My WH thinks know one can understand how he feels because no one has ever been in this sitch.

The OW's W/BH committed suicide in March. They had met for lunch that day & she told him she was going through with the divorce & it had nothing to do with my WH, whom she wasn't seeing at that time. She told him she was tired of the way he'd treated her & would never come back to him. He killed himself right in front of her at the gate to the plant where my WH works. My WH was not there at the time but neither of them knew that. This man had threatened suicide many times during their 29 year marriage, even to putting the gun to his head to get her to do what he wanted.

My WH thinks that no one has ever had to deal with this before & therefore can't understand how he feels. He feels responsible for the suicide, that he caused it because he had an A with OW. He feels he owes her something because of it.

If anyone has ever been this sitch before, please let me know. I will let him read any & all posts about this question. He needs to know he's not alone & that there is someone who he can talk to.

He does owe her something. A hearfelt apology for ever participating in such immorality, deception, fraud, and devestation that resulted in a human being so distraught that they killed themselves. He owes her a committment to never ever do this again to with anyone else and hurt another family the way he hurt his and hers. He owes her an apology for being selfish, blind, immoral, and not strong enough to have done the right thing. He owes it to her to leave her the ****** alone.

hunny, let him feel the pain of his actions. I just would like to say...just like BS aren't the blame or cause of WS affairs.....you're H is not the blame of this man's (This man had threatened suicide many times during their 29 year marriage) suicide...you want to blame someone, blame OW...its her job to do everything in her power to make her H happy , and him her....however instead, she slap him with an affair.

siigghhhhhh....I would rather H be more empathetic to your pain instead of OW's pain...I know there's a death involve...maybe i'm just too cold hearted.

frankly...he IS at least partially responsible for the suicide of the BH.
He does owe her something and that is the grace enough to never darken her doorstep again...he will forever be a reminder of what she has allowed to happen.
The OW and your H are most likely at an elevated risk for suicide themselves right now having to live with the guilt of what they have done.
My question is for you here...how do you feel living with a man that created such turmoil in another's life that it resulted in a suicide? There is no judgement there...just an honest question if this is causing you any issues.

WB10...and it is her WH's job to not sleep with another man's wife. Just because he did not have vows with this man does not mean he did not have an obligation to be respectful of the union they formed...he is every bit as guilty as the OW.

Hope and Pray is right on with this. He is responsible as she is. His immoral behavior with another immoral person resulted in the death of an innocent party. He does NOT owe the OW any support. He owes you the apology for the mess he has made. He owes her an apology for his own indecent and selfish behavior in interacting with her.

I was very close to this point myself as many BS's here have been. My children are the reason I'm still here. Would the OW have cared about my weakness, or the total destruction her actions, along with my WH's in the destruction of mine or my children's lives? Noo.

The lesson learned?? It depends on how grown up your WH wants to be, His actions have consequences and he shouldn't compound them by wanting to continue to "Help his friend".

FTS

Well, he is partially responsible. He caused this man enormous pain by screwing his wife. Cruel actions do have consequences, and sometimes this is one of them.

He can't make it up to the man, of course, because he is dead, but perhaps he could set up a trust fund for the man's children since they no longer have a father?

Now HERE'S a subject I don't want to even touch.

Their children are grown. One son married, the other on the run from the law.

This man had used suicide to control her. Every time she didn't do what he wanted or she threatened to leave when she caught him with another woman, he would put a gun in his mouth & tell her he would pull the trigger. He had planned this suicide for 2 weeks.

I guess I'm hard-hearted but I felt like this was his final act of control over her. Yes, my WH is partially responsible, I guess, for having an A with his wife. But I also believe life is about choices & you don't make that kind of choice for anyone. My WH had asked her repeatedly to go back to her H when it all came out. She chose not to.

As far as I'm concerned, not much sympathy since he threatened to do it in my front yard in front of my daughter & I. I'm mad because he controls from the grave this way.

sorry...those details in no way excuse your H from his part in killing this man. And how do YOU know her H used suicide to control her??? Because she said so???? I mean where else could those details come from??? And I wouldn't take the word of that OW under any circumstances.

Lost...

The only "solution" for your WH here is to live a life of what is right, just, good and true from now on...That would include honoring his wedding vows...NOT honoring them is what has landed him in this position in the first place...

All WS's feel they "owe" something to the OP at first...Your WH is not unique or special one bit regarding that...It is the nature of the beast...There is not one thing he can do to bring this man back...No amount of being with the OW will ever fix this situation...In fact, he'd do best to remember that he will NEVER be able to distance himself from that tragedy while with her...I guarantee you that it would be thrown in his face for YEARS to come if he remained with her...She'll likely be looking for a place to lay her own guilt for sometime, and he would be the BEST target for that...

Seriously, honoring his rightful commitments before God is the ONLY way to go here...

On the "trust fund" idea...Hmmm, well here are a few thoughts on that...(1) Something like that would be a POJA issue with you-doing that would be taking money from YOUR family and only you could deem how comfortable you would be with that arrangement-personally, I wouldn't dig it...(2) If you were to be okay with it, he'd want to buy an annuity that would just pay the children...a trust fund he would have to manage, which would keep you all wrapped up with that sitch for years to come-not good, IMO...(3) You have to ask and wonder how the children would feel about this "blood money"...personally I would have a hard time spending it...I honestly wouldn't want it, but that's just me...dunno...

Anyway, FWIW, those are my thoughts as a FWS myself...

Mrs. W

sorry to hammer home the point...but do you have first hand knowledge of the Om's affairs? First hand??? Could this not be the lies and justifications of a lying, cheating and heartless OW???

>I'm mad because he controls from the grave this way.


I'm mad because wh and ow are using this to justify their continued poor choices.

They are using the EXACT same emotional extortion that the deceased did....

Which makes it just as appalling, if not more so, since in all reality NO ONE CONTROLS ANOTHER PERSON FROM THE GRAVE (that's just crazy talk, imo).

"the dead guy made me do it"

Yeah, right.

removed

Dang... a lot of people posted when I was writing that! I agree, it's no justification for them to continue an A. He was unstable, she knew it. She holds more accountability than him, but your H does own some of it.

Oh yeah... and your H is lucky he's still alive too. Her H could have gone on a shooting rampage. You'd think it would scare him into wanting to stay away from situations like this.

IMHO,

There is only one person who can make a decision to take their own life. Certainly the actions of this man's WW and your WH contributed to the circumstances that led him to make this decision, but the decision was his alone.

The OW in my sitch threatened suicide and exposure to me everytime my FWH attempted to end the A. This went on for 4 months before he finally had enough and told her he didn't care what she did, it was over.

Far as I know the cow is still stealing air somewhere in California, probably screwing some other womans husband right now.

Your FWH needs to stop worrying about OW and show some concern for the one he vowed to love, honor, and cherish. Sure, he feels some remorse for the guys suicide, and he should, but continuing to "be there" for OW would be just another in a series of bad decisions that are ruining innocent lives.

JMHO,

Who

This man had used suicide to control her.

oh horse feathers.....she wasn't under the control of anyone past the first suicide threat....

this is bullpucky.

blah blah..first time someone pulls a gun out I'm calling the police...and from the millisecond on I am not ever ever ever being in the same environment with the moron with a gun or access to guns...

PERIOD>....

after that first time she was a willing participant in a sick twisted game of roulette...

she volunteered...
she had children with the nut case
she is NO victim haunted from the grave..
she put up with and then added crap upon crap..

his affair.....her affair...his affair...her affair...




infact why YOU haven't called the police on your own husbands suicide threat is beyond me...

guess when things get tough he's learned how to control you and play the suicide card...

your husband needs serious intervention
NOW
TODAY

call the police

ARK

I don't know either, its a tough situation and there are lots of factors that would have to be considered. For me, if I had contributed to someone's suicide, I would hope to find a way to make just compensation. [instead of making excuses about why the sorry SOB deserved it anyway, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I am NOT impressed by that] And maybe the only just compensation is to stay away and live a faithful, decent life. That may be the answer here. Who knows? But I would hope I would sincerely seek ways to make just compensation in earnest.

I once knew a lady in AA who, while drunk, backed out over an 18 month old baby girl and killed her. Of course, the baby shouldn't have been outside under her car, but she still felt responsible for it and may very well have noticed the baby if she hadn't been drunk. There was no way she could ever bring that baby back or ever fully compensate those devastated parents, but she did set up a trust fund for their other child and did everything in her power to compensate those people.

But, if I were Lost's H I would feel guilty too. That is not a bad sign, but a sign of decency. That is his conscience saying "this really sucks and I don't appreciate it!" Which will help him think long and hard about screwing around with someones wife again.

Whome...would you feel that way if this was a rape victim that killed herself as a result of the trauma inflicted on her? I think most people would be empathetic to the rape victim...the DECISION was his alone...I agree...but the people that caused the trauma that drove him to that act are culpable.

My personal values would not allow me to remain married to a person that was at a minimum partially responsible for the death of another. Even if the OW is to be believed here and this man threatened suicide for 25 years...which again, I don't believe anything that comes from the yap of a WS...amazing how he survived until this OM came along and pushed him over the edge.

If someone is going to kill you with a gun, the police will merely be there to draw you a chalk outline.

My wife chose to have me killed with a truck, even though she and her OM has guns and the police were useless as in so many other situations.

Being aware of your situation and surroundings is far better than relying on big brother.

ummm, have you ever been to TEXAS??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> YOU would get arrested for pestering the police with calls like that! They would say "and your point is...........??" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mel<----moron who is packing heat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

cept when the gun's place in ONES mouth...
then the police step up....

Texas mouths are for bar-b-Que...Salsa...and big fat tall tales....allllllllllllllllllll about texas....

ain't no room for no saturdaynight special with all that in there already...

ARK

part of me is sorry for making light of this (here/now) up above though let me just say...once again that the WS was NO victim to repeatitive suicide attempts....

Pariah...sorry you had a bad experience but te advice was sound and you exceptionally limited experience does not change that.

mecd,


Yes I would, because I did say that certainly the behavior of the man's WW and her OM contributed to his making the decision to take his own life. They should feel some guilt.

I see this as similar to a BS contributing to the condition of a marriage in such a manner that the WS makes a decision to have an affair. The BS can share responsibility for the condition of the marriage, but the WS owns the decision to have an affair.

Even in the case of a rape victim, there are solutions to that pain other than suicide. As my Pastor once told me, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation.

Who

Didn't the OW threaten your H with her own suicide in July? Does she own a gun too?

Both the OW and her husband sound nuttier than squirrell poo, and they have infected Lost's family with their emotional ecoli (specifically her wh - who is still not fully taking his penicillian).

Your wh CANNOT FIX HER. He cannot make this better for her. She is broken, and only SHE can glue her pieces back together.

He can only fix himself - and the only real way to do this is to back off the crazy nutter.

Listen, VD (the OW in my sitch) SLASHED her wrists in front of my husband. When he took her to the hospital she said, "See, I knew I could get you back." Later, she tried the suicide threat again and he had wised up to it. Guess what she did then? MADE UP A RAPE. Filed it and everything.

The point? These people KNOW what they are doing and escalate it accordingly when they don't get the response they are looking for.

I find some of the responses to this thread upsetting and insensitive. The fact that many of you heartlessly chose to disregard the validity of OW's claims of abuse by her husband to focus on the betrayal she perpetrated by having an affair is well...disturbing. Having been a victim of this type of abuse I can sympathize with this womans pain. My WH threatened suicide several times during our marriage as a means to control and intimidate me. The times I chose not to call the police were because I was afraid that he would shoot me or my daughter instead of himself. Your callous responses really shocked me.

There really is no excuse for her affair. But her affair is IMHO not the reason her husband killed himself. That could have happened if she had left him FOR ANY REASON. He was trying to control her and this behavior would have continued regardless of her affair. That being said the WH in this situation should feel remorse for his affair and that alone. He was not responsible for the BS's suicide. He was a sick and troubled man.

I am not "nuttier than squirrel poo" for having made the mistake of marrying a man capable of such behavior. I did not ask to be treated that way and am working very hard to not be treated that way ever again.

She (the OW) is nuttier than squirrel poo for trying the same tack that her husband did when MM tried to break up with her.

Yep.

It's emotional extortion at it's finest.

BTDT, got the t-shirt and it HOOVERS.

I know FIRST HAND that kind of extortion and I'm not talking about what my FWH went through.

And as I said, this is about the WH and OW turning this into a bullet with which to strafe Lost's family into shreds.

It's nothing more or less.

OW might be broken by her abusive husband, but SHE'S USING THAT ABUSE FOR HER OWN GAIN.

It's a vicious, ugly circle that Lost's husband CAN put an end to.

Just what do you mean by exceptionally limited experience?

I might have had a gun pointed in my face before and had to send a man home in a plastic bag.

lies,

Sorry you had to experience this. I understand your point of view.

I honestly believe that my FWH was at the point of suicide when he ended his affair. He thought he could have the affair without it having any affect on the rest of his life.

He was wrong, and then OW just wouldn't let go. He was scared and knew that he was being manipulated by OW, but his fear of what she would do kept him under her control, for nearly 4 months.

I could see him becoming more and more angry and his behavior was degenerating before my eyes. I think that he was at the point point of suicide on the day he ended the affair.

I don't doubt that one person can control another by such threats. I stand by my opinion that the decision to end ones life, rests with only them.

Who

Lieslies...You will never find a bigger opponent against abuse than me. NEVER.

My point is...WS lie about their partners all the time..it is the nature of the beast. If the only source of this information is the WS..it is suspect at best. Liars lie.

Having an OW perpetrate this type of behavior on your WH is not the same as experiencing it yourself. So, no you haven't BTDT. I do not need to have a debate with you D to prove my point. I said what I had to say, agree with it or don't. FWIW, I don't think OW is using this to her advantage. It seems that the WH may be using the suicide as a justification to continue contact with OW. If that is the case, then shame on him.

Why don't you think the other woman would use this to her advantage??? Has she shown herself to have good moral character where she is above reproach???

Look, I deal with abuse victims every single day. For your information....it is a very under reported crime...but when it IS reported..it is also fabricated at a much higher percentage than other crimes. Couple that with the information coming from a WS and at the very least it needs to be viewed with suspicion. Just my opinion based on years of experience.

Actually, I have BTDT.... READ MY POST. I said it wasn't just my FWH that lived through this before...

ARGH.

You assume much obviously w/out reading the WHOLE post.

>It seems that the WH may be using the suicide as a justification to continue contact with OW

YES. That is what I was saying.

I think OW is too, since she PULLED this on the WH..."If you break up with me, I'm going to harm myself."

Thanks everyone for the input.

I have had friends who have been controlled by abuse. Yes, she did call the police, they put him in a mental ward for the night & sent him home the next day. No, Texas police do not get involved in domestic situations. Case in point, we lost a local constable who was shot due to a domestic situation just a few miles down the road from my WH's work. He died instantly. Even with a restraining order, they have to do something harmful before police intervene & then most of the time you're already dead.



Yepper, since we had to move out of our house for a week after he died because he'd talked to a hit man & the hit man came to the funeral. I know this only because he was best friends with the security guards at the plant & the one who went to my WH's boss was with her W/BH when it was discussed in November. He was scared for about 2 weeks. And still thinks that they will come after him on the anniversary of his death. Personally, that would make me stay away from her because who knows who will be with him if it does happen.



Some of my knowledge comes from his friends & law enforcement in his town. He was well known for his abuse & instability, according to the officer who investigated the hit man thing. He talked to neighbors, friends, law officers, etc. before telling us that we probably had nothing to worry about. He said that since it had been investigated & it was public knowledge, no hit man in his right mind would show up & take a chance on getting caught. But we are still cautious.

I'm not saying my WH is completely guilt free. But knowing the past sitch with this man, I don't think he was the TOTAL cause of it, like he thinks. She actually taunted her H with info about the A, their sexual escapades, etc. Her H told me about this when he harrassed me on the phone. She would throw it in his face worse than mine ever did. Mine only said things when I asked. I think she wanted him to do it because that night, she was in a bar partying with friends. Witnesses at the scene said their youngest son (the one with law trouble) walked up to the body & said "I sure am glad his a$$ paid my lawyer fees before he pulled this sh*t." Talk about family love!! He is buried in a cemetary on my WH's route to work, right by the highway, so my WH sees it every day, 2X a day. I think she planned that & I think she is playing on his guilt now.

I know he shares guilt because of the A. But I also know that NC had been going on for a little longer than a month when this happened. It broke after this happened. So her decision to not go back was her own. Once my WH contacted her again, she has waited on him ever since.

So I think it's high time my WH quit playing in the pity pool, pick his a$$ up & start putting his & our life back together. IMHO, continued contact with her, even though they don't see each other, will only keep the guilt alive. He will never be able to heal & neither will she. I know what is the right thing to do. Now he needs to know it.

Maybe no one can understand his feelings about this. I know I've tried. And I've been affected by this, too. I think if he establishes NC & stays away, no one in her family or any of her W/BH friends will have any reason to come after my WH. JMO, but that's how I feel. And I can't move on either while I'm still reminded about it all the time.

He's convinced no one else has ever been in this sitch.

I wish I could get everyone's input on here & answer it. As I mentioned above, most of my info comes from law enforcement & family friends. People who had witnessed it first hand. The security guard who told us about the hit man was scared to death when he saw him at the funeral. He called the plant as soon as he left the cemetary. So he felt there was a valid reason that it was a possibility. It was investigated by a Texas Ranger. I know how crazy he was just from phone calls to me. He knew where we lived. He would call me & tell me that he drove by & he knew my WH was not home. He had vehicle descriptions & license plate numbers, our home & cell phone numbers. One night he had me so upset in the car, I almost ran off the road & I told him that if I did because of him, I would find him & come down on him like the wrath of God & to never call me again. Once he even called his cell phone & it showed our home number. Only thing I can think of is he was at the house & called from the phone box outside on the dark side of the house. It would have been so easy.

Yes, she threatened to commit suicide & she has all her H's guns. I sent her a message & offered her my 9 mil if she needed any help, told her I would load it with new bullets. I told her that way she would be out of my life forever. I know, bad thing I done, but I felt better after I unloaded on her. Since then, I've told her that no law in Heaven or on Earth gives her the right to take what belongs to someone else. She has supposedly decided that my WH is stringing her along & moving on with her life. Hope so.

I know from the same sources, that he not only mentally abused her but physically also. She was afraid to leave & I know how that is from friends who have been through the same thing. I truly do sometimes believe she wanted him to do it so she wouldn't have to deal with him after a divorce. She wasn't too upset about it, even though it happened in front of her face. I wouldn't be able to leave my house if a complete stranger committed suicide in front of me. My WH has been more traumatized than she has.

Yes, he's guilty of the A. But someone who has threatened suicide for years is the only one responsible for the choice to actually go through with it. I don't think the A pushed him over the edge. I think her filing for divorce did & that's a decision she made all on her own. She suddenly got a backbone & he didn't like it. My WH had told her he was going home to try to work things out with me. Yes, he was a WS. Same sources have given info about the OW for him & the STD his W got from the A. He kept going back to this OW & she had caught them together again just before the A with my WH started. I sometimes feel she was using my WH to get back at her WH. Not a good thing.

Keep the posts coming. I will let him read them when I get home tonight.

I concur.

He needs to realize he CANNOT fix this for her nor is he obligated to fix anyone but you and himself.

- Kimmy

well...if he is the only one responsible for his suicide...which I do not agree with..then your H was responsible for anything that happened to your fanily as a result of his affair. If this man tracked down and hurt your H...which by the way...he deserved...it would have been your H's fault. It's semantics to say the affair didn't push him over the edge because she most likely filed and abused him in part because of the affair. We see that all the time on these boards and some very stable people have been pushed to suicide attempts as a result of an affair....good people have killed their spouses and/or affair partners....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

This is a situation I was close to in real life.

Well, the OW says she was going to leave. She says it had nothing to do with her affair. Hmmmmm.

I would buy it IF she left on her own, with no one waiting in the wings. Also, most people who have gone through hard times in a marriage, would not want to inflict pain on another person - YOU.

She sounds like a pig to me. I can't imagine continuing the affair when hubby shot himself at your husband's work. I think that would have been a wake up call for me that I needed to do some careful examination of my life.

Lost, your situation was one that I discussed with a friend tonight and I am left to wonder if you are in a position where you feel compelled to absolve your H of a great amount of responsibility concerning the death of the BH. I would imagine that absent your seeing a loophole in this whole fiasco, you would be left married to man that was very instrumental in the death of an innocent. If you take a look at Bob's story... I would say that the WW and the Om in that case are as guilty as if they hanged him themselves. Are you afraid to see the damage that your H has helped bring to that family because you wouldn't be able to live with a man that committed such a "crime?" Imagine the depth that your H has sunk to knowing that his affair could continue even after the death of his "competition."
I think that rightfully so right now, your H is carrying a burden around with him that could well impact him for the rest of his life.
As far as the level of trauma that she has dealt with... I have watched people die...some have died in my arms...and I can tell you that sometimes it hits all at once and other times....it hits years later. It is not always a reflection of the amount of pain....just an ability to process.
Personally....while she may have gone "fatal attraction" your H at a minimum directed the movie. If I were in his shoes, based on his own behavior, I would learn to sleep with one eye open. You are an innocent in this...and it is a shame that any of this has touched you...but I would be very surprised if this was entirely over.

believer,


Actually, she did leave him during one of the times my WH had come home to me. And I thought the same thing you did, I would never do to my worst enemy what she has done to me. Especially the part of acting like my friend.

Yeah, she's a pig. I left her a voicemail once asking her why she had to take away the only man I ever loved. This was recently. She called my WH & told him about the VM. She said the answer was 'because she wanted him.' He asked her if she always got what she wanted & she said no. He told her I had a right to feel the way I did. You know, if she'd been younger & prettier, I think I could have understood it better. I've since found out how trashy she is. Like the night she came to a club I was at & sat at the table with me, one person between us. I wish everyone, including my WH, could've seen the way she acted. And, to my credit, I wouldn't look her in the face, even when she walked in front of me. She wanted me to hit her, but I wouldn't stoop that low.

Like I said, I think she wanted him to off himself so she wouldn't have to deal with him after the divorce, because she knew he would never leave her alone.

Everyone, thanks for the input, even the stuff I don't quite agree to. But everyone has the right to their own opinion. I let my WH read them all. Some he didn't like, some seem to make him think. He read the story bob posted. It was very sad & when WH commented that it was awful, I said I know the feeling that caused it. To his credit, my WH & OW did not flaunt their A that blatantly. They didn't go to each other's houses & didn't do a big public thing about it or go out of town together like that. Actually, in the town where WH works, our DD#1 lives, so he had to be careful where he went with her so they didn't run into DD#1. That would not have been good. Thank God for small favors. I have never seen them anywhere together, except D-day & I never saw her face that morning, she hid under the bedspread.

Still, maybe something he saw here got through to him. He seems to be leaning more toward me than her right now. Her best friend at his work tells him it's none of his business if he asks about her.

I will still appreciate any more comments & posts about this sitch. And anything from anyone who has actually been in this sitch. I think he's beginning to realize he's not alone. I hope I can get him to talk to someone here on this board.

Can you call the Harleys? I think you need professional help, especially with this sad issue.

medc,

No, I feel he is partially responsible because of the A. But I don't think he should take TOTAL blame for it because she is equally to blame. I say this because I know for a fact that she went after my WH & not the other way around. I wonder sometimes if it was for revenge on her W/BH. But, upon learning of his history of threatening this, I also see it as a control issue. He wanted to control her by doing it in front of her. I'm not really sure he picked my WH's plant because of my WH or because the security guard on duty was his best friend & would call 911 when he did it.

I don't want my WH to take total & complete blame for something he didn't want to happen. I don't like him feeling obligated to her because of it. Because of the threat of bodily harm to my WH & to her W/BH, NC had been established to prevent this. But it didn't matter anyway.

I want him to say, "yeah, I had an A with OW. yeah, her W/BH committed suicide. but I'm back with my W & I am going to stay there & we will work through this together."

Life is about choices, choices to kill yourself, to have an A, to have children, to live. Despair can drive someone to make a choice. But it can also drive them to chose to do the opposite of what they feel they want to do, to find a reason to live. I've always believed that if you think you're making a mistake, it probably is & you shouldn't do it.

There also exists the possibility that he didn't mean to pull the trigger, that because he waited until her car was even with him, he meant to scare her into stopping & giving him what he wanted. Just as he'd done before. But he also talked to his pastor who told him that he could still go to Heaven if he committed suicide, he just had to be saved first. I'm a preacher's daughter, I don't believe that. I don't believe you can ask for forgiveness for something & then do it anyway. Sin is sin, if you're forgiven, you shouldn't do it. I consider suicide to be 1 of the 2 unforgivable sins. Denying God is the 1st.

I know my WH carries some guilt for this. My purpose in this thread was so he could see that he is not alone, that others have been where he is now. He thinks no one else has ever been in this sitch before so therefore can't possibly know how he feels. I think he's wrong about that. I've found people here who are in similar if not exactly the same sitch I'm in. It feels good having a place to talk to someone who understands. I want him to eventually see this as a place he can come to.

I'm glad he read them all. I hope he sees he's not alone.

believer,

If I can ever find a way to afford it, I will. Right now our financial sitch prevents that. He went to a local IC but felt worse when he left. And won't go back. I was in IC but finances have stopped that temporarily. But the IC's here don't do things like the Harleys do.

I know it sounds like I'm making excuses for him & maybe I am. Because I love him & I've never wanted anyone to think bad about him. I just don't want him to take total blame for something he was not totally responsible for. None of us really know what her W/BH was thinking that day, not even her.

If you live close to Longview, there are counselors at Mobberly who are very familiar with MB. That is how I got here.

Stop communicating with the OW. She is toxic. Her H committed suicide, they had problems of their own. The A was additional drama and in the OW's case, there will always be drama.

Is your H responsible? As much as anyone who enables the OW's ways. So in a sense yes, he is. OW's H threatened suicide for lots of reasons b4 the A as well, right? So this isn't something new. It was a pattern of which the OW s/b punished for NOT doing something corrective about it. Instead she choose to make matters worse and incorporate others (i.e. you and your H) why? Because of her selfish need.

She is toxic and if your WS wants t/b around toxic you ought to get away ASAP from the WS. Because you can see what it has already done to you.

I am sorry to hear anyone committed suicide but that is OW's family and the issue needs to stay there. If your H is dumb enough to continue contact with the OW, you ought to get away ASAP!

JMHO,
L.

Lost
You should perhaps know that I attempted suicide just after D-day. Out of my mind with grief and full of alcohol and ADs I drove my sports car into a tree. I was too drunk to aim straight and walked away from the wreck with cuts. Thank God !.

I can fully understand when a BS just wants to get away from the pain permanently.

My process of pain after D-Day #3 hit me like a concrete block (nearly literally) when I was driving with a client nobody liked with me in the car.

In my stupor (even though I don't drink), I thought I would do my co-workers a favor and take the client out with me by slamming my car into a concrete bridge abutment.

More than might admit it have experienced A-related suicidal tendencies. The weak ones succeed, I didn't....... with a little help from what I now believe was an angelic vision of the harm such a selfish act would do to my children.

Had I succeeded, it seems that my H would have felt the same tremendous guilt, which I discovered later in MC.

Ace

Can he not look past what is done and see what is NOW?
Yes, he was probably loading some kindling into the already deranged mind of the W/BS, but he has to see that his suffering on thi earth is over. He is now doing to you and your kids what he "thinks" he did to W/BS, Can he not see your suffering and your pain?

Its' time you stood up on your hind legs and said "What about ME?, what about our kids?" It's time he stopped wallowing in it and be a man, and that means leaving OW in the dust. She after all, is not his victim. She had a part in this, she was a volunteer in this affair. This one is on her, moreso, than your WS.

This man is abusive to you, whether you see it or not.
Getting mad over an accident! So what, he's always pouted since childhood. It gives him no excuse as an adult.

Why haven't we heard "Thank God and Greyhound, he's gone?"
I think you should be getting pretty close. Sorry that this is so harsh, but, girl you are worth so much more than he is giving!

lost...

please can we cut the smokescreen...

all of these opinions here about this issue....
(which is not a reflection at all of the dear dear posters who have shared their thoughts, opinion, and trial )

is like just fodder to feed the philosophical aspect....

when the reality of what you have is a husband who verbalizes feeling bad enough to hurt himself....

mucked up with a long history of feigned and real suicide attempts...

the reality is your husband is in crisis...

how ironic to play twenty twenty hindsight....

with past suicide threats and attempts...

when right in front of you is a husband verbalizing suicidal ideation...

does he have a plan...how when where
does he have access to execute the plan....

does he promise to tell someone prior to execution...

those are the questions professionals care about.....

those are the core issues.....

you have NO plan...to address what's right in front of you
you have NO plan to addess the reality of his verbalizations...


you have NO plan...
and I am begging you to get one...

for all of this...

for the suicidal ideation verbalized by him
for the sanctimoniuos blathering he repeatedly hits you with that you placate...

this place marriage builders is alllllll about a plan...

not perfect
not with an ounce of garuntee....
but a place atleast to ground a person when they are acting only on what they know from the past...

I am not convinced that this site can save anyone....
it's not the end all and be all...

but it is what it is....

a set philosophy of how to address the same old age old since man walked up right and marriage was established stain ...

infidelity...

period...

the philosophical question that needs taken from the philosophical realm and brought down to reality

is

what is YOUR plan....

cause until you pick a plan...

I have no idea how to help you...

ARK

Interesting point. When I was in undergraduate school, I did a research paper on the police treatment of rape victims. Mind you, this was back in the day when there were nearly zero women working in law enforcement. I interviewed dozen of police officers in more than one state and over and over again got the same response to my questions. Bottom line was that nearly half of reported rape accusations ended up to be a fabrication either entirely or to some extent.

A few years later, I saw this first hand. One night when I was an Army MP 2LT pulling time as Duty Officer, I responded to a rape allegation. The situation involved two teenage family members of different races. They were having sex outdoors in the family housing area when a neighbor discovered them and called the girls parents. All of a sudden, the girl claimed rape. Clearly, what was actually consentual became rape.





You can add my name to the list of BS who attempted suicide. I took nearly 100 extra strength tylenol PM's just a couple of weeks following D-day. Then I ran from the house and hid in the woods for several hours to make sure they were completely in my system.

I ended up in the hospital for five days in ICU with everyone including the doctors, myself and my family not knowing whether I would live or die.

Yes, my FWH's actions caused the pain and anger that brought me to the point of decision. But I made the decision.

In the end, I believe that if I had not survived, my FWH would have followed suit. Heck, the only one who would have survived the A, would have been the OW, and I know without a doubt that she would have felt no guilt.

Lost,

IMHO, the OW doesn't feel guilty here, she is using her BH's suicide as yet another means of keeping your WH involved. He needs to commit to NC right now and stick with it or you need to remove yourself from this drama.

Before OW comes after you with a gun.

Who

l24y:

This thread reads more like a "what if" discussion than your other thread. I posted my view on this subject on your other thread. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the "feel" I get here that by putting your efforts in2 this thread rather than the one more directly about your sitch - all of it - that your WH is using this discussion as a means of detaching himself from the responsibility he has in this, however small compared with what the OWH may or may not have done.

But I will post about this comment of yours:


Doesn't matter a hill of beans where or at what angle he's leaning. The affair is not over until it's completely over.

Get away from him. Plan B his sorry @$$. Stop worrying about how far he's leaning and in what direction. That's his pathetic problem.

-ol' 2long

agree 100%

If it's time for Plan B, then lost needs some input on what specific steps she can take to help her get into Plan B.

Finances are a problem, neither of them can afford to live on their own. She has tried to kick her H out of the house several times, but it hasn't worked. He generally refuses to go. At one point he was living in the camper outside, but coming in the house for showers, etc. He's moved back in to the house in the last couple of months, sometimes in the bedroom, sometimes on the couch, and at that point she promised that she won't ever kick him out again.

There is the potential for a job in another city for her H, but that hasn't gone anywhere in a while.

Their house is on the market, but hasn't sold yet. They also still have one child in high school.

So she has some big hurdles to get over in order to get into Plan B. Does anyone have suggestions on how she can make enough of a break from him when combined they can barely afford a place as it is, so she obviously can't afford to get a place for herself, and he refuses to leave the house?

Melody,

I live about 45 miles from Longview. I didn't know there were any IC's here who were familiar with MB. Thanks for the info.

To everyone,

Thanks for the help. As stupid as it sounds, I still love him. Don't know why & have never needed a reason. Just because. That's why I've stayed. I don't think my WH will ever go through with a suicide attempt because of the kids. But I know the despair he feels when he gets to that point. Because of my religious beliefs, I would never attempt it. But as much as I love him, & I love him more than anything, I would never kill myself over him because I have 2 girls who still need me, even though they're pretty much grown. I've told him that. I think he feels the same way.

Guilt can do a lot of damage to a person. I'm seeing it firsthand now. Yes, he needs help, but until he hits the lowest point in his life, just like an alcoholic or drug addict, he'll never get it. I'm almost there.

Yes, I feel she is using this to keep him with her. But I can't stop her. He has to. I feel she is no danger to me because she is afraid of me.

Another reason I've stayed is finances. I can't make it on my own right now unless the house sells. My biggest fear is he has told her to wait for him until the house sells so he can afford a divorce & be with her. That I'm being played like a fine violin. I can't tell anymore when he's being sincere & truthful.

How do you turn the love off??

I started this thread so he could finally see that he's not unique, not alone & that someone else has been where he is.

AMi..
Lots of suggestions have been and are being made...

they just aren't being heard...

they are all filtered first off with

but I love him...

so what?
is my answer to that...

in that love
there is so much enabling...

enabling of childish
actions
and verbalizations....

lost you yourself engage verbally with him with outrageous
statements...

stating lets date others
agreeing to live together and pretend on the outside that everything is go while going seperate ways in the home...

being part of a patern in which you agree or placate ridiculous statements with the notion since he doens't REALLY mean them..there's no harm or foul in him expressing them....

the relentless relationship talk with him which right now is futile and empty....

the disregarding of suicidal ideation....

the answer to you need a plan is NOT that you love him...

dr. Dobson wrote love must be tough...
not
since you love him go ahead and run the whole thing in to the ground....

How about if this was me ..
I'd move my OWN [censored] in to the camper...

does is mother live near by..
He can go live there...

does your mother live near by..
you and your child can go live there...

ARK

You can love him but not make stupid choices based on loving what is now a WS.

Love your H instead. I am sure your H w/b appalled to know you are enabling any type of A behavior. In fact, your non-action is showing your H you don't love him but are willing to support the WS instead of your H. What kind of loyalty is that?

Your mind and heart are not in sync. That's one reason why you are stagnant in your progress. You will stay in that mode until you lose all your love for him. It w/b wasted energy since the WS wants to see you lose and suffer endless pain.

Are these harsh words? Yes....they are given to make you see things as they really are so you can make some real productive plans and not waste time wallowing after a WS when your H needs you.

Let us know when you want to know how to plan A your H and plan B the WS.

L.

After reading the responses to this thread last night, all except orchid's, my WH looked at me & said "I just realized something."

"what" I asked. "I just realized how much you really do love me." he replied. "That's what I've been telling you." I told him. He said "I know. But I just now really & truly realized it & you know what? I love you."

The fog lifted temporarily & I saw my H again. He had tears in his eyes. I wanted to jump for joy but not yet. He told me he wanted to make this work because he has to. I asked why. Because I want it to, that's why, he said.

Yes some of the things he read here made him mad. But some of them made him think also. I'm not saying it's finally over & the fog is gone. I'm holding back on that right now. But I felt better for the rest of the night & this morning. We'll see. I know one thing for sure. We haven't been arguing because when he starts to argue, I just look at him & say, "I'm not going to argue with you. We can talk about this in a normal tone or you can go away until you cool down." Then I say no more & walk away. The house has been peaceful in the last few weeks. Almost like it was when we first married.

I think he talked to OW on Tuesday. I'm not sure if I should bring it up or leave it alone & see how things will go after last night. The things I started in my probably not-so-good Plan A, I have kept up. Cleaning house, picking up after myself, making his lunch & getting up with him every morning. Doing things for him just because I want to, not because I have to. When he came home Monday from his fishing trip, the house was clean & there was no argument & no bad mood. He noticed & told me he appreciated it. I'm getting better every day with the cleaning thing even though there are other things I'd rather do. I understand now in a way I never did before that it was one of his EN. Ain't it funny how someone can explain something in a different way & you can finally see what someone wanted you to see?

I'm hoping now after reading this, he will start to deal with the guilt. My MIL told me guilt can either save you or destroy you, it's your choice as to what you let it do to you. I think she's right.

until he ends all contact and you are willing to hold him accountable for that...this is all just words. Yu have been dealing with EMPTY words of NC since last October...yes...almost a year! Words mean nothing without consistent actions. It is like he wants to give you a little nibble of what you need just to keep you pacified for a while longer...and he is good at this. If you keep meeting his EN's even though he has not ended contact...tell me...what possible reason will he have to ever completely sever ties with the POS OW.

I thought part of Plan A was meeting his needs & not expecting him to meet mine until after withdrawal & he was fully working on recovery. NC possibly started yesterday. I don't know yet & don't know how to bring it up.

As I said, I'm holding back on believing it right now. I need to see more.

Plan A was NOT meant to be perpetual.

lost..
which is the real scenario...


When he came home Monday from his fishing trip, the house was clean & there was no argument & no bad mood. He noticed & told me he appreciated it.

or this one...

He left on Saturday morning for his trip. I didn't speak to him until he came home. He had left his cell in his truck & couldn't or wouldn't call me from his friend's cell. He could have & he knows I know that. When he got home, I helped him put up the fish & shrimp. He made a snide remark that K's wife had supper fixed when they pulled in the drive. I told him that if I'd gotten a call, I'd have fixed supper also but I wasn't sure when they would be home. His answer "Now you know I didn't have my phone, that I left it in my truck." I said "Yes, but K had his phone." He got that irritated tone with me & I told him he didn't have to talk to me that way, that I was working as fast as I possibly could. Later, I asked him if he was glad to be home, since they stayed in a Trailer that wasn't very clean, had holes in the floor, etc. He told me he'd rather have stayed there. Now, mind you, I had cleaned the house, vaccuumed & mopped all the floors, etc. so he would come home to a nice place. He didn't notice. I said nothing about it.


I am now lost....
with what the real deal is going on there...

and also...

how is this going to be a safe place for you ..since you let him read all the responses...

there is way way too much relationship muddling here to be good for where you two are at right now...

ARK

Ark,



He noticed, just not that day & when he told me he appreciated it, he apologized for not saying something sooner, said he should have & he was working on getting better about that.



This thread was started mainly for him. He had told me no one had ever been in his shoes so how could anyone understand his feelings. It's the only one he's read & my posts on here are nothing new to him. I've said most of it before.

I guess I shouldn't have but I was trying to show him that there are people who understand, that's why I came here. Yesterday, he fired up the computer & went straight to this site. I logged in so he could read the posts. All his idea & I didn't push him to read this. After reading the ones from yesterday, that's when he told me he realized how much I loved him & that he loved me.

I'm not jumping into "Hooray!! We're recovered!!" yet. I'm waiting to see if the fog drops back in or is lifted for good. I know from here that it comes & goes.

My Plan A is not perpetual but I will admit that I've really only been putting my heart into it since May. I've been reading here & figuring out what I myself need to do.
It's coming along, since now I'm changing to make me happy & not anyone else. I like what I've changed. I fully intend to make it permanent.

I sure hope he can manage no contact. I think that will really help you get toward recovery. I'm encouraged that he is reading the stuff here.

If domestic support is important to him, I would concentrate on that. You can go ahead and make dinner, and if he isn't home on time, warm it up later.

Good job on keeping the house up!

Lost, I am sorry to say that you remind me of a person that is making excuses for behavior that just isn't making sense any longer....Plan A isn't perpetual...so, you really have only been doing it since May... your H is a WS. Period. There are no ifs or buts about that. He is a WS until he has ended any and all contact with the OW. This Plan A has been going on for almost a year since he promised NC last October. There is no arguing the math. It seems like your "plan" is a bit too dependent on his words and not his actions. There is nothing short of NC that should stop you from Plan B at this point..and I mean a NC letter, a commitment to MC and total 100% honesty and transparency. Absent those things...every single one of them being non-negotiable...you are running in quick sand.

Please look at your own signature line...

DDay 10-26-06, Promised NC never happened

I will answer the original question (haven't had time to read the whole thread and keep up).

Before I met my husband he had a short relationship with a woman who had a 6 month old baby boy. The father of the baby boy committed suicide. I don't know too many details about it other than that. But I do remember my husband had a photo of this woman (wearing a big flannel un-sexy nightgown) and him telling me about the baby's father committing suicide. Also he implied that they broke up because of the suicide so I assumed that my husband was the OM in the situation.

(Well, wouldn't you know, one of my BIL's married the sister of this woman and whenever we would visit them my WH and my new SIL would make a point to step outside or into another room to privately discuss this woman - what she's up to - whatever... This was a recurring problem with my WH throughout our marriage - his thinking he was entitled to keep photos of women from his past, keep updated about them, even to keep in touch with them...)

I think part of my WH's reason for being a serial adulterer (there are many other factors from his childhood/family) is that in order to deal with this man committing suicide my WH adopted an attitude that jealousy is the only real problem with adultery - that people should be able to 'deal' with it (and it's not the adulterers fault if they won't) Maybe WH had a need to convince himself that what he and the woman did was OK, but how that betrayed man responded was not only 'wrong', but the ONLY wrong thing about what happened?

I do know that my WH seems ABSOLUTELY OBSESSED with pointing out to me that my responses to his adulteries were 'wrong', more wrong than what he did in the first place. I know this is typical of a WS but I do think my WH had this distorted thinking already before I met him, throughout our marriage (even if he wasn't currently involved in adultery), and even now several years after the latest OW dumped him. In fact as far as I know he still blames me for the OW dumping him because I 'didn't handle it right'...

Also, my WH seemed to go overboard with making fun of me for being 'jealous'. He and OW and his family apparently thought my being upset by his adulteries was hilaroius. And of course when there were times that I did react out of anger or hurt they loved to point fingers at me and comment about how 'crazy' I supposedly was...

Also, one of the OW that my WH was having an EA with had a brother who committed suicide over a woman. I remember my WH making some pretty rude and insensitive comments right in front of this woman and her husband about her brother committing suicide! His comments were followed by a long awkward silence. I think his attitude came from his trying to deal with his own guilt over the suicide he apparently contributed to.

There's a (flawed) sort of reasoning that ties a person to something they've committed. They become even more attached to the wrong committed out of guilt. Instead of dealing with the consequences of their choices they try to condemn the consequences and/or the victims of the consequences. After all, they believe it would have been all fun and games if it weren't for the spoil-sport victims revealing the damage done. So in order to avoid the guilt they play blame the victim and cling even more tenaciously to the wrong-doing that started it all. Now, more than ever, the immoral choice MUST be defended! The OP MUST be their 'soulmate', the inappropriate behavior MUST be acceptable AND continued/repeated... Because otherwise the suffering of the victims was all in vain. Nope - much easier for the avoider of responsibility to more deeply endorse the adultery/co-adulterer and condemn the victims instead.

An update of this weekend.

NC has finally been established. He told her in a phone call with me there. His whole attitude has changed.

We went to the football game Friday night. He sat with me the whole time except for short walks for his back, in my sight the whole time. The night was good.

Saturday & Sunday I had community service at a local state park. He was on call this weekend & so had to check the plant both days. Yesterday I sent him a text message about lunch & he brought me Whataburger & sat with me while I ate. He had eaten already because he had to wait on me for about 30 minutes. He stayed with me until they came back to pick us up for more work. We laughed & talked about future plans to spend time together. He gave me gloves to wear when he saw the blister on my hand from sweeping under picnic tables. When I got home, he was watching the race & as soon as it was over, he got up & we cooked supper together. It was great.

He has been more affectionate than he has been in a long time. And he hasn't changed his mind at any time like he did before. In fact, he even let me know, without angry words, that I was beginning to argue & he wouldn't argue with me. And, yeah, I was & didn't realize it so I stopped.

I did text him & asked "just want to know. do you think you love me or do you know you love me?" I got back "I love you!" I told him Thanks, I just needed to hear it.

So far things are going good. I'm praying it holds.

Another thing I want to add.

Since he told me that Thursday, he calls me & lets me know everything he is doing. Saturday & Sunday, he called to let me know he was on his way to the plant & when he thought he would be home & that he was going shopping for new work boots. He called me Friday to let me know what was going on & when he would be at the office to pick me up.

Just the week before, he didn't want me to know what he was doing or where he was.

Keep up the changes you have been making. That is essential. After going through all this, you both deserve a much better marriage. I'm very hopeful.

Thanks, believer! I'm hopeful also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I feel we have reached that turning point that everyone says you reach & recovery starts. It's still going to be a little rough. I don't expect it to be peaches & cream right away. I want to be sure she is out of our lives.

But his attitude change makes me very hopeful for us. He told me he had never asked her to wait for him until the house sold & when he looked me in the eye & said it, I believed him. That was just before he told me he realized how much I loved him. I asked him what it was that made him realize that. He said it was my answers to the things that were said here & what I said about him. I feel that something here touched his heart & made the fog lift, hopefully for good.

I never wanted a divorce & prayed that it would never get that far. Now I want to work on getting us out of the financial sitch we're in & get back on our feet. And if the job in Ft. Worth ever comes through, I'll still look forward to moving away to start over where no one knows about all this.

Yeah, I'm keeping up the changes. I like the changes. I've done well enough that Saturday night, when I was soooo tired from community service that I fell asleep before he got home, he told me to leave the dishes in the sink & I could do them in the morning before I left for my last day of CS. I asked if he would be upset & he said no, because I was so tired & if I did them in the morning. I promised I would & I did. I thanked him for that. That is something we have always done is thank each other for the things we do for each other, except during this mess. Well, I kept it up, he didn't very much. He has started back. My best friend in high school told us one time how nice it was to hear spouses thank each other for things, she & her H never did. I was surprised because I thought everyone did that & we never thought much about it, just did it. Now it's a comforting thing to think about, since it's one more sign that my H is coming out of the fog & back to me.

You can try to figure out what needs the OW was meeting and start meeting those needs yourself. That will do a long way toward affair proofing your marriage. Will he fill out the emotional need questionnaire?

I'm not sure if he will or not. We haven't discussed that yet. I did leave my copy of SAA on his dresser with his stuff. I'm not sure if he is reading it but it's there for him to read. He may read it when I'm not around, he's done that before.

As for the EN's. I'm working on those. I'm going back over conversations we've had since D-Day, I kept a journal, & looking for things he said she did for him that he repeated more than once. Like the house, he has asked me why I didn't make that change sooner. I just told him, I didn't really understand how important that was to you, I thought you loved me anyway. I told him that now I've had things explained a different way, I understand what he's been trying to tell me better.

To be honest, I really think the only need I didn't meet was the house. That has been something that has come up all 24 years we've been married. And when she started coming on to him, which she had been doing very subtly for 3 years & then really strong in September when she caught her H for the third time with the same OW, the flattery was overwhelming. I'd always let him know how much I appreciated him & told him I loved him. But she really came on strong, according to his co-workers. And he had just turned 45 last June & was feeling that middle-age crazy, soon-to-be empty nest, I'm not where I wanted to be at this age, thing. Which I understand is not strictly a male thing. He'd also stopped taking his prozac, which he has now resumed.

Keep your fingers crossed. I know I am. Things have been looking up all weekend. Which has lasted longer than any time before.

Sounds like you are doing well. Keep it up. Dr. Harley says you can even ask the WS what was so attractive about the OW. YIKES!!! That would be hard for me. But it is a good thing to know.

believer,



I have, LOL!! And all he could tell me was what he didn't like about her. Her eyes are brown & he likes my green eyes. He says I have pretty feet & he's told her that her feet are ugly, short & stumpy toes so she always hid them from him or wore shoes. He says my skin is much softer & she doesn't have soft skin, bruises too easily & doesn't really take care of her skin. He says I'm prettier than she is & I'm younger. He says he likes that I try to look nice, i.e. polish my toes & fingers to match, wear makeup, keep my hair cut in a cute style, wear cute clothes. He says he liked the way I took care of him, fixed his lunch, things like that, which I've been allowed to start doing again. He says he likes that I get up with him every morning & walk him to the door when he leaves for work.

Believe me, that is one of the first things I asked about when I found out who she was. At first it was, she makes me feel good about myself, she caresses me, she touches me all the time, she makes me laugh, so on & so on ad nauseum. He doesn't say that anymore.

But one of his things with me was that I didn't have a sense of humor. Wasn't that, just that things from childhood hanging on made me feel sometimes like I was being made fun of & I didn't like it. I've let go of that stuff now & it has no affect on me anymore.

So I asked without finding out if it was a good idea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There is an excellent book called "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura Sclessinger. See if you can read it. It's about how to treat a husband. It's great!

By the way, how has he been at meeting your emotional needs throughout the marriage?

I can't believe some of the responses to this post.

Some of the same posters who claim that they share no responsibility for their own spouse's affair, no matter how sh*tty a spouse they were, are claiming that your WH is partly responsible for his OW's H's suicide. Interesting way for them to twist logic.

Let's see.

From their logic, no matter how crappy a spouse they were, their WS made a unilateral decision to have an affair, and thus should be required to hold 100% of the responsibility for that affair.

However, your WH's OW's H commits suicide, makes a unilateral decision to take his own life, and yet your H is somehow to blame for it, nevermind that the OW's H made the choice all by himself to end his life, and thus should be 100% responsible for taking his own life. Nobody held a gun to his head and MADE him do it. He had other options short of suicide to express his displeasure in his wife's affair, counseling, talking to a minister, seeing a psychiatrist, talking to a friend, divorcing her, etc, etc, etc.

MY point of view has been that I am partly responsible for my wife's affair, because, had I treated her properly, she would not have made the choice to have an affair. Yes, the choice was hers, but it is a choice that would not have been made had I treated her better.

Soooooo, I believe that, yes, your husband and his OW are partly responsible for her H's suicide. It is a choice that he made to kill himself, his choice alone, but it is a choice he likely would not have made had he not been distraught over the affair. Thus, they are partly to blame for his tragic ending.

So, if the affair "drove" him to commit suicide, it would also follow that the OW's H "drove" her to have the affair in the first place.

Blame, blame, blame...

This is the very reason why Dr.Harley advises AGAINST playing the blame game....

Beowulf

Suicide-

An interesting thread-first to grab my attention in at least a year.

actually first time I have been here in a year...but

Husband- suicide bereavement counsellor-sod that guilt off. most who commit suicide have a trigger event-one could break a plate and the plan is set in motion-no person is responsible other then the person who commits the act-odd how we want to give power to others.

Other woman -no doubts needs support aswell-obviously she has seen a lot, and no doubt carries a lot of guilt herself

My advice there would be- both suicide bereavement counselling....just not together

Other woman might also achieve some growth through domestic violence counselling.

Wifey-there are a number of issues at play here-talk to a counsellor yourself and take care.

Peace

Max

You noticed that too?


Yes, bad logic, I agree. But logic flies out the window when people are talking and thinking about how they have been hurt by infidelity.

Beowulf, I hope you come to the point where you see that although you may not have been the world's greatest H, your FWW's A was a reflection of her, not you.

madmax's point, with which I totally agree:


Suicide is the most selfish thing that a person can do. It is often a last-ditch attempt to gain power over others, a way of having the last word. Think of it as the ultimate passive/aggressive move. It is absolutely as selfish as having an affair, moreso in some cases, when you consider the finality of death. I think that it is asinine (and illogical) to blame another individual when a suicide occurs. People who commit suicide have essential weaknesses that others don't, just as some people have affairs due to their weaknesses and some don't.

You either choose to fix yourself or you don't. The suicide chooses not to fix his weaknesses, but to give in to them.... the choice is not made for him.

PK

pk,



On this I totally agree with you. Her H had controlled her all the 29 years they were married. He used suicide threats to control her. I told my WH that it was his last act of control over her, to make her live with & suffer over his suicide. Why? Because he waited until she was directly in front of him before he pulled the trigger. They were in separate cars, having had lunch together & she told him she would never come back to him, she was going through with the D. She stood up to him for the first time ever & he didn't like it. At that point in time, there was NC between my WH & OW. Contact resumed after the suicide.

Yes, my WH is responsible for his part in the A. When she came after him, he didn't have to say yes. Yes, I accept responsibility for my part in his decision to have the A. Looking back, I see the mistakes I made, the things I didn't understand when he tried to tell me, the things I did that made me not a very good wife. I did things to try to make up for my shortcomings instead of meeting his needs. Here I've learned how to meet those needs & make a better life for both of us.

He has always met pretty much all but one of my EN's. That being the one of recreational companionship. We haven't always spent as much time together as I would have liked. I feel like that will change now. Other than that, he has always taken care of me in all other ways. He has been a good father & took care of our girls whenever I was sick or couldn't. He took care of me when I was sick. All other areas of our life, as far as I'm concerned, were great to me. Except for the fighting, which was almost 99% about my housekeeping skills. We're working on that as well.

But the reason I started this thread was for others to share their similar stories so my WH could see that others had been in his shoes & knew how he felt. I think he finally saw that. Something written on this thread, by me or someone else, changed things for the better so far.

I'm praying it holds.

Believer,

I have seen that book & think I may have it at home. I will look because I wanted to read it.

The long road to recovery appears, so far, to have started. I know it won't be easy. But I came here for help & I got it. I didn't always like what was said, but I respected everyone's right to their own opinion, just as I have mine. But even the 2X4's helped, even if I didn't like what they said.

once again...you don't KNOW what happened all the 29 years of their marriage. you...or your H couldn't possibly have that information.

next... I will say that choosing to sleep with another persons H or W is a bit more selfish an at than taking your own life. The choice to commit adultery leads very sane and otherwise healthy people to contemplate suicide...it ruins families...it ruins lives. If you need sugarcoat your H's role in the death of another person, far be it for me to try and change your mind...but no one...not you...not the police and certainly not his HO wife knows the anguish that this man felt inside to drive him to this act. Control....a way of having the last word....please....the ultimate control is screwing your family over and then blaming others....in other words, typical WS behavior.

medc,



Once again, this information is not from her. It is from law enforcement officers who were called to their home & the Texas Ranger who investigated the possible contract with the hit man. And, JFYI, I have seen personally the way he treated her. We attended company functions that they also attended, since my WH & OW worked in the same plant & this company has family functions for their employees. I know for a fact that he treated her like she was too stupid to go potty by herself. He made comments in front of people she worked with about how stupid she was--Emotional & verbal abuse in my book. I had also seen bruises where he had hit her. Remember, this OW was someone I was friendly with & had talked to her about her situation before the A began. Being a legal secretary for a divorce lawyer, I gave her information on spousal abuse & what we charge for a D.


You have the right to your own opinion on that. I believe that suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do. Why? Because you can make things right with your family for an A, but if your dead you can't make things right with anybody, including God. Yes an A is selfish, but if recovery begins, the selfishness stops.



Again, you have a right to your own opinion. I was only saying that my WH was not 100% responsible for the decision of this W/BH to take his own life. I said before, he may not have meant to pull the trigger, he may have only been trying to get her to stop & call off the D. Law enforcement officers had been called to their home & had him taken to a hospital for a night or two in the Psych ward for just that very reason several times over the life of their marriage. He was also an alcoholic. He came to company functions with liquor on his breath.

I believe what the officers told me & the Ranger. They had no reason to lie to me, my WH or the Ranger about any of it. The security guards at my WH's plant were personal friends of both the OW & her H. They had no reason to lie to officers, the supervisors & managers of that plant.



If you have never seen anyone in this sitch (& I have seen close friends in this same sitch as well as clients), you can't understand the control factor. When your life is threatened, that is control. And like someone else said on this thread, even though the other person threatened suicide, she was afraid he would kill her or her daughter. The news is full of murder/suicides. It happens all too often in my state & not always because of an A.

When someone tells you something often enough, (you're ugly, you're stupid, no man in his right mind would want you & if he did it would only be for one thing & then only with a bag over your ugly face) you begin to believe it. I know, BTDT in high school, it scarred me for life. When the man who said that to me committed suicide, that's when I realized he was the one with the problem, not me. It took years to overcome all that, but I did, thanks to my WH. He is the only man I ever dated who told me I am beautiful & worthy of someone's love, outside of family. I have heard her H call her stupid in front of people. And he was also having an A at the time the A with my WH started. He admitted that to me in one of his phone calls.

I don't understand why you think the ultimate control is screwing your family over & blaming someone else. Because if you are the BS & you choose to D the WS, where is the control in that? If the BS chooses to fight for the marriage, where is the control in that? IMHO, those are choices controlled by no one but the one making them. They are not forced to make that choice. WS do have wild behavior, but that behavior leaves them when & if they decide to return to the M & end the A & it leads to recovery of the M.

But, all in all, I respect your right to your own opinion. IMHO, you sound kinda bitter about your sitch. Which is ok if you feel that way. Far be it from me to change your mind. Everyone has a right to their own feelings & opinions. Those are lessons I learned the hard way.

This is a place I feel safe coming to. A place where I can get things off my mind, vent if needed & cry when I want to. Everyone doesn't agree with the choices I make. I don't always agree with theirs. But that's not what this place is about. Each individual person here is encouraged to make their own decisions, based on their circumstances. Advice is given when needed & asked for.

Again, this is JMHO. No one on here has to agree with anything I've said. Everyone has their own reasons for what they believe & why.

The key word is "contemplate". There is a very long way between contemplation (or suicidal ideation) and the act. Many, many people have contemplated suicide, just as many people contemplate adultery. Few choose to go through with it. Both are inherently selfish acts committed by weak individuals.

I'm really not interested in comparing the pain of infidelity with death, whether by suicide, the death of a child, what have you. My H scoffs at the idea that what we have gone through is more painful than the death of of one of our children would be. His opinion does not invalidate another person's who may disagree.


I stand by what I said, medc. Personal experience and course work.

PK

Personally, I think you should tell your H that he's entitled to feel however he wants to feel about OWH's suicide. If he feels guilty, that's his choice. If he doesn't, then that's his choice as well.

But...if he chooses to let that be a factor in YOUR marital recovery, that's ALSO his choice...and a bad one.

He needs to grow the heck up. He screwed up. The only person he OWES anything to here is YOU. He doesn't owe OW anything, regardless of how he feels about her H's death. He needs to stop using her H's suicide as an EXCUSE to continue contact with her. PERIOD. That's what that boils down to...an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY CONTINUED CONTACT.

Great...he feels horrible about her H's death. He feels he contributed to it too. That's fine. I can see that point. But...time for him to tough up and face the responsibilities he's got to YOU. And to your marriage.

Sorry for being blunt. I've lived through having friends commit suicide. I had a kid who worked for me pull the trigger in front of me one night, 10 years ago. I still feel guilty...I should have known he was going to do that. BUT...that didn't give me ANY excuse not to take ownership of the rest of my life.

Same deal with your husband.

My sitch leaves nothing to be bitter about. And I never said he was 100% responible.

Owl...first and foremost... I am sorry you went through this...I too have witnessed this and it is a very hard thing. I am thankful it was on the job and not in my normal life.
I will say thought hat to equate the situations...if you had abused the child and he killed himself...IMHO, you would assume some of the burden of his choice. But otherwise it is just the "I should have known" type of thinking that follows any tragedy.
Again, I am sorry for what you went through.

Owl,



I have told him that. I have told him many times that he is entitled to his own feelings, but he is the one who chooses how he feels.




You're right! He does & he finally realized that. Someone said something here that got through the fog. He is now working with me to save our M. Everyone screws up but it's what you do after the screw-up that matters. If you continue, shame on you. If you learn from the mistake & don't repeat it, great, you're growing as a person. This is JMHO & no one has to agree with me.



I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I have had my IC tell me that sometimes you can't tell if someone will really do that or not. I've been told that if they talk about it alot or threaten it alot, they aren't serious. That the ones who are serious don't tell anyone, they just do it. And so far, I have seen it mostly happen that way. I can only imagine the pain & guilt you feel. But, even if you'd known he would really do it, you may not have been able to stop him. I'm glad you've been able to work through that, get on with your life & post on this board. You've shared your wisdom with me & I appreciate it.

These are excellent points, lostafter24years. All too often (F)WSs can become immersed in a fog of pitying themselves. It's simply an extension of the "me, me, me" mentality that got the FWS in trouble in the first place. While the suicide of the OW's H, and the flamboyant manner in which it was accomplished adds a complicating layer to your entire situation, the basic rules still apply - NC has to be in place for you to feel safe.

And I wouldn't be so quick to consider medc "bitter". In my experience, he identifies strongly with the underdog in a given situation. Do I think that he loses perspective sometimes because of this? Yes. But at other times, his observations are acute and worth noting.


There's really no hard and fast rules with suicide, but generally people who threaten suicide are not mentally stable, and are thus at greater risk of doing the deed. Therefore, it's best to take all threats seriously.

Take care.

PK

Although I am sure we could philosophically debate the role of Lost's WH in OWH's suicide till the end of time, is that what we should be doing here? Owl and others who have commented on your WH's use of the suicide as a means to justify his continued infidelity are right on the mark with their assessment. Lost, a continued focus on getting your WH to break the loop of guilt he is stuck in and stop using it to justify his continued contact with OW is key here. I hope that you know that is good sound advice and not to let opinions about fault finding in your sitch derail you from your goal...saving your marriage. I admire your courage, keep striving towards that goal.

I appreciate all the comments.



On this, everyone is 100% right. And I understand that & now so does my WH, so it seems. He still feels guilty but has realized, from comments here, her part in it also & sees that he has to move away from the OW. He has cut off contact with her. He accepts the blame for his part in all of this horrible mess (suicide & A) & is trying to make things right. For that I'm thankful. Since this thread was started mainly for him, it seems to have accomplished what I hoped it would.




I guess the only reason I considered medc bitter was the comment about ultimate control, which came across to me as a bit sarcastic, maybe not the intention of medc here so maybe just my perspective. I know that two people can see the same thing & neither one will have the same story about it.

medc,

I didn't mean to imply that you were the one who said my WH was 100% responsible. I only meant that I didn't want him to take 100% of the blame for someone else's choice. I'm sorry if I came across that way. You have given me some very good advice since I've been here & I'm grateful for all your posts to me.

ll,



I think I've finally reached that goal. I see the good advice & I promise not to let opinions derail me. I've come too far & fought too hard to stop now, just as he is starting to make things right. He admits it was a means of continued contact & now has ended it.

And my opinion about suicide being the most selfish thing is mine alone. If you're dead, how can you set things to right? But if you choose to live, you have a second chance to correct your mistakes & build a better life.

An A is the ultimate betrayal. The pain is very real. But to me the death of a loved one (child, S, etc.), be it by suicide, natural causes or accident, is a pain that no one ever completely recovers from. Because it leaves a hole in your life that can't be filled. You learn to live with it & deal with it, but it never goes away completely. And pretending that person didn't exist only causes more pain. I've seen this personally through the mother of a good friend of DD#1. Her son died just 4 months after his 16th birthday in a car accident, he fell asleep at the wheel. My DD#1 put down her driver's ed. book & refused to get her license until she was almost 18 because of that accident. On the important anniversary dates, my DD#2 (who is close to the mother) & I talk about her son to her. She says it helps tremendously.

Suicide is shrouded in myths.

obviousley in this instance there was a heap of prior behaviour in the male person that comitted suicide- I would certainly lean towards an underlying mental illness and definately domestic violence...

I do not believe that suicide is a selfish act or an act of weakness- suicide is to the person involved a viable option-TO STOP THE PAIN.

Some plans are so detailed it makes your mind boggle.

I also believe a lot of suicides can be avoided- by you , by us, by me, by others, by everyone.

Threats and even slight passing mentions of suicidal thoughts or intentions should be treated very seriously. As seriously as the symptoms of a cardiac arrest.

Learn the right questions to ask-and you could just save a life.


Peace

Max

Lost...no worries about me. I truly hope you and your H do well. While I may view these things differtly, I do know that we share the same goal and that is for you to have an intact and happy marriage.
I hope it works out.

max,

I think you're right about most of this. The only reason I think suicide is selfish is because they don't stop to think about anyone else or what they're doing to the people the leave behind. The guy who treated me so badly in high school, killed himself in his garage & his wife & 2 young daughters found him there. His daughters were both under the age of 10, so I can imagine what that image has done to them. He had threatened in school but not after he married, she came home & there he was, no warning. So she had no way of knowing or stopping it.

I also think threats of suicide as a means of control are selfish. I have had people I know try to leave their spouse & when they did, that spouse threatened suicide so they didn't leave. Suicidal spouse happy as a clam because they got what they wanted. This continued for years. One client, who finally quit giving in & left, divorced & the spouse harassed her for a while then remarried & went on with his life. He is still living quite happily with new wife.

I believe in taking the threats seriously, if that person has had severe depression or something catastrophic in their lives. But when it's used as a means of control & is repeated for that purpose, it's hard to take it seriously, kinda like the boy who cried wolf. You never know if it's a true problem or just a way to get you to do what they want. Puts me in mind of Fred G. Sanford on Sanford & Son (which probably shows my age), always faking a heart attack to get what he wanted.



Thanks medc.

I never hold hard feelings against someone for their opinion & view of things & I hope no one here holds any against me.

Yes, my ultimate goal is to save my marriage. I know she contacted him yesterday & he refused to answer back. She was having a really bad day. Who cares? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
I was proud he didn't return her text message or call her about it. And he didn't erase the message from his phone.

It's true that two people can hear the same thing or see the same thing & each will have heard it differently or have a different view, it's all in the perspective. I know I don't always come across as I intend to, so feedback from ya'll helps me with that. I know in dealing with my WH that I've said things meaning one thing & he heard it another. So repeating back what was said helps us to understand each other. Something I've learned has been a big problem with us, you know, the Mars & Venus thing. We both talk a different language, LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks everyone for the input. And the debate wasn't bad either!! Here's hugs to everyone for their help & prayers for continued help with this whole mess.

(((((everyone)))))

In my first paragraph-I don't deny maniputalive behaviour.


As for selfishness...we could argue/chat/type for hours-alas it won't change my *myth stance*..coz I know

You yourself mention === He had threatened in school but not after he married, she came home & there he was, no warning. So she had no way of knowing or stopping it.

Who listened at school???? because he obviously gave a clear indication of self harm.---

He had prior behaviour...big risk factor

I love the concept of each and everyone of us knowing CPR-
granted in most jobs these days.

Just a huge pity we dont think about suicide intervention.

Peace

Max

Yes, we could but we won't. Because you're entitled to your opinion & I'm not out to change your mind. Different people see things different ways.



I agree with you on that. But there are some cases where there is no prior threats or behavior, no warning given, no indication of depression. A woman I used to work with whose son committed suicide, told me he was home from college on the weekend before he died on Monday. He was his usual happy go lucky self, they had a good weekend, spent their usual time together. He never mentioned being depressed, didn't act as if anything was wrong & had never threatened suicide before. He went back to college on Sunday. Monday afternoon, she got the call from the campus police, he was gone, no note, no explanation. He'd hung himself. He was 19.

Stories like that sadden me. Because sometimes, I think that if someone knows, they can help & it can be stopped.

As far as my experience at school. No one believed him because he never acted serious. It always seemed to be a joke with him. He was just a mean guy who picked me out of the crowd as the one he wanted to pick on. My WH tells me it's because he was really attracted to me, but was afraid to ask me out or let anyone know he felt that way. I don't know. Just know his cruelty cost me many lonely nights of tears & self-esteem. I'm so glad someone saw that & pulled me out of that pit!! But at no time was I suicidal about it, never crossed my mind.

Perhaps "responsibility" isn't the right word then, in the case of the suicide. Better might be that having an affair with an unstable person's spouse is simply risky and s2pid, because they could use that as an excuse for being "pushed over the edge". There's always the risk, in such a case, that the OWH might be a murder suicide, rather than just a suicide.

You are absolutely 100% WRONG about who is responsible for the affair, however. How can the BS (however rotten a person they might be) be responsible for something they're not even aware of? The correct response by the WS who feels mistreated, before having an A, is 2 address the problems in the M. First with their spouse, then via counseling/coaching. And if those efforts fail, DV. It is always wrong 2 choose 2 have an affair. Always.


Absolutely correct. 100%.


Correct. This is why "responsibility" was probably not the right word. But you have 2 admit that by getting involved with his W, lost's WH was taking a big risk that they might all have wound up in the ground if the OWH's had decided 2 go postal before checking himself out.


I am 0% responsible for my W's choice 2 have an affair. And that's even recognizing that I may not have "treated her right", perhaps for many years prior 2 the start of her affair. I've told her this. She didn't like much hearing that I considered her responsible for the A. It's important, however, 2 make a clear distinction between the problems in the marriage and the choices 2 blow them off rather than address them, and instead complicate things by bringing an interloper in2 the pic2re.


Not really, in my view. But they (the WH and the OW) sure 2k one helluvan unnecessary risk.


No possible way.


But Harley also is firm about the WS being 100% responsible for having the A.

-ol' 2long

2long,

I don't personally see why so many other BS's get their undies in a wad at the fact that I have chosen to recognize my wife's EA for what it was, a symptom of a greater sickness in my marriage. I absolutely recognize the systemic element in her EA, and I fully accept that it would not have happened had I been an engaged husband. This is MY cross to bear - the fact that I abandoned my beautiful wife when she needed me most - and MY beliefs on the matter will not be changed.

My wife's dad was dying of cancer, and she begged me to quit traveling and stay home with her. She begged me! She cried for me, but my work was more important. It makes me sick to my stomach when I remember her telling me how badly she needed me and I told her, I'm sorry I can't be home, honey, CAN'T YOU FIND A FRIEND TO TALK TO?!!!!!!

F**k.

My wife never once, not even ONCE, said to me "I fell in love with OM because you were a bad, absent, abusive husband"....not once!! She took all the responsibility onto her own shoulders, to the point of making herself physically ill over what she had done and also over what she had almost done. She apologized profusely for her failings, and instead of accepting her numerous apologies, I kicked her when she was down. It had to stop.

Finding this website and reading SAA where instrumental in my healing and in saving my marriage. She would have NEVER had the EA if not for my behaviors. Her affair was to be an exit affair, leaving me, the monster, for someone who treated her better. And she would have been completely justified in doing so.

As for Harley being firm about the affair being 100% the WS's responsibility, that's not what it says in my copy of SAA.

Pg 75

How could I expect Jon to avoid burning his bridges after Sue had behaved so thoughtlessly? I offered him four reasons to try a plan that would give his marriage a chance to recover.

1. JOHN WAS PARTLY RESPOSIBLE FOR SUE'S AFFAIR. John knew, deep down inside, that his career choices had a great deal to do with Sue's affair. His work schedule prevented him from meeting her emotional needs, and it made her vulnerable to Greg's attention. Etc, etc, etc.

It goes on, but I'm not going to type it all out.

I think somebody mentioned in here that Harley doesn't really mean that, and that on his radio show he's indicated that he feels the WS is 100% responsible. I've never heard the radio show and don't intend to. But the above paragraph is what it says in MY book, and, after a lot of soul-searching I must admit I agree with it, in MY particular case. If Harley feels he was erroneous in his writings, then he should put out another edition, or post his new-found beliefs somewhere on this site. Otherwise one might think he is pandering to whomever is calling his show.

Beowulf

Yes Lost different people do see things different ways- and its not just my personal opinion here typing away.

And your right, it saddens me also - that if somebody knew- it could have been prevented..sadly not always though...

I do see manipulative behaviour- but I cannot assume in the first instance that's what it is- I would never be willing to take a chance and risk a life.

Like I wrote earlier...any threats of suicide, passing mutterings of.I wanna end it all...treat it as seriously as a cardiac arrest. Get them to support and let the professionals deal with it. Even if it is crying wolf- support can be offered there aswell.

Peace

Max

Well, my undies aren't knotted. I agree with this as stated: The A is a symptom of a problem marriage. But that's not saying the same thing as both parties are responsible for the WS' choice 2 have an A. The WS could have done a number of other things, even after the BS fails 2 respond. In the case of my W's LTA, she repeatedly came 2 me for "help" but once the A started, she chose not 2 tell me everything. I couldn't help, because I didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle (as Harley talks about in SAA, which I admit I haven't read in 5 years). My W wasn't just being private, she was being secretive - lying 2 me by omission. I am not responsible for her choice 2 be dishonest with me. How could her "efforts" 2 make our marriage better be sincere if she was misleading me as 2 what the problems really were. How could I have helped make things better?


Fair enough. When I look back on the conversations we had at the beginning of the LTA and again when it restarted 7 years ago, I realize that many of her complaints about my inattentiveness weren't even true. She claimed, for example, that when I was working on my PhD, I wouldn't help her with her Master's (she's dyslexic, and I type for her while she dictates). But the truth is that I spent nearly every night working on her reports and Thesis when I was often falling-down tired from my own long days.

At one point, after d-day, when I asked her "why didn't you just divorce me back in 1993, instead of having an affair?", she replied "because I didn't think you'd finish your PhD if I divorced you". So, she unilaterally decided she was doing me a favor by having the affair?? I could have started another family, if I'd wanted 2.

No, I'm not responsible for her choice 2 have an affair rather than 1) telling me all that was going on in her life so I could truly help (assuming I could have); 2) getting us both in2 counseling (she went for a while at her college, unbeknownst 2 me until 5 1/2 years ago) or; 3) divorce me! Divorce would have been painful, I'm sure, but I could have been completely healed from it for more than 10 years by now if I'd been given the consideration of being allowed 2 make my *own* choices about my marriage.

Don't get me wrong, though. I am healed now. It's been over 5 1/2 years since d-day. But my W is still recovering, as she really only went NC some time after Rat Meat got remarried 3 years ago.


Over the 12-yr span of my W's A, both my mom and her dad passed away. My dad passed away 2 years ago.


I was accused of putting my work ahead of my family. I think it's common for people 2 become workaholics as a matter of course - "taking care of our family" kind of thinking. When my W had an EA with a coworker 25 years ago - when nobody had used the term - I was working 3 hours away and going 2 school. I typically had a few hours/week 2 spend at home, and half THAT time I was preparing for an exam!

The closest thing 2 a similar conversation that I had with my W was 17 years ago, when she told me that she was becoming attracted 2 a colleague at her university. She asked me "What consti2tes an A, so far as you're concerned?" Considering the previous EA experience and how painful that was for me (and how headstrong my W was that it was her business and not mine at the time), I gave her the only answer that I could think of: "So long as there's no sex, it's not an affair."

I thought that would help her avoid an affair. But she twisted that around 2 mean that I didn't care about her feelings, and the PA quickly followed. Does that make any sense?


I'm sure that when I worked hard, my wife thought I didn't care about her enough 2 focus on our relationship. Was it true? I don't think so, though I certainly do recognize what a clueless, typical post-adolescent male I had become. That makes me responsible for my failings as a husband, but not for her decision 2 seek another relationship without my knowledge.

]

For me, it was books like "Passionate Marriage" (David Schnarch), "The Truth About Relationships" (Greg Baer), and most importantly "The Power of Now" (Ekhardt Tolle) that saved me so that I could work on saving our marriage. I read HNHN and SAA, but they weren't as useful 2 me or our marriage recovery, particularly since my W and I have been on such different pages in our recovery from her LTA for so long. She won't touch MB or any of their publications, even now.


Okay, if that's what you believe, I won't invalidate your thinking.

My W was planning 2 leave me a number of times for RM. She even offered 2 give up her family for him more than once, but he never 2k her up on the offer. It 2k my W a very long time 2 see his "true colors" - it would have never worked out with RM. But she needed 2 figure that out for herself. Another part of her responsibility - 2 herself (and then her family). My responsibility, after discovering the affair, was 2 let her figure it out for herself, while I straightened myself out and corrected my shortcomings in the marriage.


That may be the case. As I said, I haven't read it in over 5 years. If it is his position, I don't agree with it.

best,
-ol' 2long

I didn't realize I would open a thread that would cause so much debate.

Honest, I only wanted to know if anyone had ever had it happen in their sitch so I could show WH that he was not alone.

And, I'll admit, I've debated here as well. That's why this is such a great place to be. Everyone can have their own ideas & opinions & they have a place to share that with others, even if no one agrees on anything.

My WH hasn't taken his AD for about 3 days & it shows. He was in a bad mood yesterday & I refused to let him take it out on me. One comment he made was that our decision had been made. I told him that he may have made his decision but mine was to work this out. I reminded him that we were supposed to be working on treating each other better. Later, I went to kiss him & he told me he was still mad about that confrontation. I asked to discuss it with him & he finally told me not to worry about it, he would get over it. Unfortunately, this happens when he gets off his AD. I can imagine what a bear he is at work today.

Things may be entirely different when I get home. I'm sure that most of this is withdrawal so I'm trying to not re-act to it. But he hasn't told me he thinks he doesn't love me, which is encouraging. Since d-day, he would tell me that every time this mood happened.

Things are still looking up. But the road is long & full of potholes which makes for a very bumpy ride. At the end, recovery awaits. I try to keep my eye on that.

Okay. This is probably a dumb question & if this is the wrong place to post, let me know. I figured I'd post here since this thread deals with his establishing NC & deciding to work it out with me.

Last night, I went to kiss WH. All I've gotten in the last few months are short pecks. I asked when I would get a real kiss & he said when he felt like giving one. So, dummy me, asked if he hadn't felt like giving one since last Thursday, when he decided he wanted to save our marriage. He said no because he doesn't think he really cares for or wants to kiss like that ever again. I asked about SF. He said he doesn't really care for that either & don't think he really needs or wants to have SF anymore. I asked if he wasn't attracted to me that way & he said he doesn't think it's me, he thinks it's him. I said I hoped he wouldn't always feel that way. He threw this in my face, "Why not, you said you could live with it or without it, so why not?" I said I wanted to have SF with my husband, I don't really want to live that way for the rest of my life.

Yeah, I know, bop me with a 2X4. This is normal, right? I should expect this until withdrawal ends, right?

lost, you're not the one I'd like to bop with a 2x4. I think that you're showing an enormous amount of strength in dealing with a really [email]cr@p[/email] situation.

Some of your H's comments certainly sound like withdrawal speaking. And depression is a component of withdrawal, so the lack of interest in SF/kissing/touch is to be expected.

But there is an edge to his words, at least as you relay them, almost a desire to hurt you:


Or perhaps he is challenging you, to test the depth of your commitment to recovery. Of course he is really in no position to do so, being the transgressor, but he is probably not seeing things in that light. Some will call it foggy, I prefer the word self-absorbed.

It sounds like you are handling things very well. My opinion is that a BS faced with this situation has to decide on certain boundaries, ie, how long he/she will put up with a lack of affection from the FWS before deciding that this is no way to live. And of course, NC must be iron-clad in place so that withdrawal can occur, and hopefully lessen over time.

PK

pk,

I thought it may be withdrawal speaking. It's only the SF & kissing. As far as touch goes, he does that alot, especially at night in bed. He is taking his AD now because I put his meds in a daily box so he won't forget anything.

I know Dr. Harley says withdrawal can last at least 6 months. It's only been a week since NC was established so I know he hasn't had time to really get started on it. But before he came to his senses last week, SF didn't seem to be a problem for him. It's happened a few times since he came home in May.

I guess I'm wondering why he seems to suddenly feel that way when he has finally decided he loves me. Though I wonder if he loves me as a wife or more like a sister.

Just needed a little lift. He's affectionate in all other ways, & kisses are frequent just quick ones though. We are back to sleeping with some part of our bodies touching all night long. Guess I just needed someone to validate what I'm feeling about this today.


ps what is POS? Got all the others but not this one.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Have I posted this newest question in the right place?

I think this question should have been somewhere else.
Please let me know where & I will move it there.

I guess maybe he is testing to see if I overreact or get mad & start an argument. I think I did pretty good. I didn't get mad or cry or anything. Just looked at him & then went on with what I was doing before.

He has to remind me occasionally that I'm getting that tone in my voice. When he does, I back off. I'm trying so hard to stop the fighting.

Since last Thursday, he hasn't said anymore about feeling guilty about the suicide & that he feels he owes her because of it. I think that a comment made by someone saying she was also responsible because she knew her W/BH was mentally unstable, helped him understand his part in this whole awful mess.

Until this, I'd never known of anyone around here who had a hit man involved because of an A. At the time it happened it was almost surreal, almost like a bad dream. I hope I never go through that again.

I think it's time to buckle in, lost. Your roller coaster is not over with, and there will probably be a lot of things for a while that are pretty tough. And I wouldn't expect him to be very nice or accomodating, either.

From what I've been told, some of this kind of slogging through the mud is to be expected in a non-Plan B recovery. That often the WS feels very noble for making the very huge sacrifice of stopping their A and deigning to stay. They didn't have to jump very high or meet any conditions to get back in; in fact, they just sort of slunk over the door mantle and still have a foot out the door ... and they are expecting a parade and the key to the city for their monumental effort.

And the BS has to figure out how much they are willing to put up with. And may end up stuck in the mud, just accepting whatever the WS bothers to offer.

That's where we were for a very, very long time. Several months after the A was over, we were still slogging through mud and grayness .... sometimes kind of leaning towards recovery, sometimes not .... it wasn't fun. It wasn'te easy. I told myself it was better than the A, but it really wasn't what I wanted, either. And needs met???? I never even thought that was possible.

If I had been better at setting boundaries, deciding on my own expecations, doing my part better than just going along with whatever he'd give .... it might have been easier.

Buckle up and keep your cool. Keep Plan A'ing, but don't forget the message that it's possible for you two to have a great M, and that's what you want.

I don't use that particular acronym, but it's a favorite of some. Since profanity is verboten here, you won't find it in the list. Think scatalogical, ie, Piece Of...S

AmIok gave you some good advice. I would do some research on the concept of personal boundaries, since you cannot change your H's behavior, you can change only your reaction to it.


You must start to define what you will accept and what you will not - and be sure to clue your H in to your definitions. You will have to lead the way in recovery, lest you end up aimlessly circling the same territory, never making any headway. This is what will happen if you use your H's actions as a guide in recovery; he's not capable of leading you anywhere - yet. In time that may change.

You're posting things in the right place. If you want, you can always start a new thread that addresses the issue of boundaries, either here or in the Recovery section.

PK

AmIok,

I need the buckles & over the shoulder bars. This weekend sucked. And since I know OW sent him a text Monday, which he didn't answer, I feel like I'm back to square one. But the good thing is he didn't answer.




Yeah, he told me yesterday that he stayed with me because he had a commitment to me that he felt he should honor. That he loved me sometimes & that he was happy with me sometimes. Whatever!!




But things did get better, right? I guess I'm so impatient because I want things to get better now. I'm trying to curb that impatience but it's hard.

When we were talking yesterday, I told him that when he told me he had to make it work because he wanted to, I really believed him & thought he really knew what he wanted. He told me he did mean it at the time he said it. I don't want to keep pretending things are hunky-dory if they're not. I don't want him to be nice to me unless he wants to, not because he feels sorry for me or feels he has to. SF makes me feel like a hooker who doesn't get paid. He won't look at me, barely touches me & nothing else happens either. We talked about that. He has no interest in that & doesn't want that from me anymore. Says he can do without that for the rest of his life. I told him that's not what I want. That I want 100% of a good marriage with him.



In the beginning, how did you talk to yours about what you wanted & expected? How did you talk to him about what you wanted to do for recovery? Do I wait until withdrawal is over & discuss it or do I bring it up now? Do I wait until he is completely out of the fog, knows what he wants without changing his mind every day, all while Plan A'ing my behind parts off?





I'm still Plan A'ing. I won't stop that. And I do keep telling him we can have a better marriage than before, a great one. Yesterday he told me he doesn't know if that's what he wants. Thanks for the advice, AmIok. I appreciate your help with this. Listening to you gives me some hope.




pk,

Thanks!! I wasn't sure & now I get it, LOL!!





Do I do this now, before he's completely through withdrawal?

I hope it does change. I'm so ready for this to all be over & things to get better. I did tell him yesterday that I didn't like pretending everything was ok when it's not. That pretending didn't make it so & it wouldn't just go away if we acted like it didn't happen.

Sometimes I feel like I'm on a merry go round that keeps speeding up, I'm dizzy & I can't get off. But I know that if I don't hang on, I'll go flying & there's no safe place to land. Sounds pretty bad, huh?

Lost, you may get different responses to this question depending on the poster. Some people will cut a lot of slack for a wayward in withdrawal, and insist that you must continue to Plan A.

IMO, I think that the sooner you start defining your boundaries, the better off you will both be, and you can still be in Plan A. Boundaries are not lovebusters; they are not demands - they are agreements between two people. I see a lot of room for boundaries in your relationship.

For example, the first big boundary is NC of any kind if your H is to live with you. Without NC in place, there can be no movement forward, as your H will always be in withdrawal. Constant withdrawal is painful for both of you; therefore the boundary is helpful, it is not a burden to be borne by your H.

NC is not firmly in place if OW is texting your H. While your H's means of communication should all be open to you (cell phone, email, etc), they should also be closed tightly to OW. I would suggest a boundary of changing his cell # - effective immediately. While he may not have answered her text this time there is nothing but his will power to prevent him from doing so in the future. Plus, every time he hears from her it puts thoughts in his head that are affecting your relationship.

It needs to stop. You need to be firm on this; it's for both of you.

Another boundary would be MC; I believe you are in counseling at the moment?

I have reviewed some of your other posts, and I note a high degree of insecurity ("am I posting in the right place?", "not sure if this is where I should ask", etc.) This is not a criticism in any way, simply an observation. Boundaries will help with your insecurity. They will help you to define how you want to live, you will not be at the mercy of your H's ever changing feelings and moods.

Please think about getting that cell phone # changed. Set a boundary. Keep OW out.

PK

Thanks, pk.

I will sit down with him tonight & get things down between us.

Only problem with changing his cell is he now has to use his personal cell for work. They pay for it so he can't change the number. Only because customers & such that are not in plant every day have it & need it to contact him. I will tell him about making sure I have access to his voicemail.

Sometimes, I know he really loves me but this weekend, the "I don't know" came out again.

I will set boundaries & continue with my Plan A.

Thanks again!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

lost, this is a non-issue, and it sounds like an excuse your H might make - so that he can stay in contact w/OW. I am very, very sure that if your H were to explain to his employer exactly why he needs to change his cell # that it would be no problem. Do you think that his place of business wants him to be receiving texts/calls from this OW and all her problems and threats?

My H paid for an employee's cell phone for a while, so I am looking at things from an employer's perspective. Employers want their employees to be productive; they can't be productive if they are being harassed.


That is all well and good, but it is still access after the fact. You want to cut off any possibility of the OW being able to contact him. Trust me, every time he sees her # on a text it sets off a train of thought that is detrimental to your recovery. Every.single.time.

Make no mistake; you are fighting for your marriage. You don't go into a fight with one hand tied behind your back.

PK

I think you're right. This morning, after he left for work at 3:30 a.m., I got on the computer to get on here. When I punched up the history to go to MB, I found this "www.sexyhotmama@aol.com". I couldn't help myself. I called him & asked him. I told him not to lie to me. He finally told me it was supposed to be a website for OW, that she had some pics on there he wanted to see. I asked him why he wanted to see her when he should be only wanting to see me. I'm sure I LB'ed all over the place. The hurt was too much.

He has accused me of throwing away some kind of prayer/charm box that was hanging in his truck. He got this box while he was living somewhere else & we were having no contact. He says he bought it. I didn't but he don't believe me. He accused me of snooping. That he has no privacy on the computer because I have the passwords & he can't check on my stuff. I told him I gave him my passwords including the one for MB. His answer was only one time. I told him I don't change them. My passwords are all the same variation of one certain thing. I told him that also. I told him I wasn't snooping, that I saw this when I clicked on the addy line to get to MB.

I told him that I thought when he said he wanted to work things out with me that he meant he was through with her for good but that I was obviously wrong about that. He said he felt he was through with both of us. That he felt that maybe we should go our separate ways because it would never work. I told him I was trying to make it work & he said no you aren't because you're snooping.

He said what would your IC say about your invading my privacy. & he hung up. I sent him a text saying my IC would say its not invading your privacy if you have nothing to hide. I have nothing to hide. Then I told him what my passwords are & where I post on MB & my screen name.

I felt like I'd been stabbed through the heart when I saw that & he confirmed who it was. I want to tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. But I love him too much. I guess that's my biggest problem, I love him too much. I want this to work so bad. I do everything I can to not mention OW.

He told me that I'd probably find out her website, since he couldn't & leave her a nasty, dirty text message. I told him I wouldn't because I was through with her. He said I'd sent her one. I said yes but not nasty or dirty, just a question that I wanted a yes or no answer to & she wouldn't answer so I left it alone. But it wasn't nasty or dirty & the ones I'd sent in the past were telling her to get out of my life.

I know it's fog babble. I feel that if he didn't love me at all he would have left at the start of this & never came back, filed for D & we would be done by now. My BF from high school & my stepMIL both told me about half way through this nightmare that once I got to the point that he couldn't hurt me anymore, it would be over for me & I would file for D & be gone. My stepMIL said it took her 2 years before she got to that point & left my FIL for good. I'm still not there, he still has the power to hurt me.

Everytime I think it's gonna work, that he was sincere, something like this pops up & I feel played, hated, unloved, unwanted, uneverything. I feel he's using me to stay until he can afford a D. He said he wasn't.

I know Dr. H said that withdrawal starts over every time there is contact of any kind, info about OW, anything that brings her to mind. I feel powerless to stop it. I can't demand as it will turn into an AO & a LB.

I feel like I'm not only losing the battle but also the war. I guess I'm feeling a little sorry for myself today but that really hurt me.

I really thought he meant it this time. I thought he was finally being truthful with me. Is there a way for me to see through the fog to know if he's sincere?




Today, I feel like I have both hands & feet tied & I'm blindfolded. Is my love for him blinding me to the truth? I was so happy when he told me he wanted it to work. I've been telling people that we were working it out, that he finally realized he loved me & wanted to stay. Just a moment when the fog lifted, I guess.

And I realize his accusing me of lying is to cover for what he did yesterday.

As far as the charm box goes, I've been chosing to believe he was telling the truth about it, that he bought it & not OW. That he kept it because he bought it. I wonder now if OW gave it to him & that's why it's so important to him.

I've been reading the thread about success stories. I so hoped I would be able to add mine to those here. Today, I don't think so.

yes.

lost, I'm sorry for your pain. Your H is still very much a WH. Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing - it's that simple. He's not asking for privacy - privacy is closing the bathroom door. He's asking for secrecy in which to continue to conduct his illicit affair, and secrecy is an intimacy-killer. The fact that he is home now means very little, I'm afraid.

BTW, if your IC tells you that your H should be allowed privacy on the computer/cell phone, etc, you need to dump him/her now. That's just stupid.

I will tell you that I am not 100% ok with all MB guidelines regarding affairs. For one thing, I think that the term "fog" is highly overused, and often inaccurate. Your WH is not in a fog. He's being deliberately selfish and creepy and choosing to withold a significant part of his life from you. That isn't fog; it's reality. I think that more often it's the BS who's in a fog of denial.

FWIW, I think that you're coming out of the fog, even as we speak. You're starting to realize that your H is not on board with recovery. He's got his own plan, and it's called "I'm not having an A as long as I'm not having sex w/OW" Doesn't matter if his continued contact w/OW is hurtful and keep him in a constant, unpleasant to live with state of withdrawal, doesn't matter if his actions are the death-knell for your relationship. He's all about himself at the moment.

Again, not fog. Reality.

Your WH is continuing his A, and you have to decide if you want to remain in a relationship with someone who is deliberately choosing someone else. My advice to you would be to call the Harleys. See if they can help.

In the meantime, I would consult a lawyer and get your financials in order. It's all well and good to hope for the best as long as you prepare for the worst.

I am not an advocate of a BS staying in a relationship when the WS is eating cake while straddling the fence. I think that is much too demoralizing.

PK

Call it love, call it hope, call it denial. But the point is that you are dealing with a WH, not a FWH. The difference is huge. You simply cannot begin recovery with a wayward.

PK

pk,

Thanks.




I realize that he is still a WH until I know we are fully in recovery or recovered. He hasn't gotten to FWH yet.





I feel the same way. I've never asked for privacy for cell phone or computer. Once when he asked to look at my phone, I gave it to him & he threw it against the wall. All because I'd gotten into his vm & found a message from OW.

I'm not hiding anything. I will & have freely given him my login info & passwords to anything he wanted.





My IC has never told me that. In fact, she believes he should be open & honest with me if he wants to stay married to me. He throws IC in my face when he thinks I'll admit to him she agrees with him. And I've admitted that I didn't always do what she thinks I should do. Same with advice here. I'm human & I'm guilty of not always doing what I know I should because of hurt.







I think you may be right. I've told him before when we talked about it that he keeps making a choice, he just don't want to accept the choice he keeps making. He asked me once a couple of weeks ago why he would jump out of a relationship with a beautiful woman into a relationship with a woman who is not so beautiful. My answer was that he wasn't jumping out of one into another, that he was in two relationships & would be ending one, that leaving the beautiful woman should be a sign that he don't love the beautiful woman. The beautiful woman being me, his words.

I told him Sunday that we needed to stop pretending everything was going great if it wasn't. That pretending it was so didn't make it so. That I thought he really meant this time to make the effort.

I'm as bad as he is. When I get hurt, like this morning, I want to tell him it's over. To pack his sh*t & get out & never see or speak to me again. Then, later, when I calm down a little, especially after getting on MB, I don't want him to leave, I want him to stay & be honest & truthful with me & make a good life with me.

I'm ashamed to admit that I've even been hurt to the point of hitting him, something I know I shouldn't do but the alien takes over me & I can't seem to stop myself. I want to hurt him physically like he has hurt me emotionally. It's like all the hurt comes out of my hands. But I never succeed because I can never hurt him the way he has & continues to hurt me.

I've said this before. I wish I could hide in a cave until this is all over with & he has made a final choice one way or the other. Until this happened, I never understood people who talked about having pain this bad & this deep. I understand now about a pain so deep it can't be held in & it overflows when I least want it to.

Thanks, pk, for listening to me & for trying to help me. You've given me things to think about. I haven't had the talk with him about boundaries because we haven't been home together long enough to talk. Maybe this week sometime. Even though I fear it will be for nothing because he's made his mind up no matter what I do or say.

AmIok,

I hope my sitch works out for the best, like yours. I keep reminding myself that the road to the great marriage I want is long & rough. Like you, we seem to be leaning toward recovery one minute & away from it the next.

This is the longest & wildest roller coaster ride I've ever been on. And it would be kind of funny if it weren't my life & my heart on the line.

These are times when I wish God would give me a glimpse into the future to see if we make it.

I got a text message from him this afternoon. It said:

"Look. It was just curiosity thats all. I know u dont believe me and I dont expect u 2. Maybe u should listen 2 ur buddies on the computer."

He was talking about MB. And that message tells me he's not mad like he was this morning when I asked him about it. But at this very moment, I don't even care enough to kick him out or ask him to leave. I told him curiosity killed the cat & in this case it was killing me. And I told him I believe him, that it's the most truthful thing he's said to me lately. And that it looks like he's not ready to give her up & commit to me, so don't say it unless you really mean it.

I really don't want to hear anything from him until he's ready to become a FWH, commit to making our marriage work because he wants to & not because of some lame excuse of past commitment that was made. Guess that's a boundary I'm setting.

I'm gonna keep doing what I do to plan A the H, when he comes around & work on plan B'ing the WH. Sometimes that's hard to do.

Tell him that one of your "buddies" is a former wayward herself. So that when I say that as long as he keeps giving in to his "curiosity" he is prolonging withdrawal, I'm not just talking out of my @ss.


I confess that I never quite understood this concept. IMO, a person is wayward at all times until they cease all wayward behavior. Otherwise, you're just playing guessing games. "Is he WH or H today? Let me over-analyze" You don't need the aggravation. Keep it simple. Right now, until he's total NC, he's WH.


Very often looks have nothing to do with infidelity. It's really all about *him* - not you, not OW. She's not giving him good looks, she's giving him something that is harder to define; perhaps it is admiration, perhaps it is the feeling of being needed and strong. But it's a poor attempt at a compliment to you. A real compliment involves action not words. A real compliment would be acknowledging the validity of your feelings and stopping all contact w/OW.


Well you have something very serious to work on then, don't you? Because you can and should stop yourself. Doesn't matter that you're not the first person to react this way.

What have you done just for yourself lately? I'm talking about exercise, getting your nails done (if you're that type), getting a massage, something to relieve the enormous stress you're under.

PK

Good Morning, pk!!

I was on & just saw your post.




For myself, I have done my nails. Last night, I asked for 3 things he liked about me. He told me one was that I tried to make myself look good by getting a cute haircut & fixing it every day, by doing my nails, losing the weight & wearing cute clothes since then. When I do my nails, I usually paint them & my toes a neon color, so they match. I can't stand for them not to match. I tell people when they comment on my nails, that it's cheaper than prozac. Even on a gloomy winter day, bright nail polish can give me a real pick-me-up.

I know I need to do more but with school starting, this being my DD#2's last year, I have been real busy with Senior stuff. But I have taken some time for myself. On Father's day weekend, I went & stayed at the company campground in the camper, just me & the dogs. Just to get away & think & relax. I enjoyed it. I need to do it again.

I went to the local First Monday Trade's day this month with DD#1 & a friend. We stayed all day & had a great time. I'll admit my stress level is rising right now.

Part of it is work, my boss is in the hospital & may have cancer. Part of it is the sitch I'm in. Part of it is DD#2's school doings. I have learned to say no to some of that.




I will tell him this. In fact I will print out & show him this post. He says he has no one to talk to about any of this. I wish he would get on here & find someone he can talk to, like I did. I think it would help.

He says he doesn't want to do the MB thing for recovery. Because it can never work after all he's done. Because he likes to be in control & he thinks he won't be in control by following this plan. I didn't get into it with him last night about that, but I think this plan helps put you in control of your life, your marriage & in some ways, yourself.

My WH has issues that go farther back than me. His bio father is a WH, who has never been faithful to any of his 4 or 5 wives or any girlfriends. His 3rd wife is my stepMIL. Because she was married to him for 16 years, longer than any other woman. She has been a great source of comfort for me. My WH has convinced himself that he is the spittin' image of his F, that he is exactly like him. But his F has never considered a wife & kids to be a family. They are always possessions to him, something to make him look good. He is also cruel & stalked my stepMIL when she finally kicked him out for good. He still drives by her house, parks on the street & watches her place when he apparently gets lonely. She just ignores him since he doesn't call or come to the door or threaten her. She also has a RO against him.




I kinda felt like it was a back-handed compliment myself. He doesn't even know what she gave him, or he doesn't right now. I told him repeatedly that we could make a go of it, that we could recover & have a great marriage, if we both worked for it.

We talked a long time last night. He told me things he has never told me before. But I also realized that his feeling he didn't love me started when he lost a job that he really loved 10 years ago due to company closing. I told him last night that I don't know how he felt about that but that I could see how it affected him. That I'd never been through that so can't even imagine how devastating that is but that didn't mean I can't see how it has hurt him.

I think it's encouraging that he is talking to me. I hope he hears more of what I'm saying than I think he is. The depression right now is great. He's convinced himself that his kids hate & don't care about him. That's not true & they've told him that, but he's feeling so sorry for himself that he doesn't hear them. Yeah, he fell off in the pity pool & won't come out. But maybe something I told him got through.

We talked about how I've felt in the past. At one time in the last 10 years, I did feel that I wasn't in love with him. But I sat back, took a long hard look at my life, spent more time with him & remembered all the reasons I fell in love with him in the first place. I told him I fell in love with him again. I told him he could fall in love with me again, if he wanted to. Right now, he says he doesn't want to. He loves me but he doesn't think he wants to fall in love with me & thinks he can't. I don't think this man talking is the man I married. I think the man talking is the selfish one, the one who accepted her invitation to stray, the one who wants to do what he wants when he wants with no one to answer to or think about.

From others here, & from you, I know that that man will eventually go away. He told me again last night that I want everything to be fixed overnight. I told him that yeah, I'm impatient & want that but I also know that it won't happen that way. I said I know that it will take time but I was willing to learn to be patient & work for what I want.




This, pk, in on my list of New Year's resolutions. To work on controlling that anger & not letting it get physical. I have no excuses just let it get away from me. I am working on that. Once, when I got really mad at OW, I took a picture that he had of her, nailed it to a tree in the woods behind the house & emptied 9 rounds from my 9mm into it. Unfortunately, because of wind & my shaking with anger, I only got one round through her heart, the rest went all around her. But I felt better & I did it on the recommendation of my IC, a way to get the anger out, kill her figuratively & get her out of my mind. Plus, I wouldn't have to go to jail for it, LOL!! I'm learning to use my anger to clean my house. Instead of tearing up things or hitting something or him, I empty all the trash cans in the house & throw away things I don't need anymore. It's funny, but it helps. I can tear up trash all I want.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

While cruising around here today & reading posts, I started thinking about some things my WH & I talked about last night.

One thing he mentioned to me was that he thought part of his problem was he woke up at 45 years old & realized he wasn't where he planned to be at this age. I looked at him & said "that's what they call mid-life crisis." I said no more but today I got to thinking about it again.

My feelings on it are this:

When we grow up, we have dreams & plans about where we want our lives to go. Sometimes, they all come true. Sometime they don't & then we notice that our lives did not turn out like we planned them. I don't think it means we failed or settled for less. I think it means that our plans & dreams didn't fit what God had planned for us. That He leads our lives according to His plan & we don't even realize it. That we are going in the way He wants us to go & becoming the people he wants us to become.

My WH & I apparently differ on this thinking. My life was going the way I wanted. I had a 2 kids, a home, a husband that I thought truly loved me, a job I liked, & good friends to share good times with. I was looking forward to time for me & WH alone, now that the kids are grown. I am content with my life. I don't have to have things or toys or tons of money to be happy. My family, having enough to pay my bills & feed my family, a roof over my head is all I need.

Sometimes you make mistakes & are led down the wrong path, but if you learn from that mistake & correct your heading, you can become happier & content with what you have.

My WH is a material person. He sometimes values things more than people, things which I believe can be replaced when people can't. His priorities lie in having more "stuff" & more money. My priorities lie in doing things that don't cost money but are priceless just the same because they can't be bought.

Sometimes I think God brings 2 people together because they both have things to learn from each other. They balance each other out. Sometimes things go wrong, but if there is love, it can be set right again, better than before.

Just my thoughts.

pk,

I'd like to ask you some questions based on you being a FW. Somethings that might help me if I hear it from the other side of the coin.

I'm in a state of confusion because he is staying, not because he wants to, not because his heart is with me, but because it's the right thing to do & it looks good. He seems to think we can continue to live a half life from now until death do us part. He seems to think he will just wake up one day & his feelings will have changed & he will suddenly love me again. That we can just keep pretending everything is great until eventually it is. He doesn't think we need any help or need to do anything to put our marriage back on track.

Any thoughts?

Hi lost.


Well, he's going with the "fake it till you make it" school of thought. Sometimes that will work, but it would help if he would do some proactive things, rather than taking a passive role of waiting for a bolt out of the blue to turn him back into the kind of H you need.

My A was quite different than your H's, but the basic premise of NC is a good rule of thumb for anyone attempting to recover from an A. He has simply got to understand that he has to wipe her out of his life - completely. He must choose you.

I think that you are correct in that your H's A was a result of a mid-life crisis. Mind you, that does not excuse his actions, it merely puts them in context. With continued contact of any kind w/OW, he remains in crisis.

You say:

So you have discovered the meaning of the saying: "Who is rich? One who is content with his portion".

You were content with your portion. Your H was/is discontent, and it was his discontent that led him to seek fulfillment in the last place he should. Until he confronts his issues, he will likely always be searching for something to fill up the void.

One of the reasons that I posted to you is because you came across as facing a difficult situation with equanimity. I can't help but wonder if the fact that you are such a balanced person has influenced your H to lead a more unbalanced life, figuring that you will even things out. Often opposites do attract, as you noted - what we lack, we tend to look for in others. In some cases, what we couldn't get as children, we tend to seek in a partner.

PK

Hi, pk.



Yeah, but I just don't think it happens that way. He says he's done it plenty of times.

But maybe I should wait until he is further in withdrawal before getting too upset. Technically, NC has been since 9-11-07, the last text message he got from her. Of course that's not counting wanting to get on the website. I think I read somewhere here that things can start getting better after 3 weeks of NC.




I completely agree that it's no excuse. Some people don't believe in mid-life crises. I have talked to people who firmly believe in them. But middle-age crazy does explain a lot.




I grew up a true pk = preacher's kid. We never had a lot of money & emphasis was on family. I thought everyone lived that way. My parents were always content with their life, believing that God would never give them more than they could handle.




Thanks, pk. Sometimes I'm not sure how much equanimity I have. I've always been one to just go with the flow. You know, Sh*t happens & sometimes you step in it. But I'm always the one who says, "It'll be alright. It's not the end of the world. Let's see what we have to do to fix it, live with it, etc. My WH & my oldest DD both have the emergency personality. They both seem to go "Oh my gosh!! What do I do? This is not how it's supposed to turn out!" My youngest DD & I are the ones who say, "Oh well! Could've been worse. No sense getting upset over something you have no control over."

I've always wanted them both to be more easy-going rather than in emergency mode.

One thing that has caused a problem with us that I didn't realize at the time. When my WH lost his dream job in '96, he'd only been there 3 years. It was the job he thought he'd retire from. While talking the other night, I asked him if maybe losing that job was the catalyst that caused his feeling alone all the time & thinking he didn't love me. Because he keeps going back to 10 yrs ago. I tried to cheer him up then. Helped him study while they put him through AC/refrigeration school. Kept trying to lift his spirits. He mentioned to me that all the job changes since then are because he's trying to outrun his bad luck with jobs. He's been laid off 3 times since we've been married. I told him then that I don't know how he feels but I can see how affected he is by it.

I grew up with the philosophy that jobs can come & go. That maybe one is lost because there is another better opportunity out there. My dad was laid off from a job. A couple weeks later, his friends woke up & found out from the TV news that they didn't have a job to go to that day, the company had closed during the night. We were fortunate because my dad had already gone on to something else. So I was raised to not look at it as losing a dream job, but rather as God's way of getting us out of a situation that would eventually be worse. Some of the people who lost there job the same time my WH did, had never worked anywhere else, were almost to retirement & were in their late 40's to early 60's. No other job skills to fall back on. We were lucky, my WH had a really good skill & the company paid to train him in another skill. My WH has never left a job voluntarily that he didn't have another to go to. And when laid off, he always managed to find work to keep our heads above water. I've always been very proud of that.

So, I guess I've been trying to make the best of a bad situation while falling apart inside. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. And, unlike my WH, no one was there to hold me & be my cheerleader & tell me it would be alright. There have been times in the last year that I've felt more alone than I've ever felt in my entire life.

It sounds like you had a solid upbringing with a minimum of dysfunction. True? If so, take a moment to count your blessings.


Isn't it funny how our children turn out to resemble us emotionally? That's definitely the case in my house, where my daughter is like my H and my son, as my H calls him, is my testoster-clone. He looks like me and he acts like me.


As I said, this is part of the reason that I wanted to respond to you. I absolutely guarantee, whatever the outcome of your marriage, that *you* will be ok. You have the skill-set.


Do you have friends or family that you can confide in, so that you don't feel so alone? Do the people closest to you support your decision to recover your marriage?

PK

Hey, pk!!


Yes, I totally agree!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In our case, DD#1 looks like me, acts like him & DD#2 looks like him, acts like me, LOL.





One of the biggest supporters I had was my stepMIL & he has cut off contact with her by asking her not to talk to me. And she won't. I can talk to his mother & I do sometimes.


As far as my parents, no. I left home when I was 17 to marry my WH. It was the right choice for me. My parents have never completely accepted him. We had a good life growing up, but now that we're grown, my middle Brother & I see alot of favoritism toward the youngest from my parents. If we mention it, they get mad. The dysfunction happened after we grew up.

On the other hand, my youngest brother married a woman my parents hand picked for him. She can treat us any way she wants & they will never say anything to him about it. But let her get upset at my WH or me & they immediately come to me & tell me we have to get along with her & accept her the way she is.

My WH made an attempt to be friendly with her, going to her house & apologizing to her & trying to make things right. She treated him the same.

He says that if this M works out, he will never darken the door of my parents home as long as they are alive. I don't blame him & don't expect him to.

Since my DD#2 spilled the beans to my parents, they have not been truthful with me. I found out that they were talking to his aunt in Colorado at Thanksgiving, when we had problems with her, WH & I came home & had Thanksgiving just the two of us. She was calling them & updating them on our sitch. I can only imagine the lies she told because she can't tell the truth. She actually told Colorado CPS that I'd threatened to kill my kids so she could take my DD#2 away from me. They wouldn't because we live in Texas.

A few weeks ago, my WH went to the local dumpground to haul off the trash. The caretaker there has lived around here his whole life & this is a small town. He asked if my WH was my dad's SIL & when my WH said yes, he said "He don't care too much for you, does he? He was here griping about you the other day." Real christian way to act coming from a preacher, huh?

They have wanted me to divorce him since the day we married. They have given me no support to save my marriage since they found out. In fact, my mother asked me why I was trying to save it. We got into it, I told her she obviously didn't understand & would she walk out on my dad after 24 years. Her answer, I would seriously consider it. My reply, then you don't love him as much as I thought you did. I have not spoken to either of them since except when I had to. I have too much anger right now to deal with them while trying to save my marriage.

This weekend sucked. I feel unloved & unwanted & my WH just doesn't understand that. He continues to think that if we pretend it's ok, it will be. Sunday, I wrote him a letter giving my perspective of our marriage right now. He saw it, asked if I expected him to read it & I told him no, he could read it if he wanted to, didn't matter to me. I told him if he wanted to know how I feel, he could read it. As far as I know he hasn't read it.

He won't read SAA either because he says he doesn't believe in the MB plan for recovery & doesn't need any help. He can take care of this himself. Which is pretend it never happened, pretend everything is ok & he will wake up one morning, in love with me & everything will be great. Mind you, he has thought he hasn't loved me for 11 years now, so I don't see how it will change.

I did tell him this weekend that if he didn't want to give me a good life & marriage, he needed to say so because it's cruel for him to continue to let me hope for something I will never have.

Thanks for posting to me. Hearing from you helps. It encourages me to hang on. And you give me things to think about.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yesterday I'd been thinking about something my WH said the other night. About how losing that job had affected him & how at that time he thought he didn't love me anymore.

So last night I did something I don't do often enough. I told him what I wanted him to hear. Told him I wanted no answers or questions, just for him to listen to me & then I walked out of the room.

This is what I said:

"I want to say something to you & I want you to listen & hear me. And don't roll your eyes. I don't want any answers from you. I just want to say this & know you are listening.

You know how you felt when you found out the brewery was closing & when you lost that job. That's how I have felt for the last year about our marriage. You've told me you stopped loving me that day 11 years ago & I don't know why. But unlike your job, which you couldn't get back because the company didn't exist, I thought I could get my marriage back. I beginning to feel now that our marriage is like your job. I can't get it back."

I didn't cry, lose my temper, or anything. Just said what I had to say, got up off the couch & walked away. No trying to convince him of anything, no talking about what I said, & I asked no questions. I don't know if he will think about it or ignore me.

Someone here on one of my posts told me that even if I didn't think he was listening, to say it calmly anyway & walk off. He will hear & it will stay in his mind. Eventually, he will respond or bring it up & when he did, I needed to listen. We'll see. I hope he heard what I was saying.

The rest of the night, we went on as if I'd never said anything at all. I did ask him yesterday why he thought he would wake up one day & his feelings for me were changed back to loving me when he said he hadn't loved me for 11 years, since he lost his job. If they haven't changed in 11 years, why did he think they would now. I sent this in a text message. I didn't bring it up or talk about it or ask him about it last night. It was just something I wanted him to think about.

What gets me is he's told me I think of nobody but myself & care about only what I want & not what anyone else wants. If that's so, then why is he the one who wants freedom & no one to answer to?

Well he sounds like a compartmentalizer. He just shoves stuff aside if it's troublesome. I understand this, as it is a common tendency in a wayward spouse.


Was that the truth? Did it truly not matter to you? You want to be authentic here. You want to be truthful at all times, even if the truth hurts.


Think of how much further along you might be if you told him that you wanted him to read it!

Well it sounds like your parents have issues....like all parents. I had to laugh at this:


I have to tell you that it impresses me not at all when someone says they're a Christian. Being religious does not inoculate someone against bad behavior. A person might as well let me know that they are white, have red hair, or like to eat hot peppers. They're all equally pertinent to the content of a person's character - which is to say, not at all. I look at how a person speaks about other people, speaks to other people, and how a person treats other people, particularly those whom they perceive to be on a lower social rung than they are.

OK, end of philosophical discourse!


Well, in defense of your parents, it must have been very traumatic to have their teenage daughter leave home for marriage. I have a 19 year old and a 16 year old, and the thought of them marrying now is shocking and unpleasant. But your marriage has lasted long enough that I would think that your parents could have grown to accept it by now for the sake of all concerned - particularly their grandchildren.

My parents have also had their issues in dealing with their children. My step-mother's children haven't spoken to her in years, in part because of the favoritism she showed toward my sister, and her inappropriate support of my father (they have the classic co-dependant marriage, which can be both good and bad). My father and stepmother would like to believe the pleasant fiction that it's none of their doing, that it's all her kids' fault.

Right. Because that's exactly how relationships work (rolling my eyes).

My husband points out that there is a huge inequity in the way I am treated as compared to my aforementioned younger sister, for whom my parents make every conceivable allowance and hesitate to criticize for fear that she will cut them off. Sad to say, I can see that my husband's success has made me a bit of a target for my family. They have much more empathy for my sister who has flitted from one unsuccessful marriage/relationship to another and had a couple of children out of wedlock with a man who was only too happy to sign away his parental rights in exchange for not having to pay child support.

I have learned to file their behavior under the category of "Life is not fair"; the file in question is a circular file <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Ok, back to you:


I like this very much - except for walking out of the room. I think that is a poor tactic.


I think that the idea of speaking your mind quietly and calmly is great. But walking off is not. It gives the person to whom you are speaking the idea that his response to your remark is not worth hearing, that you have said all that needs to be said on the subject. Period!

That's not communication, which is a two way street, that's a proclamation. Even if your H has no response, you don't want to get up and leave. As the wayward spouse, he's already going to be struggling with feelings of inadequacy. You don't want to add to them by suggesting that you are not interested in his thoughts.


All the more reason to have rational communication and wait for his response, even if his response is nothing at all. Telling someone else what they think is not a good idea. In fact, it's often a great way to start an argument!

What has he said that makes you think that he wants freedom and no one to answer to? Because with that statement, you're verging on the territory where you're telling him what he's thinking (wanting).

Good Morning, pk!!



I think he did this before he was wayward. The one time he went to IC with me, he told her that his family handled all problems that way, just don't talk about it, don't think about it & it will all go away.




Yeah, at the time I meant it. I was getting things out of my head & on paper. I kinda hoped he would but wasn't real disappointed when he didn't. It's still on his dresser for him to read. Now I wish he would read it but I'm not sure I should force the issue.




Yepper, mine says the same thing. Bad thing is he's right. And it happens in his own family. His mother makes allowances for both his sisters & says she doesn't have to worry about him because he'll always be all right.

I'm not sure if it's success, but maybe in my family it's because he has stayed with me longer than they thought he would. As far as my WH is concerned, my father has bad-mouthed him to people who are merely aquaintances & to family who aren't that close. Stuff that didn't need to be said. My mother even blamed us for something my younger brother did with my dad's tractor. Which has also made me mad.




This is a good idea & I try to do that but don't always succeed. My WH is more upset about the way I get treated than the way his family treats him.



I see your point. I don't remember who recommended that here as a way of dealing with the WS. To let them know something without LB or AO & give them something to think about.

But I see now how that could affect us in a negative way. I didn't mean to make it sound like I wasn't interested in what he had to say. I just didn't want him to think he had to answer or talk about it if he didn't want to. Especially because when I told him I had something to say, he rolled his eyes, said "OK, what is it now." with that "Here we go again" tone of voice. That upset me but I didn't let it get to me at that moment. And I wish I had some way of reading his mind so I could see if anything I said yesterday had any impact on him at all.




He has told me I tell him what he thinks all the time. I've started saying, "Am I understanding that this is what you're saying to me" which helps, but I also emphasize that I'm not saying how he feels, I'm only repeating what he has said to me so I can understand what he means. And, I've noticed since he tells me that, he does the same thing to me. When I mention he's telling me how I feel, he says he's not doing that, that it's what I said to him.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




These are his words to me. He's been telling me this since last year, before DDay. That he thinks maybe he shouldn't be married, that he wants the freedom to go & do what he wants without having to ask or tell me about it. Mind you, I've never, in 24 years, demanded he tell me where he is every minute of the day. But the funny thing is, last year, after DDay, I offered him a 6 month separation, which he agreed to. But the stipulation was that I had the same freedom he did, to see who I wanted & do what I wanted without his knowledge or consent & the same went for him. He didn't like it. He wanted 6 months to do what he wanted while I waited for him at home.

Guess he can't see the forest for the trees! LOL!!

Today DD#1 & I went to a local trades day with a friend. We had a great time. WH went to West Texas with a friend to the friend's deer lease. I didn't have a problem with that. He won't be back until Monday.

I packed his bag, got his meds together & ready to go in his bag. I left him a note about his stuff, told him to have a good time & be careful & call me if he got a chance & I love him. I even set my cell phone to remind me & I called him to make sure he got up to get things together & leave on time.

He hasn't called but I somehow knew he wouldn't. Since all this started last year, he doesn't call me when he gets there or to let me know he's on his way home. This is all part of his need for freedom, according to him. He doesn't want to have to report to me everything he does every minute of the day. The last time he went fishing with a friend, I refused to call him & when he got home I didn't rush to his side. I just kept on doing my thing. He mentioned later that night that he wished I'd cooked supper. I told him I didn't because he wasn't home by 7 pm & he hadn't called to tell me he was on his way. I told him that I didn't see the need to cook for just myself as DD#2 was on a date with her BF. He acted disappointed but not my problem.

Before the mid-life crisis kicked in last year, he always called me when he got there, always let me know he was on his way home & would call to check on me while he was away. I miss that so very much. It made me feel loved & wanted. Now his not doing that makes me feel unloved & unwanted, like a responsibility he doesn't want anymore.

I don't want to be a responsibility. I want to be someone he wants to be with & loves.

I long for the day when he walks up to me, kisses me & says I love you & really means it. Sometimes, like tonight, I get down because I miss the H I used to have. The one who wanted to come home to me & cared whether I came home or not.

Yeah, he's staying because he says he made a commitment to me even if he doesn't want to stay. He staying because he feels responsible for me, because it's the right thing to do & it looks good to everyone. Yeah, he holds me at night while we sleep. But I get no other touching unless I touch first. He will hug me if I hug him first. And SF is completely out of the picture right now. He doesn't call to check on me if I'm late coming home.

I make sure I let him know where I am & what I'm doing. I tell him I love him but not as much as I used to because he gets annoyed sometimes.

I long for the day that he says I love you without me saying it first. I long for the day the confusion ends & I know something one way or another.

Tonight, I'm feeling sorry for myself & a little down, in spite of having a good day. I miss him. I miss the H who truly loved me & wanted me. I wish the WH would go away for good. I wish withdrawal didn't last so long. I'm feeling impatient again but I'm trying to replace it with patience. It's just so hard sometimes.

Ah, 24, your H is really letting his inner child out. And who wants to be married to a child?

It's as though he's deliberately punishing you by staying out of contact while he is away. A childish game of brinskmanship.

Good for you for letting him know why dinner wasn't on the table.

I can certainly understand your feeling down at this point, and I would start thinking about how long you are able to withstand living like this.

Not all marriages can be saved. If your H does not begin to share in recovery (and recovery is much, much more than simply being present) you may have to recover without him.

Start thinking about a deadline that you find acceptable. Start thinking about what it is that you are most afraid of. Start thinking about where you would like to be in 5 years time.

Take care.

PK

Hello, pk.

I get the feeling you're right about his inner child. I sometimes wonder if, in his messed up mind, he thinks that not telling me where he is or what he's doing or calling while he's away, is his way to prove that I'll never trust him again. To prove that I'm always gonna be a snoop.

Monday will be the start of the third full week of absolutely NC with OW. Or at least as far as I can tell or know. According to Dr. H, withdrawal feelings should start easing up a little.

But I've told WH I won't live in a marriage where we pretend everything is ok. Right now I have a time set in my head. When I reach that date (I won't say because he sometimes reads this thread), I will decide whether or not to stay in this marriage.

I don't think I'm really afraid of anything. I proved to myself & everyone else that I can make it without him emotionally & physically if not financially. If the house sells, that won't be a problem anymore.

I'm hoping I start seeing signs he wants to really work on it with me. Hopefully in the next two months. I let him go once, I can do it again, if he shows he's not going to put any effort into this marriage.

In five years, I'd like to be in a relationship with someone who wants to be my best friend, my lover & my husband. Someone who wants to spend time with me, to do things I've not been able to do because of kids & work. With the kids out of the house, I was looking forward to doing what I wanted without worrying about babysitters & such.

I was married at 17 & had my first baby at 18, a month & a half after our first anniversary. And during our first year of marriage, I was finishing high school. We've never had couple time like some do before they start families. I got pregnant 4 months after we got married. I was really looking forward to that. That's why we bought the camper, or I did anyway. He says he did also, so we could use it to go camping on the weekends together. Sometimes I wonder if maybe, in his sub-conscious mind, he bought it so he could get away from me to play. That's where I caught them together, in our camper at the Rec area on company property.

It's taken me time & effort to re-claim that camper as mine. To wipe out all traces of her. I've done it & have enjoyed the few times I've spent in it since he came home.

Recovery for me is possible without him. I just hope it doesn't come to that. I still love him. That feeling hasn't died yet. I know it will eventually if he doesn't try.

So glad to hear from you. You take care also.

lost

Last night, I cooked supper & had it almost ready when WH got home from his trip.

We talked some about our R. He says he thought everything was going alright. I told him that I didn't want a marriage that had no SF ever. He said "you didn't care much about it before so why now?" I had some medical problems & I got them taken care of. He says he doesn't care for SF anymore, that SF got him into this mess so he just doesn't care if he ever has it anymore. I told him I wouldn't live in that kind of marriage until I died. I told him that my love for him would eventually die if he didn't do anything to keep it going.

Right now he doesn't understand why I suddenly need SF & affection. On DDay, I had had an appt. with my ob/gyn for a month. My appt. was for November & I found out about A in October. My appt. was for those specific problems & I got them taken care of. It wasn't that I didn't care about it. I had realized that it was becoming a problem & I wanted to fix it. He doesn't remember that now.

I've gone back & read about withdrawal. That these feelings are normal, but it still hurts. I keep reminding myself that it will all work out, that once withdrawal is past he will want me again.

I told him I feel so alone & he told me he has felt that way for a long time. We talked about him not loving me since he lost his job in '99. He says it's nothing I did but he don't know why.

He told me he wanted to be able to do what he wanted when he wanted. In some cases I don't mind. But I want to spend more time with him & he doesn't want that, at least not right now.

I don't know the words to get across to him what I want him to know. I don't know how to say it so he understands. We have some problems he refers to that he says is too late to fix. I hear his side but he won't listen to mine. Mars & Venus, I guess. Different languages & neither of us understand the other.

One thing I've noticed is we talk better on the phone than face to face. He seems to listen more & hear what I say. I don't tend to get as emotional on the phone. Maybe I need to talk on the phone to him more often. Maybe that is our way of communicating right now that works.

Any thoughts???

Update.

Yesterday, I stopped by the house before I went to the plasma center to switch vehicles. It was pleasant & we talked about going camping this weekend.

As I was leaving, he kissed me & told me goodbye & be careful. I told him I would & I'd be back as soon as I could. As I walked off, I heard him say, kinda under his breath, I love you. I went back & asked what he said. He looked embarrassed & said he didn't say anything. I smiled at him & said I love you, too, kissed him again & left.

First time since last year that he's said it without me saying it first. I had printed some things off MB that pertained to recovery & what WS & BS had to do. I put a note on it asking him to please read it. He did while I was gone.

When I got home, I didn't question him about it or ask if he'd read it. I noticed that he didn't throw it away either, which he does if it upsets him & he don't want to see it again.

Baby steps, baby steps. Patience is the order of the day & something I struggle with minute by minute. I have to keep reminding myself not to get in a hurry & expect too much too soon.

As is said before here, time will tell & heal all.

I think it takes a while .... lots of ups and downs for a while.

What are the chances of you guys getting into some MC? Harleys would be great, but expensive. Maybe you can find an MC near you, covered by insurance, who follows the Harley concepts? Make some calls and do some interviews and see what you can find. I think your H may respond better to learning some of this stuff if it came from anyone besides you.

JMHO.

-AmI.

Hello AmIok, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Glad to hear from you. Yeah, Melodylane told me about an MC near me who is familiar with MB principles. I haven't checked to see if they are covered by insurance because I'm not 100% sure which ones they are.

If I suggest counseling, he will reject it out of hand. But since his mother is aware of the situation (& since he thinks she knows him better than he knows himself), if I talk to her about it, she can encourage him to go to counseling & he might just go for it. If I ask him to go, he thinks I'm telling him how he feels & how he should feel & that he don't need help, he can do it on his own. My MIL has already mentioned to me that he needs counseling. But I know that if the suggestion comes from me, he will refuse.



Funny thing about that is if I copy stuff for him to read from here, he does & some of it makes him stop & think. And I make sure that what I give him is not anything I've posted about but others have.

Right now my MIL is my biggest ally(sp?). For some reason, no matter what problems they have, he will listen to her when he won't listen to anyone else. And she wants to help because she believe he loves me, he is just being too hard on himself.

I think he needs to deal with issues about losing that job. That's when he started thinking he didn't love me & it had nothing to do with me. He's told me he keeps changing jobs to try to outrun his job bad luck. So I think talking to someone would really help, but the suggestion can't come from me.

We'll see. He's taking baby steps & so am I. I'm just impatient & want it all over right now. I've told him what I will & will not live with. I've laid down my boundaries. Now it's up to him to see if he respects them & continues to work on things.

You remind me so much of myself.

Gotta tell you how many DJ's there are in this paragraph-- and the only reason I recognize them is because I used to (and still do, to some extent) think and say the same things, and have been working hard on seeing them and correcting them in myself.

First, you are assuming that he won't want to do something (counseling) that you want to do, so in order to "make" him do it, you are planning on manipulating and going around him, to his mom. Sounds a little icky when put that way, huh? Is that really the kind of relationship you want to build, since right now you are working on building a new M?

What about trying something new?

"Babe, I'm really glad that we've decided to make this M work, and now I want it to be really great. I have found someone who can help us figure out how to get the love and fun back in our M. I'd love it if you went to talk to them with me. I have an appointment on Wednesday at 3. It's covered by our insurance, so there isn't much cost, and I think it's worth it for us to find a way to make this marraige really great again."

Straight forward, honest, leaves his decision to him, keeps your decision yours, no manipulation ....



The other thing I saw in your post was all the things you think he has to deal with. Lots of DJ's in that, too.

And as far as losing love for someone -- a major piece of the Harley concept is that there are specific strategies that create love. He says don't go back and re-hash all the old stuff, just builds resentment. Instead, work on building love between you, moving forward that way. So quit buying in to the whole "I lost my job, and that's what made me quit loving you." Doesn't matter -- what does matter is how to build that love back. If he decides later to work on other issues in IC, then that would be a great decision that you could support. But in the meantime, don't let it hold you back from building somehting good for the future.


-AmI.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Hmmmmm! Never thought of it that way but I see what you're saying. I guess I think that way because every time I mention going to IC, he makes a smart aleck remark about it but then throws it in my face if he thinks the IC will side with him. He went one time with me but thought she (being a woman) would only see my side of it. He didn't give her a chance & he didn't want to talk about our M, just his problems with my family.

He went to an IC one time, a man. He says he told him his A problems & the guy just told him he was really in a pickle. But over about a month's time, what was really said came out. And it was not what he wanted to hear & the blame was put on me for all his problems because the IC only heard one side of the story.

I've tried to be really honest with mine about my WH & myself & I would tell her things that I realized about my WH that weren't good. But she never blamed him for all my problems, only the A & his having one. She told me we shared equal blame for the M not being right for so long.

But since you put it that way, you're right. I just didn't see it.




I agree with you on this also. I know he has issues that aren't about me. I try to stay away from that. He's still in that stage of "I must love you because I'm still here." I try not to answer that. I've told him I want us to build a better marriage than we ever had & not go back to the old way. He don't think we can but I keep telling him it's possible. I'd just as soon not hear how he hasn't loved me since '99. I just want to hear that he loves me now.

The little I love you yesterday & going camping together this weekend is a start. Well, I guess the start came when he started sleeping in bed with me & holding me, which he hadn't done for several months.

I keep telling myself baby steps. I do remind him of good times we've had in the past & how much fun we used to have. I think those are good things to bring up & they remind me as well as him that our M was not all bad. Now if I could just get him to unpack his clothes that are still in the camper!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

One baby step forward, one giant step backward.

I did ask WH about MC. He didn't say yes or no just I don't know when I asked if he would go if I found someone he was comfortable with.

He was pissy when I got home yesterday. We ended up talking about us because of something he said & I don't really remember what it was.

He told me he has a time limit in his head & that if I meet that limit & go beyond it, he will assume that I've truly changed my housekeeping habits & he'll see then if it's too late for the changes. He didn't even remember telling me he loved me yesterday, said he must have said it because I said it first. He tells me it's too late, that I should have changed 23 years ago. That for 23 years he's been giving his all to me & I've been living here like I'm the only one & didn't care about anyone else. Just knowing how he's been in the past, 5 or 10 years from now, he'll say "well, you've been doing a good job with keeping the house clean, so I guess I can say you've really changed & I think we can make this marriage work so I'll start doing more." Ain't happenin'!!! I won't wait that long.

I'm beginning to relate the the Alan Jackson song, "Someday". I'm beginning to believe that it's too late, he sees nothing wrong with anything he does & everything wrong with me. But if I say I'm taking all the blame for the state our marriage is in, he says he's also to blame but he doesn't see anything he needs to change.

We discussed his changing his attitude toward me when he's mad at someone else. He said he probably wouldn't because that's the way he is & he doesn't see anything wrong with it. I asked about his getting mad at me & taking out on me the problems he has when working on the vehicles. He said he doubted it & I just shouldn't come out there while he's doing that. I reminded him that when I don't come out, he comes in yelling at me to get up & help him & can't I see he needs help? Oh Well, was his reply.

He said he doesn't see any faults but that he probably hasn't been a perfect husband. He said he's gonna continue to do what he wants when he wants & I can't stop him. So what about what I want when I want, I asked. Too bad! You can if you want but I don't want to hear about it.

Fog babble. He said that he will never build a house with me if our house sells because he knows I won't take care of it. He said later that he didn't say that, he said it would be a while before we built a house. He says he's not buying me a new car because I don't take care of them & wreck them. We got into a discussion about the wreck then.

He told me what he thought I'd been doing wrong to cause the wreck, speeding or following too close. I told him yes, I was speeding & following too close. He asked if I believed that & I said it's whatever you believe that matters so I'll say whatever you want to hear. He said he wanted the truth & I told him I'd told him the truth & he didn't believe me so I figured he'd believe a lie instead.

I can't win. After we went in the house, we talked some more & I asked if he cared enough about me to want me to have what I deserved, someone who truly cared about me. Yes & I asked even if that means walking out of my life. No answer there. He keeps telling me he wants freedom. He had it.

Oh! He also told me that he hates my parents so much that anything I do that reminds him of them, makes him hate me right then. I don't try to be like my parents & I told him that I didn't need my parents approval because I didn't marry to please them, I married to please me. He said he wanted their approval.

We talked about what we thought love meant & what we thought marriage meant. Thankfully, he doesn't think marriage means we share a house, name & kids but have separate lives. But he doesn't really know what marriage is really supposed to be. Same with love.

He told me later that I didn't do anything to try to love him. I asked what he meant & he said I didn't do anything to show I love him. I told him I do as much as you'll let me, I try to be affectionate & you won't let me. You pop off about me sitting on the other couch & say that says I don't want to be there with you, but when I try to sit with you on the couch your on you tell me you don't want me sitting with you. He told me "I don't want you sitting there with me." So how does that say I don't want to be there with you & he said he doesn't know what he's saying.
I asked if my getting better with housekeeping didn't tell him I loved him. Yeah, you're doing better with that. I asked if I do anything for him & he named off my getting up with him, fixing his lunch, cooking. I looked him in the eye & said, I do those things because I love you & to show you I love you. So how can you say I don't try to love you.

I began to wonder if he's still in contact with her. He acts like it a little. If I ask he won't tell the truth & I don't have any way of checking.

Last night & today are bad days. The day before was a good day. I sure hope we start having more good than bad before long. Yeah, we were LBing all over the place. I'm very emotional right now & cry at the drop of a hat, which he hates. And I forget what I'm supposed to do & go with the feelings instead. I do better sometimes but I still backslide some too.

We're still going camping tomorrow. So I guess that's a good thing.


Just venting today.

These kinds of conversations don't help anything and are really pretty destructive and distancing.

And you guys have them a LOT.

You aren't going to change his mind or argue him into agreeing with you. It's just not going to work. Let his stuff be his. Listen to him, listen and repeat, so you know it, and then let that be it. You aren't responsible for changing his mind. You aren't responsible for teaching him or making him do what you want him to do. He's responsible for his choices so leave them with him.



Remove yourself from the situation when he's like that. It's NOT a good time to get into relationship discussions and arguments. "Oh, honey (quick peck) I love you. I'll see you when you're in a better mood." Then go start on a load of laundry or cooking dinner or something.




Might have been whatever was bothering him. Listening and repeating, "getting" what he said instead of using it as a door to an argument, might have stopped things right there. "Wow. So you've been thiking about ________ today and you're feeling __________ about it? I'm really glad that you shared that with me. I like it when we can talk about things like this, even though they are hard to hear or talk about.



"I hear you saying you've set a time frame for when you will decide whether or not you want to remain in this M. Thanks for sharing that with me."

Nothing left for him to argue with, now, is there? There might be some room for him to correct you on what he meant or said, but there's nothing to argue about as far as whether he is right or not, or whether he has to justify it. He can have timelines all he wants. You can't argue him out of it. And it doesn't mean you have to live by his timeline. Hopefully you will still be around when his timeline runs it's course. But that's your choice, that's the only part you DO control.



Did you really ask him that? "Don't you remember you said you loved me yesterday?" What was the point of that? To prove to him that he loves you? And then argue with him about whether he said it or not? Kind of cheapens the whole thing, I'd think.

Your H runs with whatever emotion he's feeling at the moment. He's feeling lovey, sneaks in an ILY or cuddles up next to you at night one minute, and then the next minute he's feeling mean or frustrated or angry or whatever and tries to alienate you. Tired of that roller coaster yet? Those things are about him, not you. Let them stay with him. YOU choose YOUR actions, remember? He's responsible for his own.




You don't have to tell him about what changes you've made. Let him see for himself. The point is not to argue with him about it -- let him believe what he wants to believe. And you go with what you believe.

"I agree, I wish I'd found the FlyLady 23 years ago, too. Now that I have finally figured it out, I'm sure a lot happier with how the house looks. How do you feel about how it looks now?"
"I hear you saying that you thought I've been living like I'm the only person here. Do you still feel that way?"

I'm not saying you have to agree with him. His truth is his own truth. Same thing as "I hear you saying you think caviar tastes good" doesn't mean that I agree that caviar tastes good. But I can understand that you think so, and know that it wouldn't do any good to argue with you and tell you all the reasons why you shouldn't like it.

Same thing applies here. He thinks that you used to live too inependently (or whatever -- clarify to get to what he's truly saying). Doesn't make it true, but you can acknowledge that he believes it. And thank him for sharing that with you.



Ok, this is a bit of a DJ. But I also think it's good that you're thinking along the lines of choosing your own actions. Deciding how long you will or won't wait for him to commit to the M. Starting to determine some boundaries of your own. That's a foot headed in the right direction.



Unless he said that, you don't really know what he sees. In other posts, you've said that he feels so much guilt that he can't see straight. So maybe he sees LOTS of things wrong with what he did and is just trying to justify his actions. You don't know. Let it be his. You focus on you.



These are conversations you should have at the time. Then they aren't ammunition to bring up for later. Arguing about it later really doesn't help anything, it just brings up more things for you both to be resentful and angry about.

So, if you have a boundary that you won't be around him when he's being mean or testy, then enforce it. When he's mad at someone else and gets testy with you, you say "Ouch! I'm on your team, remember? I don't want to feel like a punching bag today. I'll be out in the garden if you need a friend to talk to."

or "Honey, I'd love to help you with the cars, but I get pretty hurt when you start yelling like you are, so I think I better avoid that for today. Maybe the neighbor's husband can help? I'll have a nice dinner done at 6 and bring you guys some."

Your boundaries, set and enforced and over with. And not argument fodder for a month or three later.



"I hear you saying you will do what you want when you want. That's pretty understandable, I think most people only do what they want to do. I agree that I can't stop you from doing anything you want to do, and I wouldn't want to, I don't want to be your parent. I'll let you know how I feel when your choices affect me so you can have all the information you need when making your choices."

You already know that you can do what you want when you want. You don't have to sink to his level to rub that in his face, the way he tried to rub it in yours.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Oh, c'mon. You are better than this. Lying because that's what he wants to hear .... how is that any different from him telling you he won't contact the OW, becasue that's what you want to hear, when he has full intentions of doing so, anyway? Live up to your own standards, girl. Quit letting him make you react into being someone you are not, into making choices that go against your own values.



That's because these kinds of arguments are not win-able. You will never be able to talk him into or argue him into or beg or cry or force him into seeing things your way. So every time you try, you are putting yourself ina situation you cannot win. What you CAN do is know how you feel, and share it; listen to how he feels and understand it; make choices FOR YOURSELF and let him make his own choices.

You've given him some good reasons to choose to make the marriage better. Now you have to let him make that choice. And you choose what you are going to do.


I'd keep going through and giving "listen and repeat" examples for the rest of your post, but I'm sure you got the point. Plus I think this post is sounding a little bit harsh, and I don't mean it to. You really remind me a lot of me. I had people who were much more couth, more empathetic and smarter than I am to help me start seeing some of these patterns and figuring them out. That's why I feel like I can recognize the same patterns in some of your posts. Much easier to quarterback someone else's game from my lazy-boy on Monday mornings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


-AmI.

Thanks, AmIok.

And no I didn't think you sounded too harsh. I really appreciated it.



No, I didn't ask him that. What got that started was I told him I really appreciated him telling me he loved me before I left & that it made me feel really good. He looked at me & said "I said that? I don't remember saying anything like that but I must have said it because you said it first." My only reply to that was, "No, I told you I loved you because you said it first & then I kissed you goodbye." For once during that conversation, I stopped right there & said no more about that, thinking to myself, How is it a 46 yr old man can't remember what he says from one minute to the next?




The only problem we've had with this so far is when I repeat what he said & ask him if I'm understanding what he's really saying, he tells me he didn't say it, thirty seconds after it came out of his mouth. My IC has told me to repeat back to him so I can understand, but that hasn't helped so far & THAT I don't understand. If you have any thing that will help me with this, I would greatly appreciate it.




But, you'll be glad to know that I didn't say that out loud, the Ain't happenin part. I kept that to myself. And, yeah, I can see where it's a bit of a DJ, but I'm just going on past experience. And since he tells me he's not changing anything about himself...



Yeah, he said that. He said he doesn't think he needs to do anything different because he doesn't see anything he does wrong but I do this & that & have for 23 yrs & he don't think it's gonna change now. He asked me "What happened? Did you suddenly get a wake-up call?" I told him, "Yeah, I did."




I honestly don't mind the lazy-boy quarterbacking.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It helps. He keeps telling me I need to let it go & just forget about it. That I will never let it go. I guess I'm having a hard time with that right now because I'm not feeling much effort from him.

Like yesterday, I felt overwhelmed. I feel like I'm busting my A$$ to prove to him I'm worthy of his love. I want him to put out some effort other than just being there. He still thinks that if we just let it go, don't talk about it & forget it, it will all go away. But I know that if we do, we will be right back in the same situation we've been in for the last 24 years. That's how he's been taught to deal with anything bad. Except for losing that job, which he can't let go of, that's what he's always done. He doesn't want to hear how I feel about something.

I'm hoping that will change with time. He did mention to me that I just want all this to get better right now & he said it's not going to get better right now, it's going to take time.

Another thing he said to me was he didn't know how I'd waited this long, if it'd been him he'd given up long time ago. I just looked at him & said, "you say you haven't loved me for about 10 yrs, you keep hoping you'll wake up one day & you'll be in love with me again. It sounds to me like you've waited longer than I have because you're still here, so why shouldn't I wait."


As far as the lying goes, every time I answer a question he asks, his first response is "You're lying. And you're lying if you say you're not lying." This is all the time.
Most of the time I just look at him & wonder why he never believes me when I tell him anything. He's been lying to me for so long now, he tells me he don't know what the truth is anymore & he says he doesn't know why he keeps lying to me & everybody else. His words, not mine. And, yet, he expects me to believe everything he tells me without question. Amazing!!!

I just want to tell you again that I appreciate your help. Just knowing someone who's been where I'm at & understands my mistakes enough to show me a better way is a big help.

I asked him about counseling last night. He told me he won't go, he don't need counseling but I have some serious issues so I should get counseling. He says there's nothing wrong with him for him to need counseling.

It's so frustrating sometimes. And just when I think I see light at the end of the tunnel, something like Wednesday evening happens & I think I'm back to square one.

Well, maybe the weekend will be better. We're going camping, leaving today & be back on Monday. I hope & pray the weekend goes great & we finally have a little fun.

Well, the weekend went pretty good until Sunday. We just hung out, rested & enjoyed the weather. Sunday, we started talking. I asked some questions, not about us but about how he felt & what he wanted. I listened & tried not to tell him how he felt. I don't think I did but I did tell him he was telling me how I felt a time or two. I was calm.

OW called me by accident Friday night while we were at the football game. A friend asked her why & not to do it again. She said my number & the number of a guy she was calling was next to each other & she hit the wrong one.

WH says he got an anonymous text message about my asking the friend to tell her not to do it again. Don't know how that happened because when I try to send anonymous text messages, they won't go through. Then it got kinda bad. He found out I'd been snooping & got mad. I think if he had nothing to hide he wouldn't get upset about it.

His problems with my parents came into the picture. I told him again that I didn't marry to please my parents, but to please myself. We went to bed & he told me he had hoped we could at least hold off on divorce until DD#2 graduated High School. I told him I didn't think it would wait that long if that's where we are headed.

I wish he could give himself what he's given me--the courage to love someone freely without fear of what others think or say, to love because I love & not because someone chooses who they want for me. Some of our problems keep coming back to my parents. That's a problem I don't know how to solve.

But, when we got up yesterday for him to go to work, I did my usual & he was in a good mood when he came back to load up to go home. Once yesterday afternoon, we were hugging & he said the first positive thing he's said to me since this whole nightmare began. He told me we were gonna get through this. I told him I hoped we would.

I keep my fingers crossed & pray every day for it to get better. He told me he'd forgiven me for my A but never forgot. I told him I'd forgiven him but I would never forget unless I got amnesia. But if we worked things out, it wouldn't be in the forefront of my mind every day. Because he admitted he'd brought up my A from time to time. Once was when we were discussing DD#1 starting to date, don't remember why.

We'll see. Things are maybe looking up. I'm still being cautious.

Seems like a lot of drama from a mis-dialed call. Probably exactly what the OW wants -- to create problems for you and your H, with alost no effort on her own part. Don't give her what she wants! Don't let her be an entity in your life. Don't answer her calls, don't listen to messages. If she does get through and contact you, then tell her yourself not to contact you anymore. Let it be simple and easy and not worth fighting over.



We went rounds on this kind of thing, too, for a while early on. SH told my H it was his job to make sure that I didn't have to snoop. To set up a regular appointment with me where he shows me his call history and phone records, where he shows me bank statements and records, reciepts, whatever. Then the "snooping" wasn't me being sneaky anymore (I'd just ask H to see his phone, and he'd stand right there and show it to me), and it also wasn't MY job. SH said that it would be too easy for me to get into a bad habit of trying to prove the negative to myself, and that that would never be possible. So that it was H's job to prove the negative to me.

Once it was all finally out in the open, I didn't feel the need to go around sneaking his phone to check the call history or all the other things I'd been doing -- I'd just ask him, instead, or he'd randomly show it to me. Lots less resentment on both of our parts.

Just a thought. You may be able to get your H to agree to something like that (I don't know what SH said to my H to get him to agree to it.)


Can you POJA the problem with the parents? Are they rude or ugly to him? Does he want you to do something about it, or does he just need your encouragement that you chose him...?



Did you really mean that? You should avoid any D talk. Letting it hang out there as an option or as a slightly veiled threat isn't going to help either of you fel secure enough to work on the M. Your message should always be "I don't do divorce." or "I believe that we're going to build a great M, I'm not going to discuss timing of a D." or whatever. Don't get drawn into agreeing on timelines (or anything else) for a D.


Glad you had a mostly nice weekend!

Yeah, I guess you're right. He said I shouldn't have gotten so upset over a mis-dialed call. I think I did because I'm trying so hard to stay away from her & then this happens & I felt like it was mis-dialed because she was trying to call WH. Probably wrong & now I'm just trying to get past it.





I basically told him that if he could show me he didn't have anything to hide & wasn't lying to me, I wouldn't have any reason to snoop & I could trust him again. He told me it was over because he wasn't going to have a wife who was a snoop & I would never let it go so the snooping would never stop. I told him that I just wanted to trust his word & when he did things to let me know I could trust him, I could let it go.



Not sure about this. For some reason, my parents acceptance of him is extremely important. I know that they never liked him & have not given us any encouragement to stay together. But I have told him many times over the years that I didn't marry him because my parents picked him for me, I married him because I picked him for me. My brother married a woman that my dad introduced him to (Hand-picked, in other words). She has more hang-ups than my WH. But they just love her & would never say anything to my brother about how she treats the rest of us. But they have no problem coming to me when they don't like something my H does. My brother has broken something, we paid to have it fixed so we could borrow it, & my parents say we always bring things back broken & don't fix them. I know this is not true. They don't say anything to my other brother about his wife either but they complain to me alot about her. I'm the oldest. And my parents didn't marry to please their parents, so why should I?

My WH says all he ever wanted was their approval. I still don't know why that is so important to him because I never thought it was necessary. After my parents are gone, I'll be living the way I want to, not the way they want me to. If I'd let them pick for me, I might not be a happy person.

No one truly knows what goes on in someone else's marriage. And the side my H shows to the world in general is not the way he is at home. But people outside of our little family don't see that. And I don't care if they do or not. My choices are mine alone & not for others to make. Which is why my parents approval is not needed to make me have a happy marriage. If I divorce, I still won't choose to have a relationship with someone they like. The choice I make probably will not make them happy, but I have to live with my husband longer than I have to live with them & my choice should be someone I want to spend my last years with.



Yepper, you're right about this, too. I'm not sure I really meant it. But at that moment, I was so down I didn't care about anything. It was one of the really down times that I sometimes have. When I'm so deep in despair that I don't think I'll ever be happy again. But when he said we would get through this the next day, it really helped to lift my spirits & I told him that later that night, how much I appreciated hearing it. I hope he really heard how good it made me feel & that it made a difference.

I see that I'm reacting again rather than standing back & letting it roll off. When I'm down in that hole, I can't seem to remember what I need to to stop myself from doing it. Thanks for pointing it out. When you repeat it back to me, it shows me how bad I really acted. I sometimes wish I had something that would give me an electric shock everytime I started doing it to remind me not to do it.

Thanks!! I needed that.

Yesterday, I got 2 voicemails from 2 different people with the same message. It said:

"Tell WH that OW ain't no saint. She's f***ing someone named Tom lives on Palmer Street to go check it out. He needs to leave her alone."

That was the first message & the second said pretty much the same thing but a little more graphic word-wise. My WH listened to the second one. He's still trying to figure out who it is. I don't have a clue.

I asked him why someone would call me with that if he isn't seeing her. He isn't & I believe him.

But he got very angry about her sleeping with someone else. I asked why he was upset & did he think she wouldn't date anyone else. He said no he thought she would date but there is a difference in dating & sleeping with someone you just met. I told him we don't know how long she's known this guy. He called her all kinds of names & admitted to me he's jealous about it. I told him I appreciated him telling me the truth. He was even angry with me. I asked why he was upset with me because I didn't make the call. He said I wouldn't understand & it was nothing. Then he got depressed & stayed that way the rest of the night.

He was still depressed this morning. He told me last night that I probably wanted him to call her & chew her out in front of me. I told him I didn't want him to call her at all because if he did, she would just be getting the attention she wants. That someone may have been doing it for her so it would break us apart again because she's the only one who benefits by it.

But he also said he would never have anything to do with her now that she's done this. I told him he shouldn't be mad if he's done with her like he told me he was.

So now, his grieving starts & hopefully it will all be over soon. I feel that this will give us a chance since she will truly be out of the picture now.

Is your h in high school? This sounds like a stunt a 16 year old would play...and yet, instead of laughing it off..your H gets mad and jealous.

Sorry, but IMHO, there is something going on here that you are not aware of.

Lost, I got a similar phone call while FWH and I were in our first "recovery". It was from OW's best friend basically telling my husband to back off... quit sending flowers, driving by, etc. He was extremely defensive about it and somewhat embarrassed. I was shocked, I had no idea. I thought things were better.

Are you SURE there's been no contact?

That seems pretty strange that someone would call you about things like that.

Have you been "trusting but verifying"? You said you believed that he isn't seeing her, what makes you believe that? (I'm not saying you're wrong). I'd be very suspicious about these calls. Someone was certain that you would care about this information .... maybe it was OW trying one last ditch attempt at getting through to your H, or maybe it was someone trying to let you know that things between your H and OW aren't as cooled off as they seem. Either way, I think I'd want to figure that out. Do you have caller ID? Who knows your phone number?


As for your H's reaction .... I'm amazed by it, in that way I'm amazed by all WS actions, but am not really sure that it's entirely abnormal. My H works with another WH who'd had a long term A arond the same time as my H's. Took that guy longer to get his act together, but he finaly did and has been working on recovering his M. But then the OW started dating another (single) guy on his crew. He's furious and there is so much tension on his crew that even the big bosses who normally don't care about those things are trying to figure out what to do about it. It just got worse when the new guy moved in with the OW.

I have all kinds of rational thoughts about it -- and I'm sure you do, too .... I thought "what right does he have to be jealous? As if she's cheating on him -- HE was the one who was cheating! HE has a WIFE -- he doesn't get to be mad that SHE has someone, too! Was he hoping to keep her on the side, an alternate option in case things at home didn't work out? Jacka$$!!! ..... "

lol ... Apparently, I thought a lot of things, and they could probably apply to your H, too.

But my guess is that the reaction is kind of a residual of the fantasy. A by-product of the fact that he hasn't totaly committed to your M yet, and hasn't gone through withdrawl and still feels like a victim. Poor him. His girlfriend isn't available to him anymore, and she might not be all that he thought she was and his little fantasy world just keeps crumbling around his ears. I'm sure that's no fun, and probably makes it easy for him to be depressed and mean and angry -- and guess who's in the way when he feels those things.

Remember, that's not about you. Not your responsibility to fix it or take care of it.

But I would do some investigating about those calls and start confirming where he's been and what he's been up to.

-AmI.

pm,

Yes I'm sure there's been NC as far as physical. She has been getting messages to him through people at work. But the two people who are her very good friends, wouldn't tell him anything about her or her about him.

He told me last night that hearing that vmail made him realize he still loves her. He said it felt like someone was tearing his heart out, throwing it on the ground & stomping on it. I told him I have been feeling that way for a year now & that he is finally feeling what I've been feeling.

He lost his job yesterday. Why? Because he was so angry about her that he let his attitude show & it got him in trouble. They are accepting his resignation today since he'd been warned before about his attitude. He's lost, threatening suicide (I called his mother & had her come over last night because I wasn't home), convinced he will never find another job.

BTW, he should know something definite about the job in Ft. Worth today. He called yesterday & his friend there told him he would get an answer for him today. I hope it comes through.

He sent OW a text last night telling her he would never get over her & would always love her. I feel I can't compete. I told him this morning that no matter what happens job-wise, he needs to decide who he wants with him through this ordeal & on the other side. I told him my heart & soul can't take much more of his wanting me when he's in trouble & then turning his back on me when the trouble's gone.

I also told him he needs to pick his a$$ up off the floor. He's down but not out & he needs to quit trying to convince himself he's a loser. When he told me last night he'd lost everything, I told him he still had me. I told him this morning that we could have a wonderful marriage, that I believed we could, we just had to pick up & go on from here. But he had decisions to make.

My heart & soul can't take much more before it's broken, probably irreparably as far as he's concerned. Yeah, I'm down about the loss of income. But he's always been able to find a job before & I have no doubt he will again. He told me if this job in Ft. Worth doesn't pan out, he will go to Colorado on Monday to stay with his stepmom until he finds a job. I told him that was great, I supported him on that & I would find us a place to live there as soon as he found a job. But I know he may decide to walk out of my life because of this & I'm ok with that, too. I can go on & build a life without him.

I'm just in a wait & see mode now. I told him this morning I would stand by him no matter what happens for as long as he wants me there. That I'd always been there, he just couldn't see me.

He asked me last night how you could tell if God was talking to you. I told him "you know the verse that says Be still & know that I am God." yeah, he said. He's saying that you have to be still & listen, don't say anything, just be still & listen. Be quiet & hear what He's saying. I told him God has been talking to him, he just didn't want to hear what He was saying because it wasn't what he wanted to hear. That God doesn't always tell us what we want to hear but we have to listen anyway.

Pray for us. I'll update as soon as I know anything.

AmIok,



I thought so too. But I think it was a last ditch effort by her or some of her friends to cause trouble between he & I. But it could have also been a way for someone to open his eyes & make him see what she really was & get him to finally move on. He called her yesterday morning & chewed her out about it because he was hurt. Now he knows how I feel.




Yeah, this is exactly what I thought, word for word, LOL. I mentioned that to him, that he was mad & hurt because he thought she would be waiting if he decided it wouldn't work out with us. He tried to tell me he didn't think so. But he still doesn't have the guts to walk out of my life, I don't think.




Again, my thoughts exactly. And I'm not trying to fix it this time, or I don't think I am. I'm just letting him know that I will be there if he wants me & that we can re-build our lives & make them better. My MIL says he's not really mad at me, though he acts like he is, that he's taking it out on me because I'm there. And she's right. I'm so glad she could come over last night. Even if nothing she said got through to him, she at least tried to help him.

Ya know, Lost .... all this stuff combined with the phone calls and the questionable contact issue and now he's even losing his job over her .....
I guess it could all be chalked up to withdrawl, but for me, personally (and I don't know if this would fit into MB timing or not), I would be done.

There may be some people who would cut him more slack because of the depression issue .... but he's not even bothering to treat that. He's voluntarily swiming into the throat of a massive whirlpool, and trying to drag you downwith him, blaming you all the way.

How much longer are you willing to go along with it?

His whole attitude says "poor me, the world conspires against me and I have no control and am forced into situations and actions by my evil wife, evil OWH, evil bosses .....blah blah blah". It's the tantrum of a two year old and it's gone on for way too long.

Wasn't he just riding you not too long ago about not contributing enough financially to the family .... and now he goes out and completely loses his income, much less insurance and whatever other benefits the job provided?


Like I said, I don't know if it's very MB, but if it were me, I'd be at the point where he would need to show some serious effort in order to keep me around. I'm sick of hearing your H whine, and I only hear the snippets you post. I can't imagine how you're staying sane.

You said "My heart & soul can't take much more before it's broken, probably irreparably as far as he's concerned. " If you think you're on the verge of losing your love for him, then I think it's time for Plan B. Protect the last bits of your heart and soul, and let him prove that he's worth something all on his own.

Hopefully PM or a more experienced MB'er will chime in and give you a more educated opinion. I'll give you mine, but I don't think it lines up well with the conventional wisdom around here.

I'd tell him something like "I think you have great potential, and I still believe in you. I still believe that we could have a wonderful life together, and there's nothing I want more than to have that great M with you. If you decide that you want to contribute to recovering this family and marriage, then I'm all in. But that takes two of us and right now, you're so mired in your depression and self pitty that you're dead weight. I'm not going to keep letting you drag me down into the muck with you. I'm chosing a happy, fulfilled life. You can come along if you want or you can keep bogging yourself down deeper in the mud. Either way, it's your choice."

And then I'd go about doing whatever you have to do to be happy. By yourself. Without him. Get the house sold, get into a job you like, or just become fantastic at the job that you have, find some long lost friends, find your old hobbies, remmeber what things you used to do that brought you joy. Do whatever you need to do to get yourself out of that pit. You can't drag him along with you -- he has to decide that for himself. But you can show him the way by getting your own self out.

Quit having relationship discussions with him, quit worrying about OW, quit worrying about what he's doing or where he is. Quit being his parent and let himmake his own decisions. And just to protect your own heart, I'd just assume he's in full A mode.

Keep meeting his needs -- house clean, dinner cooked, pack his lunch, etc.,. Be pleasant and cheerful and happy and fun and as detached as you can possibly be. If he brings up the relationship or OW or anything more serious than "how's the weather", I'd just say "I'll be happy to discuss that with you when you're fully committed to recovering our mariage. Want some tea?" Or "I'm really not up to discussing that right now. I'm off to met the girls for coffee. See you later."

Make him start putting the effort in. It's time for him to be useful -- either by actually helping or by getting the dead weight off your shoulders.

Sort of a pre-plan B. And then I'd do a real Plan B as soon as he takes the job in Ft. Worth or Colorado.


That's just my opinion, and I've said lots of times that I'm not a pro. But there's got to be a point where he has the chance to stand up and be a man -- or choose not to -- and either way, you don't have to keep being weighed down anymore.

-AmI.

I must agree.


I don't know that he's dealing with depression so much as acute narcissism - the "it's all about me" syndrome.


Yep.


What's going on now isn't good for you, and it isn't good for him. It's not very MB of me, but I can't help but feel that you might be better off without your WH as the albatross around your neck.

PK

Yepper, reached that point. Told him I wasn't going to let him drag me down & he had some serious decisions to make. When he asked me what he should do, I told him I wouldn't make the choices for him, he had to do that but that if he wanted a life & marriage with me, he had to decide to do it & start making the effort. I told him we could have a good life together but not as long as he kept crying about OW.




Yesterday, he was kicking himself in the a$$ for doing something so stupid. We lost everything, insurance, income, 401K, company stock. He asked me why he had to go open his mouth & do somthing like that. I told him because he was angry about something he had no right to be angry about & he let his alligator mouth overload his mockingbird a$$. He said he wasn't angry but hurt. And he says he's hurt because she cheated on him so he don't trust women anymore.

This morning he wasn't going to get out of bed, gonna lay there & die. I jumped up, said fine, I don't need you to do what I want to do today & you can lay there in your little hog wallow of poor, poor me if he wanted to. I was mad. He got up right after I did & came to help me. I told him when he left to go to his mother's, that he needed to ask her what she thought about a man who was crying about being cheated on by a woman he'd broken off a relationship with & who didn't belong to him in the first place. I told him I was upset that he was whining about her cheating on him when they weren't even together, he'd told her it was over & not to wait on him & he was still married to me. He admitted I was right & I'm letting him stew on that for a while.

I don't want to hear how she cheated on him & he can't trust her now because of it. So What!!!! Big Deal!!!! They had ended their relationship.



Yeah, I basically told him this. Basically told him he had to decide who he wanted with him through this whole ordeal. He got upset with me for chewing on him yesterday. But I was tired of hearing how stupid he was. It's done & it could be alot worse. I sent him a text that said "God is trying to tell you something. You need to listen & accept what He wants you to do instead of thinking you can do it on your own. How many 2X4's does He have to hit you with before you learn?" When he asked how it could be worse, I reminded him of the car wreck our DD#2 had in December, that God was telling us then that he had the power to give & to take away & it could all be gone in the blink of an eye. That he could be facing a life without a daughter & the house could burn down tonight & we could lose everything & have nothing but ashes, so what would he do then? Lay down & let it defeat him? I won't, I'll pick up & move on. He couldn't believe I said it.



Yep because it could always be worse than it is. My wrecking my car could have been God's way of getting us out of that payment because He knew this was coming. The Ft. Worth job could come up at any time & I would go with him anywhere on this earth as long as he wants to make a life with me & I told him that. I think God let this happen to wake him up & give us the opportunity to start over somewhere else.

Everywhere I turn here, I find out about something else he did that was humiliating to me, such as taking OW to a baseball game last season in front of DD#2's classmates & the parents who've known us for years. I want to get away from all that, start fresh somewhere that nobody knows what happened.



Not gonna stop because that's what the MB plan says I should do. But I'm also not going to sit around whining about his lost job. He did this to himself, all on his own because of something he had no business being upset about. He's a big boy & I told him that he's been out of his mind for a year now & it's caused him to make some bad decisions. But I also told him that when you make a mistake, it's not the mistake but how & if you correct it that matters. I've asked myself & friends who've been in similar sitch's, why it is that they make such fools of themselves over a piece of you-know-what.

The things he claims she did for him, I had been doing for years & still did as much as he would let me. So there was really nothing new there except a new face (which has been described to me as looking like a man).

I told him this morning I'm not going to sit around crying because he's feeling sorry for himself. He said he's disappointed in himself & I told him he should be but he's the only one who can change his life now. That if he really wants to he can become someone he'd be proud to know & make sure he don't disappoint himself again.

I have not told him he shouldn't have done what he did. Just agreed with him when he said it. I told him it didn't matter what had happened, we would make it through if we did it hand in hand & worked together.



Yeah, I think it could be. I don't think he ever went into withdrawal because he thought that OW would be there waiting if it didn't work out with me. Which is why I don't think he's put much effort into us. I'm gonna wait a little longer & see which way the wind blows.

Am I upset about the job? Yeah, kinda. The loss of income & insurance will be the hardest part. But since he will finally be away from the place that daily reminds him of & makes him miss OW, I'm really happy that he lost it.



I know it isn't good for me, but maybe it is good for him. Maybe this is what he needs to put things in perspective & help him make his decisions. As of 9 a.m. today, I'm not gonna give in to his feeling sorry for himself because he was being an idiot. He can whine all he wants to himself. I ain't gonna listen to it anymore. I asked him why he can't ever look for the good in anything & that I'm tired of being his cheerleader every time something goes wrong. I told him he needs to pull himself up by his boot straps & decide where he's going from here. And if that's sleeping your life away, fine, I got other things to do.

Sometimes God uses a pine tree to get his point across. I think that pine tree just fell square on WH's head. Pretty hard to avoid now, huh?

Sounds like he is depressed. I think I would talk to his mom and see if she can get him to go to the doc for some anti-D's. Otherwise he is in kind of a downward spiral. It is hard just to pick yourself up and get over all this stuff. I know a lot of folks here won't agree.

As far as the OW cheating, THAT is what she is, a cheater. No surprise there. If her husband committing suicide didn't make her take a minute to examine her choices, nothing else will either.

Read through this thread & have to say that your H WAS still seeing the OW through all of this. That balogney about him going through withdrawal the whole time is just that. He was still seeing her. Why else would he say "she's cheating on me"? Because they're together as a couple! He's in a depression now b/c he realizes that she's a player, always has been & he got duped. Sounds like my FWH. The reality is that you cannot recover your M when he's like this. You're not even considered reconciled yet. Yeah, he may be living in the same house, but you're worlds apart. He still has his head up his a$$.



Don't make the same mistake I did. Please don't try to talk to him about God. He isn't hearing him & he thinks you're preaching to him. Only God can convict him of his actions. Let Him do His job all on His own.



You're right. He doesn't. But do you have the guts to walk away from him? I'm not saying permanently but temporarily until he gets the help he needs. I agree w/the others. He is dragging you down w/him in his own mess he created. You need to stand up for yourself & not let your spirit get dragged down w/him. This whole thing of him wanting to be on his own, do his own thing, not answering to anybody is for SINGLE people. Not MARRIED people. YOu answer to each other b/c you have another person who is involved in your life now - their feelings get taken into consideration & their thoughts. You work as a team. What he wants is to do his own thing & when things don't work out or he comes crawling cause he needs you, he wants you to be there to pick up the pieces. I'm talking from experience here. My H was the exact same way. He wanted to do his "own thing" but at the same time, he wanted me there as a "friend" to unleash his feelings on & for me to pat him on the back & say "there, there". Until I walked away from HIM, he didn't realize that he actually wanted me in his life & that I was the best friend he always wanted. Until I had the guts to say "stop!" he kept walking all over my heart.

Please don't make the same mistakes I did. It's funny how when you walk away from THEM, how they come running after you b/c they don't want to get left behind.

believer,



He is on anti-D's. His mother is talking to him & telling him to make his choices. She thinks sometimes he isn't listening but he is.

I don't consider it cheating if she was told to go on with her life & he's angry about someone who didn't belong to him in the first place.

He came home last night from the deer lease & I thought maybe he'd made a choice & was going to stick with it. He said he wanted to stay with me & be with me. I told him we could make it work together.

This morning, he gets a text message & gets all "you were snooping over my shoulder" on me, says he erased it without reading it & he doesn't know who it was from. I think he's lying & won't tell me.

ST,



I don't believe he was seeing her but he was still in contact with her through text messages, vmail & through people he worked with. She was getting messages to him that way. Don't know if he's truly in withdrawal right now or not. Still lying to me & hiding things from me.

So I sent him a text this morning, after we got into it. "I'm sorry. Maybe you should just leave me alone until you get a job and your ready to work on a life with me."

He told me during all this that things were changing. Then he told me he was so down about his job that he wasn't worried about anything but that right now, that the other stuff he wasn't thinking about. He said after he gets a job, he will start working on other things, himself first.

I hope he really means it.


As far as this goes, I'm just going with what he's been asking me, like "How can you tell when God is talking to you?" He's been bringing up God lately.




Yeah, so far up it he won't see daylight for days. I don't considered us reconciled until he starts putting effort into us. He told me last night he was ready to leave, go somewhere else & start fresh. I told him I was ready, too. That if he wanted to go to Colorado, go, find a job & I would take care of things here & come up there & find us a place to live, after he got a job. He's gonna call his stepmom to ask her if he can stay with her until he finds something. But since she just got laid off from her job, I'm not sure he can stay with her. We'll talk to her today & see.




I'm not gonna let him drag me down. I'm trying to get along & when he leaves to find a job somewhere else, I don't intend to call him or talk to him for awhile. I might if he calls me but I won't put any effort into contacting him. As much as I still love him, I can't do this to myself anymore.

I told him last night that I was not going to follow & live with a man who wasn't interested in building a life with me & didn't want me with him. He had to make a choice sooner or later & the sooner the better. I told him, "you said you're heart had been stomped on, how many times are you gonna stomp on mine?"




I told him that Friday. I told him that he wanted me when he was in trouble but that when the trouble's gone, he turns his back on me. I told him I wasn't gonna go through that anymore. He had to want me when there wasn't any trouble in his life.

He erased numbers of former co-workers from his phone yesterday. I don't know if he erased OW's but I hope he did. I haven't checked. I hope he's truly done with her, but I'm not sure. I hope he meant what he said last night about wanting to be with me.

This morning he said that I should see the look on my face, that it was evil. Yeah, I said, because I'm so pi$$ed that you're still hiding things from me. Did you not understand that working things out between us meant no more secrets & separate lives? His answer, I guess not.

After he left the house, I sent the text. He'll be home in a little while & we'll see how things go.

I'm pretty sure I was LB'ing. I was hurt. I shouldn't have done it. I wanted to believe he was finally telling me the truth. Fooled again!!!!




I don't think I've found out how to get the strength to do this yet. And how did you know your H was finally in & out of withdrawal & recovery was possible? Do they say it or do they show it?

It is considered cheating when his thoughts/feelings are on someone else & not on his wife where they should be. Of course, that's just my personal opinion, although I'm sure a lot would agree here. Remember emotional affair?



Contact is contact is contact. I don't know how many times I had to drill this into my H's brain. I always said to him, "What about NC do you NOT understand?" No contact MEANS no contact! As long as there's contact, there is STILL an A. Doesn't matter if they sleep together or not.



Sorry about that. I got the impression that you were bringing it up. As long as he asks, then yes, be honest & tell him those things.



Your H needs to get it through his head that being held accountable for his actions & in order to prove trustworthiness, he needs to follow through w/whatever he has said he's going to do. It is not "snooping" when you check on him. Be honest & tell him that you are going to go through his cell phone. That he is going to have to copy you on e-mails, things like that. It IS secrecy when he doesn't want you looking in his cell phone. "A man who has nothing to hide, hides nothing." If he's untrustworthy, which he is, then he needs to prove that he can be trusted. And this takes time. If he was robbed, would he automatically trust a known thief w/his things w/o checking up on him to make sure he didn't steal anything? Of course not. Same applies.



After my H moved back home, her name didn't get mentioned until I would bring her name up. After the 1st year of "recovery", he tried to contact her. I fumed. So apparently he had been thinking about her. After that fiasco, he no longer tried to contact her. He concentrated on spending time w/me, communicating w/me, going to MC, & one day out of the blue he told me he loved me first when we were getting ready to hang up the phone when he was going to work. He had made it very clear that he wasn't going to say ILY to me until he was sure that he meant it. I knew then that he meant it. He was also showing it though. He was finally interested in ME. He in turn & even now has become very clingy to me. He stares at me. He laughs w/me. He rubs my hand when we're sitting there on the couch. He asks me to go for walks all the time. We hold hands. We walk arm in arm sometimes. He SHOWS it. Actions always speak louder than words. Love is an action, it is not a feeling. Feelings come after the action. Read Corinthians Chapter 13. It describes what love looks like. That's how I knew.

Recovery is an ongoing process. I look back now & realize that we have recovered from this infidelity nightmare, however, the work continues. In order to not follow in those patterns again, we developed this new lifestyle, new way of relating to each other that is for life. Not just for a while until the "feelings" come back. That's why I say it's an ongoing process. In order to be "in love" as some say for a lifetime, it requires the ACTION of love daily.

Lost,

You were not in recovery. Why? Because there has been contact, whether indirect, direct, physical, non-physical. As long as there is contact of any kind, the affair is still on. You and he cannot begin to heal until there is absolutely NO contact of any kind. Why not prepare a list of things that you REQUIRE (your boundaries) before going any further. Be prepared to enforce those boundaries. The first thing should be no contact, and then he needs to write a “no contact” letter to her, with your approval, and then hand it to YOU to mail. There should be 100% transparency. No secrets.

I know exactly how you’re feeling about your WH’s feelings for OW. My husband mourned his 1st OW after I took him home and nursed him back to health after his car accident. I thought they were over because he left my house one day and said he had to see her to “tell her it was over.” Boy, was I gullible. It was a few months after that, that I received the phone call about him more or less stalking her.

OK, here’s a gentle 2x4. You are not helping your husband. I know you’re hurt but you’re behaving exactly like I did when my husband came home the first time. I was awful to him. BUT I was so angry (that was my excuse). If you really want to follow MB’s (proven) plans, then you need to stop LBing him. He NEEDS you right now. He has hit bottom. Do you step on him while he’s down or do you take this opportunity to be the loving wife you are? Learn to bite your tongue. You know he’s done you wrong. We know he’s done you wrong. Even WH knows. But you can’t force him to act or do ANYTHING. I thought I could and it backfired big time. You can only enforce your own boundaries. (2x4 over)

IF your husband is sincere about wanting to stay with you then he’ll respect your requirements. Oh, and BTW, your WH moving away without you right now is a BAD move. Don’t you know that in the state he’s in right now the chances are high that he will continue contact with OW or even find another OW?

He’s at the bottom right now (or as my DH likes to say, he's eating dirt). Reach out lovingly and offer your hand. If he wants to take it, let him know it’s there when he needs it. Constantly lift him up in prayer. Ask God to put people in his path that will help him get back to God, his family and you.

Sorry, my bad. I didn't say it so anyone could understand what I meant. I do that sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I meant that I don't consider her cheating on him when she was told to go on with her life. As for him, yeah, he was still caught up in the A.




I told him the same thing. I told him that just because they weren't seeing each other didn't mean it was over if they were still communicating. You'd think he'd get it by now, which BTW, I think he finally has after this last fiasco.



Same thing I told him yesterday. I said that if he didn't have anything to hide, he wouldn't think I was snooping. I was looking over his shoulder, what did he think, I couldn't see?????



He is so down on himself right now. But I think he finally got the picture.

Yesterday, after he came home, I went to him, held him & told him we would make it somehow. I've been trying to cheer him up & keep him going. It's hard to do since he's trying to convince himself he's lost everything. I reminded him last night that he still had me & we would get through this.

Yeah, he's kicking himself in the keister right now. But I told him there was no use crying about it now, what's done is done & we need to pick up & go on. I've told him I would be there for him.


He told me last night he didn't know what he'd do without me. This after I helped him with changes on his resume. I told him he could've done it & he said no that he was glad I was there. This morning, like a little kid, he told me on the phone, "I wish you were here." I know he needs help with job hunting but I still have to work & do as much as I can. He says now he's glad he didn't let me go.

He's being more affectionate but I chalk that up to the sitch & not recovery. He's always been that way, needing touch when he's down. I don't mind. He needs to know I'm there in a way she never could be.




On that, you are on the mark. I had hoped we were but I can see now we weren't. Since all this happened, maybe after the job sitch clears up, we can really begin to recover.



Appreciate the 2X4. After he left yesterday, I realized I need to stop thinking about me & get him & us through this mess. So, I've started building him up. And when he tries to lay down & cry on me, I make him get up & move & do something positive for the sitch. Like yesterday evening, I got him on the internet looking for jobs & made him go to the grocery store with me so he would get out of the house for a while. We went by my office & updated his resume before we came home. I'm trying to hold this family together, like I have in the past. I told him last night that he'd said that in the past when he was without a job, he felt like he was all alone. I told him he wasn't alone but I felt like I was the only one trying to hold this family together & keep everyone going, that I didn't feel like I got any help from anyone. He said he's alone now, but I reminded him that he has me & he's not alone & I'm just as affected by this as he is. We'll get through this together, we always have.




The reason for this is he can go to Colorado & stay with family until he gets a job. As for the Ft. Worth job, if that comes through, (which I think it will) he will have to go through a 6 month probation period before he's considered hired. He is still being considered for a position there. And if he goes to Ft. Worth, I'll be with him every minute I can. If he goes to Colorado, the same. Right now, it's important to him to know that I will go with him without question. I want to get away from here. I want to go where no one knows whats happened & we can make a fresh start. I can't quit my job until he gets another one.

Yeah, I'm afraid that the possibility exists for another A. But I feel that staying with his family will lessen the possibility because they'll know what he's doing, especially if he stays with his stepmom.



Even he says he's hit bottom. I'm doing the best I can with a bad sitch. Again, I feel like everybody's cheerleader but no one's here to cheer for me. I feel I don't have anyone to turn to because I can't let him see my fears & depression. I do have a friend who will listen but I hate constantly going to her when she probably has her own problems.

Thanks for the advice & for listening. I'll keep coming here to vent & get bad feelings out so I don't let them out on anybody.

This time, I truly hope he has realized what he's done & needs to do from now on. I know the sitch could be worse. I keep looking up & praying it doesn't get any worse.

Thanks for the prayers, time & 2X4's!!!!

Lost,

I'm sorry if you've mentioned this & I missed it. But how long has your H been on anti-D's? Was he suffering from depression before the A?

There are about 15 more "I told him's" that I was going to quote, but my point is that you need to STOP telling him. He knows. He's and adult, he's not stupid. He knows.

But when you TELL him, then guess who becomes the bad guy? You are the lecturing, nagging, "evil" person who won't let him do what he wants. He gets to pin all his pain and anger and frustration on you because you are the 'evil' one telling him what to do.

Do you want to continue to be his parent?

If not, then stop. Get out of his way and let him make his own choices. You already know that you won't be able to convince him or teach him or argue him into anything -- and every time you do, he just sucks you down deeper into his hole.

So quit trying to tell him what to do, quit telling him to make a choice, and start making your own.

Right now, he's already gone. He might be in the house, might be saying the right things once in a while, but he's been maintianing a relationship with his OW while trying to snow you into believing that your rough recovery was your fault. That's pretty much the definition of an A. He even thinks SHE cheated on HIM -- gotta have a relationship to cheat on. So he's gone, and you aren't going to "talk" him into coming back.

It's time to stop talking, time for him to make some choices and take some action (and you don't need to TELL him that, you just need to make your own choices and take your own actions). Stop having relationship converstions with him. Stop having any serious conversations with him. Anything more intense than "how's the weather" needs to float off into nowhere land without discussion, becasue these discussions are not going to help either one of you.

Until he's shown some actual action, serious changes, then don't talk about it. Have a few pat answers ready to go to change the subject.
"That's interesting, hon. Should we have lasagna for dinner tonight?"
"I'll be interested to see how that works out for you."
"I really don't want to discuss your girlfriend anymore, it is too painful. See you later, I'm meeting the girls for coffee."
"Thanks for sharing that." (the trick is to leave the sentence at that -- don't argue or discuss or give your opinion).
"I'd love to discuss that with you once you've committed to making our marrige work. Until then, want some ice cream?"

I think that anything else is going to be a waste of your breath and just keep making you the bad guy. Once you start seeing some actual effort, then it might be worth it to address some of these big issues. Until then, they are just part of the noose he is using to drag you down with him.

-AmI.

What are we? Chopped liver? LOL. You have us. Like I told someone else before... remember the cell phone commercial where the guy's network is following him everywhere he goes? Just imagine that's us. We're behind you. We're here for you. Come here and vent away. We can handle it.

((Lost))

PM, I think highly of your opinion, but do have a couple of questions.

You said
But she's already had this conversation with him. Several times. And each time, new drama comes up, new contact, and more of his "poor me" wallowing. He's flat-out refuesd NC, faked NC, argued about NC..... pretty much killed the NC boundary. How much longer do you think she should contiue to allow that without enforcing that boundary? (I'm not asking facetiously, I'm serious, I am not good at knowing the timing on these things -- I'm hoping that people like you who are better at making that call will keep posting here).


I agree that lost needs to stop LB'ing. I'm wondering how much "help" she should give him, though. This has been his pattern, to "need" her, keeping her sucked in, while the whole time he's in the backroom playing hooky with OW -- sucking all of them that much deeper. I think his "need" is a manipulation tactic and I wonder how much she should help him and how much she should let him face his own consequences? IMO, he needs to face the consequences before he ever changes any behavior. How do you draw the line between the two -- helping him and lettinghim face his own consequences?


He's already continuing contact with OW. And hiding it and lying about it (ex: the most recent txt message). A move away would be a good facilitator for Plan B. And my guess is that lost is long past the need for Plan B -- but again, I am not good with timing. So a move away isn't usually recommended in Plan A, but I'm not sure how much longer she should be plan-A'ing, anyway. What are your thoughts on that timing?

Thanks.
-AmI.

I think Lost has been through a lot of cr*p with his man and his OW. As far as the plans go, I'm no expert. I've only read about them on the site and here on this board. I've never actually done them. Shoot, if I had known about MB, I would have saved myself a lot of grief when I was going through my own stuff.

With that said, from what I gather from reading here, I think it's really up to her how long she's willing or able to continue Plan A. But there's also the argument about not being a doormat while in Plan A. I get the impression that she really loves her husband and wants to work things out.

So I think she should continue Plan A until she can't do it anymore and is about to lose whatever love she has left for him. The purpose of Plan B (as I understand) is to protect that love but also to prepare her either way to get on with her life... with or without him.

Hopefully some of the longtimers will chime in and give their opinion.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />Sorry I haven't been on the last few days. I've been helping him find a job & update his resume.

The last text messages I know about were last Tuesday. I found 2 from her that he hadn't read & erased them before he saw them. I know he'd sent her messages that Monday & these were answers to his. He'd erased all the others. I called her friend & left her a vmail asking her to tell OW that if she didn't cease & desist contact with my WH that I would go the legal route, file a RO & have her served with it at her job in front of everybody. As far as I can tell, there's been no further contact.

But I put him on notice that I wouldn't be his crisis manager & get him through this just to have it go back to the way it's been the last year. He has told me that he needs me & wants me, that if he finds a job in another city & moves, he is taking me with him & wants no one else with him.

I have a time certain in my head that if things don't change, I'll be gone after he gets a job. If I remember right, I shouldn't tell him the time frame I have in mind.

So far, things are going OK. He's working a temporary job with someone we know that'll pay the bills. He has applications in Ft. Collins, Colorado & several cities in Texas. I keep feeling that something is gonna break soon & he'll have one of the jobs he's applied for. Hopefully it'll be the one in Ft. Worth. We had a family meeting Sunday to discuss moving & get input from our DD's. Both are agreeable & since DD#2 is graduating high school this year, she's not too concerned about a move as long as she finishes school here. We are ok with that.

The only thing that's changed is he's gotten a little distant. But I chalk that up to withdrawal. I get the feeling he's realizing that she wouldn't be able to help him get through this & has admitted to me that I've always been there for him during times like this. In the last year, he's told me I was never there for him during bad times & he always felt alone. So a minor change but one I didn't expect. But I'm not totally believing him yet. That will take time.

I'm still doing the things I've been doing for him & he seems to really appreciate it. I'm still picking him up off the floor, but that's nothing new. But he is also, at times, picking me up for once. I've started back giving him little notes & cards I make up. I used to do this alot & sneak them in his lunch that I fixed every day, until he started his mid-life crisis & told me he didn't want me doing those things for him anymore. Now he wants me doing them again.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He did ask me if he should go & beg for his job back or accept it if they decided to offer it to him again (they are really in a bind because he knew that plant backwards & forwards & no one else in Maintenance does). I asked him if he really thought I wanted him to go back to a place that reminded him daily about someone & kept him from letting her go. He admitted he didn't think I would & he didn't really want to go back. So on that we agree anyway.

Haven't had any bites on the house but a few have looked. We decided to keep part of the land to build on later, like after we retire.

I'm still plugging along, trying to keep things going. One thing that upsets me is the lack of SF. I'm hoping, based on what I've learned here, that it will come back to him after he gets through withdrawal & this latest crisis. He says he has no interest in that anymore & I've told him I won't live in a marriage without it. Should I wait for a while & let him make a move on his own? On this, I'm not sure how to handle it. Sometimes, I wonder if he's doing that so that I'll divorce him anyway. Then he can tell everyone he didn't want a divorce but since I couldn't live the way he wanted, I had to leave. Or maybe he wants me to cheat on him so he can still look like the good guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But, in any case, if I don't see a definite change in his attitude toward me & our marriage within a reasonable amount of time, I will end it. I'm hoping that a job in a new city, where he can live by himself until I'm free to join him when the house sells, is my opportunity to Plan B for a while. When that happens, I plan to NC him unless he contacts me first. We'll see how it goes. I still love him for no reason I can put into words but I've never needed a reason.

So far that's it for now. I'll get on again soon & update. Hopefully, it'll be to tell everyone he got a job!!!

I appreciate all the hugs & the listening everyone does for me. This is the only place I really feel I have anyone to pick me up when I need it!!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One other thing that happened last week.

I go home for lunch most every day. We were fixing lunch together & WH looked at me & said, "You look so sexy since you lost that weight. I really think you look great." My reply, "Thanks!! I feel sexier since I lost the weight. That's why I'm working so hard to keep it off."

This was an out-of-the-blue compliment. We were talking about something totally different. And it's the first real compliment I've gotten since DDay. It made me feel really good.

So I guess there's still hope for us.

I got word about OW yesterday.

She has said that she no longer feels the same way about my WH & she won't have anything to do with him as long as he's married. But she doesn't think it would ever work out between them anyway. This from her "best" friend, who's been trying to keep them apart & help me get things together.

She mentioned that he holds grudges & blasted her about something from the past when he called her about the guy she is dating. She says she doesn't want to be with someone who constantly brings up stuff from the past.

That is one thing we are trying to work on. WH & I are both bad about bringing up the past in arguments. He is doing better about it & so am I. But apparently not with her, LOL.

He's very distant. The affection he was showing the first week after he lost his job has ended. I hope I'm right that this is just a symptom of withdrawal. I'm trying to wait it out without getting upset but is sure is hard.

Also, should I put my boundaries in writing for WH or just talk to him about them? Right now he's unapproachable about anything. And should I wait until I know he's through withdrawal before bringing it up?

If anyone has anything they used to cope with this, I would sure like to hear about it.

Just needing to vent a little.

WH is now convinced that he will never get a good job & we will be stuck here barely getting by. I can't tell him anything positive without him throwing it back in my face. And forget about anything positive being said to me. I've just stopped talking to him & trying to lift his spirits. Yesterday I sent him a text message that I was thinking about him & I have a strong feeling that something big is just around the corner. He asked me last night why I thought that & when I told him, he scoffed at me. I can only be up for everybody so long before I drop.

I hope his distance & lack of affection is only withdrawal. I have found no evidence of any more contact between them. It's been almost 2 weeks since NC. He's back to saying he doesn't know what he wants & he knows how I feel he just doesn't know what to do about it. This is in conversations started by him. I did go to him to try to tell him how I'm feeling right now & I was accused of bi***ing & told that was the reason he cheated on me, because I bi*** all the time. Still in the fog.

I sometimes want to tell him to leave but I know I can't do that. I wish he'd go off on his own until he gets his head & his heart on the same page. And his grand wish that if we don't talk about anything or try to work on anything, all the bad stuff will just go away, ain't gonna happen. He's fooling himself.

And I don't want to go back to the marriage I had. I want a better one. I'll be glad when he sees that.

Just needed to talk a bit.

Thread drift....

I am going to a funeral of a friend tomorrow for this exact reason (the thread title). Friend found out that his wife of 15 years was cheating on him and when he confronted her she said it didn't matter because she had filed for divorce. He went off the deep end. Got a gun and threatened suicide and when the cops came he pointed the gun at them and they fired 15 shots at him hitting him 5 times. Suicide by cops. He was 42. RIP Tony.

People are shocked. He was a very friendly and liked guy. Personally I don't think there is a way to tell if someone would do themselves in because of their spouses rejection. Just about everyone didn't think this guy was the type.

I'm so sorry to hear that.

Missed your last few posts, just getting caught up. Sounds like the roller coaster is still in full swing. One day you're sexy the next your scoffed at. No fun.

You mentioned putting your boundaries in writing -- what would that look like? What are your boundaries?

Boundaries have progressive, pre-determined, pre-communicated enforcements. What are your boundary enforcements? What must he do to prove to you that he's comitted to this M?

You're doing a lot of carrying for him. Taking on consequences of his actions. Propping him up. You said you can only do this for so long until you drop -- why are you doing it? What do you get out of it? Knowing that might give you a little more strength to keep hanging in there -- or it might give you a reason to stop.


My opinion -- and it's always easier to give when you're not the one in the heart of the drama -- I think it's time to let him pick himself up, show his own worth, clean up his own mess. You sit back and watch, and take care of yourself. Be your bright, sparkling, happy, sexy, moving-on self, making a great life and future for yourself. Let him know that he's invited to come along with you if he wants, as long as he pulls his own weight. Otherwise, you're done carrying him and you have better things to do than let him keep dragging you down.

Lost, your WH created this mess. And he did it by totally disrespecting you and your feelings and your M and your family. It's not your job to make that "ok" for him. Get out of the way of his consequences. When he whines about it, take yourself out of the equation. "Sounds like you're pretty down about that." "Thanks for sharing your feelings with me." "Hmmmm." .... Notice the periods on the ends of those statements? That's the end of the statement. You don't keep going, don't keep discussing, don't keep trying to fix him, talk him out of it, boost his ego. No getting in the mud with him.


There will be recovery time later to have R conversations and address and fix the other problems. But wait until he's committed to the M and has shown it in his actions before you invest in those kinds of conversations. Right now, he's so far out in la la land that all of that is just more gunk and doesn't mean anything to him yet.

Every time you lecture him or try to make him feel better or "tell" him anything, you're putting youself in the way of his consequences, putting yourself in the parent role, and giving him an excuse to point his resentment and anger at you instead of where it belongs. Do you really want to sign up for that long-term?

-AmI.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry to hear that. I can only imagine how you feel. In my sitch, no one thought her BS would do it because he had threatened it so many times, it was like the little boy who cried wolf. In the end, he did anyway. What's so unreal about the whole thing is he was a WH & his OW came to his funeral. He had been with her right to the end while trying to get his WW to come back to him.

You just never know anymore.

Yep, full swing on a daily basis.




I asked because I was wondering if putting them in writing, what I will accept & what I want in this marriage, would be better than telling him when he doesn't seem to be listening. Thinking that maybe if it was in black & white (or purple & white in my case, LOL) where he could see it would be a good thing.

My boundaries?? I will not be part of a threesome. I want a marriage of just two, he & I. I will not go back to the marriage I had, it didn't work then why would it work now?? I want to learn to solve our problems without bringing up the past, concentrating only on the problem & not unneccessary stuff. I want us both to treat each other better. I want a life where my H & I enjoy time together & spend that time with each other now that the kids are grown. I don't want to be a comfortable old shoe, which is what I am now. I won't be his crisis manager anymore. I won't bust my a$$ to help him find a job so he can leave me for someone else as soon as he gets one. Would it be better for it to be in writing???


So far, he's only committed to me when he needs me. I'm not allowing him to do it anymore. I've quit picking him up. Saturday, he told me he wanted a D. I told him "I don't but if you do, then you get it. I won't do it for you. I want & know I can have a good marriage with you. You make your own choices." And I left it at that.

Maybe I did good & maybe I didn't. I can't tell but maybe others can. I didn't argue with him & I let him stew on his choice. I refuse to compete with her anymore.

Let me know what you think about my boundary question.

Hearing others say what they see helps me see things that I can't because I'm too close.

He's done. He has admitted to me that he can't get over OW & doesn't want to. That no matter what, even if he had decided to stay with me, he would never cut off contact with her & give her up.

So now I'm done. He has the divorce papers & I hope he files them today. I can't take anymore. I only hope she is there for him & will take him back because as dumb as it sounds, I don't want him to be alone. I'd rather see him with her than see him alone. Kinda stupid of me, huh???

I just love him so much that I don't want to see him end up that way. I hope he moves out as soon as he files. If he files today or tomorrow, we can be divorced by January 1. And then I can start over.

He says he can't fault me for anything except that I never kept the house as clean as he wanted, wasn't a freak in bed & I'm too corny & say things he thinks are corny & that's stupid to him. But there is someone out there that will appreciate my being kinda corny. I hope someday he misses that about me.

I told him that after he files, I don't want anything more to do with him, no contact of any kind until I don't love him anymore. I don't want to be his friend. He doesn't understand that. When I set down my boundaries, he accuses me of being a b***h, says she would never b***h.

I've told him I won't accept being part of a threesome, I won't accept living half a life & will not settle for anything but a complete marriage. I've told him I will not be his crisis manager & will not bust my a$$ to help him find a job, type his resume, do his computer work only to have him walk away with someone else as soon as he gets the job he wants. I won't settle for a marriage with no SF just because he has hang-ups about what he's done. I want the total package & for the love I get to be as unconditional as the love I give. When I set these boundaries, he gets angry & tells me he's filing for divorce because he's tired & ready for it to be over.

BTW, he didn't take the papers to file today, saying he wouldn't have time. Why would you put off what you know is the right thing to do.

He told me that when he's with her, he doesn't feel it's wrong, but he feels bad because he's still married to me. If that's the case, (I'm asking here, I didn't ask him this) why would you stay married to someone if you felt that it's not where you should be & you were happier somewhere else?? If if felt right to be with someone else, wouldn't you want to hurry up & get out of a bad marriage so you could be with the one who felt right?? Oh, but I forget, he said he doesn't know if she's his soulmate, just that it feels right to be with her.

I'm broken, I'm ready for it to end. This rollercoaster has been too long a ride for me. It's beaten me to death & I'm ready to get off. But I won't be the one to leave. That's his to do. He doesn't want to be here, he can leave & the sooner the better.

Maybe I'll be celebrating my divorce on New Year's Eve. I sure hope so.

Thanks for listening.


Turn out the lights, the party's over!!!!!

Remember, this isn't really anything new. He's in and out, back and forth up and down all the time.

So what's new now? You finally being willing to set boundaries and take action? Don't let his actions determine yours. And don't wait for him to tortue you any more with his flip-flopping before you make your move. It's way past time to start protecting your heart and yourself.

Where's your Plan B letter? I'd make it short and sweet. And get him out of the house -- tell him since he made his choice, it hurts you too much to have him there, so it's time for him to leave. If he won't, then you leave. And do it quickly. As soon as you aren't living in the same place, then give him the Plan B letter and go pitch-black dark. Your daughter is old enough to arrange her own visits with him, so you won't have to get involved in that at all.

His R with OW will collapse. The question is if he's already done too much damage to ever be able to come back to you.

Yeah, you're right, it's not anything new. I talked to my MIL today. Sounds bad but she has been where I am & I can talk to her. Mind you, I don't trash her son to her. I talk about how I feel & what I want. She's the one who told him he had to quit breaking my heart. She told me he needs to stop now. I told her he has the divorce papers but didn't take them with him because he says he won't have time to file them. She says that's because he doesn't want a divorce. But she also understands that I can't take anymore. She told me that I may find out I'm better off without him, just as she found out the same about his bio father. But she says I need to concentrate on me, let him work his problems out & that he needs to stay away from me while he does it. That he shouldn't have anything to do with me or come back to me until he has a clear head.




Haven't gotten it written yet, but I have an idea of it in my head. One page & that's all




If he won't leave, I will. I did tell him that since he's made his choice, he needs to make things easy on me & leave. That his being here every day hurts too much. He says he has no where to go. Then it's "I need a couple days to find a place to stay." I told him I want him out of the house by the end of the day that he files the divorce. When he's gone or when I leave, it will be pitch, black dark. I've told him that he doesn't need me to arrange visits with the girls. I've told him I don't want to see, speak to, text message or hear from him in any way, shape, form or fashion once he's gone.

You know what he said last night?? So you're saying that if in 5 years I want to date you, we can't & won't. My answer, "Date? Maybe but maybe not. Ask me in 5 years."

What an a$$!!!



At this point, if he really showed me it was truly over with OW & he wanted a good marriage with me, I would take him back. But I have to have some kinda proof. She told a friend that she would take him back in a heartbeat, but she won't give up the men friends she's got & the first time he brought up something from the past & threw it in her face, she would drop him like a hot potato. My MIL says he needs to find out for himself that the R with OW will not last. MIL says she don't think it will last but he needs to see that & telling him won't cut it. I agreed with her & I'm at the point now of considering calling OW & begging her to take him back & get him out of my face. (probably not a good thing to do but I DO think about it.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)




Nope, not new. But I have made my move. I drew up the divorce papers for him & made it where he can file them without a lawyer. In our state, we can do a DIY divorce & it's cheaper than with a lawyer. I've verbally given him my boundaries. And I'm not gonna let him pull me down any further. I told his mom that I wasn't gonna move heaven & earth to help him with his job search only to have him walk away with OW when he finally gets a good job. Her words, I don't blame you, I wouldn't do it either.

But my MIL also knows I love him & she tells me she knows. She told me today that if she knew more about what was going on, she could talk to him some more. I sent her an email & I told her about the issues he mentioned to me that he has that are not about me. And they're not about her but she knows enough about them to talk to him about them.

At this point, only time will tell. I got up as usual & fixed his lunch today & saw him out the door. Force of habit? Maybe. But the more I ponder on this past weekend, the more I realize that we can't be in the same house together. At least not until he either gets his head & heart on the same page or divorces me & if he divorces me, I won't have to see him at all. Suddenly, that doesn't seem to be a bad thing!!!

Today I found out that OW will take WH back on these terms:
he can never bring up the past, especially not her past, in any way & he can never have anything to do with me ever, not even about our kids. She says he can see the kids as long as he doesn't see or talk to me. And he can never visit me.

Plus, it was on the news last night. They caught her jail escapee son in Oklahoma. He had a pregnant girlfriend with him who is now going to live with OW while she has the baby & OW sorts out his legal trouble. And he wants to be with THAT!!!

He did tell me the other night that she'd be worth the effort but he didn't know if she'd be worth the sacrifice.

If he finds out she said that, wonder what he'll think?

For now, I'm looking for someplace to move to temporarily. My MIL agrees that maybe I need to move out for a while, til he gets himself straightened out.

We'll see how things go. He wants me to go hunting this weekend. Maybe!!

I sure as H wouldn't move. Let him move in with OW and jailbird's GF and the baby. Your hubby is going through a fantasy or MLC. He needs a good dose of reality.

I would open the cage door (as in "Love Must Be Tough"), and let him go.

Then move on to a good life for yourself. Be sure to buy lots of popcorn to sit back and watch the coming train wreck.

I agree that it's not normally ideal for you to leave the house, but given that it's not likely that he will leave on his own (no matter how you "set him free"), and you are trying to sell the house, anyway, and your kids are older and can handle a transition pretty easily .... in this case I don't think it would be a bad thing for you to leave if he won't. Either way, do it fast. The sooner you can get into Plan B the better. And remember to keep up the spectacular Plan A until the moment you leave, so he wil have something to think about when you're gone.

You know that Plan B will mean you need to stop "hearing" about the OW, too, right? I think it's crazy that you know about her "conditions" for taking him back before he even does. You'll drive yourself nuts if you keep entrenching yourself with her. She's down in that pig slop right along with him -- get yourself OUT of that!!!

How about "You know, honey, I'm not waiting anymore for you to decide whether she's "worth the sacrifice". You've already chosen to sacrificed me, our marriage and our family. Now I get to choose, and I choose not to live in a threesome for one more second. It's time for you to leave."

And then if he won't leave, you do.

Your H seems pretty passive .... what do you think would happen if he came home and the locks were changed, with a couple of suitcases packed and sitting on the porch with a Plan B letter for him?

-AmI.

Well, I may not have to move after all. I found out this morning that the job in Ft. Worth is still on, his application has been submitted for a background check & they will tell him something by mid to late next week. If it comes through (& I think it will), he will be gone for 6 months, which is his probation period. I told him the other day I felt something big was just around the corner. I'd been emailing the HR lady for him about this job, he asked me to. I sent 10 emails since July 30. She had gotten none of them. I found that out by sending one to her last night & to my yahoo account, instead of my IP account. I never got it in my yahoo mail. So I copied & sent it from my yahoo account. She got it & told me that she hadn't gotten any of the earlier ones.

His mother is praying real hard that he gets the job. So am I.

So maybe he will be gone. When & if he gets the job & goes, I won't have any contact with him. The only way I will is if he lets me know he's made a decision & I know his mind & heart want the same thing. If we divorce, I will go for older men from now on. I don't want to go through another MLC ever in my life. I want a man who's already been through it & knows what he wants to do with his life!!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just an update.

WH has decided he just doesn't want to be married anymore, nothing to do with OW, just doesn't want to be committed to anyone. OK, fine. We can do a DIY divorce in this state. He has the papers, I signed the waiver so he won't have to have me served. He won't file for various & sundry reasons: don't want to be alone, don't want to spend the money, can't get off work in time to file, etc. I've offered to file the papers for him since I'm off tomorrow.

We are still waiting to hear about the job. I hope we hear today or tomorrow. Have an offer on the house but it's contingent on the buyers' house selling, if we take it.

WH admits he wants to be with someone else & would be happier with someone else. He's been really down & I found out why. He texted her about her son when he found out. She texted back that she was fine & appreciated his concern. Nothing more so he says that tells him she doesn't want him back & has moved on with her life. Severe withdrawal now since that message. MIL says he needs to go be by himself until he straightens his life out. I agree with her.

Financially, we're both strapped until this house sells. If he gets the job, he can afford a place for him to stay & still pay the house note until it sells. Finally got the insurance check & paid my car off but still owe a couple hundred on it. Driving a 91 Chevy Cavalier with almost 300,000 miles on it because I can't afford anything new right now.

Basically, I'm sitting here trying to figure out how I woke up, I'm 41 yrs old, last child soon to be out of the house & all the things I was looking forward to have been snatched out of my hands, leaving me with no plans on how to go on. I'm depressed. No insurance so now that I'm out of AD's, don't know what to do. Trying to make the best of a bad sitch.

I know I'm whining. But today I need to do that. Don't have a handbook to tell me how I'm supposed to act in this kinda sitch: divorcing but living together. When I answer marital status questions do I say married or separated/divorced? Doesn't want to tell friends until it actually goes through. Doesn't want to sit down & tell kids because he thinks they will hate him. I told him he could tell them that he just doesn't want to be married & that it doesn't have anything to do with OW. But everything to do with MLC. A friend told me that 23 years after she & her H married, he was 44, they went through the same thing, MLC & A with OW. She told me that if she had to do it all over again, she would've cut him loose sooner, not fought as long as she did to hang on. Their youngest was 12 & they were divorced 6 yrs before remarrying. They stayed connected because of the kids. We don't have that because our kids are grown. But since her H & my WH have basically the same personality (she & I have talked about how much they are alike), she advises to cut him loose now. She thinks he will be back, just like her's did, eventually.

My WH asked why I kept fighting to hang on. I told him that I'm not fighting to hang on anymore & haven't for a while. I'm fighting to let go, to give him the freedom he wants & learn to live with the freedom I'm getting. That I don't want this marriage to end. That I want a better life with him. He says he wants me to be happy & my comment was that if he really wanted that he would give me what I really want & not a divorce. I understand he can't give me that right now. He says he thinks I will be & he knows he will be, happier with someone else. I know different. I want him to move on until either he decides he can give me the marriage & life I want or I meet someone who does. I see that since that last text message, he is in deep withdrawal, because I think he really believes she won't take him back. She will but with conditions that I know he won't want to meet. Not my problem.

One of my BF's thinks that I'm crazy for continuing to take care of him knowing he's going to divorce me. But in my heart I know that the D can be continued for many months & can be stopped at any time. In my heart, I feel that the separation for the 6 months of his probation at this job, will be a good thing for both of us. He can be alone to work through his personal demons & get past the confusion of the MLC & I can be alone to repair the damage done by this whole soap opera I've been living in. I can't stop taking care of him as long as he's living with me. It's not only because I should because it's a good plan A, but also because I don't really know how to stop, I've done it for so long. The couple of things he don't let me do for him anymore, I miss doing. But I do other things that he will let me do.

Facing empty nest & divorce at the same time is no fun. It's hard for me to see the bright side when so much is dark right now. I had so many plans for my future after the kids were gone. And now that's all been taken away from me. I know I can go on without him, I'm just not sure how because so much of what I wanted was with him. I sure hope I don't wake up in another 2 or 3 yrs & I'm in MLC. If that happens, they might as well lock me up til I'm sane again.

I hope in 6 months I'm back here with a story of recovery. But if not, I know I can come here to chat, vent & cry with ya'll until I work my way through this nightmare.

Thanks for listening to me. For telling me your stories. For every little ounce of advice to help me through this. Thanks for being there.

(((((lost)))))

I'm so sorry.
Sounds like a pretty miserable place to be right now.

((((((hugs)))))))

I think everyone here can identify with the whole "How did I wake up with this as my life" feeling. Sux!


Hang in there.

-AmI.

I'm not convinced that you're having the intended Plan A effect, or even the effect that you think you're having.

I think that your Plan A has recently been sabotaged by all the crazy circular R talk and justifications that he gets you to buy into, and by your own pretty good case of floor-mat-itis. (I've had that a lot before -- it's pretty common.) Add to that the whole thing about handing him D papers and then even nagging him to get them filed .... I don't think any of that is going to give your the results you're looking for.


I think it's way past time for you to take some action for yourself and quit letting him and circumstances and everything else dictate what happens to you. He's SOOOOO good at dragging you down into the mud with him. You even justify it and defend him for it.

He's moping aroudn about his mistress, and treating you like dirt and being a jerk, and you defend him with "Withdrawl". He wants to D, but doesn't want anyone to know that it's because he's a jerk, so you cover up for him with the MLC excuse. He wants to "be free" one minute, so you let him go, and then he "doesn't want to be alone" so you give him a soft place to land ... letting him crush you in the process.

When does he have to face any consequences? When are you going to get yourself out of the misery wallow? Aren't you tired of all that yet?

I think that you should quit waiting on some possible potential job ... tell him he made his decision, he's continuing to hurt you, and you have decided not to allow it anymore, so it's time for him to leave! Now! And if he won't, then you will.

And if you want D papers filed, then I think you should stop waiting for him to decide if he's going to bother to file .... and just go do it yourself -- for youreslf, not as a favor to him (I don't quite get that).

Take away the excuses and justifications -- yours and his. Stand up and take some control. Why do you keep helping him destroy everything that you want to hold on to? And why do you want to help him cover up the destruction he's brought onto your family?

Get your support system in place, start talking to friends and family and everyone and let them know what's going on. Find somewhere to go until he gets out of the house and GO THERE. And get yourself into a good Plan B.

Otherwise, you're just helping him twist that knife deeper and deeper into your own chest.

Ouch!

-AmI.

AmI,



Probably not. But I'm keeping up with the changes I've made & doing for him the things he still likes me to do, such as getting up with him & fixing his lunch. I try to spend as much time with him as he will let me. I try not to bring up OW unless, like in the case of the news, I can't avoid it. Like I said once before, I'm only thinking about begging her to take him off my hands, I won't really do it. When I do something I didn't do before, if he comments I just look at him & say that this is how I am now & I'm not going to change back. I'm thinking he can live with it or leave.



I haven't nagged him about the D papers. I have sat down with him to divide up things & get our agreements about bills & stuff on paper, because without it being written down, it's verbal & agreement would be his word against mine. Those are his excuses I get when we sit down to discuss division of property.




Yeah, he's moping. But from what I've read here that is normal for a WS in withdrawal & that until he gets through that, we can't even begin recovery. The MLC excuse is because I've talked to so many people I know personally who've BTDT. I don't mean for it to sound like an excuse, it just seems to me to be a fact. And I guess I thought I was showing him that being with me was a good place to be. Funny how you see things differently when someone else draws the picture.

He has brought up things to me lately that give me reason to think he has some serious issues. There are things he's told me lately that show me that he has some deeply rooted problems that he's never brought out in the open & dealt with concerning his past, before I came along. I get the feeling that in the back of his mind, when he married me, he thought I would make the demons go away without him ever having to deal with them. Not a good thing to do, especially since he was helping me conquer my own demons at the time.

I've realized that we taught our DDs that they should never rely on anyone to make them feel good about themselves. That they should not worry about what others think, only what they think about themselves. My WH has been really good at getting that point across to them. They are good girls & will be good wives & mothers someday. They don't worry about anyone making them happy but depend on themselves to do what makes them happy. My WH & I didn't practice what we preached. Well, I eventually did but he never has. Seems he's always relied on someone else to make him feel good about himself. Shouldn't be that way.

Since I'm not qualified to pick his brain, he needs to find someone who can help him with that.




I'm not covering it up. HE doesn't want anyone told but I'm telling everyone anyway. When he said something to me about it, I told him I wasn't going to lie about it & the truth needed to be out anyway. Why pretend everything's ok when it's not. He's the one who won't tell anyone. I tell everyone I talk to.




You're probably right about that. Some days I think I do pretty good. Then some days I think the reality sets in with me & I go back to being a floor mat.

Most of my problem today is realizing that my DD#2 will soon be gone. She won't need me as much as she used to. And I'm realizing that all the things I was looking forward to when she was gone, that I thought would help me not feel so empty, has been taken away. All the dreams I had of finally having alone time with my H, something we've not had much of in our marriage, are not to be. Our first year of marriage, I was 17 & still in high school, was hectic. I was finishing school, we had bills to pay, he was the only one working, 4 months into our marriage I got pregnant with DD#1 & there was no time or money for us to do things as a couple. That's what I was so looking forward to was the chance for couple time, for us to re-connect & do all the things we wanted to do when we first got married.

Like I said, I'm feeling depressed & whiny today. Needed someplace to do that so I don't do it at home to DD or WH.




I'm doing that. I'm looking for a place to live. My BF is a realtor & she's trying to help me find some place I can afford. But I'll do better after the house sells & I have some money to deal with bills & things. Now that football season's over, I can get a second job to get some of my debt paid off. I wanted to wait til then because this is DD#2's senior year & I didn't want to miss a single game she performed in. Due to my boss having surgery, I had to miss her performance at a state contest. It seems to be all piling up on me this week.

I've accepted the fact he wants a D. I'm learning to live with that. But, it seems to me, that all of a sudden the roof's falling in. Probably because of my running out of ADs & can't get anymore.

And it seems that the more I accept the D & discuss it calmly like an adult with him, the more it bothers him & he seems to want to put it off. His mother says she's seen people, men & women, in the same state of confusion he's seems to be in. And some have not had A's, just didn't know what they wanted, which says MLC to her also. Or as she calls it, "the change of life". I know now why she only went for older men after she divorced my WH's bio father. The next man I date will be at least 10 years older than me. And if I think he's in a MLC & that's why he's dating me, I'll drop him like a hot potato. Ain't going through this again EVER!!!! As for WH, just because he's giving me excuses & justifying his problems, doesn't mean I'm buying into them. That's just what he's saying, I keep telling him that we can have a good marriage if we both work on it. And something that's recently started is his telling me all the good things he does see in me, what he likes about me, even to telling me that maybe I do make him happy but he's just to dumb to see it. He thanks me for things I do for him. And I copied something from NZgirl's thought for the day about God speaking to us in the silence. He put it in his billfold so he can see it every time he opens it. When his mother talks to him, she thinks he's not listening but something always sticks in his brain. He'll talk to me about it & I know then that something someone has said has gotten through to him & given him something to think about.

Thanks for the hugs. I really needed them. I know it doesn't look much like I'm trying. But I'm trying harder that you know not to let this pull me down. Some days are better than others. Today was not one of those better days. I've been blue since I got up this morning. I look forward to tomorrow being better.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you aren't trying!! It does look like you're trying, in fact, it usually looks like you're kicking and swimming with all your might! I just worry sometimes that you start swimming yourself deeper into more hurt than towards the surface. It's pretty easy to get turned around when there's a crazy WS talking you in circles. And he's pretty adept at talking in circles!!

That's why I think it's so important for you to find a way to get into Pan B in a huge hurry and not wait on circumstances (someone else's house to sell so yours can sell, H's job, football season, bills, whatever) to line up and "get you there". Did you ever read Rin's thread? For a long time, she and her two boys all shared one guest bedroom at a friend's house, just so she could get away from her STBX. I think your H and his rollercoater are just adding to your depression, hurt, defeated-ness ..... and thatif it goes on too much longer, you're just going to end up completely ground into dust, with no love left for him and no strength left for yourself.


I'm not trying to lecture you -- I'm not enough of a pro to be able to do that -- I'm just worried about you.

-AmI.

Thanks! I need someone to worry about me right now. And sometimes, when I go back & read what I've posted, I think I'm not trying very hard.

Sooooooo, here goes.

Friday, 11-9-07, WH filed for divorce. I was off work so, in order to get this over with, I took the papers to the courthouse with the money & filed them.

Am I good with that??? NO!!! I'm not good with it. I don't want this. I've had a sick feeling since Friday. It won't go away. I've been told by many people I know who've been through D, that when it's filed, you feel either relieved or sick. If it's the right thing to do, you're relieved, like a big weight has been lifted off your shoulders. If it's not the right thing to do, you feel sick. I feel sick because I know it's not the right thing for me. WH was sick to the point of throwing up Friday, but in typical WS fashion, he blamed it on something going around. He doesn't know if he feels good or bad about the D. People he's asked say you never feel good about D. But I haven't met anyone who thought that. I was crying when he got home Friday & he asked me if I was ok. I told him no, I was not ok & I was not good with this, that it's happening because he wants it & not because I want it. It's about him not me. He hugged me while I cried & I told him again I don't want this.

My MIL made the suggestion that we rent out our house until it sells. That way we can get out from under the payments & separate. I discussed that with him Friday evening. It's a viable alternative to living together until it sells. He thinks maybe it would be a good idea so I called my realtor BF & told her. She also thought it would be a good idea.

I told him that we needed to do it that way because we needed to not be in the same house. He agreed.

We talked about the kids. He talked about how we raised the kids to understand that we knew they had to make & learn from their own mistakes. He said if this is his mistake, he has to make it & learn from it. He also said that if he doesn't feel good about the D in January, when it's due to be heard by the judge, he will postpone it for a while. That will also be his choice. And he agreed that if (I said when) he came back to me, it would be because he was ready to do whatever it took to make it work & to make things right between us. I told him that was the only way I would ever take him back.

In 3 weeks, on 11-29, I will be 42 years old. My baby is graduating high school this year & making plans to move on with her life. All the plans I had for my life have been snatched out of my hands. Everything I looked forward to is gone. I had plans to re-connect with my H, do the things we never got to because we've always had kids, spend couple time with him, start doing things I've not been able to do before now. We'd been married 4 months when I got pregnant with DD#1. I'm not dealing very well with empty nest & suddenly single life. I knew I could handle it with my H by my side. But now I don't have that. The world looks very scary right now. I hate the thought of dating again.

But, I would like to find someone who's not looking for a serious relationship right now. Someone I can have fun with until I get past the wanting my H back. Someone who'll treat me like a lady, hold doors for me, give me a hug without me having to ask for one. But not right away.

My DD#2's last half-time performance with the flag corp was Friday night. I sat with WH, watched & smiled with tears streaming down my face. It's so hard watching her, filled with life & fun & seemingly unaffected by knowing it's her last year in high school. Wish I could be the same way.

I'm having a hard time deciding what to do with the rest of my life. Can't seem to figure out what to do now that all my plans have changed. And yet, WH seems to be unaffected by all this. As if it's no big thing to walk out of my life after 25 years. I wish I could be that way.

My MIL tells me that I'll be alright. I know she's right, but it doesn't help the hurt. WH told me he needed to find out who he is & what makes him tick & he needs to be un-attached to do it. Because of some of the things he's asked me about God, my MIL says he's running from God. She told me that God will only allow that so long & then He won't mess with you anymore until you come back to Him. She could be right. She's been through a lot in her life. She understands how I feel because she's been where I'm at. She did tell WH that I've not trashed him to her, like he thought.

He left Friday night to go to the deer lease. I've not heard from him since he left. It almost feels like he's not coming back. I almost hope he won't. I know it's not my place to ask why this is happening to me. I keep reminding myself that there's a reason for everything & God never gives us more than we can handle. But I still wish I had a crystal ball so I could see the future. I'd feel better knowing how things turn out.

Lost,

Would you consider that you feel sick because of your choice to take the money and the papers and file them?

Would you feel differently if you hadn't made that choice?

LA

LA,



No & No. I've been feeling kinda sick since he decided to D me. I haven't tried to talk him out of it because I know I can't reason with him. I also know that I can't live with him until the D is final.

I wouldn't feel differently because my sanity is at stake right now. I'm going crazy trying to deal with all of this. Some friends of mine, whom I think very highly of, have BTDT & have told me that if he's decided to go ahead with it, don't let him drag it out. If he wouldn't file then do it for him. Because if I don't, he will continue to make excuses & put it off until I'm in a rubber room.

He has a hard time understanding how I feel. I sent him a text message Thursday. It said,"I've been thrown into the depths of ****** where I'm drowning in a sea of insanity." It's a pretty good description of how I feel.

I feel like I've been on the world's roughest roller coaster. It's beat me to death til I'm battered & bruised from head to toe. I want to get off now. I'm tired, I'm hurt, I'm scared & I'm frustrated.

I think sometimes he really does try to understand. But then the fog drops back down & he's the WH again. I hope I don't wake up at 44 or 45 yrs old & wonder why I'm where I am. Wake up confused as to where I want my life to go. I don't think I will. Many people told me that since I got married at 17, I would be the one who would get tired of marriage & want the single life I missed out on. I've never felt that way. I've never missed anything.

No, I'm sick because I know, after much prayer, that this is not what I want. I filed in February & dismissed it in April because I knew in my heart that God did not want me to go through with it. I don't think this is what He wants for me now. But I'm trying to get through this. I'm sick because I still love him & want a life with him.

My opinion? I think he was sick because it's not what God wants him to do. But he has to find that out for himself. I think that's also why he don't know how he feels about it. My BF told me that when she finally filed, it was a relief because her H had pushed her to the point that she had no love left for him. Another friend of mine said the same thing. When the love is truly gone & D is the right decision, there is a big feeling of relief. I still love my H & I think that's why I'm sick & not relieved.

But this has all been about his selfish needs. None of this is about me. I know what I want, who I want in my life & where I want to go. But if I have to go on alone, I will have to take another path in life.

I didn't have a good weekend.

I'm really down right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

In my heart, I don't want this D. In my heart, it's not the right thing for me. I still love him.

But this is not about me. It's about WH. What he wants, what he thinks is best for him.

The house is now for sale or rent, whichever comes first. Hopefully rent, so we can move out. It's too painful being in the same house with him every day. I don't think he understands or cares.

He doesn't want us to tell the girls about the D because he thinks it's none of their business. We're about to tear their family apart & it's none of their business????<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I just needed to get these words out of my head for now.

oh, (((((((lost)))))))

I'm sorry.

Those days are awful.

He's made his choices, now it's your turn to make your own choices. You get to decide what your goals are and what you want, you don't have to play along with him.

If you don't want the D, then you don't have to cooperate with it.

And him not wanting to tell the girls doesn't mean you have to keep this painful truth to yourself. He doesn't get to decide what you tell the girls. Your choice whether to share the truth of their situation with them or not. I'm in for sharing truth, I believe it's important for people to know the truth so that they are able to make their own choices.

I think that renting out the house is a great idea. You said it's too painful being in the house with him -- do you have anywhere else you can stay for a little while? Take away some of that pain?

Are there any clubs or organizations that you can get involved with to help distract you a little bit? What aobut a DivorceCare class? (I took one, we didn't D, but the class was HUGELY beneficial to me anyway -- taking the class does not mean that you WILL neccessarily D. But it will help you find some friends who are in a similar situation.)


I don't have any good advice, but it seems like a good IRL support system is in order right now, including your DD's, whether he likes it or not.


Hang in there.

-AmI.

AmI,

Thanks for the hug. I needed that.

I will tell the girls. They deserve to know. And my MIL is a big help when I talk to her. I'm trying to get my Plan B letter down on paper so I can give it to him when he leaves.

Meanwhile, I know OW is still waiting for him. Nothing confirmed except that she knows about the D. He had to tell her because no one else would. But she is making sure she has plenty of fun in the meantime. And she's braver than I am, meeting strangers off the internet. Oh well!!

I've been invited to a friend's for Thanksgiving & a trip to the zoo with her & her DS (he's 16 mnths) on the Friday after. I may take her up on it. I need to get out of town & she lives about 4 hours away.

We'll see.

How does it make you feel to know so much about the OW? You know that Plan B means that you will need to have NC with her, too, right? Including not getting reports about her life and what she's doing, etc. Where are you getting all this info, anyway? Is it really helpful, or is it distracting? For me, I wouldn't have done well knowing all this stuff. I had enough to deal with just trying to stay sane myself and not kill my H during that horrible still living together time.

It amazes me that she thinks someone who will abandon his wife and family is such a prize that she'll "wait" for him -- and that he thinks she's such a prize that he'll abandon his family for her, but doesn't care that she's still "cheating" on him in the meantime. Yuck.


How did your girls react? I think you're smart to teach them not to allow a man to treat them this way. It's too bad that their dad is trying to teach them that it's ok.

The Thanksgiving plan sounds good. What are you going to do for the actual Thanksgiving day? Could be a great chance for Plan B to really take some effect for him -- realizing he has no family around him for the holiday because of his choices. Can you be in Plan B by then?

How are you doing today?

Thinking of you!

-AmI.

I'm sorry, lost.


A good time to go to Plan B - while you still have some love left. And you don't have to lift a finger for the D. Let your WH do the work. Why you did the filing of *his* papers would be a very good question for you to explore.


A divorce is about the whole family. Your H is making everything about him because he is still completely wayward and self-centered.


This proves how out of touch he is with anyone but himself. Of course you have to tell the girls.

Do try not to dwell on the OW. She's not worth your valuable time. You're getting good advice from AmiOk.

Take care.

PK

I don't really feel bad about it. And, yes, when Plan B starts I will have NC with her, too. I won't ask & I'm getting that info because I ask. I don't know if it's helpful except that I know she's waiting on him to an extent.

As far as the girls go, we haven't told them yet. WH has agreed to tell them together. He has also told me that he will move to his mother's & live in the camper. Which will be good for us. It won't cost him alot to live there, just water & electricity which won't be much. And maybe being where he can talk to her will be good for him.

Thanksgiving. Well, I got a call from DD#1 this morning. We are going to have Thanksgiving supper together, just the 4 of us. The girls want it & so do we. I think it might be good. Then when he moves to his mother's, Plan B goes into effect. I can handle that.

Probably wasn't advisable, but we had a long talk about lots of things last night. I talked to him about my EA from 21 yrs ago. Well, WH says PA because I did kiss the guy. Don't remember his name or what he looked like now. But when I realized then that I was getting attached to someone who was not my husband, it only lasted 3 weeks, I backed off, NC & stayed with my WH. He did find out about it, 4 months after it was ended. He's never gotten over that. But I was being completely honest with him about all of it that I could remember. And suddenly my parents came into it, WH telling me that I'd better let my parents know, since they can't stand him for cheating on me, that I'm no saint & did the same to him many years ago. I just looked at him & asked how my parents came into a conversation that was strictly about us. I know they never accepted him like they accepted my SIL. But I never needed their approval. And I still won't. I'm the one who will have to live with whoever I choose to have in my life, long after they're gone. I want someone who meets my approval.

Some things came out on my side & his. Things that we hadn't really talked about before. And I think we did this to clear the air. My parents approval is apparently something that he can't put in the past, & part of it is probably because of his guilt. He has a lot of rage & hatred against his bio father, which he thinks he won't be able to let go of until his father dies or he confronts him. And he may be right. These are his demons & he needs to let them go.

The D came up & I told him that for me D was not the right thing to do & not what I wanted. He asked if it was right for him & I told him I couldn't answer that, only he could. I said that if it wasn't right for him, he would know & if it was a mistake, he would have to make it & learn from it.

It came out how hurt he is by OW. She told him when he came home to me that she would never love anyone else & he told me how much it hurt that she was with someone else. I didn't get angry. I only told him that I understood that hurt because he had told me that he would never love anyone like he loved me & then he did. His reply was he was glad I understood that hurt. He doesn't want her to know about the D, or anyone else for that matter. He doesn't want anyone to know until it's finalized. Says anything can happen in 2 months. I don't think it will change anything but who knows.

He told me that he wanted me to find someone who would treat me right & be good to me, that he thinks I will be happier without him. I told him that I don't believe I'll be happier without him because I don't want to D him. But if any man I find, mis-treats me, he will make their life a living He[[. But he hopes that anyone I find, Decker (our wienie dog) bites him in the b*[[s!! I thought that was funny. A hint of jealousy that he won't admit to.

We didn't argue & any time he told me he needed this D, I just told him I believed we could have a good marriage & I didn't want the D. He did say that he hoped we eventually got back together & that when & if we did, we were both different people.

I wonder if confronting his bio father now, while he's still living, would help him lay that demon to rest. He does carry a lot of anger over him. The story's very long & involved.

We talked about God & how to know when He's talking to you. He asked me what I would say if he told me, hypothetically, that God told him to D me. I said I would ask how he got that answer. That turned into a lot of hypothetical questions & answers. I told him that I believe, me personally, that God doesn't talk to you like we were talking to each other. That my reluctance to do something or my feeling that I was making a mistake, was how God told me I was doing the wrong thing. When he told me that God was destroying his life, I told him I didn't believe that. That we destroy our own lives, God gave us free will & we can choose to go against what He wants. I asked him if he felt he'd been abandoned by God or if he felt he'd become disconnected from God. He thought about it & said he didn't know & I said no more, leaving it for him to think about. This thing about God seems to be him warring with himself about his faith. Something he'll also have to resolve on his own. I'm just giving him things to think about.

I know, a long post. But I felt good after we talked last night. I didn't LB, didn't tell him how he felt, just asked him his thoughts & feelings. Repeated to him what he'd said so I would understand. It went well. Except for the death thing. It came out again that he won't be alive for long & for me to keep that in mind. Wouldn't say he wanted to commit suicide but just to remember what he said about him dying. I don't know what to make of that.

I'm trying to keep my chin up. Trying to get through these next 60 days. Hoping it'll all turn out well as soon as we separate. Wouldn't it be nice sometimes, if we could turn love on & off like a faucet? It would sure help the hurt, I think.

pk,

Thanks.



I think I did it because he is working long hours & can't get to the courthouse. Because I think he's pretty set on it right now that it's what he wants. I'm fighting an uphill battle that, at this point in time, I can't win. And I think I maybe did it so he would see that I tried to be cooperative, so that when he looks back he will see me being nice & not turning it into a nasty fightl. I guess I think it might make me look good to him right now. It can be dismissed anytime & delayed for as long as need be. Texas is a no-fault state so 60 days & it's done. I know that I'm not the one filing. It's in his name & he paid the money. That way I know I'm not going against my heart. But if it being filed helps him in some way, then I'm glad to do it for him. I'm thinking also that maybe with the papers being filed, it will get him on out the door somehow, & I can start Plan B. And I think Plan B is where I need to be right now.



Yes, he is. I realized when we talked last night, that he'd never really started withdrawal until he found out she was seeing someone else. He says it hit him then how much he loved her & he'd been telling himself that he didn't care for her that much. He also told me that he'd told her once that he'd take back everything that had happened if he could just be friends with her again. But he says he can't do that. I told him that once you cross that line, you can never go back to being friends. He still thinks he can but realizes she can't. He's slowly coming to that on his own.



Other than filing the papers, I have no intention of doing anything else. It's all on his back now. He'll have to call for a court date & go before the Judge. And he'll have to keep up with when it will have to be done.

I did notice when we talked last night, that every time I seemed to get close to the truth about something or hit a nerve about how he thinks or feels about something, he would get sarcastic & kinda mad. Something I've learned from our years together is he does that when he don't want to admit the truth to me or look at himself & see his own wrong in something. His mother pointed that out to me several years ago.



You're so right. I'm just having a hard time not thinking about her, knowing that the D is filed & she's waiting for him. I'm hoping that with him out of the house, it will help.

Thanks for keeping in touch & thinking about me. Keep thinking good thoughts for me.

Guess what???

Got the call yesterday. He's been offered the job in Ft. Worth. But he's not going to take it. He gave stupid excuses.

He talked to OW 30 minutes on Monday & I know he called her yesterday. I asked when he talked to her last & he said he wouldn't answer that question. I told him that was answer enough.

I think he's finally accomplished what he set out to do. I beginning to think I don't love him anymore. It's either that or I'm having a breakdown.

I told him I wish he respected me enough to move away & let my heart heal. We had sex last night. Totally spontaneous. I read nothing into it except that he seemed to care a little. It was good & I thanked him for that. This morning I told him again I appreciated last night but I wish he would take that care & stop forcing me to watch him love someone else. He says I'm not asking too much & he knows I'm not enjoying watching it.

I found him a place to move to. He could live in the camper & just pay electric, which would be about $50 to $100 a month. Not much & that would be all the rent required. Says he won't go. Maybe I will.

I can't hold on any longer. I need time off & I can't take it right now. Boss is out sick & I'm holding down the fort. I need time alone to heal. I wish I could go live in a cave for awhile until it all passes.

I want to run away from the world for awhile. They say that when he can't hurt me anymore, the love is dead. He can still hurt me but I'm losing my mind. I'm losing me.

I never dreamed the man I married could turn out so cruel. But he's not the man I married. I know that. But why does he think I deserve to be totally destroyed??

He won't go???????? He is the one deserting the marriage, he really SHOULD go.

Yeah, he should. But to save what's left of me, I have to go.

I'm really losing it. They could come for me today with a straight jacket & I'd hold out my arms & say, "Let's go, I'm ready."

They could lock me away for months & I wouldn't care right now.

Oh (((Lost))), I feel your pain. I'm in Texas too. I did the same thing you did, I actually typed up our divorce papers and my husband paid and filed. The difference is I named myself as petitioner so I was able to non-suit it before it was finalized.

I am concerned that you signed a waiver. Was it a waiver of service only? Are you sure? Because sometimes a waiver is a waiver of your right to be notified of any hearing dates and basically saying, give him what he wants. If that's the case, he can put anything in the final decree.

I really wish that you hadn't filed but what's done is done.

I'm hoping that you didn't just file thinking that it would "wake him up." I'm hoping it doesn't backfire on you. By his filing, he's in the driver's seat.

The only out you have at this point is if he never follows up and the court dismisses it for "want of prosecution". He WILL have to present a final decree for the Judge to sign.

Do I understand correctly that you guys are not using an attorney? If that's the case, DON'T help him with anymore of the paperwork if you don't want the divorce.

You REALLY need to get into a strong dark Plan B however you can so you can begin healing and he can experience life without you.

(((Lost)))

pm,

Thanks for your concern.



Yes, it's a waiver of service & I agreed not to be notified of the hearing. But I'm the one typing up the final decree that we both have to sign. So it will be by mutual agreement.

I believe that if he'd take this job in Ft. Worth, our marriage has a chance. I can Plan B & be alone. But it seems he's gonna turn it down for the second time. Dumba$$ move, I know.

A job that pays more than $20/hour, insurance, benefits, retirement & he's gonna pass. And he thinks I'm stupid.



No, I didn't file it as a way to wake him up. I did it to save myself. I hope it doesn't backfire either. By that I mean I'm hoping he will move out so I can Plan B. I know filing for D won't wake him up. It didn't the first time so why would it now?

I just want a little peace so my heart can heal.

Oh lost, you must realize that you cannot make your H do anything. All you can do is control what you do - make a plan and stick to it.

I think that you should visit a lawyer to discuss your options. You are living with an actively wayward spouse, which is a dangerous proposition from a financial perspective. You need to be protected. I think you should also begin crafting your Plan B letter. What you should NOT do is to move out of your house. Don't let your emotions run the show.

PM is posting to you. Please listen to her regarding legal matters.

At this point, I would not lift a finger to assist your H in anything divorce-related. I would be hesitant to help him with anything, period. He does not seem to have your interests in mind. He needs to feel what it is to be without your support, which has been considerable. Supporting him is draining your lovebank and exhausting you emotionally. Something's got to give. Don't let it be you.

Take care.

PK

(((((((lost)))))))

He really seems to be sabotaging himself quite a bit .... lose his job, won't take another one, won't go to OW, won't leave ..... sounds like he's crashing pretty hard. I wonder what his "bottom" will be. Seems like he's got to be coming up on it pretty soon.



TOTALLY agree!!!!!

Even if it means you moving into the trailer for a while. Any bites on getting the house rented? In the papers you guys filed, who gets the house? If he won't leave on his own, I guess you could try to force him out legally, ask for a temporary order regarding use of the house .... I'm not sure that is the best move right now, though.

Your DD is still living in the house, right? At her age, she probably doesn't take much "caring for", but definitely needs the parenting. would she go to the trailer with you if you left? Or would your H be able to do the parenting that she needs? What about CS when one of you moves out?

One of the things SH told me to do when I was at this same point, pulling my hair out and bouncing off the walls, was to really, really detach as much as possible. He said to Plan A the kids, and keep interaction with my H as minimal and as arm-length as possible. Distant and polite as necessary, but try to minimize the amount of neccessary. No discussions, no meeting needs other than those that got incidentally met by taking care of the kids, etc. He even told me to try not to know when my H was coming or going. At the time, my H was blatantly carrying on his A, pretty much rubbing it in my face, and also wouldn't move out. It was a really awful time, and SH's suggestion was just a way to get through -- it's not a replacement for Plan A or B.

So it might help you a little. It's at least a little less crazy-making if you aren't trying to figure out when or if he's talked to her, where he is or isn't, what he is going to do, when, etc.

Might help you get through without ending up in a rubber room, at least for the very, very short term.

Hang in there. I'm sorry that you're going through this!

-AmI.

How's it going, lost?

Hey, lost.

Checking in.

How are you doing? What are you doing? How was Thanksgiving?

Thinking about you!

-AmI.

Hey, everyone!


Thanks for checking on me. I'm here but with the holidays haven't had time to get online.

Here's an update.

HOORAY!!!!! He took the job. He starts Dec. 10. We went this past Sunday to Ft. Worth & found him a place to put the camper. He's nervous & keeps trying to back out, but I don't think he will. OW is already making plans to go up there.

I have my plan B letter pretty much written. He'll find it his first night up there. I'm putting it in the bathroom cabinet in the camper.

DOUBLE HOORAY!!!!! After all this time, I found a bank to re-finance the house at payments that are more affordable. I take it as a sign from God that I'm not supposed to sell. We had an offer, but it didn't feel right to me. And the payments will be low enough that if I do go to Ft. Worth with him eventually, we can rent it out until we retire back here.

Don't have much time right now to say more than that. Will try to get on tonight.

Thanks everyone. Hope ya'll all had a good Thanksgiving. I'll be back soon!!

Bump for Lost!

Update please!

Okay!! I finally found my thread!!

Here's my update. WH left for Ft. Worth on Dec. 8. He talked to OW the night before. I found out & we talked about it. He tried to back out right up to the last minute.

I tried NC but we had to talk some about the bills. Sometimes good & sometimes bad.

On January 13, at 6:30am I got a call from OW telling me she was gonna call WH & break it off with him, she has someone new in her life. She asked me to go to him (he was in a motel in a nearby town) & like a dumbA I went. He lost it, scared everyone with suicide threats, blah, blah, blah. He didn't go to work or call in the following day so almost lost his job. One more write-up & he's gone.

He called me later the following week & asked me to come up there to visit & so we could talk. Then he changed his phone number 3 days later & didn't give it to me. He finally texted & gave it to me, saying he didn't want her to have it. But he's since texted her & she now has it except I hear she's changing her number because he won't leave her alone. I went to Ft. Worth on Jan. 25th. We had a good weekend together, talked alot of things out & I thought things would work out. He even talked about me moving up there & working for the same company. Not so. He can't get over her.

So we finally got the house re-financed & we sign the papers this coming Monday.

He's still convinced he loves her & won't ever get over her. But I did send him the book "Surviving an Affair" & he's reading it finally. I never could get him to read it before.

But now someone is telling him I'm seeing someone (which I'm not). Don't know how to handle that because it seems to make him angry. Monday, before 7am, he started texting me about how he doesn't know how long he can stay there, he has no motivation because what he wants (OW) is gone, etc, etc. I told him not to whine to me about her anymore. That I have never cried to him about losing a man I should never have had a relationship with in the first place (in reference to my EA 21 yrs ago). That ticked him off. I told him he was turning to me like he would a best friend & I didn't want to hear it.

So now I'm wondering what to do. I have gone without contacting him & then the side that loves him takes over & answers or texts him. Our divorce won't be final until May or June, when he is off job probation & can take off to go to court.

I let him come home for christmas & I shouldn't have but he acted like he really wanted to be there & was so good to everyone. I found out when I went to visit him, that he'd even gotten a phone up there so he could call her without my knowing about it. He cancelled the account when she broke it off.

Go ahead, hit me with the 2X4's. I deserve them. But I've gotten to a point that I'm not desperate to see him & I'm not even sure I want him back. But sometimes, like with valentines day coming up, I miss him very much & realize that I still love him. Kinda sad, huh?