Hey Patriot & Froz,

Don't know if you remember me or not... I spent a year here in 2004-2005 when I was deployed to Afghanistan. Well, I'm back for another tour so I'm back to MB!

I've been following your thread here and you're both getting some great advice. I don't really have any advice, but wanted to encourage you both.

Patriot - It's important to Froz that you find out the "Why" of your A so that you will know (and more importantly Froz will know) what you need to do in order to protect your M from an A. So keep digging and you WILL find out the "Why".

Once you've found out the "Why", the single best thing that you can do for Froz is to become an open book for her. If she says jump, you jump. If she has a question that you don't remember an answer to, don't just say "I don't know" or "I can't remember".... You tell Froz that you respect her question and that she deserves an accurate answer and that you would like a little time (no more than a day) to really search your soul for the answer... then you go to her and give her the answer. I knew when Mrs. RIF was really working on our rebuilding when she came up to me one day and said "RIF, I remembered the answer to one of your questions..." It blew me away! You've got to be willing to do that for Froz.

This isn't going to be easy Patriot, and it's not going to be "fun". But it's necessary for Froz to understand that YOU now understand just how much this hurt her. Until she starts feeling "safe" that you won't do this again, the questions will continue.

Patriot, I haven't been around much since 2005, but I know from reading your posts that you are committed to the M. You need to reassure Froz of that EVERY single day. Tell her that you love her... tell her that you care for her. She needs to hear that constantly from you... and most importantly, let your ACTIONS speak for you.



Hi Froz - I know this is hard for you. I guess one of the best things that you can do for Patriot is to let him know that you are committed to the M. I'm sure he knows this by now because you guys are still together. You have every right to be angry with Patriot when his actions are not trustworthy, or when he is defensive, but you must deal with your anger in a godly way, then let Patriot know that you are committed to rebuilding.... Patriot needs to hear that from time to time. I'm not saying that you have to praise him everytime he does something "good"... or that you have to thank him for doing the things that he SHOULD be doing. All that I'm saying is that Patriot needs to know that no matter how mad you are at him, that you are STILL committed to rebuilding this M. It will take some time and many consistent actions by Patriot before you even start to feel comfortable in this rebuilding process, but for now, please let Patriot know that you are committed to working on this with him.

I'm glad to see that you guys are still together and are working towards rebuilding... it really doesn't matter that it's taken two years. Those two years are in the past. What matters is that you are still on the road to rebuilding your M together... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I wish you both the best!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Discovering the why

A task that has proven more than small, for sure. I have reflected and reflected on myself and the many things I am and have done in the past. I have dug up regrets I didn’t even know I had, or rather had forgotten about. I have come to a conclusion about self-reflection, at least for me.

You never reach the finish line.

It is never over. You self-reflect constantly and adjust or don’t adjust your course accordingly. Even if it is only for a moment. “I should not have had my finger in the door when I shut it. I will make sure to watch my hand from now on”

The thing I find funny about my example is it also highlights the potential for ‘forgetting’ about this sometime later and ending up in the same place again. I know I have done that before. Hit my toe on the door frame and freeze to the wall in pain. Possibly a few blue words of choice to decorate the moment. And then I resolve to do something in order to change the outcome. All due to the pain. Then the pain goes away, some time passes… and then it happens again. Rinse and repeat.

So self-reflection is just endless. Now, I have to determine is this good or bad? I think it is good for me. It allows me to assess myself and my action and actually place something of a score on it. Did good. Did bad. Could have improved this here. Or there. And this is where it is good for me I think. I can determine what I am proud of and what I am not coming from me. To a degree. I think we all still need input from others because we don’t know all the answers nor make all the right decisions.

Self-reflection was not something I did in relationships. I have done course correction activities in my career and responsibilities.. but not my relationships. Probably pretty odd to see a senior non-commissioned officer act in such a way. Not that anyone would believe me, but in uniform is when I am most confident and most comfortable… and make the best decisions. I am an indecisive mess half the time at home… In uniform, I am decisive, a recognized leader and talented.

If only the DOD regulated relationships with females…

Well, anyway, self-reflection is a skill I am choosing to adopt. I want to practice this behavior.

So what about why? In my diatribe above I am trying to describe the fact that so many factors in my life and behavior point to this problem or could have been key parts of this issue that it seems short-sighted to point at one or only a few. But it seems overwhelming to point at them all and attempt to change them.

So what do I think was key in this downfall of mine? A downfall, I will remind myself that really screwed frozen over time and again with her thinking she was getting a good deal.. And then come to find out she was getting hosed. Ugh…

Lack of Character – Had I been made of stronger stuff at the time, I would not have had an affair. This is not an all-encompassing answer, as MEDC might suggest, but only a small portion. I could have had less character than most at the time and still gotten by without committing this offense. Didn’t happen that way though. The best way to deal with this is to keep one’s self ‘honest’ by considering consequences of the action. You have to consider the consequences for yourself and for others around you. Those of us who don’t are just time bombs waiting to go off, I think. Consequences are a valid boundary enforcement and teach people what is ok and not ok. It works that way for a reason, I bet. Consequences have to be considered. Sadly, they are not always. Not ignoring consequences for both Frozen and myself is one way I can affair-proof this marriage.

P/A behavior – This one, sadly, is one of the more scary ones that I have to work on. Due to my sideways anger and miss-interpretations of actions and feelings, I caused a lot of really horrible things to occur. On auto-pilot, for the most part, because it is so natural for me to sacrifice, acting like it is ok and then getting pissed about it later. Anyway, the only way I see this issue getting addressed is awareness and then openness. I am aware that I engage in passive aggression on occasion. That is step one. Now step two is to continue to talk openly with Frozen about the feelings I feel at the time I feel them. This is a pretty good option I think because she is usually very good at ‘seeing’ I feel something. So she asks. And it is my job to talk with her about it. And as long as she is receptive to this, I think it can work. She gets to know things about me and I get to practice openness. And I focus on win-win. Not me win only.

Immaturity – I would be a fool to think this had nothing to do with it. Flat out, it does. Not being big enough, strong enough or otherwise able to function like a mature adult is a key thing to consider for me. So how to become mature? A book I was reading on ’21 days to a better marriage’ framed it nicely. Immaturity is being incomplete or undeveloped in personal and emotional growth. The facets of that are detachment, control, irresponsibility and self-centeredness. Detachment is addressed by being open to frozen and not distancing myself. Control is addressed by allowing her the freedom she is right to have. Respecting her boundaries. Being responsible to her and not for her is the answer to number 3. Considering her and not only myself is the last answer. Simply doing these things would go a long distance in fixing issues we have.

Incorrect relationship agreement – She wants a buyer. She wants to be a buyer. I want the same things. And a buyer begins with POJA. I like POJA, actually. I see how it gives me power. And power is something I want. Not over her. Over me. I don’t have to agree to anything that I don’t agree to enthusiastically. Instead of giving away my power by thinking “she won’t let me…..” I can take my power back by saying “this is not ok with me”. Or by saying “I would like to discuss how we can come to an agreement on this issue” I did not do it on my recent job acquisition. I am facing the music of that issue by starting over on the job search. Who knows… maybe it will turn out a better job then I got. I have negotiated things since then. An issue dealing with my military career. She and I fully discussed it and came to an agreement. And we have stayed on the same team discussing it. It was enlightening for me to see POJA in action.

Honesty and openness about my daily actions – This is where the secret second life that Dr Harley talks about becomes available. If I had been open and honest about my daily life… even the ugly things, she could have said something about it. Also, I would have had to answer for mush smaller things like an inappropriate email to some woman instead of an entire affair. It could have certainly been a factor in stopping it before it started. And she would have probably been on the side of or relationship. I certainly wasn’t. To address this now, I have been writing a journal of dealings with potential threats to the marriage. This has been quite a good habit actually. In fact, to enforce the email issue, I stuck a postit to the journal and that very next day I was forwarding emails for her to look at.

Awareness of any reliable relationship skills – not through anyone’s fault but my own, I was of aware of good relationship skills. No love bank. No love busters. No cause and effect. Ignorance at its most reckless. See, a person can learn to drive a car. But if they never learn the appropriate side of the road to drive on, it can turn out pretty bad. Maybe they only learned at night, in a small town with no one out and about. Either side of the road works then. Not in daytime traffic downtown. Awareness can save your but in a minute for sure. Anyway, example aside, the point is awareness is no excuse for making mistakes, but it is an explanation. It was totally my responsibility to become aware before stepping into a situation. To address awareness, I have participated here, read a few books and learned core principles of MB and Imago, been to come counseling and had several discussions with Frozen about these issues.


I think by addressing the areas above where I was weak, I would be going a long way in making our relationship affair-proof.

However, I have caught on to something additional lately. Meeting ENs is important right now. That might sound really stupid but given the amount of damage caused by me, I have made it a point to focus all my efforts on stopping that. However, I have come to the realization that I could make the relationship as safe as possible for Frozen and it would not be enough because for her to fall in love with me, I have to meet ENs to the point of achieving that amount that makes her fall in love with me. So I am going to add some work on that also. I have put a few in here and there, but I am thinking of ways of how to ramp that up to a higher amount of care. I really did think that she would be happy if I just stopped doing the bad stuff. But she won’t. And she shouldn’t She deserves a healthy and happy relationship. The is one where LBs are removed and ENs are met.

So after think for a while, this is what I have come up with.

Opinions?

What are you doing Pat, to work on your own self-diagnosed P/A problems? Are you seeing an I/C?

Yes you need to stop lovebusting and yes you should meet some needs, but until you really take action to fix this problem, your marriage is in serious danger.

Even if Froz leaves, the next relationship you are in will not be any better, since YOU are the common denominator here.

Currently, I am not seeing an IC. I am not opposed to it however.

The best weapon I have against myself in this is to continue to talk openly with frozen and discuss my feelings. She asks a good amount of questions and in most cases anything I would have built into P/A ammo usually gets dealt with. Or placed out in the open.

Honestly, I think IC would be a good thing for me for a little bit, but I have to look into how to get into it.

I think I might do that today. I will report back what I find. I will report today. So as to not procrastinate this.

I fully realize that it is me with the P/A issues. Thanks for posting... based on my previous employment, I really hadn't looked into counseling. I will give it a look today.

Today is a good idea.

The point is, that its your job to protect your wife from your weaknesses.

If you don't take active steps to repair this P/A behavior, then filling needs and avoiding LBs is really moot.

First you must address this problem and ensure that Froz will never be hurt by it again.

If you can't do that, the rest of your effort is a waste of time for both of you.

made an appointment for monday to get a referral.

This jumped out at me because:

When someone uses P/A behaviour to manage their life, hurting their partner IS a perfectly acceptable way to solve a problem or conflict. If the partner protests that your actions are hurting them - so what? It's Win/Lose and Losing hurts. You know they're hurt because they Lost. What's their point? They should just accept that and suck it up and stop b*tching because somebody has to Lose and they should learn to be a good Loser.

When someone uses POJA to manage their life, hurting their partner IS NO LONGER AN ACCEPTABLE OPTION.

That's the monumental difference I see between using Win/Lose and using POJA.
Mulan

I totally agree

after thinking about it, I wanted to thank you Mulan. Normally, I cringe when I see you have posted to me because it feels like your posts are ussualy dripping with hatred for me.

Maybe you do. Maybe you don't.

The fact is this last post from you was a very good one from my perspective and lately it has been a message I have been able to hear.

Understanding that it is NOT ok for frozen to be hurt in the process of me getting something is a message I can hear. And after reading the BRF book, I prefer the method of POJA for my life over the previous ways I have been doing business.

Anyway, I wanted to say thank you. Your post was heard and it falls in line with what I want to do in this relationship.

So thanks.

Patriot

I don't think anyone knows you enough to hate you or even dislike you.

If I were to make a guess it is some of your actions, or inactions that people dislike.

There is a difference between hating a person or an action.

I hate it when my wife grits her teeth but I do not hate my wife.

I hate it when my son sings the oscar mayer bologna song 50 times in a row in the car but I don't hate my son.

I disapprove of some things people do but it doesn't mean I dislike them.

Part of this excercise is to extracate yourself from the victim role when your actions cause a reaction. Or when your inaction cause a reaction.

Just a thought.

After reading your post, I wonder something.

How do you tell if you are actually the victim of something or just receiving the reactions from your own decisions?

How can I tell if I am the victim of some repressed anger or if I am just getting what I have coming to me?

Do I never get to make that determination again because I had an affair?

Like for the rest of my life, I just have to consider that I am being treated fairly by all and that ANY bad feelings I get from frozen or others words are just what I deserve?

Just a simple answer to those questions without assuming what I am after in this would work best for me.

All I am after is an adjustment of my own thoughts so I don't go through the same powerless feelings that usually have me reacting in a poor way.

Anyone?

You can never be a victim if you decided on the course of action.

Look at all the people today claiming victim status with the housing market.

Stupid maybe, victim no.

victim - a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency (definition)

I would say go to the true starting point of the situation.

So affair world or not.

My wife asks me too take out the cat droppings.

I agree to take out the cat droppings.

I then don't take out the cat droppings.

Then my wife gets mad at me.

Am I a victim of my wifes anger?

Repeat that over and over. Wife gets even more angry the 100th time she asks me to do something that I don't do.

She is even more upset.

Am I the victim of her anger?

Now if you walk in the door and your wife punches you in the head because a telemarketer called her 5 times today.

I would say you are a victim.

The reason I pointed it out to you is my wife claims victim status a lot.

It is really more ownership in my book.

I own the not doing what you asked me to do. Therefore you have a right to your feelings of being upset.

I do not own the telemarketer, you have no right to be upset with me.

yer welcome pat
Mulan

Hi Pat,


Those are really good questions. I have thought about this kind of thing myself as I struggle not to act P/A at times. When its a life long belief that its dangerous or wrong to express anger openly, its really, really hard to start to do this.

IMO, part of the answer is yes, you are NEVER again a victim. BUT, the reason for this has nothing to do with having had an A. It most certainly does not mean that you deserve whatever you get from people.

When we were children, we had no control over much of our lives. People really could control us if they wanted, by not feeding, clothing, allowing, approving, caring or loving us in the way we deserved, because we were innocent children.

As adults, this is not the case. No one can ever control us, because we have choices. Others choose their words or actions. Then, we can respond. We can choose to speak up for ourselves. We can choose not to tell others that we don't allow ourselves to be talked to in that way. We can even choose to not expose ourselves to that person ever again. We can respectfully ask for what we need or want.

Peoples motives for saying things will probably always be mixed. It may be that they have repressed anger. It may not be. We can't know. Sometimes even they don't know. The point is, it doesn't matter. Because we draw boundaries around ourselves, and choose what behaviours we will and won't accept, what choices we want to make, and what our needs are. This is called self respect.

You don't "get" bad feelings from others. Bad feelings are not a disease. Your feelings are separate from others feelings. Others may feel down, depressed, angry, upset. Thats ok. They have a right to feel whatever they feel.
BUT if they yell, make disrespectful or sarcastic comments, withhold affection, act passive aggressively or outright aggressively or otherwise express those feelings in a hurtful or disrespectful way, that is probably not ok with most people.

An example...

I have a friend who was raped. It was extremely traumatic and incredibly painful. Was she treated fairly? Obviously not. Is she a victim? No.

Even though she was in a lot of pain, she waited till the fog cleared and then she responded.
That man is now in prison.

Despite her terrible experience, she has self-respect. She knows she is a strong, brave and honest woman, who can and does think and act in her best interests, no matter what comes her way.

It doesn't matter the circumstances...grave mistakes, horribly unfair events, illnesses... we can choose either to respond with self respect, or to deny responsibility, blame others or the universe, and allow ourselves to be victimised.

Patriot


I think this is a useful question, and the start of a productive journey.

When someone say something that makes us uncomfortable, our natural reaction is to defend against it. If defence feels impossible, we might go to the other extreme and angrily acknowledge our 'culpability' in a way that precludes discussion.

Both of these responses are essentially a way of avoiding the issue and getting out of doing the difficult adult work.

Which is...assessing whether the other's complaint is reasonable, and dealing with it responsibly and respectfully.

The first hard part of that is assessing the 'reasonable', especially when the only gauge you have is a distorted worldview warped by FOO issues and a generous hit of entitlement. THIS is where you need IC to help you get your perspective into healthier shape.

(The second hard part is being able to admit to your own poor behaviour.)

For a start on this, I would suggest you recognise that reacting to Frozen's complaints with irritation, resentment and anger is NOT a reasonable way for an adult to behave. The sense of justification for behaving this way is coming from a very young, very childish, very STUCK place within you. Frozen has every right to present you with her feelings, and it's your responsibility as an adult to take those seriously and accept that they may tell you something about yourself that you don't like. If she really is being unreasonable, and attacking you unfairly, you will eventually (this needs work) be able to see that, and at that point can respond in a measured and self-directed way.

Here's something that will hurt, but it's a place to start... Your step-mother considered you a spoiled, indulged and overprivileged kid. What if there was some truth in that?

<Steps well back out of the blast zone...>

TA

I think TA is making a brilliant point.

Pat ~ I insisted that Froz talk about herself and deal with HER issues long ago. She is now in a place where she can identify what is yours and what is her issue.

You need to deal with YOUR stuff before you start talking about her stuff.

She's done the work, you haven't. It's waaaaaaaaaaay premature to start complaining that you are a victim of her repressed anger.

And believe me, she was FAR angerier when she first started posting here. She's done alot of work since then.

I am willing to bet - your discomfort is coming from you, not from her.

Pat,

You seem to be making progress identifying your "why". And you're looking at ways to change your behavior. I think that's great. But I'd like to suggest that unless you figure out how to change your perspective, all the behavioral changes you make may not be deep enough to be permanent.

TruBluz mentioned that her husband had to change is "world view" in order to make deep and lasting changes in the way he behaved. TogetherAlone just touched on the same theme. Earlier, Weaver suggested you explore the "fear" that compels you to continue to act the way you do. I think these are all very important points... and I hope you're keying into them.

You developed some powerful defense mechanisms as a boy... and I think they will continue to control the way you behave... despite your best efforts to rise above them... until you learn to undo the damage that was done and address the way you view yourself and the rest of the world.

Any luck finding an IC? Did you check out that book I mentioned way back when?

Keep plugging away... you're getting there.

--SC

I disagree with this statement. Having certain portions of information hidden from you with the intention of you not factoring it in seems to be a victim situation. And you chose, right? But you chose from not all info pertinent to the situation.

The rest of it is fine.

Odd thing is, victim status really doesn’t get you anything. At least not me. Anyone else seems to claim it and people want to look at how they are getting hurt. I claim it and it somehow ends up being my own fault anyway. Ergo…removal of victim status. And I just end up sitting here thinking no one listens to me and what’s the point in trying to expose my feelings when no one seems interested in hearing them, but instead wants to tell me how they are all jacked up.

Anyway, victim status isn’t anything that is producing something for me… so I will work on not trying to get it. There is no payoff in trying to get it. In fact, there is only more pissing and moaning about the issue if I seem to walk down the path… so I just need to drop it. But I am struggling with the idea that I am to just trust frozen and you all with your 2x4s and advice and I am requested to empathize and understand … yet I don’t feel I get the same things in return. And maybe I don’t get the same things in return because the feelings I feel, that I want empathy for, are caused by me… so who would want to empathize with a person that victimizes themselves.

Hmmm….that was an interesting thought

Thanks for the reminder on boundaries, smu. That is helpful.


Maybe there is some truth to it. In my mind, a rich kid is described this way. A kid that gets anything and everything they want, with the parents showering them with love and affection. So on and so forth. As I previously stated, Dad worked a blue collar job making enough to feed and cloth us and provide an acceptable lifestyle. We were not out on the town every weekend. I did not have a room full of every toy imaginable. After my Mother died, life came to a screeching halt, actually. I was active in a few organizations, taking piano lessons and such. All stopped. My life became latch-key kid, with Dad gone before I awoke and not home until I had been home for 3 hours. I was 9. I remember watching a lot of “Good Times.”. We went to a local hamburger joint about once or twice a week.

I had always considered that SHE called me spoiled, indulged and over privileged because her baseline was an abusive home situation and very little room in the budget for anything. Two kids, single working mother that was a school teacher. Stuff like that. Seemed reasonable. Still does.

But you don’t have to run away thinking I will explode at what you have to say. If I were truly interested in changing my thinking, then I would remain calm and tell you that I was offended, if in fact I was. Attacking is a childish thing to do. Anyway, I am not angry at what you have to say. It is a valid question. I just don’t happen to think there is much too it. That said, I am thinking about it.

But, I will agree that frozen saying her feelings is no reason for me to get apprehensive. I am still learning how to work in a relationship instead of use someone in a relationship. I do get defensive sometimes, however, because I se how she processes information and sometimes I disagree with how she does it. That is my right. I can assess anything I want to. But I have to find a way to assess how she is treating ME without ignoring her feelings.


Bramblerose..

Lol… maybe you forget but I lived with her all this time. So no need to remind me she was angrier I was here. But you are correct that she has done a load of work and made very big improvements.

I know I need to do work too. So that’s why I am talking about it.

Also, I do believe TB is right in that I will have to change my thoughts on a big level to stop the issues form continuing. I understand that. I am trying to attack the thoughts.

It is obvious to me that P/A run rampant is a big motivator for making mistakes like having an affair.

'Spoiled' and 'indulged' is not necessarily about those kinds of things. It can often be about an attitude towards the child that is well-intentioned but unhealthy - failing to impose necessary discipline, indulging poor behaviour, giving the child the impression they are 'better' than other kids, and so on.

Only children are, I think, more likely to get this kind of treatment. (I'm an only child myself.)

A child whose mother has died is, I suspect, likely to be treated with extra attention and sympathy by adults and other children?

Whether this is close to the mark or not, I would ask that you try to see the situation from your step-mother's perspective - NOT from the viewpoint that she was wrong but it was an understandable mistake, but from the viewpoint that her opinion had some tiny element of truth.

Somewhere along the line, Patriot, between birth and three years ago, you developed character patterns that have lead you to relationship disaster. Your actions have been those of self-indulgence, lack of respect for the needs and rights of others, relationship greediness, unwillingness to co-operate, and callousness. Those character patterns didn't develop in a fortnight..and they won't disappear in a fortnight, either.

I note this part of what you said:


So, you're not interested in changing your thinking? Why? What would you lose if you had a different picture of the young Patriot in his sad situation - if you lost the 'myth'?

TA