intimate with her and you'll be so much happier. RESPECT her enough to let her make up her own mind about how she will feel about you once you open up to her.

My H was brought up not being able to voice or express his emotions. Negative emotions were "kept in check". It kept him from maturing "emotionally". So, he learned how to express his displeasure and unhappiness covertly, and "sideways". Since his displeasure never came out in honest, from the heart conversations, I never knew what was what with us. I always felt in the dark. Completely off balance always. It was enough to make me feel crazy and insane. I STILL doubt my judgement regarding many things because of this.

I kid you not, about three weeks ago, my H actually got upset because I didn't know "when he was telling the truth and when he wasn't". My jaw dropped. My H has spent our lifetime together trying to hide what he didn't want to face and letting me know how he really felt about things. He would say one thing, but his actions didn't match. He would tell me things he thought I'd rather hear, than tell me the truth to avoid conflict. Do you know conflict creates intimacy? It's how you handle the conflict that is important.

I feel like I'm rambling. It's just that I feel like I know where Frozen is coming from, and from where you're coming from Patriot. If I'm way off base, I'm sorry. Maybe someone else reading this thread might find themselves in these words.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/06/07 03:20 AM
You are not wrong Mopey. I have plenty of instances of being both P/A and C/A.

I grew up in a household that was loving, great and all about me. Top of the world.

Then my mother died. I was 9.

Ok.. so traumatic experience. usually a good catalyst for problems later...

Then my father married a woman that had two children already, 9 months older than I, and they had come from a severely abusive home. Really bad. She was a school teacher and they were poor. Very. Dad only had me to take care of, so we didn't do to bad.. but he was still only a blue-collar guy... so it isn't like I had caviar lifestyle-like things going on. He worked hard and we got by.

She saw me as the spoiled well-to-do kid that had never really seen the hard reality of life.

And I think she wanted to make sure I got it.

She threatened me with making Dad side with her at all times. And most of the time he did. She was never interested in hearing my side of the story. So on and so forth. It was extremely hostile to me and my brother and sister didn't get it as hard as I because they were 'her' kids.

So I learned to stay away and that opening up to people was NOT safe.

Not now.

Not ever.

That has been the single biggest reason for my emplacing walls against women I get into relationships with. The Imago folks say you get into relationships to resolve the wounds of your childhood.

I only did it half-[censored]. I got in the relationships all right... but I had no interest it seems in anything other than "just like home" kinds of crap.

And it sucks to look back on all of that behind me and know that I put myself through all of it once I got out of mom and dads house.

I hate that fact.

But, more on topic here.. I was thinking about the why some more.. Something I thought was a factor was awareness.

I never knew of any of thie MB stuff. Love banks, love busters and so on. If you would have told e we are all wired for an affair 10 years ago, I would have blown you off completely. Whatever, I might have said. Not because I didn't really believe it so much.... but because I did even KNOW that analysis of a relationship and such was something even worthwile.

If you do something polite for people but you don't know why, what does that mean? What if you aren't even aware why it IS a good thing? Should you not figure out your motives before you act?? I say yes. If you walk old lady's across the street with their groceries, good for you, but what if the only reason you were doing that is because you saw it on a movie and it seemed like something fun? Poor example, but awareness of what you are doing and WHY you are doing it AT THE TIME of execution is probably something to talk about.

I have values. Hard as that might be to believe for some, I do. Had I been aware of what I was doing and how it was not lined up with my personal values (meaning my behavior in a relationship towards a woman) then maybe that would have been something.

Had I been aware of MB principles, I think it would have made a difference. Had I been aware of the pain it would cause frozen and I, maybe I would have chosen differently.

remember I am talking in terms of why here. I am not trying to shirk one once of responsibility in this matter, but in exploring the why I have to admit not feeling totally aware of relationship innerworkings to a satisfactory degree to even be qualified to participate in them. I sucked at them, pure and simple.

My job to fix that and make myself a much better risk as a partner. I failed to do that. Totally.

And then I coupled that with not really being willing to work on relationship issues. I was totally a freeloader. Relationships were only to serve me for as long as they worked. But, and I laughed when I realized this. Sort of. I rarely ended relationships. THAT would be facing a conflict and hurting someones feelings right??? Breaking up with them would be mean!!! and I can't do that and look like th ebad guy right??

So I would get into relationships and then as thye went sour from my lack of input, it would start to become a prison of my own creation. I would start in a relationship. It would go south. I couldn't get out because I wouldn't do it. Finally she would end it and I would start it over.

And over. and over. Including the relationship prior to Frozen, whom she and I call cinnamon, which was an absolute trainwreck. I was so lonely at that time I would have eated sand and told you it was the most moist cake I had ever tasted. It was really bad for me then. And then Frozen came along and she was really great to me.

And now here we are.

I was not aware of how to do this. I was further conditioned to be P/A, by my OWN doing I think, and so it was just a bad mix to start with.

Maybe that is ridiculous..

I can not tell you how many times I have seen something in MB, Imago or any other program and thought, "Wow, that would have been really helpful in the past during this time" or "No wonder everything goes so bad for me in relationships".

I never knew any of this. And I was too clueless to even look. Blinded by what feels good instead of trying to solve an issue with a long-term solution.

MAybe this is pointless rambling, but it certainly seems to make sense to me.

IF a car own drives a car, thinking they are doing all the right things by changing the oil, filling it with gas and making sure the tires are aired up... only to have the transmission go out because it developed a leak and THAT wasn't being watched because the owner was just completely clueless to its very existance.

Maybe far-fatched. I wonder if it makes sense to someone other than me.

Seems to fall in line with the knowledge is power idea.

Also... and this seems scary...

Steve says we are ALL wired for an affair (yes... even YOU MEDC... sorry... couldn't help it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) but if you didn't KNOW you were wired that way... wouldn't that be pretty dangerous?

Totally not putting any kind of protection up because of ignorance.

ANd that gets dealt with by awareness.

Sorry I haven't posted until now... just been busy and pondering. And busy.

ANd busy
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/06/07 03:25 AM
Oh... for the record, I totally beleive in the "cause and effect" workings of a relationship.

It is COMPLETELY my responsibility to exhibit behaviors and actions that so Frozen that I can be trusted and not feared. It is when I am doing those things that she will then be able to actually trust me and not fear me.

Now, if I do EVERYTHING possibly to make myself trustworthy and not to be feared... and frozen STILL does not feel like trusting me or safe... then maybe we do have something that needs looking at on her side.

We aren't in that ballpark yet.
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/06/07 01:58 PM
Quote
MAybe this is pointless rambling, but it certainly seems to make sense to me.


No, this post made more sense to me as "why", then your first which seemed to me to be full of excuses. What you just posted seems more to me to be actual reasons.

You didn't see the big picture before, now you do. Now you look for the big picture, or are starting to.

People lie for one reason and that is fear. You can label behaviors motored by fear as CA or PA, or whatever but fear is the underlying cause.

I will not lie, because quite frankly there is no one on earth I fear enough to lie to. Now that may change, as in to protect my DD from harm, so I won't put it in stone.

I won't get into any sitch I may have to lie about because lieing is so abhorant to me that I can't stomach the thought of having to do it. I think things through now all the way to the logical conclusion.

Patriot, this is what it means to be grown up. Why some people get it early in life and some people get it later in life is something I don't know. Part of lessons to be learned, and we each have own. Mine happened to be in relationships and apparently so does yours and everyone else on this board, BS and WS alike.

Figure out what it is you are scared of in your "CA", "PA" behavior. Think of it as fear, and I have a fealing it will end up being a behavior you cannot tolerate in yourself. That may be enough to change it.
Posted By: ba109 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/06/07 02:13 PM
Quote
It is COMPLETELY my responsibility to exhibit behaviors and actions that so Frozen that I can be trusted and not feared. It is when I am doing those things that she will then be able to actually trust me and not fear me.

Agreed. So that you CAN be trusted and not feared. It's not something you can 'make' her feel. That is her responsibility. But as frozen has posted, she has already decided when she will feel safe and trusting again...when you are able to exhibit those behaviors and actions in a sincere and consistent manner.
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/06/07 06:37 PM
Only a consistent pattern of behavior will make her feel safe.

WE learn from our Past. Right now her past is littered with incidents that make trusting and feeling safe impossible.

Today forward you have the ability to exhibit a constent pattern of behavior tha would make Froz (in the future) be able to feel safe and trust you.

Unfortunately you have to do it today knowing the return on that investment is down the road.

Froz need to be able to look at a past that makes trusting you and feeling safe a reasonable thing to do.

Today is yours to start exhibiting that consistent pattern, IN WORDS, DEEDS AND ACTIONS.

When Froz then has that past as a good future indicator it is then her job to let go of the way distant past and start littl by little trusting and feeling safe.

Pat the onus of course is on you to get there.
Posted By: Katie_Mae Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 12:26 AM
Pat,

How's it going?

KM
Posted By: smu Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 01:31 AM
Hi Pat,

Somethings occurred to me on reading your posts...

SO: Your mum died when you were 9...abandoning you.
Your stepmum, for her own reasons, emotionally abandoned you.

Most of your adult life your relationships with women were shallow.
When you were angry... this came out as P/A behaviour.

What were you angry about? Who were you angry with?

Froz? or your Mum, your stepmum, and women in general?
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 04:12 AM
KM,
Not well this evening I'm afraid. Frozen and I had an argument where I started it with an angry outburst and she ended it by reminding me how I had thrown our relationship away by ****ing some ******.

Not an uncommon argument, honestly.

But, as much as that is NOT ok with me, what can I do about that? I would like to find a solution that is mutually agreeable for both frozen and I. I have been reading the buyers, renters, freeloaders book and I find the buyers agreement very appealing.

Very mature. And I like that. And I see ways for me to do it without it being too much of a struggle, therefore more easily becoming habit.

That said, After reading a few chapters this evening, I came to the realization that I was at best a renter when frozen found me. I was totally willing to sacrifice and expected her to sacrifice for me(let me off the hook for things so I didn't have to change them). Additionally, I was sitting around willing to peruse something better, if it happened to come along. I had some renter qualities.

But I see a portion of why I had an affair in this reading.

I traded in my renter agreement for a freeloader agreement because I was angry about all the sacrificing I was doing. And most of it she had no clue about, if any. Combine the sacrificing, the passive agression, the renter agreement, the FOO issues, the lack of awareness, closed nature towards openness and intimacy and the selfishness and I may as well have been wearing a plastic explosive vest.

I could have screamed jihad and everything...

well.. seriously it was dangerous for me to be toying in relationships. And I am frankly astonished that anyone can work all these issues out without some sort of help...

So, from the above list, what have I done to deal with my weaknesses? For sacrificing, I have been trying POJA, using both my giver and my taker. I understand that they must be balanced. So I am practicing that. It is hard though, because I am not dealing with a buyer most of the time. No excuse though. The passive aggression seems to have gotten quite a bit smaller… mostly due to more openness and some success at POJA. Also, when I am angry about something, I try to get the issue out in the open, even if we don’t resolve it right then. Try,…anyway. Also, trying POJA is a way to try the buyer’s agreement without being a buyer… so I am trying that. Negotiated things like my Army career and dinner and thing in between. Have been doing better since the job incident.

Dealing with passive aggression is a harder nut to crack, but so far it has worked to get feelings out in the open and at least make her aware. Awareness has been very helpful on this one. Maybe I could come up with some more ways to beat this one, but things seem to be working right now.

Renter agreement. Well.. I have freeloader, renter and buyer qualities. Some more than others. I want to be a buyer. So I am reading up on it.

FOO Issues. Not really a plan here.

Lack of awareness. Dealing with that ina number of ways. Posts, reading, talking and learning about MB and other relationship ideals.

There is more to deal with… I will post later

Oh, and on the fight we had, it began because she had asked me to find some way to get her the emails from my work computer so she could see them and know what I was doing. I procrastinated it. She is right to be upset. The attack from her was not welcome, but she had the right to be angry. And I am resolved to fix this issue as soon as I can. Regardless of if she griped about it or not. I am going to fix this tomorrow the best I can. And then she and I can negotiate the remainder going forward about how to deal with this.

Anyway, the truth on the job email thing is she asked for something, and I agreed. And then I procrastinated it and forgot. And then at times I thought of it, it was not so important that I get up right at that moment and del with it. I was selfish and not kind or giving about it. Nor protecting.

So I am fixing the error tomorrow and then going to negotiate how to go forward with it.


I fear I will be shut down in the negotiations. Just an honest fear. I will still POJA for this, though.

Anyway, I am tired. Just thought about some more on my why.

In framing the buyers, renters freeloaders ideas.. it was just enlightening to read about them and see the working of them leading people to certain behaviors.

And I am convinced that this had something to do with me. More on it later.
Posted By: KiwiJ Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 05:36 AM
Pat, I think you're doing a very good job with this. I know how hard it is for you.

FWIW, I'm a passive agressive conflict avoider but then so's my H. We often wonder why we are. We both had EXTREMELY controlling older sisters who were always right and we were always "stupid" or "too young" or just plain "wrong". It sounds like it wasn't much - especially compared to what you went through - but, believe me, years and years of it make you believe it about yourself. We're both convinced that's where our PA/CA traits come from. (I find it interesting we're BOTH very PA/CA).

Our "fights" are silences or skirting around issues or backing down (one or other of us) never facing a conflict.

I'm interested to see where your journey takes you because we need a lot of help in this area as well.

One thing I'm learning is that my opinion counts and I have a right to it.
Posted By: noodle Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 07:27 AM
I think passivity probably had a lot to do with it.

Your descriptions combined with Frozens descriptions contrasted with her posts expressing a lack of pursuit or perceived lack of pursuit makes a pretty compelling case imo that a more [or at least equally] relevant question might be...why were you engaged?

Why were you living with her?

Why were you circumstantially moving in a direction you couldn't commit to with both feet?

Emotional dishonesty certainly must play a significant role for both Frozen [being encouraged to invest in building a future with someone who does not share her desire for that future] and yourself [which people often forget... being passive here sets you up to find yourself where you never wanted to be..more on that later].

That didn't make it into the big book of devious plots due to the obvious design flaw via double edged sword.

This is a large part of the reason that I so adamantly discourage people from marrying partners who were unfaithfull and also why I discourage people from living together and being sexually intimate prior to marriage.

Of course there is the obvious moral issue but as is very often the case there is also direct fallout for trying to rearrange the order against the express instructions of the designer.

We have talked before about how closely tied the personal freedom to say "no" and the ability to wholeheartedly say "yes" really are and your situation is a classic example.

In my opinion you failed to say "no" to an affair because you had not said "yes" to marriage, commitment, and faithfullness with complete investment in Frozen for whatever reason or collection of reasons.

You outed yourself both extravagantly and undeniably with this action.

Frozen outed herself as well because she did sense that something was "off" and likewise failed to halt the presses and say "sorry, but this feels wrong whether it is or not". She did not trust her perceptions which were DEAD on and I don't think she has forgiven herself for that yet.

I see regret more often here at this point than almost anywhere else...that prior to the marriage one or both people involved probably would have chosen to end the relationship rather than continue if it had been casual [and certainly not pursue aggressively] however they have gotten themselves circumstantially more invested than they are fully willing to invest in with the other areas of their lives yet they are also [due to that investment] not willing to suck it up and accept the loss or be the bad guy [the one who declares time of death].

So here you both are living a life that neither of you would have chosen freely ...you being asked to give more than you want to give in many areas and her hating that it is still not your DESIRE to love her the way she wants to be loved.

Let's look at that a moment ok?

You may have a strong compelling desire to have that desire...I'm not saying you don't...I'mm saying that right now today...your desire is NOT to do these things.

I can tell because you keep finding ways around it or building resentment when a way around it isn't forthcoming.

Not much stands between me and a pint of bunny tracks but I can find all sorts of reasons not to clean the gack out of the shower crevices even if I admire pristine ones and truly wished that I did desire it. My unbridled enthusiasm and diligent pursuit exposes me very accurately and so does the lack of it.

So let's separate history [because you are not the same person now that you were at the time of the affair..you are that person PLUS all of the experiences you have had since then] from present tense issues.

Today you both have some of the same decisions to make.

You have the decision about honesty...if you would rather have your tongue nailed to the floor than love her in the way she wants you to then what possible gain is there in failing to be honest about that?

Frozen has the decision about whether to invest in her perception for good or ill and take the gamble and also to be honest about whether she can or is willing to accept the loss of committing to a decision in either direction.

You both have the same opportunity and basically the same losses that you did before you married her to fess up and climb into the drivers seat. I think it's relevant that two years later you are being retained in essentially the same position...I think it is because this question MUST be answered and this lesson MUST be learned or there is no future in this direction.

If it is a discipline issue...that you desire to meet her needs in these heavy conflict areas where you are not compatable but struggle with your flesh and lose [and obviously this goes for her too]...then you really HAVE to begin to study self discipline in earnest because as we have already coverred the truth will out and no one appreciates having their time and their life wasted by insincere posturing. If it is a struggle then let there BE a struggle going on. Put up a fight and in doing so demonstrate your sincerity and intention.
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 07:42 AM
Quote
Anyway, the truth on the job email thing is she asked for something, and I agreed. And then I procrastinated it and forgot. And then at times I thought of it, it was not so important that I get up right at that moment and deal with it.


Nope.

The truth on the job e-mail thing is that he took this job behind my back because I told him that I had fears about it.

After the fact, he claimed to be extremely remorseful and said he would do anything to help me feel safe about it.

I asked for transparency regarding work e-mail. I asked if it were possible for me to log on to his work e-mail from another computer and he said that he would find out whether or not that was possible. I also mentioned the idea of forwarding his e-mail to me.

He failed to do either of these things.

Quote
it was not so important that I get up right at that moment and deal with it.


That is not forgetting. That is not caring if your spouse suffers as a result of your selfishness.

He also stated that he did not forget about my suggestion to forward the e-mails to me. He said he decided that it would be too much of a hassle.

Can anyone give me a reason why I should continue working on Recovery?
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 07:57 AM
Quote
I think it's relevant that two years later you are being retained in essentially the same position


Three years later.
Posted By: noodle Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 08:05 AM
oops..3 years
Posted By: committedandlovi Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 11:13 AM
Can anyone give me a reason why I should continue working on Recovery?

You are not working on recovery. It is evident by the following comment:

[color:"red"] Frozen and I had an argument where I started it with an angry outburst and she ended it by reminding me how I had thrown our relationship away by ****ing some ******.

Not an uncommon argument, honestly.
[/color]

You are still packing the big guns and ready to fire at will. He is paying everyday of his life...whether passively or with these kind of comments. I don't think that you are anywhere at recovery.

The better question might be.... why should HE continue trying?

JMHO
committed
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 01:02 PM
Quote
why should HE continue trying?


He never started.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 01:31 PM
I don't want to get into an on-board fight with my wife, but "he never started" is not a true statement.

He hasn't succeeded would be more correct.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 01:34 PM
Froz,

He's posting. Isn't that starting? Or are his posts worse b/c it reveals his lack of transparancy?

You challenged me to look from my H's POV. Based on his MO re: problem solving, was I expecting too much? (We will discuss your thoughts w/MC today as it is very relevant.)

But it seems you might be missing the same thing in Pat's POV. His PA and CA may get in the way at times, but it seems he is making an effort....at least to me.

My H won't even post....yet.

Ace
Posted By: Katie_Mae Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 01:34 PM
Pat,

Awareness is the first step in recovery, and it's great that you're now recognizing PA behavior. It seems as though you've found some useful tools through Harley's books that are helping. I can't remember, but have you been in IC? Are you interested in that?

I grew up in a CA/PA home and have pretty much overcome this behavior with IC and several self-help books: Changes that Heal, The Art of Living Conciously and the Self Esteem Workbook. All have daily exercises in them, which I have been doing for the past two years. It's a lot of work, but they have helped tremendously.

Frozen continues to be incredibly upset with you. While her anger is justified, it certainly doesn't help you change your behaviors, either. While counseling with the Harleys is important, I think it's equally important that you have professional help as well, to work on changing your communication style. It really is very liberating to be able to speak your mind freely, and no longer live in fear of what others might think or say.

It can also be heartbreaking. I've recently been speaking up to my mother, and it is creating a distance between us. I told her several months ago I was going to ween myself off my Zoloft. On Monday night I confronted her on an issue that had been bothering me. I was honest and respectful. The following night she called me to ask if I had stopped taking my medication. She was "concerned" and was wondering if I thought "I was okay without it." This was her passive-agressive way of telling me my honest confrontation was NOT alright, and I must be off my meds to talk to her the way I did. PA behavior hurts, and pushes people away. I will continue to emotionally distance myself from my mom if I can't be honest and real with her. PA behavior kills intimacy. It is wrecking your M. It IS fixable, with the right support.

I know you just started a new job and counseling with the Harleys, but I highly recommend looking into IC for yourself as well.

KM
Posted By: Owl Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 01:40 PM
Wow.

I've almost never posted to the two of you, but I've followed your story here on MB for a while.

It seems to me that the two of you have never been in recovery. Patriot appears to have not taken all the steps needed to help Frozen with her recovery. She still has some valid reasons to not feel completely 'safe' yet. Frozen still harbors a lot of anger and resentment that she's not let go of yet. While I can completely understand how not feeling safe can impact that, she's still using the affair itself as a weapon against Patriot in their arguments...even if it appears (from the side I saw posted at least) that the argument had nothing to do with the affair or recovery.

I think that the two of you need to take a step back, REALLY evaluate your recovery plan, and work with the Harley's to fix your situation. I think that BOTH of you have responsibility for what looks like a failed recovery. The advice on this board is great, but I think the two of you need to go (back?) to the professionals to REALLY get into a recovery plan again.
Posted By: noodle Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 03:10 PM
Something strikes a discordant note for me about this situation and your description of it...the lack of perceived urgency.

See..here is how your recent situation looks to me in terms of the relationship accounts.

You broke your agreement and essentially "stole" the job and consequently bankrupted your trust account.

Then you claimed remorse but were unwilling to actually just return the money and accept that it would leave you without the income BUT asked if there might be something ELSE you could do...aka the payment plan option.

A big part of the problem with that is the ability to delay the consequence of the account closing...to still have access to credit etc which means that you have the opportunity to dig the hole still deeper and you are very likely to do so because all of the personal issues that went in to issue one are still present when you are faced with making decisions in issue two.

So as soon as things "seem" to be running smoothly again and you are out of conflict you lose your motivation to keep pressing forward [and this is pretty much true of the rest of the world right along with you]. When the conflict goes away it is hard to stay focussed and accountable...for this reason I believe that it does a disservice to all involved to extend credit prematurely. It is far better to refuse and allow the conflict to do its JOB of making you uncomfortable so that you have the best odds chance of genuinely overcoming the wrong beliefs that allowed you to give yourself permission to steal in the first place.

That was true when you were able to marry on the heels of unfaithfull behavior just as surely as it is true today.

I think because of that you have been able to just slide by on promises of "next time" you consequently find yourself trying to deal with calculus when you haven't learned long division yet.

You SHOULD have been stopped dead in your tracks at discovery and also in every subsequent breach of contract...permitting you to move forward without growing strong enough to shoulder that level of intimacy was poor judgement and benefitted no one imo.

It leaves your perception possibly warped [the only explanation I can come up with] so that you are not attaching the relationship alterring significance to mundane tasks which have the power to restore or destroy.

It IS easy to procrastinate an email but it is NOT or should not be easy to procrastinate compensating or repaying a debt that truly weighs heavily on your mind and heart.

I can tell you that because I DO attach that significance I know that I would be doing it barefooted in pajamas rather than allow the sun to rise without me having attended to it...I don't WANT that inequity and loss of respect and I'll fight pretty hard to avoid it.

If you aren't feeling urgency about things like this obviously you will procrastinate because you are certainly feeling urgent about SOMETHING or other and those things will slide into first position every time until the opportunities to take advatage of THIS is lost.

Again I believe that your feelings are being exposed [maybe even to you] by exposing your priorities for what they really ARE and not what you want them to be or think they should be and again I do think that it could be nothing more earth shattering than a discipline issue which causes it to LOOK like you don't care or have bad intentions but even if that is the case you have to accept that how it LOOKS and is experienced by the people who live with you is the measure you will be judged by whether that is the complete truth or not.
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 04:11 PM
Geez this sounds like me and my FWW.

Just to say I read on someone elses thread "don't remember where" but I am plagarizing.

There are two choices after an A staying together or getting a D.

If you decide to stay together recovery isn't always possible. Somtimes it is actually just reconciling the fact your spouse had an A.

First getting email from work. Mirosoft exchange is usually used at most bigger companies.

That can be accessed by going to webmail.hiscompaniesname.com

the password and user name are what he uses to log into the network.

About the job. He should quit the job if it is possible. IS OW around?

He is not doing what is necessary for recovery. So what he is here.

What is he putting in practice from the website?

Radical Honesty? Nope.
POJA? Nope took the job.
Transparency? Nope won't send the emails. Using PA behavior to avoid that.
O & H conversation. No


Just because I go to a message board about Christianity doesn't mean I am trying to be a Christian.

I don't understand the lack of 2x4's.

Froz is the BS that has given 3 years to recover and can't get to the start and yet we are patting Pat on the back.

Figure it out man before it is too late!!

If you don't know the why yet at least start doing things right.

She had a right to be upset. What you did is classic PA behavior.

FROZ you need to move your buttons.

NOW what I would suggest is this "DOING WHAT YOU COMMITT TO DO WITH URGENCY!!!!

IF she asks you for something either say "I won't" and leave it there or I Will and then do it.

For one minute ask your self how ticked off you would be if the roles were reversed with the whole email thing?

Now the question is do you want to recover? If so there is heavy lifting waiting for you.

What message have you sent to Froz about the importance of her feelings when you PURPOSELY procrastinate on something this important to her???
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 04:20 PM
exchange is not used here. Notes is. So you are incorrect. Also, your absolutes in accessing my recovery efforts are grossly miscalculated.

But you don't know me at all. So what can I expect.

People here only know me based on what frozen tells them, because I have made it a point to not refute much she has to say.

It was a long time that she was blasting me all over this board. Go back and read. It is there. All the crossed boundaries. All the manipulation. All the unhealthy behavior.

And now that I am doing something about it, there are growing pains.

oh nevermind. You won't listen anyway, right?

You must be correct in that I deserve more angered responses and 2x4s.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 04:31 PM
Pat92:

Why?

Does it really matter? Now?

Build the Affair-proof marriage.

Keep up the counseling with the Harleys.

Is Froz right? Does that make Pat92 Wrong?

Frog put a direct hit on many of your issues:

"What is he putting in practice from the website?

Radical Honesty? Nope.
POJA? Nope took the job.
Transparency? Nope won't send the emails. Using PA behavior to avoid that.
O & H conversation. No


Just because I go to a message board about Christianity doesn't mean I am trying to be a Christian."

I can gaze at my navel for the next three years and try to come up with the "why" I had my A, now.

I KNOW some of the reasons why, and hanging around here was revaeled to me so much more.

But so what.

I changed myself. Built in the boundaries, that I needed to protect myself.

And in doing that, I made it easier for Flamingo to trust, care for and forgive me.

So, Why? is a good question.

Don't rationalize it.

Walk away from those things in you that allowed it to happen.

You will, and Froz will be, in a better place than.

Just my .02

LG

PS:

You say you know Mel. Why hasn't SHE knocked your block off yet?
Posted By: noodle Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 04:37 PM
Not to t/j but "find out the why" was an assignment directly from Da Man hisself so I'm inclined to believe it's relevant.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 05:00 PM
does what really matter now?

the why?

Well, yes it does matter. In exploring this, I have seen some deeper ways I walked down that path. ANd some of them are no longer a problem.

Awareness was a factor. And now I am aware. That does not mean I am done.

P/A was a factor. And procrastinating is a P/A behavior. ANd with the email I did it. Yet this time, I owned that I did it and I changed the behavior. No waiting around while I defended my actions trying to get some sort of approval. I just changed it.

that I made errors and hurt frozen is true. I won't deny it.

But to simply say "change it" isn't quite specific enough and does not at all address anything I think about any of this.

And sorry... but to be a buyer/buyer relationship, my concerns and issues have to be addressed too. It is when I take action without considering her concerns that I would be trying to manipulate her into a buyer situation when I truly am not one.

ANd that I am not doing.

There is just a ton of anger today. I am at work trying to concentrate. No one is really offering me much other than things I have already heard and an accessment or perceived unwillingness on my part. Oh, and I am being told that my relationship is over.

So forgive me if I don't really know what to say right now. This is a crisis and I have no idea what to do right at this moment.
Posted By: Owl Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 05:08 PM
Like I said...the BOTH of you are responsible for your lack of recovery at this point.

Get some serious professional help. You need to own your mistakes...and FIX THEM. She needs to own her mistakes...AND FIX THEM. Quit the blame shuffling and start REALLY addressing the problems.

This 2x4 is aimed at BOTH of you.
Posted By: noodle Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 05:14 PM
If you are really interested in suggestions for what to "do" rather than speculation and examination my FIRST choice would still be to put out resumes and find a new job using the correct model.

If it were me that would be the only good faith action I could accept.
Posted By: WhoMe Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 06:16 PM
Patriot,

There has been alot said here on this thread. Lots to obsorb, or ignore. I agree wholeheartedly that it is essential to identify the WHY.

I also think that what WS think the reason may be around d-day, is usually not the whole story.

My FWH and I both believed that the reason he has his A was simple. He wanted more SF and I wasn't interested. To be honest, it tormented him and I ignored his torment. I wouldn't even discuss it, and told him it wasn't something I could fix. So it seemed to make sense that he jumped at the first chance that came his way to cheat.

But really, it wasn't that simple, the OW saw his need for SF and willingly and enthusiastically provided it. But more importantly, she constantly flattered him which did wonders initially for his terrible self esteem.

My beleagered point here is that IMHO, mostly there are several layers of why and it takes a combination of things for one to begin an affair.

My FWH and I had loads in common with you and frozen. Heck, look at how long we have been at this. I expected my FWH to leap over mountains and give us recovery...while I remained angry with him to the core and reserved the right to LB with angry outbursts at will.

It wasn't until a couple of months ago when I discovered an email message my FWH had sent to a friend that indicated he was at least contemplating initiating email correspondance with yet another OW candidate.

Based on the situation, I knew and he learned that

Quote
Nothing says I’m mad at you like betrayal, eh?

We looked back and realized that dabbling in infidelity was a mechanism that FWH had always used to deal with his anger towards me.

Mind you, it might have been a simple as scouring over internet dating sites all the way up to his PA, but the coping mechanise was there, plain as day.

When we realized this, we both knew that we probably only had one chance left to recover because neither of us could continue as we had been living.

You and Frozen both have to want this, more than anything else and even tho you may have the heavy lifting to do, she has to work with you.

My efforts to stop LBing with Angry Outbursts have made a world of difference and we honestly have achieved more towards recovery since May than we had during the entire 3 1/2 years prior.

There does need to be a real sense of urgency here for both of you because you might be running out of time.

It is hard work, but the pay off is worth it.

Who
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 07:35 PM
Patriot,

I think that when one spouse has an A and the other spouse asks them to be transparent the FWS has choices.

Choice one is to say no. Easy and honest. Deal with the consequences.

Choice two say yes. Sub choices follow. Do it the very next day. Or as soon as possible. Or drag the feet.

This is really just PA behavior. IMVHO PA behviour is abusive to the spouse. It is meant to keep them off balance and it is manipulative.

My point on the 2x4's is not to say she is right. I believe that the LB's and angry outbursts are counter productive in the Face of PA behaviour. It gives the PA person what they want Victim status.

Quote
oh nevermind. You won't listen anyway, right?

You must be correct in that I deserve more angered responses and 2x4s.

I will listen to you. I will not say that right now you are doing what is correct to recover not reconcile your M.

I made a point to ask you which of the priciples that are pretty important are you implementing. You chose to ignore those.

You instead answered the lotus notes question.

In todays day and age almost every server based email give remote access.

So when will Froz get that from you?

Understand that:
Radical honesty, Transparency, POJA are you really, really working hard on?

A BS has a lot to deal with. At this time being honest on everything is important.

My 2x4 is that the why is important but the what you are going to do now is just as important.

Start today with Radical Honesty and Transparencey.
Posted By: ba109 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 10:09 PM
Quote
I was totally willing to sacrifice and expected her to sacrifice for me(let me off the hook for things so I didn't have to change them).

This is not sacrifice. This is acceptance, tolerance and/or conflict avoidance. You 'expected' this of frozen?

I'm confused by your use of the term 'sacrifice'. What kinds of things do you feel that you sacrificed for the benefit of a stronger relationship with frozen?
Posted By: committedandlovi Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/08/07 11:37 PM
He never started.

Oh...but he did. You just don't recognize it...or it doesn't meet your standards.

It is sad to see efforts go unrecognized when there are so many lost and sad betrayed spouses on this site who would give everything they own for their waywards to be doing half as much as he has been doing.

Again, if it isn't enough or up to your standard it might be advisable for you to make the decision to separate or divorce.

To continue to throw the affair in his face is totally unacceptable....no matter what the provocation is.

That is why Plan A is so beneficial to the betrayed person...it teaches them how to behave properly when confronted with wayward activity and when dealing with the fallout after the affair has stopped.

committed
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 12:44 AM
well....

Pat....

Its all well and good to wonder and figure out why you weren't a better man.

In the meantime starting BEING a better man.

You know how to do the right things. Start doing them. Today. Even if you haven't figured out the cause of your failures.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 02:59 AM
Quote
I made a point to ask you which of the priciples that are pretty important are you implementing. You chose to ignore those.

You instead answered the lotus notes question.

ignored? what questions? You mean the ones you answered for me like you know me?

Hence you won't listen.


which is fine.

the email server is not accessable from outside. I don't know who you have worked for, but this particular company has login requests for the bathroom.

I will drop this now. I am nitpicking your posts and you do have some things worthy of noting.

You delivery is not one of them.
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 03:42 AM
Patriot,

I am listening to you. I don't understand what part I have not listened to.

The point of the whole email thing is you told Froz you would. Nothing more, nothing less. You agreed to do that then admitted to delaying action.

That is PA.

That behavior is frustrating beyond belief.

I am a blunt person. I won't say you haven't started some of the decisons you have made are not right or fair.

My main point is this last set of decesions go against what you KNOW you should be doing.

That is it.

My delivery will always be blunt that is how I post.

If you don't want me posting to you I won't. I think it bothers you because you can see no gloves on truth in what I say.
Posted By: TruBluz Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 01:28 PM
Hello Patriot:

I post here rarely, but passive-aggression and conflict avoiding was such a key part of our marital issues that your post caught my eye.

I hope you realize what a huge amount of work you have already done and just how far you and your wife have come.

You have already identified yourself as a passive-aggressive person, and you understand the concepts of Imago and of MB.

You see in yourself that you are projecting the image of your step-monster onto your wife, and that you are using the tools of passive-aggression (proscrastination, lying, gaslighting, blameshifting) to try to disarm her and control her.

Many people would not even be open to those truths. That you are is huge. It's profound. It's the first step in fabulous.

But it's only a first step. From her post, it appears your wife is actively working to stop her part of the P/A dance by stopping her angry outbursts. Are you working to learn to express your emotions openly? That is the key to ending passive-aggression. Have you done any of the Imago exercises to learn to identify and express emotions?

They work. My husband was as firmly rooted in a passive-aggressive worldview as anyone I have ever heard or read about. He saw everyone as someone who was trying to control or thwart him in some way. And he used whatever tactics he could to protect himself from those perceived attempts at control.

Those tactics, combined with my own issues, left me as angry as it is possible to be and not be in jail.

Through IC and Imago MC he was able to learn to express his feelings and handle conflict appropriately and I was able to contain my anger. What he found was that the open expression of his thoughts and feelings engendered far less animosity than his passive-aggressive tactics. That in turn made him willing to drop the P/A tactics and truly make openness and honesty a priority.

Continuing on the path of healing will be a win-win for you and your wife, Patriot. There is no way she or anyone else will ever feel safe with a passive-aggressive spouse. It's not a possibility. And there is no way that you will feel safe either as long as that is your mindset. P/A people distrust those closest to them, no matter who those people are. That is no way to live.

You've come such a long way. If you go just a bit farther you will start to reap the benefits of your work.

Tru
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 02:56 PM
Patriot,

The issue here is trust. Plain and simple. The facts are:

You appear to be hiding emails.
You didn't do what you said you would do.
You are preventing frozen from viewing what she feels a need to view.
You continue to delay the viewing.


This behavior erodes basic trust, and delays further the reconciliation of the relationship.

Whether you call it PA, procrastination, or anything else, the end result remains the same.


If you are not able to allow her access to your work email remotely, then save your emails to disk or memory stick and take them home to her. Simply solved. Or, forward your emails to her. There are other ways to fix this problem, which you know exist, yet avoid.

It is in the avoidance of openness and solving the problem - ACTIVELY SOLVING THE PROBLEM TODAY - that you appear suspect, untrustworthy, and lacking in dedication to the marriage.

Do you see that?

And no matter how you color this - PA, procrastination, whatever - you still end up looking wrong.

Your solution is to actively fix it. Change YOUR behavior. You can only change your own behavior; when you do so, you will see a change in hers. This is not magical, it is real. Do it and watch the results.

To continue to do what you are currently doing - which is NOT changing - will result in the same circle dance, and the ultimate result is what you currently have: crisis.

SB
Posted By: Mulan Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 03:37 PM
Pat, I'll tell you what I've told my husband when it comes to this stuff:

You WILL always win.

You will always win.

Just as you have this time and all the other times.

You won and Froz lost.

Again.

You WILL always win.
Mulan
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 05:30 PM
I never once said that procrastination was not P/A behavior. I agree with you on it.

I never once tried to fight her on it either. I admitted it once I had my hand on it. fact.

So I understand what it is. And I stopped.

She gets the emails forwarded. Best I could do right now. It was the only option currently and though it is inconvenient for me, I know why I must do it. And so I am.

As far as winning... I do not agree. Maybe she lost... but I have not won in all of this. I find it short-sighted to think I truly win in this kind of thing. I disagree. I am not winning

So... I really don't want to debate P/A behaviors on this thread. We can do another for that if we need to.

I agree that P/A behavior is a portion of the answer to this thread though.

Not the only one. Awareness. Maturity. things like that.

Which reduces to not protecting my weaknesses. Not protecting frozen from my weaknesses.

Things like that.

Anyway... this is short because I need to go.

Oops! He posted under my name!
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 05:58 PM
oops
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 06:05 PM
I thought Froz' voice was suddenly much deeper.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Oh, those automatic sign ins...when convenience thwarts us from being present...hey, might even go to the how's of protection...)

LA
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 06:05 PM
TB,
thanks for your post. that was helpful and enlightening. And it reminds me of the difference THIS time over other times.

I am the one that admitted I had been procrastinating the issue. I am the one that linked that action to P/A behavior. I am the one that said I would do something about it. I am the one that did do something about it. I did not fight her. I did not try to cover up what I had done. I said 'oops, that was wrong and I will change that asap'.

it is THAT kind of action that is possible through growth on my part.

So progress is better than nothing.

What I did hurt her. Hurting her is not ok. I saw what I was doing as hurting her. I stopped.

pretty simple really.

Anyway, thanks for posting. I think our crisis is ending and I have a few things I need to do in the near future.

That said, I want to post later on this evening about "why". I want to try and tie it all up, if I can.
Posted By: schoolbus Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/09/07 08:16 PM
I'm glad you took action. Good thing.

Once we are through a crisis, we look back and sometimes say,

pretty simple really.


Other times it takes us two years to look back and say that.

And we wonder why it took us two years to ask the question in the first place. Or, maybe we asked it but avoided answering. Or maybe some other blend........but in the meantime, two years passed, and we found ourselves mired in the muck of things we could have, should have


solved


before, when we had the chance the first time around.


If we were only perfect, and not human. But that would take all the work out of it, wouldn't it?

SB
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/11/07 01:51 AM
I have been reading through the Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders book by Dr. Harley.

I find this immensely enlightening in discovering things about myself leading to the reasons why I had an affair. This was a very good book to read right now.

From reading this book I have determined a few things about myself that I hadn't even thought about.

The freeloader agreement is "I will do nothing in this relationship that does not come natural and if there are problems, I am leaving."

The renter agreement is "I will sacrifice as long as you sacrifice and I will stay here until something better comes along"

The buyer agreement is "I am committed to this relationship and I will do anything to show you care, learning new skills not natural to myself, but I will not sacrifice to do it. Giver and Taker will be balanced."

I think I was a renter when Frozen and I started dating. I was willing to sacrifice. I expected her to sacrifice. Short term solutions where the order of the day. Things like that.

The she and I moved in together and I traded in my renter agreement for a freeloader agreement. I did nothing that was outside of natural for me. I still sacrificed a little, but I used the fact that she and I lived together as a form of commitment and thus, threated this situation as "she's caught, so there is no need to work any more".

I think she still expected at least renter behavior, but wanted buyer behavior, and I perceived this as a form of control. And my P/A behavior was inflamed by this. So I attacked her deliberately because this situation was 'not fair' for me. But I didn't want to look like the bad guy, of course, so I did it secretly and in really terrible ways.

I am really saddened at this discovery. That I would be this way to someone. Mind messages telling me that she was my enemy and me using my 'skill' of pinpoint attack to make her pay for it. The skill of identifying a weakness in someone and exploiting it.

Really a terrible thing to do. And I felt entitled to do it because I was being wronged by her, I thought. She was treating my just like my step-mother, I thought. Trying to guilt me for not doing what she wanted(which was her wanting me to not be a freeloader, most likely). Constantly voicing displeasure with me(again.. likely upset about being with a freeloader and my perception of her voicing displeasure was overblown I think).

I never wanted to listen to her issues because they made me feel bad. And I was pissed at her for so long not just toughening up.

what a terrible way to treat someone.

I am so sorry that I did that to her.

So actions are the way to show true remorse, as she and I have talked. I understand that. If she was doing something to me that I wanted stopped, my interest in it being stopped. Not hearing her say she is sorry for it and not changing. I would be so pissed off at her and I would certainly not be interested in being around her. I would consider, over time, her to be my enemy. And I think this is where she has been from time to time.

So actions. And my plan.

I have done a few things Frozen has asked for, and some of them are becoming very habitual.

I am really trying to pay attention to my behavior with respect to the fact that she not pay a consequence for it. In the case where either she or I will pay a consequence for the result of something, I look for the way to make the consequence mine and not hers.

I need to finish the BRF book, which I am almost there. Read it pretty fast actually.

I am looking for a new job, since the one I have right now equates to stolen goods.

More again later.
Posted By: BringItOn Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/11/07 11:16 AM
Patriot,

I've been reading this thread with great interest; thank you for the insight. I have ordered the BRF book and am eagerly awaiting it. My H and I are a bit behind you and Frozen in recovery and I'm hoping my H can come around soon. What was the catalyst that prompted you to look internally for solutions?
Posted By: RIF Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/11/07 11:56 AM
Hey Patriot & Froz,

Don't know if you remember me or not... I spent a year here in 2004-2005 when I was deployed to Afghanistan. Well, I'm back for another tour so I'm back to MB!

I've been following your thread here and you're both getting some great advice. I don't really have any advice, but wanted to encourage you both.

Patriot - It's important to Froz that you find out the "Why" of your A so that you will know (and more importantly Froz will know) what you need to do in order to protect your M from an A. So keep digging and you WILL find out the "Why".

Once you've found out the "Why", the single best thing that you can do for Froz is to become an open book for her. If she says jump, you jump. If she has a question that you don't remember an answer to, don't just say "I don't know" or "I can't remember".... You tell Froz that you respect her question and that she deserves an accurate answer and that you would like a little time (no more than a day) to really search your soul for the answer... then you go to her and give her the answer. I knew when Mrs. RIF was really working on our rebuilding when she came up to me one day and said "RIF, I remembered the answer to one of your questions..." It blew me away! You've got to be willing to do that for Froz.

This isn't going to be easy Patriot, and it's not going to be "fun". But it's necessary for Froz to understand that YOU now understand just how much this hurt her. Until she starts feeling "safe" that you won't do this again, the questions will continue.

Patriot, I haven't been around much since 2005, but I know from reading your posts that you are committed to the M. You need to reassure Froz of that EVERY single day. Tell her that you love her... tell her that you care for her. She needs to hear that constantly from you... and most importantly, let your ACTIONS speak for you.



Hi Froz - I know this is hard for you. I guess one of the best things that you can do for Patriot is to let him know that you are committed to the M. I'm sure he knows this by now because you guys are still together. You have every right to be angry with Patriot when his actions are not trustworthy, or when he is defensive, but you must deal with your anger in a godly way, then let Patriot know that you are committed to rebuilding.... Patriot needs to hear that from time to time. I'm not saying that you have to praise him everytime he does something "good"... or that you have to thank him for doing the things that he SHOULD be doing. All that I'm saying is that Patriot needs to know that no matter how mad you are at him, that you are STILL committed to rebuilding this M. It will take some time and many consistent actions by Patriot before you even start to feel comfortable in this rebuilding process, but for now, please let Patriot know that you are committed to working on this with him.

I'm glad to see that you guys are still together and are working towards rebuilding... it really doesn't matter that it's taken two years. Those two years are in the past. What matters is that you are still on the road to rebuilding your M together... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I wish you both the best!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/13/07 04:03 AM
Discovering the why

A task that has proven more than small, for sure. I have reflected and reflected on myself and the many things I am and have done in the past. I have dug up regrets I didn’t even know I had, or rather had forgotten about. I have come to a conclusion about self-reflection, at least for me.

You never reach the finish line.

It is never over. You self-reflect constantly and adjust or don’t adjust your course accordingly. Even if it is only for a moment. “I should not have had my finger in the door when I shut it. I will make sure to watch my hand from now on”

The thing I find funny about my example is it also highlights the potential for ‘forgetting’ about this sometime later and ending up in the same place again. I know I have done that before. Hit my toe on the door frame and freeze to the wall in pain. Possibly a few blue words of choice to decorate the moment. And then I resolve to do something in order to change the outcome. All due to the pain. Then the pain goes away, some time passes… and then it happens again. Rinse and repeat.

So self-reflection is just endless. Now, I have to determine is this good or bad? I think it is good for me. It allows me to assess myself and my action and actually place something of a score on it. Did good. Did bad. Could have improved this here. Or there. And this is where it is good for me I think. I can determine what I am proud of and what I am not coming from me. To a degree. I think we all still need input from others because we don’t know all the answers nor make all the right decisions.

Self-reflection was not something I did in relationships. I have done course correction activities in my career and responsibilities.. but not my relationships. Probably pretty odd to see a senior non-commissioned officer act in such a way. Not that anyone would believe me, but in uniform is when I am most confident and most comfortable… and make the best decisions. I am an indecisive mess half the time at home… In uniform, I am decisive, a recognized leader and talented.

If only the DOD regulated relationships with females…

Well, anyway, self-reflection is a skill I am choosing to adopt. I want to practice this behavior.

So what about why? In my diatribe above I am trying to describe the fact that so many factors in my life and behavior point to this problem or could have been key parts of this issue that it seems short-sighted to point at one or only a few. But it seems overwhelming to point at them all and attempt to change them.

So what do I think was key in this downfall of mine? A downfall, I will remind myself that really screwed frozen over time and again with her thinking she was getting a good deal.. And then come to find out she was getting hosed. Ugh…

Lack of Character – Had I been made of stronger stuff at the time, I would not have had an affair. This is not an all-encompassing answer, as MEDC might suggest, but only a small portion. I could have had less character than most at the time and still gotten by without committing this offense. Didn’t happen that way though. The best way to deal with this is to keep one’s self ‘honest’ by considering consequences of the action. You have to consider the consequences for yourself and for others around you. Those of us who don’t are just time bombs waiting to go off, I think. Consequences are a valid boundary enforcement and teach people what is ok and not ok. It works that way for a reason, I bet. Consequences have to be considered. Sadly, they are not always. Not ignoring consequences for both Frozen and myself is one way I can affair-proof this marriage.

P/A behavior – This one, sadly, is one of the more scary ones that I have to work on. Due to my sideways anger and miss-interpretations of actions and feelings, I caused a lot of really horrible things to occur. On auto-pilot, for the most part, because it is so natural for me to sacrifice, acting like it is ok and then getting pissed about it later. Anyway, the only way I see this issue getting addressed is awareness and then openness. I am aware that I engage in passive aggression on occasion. That is step one. Now step two is to continue to talk openly with Frozen about the feelings I feel at the time I feel them. This is a pretty good option I think because she is usually very good at ‘seeing’ I feel something. So she asks. And it is my job to talk with her about it. And as long as she is receptive to this, I think it can work. She gets to know things about me and I get to practice openness. And I focus on win-win. Not me win only.

Immaturity – I would be a fool to think this had nothing to do with it. Flat out, it does. Not being big enough, strong enough or otherwise able to function like a mature adult is a key thing to consider for me. So how to become mature? A book I was reading on ’21 days to a better marriage’ framed it nicely. Immaturity is being incomplete or undeveloped in personal and emotional growth. The facets of that are detachment, control, irresponsibility and self-centeredness. Detachment is addressed by being open to frozen and not distancing myself. Control is addressed by allowing her the freedom she is right to have. Respecting her boundaries. Being responsible to her and not for her is the answer to number 3. Considering her and not only myself is the last answer. Simply doing these things would go a long distance in fixing issues we have.

Incorrect relationship agreement – She wants a buyer. She wants to be a buyer. I want the same things. And a buyer begins with POJA. I like POJA, actually. I see how it gives me power. And power is something I want. Not over her. Over me. I don’t have to agree to anything that I don’t agree to enthusiastically. Instead of giving away my power by thinking “she won’t let me…..” I can take my power back by saying “this is not ok with me”. Or by saying “I would like to discuss how we can come to an agreement on this issue” I did not do it on my recent job acquisition. I am facing the music of that issue by starting over on the job search. Who knows… maybe it will turn out a better job then I got. I have negotiated things since then. An issue dealing with my military career. She and I fully discussed it and came to an agreement. And we have stayed on the same team discussing it. It was enlightening for me to see POJA in action.

Honesty and openness about my daily actions – This is where the secret second life that Dr Harley talks about becomes available. If I had been open and honest about my daily life… even the ugly things, she could have said something about it. Also, I would have had to answer for mush smaller things like an inappropriate email to some woman instead of an entire affair. It could have certainly been a factor in stopping it before it started. And she would have probably been on the side of or relationship. I certainly wasn’t. To address this now, I have been writing a journal of dealings with potential threats to the marriage. This has been quite a good habit actually. In fact, to enforce the email issue, I stuck a postit to the journal and that very next day I was forwarding emails for her to look at.

Awareness of any reliable relationship skills – not through anyone’s fault but my own, I was of aware of good relationship skills. No love bank. No love busters. No cause and effect. Ignorance at its most reckless. See, a person can learn to drive a car. But if they never learn the appropriate side of the road to drive on, it can turn out pretty bad. Maybe they only learned at night, in a small town with no one out and about. Either side of the road works then. Not in daytime traffic downtown. Awareness can save your but in a minute for sure. Anyway, example aside, the point is awareness is no excuse for making mistakes, but it is an explanation. It was totally my responsibility to become aware before stepping into a situation. To address awareness, I have participated here, read a few books and learned core principles of MB and Imago, been to come counseling and had several discussions with Frozen about these issues.


I think by addressing the areas above where I was weak, I would be going a long way in making our relationship affair-proof.

However, I have caught on to something additional lately. Meeting ENs is important right now. That might sound really stupid but given the amount of damage caused by me, I have made it a point to focus all my efforts on stopping that. However, I have come to the realization that I could make the relationship as safe as possible for Frozen and it would not be enough because for her to fall in love with me, I have to meet ENs to the point of achieving that amount that makes her fall in love with me. So I am going to add some work on that also. I have put a few in here and there, but I am thinking of ways of how to ramp that up to a higher amount of care. I really did think that she would be happy if I just stopped doing the bad stuff. But she won’t. And she shouldn’t She deserves a healthy and happy relationship. The is one where LBs are removed and ENs are met.

So after think for a while, this is what I have come up with.

Opinions?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/13/07 10:30 AM
What are you doing Pat, to work on your own self-diagnosed P/A problems? Are you seeing an I/C?

Yes you need to stop lovebusting and yes you should meet some needs, but until you really take action to fix this problem, your marriage is in serious danger.

Even if Froz leaves, the next relationship you are in will not be any better, since YOU are the common denominator here.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/13/07 12:16 PM
Currently, I am not seeing an IC. I am not opposed to it however.

The best weapon I have against myself in this is to continue to talk openly with frozen and discuss my feelings. She asks a good amount of questions and in most cases anything I would have built into P/A ammo usually gets dealt with. Or placed out in the open.

Honestly, I think IC would be a good thing for me for a little bit, but I have to look into how to get into it.

I think I might do that today. I will report back what I find. I will report today. So as to not procrastinate this.

I fully realize that it is me with the P/A issues. Thanks for posting... based on my previous employment, I really hadn't looked into counseling. I will give it a look today.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/13/07 01:12 PM
Today is a good idea.

The point is, that its your job to protect your wife from your weaknesses.

If you don't take active steps to repair this P/A behavior, then filling needs and avoiding LBs is really moot.

First you must address this problem and ensure that Froz will never be hurt by it again.

If you can't do that, the rest of your effort is a waste of time for both of you.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/13/07 01:55 PM
made an appointment for monday to get a referral.
Posted By: Mulan Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/13/07 02:25 PM
Quote
If you don't take active steps to repair this P/A behavior, then filling needs and avoiding LBs is really moot.

First you must address this problem and ensure that Froz will never be hurt by it again.

This jumped out at me because:

When someone uses P/A behaviour to manage their life, hurting their partner IS a perfectly acceptable way to solve a problem or conflict. If the partner protests that your actions are hurting them - so what? It's Win/Lose and Losing hurts. You know they're hurt because they Lost. What's their point? They should just accept that and suck it up and stop b*tching because somebody has to Lose and they should learn to be a good Loser.

When someone uses POJA to manage their life, hurting their partner IS NO LONGER AN ACCEPTABLE OPTION.

That's the monumental difference I see between using Win/Lose and using POJA.
Mulan
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/13/07 06:19 PM
Quote
When someone uses POJA to manage their life, hurting their partner IS NO LONGER AN ACCEPTABLE OPTION.

I totally agree
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/14/07 12:31 PM
after thinking about it, I wanted to thank you Mulan. Normally, I cringe when I see you have posted to me because it feels like your posts are ussualy dripping with hatred for me.

Maybe you do. Maybe you don't.

The fact is this last post from you was a very good one from my perspective and lately it has been a message I have been able to hear.

Understanding that it is NOT ok for frozen to be hurt in the process of me getting something is a message I can hear. And after reading the BRF book, I prefer the method of POJA for my life over the previous ways I have been doing business.

Anyway, I wanted to say thank you. Your post was heard and it falls in line with what I want to do in this relationship.

So thanks.
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/14/07 02:57 PM
Patriot

I don't think anyone knows you enough to hate you or even dislike you.

If I were to make a guess it is some of your actions, or inactions that people dislike.

There is a difference between hating a person or an action.

I hate it when my wife grits her teeth but I do not hate my wife.

I hate it when my son sings the oscar mayer bologna song 50 times in a row in the car but I don't hate my son.

I disapprove of some things people do but it doesn't mean I dislike them.

Part of this excercise is to extracate yourself from the victim role when your actions cause a reaction. Or when your inaction cause a reaction.

Just a thought.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/14/07 08:34 PM
After reading your post, I wonder something.

How do you tell if you are actually the victim of something or just receiving the reactions from your own decisions?

How can I tell if I am the victim of some repressed anger or if I am just getting what I have coming to me?

Do I never get to make that determination again because I had an affair?

Like for the rest of my life, I just have to consider that I am being treated fairly by all and that ANY bad feelings I get from frozen or others words are just what I deserve?

Just a simple answer to those questions without assuming what I am after in this would work best for me.

All I am after is an adjustment of my own thoughts so I don't go through the same powerless feelings that usually have me reacting in a poor way.

Anyone?
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/14/07 08:52 PM
You can never be a victim if you decided on the course of action.

Look at all the people today claiming victim status with the housing market.

Stupid maybe, victim no.

victim - a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency (definition)

I would say go to the true starting point of the situation.

So affair world or not.

My wife asks me too take out the cat droppings.

I agree to take out the cat droppings.

I then don't take out the cat droppings.

Then my wife gets mad at me.

Am I a victim of my wifes anger?

Repeat that over and over. Wife gets even more angry the 100th time she asks me to do something that I don't do.

She is even more upset.

Am I the victim of her anger?

Now if you walk in the door and your wife punches you in the head because a telemarketer called her 5 times today.

I would say you are a victim.

The reason I pointed it out to you is my wife claims victim status a lot.

It is really more ownership in my book.

I own the not doing what you asked me to do. Therefore you have a right to your feelings of being upset.

I do not own the telemarketer, you have no right to be upset with me.
Posted By: Mulan Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/14/07 09:28 PM
yer welcome pat
Mulan
Posted By: smu Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 01:57 AM
Hi Pat,

Quote
How can I tell if I am the victim of some repressed anger or if I am just getting what I have coming to me? Do I never get to make that determination again because I had an affair?Like for the rest of my life, I just have to consider that I am being treated fairly by all and that ANY bad feelings I get from frozen or others words are just what I deserve?

Those are really good questions. I have thought about this kind of thing myself as I struggle not to act P/A at times. When its a life long belief that its dangerous or wrong to express anger openly, its really, really hard to start to do this.

IMO, part of the answer is yes, you are NEVER again a victim. BUT, the reason for this has nothing to do with having had an A. It most certainly does not mean that you deserve whatever you get from people.

When we were children, we had no control over much of our lives. People really could control us if they wanted, by not feeding, clothing, allowing, approving, caring or loving us in the way we deserved, because we were innocent children.

As adults, this is not the case. No one can ever control us, because we have choices. Others choose their words or actions. Then, we can respond. We can choose to speak up for ourselves. We can choose not to tell others that we don't allow ourselves to be talked to in that way. We can even choose to not expose ourselves to that person ever again. We can respectfully ask for what we need or want.

Peoples motives for saying things will probably always be mixed. It may be that they have repressed anger. It may not be. We can't know. Sometimes even they don't know. The point is, it doesn't matter. Because we draw boundaries around ourselves, and choose what behaviours we will and won't accept, what choices we want to make, and what our needs are. This is called self respect.

You don't "get" bad feelings from others. Bad feelings are not a disease. Your feelings are separate from others feelings. Others may feel down, depressed, angry, upset. Thats ok. They have a right to feel whatever they feel.
BUT if they yell, make disrespectful or sarcastic comments, withhold affection, act passive aggressively or outright aggressively or otherwise express those feelings in a hurtful or disrespectful way, that is probably not ok with most people.
Posted By: smu Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 07:44 AM
An example...

I have a friend who was raped. It was extremely traumatic and incredibly painful. Was she treated fairly? Obviously not. Is she a victim? No.

Even though she was in a lot of pain, she waited till the fog cleared and then she responded.
That man is now in prison.

Despite her terrible experience, she has self-respect. She knows she is a strong, brave and honest woman, who can and does think and act in her best interests, no matter what comes her way.

It doesn't matter the circumstances...grave mistakes, horribly unfair events, illnesses... we can choose either to respond with self respect, or to deny responsibility, blame others or the universe, and allow ourselves to be victimised.
Posted By: TogetherAlone Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 01:50 PM
Patriot

Quote
How can I tell if I am the victim of some repressed anger or if I am just getting what I have coming to me? Do I never get to make that determination again because I had an affair?Like for the rest of my life, I just have to consider that I am being treated fairly by all and that ANY bad feelings I get from frozen or others words are just what I deserve?

I think this is a useful question, and the start of a productive journey.

When someone say something that makes us uncomfortable, our natural reaction is to defend against it. If defence feels impossible, we might go to the other extreme and angrily acknowledge our 'culpability' in a way that precludes discussion.

Both of these responses are essentially a way of avoiding the issue and getting out of doing the difficult adult work.

Which is...assessing whether the other's complaint is reasonable, and dealing with it responsibly and respectfully.

The first hard part of that is assessing the 'reasonable', especially when the only gauge you have is a distorted worldview warped by FOO issues and a generous hit of entitlement. THIS is where you need IC to help you get your perspective into healthier shape.

(The second hard part is being able to admit to your own poor behaviour.)

For a start on this, I would suggest you recognise that reacting to Frozen's complaints with irritation, resentment and anger is NOT a reasonable way for an adult to behave. The sense of justification for behaving this way is coming from a very young, very childish, very STUCK place within you. Frozen has every right to present you with her feelings, and it's your responsibility as an adult to take those seriously and accept that they may tell you something about yourself that you don't like. If she really is being unreasonable, and attacking you unfairly, you will eventually (this needs work) be able to see that, and at that point can respond in a measured and self-directed way.

Here's something that will hurt, but it's a place to start... Your step-mother considered you a spoiled, indulged and overprivileged kid. What if there was some truth in that?

<Steps well back out of the blast zone...>

TA
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 02:07 PM
I think TA is making a brilliant point.

Pat ~ I insisted that Froz talk about herself and deal with HER issues long ago. She is now in a place where she can identify what is yours and what is her issue.

You need to deal with YOUR stuff before you start talking about her stuff.

She's done the work, you haven't. It's waaaaaaaaaaay premature to start complaining that you are a victim of her repressed anger.

And believe me, she was FAR angerier when she first started posting here. She's done alot of work since then.

I am willing to bet - your discomfort is coming from you, not from her.
Posted By: smartcookie Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 03:30 PM
Pat,

You seem to be making progress identifying your "why". And you're looking at ways to change your behavior. I think that's great. But I'd like to suggest that unless you figure out how to change your perspective, all the behavioral changes you make may not be deep enough to be permanent.

TruBluz mentioned that her husband had to change is "world view" in order to make deep and lasting changes in the way he behaved. TogetherAlone just touched on the same theme. Earlier, Weaver suggested you explore the "fear" that compels you to continue to act the way you do. I think these are all very important points... and I hope you're keying into them.

You developed some powerful defense mechanisms as a boy... and I think they will continue to control the way you behave... despite your best efforts to rise above them... until you learn to undo the damage that was done and address the way you view yourself and the rest of the world.

Any luck finding an IC? Did you check out that book I mentioned way back when?

Keep plugging away... you're getting there.

--SC
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 04:43 PM
Quote
You can never be a victim if you decided on the course of action.

I disagree with this statement. Having certain portions of information hidden from you with the intention of you not factoring it in seems to be a victim situation. And you chose, right? But you chose from not all info pertinent to the situation.

The rest of it is fine.

Odd thing is, victim status really doesn’t get you anything. At least not me. Anyone else seems to claim it and people want to look at how they are getting hurt. I claim it and it somehow ends up being my own fault anyway. Ergo…removal of victim status. And I just end up sitting here thinking no one listens to me and what’s the point in trying to expose my feelings when no one seems interested in hearing them, but instead wants to tell me how they are all jacked up.

Anyway, victim status isn’t anything that is producing something for me… so I will work on not trying to get it. There is no payoff in trying to get it. In fact, there is only more pissing and moaning about the issue if I seem to walk down the path… so I just need to drop it. But I am struggling with the idea that I am to just trust frozen and you all with your 2x4s and advice and I am requested to empathize and understand … yet I don’t feel I get the same things in return. And maybe I don’t get the same things in return because the feelings I feel, that I want empathy for, are caused by me… so who would want to empathize with a person that victimizes themselves.

Hmmm….that was an interesting thought

Thanks for the reminder on boundaries, smu. That is helpful.

Quote
Here's something that will hurt, but it's a place to start... Your step-mother considered you a spoiled, indulged and overprivileged kid. What if there was some truth in that?

Maybe there is some truth to it. In my mind, a rich kid is described this way. A kid that gets anything and everything they want, with the parents showering them with love and affection. So on and so forth. As I previously stated, Dad worked a blue collar job making enough to feed and cloth us and provide an acceptable lifestyle. We were not out on the town every weekend. I did not have a room full of every toy imaginable. After my Mother died, life came to a screeching halt, actually. I was active in a few organizations, taking piano lessons and such. All stopped. My life became latch-key kid, with Dad gone before I awoke and not home until I had been home for 3 hours. I was 9. I remember watching a lot of “Good Times.”. We went to a local hamburger joint about once or twice a week.

I had always considered that SHE called me spoiled, indulged and over privileged because her baseline was an abusive home situation and very little room in the budget for anything. Two kids, single working mother that was a school teacher. Stuff like that. Seemed reasonable. Still does.

But you don’t have to run away thinking I will explode at what you have to say. If I were truly interested in changing my thinking, then I would remain calm and tell you that I was offended, if in fact I was. Attacking is a childish thing to do. Anyway, I am not angry at what you have to say. It is a valid question. I just don’t happen to think there is much too it. That said, I am thinking about it.

But, I will agree that frozen saying her feelings is no reason for me to get apprehensive. I am still learning how to work in a relationship instead of use someone in a relationship. I do get defensive sometimes, however, because I se how she processes information and sometimes I disagree with how she does it. That is my right. I can assess anything I want to. But I have to find a way to assess how she is treating ME without ignoring her feelings.


Bramblerose..
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And believe me, she was FAR angerier when she first started posting here. She's done alot of work since then.

Lol… maybe you forget but I lived with her all this time. So no need to remind me she was angrier I was here. But you are correct that she has done a load of work and made very big improvements.

I know I need to do work too. So that’s why I am talking about it.

Also, I do believe TB is right in that I will have to change my thoughts on a big level to stop the issues form continuing. I understand that. I am trying to attack the thoughts.

It is obvious to me that P/A run rampant is a big motivator for making mistakes like having an affair.
Posted By: TogetherAlone Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 05:23 PM
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In my mind, a rich kid is described this way. A kid that gets anything and everything they want, with the parents showering them with love and affection.

'Spoiled' and 'indulged' is not necessarily about those kinds of things. It can often be about an attitude towards the child that is well-intentioned but unhealthy - failing to impose necessary discipline, indulging poor behaviour, giving the child the impression they are 'better' than other kids, and so on.

Only children are, I think, more likely to get this kind of treatment. (I'm an only child myself.)

A child whose mother has died is, I suspect, likely to be treated with extra attention and sympathy by adults and other children?

Whether this is close to the mark or not, I would ask that you try to see the situation from your step-mother's perspective - NOT from the viewpoint that she was wrong but it was an understandable mistake, but from the viewpoint that her opinion had some tiny element of truth.

Somewhere along the line, Patriot, between birth and three years ago, you developed character patterns that have lead you to relationship disaster. Your actions have been those of self-indulgence, lack of respect for the needs and rights of others, relationship greediness, unwillingness to co-operate, and callousness. Those character patterns didn't develop in a fortnight..and they won't disappear in a fortnight, either.

I note this part of what you said:

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If I were truly interested in changing my thinking, then I would remain calm and tell you that I was offended, if in fact I was.

So, you're not interested in changing your thinking? Why? What would you lose if you had a different picture of the young Patriot in his sad situation - if you lost the 'myth'?

TA
Posted By: frognomore Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 05:52 PM
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I disagree with this statement. Having certain portions of information hidden from you with the intention of you not factoring it in seems to be a victim situation. And you chose, right? But you chose from not all info pertinent to the situation.

Then we will agree to disagree.

You may be uninformed but you are not a victim.

But again I don't like the whole "VICTIM" mentality.

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Odd thing is, victim status really doesn’t get you anything
Nope not really.. Again though why would you want to be a victim?
What does being a victim entitle you to?

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Anyone else seems to claim it and people want to look at how they are getting hurt. I claim it and it somehow ends up being my own fault anyway. Ergo…removal of victim status. And I just end up sitting here thinking no one listens to me and what’s the point in trying to expose my feelings when no one seems interested in hearing them, but instead wants to tell me how they are all jacked up.

This is a defeatist mentality. In what way are you the victim in anything?

My wife cheated on me. As long as I sat around as a victim nothing was going to happen.

What is one of the first thigs a BS hears here.

REalize your part in the deterioration of the M before the A.

If you had filled the EN's not LB'd filled the love bank. Your FWS or WS would not have strayed.

As a BS we own Part of that therefore we cannot claim victim status.

Eat that crap sandwich when you find out your spouse was with someone else. LOL. It ain't easy. They don't even serve any condiments with that one.

Victim status will never produce anything for anybody except a miserable life.

You cannot look at the way you were harmed in every situation. You need to look at the situation as a whole and take your part.

You own your decesions wether you felt fully informed or not.

You own your choices.

Do not look for sympathy, do not look for empathy. Look for a solution to the problem that makes you feel as though you need those things.

I can empathize or sympathize with someone who lost their job because the company went bankrupt. I can't do the same for the person that lost their job because of poor performance and bad attendance.

I will give you what happened in my life.

My wife wanted to claim victim status when I got angry.

I would raise my voice or yell or call her a name. Some of those things are absolutely wrong.

I should never call my wife a name. I think I am entitled to raising my voice.

Now my wife does something/anything that she knows will upset me. Then I find out.

Somewhere along the line I yell and call her a name. (again I will fully admit I was wrong for doing that).

Now she is the victim of my cruelty. I am so mean and so horrible.

She will tell the world she was the victim. (she convienently left out I found out she spent $500 on a new purse and lied about it. or something like that.)

So now. I hardly even raise my voice. I have a lot of patience. If I get angry there is usually a reason for it.

The reason gets' lost because she is waiting for me to slip up and do something that makes her the victim.

Nothing ever gets accomplished that way.

If you want to accomplish something own what you did. Discuss that and only that. Then move forward.

When you do something wrong it is not time to discuss what she did wrong.

Discuss what she did wrong or what you don't like when it comes up.

Again in my life.

I will say I don't like that you just did that. With the hope we can discuss what happened.

Instead I will get. Well you...... Very counter productive.

I think honestly that may be what is happening in your M.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 06:05 PM
TA,

It was confusing, how I said it... but what I meant is that I am interested in changing my thinking. And in support of that, instead of getting upset at the mention of something I might not like, I chose to listen and attempt to think on it from a perspective other than my own.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 06:14 PM
thanks frog
Posted By: rprynne Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 06:52 PM
I think the "why" is because you lack courage. This is not a 2x4 or meant to offend, but my guess is this is what you struggle with.

We can all talk through the "ingredients" of infidelity. Let's work backwards.

1) During your A, you were selfish, immature, had opportunity, and it felt good.
2) When you started your A, you were selfish, immature, had opportunity, and you wanted to see what it felt like.
3) You wanted to see what it felt like because you were unhappy and you were experimenting
4) You made a poor choice of what to experiment with because you were selfish and immature.
5) You were selfish and immature because either you changed your value system due to unhappiness or you were always selfish and immature.
6) If you changed your value system, you did it because doing things within your value system no longer made you happy.
7) If you were always selfish and immature, its because it was reinforced during your upbringing.
8) You were born selfish and immature, as we all were.

One can pick any of these and dig a little deeper. Why was I unhappy? How was this or that re-inforced? How did my environment create opportunity?

I'm as empathetic as anyone. I understand the benefits of introspection, of analyzing people's motivations and behaviors. But, IMHO, knowing the why's I felt this way or that doesn't flick the switch and make recovery a breeze. Many times, its a long winded exercise that's true goal is to find that one external thing in your past, that thing you had no real control over, that a consensus of people (and most notably Froz) will agree to say, "Ah yes, but for that, you would not have cheated". This abdicates your responsibility and eases the mind.

I'd say to you, their are thousands of other Patriots and Froz's out there. They had similar upbringings, similar environments, similar stress and concerns. Similar external environments. I guarantee you that many of those Patriots did not have an A and courage was the difference.

At any point in the path above you could have acted courageously and ended things.

P/A is not courage. Denial is not courage. Conflict avoidance is not courage.

Courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is facing your fear. Facing your fear makes you vulnerable. When you are vulnerable, and another cares for you, protects you, keeps you from harm, you feel very connected.

What are you afraid of?
Posted By: TogetherAlone Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 09:07 PM
I agree with rprynne that affairs are down to selfishness and immaturity.

Trouble is, most adults don't see the selfishness and immaturity in themselves. There's rarely a moment when we think "Gosh, I need to grow up a bit here".

The unevolved aspects of ourselves show up only when we fall short of the expectations of our peer group, or when we find ourselves betraying values we're 'supposed' to hold.

But when we do that, our tendency is to rationalise the anomaly away. We pin the blame on others; we tell ourselves we're 'owed' the lapse; we imagine ourselves as more enlightened than the sheep around us; we tell ourselves we're dancing to a different drummer; we normalise the lapse by telling ourselves that most others do it too; we minimise the consequences; we demonise others; we see ourselves as rebellious anti-heroes, or sexual sirens, or wronged martyrs; we pride ourselves on our sophistication; we maximise the 'benefits' of the lapse; we tell ourselves the lure was irrestistable,and would have been so for anyone, we hang out with people who are like-minded....and so on, and on...

Perhaps a good way to explore the weaknesses of the self is to take each betrayal one has perpetrated, work out which values were ignored, and ask the question "What did I tell myself to make it OK to do that?"

Finding the lie in the rationalisation is where the maturity comes from.

TA
Posted By: noodle Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/15/07 10:00 PM
I think indulgence and neglect run hand in hand personally.

I was both indulged and neglected and abused and spoiled all at the same time so I don't think it's odd or even unusual for that to be the way it goes.

Think about it...it is EASIER to indulge a misbehavior than to take the time to correct, discipline, and retrain.

Since your mom was a SAHM I assume that the lions share of child training went to her and your dad was comfortable and used to having a peripheral/supportive role...he seems to [based on your description] not have realised it was his turn to step up to the plate and try to fill both roles.

A step parent is NOT prepared to provide the same care and nurture and devotion that you had been served 3 squares a day of up until your mothers death.

It is unreasonable to expect a step parent to love you unconditionally as though you were her own and quite predictably she did not. On the few [very few] occasions I have seen genuine love between step parents and their step children which I would equate to what exists between themselves and their natural children it was usually a circumstance in which the step parent assumed that role very EARLY in the childs life and usually they were the ONLY mom or dad the child has ever known.

My point in saying this is to point out that EVERYONE has areas of poor discipline or indulgence and a step parent will more likely HATE you for them than help you overcome them [because others peoples kids are annoying brats when they show less than immaculate and perfect manners, motivations, habits etc] and the entire scenario is just better avoided in my honest and best judgement.

That not having been the case it is entirely plausable to just ASSUME that there are underdeveloped pieces of your character that are no more mature today than they were when your real character training stopped ...how could it be otherwise? Character is like muscle...the more training it gets the bigger and stronger it becomes... underused they stay small and weak and atrophied. Allow them to atrophy enough and you can become crippled in some area.

So really all you need is a consistant and reliable source of "reality check" [IC could possibly provide this IF you are selective about who you choose] to keep you accountable in your perspective and to start to work those muscles and learn and remember how to use them until they move as naturally and smoothly [or at least close] as all of the muscles you use every day to be successfull in your strong areas.

I don't believe in creating pathology and I don't believe that you are truly a sick man...yet...because I haven't seen you TRY and be unable to flex those muscles.

I think they are sitting there just as healthy and with as much potential as anyone else.

I completely believe that you CAN use them...that you are intelligent and capable of the task.

We can talk more about the role of personal discipline if you want to sometime..it plays a very big role in getting from point a to point b.
Posted By: 5outof6aintbad Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 10:30 AM
I didn't read your whole thread and maybe someone's said this already - but look at the notable posts thread on GQ2 for Pittman's catalogue of the reasons for infidelity - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=1

He listed all the reasons why I'd been unfaithful.
Posted By: smartcookie Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 11:36 AM
5/6... any idea what page of that 11-page thread the list os on?
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 11:44 AM
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Odd thing is, victim status really doesn’t get you anything. At least not me. Anyone else seems to claim it and people want to look at how they are getting hurt. I claim it and it somehow ends up being my own fault anyway. Ergo…removal of victim status. And I just end up sitting here thinking no one listens to me and what’s the point in trying to expose my feelings when no one seems interested in hearing them, but instead wants to tell me how they are all jacked up.

Oh victim status gets you plenty. ESPECIALLY as a P/A! (And stop sulking, holey moley Pat!)

When I am a victim, I take no ownership in the miserable situation I am in. As along as I have no ownership, I do not need to examine my own contribution, and therefore, don't need to change.

As long as I am a victim, I expect other people to change so that I can be happy.

Victimhood is safe and comfortable. It gets me attention. (Oh poor baby, I can't believe you get jacked around like that!)

I'll tell you the same thing that I told Froz when she moaned and groaned and complained about what a jerk you were...and how you hurt her feelings...and how you treated her badly...

I told her to examine how SHE was contributing to the situation. We didn't pick you apart and say Oh Poor Froz.

She was told to turn that finger pointing back on herself and examine what SHE was doing that contributed.

So should you.

You are not a victim even though you are trying very hard to be that.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 02:49 PM
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Victimhood is safe and comfortable.

I am not getting "oh poor baby' from anyone... so victimhood is not really all that safe. Certainly not fulfilling.

And currently, I am not trying very hard to be a victim.

Just last night she and I had a discussion where we negotiated some things and it went very well. I see where shooting for win-win is a much better option than win-lose for me. Not just her. Me too.

So that is what I am after.

I fully understand that being in victim mood does not get anything resolved. I recognize it and it is against what I am doing. Trying to resolve.

thanks for the reminder

I'm done with sulking.

Noodle,
I would very much like to hear about the role of personal discipline in getting from a to b. So post away.
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 03:54 PM

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Courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is facing your fear. Facing your fear makes you vulnerable. When you are vulnerable, and another cares for you, protects you, keeps you from harm, you feel very connected.

What are you afraid of?
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 03:54 PM
Hey! How did THAT get there??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 04:22 PM
I find it odd to answer questions like this one.

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What are you afraid of?

The tense hangs me up. Right at this moment, I am not afriad of the things that had me acting those ways. What I am afraid of right now is the amount of damage caused to you and that it might be irreparable.

The tense is present. What I was afraid of was intimacy, being open and rejected, abandoned, not getting what I wanted, being told what I wanted was evil or wrong, that happiness would never be available for me and that I was making the wrong decisions.

all of that driven by lack of self-respect.

Here is something I figured out.

When are people are capable of doing evil? Always.

When are people likely to do it? When they lack self-respect.

It is lack of self-respect that "allows" people to "accidentally" do many bad things.

Do you think a murderer or rapist respects themselves? I don’t. If they did, they wouldn’t do those kinds of things. Or I bet they would be less likely.

So, what I conclude is that increasing self-respect would be a very good way to affair proof our marriage.

And how do you increase that? Noodle’s personal disciple discussion would no doubt shed light on what to do, but certainly personal discipline would do it. Standing up for what is right, like the values of marriage would do it.

That’s what I think.

If people can be affected in subtle ways by making wrong decisions, like me taking the job where we talked about people ‘know’ they have poisoned themselves and aren’t quite right until they fix it… then making the right decisions should certainly have the opposite effect.



Afraid. I was afraid of not being good enough. And in sitting around pining over that, it is what I became. Not good enough.

That is no longer acceptable and we are turning that around.

And you know what I am starting with. I told you this morning.
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 04:36 PM
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And you know what I am starting with. I told you this morning.


SF?
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 04:44 PM
lol. no. but of course that is part of the plan.

I mean it is a need and all...
Posted By: noodle Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 04:46 PM
I was going to tie self respect and ethical behavior together but you did it already.

Yes, my self respect holds me accountable more certainly than ANY policing effort ever could.

Every time I have given you advice about a specific action to take it has been for the purpose of recapturing your self respect.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 04:52 PM
crap. and I was so looking forward to dicsussions with pasta.

robbed.
Posted By: noodle Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 05:01 PM
Not to worry there is more to come...that was just my FIRST point.
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 06:52 PM
you have more points?

I look forward to it.
Posted By: 5outof6aintbad Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 10:55 PM
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5/6... any idea what page of that 11-page thread the list os on?
1
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 11:09 PM
This?

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Beyond Betrayal: Life After Infidelity

By: Frank Pittman
Summary: Not all affairs are alike; some are even accidental.

Hour after hour, day after day in my office I see men and women who have been screwing around. They lead secret lives, as they hide themselves from their marriages. They go through wrenching divorces, inflicting pain on their children and their children's children. Or they make desperate, tearful, sweaty efforts at holding on to the shreds of a life they've betrayed. They tell me they have gone through all of this for a quick thrill or a furtive moment of romance. Sometimes they tell me they don't remember making the decision that tore apart their life: "It just happened." Sometimes they don't even know they are being unfaithful. (I tell them: "If you don't know whether what you are doing is an infidelity or not, ask your spouse.") From the outside looking in, it is insane. How could anyone risk everything in life on the turn of a screw? Infidelity was not something people did much in my family, so I always found it strange and noteworthy when people did it in my practice. After almost 30 years of cleaning up the mess after other people's affairs, I wrote a book describing everything about infidelity I'd seen in my practice. The book was Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy (Norton). I thought it might help. Even if the tragedy of AIDS and the humiliation of prominent politicians hadn't stopped it, surely people could not continue screwing around after reading about the absurd destructiveness of it. As you know, people have not stopped having affairs. But many of them feel the need to write or call or drop by and talk to me about it. When I wrote Private Lies, I thought I knew everything there was to know about infidelity. But I know now that there is even more.

ACCIDENTAL INFIDELITY

All affairs are not alike. The thousands of affairs I've seen seem to fall into four broad categories. Most first affairs are cases of accidental infidelity, unintended and uncharacteristic acts of carelessness that really did "just happen." Someone will get drunk, will get caught up in the moment, will just be having a bad day. It can happen to anyone, though some people are more accident prone than others, and some situations are accident zones.

Many times a young man has started his career as a philanderer quite accidentally when he is traveling out of town on a new job with a philandering boss who chooses one of a pair of women and expects the young fellow to entertain the other. The most startling dynamic behind accidental infidelity is misplaced politeness, the feeling that it would be rude to turn down a needy friend's sexual advances. In the debonair gallantry of the moment, the brazen discourtesy to the marriage partner is overlooked altogether.

Both men and women can slip up and have accidental affairs, though the most accident-prone are those who drink, those who travel, those who don't get asked much, those who don't feel very tightly married, those whose running buddies screw around, and those who are afraid to run from a challenge. Most are men.

After an accidental infidelity, there is clearly the sense that one's life and marriage have changed. The choices are:

1. To decide that infidelity was a stupid thing to do, to confess it or not to do so, but to resolve to take better precautions in the future;

2. To decide you wouldn't have done such a thing unless your husband or wife had let you down, put the blame on your mate, and go home and pick your marriage to death;

3. To notice that lightning did not strike you dead, decide this would be a safe and inexpensive hobby to take up, and do it some more;

4. To decide that you would not have done such a thing if you were married to the right person, determine that this was meant to be, and declare yourself in love with the stranger in the bed.

ROMANTIC INFIDELITY

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your fife, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads--at least for a while.

MARITAL ARRANGEMENTS

All marriages are imperfect, and probably a disappointment in one way or another, which is a piece of reality, not a license to mess around with the neighbors. There are some marriages that fail to provide a modicum of warmth, sex, sanity, companionship, money. There are awful marriages people can't get all the way into and can't get all the way out of, divorces people won't call off and can't go through, marriages that won't die and won't recover. Often people in such marriages make a marital arrangement by calling in marital aides to keep them company while they avoid living their life. Such practical affairs help them keep the marriage steady but distant. They thus encapsulate the marital deficiency, so the infidel can neither establish a life without the problems nor solve them. Affairs can wreck a good marriage, but can help stabilize a bad one.

People who get into marital arrangements are not necessarily the innocent victims of defective relationships. Some set out to keep their marriages defective and distant. I have seen men who have kept the same mistress through several marriages, arranging their marriages to serve some practical purpose while keeping their romance safely encapsulated elsewhere. The men considered it a victory over marriage; the exploited wives were outraged.

I encountered one woman who had long been involved with a married man. She got tired of waiting for him to get a divorce and married someone else. She didn't tell her husband about her affair, and she didn't tell her affaire about her marriage. She somehow thought they would never find out about one another. After a few exhausting and confusing weeks, the men met and confronted her. She cheerfully told them she loved them both and the arrangement seemed the sensible way to have her cake and eat it too. She couldn't understand why both the men felt cheated and deprived by her efforts to sacrifice their lives to satisfy her skittishness about total commitment.

Some of these arrangements can get quite complicated. One woman supported her house-husband and their kids by living as the mistress of an older married man, who spent his afternoons and weekend days with her and his evenings at home with his own children and his sexually boring wife. People averse to conflict might prefer such arrangements to therapy, or any other effort to actually solve the problems of the marriage.

Unhappily married people of either gender can establish marital arrangements to help them through the night. But men are more likely to focus on the practicality of the arrangement and diminish awareness of any threat to the stability of the marriage, while women are more likely to romanticize the arrangement and convince themselves it is leading toward an eventual union with the romantic partner. Networks of couples may spend their lives halfway through someone's divorce, usually with a guilt-ridden man reluctant to completely leave a marriage he has betrayed and even deserted, and a woman, no matter how hard she protests to the contrary, eternally hopeful for a wedding in the future.

Philandering

Philandering is a predominantly male activity. Philanderers take up infidelity as a hobby. Philanderers are likely to have a rigid and concrete concept of gender; they worship masculinity, and while they may be greatly attracted to women, they are mostly interested in having the woman affirm their masculinity. They don't really like women, and they certainly don't want an equal, intimate relationship with a member of the gender they insist is inferior, but far too powerful. They see women as dangerous, since women have the ability to assess a man's worth, to measure him and find him wanting, to determine whether he is man enough.

These men may or may not like sex, but they use it compulsively to affirm their masculinity and overcome both their homophobia and their fear of women. They can be cruel, abusive, and even violent to women who try to get control of them and stop the philandering they consider crucial to their masculinity. Their life is centered around displays of masculinity, however they define it, trying to impress women with their physical strength, competitive victories, seductive skills, mastery of all situations, power, wealth, and, if necessary, violence. Some of them are quite charming and have no trouble finding women eager to be abused by them.

Gay men can philander too, and the dynamics are the same for gay philanderers as for straight ones: the obvious avoidance of female sexual control, but also preoccupation with masculinity and the use of rampant sexuality for both reassurance and the measurement of manhood. When men have paid such an enormous social and interpersonal price for their preferred sexuality, they are likely to wrap an enormous amount of their identity around their sexuality and express that sexuality extensively.

Philanderers may be the sons of philanderers, or they may have learned their ideas about marriage and gender from their ethnic group or inadvertently from their religion. Somewhere they have gotten the idea that their masculinity is their most valuable attribute and it requires them to protect themselves from coming under female control. These guys may consider themselves quite principled and honorable, and they may follow the rules to the letter in their dealings with other men. But in their world women have no rights.

To men they may seem normal, but women experience them as narcissistic or even sociopathic. They think they are normal, that they are doing what every other real man would do if he weren't such a wimp. The notions of marital fidelity, of gender equality, of honesty and intimacy between husbands and wives seem quite foreign from what they learned growing up. The gender equality of monogamy may not feel compatible to men steeped in patriarchal beliefs in men being gods and women being ribs. Monogamous sexuality is difficult for men who worship Madonnas for their sexlessness and berate Eves for their seductiveness.

Philanderers' sexuality is fueled by anger and fear, and while they may be considered "sex addicts" they are really "gender compulsives" desperately doing whatever they think will make them look and feel most masculine. They put notches on their belts in hopes it will make their penises grow bigger. If they can get a woman to die for them, like opera composer Giacomo Puccini did in real life and in most of his operas, they feel like a real man.

Female Philanderers

There are female philanderers too, and they too are usually the daughters or ex-wives of philanderers. They are angry at men, because they believe all men screw around as their father or ex-husband did. A female philanderer is not likely to stay married for very long, since that would require her to make peace with a man, and as a woman to carry more than her share of the burden of marriage. Marriage grounds people in reality rather than transporting them into fantasy, so marriage is too loving, too demanding, too realistic, and not romantic enough for them.

I hear stories of female philanderers, such as Maria Riva's description of her mother, Marlene Dietrich. They appear to have insatiable sexual appetites but, on closer examination, they don't like sex much. They do like power over men, and underneath the philandering anger, they are plaintively seeking love.

Straying wives are rarely philanderers, but single women who mess around with married men are quite likely to be. Female philanderers prefer to raid other people's marriages, breaking up relationships, doing as much damage as possible, and then dancing off reaffirmed. Like male philanderers, female philanderers put their victims through all of this just to give themselves a sense of gender power.

Spider Woman

There are women who, by nature romantics, don't quite want to escape their own life and die for love. Instead they'd rather have some guy wreck his life for them. These women have been so recently betrayed by unfaithful men that the wound is still raw and they are out for revenge. A woman who angrily pursues married men is a "spider woman"--she requires human sacrifice to restore her sense of power.

When she is sucking the blood from other people's marriages, she feels some relief from the pain of having her own marriage betrayed. She simply requires that a man love her enough to sacrifice his life for her. She may be particularly attracted to happy marriages, clearly envious of the woman whose husband is faithful and loving to her. Sometimes it isn't clear whether she wants to replace the happy wife or just make her miserable.

The women who are least squeamish and most likely to wreak havoc on other people's marriages are victims of some sort of abuse, so angry that they don't feel bound by the usual rules or obligations, so desperate that they cling to any source of security, and so miserable that they don't bother to think a bit of the end of it.

Josephine Hart's novel Damage, and the Louis Malle film version of it, describe such a woman. She seduces her fiancee's depressed father, and after the fiancee discovers the affair and kills himself, she waltzes off from the wreckage of all the lives. She explains that her father disappeared long ago, her mother had been married four or five times, and her brother committed suicide when she left his bed and began to date other boys. She describes herself as damaged, and says: "Damaged people are dangerous. They know they can survive."

Bette was a spider woman. She came to see me only once, with her married affair partner Alvin, a man I had been seeing with his wife Agnes. But I kept up with her through the many people whose lives she touched. Bette's father had run off and left her and her mother when she was just a child, and her stepfather had exposed himself to her. Most recently Bette's manic husband Burt had run off with a stripper, Claudia, and had briefly married her before he crashed and went into a psychiatric hospital.

While Burt was with Claudia, the enraged Bette promptly latched on to Alvin, a laid-back philanderer who had been married to Agnes for decades and had been screwing around casually most of that time. Bette was determined that Alvin was going to divorce Agnes and marry her, desert his children, and raise her now-fatherless kids. The normally cheerful Alvin, who had done a good job for a lifetime of pleasing every woman he met and avoiding getting trapped by any of them, couldn't seem to escape Bette, but he certainly had no desire to leave Agnes. He grew increasingly depressed and suicidal. He felt better after he told the long-suffering Agnes, but he still couldn't move in any direction. Over the next couple of years, Bette and Alvin took turns threatening suicide, while Agnes tended her garden, raised her children, ran her business, and waited for the increasingly disoriented and pathetic Alvin to come to his senses.

Agnes finally became sufficiently alarmed about her husband's deterioration that she decided the only way she could save his life was to divorce him. She did, and Alvin promptly dumped Bette. He could not forgive her for what she had made him do to dear, sweet Agnes. He lost no time in taking up with Darlene, with whom he had been flirting for some time, but who wouldn't go out with a married man. Agnes felt relief, and the comfort of a good settlement, but Bette was once again abandoned and desperate.

She called Alvin hourly, alternately threatening suicide, reciting erotic poetry, and offering to fix him dinner. She phoned bomb threats to Darlene's office. Bette called me to tell me what a sociopathic jerk Alvin was to betray her with another woman after all she had done in helping him through his divorce. She wrote sisterly notes to Agnes, offering the comfort of friendship to help one another through the awful experience of being betrayed by this terrible man. At no point did Bette consider that she had done anything wrong. She was now, as she had been all her life, a victim of men, who not only use and abuse women, but won't lay down their lives to rescue them on cue.

EMOTIONALLY RETARDED MEN IN LOVE

About the only people more dangerous than philandering men going through life with an open fly and romantic damsels going through life in perennial distress, are emotionally retarded men in love. When such men go through a difficult transition in life, they hunker down and ignore all emotions. Their brain chemistry gets depressed, but they don't know how to feel it as depression. Their loved ones try to keep from bothering them, try to keep things calm and serene and isolate them further.

An emotionally retarded man may go for a time without feeling pleasure, pain, or anything else, until a strange woman jerks him back into awareness of something intense enough for him to feel it--perhaps sexual fireworks, or the boyish heroics of rescuing her, or perhaps just fascination with her constantly changing moods and never-ending emotional crises.

With her, he can pull out of his depression briefly, but he sinks back even deeper into it when he is not with her. He is getting addicted to her, but he doesn't know that. He only feels the absence of joy and love and life with his serenely cautious wife and kids, and the awareness of life with this new woman. It doesn't work for him to leave home to be with her, as she too would grow stale and irritating if she were around full time.

What he needs is not a crazier woman to sacrifice his life for, but treatment for his depression. However, since the best home remedies for depression are sex, exercise, joy, and triumph, the dangerous damsel may be providing one or more of them in a big enough dose to make him feel a lot better. He may feel pretty good until he gets the bill, and sees how much of his life and the lives of his loved ones this treatment is costing. Marriages that start this way, stepping over the bodies of loved ones as the giddy couple walks down the aisle, are not likely to last long.

Howard had been faithful to Harriett for 16 years. He had been happy with her. She made him feel loved, which no one else had ever tried to do. Howard devoted himself to doing the right thing. He always did what he was supposed to do and he never complained. In fact he said very little at all.

Howard worked at Harriett's father's store, a stylish and expensive mews clothiers. He had worked there in high school and returned after college. He'd never had another job. He had felt like a son to his father-in-law. But when the old man retired, he bypassed the stalwart, loyal Howard and made his own wastrel son manager.

Howard also took care of his own elderly parents who lived next door. His father died, and left a nice little estate to his mother, who then gave much of it to his younger brother, who had gotten into trouble with gambling and extravagance.

Howard felt betrayed, and sank into a depression. He talked of quitting his job and moving away. Harriett pointed out the impracticality of that for the kids. She reminded him of all the good qualities of his mother and her father.

Howard didn't bring it up again. Instead, he began to talk to Maxine, one of the tailors at the store, a tired middle-aged woman who shared Howard's disillusionment with the world. One day, Maxine called frightened because she smelled gas in her trailer and her third ex-husband had threatened to hurt her. She needed for Howard to come out and see if he could smell anything dangerous. He did, and somehow ended up in bed with Maxine. He felt in love. He knew it was crazy but he couldn't get along without her. He bailed her out of the frequent disasters in her life. They began to plot their getaway, which consumed his attention for months.

Harriett noticed the change in Howard, but thought he was just mourning his father's death. They continued to get along well, sex was as good as ever, and they enjoyed the same things they had always enjoyed. It was a shock to her when he told her he was moving out, that he didn't love her anymore, and that it had nothing whatever to do with Maxine, who would be leaving with him.

Harriett went into a rage and hit him. The children went berserk. The younger daughter cried inconsolably, the older one bulimic, the son quit school and refused to leave his room. I saw the family a few times, but Howard would not turn back. He left with Maxine, and would not return my phone calls. The kids were carrying on so on the telephone, Howard stopped calling them for a few months, not wanting to upset them. Meanwhile he and Maxine, who had left her kids behind as well, borrowed some money from his mother and moved to the coast where they bought into a marina--the only thing they had in common was the pleasure of fishing.

A year later, Harriet and the kids were still in therapy but they were getting along pretty well without him. Harriett was running the clothing store. Howard decided he missed his children and invited them to go fishing with him and Maxine. It surprised him when they still refused to speak to him. He called me and complained to me that his depression was a great deal worse. The marina was doing badly. He and Maxine weren't getting along very well. He missed his children and cried a lot, and she told him his preoccupation with his children was a betrayal of her. He blamed Harriett for fussing at him when she found out about Maxine. He believed she turned the children against him. He couldn't understand why anyone would be mad with him; he couldn't help who he loves and who he doesn't love.

MEN AND WOMEN WHO CHEAT

Howard's failure to understand the complex emotional consequences of his affair is typically male, just as Bette's insistence that her affair partner live up to her romantic fantasies is typically female. Any gender-based generalization is both irritating and inaccurate, but some behaviors are typical. Men tend to attach too little significance to affairs, ignoring their horrifying power to disorient and disrupt lives, while women tend to attach too much significance, assuming that the emotions are so powerful they must be "real" and therefore concrete, permanent, and stable enough to risk a life for.

A man, especially a philandering man, may feel comfortable having sex with a woman if it is clear that he is not in love with her. Even when a man understands that a rule has been broken and he expects consequences of some sort, he routinely underestimates the extent and range and duration of the reactions to his betrayal. Men may agree that the sex is wrong, but may believe that the lying is a noble effort to protect the family. A man may reason that outside sex is wrong because there is a rule against it, without understanding that his lying establishes an adversarial relationship with his mate and is the greater offense. Men are often surprised at the intensity of their betrayed mate's anger, and then even more surprised when she is willing to take him back. Men rarely appreciate the devastating long-range impact of their infidelities, or even their divorces, on their children.

Routinely, a man will tell me that he assured himself that he loved his wife before he hopped into a strange bed, that the woman there with him means nothing, that it is just a meaningless roll in the hay. A woman is more likely to tell me that at the sound of the zipper she quickly ascertained that she was not as much in love with her husband as she should have been, and the man there in bed with her was the true love of her life.

A woman seems likely to be less concerned with the letter of the law than with the emotional coherence of her life. It may be okay to screw a man if she "loves" him, whatever the status of his or her marriage, and it is certainly appropriate to lie to a man who believes he has a claim on you, but whom you don't love.

Women may be more concerned with the impact of their affairs on their children than they are with the effect on their mate, whom they have already devalued and discounted in anticipation of the affair. Of course, a woman is likely to feel the children would be in support of her affair, and thus may involve them in relaying her messages, keeping her secrets, and telling her lies. This can be mind-blowingly seductive and confusing to the kids. Sharing the secret of one parent's affair, and hiding it from the other parent, has essentially the same emotional impact as incest.

Some conventional wisdom about gender differences in infidelity is true.

More men than women do have affairs, but it seemed to me that before the AIDS epidemic, the rate for men was dropping (philandering has not been considered cute since the Kennedy's went out of power) and the rate for women was rising (women who assumed that all men were screwing around saw their own screwing around as a blow for equal rights.) In recent years, promiscuity seems suicidal so only the suicidal--that is, the romantics--are on the streets after dark.

Men are able to approach sex more casually than women, a factor not only of the patriarchal double standard but also of the difference between having genitals on the outside and having them on the inside. Getting laid for all the wrong reasons is a lot less dangerous than falling in love with all the wrong people.

Men who get caught screwing around are more likely to be honest about the sex than women. Men will confess the full sexual details, even if they are vague about the emotions. Women on the other hand will confess to total consuming love and suicidal desire to die with some man, while insisting no sex ever took place. I would believe that if I'd ever seen a man describe the affair as so consumingly intense from the waist up and so chaste from the waist down. I assume these women are lying to me about what they know they did or did not do, while I assume that the men really are honest about the genital ups and downs--and honestly confused about the emotional ones.

Women are more likely to discuss their love affairs with their women friends. Philandering men may turn their sex lives into a spectator sport but romantic men tend to keep their love life private from their men friends, and often just withdraw from their friends during the romance.

On the other hand, women are not more romantic than men. Men in love are every bit as foolish and a lot more naive than women in love. They go crazier and risk more. They are far more likely to sacrifice or abandon their children to prove their love to some recent affaire. They are more likely to isolate themselves from everyone except their affair partner, and turn their thinking and feeling over to her, applying her romantic ways of thinking (or not thinking) to the dilemmas of his increasingly chaotic life.

Men are just as forgiving as women of their mates' affairs. They might claim ahead of time that they would never tolerate it, but when push comes to shove, cuckolded men are every bit as likely as cuckolded women to fight like tigers to hold on to a marriage that has been betrayed. Cuckolded men may react violently at first, though cuckolded women do so as well, and I've seen more cases of women who shot and wounded or killed errant husbands. (The shootings occur not when the affair is stopped and confessed, but when it is continued and denied.)

Betrayed men, like betrayed women, hunker down and do whatever they have to do to hold their marriage together. A few men and women go into a rage and refuse to turn back, and then spend a lifetime nursing the narcissistic injury, but that unusual occurrence is no more common for men than for women. Marriage can survive either a husband's infidelity or a wife's, if it is stopped, brought into the open, and dealt with.

I have cleaned up from more affairs than a squad of motel chambermaids. Infidelity is a very messy hobby. It is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life.

It is not a safe treatment for depression, boredom, imperfect marriage, or inadequate gender splendor. And it certainly does not impress the rest of us. It does not work for women any better than it does for men. It does excite the senses and the imaginations of those who merely hear the tales of lives and deaths for love, who melt at the sound of liebestods or country songs of love gone wrong.

I think I've gotten more from infidelity as an observer than all the participants I've seen. Infidelity is a spectator sport like shark feeding or bull fighting--that is, great for those innocent bystanders who are careful not to get their feet, or whatever, wet. For the greatest enjoyment of infidelity, I recommend you observe from a safe physical and emotional distance and avoid any suicidal impulse to become a participant.
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 11:23 PM
or this?

Quote
To begin with, I believe that 'fog' is a distorted reality.

‘Reality’ for each of us, consists principally of two things – our ‘life model’, and our value system.

The ‘life model’ is the picture we have in our head of how the world works, how people interact with each other. As with an engineering model, we feed possibilities into it and come up with predictions. The accuracy of the model is dependent on many things – how good a starter pack our parents gave us, how detailed we’ve made the model, how much we’ve tested it by running sample data through. Some people have highly accurate models and are considered ‘shrewd’, and some have poor predictive powers and are thought naive. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

Our values system is what we use to guide us through life. It’s the set of rules and restrictions and codes that we innately believe will give us the best chance in life. It can be a narrow set – “what’s best for ME”, can revolve around the family, or can be very broad – “what’s in the best interests of the community (town, nation, world)?”

Some of our values are personal – we’ve learned hard lessons from our own experience. – “Don’t steal, or you’ll get a record.’ Some we’ve unconsciously absorbed from our parents – “It’s wrong to steal”. Some we adopt to fit in with peer group ideals – “Her son was done for burglary, isn’t it awful?”.

When we engage with a life-partner, we usually pick someone with a similar values system to our own, and we work hard to bring those systems together. This is not lovey-dovey stuff - it’s innately practical. If we are both bound by the same restrictions and drivers, we are likely to support and reinforce each other. We will be able to ‘trust’ – to confidently predict the other’s actions and opinions – and will therefore have a solid platform on which to base our life.

Our values system is based implicitly on our life model, and it works by reward and punishment. If we conform to our values, we build self-esteem and feel good about ourselves. If we violate our values, we feel discomfort. We attempt to get away from the discomfort by a) confessing and apologising, ie reconforming to values, or b) stuffing the discomfort down, or c) altering the values system so that we don’t appear to have breached it.

When an affair begins, there is usually huge temptation involved – for whatever reason. The temptation overwhelms the values system – when the WS says “I didn’t think…” , that’s exactly right. The normal mental mechanisms were not in play, largely because the life model was not sophisticated or accurate enough to detect what was happening nor predict the likely consequences, or because an intensity of resentment or anger caused normal mechanisms to be deliberately ignored. There is a ‘fantasy leap’, almost like a leap of religious faith. This leap says ‘ I want some fun / excitement / attention. I deserve that. I believe that this will make me feel better, and I believe I can control it, and get what I want out of it.”

The ‘denial’ mechanism can’t operate for long – the values system is too powerful for that. But by the time the underlying values system kicks in, the two affair partners have usually got themselves in sufficiently deep for there to be painful drawbacks in pulling out, and significant benefits in staying in. Excitement and pleasure oppose pain and discomfort.

For most people, an affair is a serious violation of their values system, so that sooner or later, the intense discomfort of values-betrayal is felt. This is heavy-duty pain, the kind that the WS is keen to escape from, like appendicitis. So how do they escape that pain? See above. They could a) confess – but of course it’s not something trivial they’d be confessing, so forget that, b) stuff the discomfort down, or c) alter the values system.

I suspect that most WS’s begin by trying to stuff the pain. But it’s too big – like getting an elephant into a suitcase. So there is really only one way to go. The values system has to change. It seems likely that the WS moves rapidly away from such intense pain – perhaps so quickly that its presence is not even noticed.

So the WS’s position metamorphoses:

1) It’s wrong to have an affair.
2) Friendship is not an affair.
3) Affairs are only wrong if they threaten the marriage. This is a friendship-with-sex and does not threaten the marriage.
4) The outside relationship ‘brightens’ me, and is therefore good for the marriage.
5) Other people are inexperienced. They don’t understand the power of a passionate friendship, and how enriching it is.
6) This affair is not wrong. In fact, I could not live without it.

The process is driven, I suspect, by a factor which none of the literature seems to comment on much – the fact that TWO people are involved.

Both affair partners are having to alter their values systems to accommodate what they’re doing. This feels uncomfortable, so they look to each other for confirmation that they’re justified in acting as they are. Neither wants to believe that they’re involved with someone whose values system is easily changed – that would be weak - so they must each work hard to convince each other that they are good, that their values are altering only because they are ‘growing’, becoming too complex and sophisticated / visceral / emotionally liberated for the old realities as personified by their spouses. They therefore reinforce each other, generating a self-perpetuating cycle that builds like a fire in heavy winds.

In addition, the same values-converging process that happened with the marital partners operates on the affair partners. Ironically, there is a strong need for security, perhaps to replace the dwindling security that the marriage is likely to provide (if the affair is exposed). The affair partners therefore work to keep each other ‘in’ the relationship by escalating involvement and increasing the other’s personal investment.

The desperate need to believe in the security of the relationship, in its ability to support and nurture, in its essential goodness, leads to what looks from the outside to be reckless behaviour. There is a mutual denial of the dangers of STDs or pregnancy.

By this time, the WS’s values systems are a LONG way from where they began.

Think back to what a values system is. It’s a set of beliefs based on a life model – the most realistic picture an individual can generate of how the world works. To support the altered values system, there has to be an altered life model (the one that says, eg, affairs won’t hurt my family).

The problem with the altered life model is that it’s not realistic. It starts from a premise that’s innately flawed – that it is OK for this individual to have this affair. The flaw distorts all logic.

Imagine that you postulated a theory that air would support your weight if there was enough of it under you, ie if you got high enough above the ground. Obviously, water supports large ships under a similar theory, so it’s a reasonable conjecture. The theory would look OK as long as you didn’t have to personally prove it. We can see that skydivers don’t appear to conform to the principle, but perhaps that’s just because they don’t get high enough?

Once you’re working to this theory, it becomes obvious that planes are a rather naïve concept. All that going-fast when all they have to do is climb up to the level where they’re supported by air molecules! The notion that satellites have to orbit at high speed is also clearly daft – at that height the trouble would be getting them down!

The affair partners are now operating far above safe oxygen levels. But to them, everything makes perfect sense.

This is ‘fog’.

The flawed model is a poor predictor. It fails as soon as it’s put to a real-world test. In fact, it fails all the time. In truth, it fails so frequently that the affairees must exert colossal energy just to keep themselves in the suspension of disbelief. And the self-delusion may eventually be exposed by real-world reactions that cannot easily be denied or ignored – the anguish of children, the disappointment on a mother’s face, the lash of a lawyer’s letter.

So what’s happening to the marriage, while all of this is going on?

To begin with, the WS moves between the two realities with a sense of excitement. It’s an escape. But, as the two realities diverge, there is increasing discomfort at the difficulty of bridging the two, of making the transition between them. To counter this, and because the affair is where the excitement is, a sense of anger, indignation and self-righteousness develops that the WS is ‘having’ to lie and deceive. If only the BS’s could be sophisticated enough to understand the benefits of the arrangement! If the BS’s were not so selfish, they would be glad that the WS’s are happy! It is infuriating that the stupid, inflexible BS’s would inevitably whinge and complain and wreck the perfect love of two people who were destined for each other…

There is no counter-balancing argument from the BS, because the BS does not know what is going on. But the likelihood is that the spouse has an instinctive awareness that something is wrong, and is becoming defensive and confrontational. The marriage is becoming an uncomfortable environment.

So the WS has now manoeuvred themselves into a position where the only source of acceptance and pleasure is with the OP. The WS inevitably moves further away from the marriage.

The affair usually loses its flavour, as the affairees begin to know each other and recognise that the affair partner is far from an improvement on the marital partner, and that the effort involved is no longer justified by the benefits. But as the emotional bond weakens, the two affairees may perversely cling to each other even more tightly, though not always at the same time. There is probably a bond of friendship, hopelessly complicated by the sexual connection and conspiracy to bteray.

By now they are in a position where exposure of the affair seems likely to end the two marriages anyway. The marriages are now so tarnished – the WS’s have moved so far away from the original values systems still supported by their spouses – that the affair, for all its misery, is now a more likely candidate for the future than the marriage. Both WS’s are locked in a death-spiral – each is terrified that the affair partner will leave the affair to recover the marriage, leaving one WS abandoned and hopeless. And at least one WS may be trapped by the terror of having to establish permanence with the affair partner, or be alone.

So what about the ‘fog’? The WS is moving between two realities; he or she is effectively two people. There is a ‘flickering’ effect, like moving between perceptions in a magic-eye picture. Sometimes WS#2 flickers into life in Reality #1. If the bad reception makes it difficult for the BS to ‘see’ the wayward spouse, the discontinuity makes it impossible for the WS to ‘see’ the old reality clearly too. WS convinces themselves that all is unchanged and well in the old life. They may even become angry if the BS is liberal with the old value system. It is necessary for the BS to be predictable via a well-understood parcel of values, in order for the WS’s deceit to work. There may also be a need, unacknowledged, for the BS to act as keeper-of-the-flame, to vicariously hold to what the WS has lost, to be a solid platform to return to.

And then comes dday, and the clash of matter and anti-matter, as the two realities meet. For the first time, the WS is presented with penetrating questions about the logic of the affair’s life-model. For the first time, the illogicality of the affair’s premise is exposed. The WS must defend the affair, or appear hilariously stupid. Defending the affair with dodgy logic has been the option for the life of the affair; the dodgy logic has been vigorously supported by the OP, so that the WS has had no practice in providing a reasonable defence. Small wonder that the WS feels threatened and humiliated and hits back. Small wonder that the arguments are so feeble – the same feeble arguments have been applauded as sage wisdom for so long, the WS is profoundly indignant at being challenged in any way. At this point, the WS provides us with all of those witty sayings that we howl at on the ‘dumb answer’threads.

At this point, the WS can head off in one of several directions. They might retreat permanently. They might reluctantly acknowledge that some of the logic was flawed, and move slowly back into the old values system. They might recognise immediately the mistake they have made, and set about with energy and determination to fix the mess they have created. Or they might settle for a fortress mentality and stubbornly defend what they’ve done, in unconscious fear that being wrong means being annihilated.
Posted By: frozen1229 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/16/07 11:24 PM
or this?

Quote
Anatomy of Adultery
15 Steps of Unfaithfulness

How does adultery "happen?" People don't just decide one day to hop in bed and be unfaithful to their spouse. Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.

The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness. Our question: "How did this happen... what were the tiny steps which led to this mess?" While the order varied from case to case, the following is the general progression which surfaced in most incidents. This is not some sort of theoretical list. These are the actual steps taken by scores of church people who wound up committing adultery and regretting it later. Some of these people sobbed deeply as they shared, hoping that their own pain and failure might save other marriages. This information comes to you at great expense.

This chapter doesn't have any preaching or analysis... that is left to you. Here we offer you cold word-for-word quotes. You and your Sunday School class can draw out the lessons. How did these lives get ruined? How does it start?


1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"


2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."

"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."

"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.

"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."


3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."

"She was there when I needed her."

"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."

"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."


4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."

"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."

"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."

"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."

"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."


5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."

"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."

"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."

"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."


6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."

"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."

"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."

"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."


7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."

"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."

"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."

"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."

"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."

"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."


8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."

"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."

"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."

"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."

"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."


9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."

"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."

"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."

"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."


10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."

"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."

"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."

"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."


11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."

"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."

"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."

"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."


12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."

"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."

"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."

"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"

"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."

"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."


13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."

"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."

"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."


14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."

"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."

"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."

"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."


15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."

"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."

"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."

"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man."
Posted By: 5outof6aintbad Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/17/07 12:40 AM
Hi Froz,
You were asking which post in "Notable Posts" I was referring to as a guide to the mind-set of a WH.

It was Pittman's one - "Beyond Betrayal - Life after Infidelity".

I was in the Accidental Infidelity group for a few years[my 'features' in bold in an excerpt from Pittman below],
before graduating in marriage-ending fashion to Romantic Infidelity (still with my A partner and our two kids today).

That article describes my thoughts about my infidelity at the time very well.

Maybe your WH's situation is detailed in the article too?

[quote]Both men and women can slip up and have accidental affairs, though the most accident-prone are those who drink, those who travel, [/b]those who don't get asked much,[/b] those who don't feel very tightly married, those whose running buddies screw around, and those who are afraid to run from a challenge. Most are men.

After an accidental infidelity, there is clearly the sense that one's life and marriage have changed. The choices are:

1. To decide that infidelity was a stupid thing to do, to confess it or not to do so, but to resolve to take better precautions in the future;

2. To decide you wouldn't have done such a thing unless your husband or wife had let you down, put the blame on your mate, and go home and pick your marriage to death;

3. To notice that lightning did not strike you dead, decide this would be a safe and inexpensive hobby to take up, and do it some more;
Posted By: patriot92 Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/22/07 12:58 AM
I have been thinking on this for a few days.

What’s the real answer to “why”? I think first, you must determine what the real question is.

Why did I have an affair?

Why was it ok to destroy frozen?

Why was it ok to place in peril, children’s hearts and minds?

Why was it acceptable to maintain a second secret life?

Why was it ok to continue in life without learning even one skill that would help grow a relationship?

I suppose I could ask hundreds of questions to pinpoint facets of this complex issue but to me, the why is so convoluted and impossible to tack down in one place.

It ties up nicely in “I failed to protect my weaknesses”. Straight from Steve Harley himself. And everyone that reads here wouldn’t refute the man’s words would they? Or would they? Indeed, do they.

First, we are all wired to have an affair. What does that mean? That we are evil? No. That we are terrible people waiting to explode? No. It means cause and effect can not be ignored. If you allow someone to make deposits in your love bank, then you run the risk of falling in love with that person. Not always love like you see on TV or wish for. Love, defined as the giving and receiving of things we like with someone else. Conversation, understanding, a shoulder to cry on, sex… whatever. Many people in the world think that if I ‘do’ something for them, they will love me the way I want to be loved.

Truth is, they put in all this effort and didn’t get what they want but fail to see the actions they are putting in with as dishonest.

Either way, we are all wired(which is to say able) to have affairs. Like physically capable. Mentally capable. Emotionally capable as well.

This was a weakness I did not protect. I did not make sure my spouse was safe from me in this area.

Immaturity. Pure and simple, I have not been as developed emotionally as I have needed to be for most of my life. In being underdeveloped in these areas, I had weaknesses in selfishness, blameshifting and various other childish styles of behaving that I should have protected my spouse from. I should have taken the time to prepare myself for a relationship with another person well before stepping off into one.
Fear of intimacy. Am I afraid of intimacy? I have been afraid of not being accepted, loved and being rejected. I am still a little worried about those from time to time. But intimacy?

I am afraid of intimacy in that I protect myself from pain by hiding from people emotionally. I protect myself from hurt by closing my doors and not letting people in. I do wish it was alright to just “be left alone for a while” but these days, even that can be easily seen as stopping intimacy.

How is this part of why? Due to not letting frozen in to my life in an intimate way, I walled her of from my ‘bad’ parts. The parts she needed to be made aware of. The ones were she could have told me she didn’t like them and also the ones she could have decided that she didn’t like enough to stop the relationship. And because she tried so hard to get me to be intimate and open, and that was counter to my desire of protection of myself… she was hurt by me repeatedly. I used words and actions to ‘get her away from me’ so I could be walled off.

So, it is all here. The why. I had an affair because I was passive-aggressive, lying, scared of intimacy, terrified of commitment, willing to chase the unattainable but scared to death of the attainable(and therefore something I could become to require that might be taken from me), immature, childish and weak. Sex with some woman that I certainly did not love was not really that hard. It made me feel good. It made me feel wanted. And I didn’t have to work to keep things going. I did not have to learn new ways of anything. I did not have to grow up or mature.

And now I look back on that time that I was not protecting my weaknesses(and I should have been because I was beginning a relationship with frozen) with disgust and shame. ******, I am disgusted and ashamed now. I probably always will be. I don’t see this ever changing.

I did not protect my weaknesses and I choose something I truly regret. Disgusting vile putrid crap.

Frozen often says she feels worthless because of what I have done. I really do understand what she is talking about. If she went and slept with some guy for a year and a ½ and I found out, I would feel totally worthless too. Add to it that she failed to do much of anything about it in recovery and I would further feel worthless. Close to totally, I am sure.

I know in my heart she is not worthless. I believe it is I who is worthless. Having not the character to stop the temptation of evil is weak and cowardly. It is childlike and worthless. It has no honor. It has no morality.

The WS is worthless because we didn’t have the character to stop. To say no. To place the care of our loved-ones before our own foolish evils.

So I am not worthless really.. but I feel like it. She is not worthless truly.. but she feels like it. No matter. When someone feels like something, often they become that.

So, I know why I did it. I did not think of anything or anyone else but myself. Period. I ignored any feelings of “danger” and went forward. Ignorance and stupidity.

Not protecting my weaknesses. And she deserved to have me protecting those things.

So I have started work on these issues. Talking them out. Reading books about them. Setting up counseling sessions. And so on. Hopefully, it will not be too late.

I think it might be though. That’s my fault.
Posted By: weaver Re: Why did I have an affair? - 08/22/07 05:34 PM
Patriot,

Once on here your mentioned your lack of awareness, and someone else mentioned needing a change in perspective.

Have you attained a change in perspective?

For me, the change in perspective meant that I finally realized how sacred a long-term committed R is, and from there I learned that that is why marriage is so sacred, and needs to be treated as such by both involved, as well as by others. Up until that point I was simply unaware. I hadn't given it any thought, and I hadn't experieced any pain to get me thinking.

What forever changed my view, and the reason why I know I will never cheat or damage my M, or H in anyway is more complex but if simplified it would be something like this -

The purpose of a M is to increase and expand all that is good within and between two individuals, thereby positively affecting others in a concentric circle. Or fist each other, then the children, then the bigger family, community, universe...

K on here once said that a good marriage is a very positive thing for all.

This is what is meant by a change in perspective, or what is meant by becomming aware of something that was previously not in your realm of conscious thought.
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