Okay. This is probably a dumb question & if this is the wrong place to post, let me know. I figured I'd post here since this thread deals with his establishing NC & deciding to work it out with me.

Last night, I went to kiss WH. All I've gotten in the last few months are short pecks. I asked when I would get a real kiss & he said when he felt like giving one. So, dummy me, asked if he hadn't felt like giving one since last Thursday, when he decided he wanted to save our marriage. He said no because he doesn't think he really cares for or wants to kiss like that ever again. I asked about SF. He said he doesn't really care for that either & don't think he really needs or wants to have SF anymore. I asked if he wasn't attracted to me that way & he said he doesn't think it's me, he thinks it's him. I said I hoped he wouldn't always feel that way. He threw this in my face, "Why not, you said you could live with it or without it, so why not?" I said I wanted to have SF with my husband, I don't really want to live that way for the rest of my life.

Yeah, I know, bop me with a 2X4. This is normal, right? I should expect this until withdrawal ends, right?

lost, you're not the one I'd like to bop with a 2x4. I think that you're showing an enormous amount of strength in dealing with a really [email]cr@p[/email] situation.

Some of your H's comments certainly sound like withdrawal speaking. And depression is a component of withdrawal, so the lack of interest in SF/kissing/touch is to be expected.

But there is an edge to his words, at least as you relay them, almost a desire to hurt you:


Or perhaps he is challenging you, to test the depth of your commitment to recovery. Of course he is really in no position to do so, being the transgressor, but he is probably not seeing things in that light. Some will call it foggy, I prefer the word self-absorbed.

It sounds like you are handling things very well. My opinion is that a BS faced with this situation has to decide on certain boundaries, ie, how long he/she will put up with a lack of affection from the FWS before deciding that this is no way to live. And of course, NC must be iron-clad in place so that withdrawal can occur, and hopefully lessen over time.

PK

pk,

I thought it may be withdrawal speaking. It's only the SF & kissing. As far as touch goes, he does that alot, especially at night in bed. He is taking his AD now because I put his meds in a daily box so he won't forget anything.

I know Dr. Harley says withdrawal can last at least 6 months. It's only been a week since NC was established so I know he hasn't had time to really get started on it. But before he came to his senses last week, SF didn't seem to be a problem for him. It's happened a few times since he came home in May.

I guess I'm wondering why he seems to suddenly feel that way when he has finally decided he loves me. Though I wonder if he loves me as a wife or more like a sister.

Just needed a little lift. He's affectionate in all other ways, & kisses are frequent just quick ones though. We are back to sleeping with some part of our bodies touching all night long. Guess I just needed someone to validate what I'm feeling about this today.


ps what is POS? Got all the others but not this one.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Have I posted this newest question in the right place?

I think this question should have been somewhere else.
Please let me know where & I will move it there.

I guess maybe he is testing to see if I overreact or get mad & start an argument. I think I did pretty good. I didn't get mad or cry or anything. Just looked at him & then went on with what I was doing before.

He has to remind me occasionally that I'm getting that tone in my voice. When he does, I back off. I'm trying so hard to stop the fighting.

Since last Thursday, he hasn't said anymore about feeling guilty about the suicide & that he feels he owes her because of it. I think that a comment made by someone saying she was also responsible because she knew her W/BH was mentally unstable, helped him understand his part in this whole awful mess.

Until this, I'd never known of anyone around here who had a hit man involved because of an A. At the time it happened it was almost surreal, almost like a bad dream. I hope I never go through that again.

I think it's time to buckle in, lost. Your roller coaster is not over with, and there will probably be a lot of things for a while that are pretty tough. And I wouldn't expect him to be very nice or accomodating, either.

From what I've been told, some of this kind of slogging through the mud is to be expected in a non-Plan B recovery. That often the WS feels very noble for making the very huge sacrifice of stopping their A and deigning to stay. They didn't have to jump very high or meet any conditions to get back in; in fact, they just sort of slunk over the door mantle and still have a foot out the door ... and they are expecting a parade and the key to the city for their monumental effort.

And the BS has to figure out how much they are willing to put up with. And may end up stuck in the mud, just accepting whatever the WS bothers to offer.

That's where we were for a very, very long time. Several months after the A was over, we were still slogging through mud and grayness .... sometimes kind of leaning towards recovery, sometimes not .... it wasn't fun. It wasn'te easy. I told myself it was better than the A, but it really wasn't what I wanted, either. And needs met???? I never even thought that was possible.

If I had been better at setting boundaries, deciding on my own expecations, doing my part better than just going along with whatever he'd give .... it might have been easier.

Buckle up and keep your cool. Keep Plan A'ing, but don't forget the message that it's possible for you two to have a great M, and that's what you want.

I don't use that particular acronym, but it's a favorite of some. Since profanity is verboten here, you won't find it in the list. Think scatalogical, ie, Piece Of...S

AmIok gave you some good advice. I would do some research on the concept of personal boundaries, since you cannot change your H's behavior, you can change only your reaction to it.


You must start to define what you will accept and what you will not - and be sure to clue your H in to your definitions. You will have to lead the way in recovery, lest you end up aimlessly circling the same territory, never making any headway. This is what will happen if you use your H's actions as a guide in recovery; he's not capable of leading you anywhere - yet. In time that may change.

You're posting things in the right place. If you want, you can always start a new thread that addresses the issue of boundaries, either here or in the Recovery section.

PK

AmIok,

I need the buckles & over the shoulder bars. This weekend sucked. And since I know OW sent him a text Monday, which he didn't answer, I feel like I'm back to square one. But the good thing is he didn't answer.




Yeah, he told me yesterday that he stayed with me because he had a commitment to me that he felt he should honor. That he loved me sometimes & that he was happy with me sometimes. Whatever!!




But things did get better, right? I guess I'm so impatient because I want things to get better now. I'm trying to curb that impatience but it's hard.

When we were talking yesterday, I told him that when he told me he had to make it work because he wanted to, I really believed him & thought he really knew what he wanted. He told me he did mean it at the time he said it. I don't want to keep pretending things are hunky-dory if they're not. I don't want him to be nice to me unless he wants to, not because he feels sorry for me or feels he has to. SF makes me feel like a hooker who doesn't get paid. He won't look at me, barely touches me & nothing else happens either. We talked about that. He has no interest in that & doesn't want that from me anymore. Says he can do without that for the rest of his life. I told him that's not what I want. That I want 100% of a good marriage with him.



In the beginning, how did you talk to yours about what you wanted & expected? How did you talk to him about what you wanted to do for recovery? Do I wait until withdrawal is over & discuss it or do I bring it up now? Do I wait until he is completely out of the fog, knows what he wants without changing his mind every day, all while Plan A'ing my behind parts off?





I'm still Plan A'ing. I won't stop that. And I do keep telling him we can have a better marriage than before, a great one. Yesterday he told me he doesn't know if that's what he wants. Thanks for the advice, AmIok. I appreciate your help with this. Listening to you gives me some hope.




pk,

Thanks!! I wasn't sure & now I get it, LOL!!





Do I do this now, before he's completely through withdrawal?

I hope it does change. I'm so ready for this to all be over & things to get better. I did tell him yesterday that I didn't like pretending everything was ok when it's not. That pretending didn't make it so & it wouldn't just go away if we acted like it didn't happen.

Sometimes I feel like I'm on a merry go round that keeps speeding up, I'm dizzy & I can't get off. But I know that if I don't hang on, I'll go flying & there's no safe place to land. Sounds pretty bad, huh?

Lost, you may get different responses to this question depending on the poster. Some people will cut a lot of slack for a wayward in withdrawal, and insist that you must continue to Plan A.

IMO, I think that the sooner you start defining your boundaries, the better off you will both be, and you can still be in Plan A. Boundaries are not lovebusters; they are not demands - they are agreements between two people. I see a lot of room for boundaries in your relationship.

For example, the first big boundary is NC of any kind if your H is to live with you. Without NC in place, there can be no movement forward, as your H will always be in withdrawal. Constant withdrawal is painful for both of you; therefore the boundary is helpful, it is not a burden to be borne by your H.

NC is not firmly in place if OW is texting your H. While your H's means of communication should all be open to you (cell phone, email, etc), they should also be closed tightly to OW. I would suggest a boundary of changing his cell # - effective immediately. While he may not have answered her text this time there is nothing but his will power to prevent him from doing so in the future. Plus, every time he hears from her it puts thoughts in his head that are affecting your relationship.

It needs to stop. You need to be firm on this; it's for both of you.

Another boundary would be MC; I believe you are in counseling at the moment?

I have reviewed some of your other posts, and I note a high degree of insecurity ("am I posting in the right place?", "not sure if this is where I should ask", etc.) This is not a criticism in any way, simply an observation. Boundaries will help with your insecurity. They will help you to define how you want to live, you will not be at the mercy of your H's ever changing feelings and moods.

Please think about getting that cell phone # changed. Set a boundary. Keep OW out.

PK

Thanks, pk.

I will sit down with him tonight & get things down between us.

Only problem with changing his cell is he now has to use his personal cell for work. They pay for it so he can't change the number. Only because customers & such that are not in plant every day have it & need it to contact him. I will tell him about making sure I have access to his voicemail.

Sometimes, I know he really loves me but this weekend, the "I don't know" came out again.

I will set boundaries & continue with my Plan A.

Thanks again!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

lost, this is a non-issue, and it sounds like an excuse your H might make - so that he can stay in contact w/OW. I am very, very sure that if your H were to explain to his employer exactly why he needs to change his cell # that it would be no problem. Do you think that his place of business wants him to be receiving texts/calls from this OW and all her problems and threats?

My H paid for an employee's cell phone for a while, so I am looking at things from an employer's perspective. Employers want their employees to be productive; they can't be productive if they are being harassed.


That is all well and good, but it is still access after the fact. You want to cut off any possibility of the OW being able to contact him. Trust me, every time he sees her # on a text it sets off a train of thought that is detrimental to your recovery. Every.single.time.

Make no mistake; you are fighting for your marriage. You don't go into a fight with one hand tied behind your back.

PK

I think you're right. This morning, after he left for work at 3:30 a.m., I got on the computer to get on here. When I punched up the history to go to MB, I found this "www.sexyhotmama@aol.com". I couldn't help myself. I called him & asked him. I told him not to lie to me. He finally told me it was supposed to be a website for OW, that she had some pics on there he wanted to see. I asked him why he wanted to see her when he should be only wanting to see me. I'm sure I LB'ed all over the place. The hurt was too much.

He has accused me of throwing away some kind of prayer/charm box that was hanging in his truck. He got this box while he was living somewhere else & we were having no contact. He says he bought it. I didn't but he don't believe me. He accused me of snooping. That he has no privacy on the computer because I have the passwords & he can't check on my stuff. I told him I gave him my passwords including the one for MB. His answer was only one time. I told him I don't change them. My passwords are all the same variation of one certain thing. I told him that also. I told him I wasn't snooping, that I saw this when I clicked on the addy line to get to MB.

I told him that I thought when he said he wanted to work things out with me that he meant he was through with her for good but that I was obviously wrong about that. He said he felt he was through with both of us. That he felt that maybe we should go our separate ways because it would never work. I told him I was trying to make it work & he said no you aren't because you're snooping.

He said what would your IC say about your invading my privacy. & he hung up. I sent him a text saying my IC would say its not invading your privacy if you have nothing to hide. I have nothing to hide. Then I told him what my passwords are & where I post on MB & my screen name.

I felt like I'd been stabbed through the heart when I saw that & he confirmed who it was. I want to tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. But I love him too much. I guess that's my biggest problem, I love him too much. I want this to work so bad. I do everything I can to not mention OW.

He told me that I'd probably find out her website, since he couldn't & leave her a nasty, dirty text message. I told him I wouldn't because I was through with her. He said I'd sent her one. I said yes but not nasty or dirty, just a question that I wanted a yes or no answer to & she wouldn't answer so I left it alone. But it wasn't nasty or dirty & the ones I'd sent in the past were telling her to get out of my life.

I know it's fog babble. I feel that if he didn't love me at all he would have left at the start of this & never came back, filed for D & we would be done by now. My BF from high school & my stepMIL both told me about half way through this nightmare that once I got to the point that he couldn't hurt me anymore, it would be over for me & I would file for D & be gone. My stepMIL said it took her 2 years before she got to that point & left my FIL for good. I'm still not there, he still has the power to hurt me.

Everytime I think it's gonna work, that he was sincere, something like this pops up & I feel played, hated, unloved, unwanted, uneverything. I feel he's using me to stay until he can afford a D. He said he wasn't.

I know Dr. H said that withdrawal starts over every time there is contact of any kind, info about OW, anything that brings her to mind. I feel powerless to stop it. I can't demand as it will turn into an AO & a LB.

I feel like I'm not only losing the battle but also the war. I guess I'm feeling a little sorry for myself today but that really hurt me.

I really thought he meant it this time. I thought he was finally being truthful with me. Is there a way for me to see through the fog to know if he's sincere?




Today, I feel like I have both hands & feet tied & I'm blindfolded. Is my love for him blinding me to the truth? I was so happy when he told me he wanted it to work. I've been telling people that we were working it out, that he finally realized he loved me & wanted to stay. Just a moment when the fog lifted, I guess.

And I realize his accusing me of lying is to cover for what he did yesterday.

As far as the charm box goes, I've been chosing to believe he was telling the truth about it, that he bought it & not OW. That he kept it because he bought it. I wonder now if OW gave it to him & that's why it's so important to him.

I've been reading the thread about success stories. I so hoped I would be able to add mine to those here. Today, I don't think so.

yes.

lost, I'm sorry for your pain. Your H is still very much a WH. Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing - it's that simple. He's not asking for privacy - privacy is closing the bathroom door. He's asking for secrecy in which to continue to conduct his illicit affair, and secrecy is an intimacy-killer. The fact that he is home now means very little, I'm afraid.

BTW, if your IC tells you that your H should be allowed privacy on the computer/cell phone, etc, you need to dump him/her now. That's just stupid.

I will tell you that I am not 100% ok with all MB guidelines regarding affairs. For one thing, I think that the term "fog" is highly overused, and often inaccurate. Your WH is not in a fog. He's being deliberately selfish and creepy and choosing to withold a significant part of his life from you. That isn't fog; it's reality. I think that more often it's the BS who's in a fog of denial.

FWIW, I think that you're coming out of the fog, even as we speak. You're starting to realize that your H is not on board with recovery. He's got his own plan, and it's called "I'm not having an A as long as I'm not having sex w/OW" Doesn't matter if his continued contact w/OW is hurtful and keep him in a constant, unpleasant to live with state of withdrawal, doesn't matter if his actions are the death-knell for your relationship. He's all about himself at the moment.

Again, not fog. Reality.

Your WH is continuing his A, and you have to decide if you want to remain in a relationship with someone who is deliberately choosing someone else. My advice to you would be to call the Harleys. See if they can help.

In the meantime, I would consult a lawyer and get your financials in order. It's all well and good to hope for the best as long as you prepare for the worst.

I am not an advocate of a BS staying in a relationship when the WS is eating cake while straddling the fence. I think that is much too demoralizing.

PK

Call it love, call it hope, call it denial. But the point is that you are dealing with a WH, not a FWH. The difference is huge. You simply cannot begin recovery with a wayward.

PK

pk,

Thanks.




I realize that he is still a WH until I know we are fully in recovery or recovered. He hasn't gotten to FWH yet.





I feel the same way. I've never asked for privacy for cell phone or computer. Once when he asked to look at my phone, I gave it to him & he threw it against the wall. All because I'd gotten into his vm & found a message from OW.

I'm not hiding anything. I will & have freely given him my login info & passwords to anything he wanted.





My IC has never told me that. In fact, she believes he should be open & honest with me if he wants to stay married to me. He throws IC in my face when he thinks I'll admit to him she agrees with him. And I've admitted that I didn't always do what she thinks I should do. Same with advice here. I'm human & I'm guilty of not always doing what I know I should because of hurt.







I think you may be right. I've told him before when we talked about it that he keeps making a choice, he just don't want to accept the choice he keeps making. He asked me once a couple of weeks ago why he would jump out of a relationship with a beautiful woman into a relationship with a woman who is not so beautiful. My answer was that he wasn't jumping out of one into another, that he was in two relationships & would be ending one, that leaving the beautiful woman should be a sign that he don't love the beautiful woman. The beautiful woman being me, his words.

I told him Sunday that we needed to stop pretending everything was going great if it wasn't. That pretending it was so didn't make it so. That I thought he really meant this time to make the effort.

I'm as bad as he is. When I get hurt, like this morning, I want to tell him it's over. To pack his sh*t & get out & never see or speak to me again. Then, later, when I calm down a little, especially after getting on MB, I don't want him to leave, I want him to stay & be honest & truthful with me & make a good life with me.

I'm ashamed to admit that I've even been hurt to the point of hitting him, something I know I shouldn't do but the alien takes over me & I can't seem to stop myself. I want to hurt him physically like he has hurt me emotionally. It's like all the hurt comes out of my hands. But I never succeed because I can never hurt him the way he has & continues to hurt me.

I've said this before. I wish I could hide in a cave until this is all over with & he has made a final choice one way or the other. Until this happened, I never understood people who talked about having pain this bad & this deep. I understand now about a pain so deep it can't be held in & it overflows when I least want it to.

Thanks, pk, for listening to me & for trying to help me. You've given me things to think about. I haven't had the talk with him about boundaries because we haven't been home together long enough to talk. Maybe this week sometime. Even though I fear it will be for nothing because he's made his mind up no matter what I do or say.

AmIok,

I hope my sitch works out for the best, like yours. I keep reminding myself that the road to the great marriage I want is long & rough. Like you, we seem to be leaning toward recovery one minute & away from it the next.

This is the longest & wildest roller coaster ride I've ever been on. And it would be kind of funny if it weren't my life & my heart on the line.

These are times when I wish God would give me a glimpse into the future to see if we make it.

I got a text message from him this afternoon. It said:

"Look. It was just curiosity thats all. I know u dont believe me and I dont expect u 2. Maybe u should listen 2 ur buddies on the computer."

He was talking about MB. And that message tells me he's not mad like he was this morning when I asked him about it. But at this very moment, I don't even care enough to kick him out or ask him to leave. I told him curiosity killed the cat & in this case it was killing me. And I told him I believe him, that it's the most truthful thing he's said to me lately. And that it looks like he's not ready to give her up & commit to me, so don't say it unless you really mean it.

I really don't want to hear anything from him until he's ready to become a FWH, commit to making our marriage work because he wants to & not because of some lame excuse of past commitment that was made. Guess that's a boundary I'm setting.

I'm gonna keep doing what I do to plan A the H, when he comes around & work on plan B'ing the WH. Sometimes that's hard to do.

Tell him that one of your "buddies" is a former wayward herself. So that when I say that as long as he keeps giving in to his "curiosity" he is prolonging withdrawal, I'm not just talking out of my @ss.


I confess that I never quite understood this concept. IMO, a person is wayward at all times until they cease all wayward behavior. Otherwise, you're just playing guessing games. "Is he WH or H today? Let me over-analyze" You don't need the aggravation. Keep it simple. Right now, until he's total NC, he's WH.


Very often looks have nothing to do with infidelity. It's really all about *him* - not you, not OW. She's not giving him good looks, she's giving him something that is harder to define; perhaps it is admiration, perhaps it is the feeling of being needed and strong. But it's a poor attempt at a compliment to you. A real compliment involves action not words. A real compliment would be acknowledging the validity of your feelings and stopping all contact w/OW.


Well you have something very serious to work on then, don't you? Because you can and should stop yourself. Doesn't matter that you're not the first person to react this way.

What have you done just for yourself lately? I'm talking about exercise, getting your nails done (if you're that type), getting a massage, something to relieve the enormous stress you're under.

PK

Good Morning, pk!!

I was on & just saw your post.




For myself, I have done my nails. Last night, I asked for 3 things he liked about me. He told me one was that I tried to make myself look good by getting a cute haircut & fixing it every day, by doing my nails, losing the weight & wearing cute clothes since then. When I do my nails, I usually paint them & my toes a neon color, so they match. I can't stand for them not to match. I tell people when they comment on my nails, that it's cheaper than prozac. Even on a gloomy winter day, bright nail polish can give me a real pick-me-up.

I know I need to do more but with school starting, this being my DD#2's last year, I have been real busy with Senior stuff. But I have taken some time for myself. On Father's day weekend, I went & stayed at the company campground in the camper, just me & the dogs. Just to get away & think & relax. I enjoyed it. I need to do it again.

I went to the local First Monday Trade's day this month with DD#1 & a friend. We stayed all day & had a great time. I'll admit my stress level is rising right now.

Part of it is work, my boss is in the hospital & may have cancer. Part of it is the sitch I'm in. Part of it is DD#2's school doings. I have learned to say no to some of that.




I will tell him this. In fact I will print out & show him this post. He says he has no one to talk to about any of this. I wish he would get on here & find someone he can talk to, like I did. I think it would help.

He says he doesn't want to do the MB thing for recovery. Because it can never work after all he's done. Because he likes to be in control & he thinks he won't be in control by following this plan. I didn't get into it with him last night about that, but I think this plan helps put you in control of your life, your marriage & in some ways, yourself.

My WH has issues that go farther back than me. His bio father is a WH, who has never been faithful to any of his 4 or 5 wives or any girlfriends. His 3rd wife is my stepMIL. Because she was married to him for 16 years, longer than any other woman. She has been a great source of comfort for me. My WH has convinced himself that he is the spittin' image of his F, that he is exactly like him. But his F has never considered a wife & kids to be a family. They are always possessions to him, something to make him look good. He is also cruel & stalked my stepMIL when she finally kicked him out for good. He still drives by her house, parks on the street & watches her place when he apparently gets lonely. She just ignores him since he doesn't call or come to the door or threaten her. She also has a RO against him.




I kinda felt like it was a back-handed compliment myself. He doesn't even know what she gave him, or he doesn't right now. I told him repeatedly that we could make a go of it, that we could recover & have a great marriage, if we both worked for it.

We talked a long time last night. He told me things he has never told me before. But I also realized that his feeling he didn't love me started when he lost a job that he really loved 10 years ago due to company closing. I told him last night that I don't know how he felt about that but that I could see how it affected him. That I'd never been through that so can't even imagine how devastating that is but that didn't mean I can't see how it has hurt him.

I think it's encouraging that he is talking to me. I hope he hears more of what I'm saying than I think he is. The depression right now is great. He's convinced himself that his kids hate & don't care about him. That's not true & they've told him that, but he's feeling so sorry for himself that he doesn't hear them. Yeah, he fell off in the pity pool & won't come out. But maybe something I told him got through.

We talked about how I've felt in the past. At one time in the last 10 years, I did feel that I wasn't in love with him. But I sat back, took a long hard look at my life, spent more time with him & remembered all the reasons I fell in love with him in the first place. I told him I fell in love with him again. I told him he could fall in love with me again, if he wanted to. Right now, he says he doesn't want to. He loves me but he doesn't think he wants to fall in love with me & thinks he can't. I don't think this man talking is the man I married. I think the man talking is the selfish one, the one who accepted her invitation to stray, the one who wants to do what he wants when he wants with no one to answer to or think about.

From others here, & from you, I know that that man will eventually go away. He told me again last night that I want everything to be fixed overnight. I told him that yeah, I'm impatient & want that but I also know that it won't happen that way. I said I know that it will take time but I was willing to learn to be patient & work for what I want.




This, pk, in on my list of New Year's resolutions. To work on controlling that anger & not letting it get physical. I have no excuses just let it get away from me. I am working on that. Once, when I got really mad at OW, I took a picture that he had of her, nailed it to a tree in the woods behind the house & emptied 9 rounds from my 9mm into it. Unfortunately, because of wind & my shaking with anger, I only got one round through her heart, the rest went all around her. But I felt better & I did it on the recommendation of my IC, a way to get the anger out, kill her figuratively & get her out of my mind. Plus, I wouldn't have to go to jail for it, LOL!! I'm learning to use my anger to clean my house. Instead of tearing up things or hitting something or him, I empty all the trash cans in the house & throw away things I don't need anymore. It's funny, but it helps. I can tear up trash all I want.
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