I thought part of Plan A was meeting his needs & not expecting him to meet mine until after withdrawal & he was fully working on recovery. NC possibly started yesterday. I don't know yet & don't know how to bring it up.

As I said, I'm holding back on believing it right now. I need to see more.

Plan A was NOT meant to be perpetual.

lost..
which is the real scenario...


When he came home Monday from his fishing trip, the house was clean & there was no argument & no bad mood. He noticed & told me he appreciated it.

or this one...

He left on Saturday morning for his trip. I didn't speak to him until he came home. He had left his cell in his truck & couldn't or wouldn't call me from his friend's cell. He could have & he knows I know that. When he got home, I helped him put up the fish & shrimp. He made a snide remark that K's wife had supper fixed when they pulled in the drive. I told him that if I'd gotten a call, I'd have fixed supper also but I wasn't sure when they would be home. His answer "Now you know I didn't have my phone, that I left it in my truck." I said "Yes, but K had his phone." He got that irritated tone with me & I told him he didn't have to talk to me that way, that I was working as fast as I possibly could. Later, I asked him if he was glad to be home, since they stayed in a Trailer that wasn't very clean, had holes in the floor, etc. He told me he'd rather have stayed there. Now, mind you, I had cleaned the house, vaccuumed & mopped all the floors, etc. so he would come home to a nice place. He didn't notice. I said nothing about it.


I am now lost....
with what the real deal is going on there...

and also...

how is this going to be a safe place for you ..since you let him read all the responses...

there is way way too much relationship muddling here to be good for where you two are at right now...

ARK

Ark,



He noticed, just not that day & when he told me he appreciated it, he apologized for not saying something sooner, said he should have & he was working on getting better about that.



This thread was started mainly for him. He had told me no one had ever been in his shoes so how could anyone understand his feelings. It's the only one he's read & my posts on here are nothing new to him. I've said most of it before.

I guess I shouldn't have but I was trying to show him that there are people who understand, that's why I came here. Yesterday, he fired up the computer & went straight to this site. I logged in so he could read the posts. All his idea & I didn't push him to read this. After reading the ones from yesterday, that's when he told me he realized how much I loved him & that he loved me.

I'm not jumping into "Hooray!! We're recovered!!" yet. I'm waiting to see if the fog drops back in or is lifted for good. I know from here that it comes & goes.

My Plan A is not perpetual but I will admit that I've really only been putting my heart into it since May. I've been reading here & figuring out what I myself need to do.
It's coming along, since now I'm changing to make me happy & not anyone else. I like what I've changed. I fully intend to make it permanent.

I sure hope he can manage no contact. I think that will really help you get toward recovery. I'm encouraged that he is reading the stuff here.

If domestic support is important to him, I would concentrate on that. You can go ahead and make dinner, and if he isn't home on time, warm it up later.

Good job on keeping the house up!

Lost, I am sorry to say that you remind me of a person that is making excuses for behavior that just isn't making sense any longer....Plan A isn't perpetual...so, you really have only been doing it since May... your H is a WS. Period. There are no ifs or buts about that. He is a WS until he has ended any and all contact with the OW. This Plan A has been going on for almost a year since he promised NC last October. There is no arguing the math. It seems like your "plan" is a bit too dependent on his words and not his actions. There is nothing short of NC that should stop you from Plan B at this point..and I mean a NC letter, a commitment to MC and total 100% honesty and transparency. Absent those things...every single one of them being non-negotiable...you are running in quick sand.

Please look at your own signature line...

DDay 10-26-06, Promised NC never happened

I will answer the original question (haven't had time to read the whole thread and keep up).

Before I met my husband he had a short relationship with a woman who had a 6 month old baby boy. The father of the baby boy committed suicide. I don't know too many details about it other than that. But I do remember my husband had a photo of this woman (wearing a big flannel un-sexy nightgown) and him telling me about the baby's father committing suicide. Also he implied that they broke up because of the suicide so I assumed that my husband was the OM in the situation.

(Well, wouldn't you know, one of my BIL's married the sister of this woman and whenever we would visit them my WH and my new SIL would make a point to step outside or into another room to privately discuss this woman - what she's up to - whatever... This was a recurring problem with my WH throughout our marriage - his thinking he was entitled to keep photos of women from his past, keep updated about them, even to keep in touch with them...)

I think part of my WH's reason for being a serial adulterer (there are many other factors from his childhood/family) is that in order to deal with this man committing suicide my WH adopted an attitude that jealousy is the only real problem with adultery - that people should be able to 'deal' with it (and it's not the adulterers fault if they won't) Maybe WH had a need to convince himself that what he and the woman did was OK, but how that betrayed man responded was not only 'wrong', but the ONLY wrong thing about what happened?

I do know that my WH seems ABSOLUTELY OBSESSED with pointing out to me that my responses to his adulteries were 'wrong', more wrong than what he did in the first place. I know this is typical of a WS but I do think my WH had this distorted thinking already before I met him, throughout our marriage (even if he wasn't currently involved in adultery), and even now several years after the latest OW dumped him. In fact as far as I know he still blames me for the OW dumping him because I 'didn't handle it right'...

Also, my WH seemed to go overboard with making fun of me for being 'jealous'. He and OW and his family apparently thought my being upset by his adulteries was hilaroius. And of course when there were times that I did react out of anger or hurt they loved to point fingers at me and comment about how 'crazy' I supposedly was...

Also, one of the OW that my WH was having an EA with had a brother who committed suicide over a woman. I remember my WH making some pretty rude and insensitive comments right in front of this woman and her husband about her brother committing suicide! His comments were followed by a long awkward silence. I think his attitude came from his trying to deal with his own guilt over the suicide he apparently contributed to.

There's a (flawed) sort of reasoning that ties a person to something they've committed. They become even more attached to the wrong committed out of guilt. Instead of dealing with the consequences of their choices they try to condemn the consequences and/or the victims of the consequences. After all, they believe it would have been all fun and games if it weren't for the spoil-sport victims revealing the damage done. So in order to avoid the guilt they play blame the victim and cling even more tenaciously to the wrong-doing that started it all. Now, more than ever, the immoral choice MUST be defended! The OP MUST be their 'soulmate', the inappropriate behavior MUST be acceptable AND continued/repeated... Because otherwise the suffering of the victims was all in vain. Nope - much easier for the avoider of responsibility to more deeply endorse the adultery/co-adulterer and condemn the victims instead.

An update of this weekend.

NC has finally been established. He told her in a phone call with me there. His whole attitude has changed.

We went to the football game Friday night. He sat with me the whole time except for short walks for his back, in my sight the whole time. The night was good.

Saturday & Sunday I had community service at a local state park. He was on call this weekend & so had to check the plant both days. Yesterday I sent him a text message about lunch & he brought me Whataburger & sat with me while I ate. He had eaten already because he had to wait on me for about 30 minutes. He stayed with me until they came back to pick us up for more work. We laughed & talked about future plans to spend time together. He gave me gloves to wear when he saw the blister on my hand from sweeping under picnic tables. When I got home, he was watching the race & as soon as it was over, he got up & we cooked supper together. It was great.

He has been more affectionate than he has been in a long time. And he hasn't changed his mind at any time like he did before. In fact, he even let me know, without angry words, that I was beginning to argue & he wouldn't argue with me. And, yeah, I was & didn't realize it so I stopped.

I did text him & asked "just want to know. do you think you love me or do you know you love me?" I got back "I love you!" I told him Thanks, I just needed to hear it.

So far things are going good. I'm praying it holds.

Another thing I want to add.

Since he told me that Thursday, he calls me & lets me know everything he is doing. Saturday & Sunday, he called to let me know he was on his way to the plant & when he thought he would be home & that he was going shopping for new work boots. He called me Friday to let me know what was going on & when he would be at the office to pick me up.

Just the week before, he didn't want me to know what he was doing or where he was.

Keep up the changes you have been making. That is essential. After going through all this, you both deserve a much better marriage. I'm very hopeful.

Thanks, believer! I'm hopeful also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I feel we have reached that turning point that everyone says you reach & recovery starts. It's still going to be a little rough. I don't expect it to be peaches & cream right away. I want to be sure she is out of our lives.

But his attitude change makes me very hopeful for us. He told me he had never asked her to wait for him until the house sold & when he looked me in the eye & said it, I believed him. That was just before he told me he realized how much I loved him. I asked him what it was that made him realize that. He said it was my answers to the things that were said here & what I said about him. I feel that something here touched his heart & made the fog lift, hopefully for good.

I never wanted a divorce & prayed that it would never get that far. Now I want to work on getting us out of the financial sitch we're in & get back on our feet. And if the job in Ft. Worth ever comes through, I'll still look forward to moving away to start over where no one knows about all this.

Yeah, I'm keeping up the changes. I like the changes. I've done well enough that Saturday night, when I was soooo tired from community service that I fell asleep before he got home, he told me to leave the dishes in the sink & I could do them in the morning before I left for my last day of CS. I asked if he would be upset & he said no, because I was so tired & if I did them in the morning. I promised I would & I did. I thanked him for that. That is something we have always done is thank each other for the things we do for each other, except during this mess. Well, I kept it up, he didn't very much. He has started back. My best friend in high school told us one time how nice it was to hear spouses thank each other for things, she & her H never did. I was surprised because I thought everyone did that & we never thought much about it, just did it. Now it's a comforting thing to think about, since it's one more sign that my H is coming out of the fog & back to me.

You can try to figure out what needs the OW was meeting and start meeting those needs yourself. That will do a long way toward affair proofing your marriage. Will he fill out the emotional need questionnaire?

I'm not sure if he will or not. We haven't discussed that yet. I did leave my copy of SAA on his dresser with his stuff. I'm not sure if he is reading it but it's there for him to read. He may read it when I'm not around, he's done that before.

As for the EN's. I'm working on those. I'm going back over conversations we've had since D-Day, I kept a journal, & looking for things he said she did for him that he repeated more than once. Like the house, he has asked me why I didn't make that change sooner. I just told him, I didn't really understand how important that was to you, I thought you loved me anyway. I told him that now I've had things explained a different way, I understand what he's been trying to tell me better.

To be honest, I really think the only need I didn't meet was the house. That has been something that has come up all 24 years we've been married. And when she started coming on to him, which she had been doing very subtly for 3 years & then really strong in September when she caught her H for the third time with the same OW, the flattery was overwhelming. I'd always let him know how much I appreciated him & told him I loved him. But she really came on strong, according to his co-workers. And he had just turned 45 last June & was feeling that middle-age crazy, soon-to-be empty nest, I'm not where I wanted to be at this age, thing. Which I understand is not strictly a male thing. He'd also stopped taking his prozac, which he has now resumed.

Keep your fingers crossed. I know I am. Things have been looking up all weekend. Which has lasted longer than any time before.

Sounds like you are doing well. Keep it up. Dr. Harley says you can even ask the WS what was so attractive about the OW. YIKES!!! That would be hard for me. But it is a good thing to know.

believer,



I have, LOL!! And all he could tell me was what he didn't like about her. Her eyes are brown & he likes my green eyes. He says I have pretty feet & he's told her that her feet are ugly, short & stumpy toes so she always hid them from him or wore shoes. He says my skin is much softer & she doesn't have soft skin, bruises too easily & doesn't really take care of her skin. He says I'm prettier than she is & I'm younger. He says he likes that I try to look nice, i.e. polish my toes & fingers to match, wear makeup, keep my hair cut in a cute style, wear cute clothes. He says he liked the way I took care of him, fixed his lunch, things like that, which I've been allowed to start doing again. He says he likes that I get up with him every morning & walk him to the door when he leaves for work.

Believe me, that is one of the first things I asked about when I found out who she was. At first it was, she makes me feel good about myself, she caresses me, she touches me all the time, she makes me laugh, so on & so on ad nauseum. He doesn't say that anymore.

But one of his things with me was that I didn't have a sense of humor. Wasn't that, just that things from childhood hanging on made me feel sometimes like I was being made fun of & I didn't like it. I've let go of that stuff now & it has no affect on me anymore.

So I asked without finding out if it was a good idea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There is an excellent book called "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura Sclessinger. See if you can read it. It's about how to treat a husband. It's great!

By the way, how has he been at meeting your emotional needs throughout the marriage?

I can't believe some of the responses to this post.

Some of the same posters who claim that they share no responsibility for their own spouse's affair, no matter how sh*tty a spouse they were, are claiming that your WH is partly responsible for his OW's H's suicide. Interesting way for them to twist logic.

Let's see.

From their logic, no matter how crappy a spouse they were, their WS made a unilateral decision to have an affair, and thus should be required to hold 100% of the responsibility for that affair.

However, your WH's OW's H commits suicide, makes a unilateral decision to take his own life, and yet your H is somehow to blame for it, nevermind that the OW's H made the choice all by himself to end his life, and thus should be 100% responsible for taking his own life. Nobody held a gun to his head and MADE him do it. He had other options short of suicide to express his displeasure in his wife's affair, counseling, talking to a minister, seeing a psychiatrist, talking to a friend, divorcing her, etc, etc, etc.

MY point of view has been that I am partly responsible for my wife's affair, because, had I treated her properly, she would not have made the choice to have an affair. Yes, the choice was hers, but it is a choice that would not have been made had I treated her better.

Soooooo, I believe that, yes, your husband and his OW are partly responsible for her H's suicide. It is a choice that he made to kill himself, his choice alone, but it is a choice he likely would not have made had he not been distraught over the affair. Thus, they are partly to blame for his tragic ending.

So, if the affair "drove" him to commit suicide, it would also follow that the OW's H "drove" her to have the affair in the first place.

Blame, blame, blame...

This is the very reason why Dr.Harley advises AGAINST playing the blame game....

Beowulf

Suicide-

An interesting thread-first to grab my attention in at least a year.

actually first time I have been here in a year...but

Husband- suicide bereavement counsellor-sod that guilt off. most who commit suicide have a trigger event-one could break a plate and the plan is set in motion-no person is responsible other then the person who commits the act-odd how we want to give power to others.

Other woman -no doubts needs support aswell-obviously she has seen a lot, and no doubt carries a lot of guilt herself

My advice there would be- both suicide bereavement counselling....just not together

Other woman might also achieve some growth through domestic violence counselling.

Wifey-there are a number of issues at play here-talk to a counsellor yourself and take care.

Peace

Max

You noticed that too?


Yes, bad logic, I agree. But logic flies out the window when people are talking and thinking about how they have been hurt by infidelity.

Beowulf, I hope you come to the point where you see that although you may not have been the world's greatest H, your FWW's A was a reflection of her, not you.

madmax's point, with which I totally agree:


Suicide is the most selfish thing that a person can do. It is often a last-ditch attempt to gain power over others, a way of having the last word. Think of it as the ultimate passive/aggressive move. It is absolutely as selfish as having an affair, moreso in some cases, when you consider the finality of death. I think that it is asinine (and illogical) to blame another individual when a suicide occurs. People who commit suicide have essential weaknesses that others don't, just as some people have affairs due to their weaknesses and some don't.

You either choose to fix yourself or you don't. The suicide chooses not to fix his weaknesses, but to give in to them.... the choice is not made for him.

PK

pk,



On this I totally agree with you. Her H had controlled her all the 29 years they were married. He used suicide threats to control her. I told my WH that it was his last act of control over her, to make her live with & suffer over his suicide. Why? Because he waited until she was directly in front of him before he pulled the trigger. They were in separate cars, having had lunch together & she told him she would never come back to him, she was going through with the D. She stood up to him for the first time ever & he didn't like it. At that point in time, there was NC between my WH & OW. Contact resumed after the suicide.

Yes, my WH is responsible for his part in the A. When she came after him, he didn't have to say yes. Yes, I accept responsibility for my part in his decision to have the A. Looking back, I see the mistakes I made, the things I didn't understand when he tried to tell me, the things I did that made me not a very good wife. I did things to try to make up for my shortcomings instead of meeting his needs. Here I've learned how to meet those needs & make a better life for both of us.

He has always met pretty much all but one of my EN's. That being the one of recreational companionship. We haven't always spent as much time together as I would have liked. I feel like that will change now. Other than that, he has always taken care of me in all other ways. He has been a good father & took care of our girls whenever I was sick or couldn't. He took care of me when I was sick. All other areas of our life, as far as I'm concerned, were great to me. Except for the fighting, which was almost 99% about my housekeeping skills. We're working on that as well.

But the reason I started this thread was for others to share their similar stories so my WH could see that others had been in his shoes & knew how he felt. I think he finally saw that. Something written on this thread, by me or someone else, changed things for the better so far.

I'm praying it holds.

Believer,

I have seen that book & think I may have it at home. I will look because I wanted to read it.

The long road to recovery appears, so far, to have started. I know it won't be easy. But I came here for help & I got it. I didn't always like what was said, but I respected everyone's right to their own opinion, just as I have mine. But even the 2X4's helped, even if I didn't like what they said.