"The disconnect is why I came here in the first place. Saying "I love you" at one moment, but NOT addressing the things I specifically stated needed to be addressed. What does that mean? Does the think that if she is just better, I won't do what I said? Does she think what I told her doesn't matter? Does she think I am not serious? She obviously has no reason to say 'I love you' at this point unless she does really love me. But why, if she really does love me, does she IGNORE the things I have asked of her to continue our marriage? Why wouldn't she go to counseling? Set up a weekend? Come to me and talk to me about us? Why the disconnect? "

Why is this a disconnect? The answer is obvious to me: she feels making an effort to be nicer is what will get you two closer together. You feel that the path you describe will get you two closer together. I suspect that either approach alone or both together would work. Have you read the Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiation? Why isn't it okay if she's not enthusiastic about the method you propose? Why not keep brainstorming to find a method that you are both happy with? Why not set up the weekend yourself? Or go to MC alone if she doesn't want to come with you?

Touche...Ears...

Sometimes the most obvious things are right in front of me... You are right... she seems to think this will work and I think something else will work. The only thing is that we have failed over and over again with this, and she is not/has not thus far, been willing to change course. That is what I cannot continue, because at least in my mind, we have proven that this method has failed us. And I need to do something differently or stop continuing to do what has so miserably failed.

She won't read alone or with me, anything concerning MC etc. Just refuses flat out. I tried to set up a weekend before, she found every reason in the world NOT to go. I do go to our MC alone... he (I think) believes that she is not willing to do anything different. So... I guess the reason I put this on her shoulders is because she won't come up with something different, and refuses to join in with my thoughts. If nothing is going to change, I felt that I would explain my feelings, let her know that it is OK if she doesn't have the same feelings, and explain my boundries and intentions. If I could get her to come up with something... ANYTHING... I would whole heartedly try. She just won't do anything except "try to be nice"... which hasn't come close to working for 18 months, because it is like paint on rust.

Your post made me smile...

I do appreciate your thoughts on the 'lack' of a disconnect... it is only a disconnect in my mind. And I can appreciate that with your post.

I may be totally off base, but I think ears_open is hitting on something that's been rolling around in the back of my head about your situation. You seem to be a very...strong and focused person, from what little we know. Very smart, very capable, very everything. Which is great. BUT. If you pair that with someone who has issues of her own, there's a great chance for that disconnect you're talking about. You seem very sure of what it is you want, how to get it, what to do for plan b (not the MB one), what to do for plan c, etc. (talking about life in general, not this specific situation with W). That can be very intimidating. In fact, my H is like that and I learned a long time ago to just shut up and let him think he's running everything, because he simply has no room in his mind for anything other than the one, true way - his way.

Not saying your way is wrong. Just that being around it can be very daunting. My best advice at this point is to think outside the box - outside your whole box. Find some way to start questioning the way you think of things, to try to let in some other possibilities. Read some books; visit a spiritual leader; search the web. Let yourself be fallible; make a fool of yourself; turn things upside down. Try to question how you approach things. Let her see a vulnerable side of you, and I don't mean romantically. Maybe she just figures she'll never measure up to you or your standards.

Like I said, I may be totally wrong, but it's a sense I get from the way you write. I'm a writer/editor, so I sometimes do that with people's writing.

You know Cat... you are not wrong in the least. She has stated that she feels that I won't think she is 'ever good enough'. But I think that is because she tends to have a complete conversation in her head between us in the matter of a second or two. With the usual outcome being that whatever, she was going to say or mention, I have shot down and disapproved of out of hand. I don't even have the opportunity to say anything, before I already have the 'status' as having refused.

I think she does feel inadequate. I am extremelly well, long, highly, excessively, however you want to say it, educated. But I came from extremely humble roots and would far in away relate more to my cowboy (in the very real sense) family than to any upper crust society you might know. She used to call and ask me questions out of the blue because her and her friends were wondering about stuff, and just figured I would know the answer. Well, most of the time I did, and I think that by just telling her the answer, I began intimidating her. In fact, sometimes, she would say she didn't understand why something was like it was... and me, being the bozo I am, would proceed to explain it to her. We even joked, that when she said things like that, I was NOT to explain the answer. And if she had some new tidbit of information/trivia, I AM NOT to say that I already know it and to act surprised when she tells me.

NOW she is NOT a dumb woman. She is incredibly intelligent. I do think that she feels inadequate sometimes, and really stresses her success in school etc for my benefit. I just don't know how to tell her that I do not feel in any way that she is inadequate. I love her, I married her, and I realize she is very intelligent. In my heart, I know that I have never before tried to show her that she is less in any way. And as I have stated, I just pretend not to know things now, which is fine I guess... seems kinda goofy, but hey... little things can mean alot, I have learned.

I do not go around spouting off demands or correcting errors, but I feel that she looks at me as if I do... because I COULD perhaps. The simple fact that I might know something, seems to engender an almost paradoxical reation in that rather than be proud and glad that I have some ability, it is looked upon almost as a fault. (Maybe this is why she doesn't show me admiration, because she fears my thoughts/abilities/knowledge rather than looks upon them as something to be proud of for herself.) I think this is also something which causes her to hear my OPINION as something else. I rarely can just say something I 'think' because she tends to take it as my edict and law. I cannot say many things at all, because I must constantly guard them against the posibility that they will be assumed to be the law of the house. She has had a difficult time adjusting to moving into our(sic MY) house after our marriage. I don't know how to reaffirm/state/engender trust/etc her that I feel this is OUR house.

These sorts of situations are always difficult, blended families... marriages later in life.

Keep the observations coming guys... I appreciate the mirror and thoughts greatly.

INT, do you know, I was going to respond on your post to Wonderin, that women ARE that simple, and that I'd guess that your W's top EN is admiration. I didn't post there, because wonderin was in pain, and my post didn't belong there. So I feel so validated to come to post that and find this here!

Have you asked her to post here?

If I were her, the first thing I'd want from you is actual, truthful interest in me and my thoughts. Try this: try to keep yourself from actually making any 'pronouncements' for one day. Then try for another day. See if you can make it a habit to try to melt into the woodwork for awhile, not have any opinions, ask her about hers, tell her you can't figure something out (find something!) and that you'd like to hear her take on it because it's throwing you for a loop. Could be world peace, or something as simple as why this particular intersection always has more accidents than any other. Or whether the toys from China have always had that much lead, we just never checked. Or why she thinks her job doesn't offer dental insurance. Whatever. Just get her talking. And respect what she says.

Even as you say this to us, and think you are being humble, you are coming across as extremely confident, smart, learned (and we learned ones are the most arrogant!), and wise. Even the strongest person could wilt under that.

I think you may be smothering her and she just needs to feel valuable. And not in a wife way. In a human being way.

I have not asked her to post. In all actuality, I fear her response that I have posted our 'life' here. I fear that she will read my posts and be angry. I don't fear that I have misrepresented things how I believe them to be. But that, she won't even discuss things with me privately, I really don't think she would like to know that I am discussing them publically. Anonymous or not...

I would love for her to post. I would really love for her to come to this site and just read Harley's information. I would love for her to feel comfortable posting about her feelings and fears/thoughts/desires. I don't think she gets any feedback except from a single friend who "agrees" with whatever her perception is, whatever that might be.

If I did tell her about this place, I worry that she would come here and read my posts, and become angry. Although, I don't know that it would make a difference. I would love to hear her post her concerns about me. At least I would know what my parts are and it would give me something to work on. Please don't think for one moment, that I believe everything is her fault. Don't even for an instant, think that I want to fix her because I am fine just the way I am. I would love nothing more than for EVEYTHING to be because of me, because then I could go about working on the problems myself. Unfortunately, I am a dense and probably deaf and blind man... and can't see what is right in front of me.

Thanks Cat...

Oh, sorry, INT, I didn't pick up on the "she'd get angry" part. I've left the MB page up many times, waiting for H to get curious. Maybe one day. I think too many of us come here without a place IRL where we can talk to folks who've walked in our shoes. Even my IRL friends with the same issues don't approach issues in the same MB "let's find the POJA" way.

But your W's specific issues are also really well addressed with FlyLady.net. You could check it out, and if it looks good, you could try it yourself to set an example. Maybe it would pique her curiosity. If nothing else, you'd learn how to talk with someone with self-esteem issues in a way that leaves them energized and motivated.

Ignored, I think although you are well-educated that you may not be very well informed about how people raised in an abusive family of origin act. You state that your dw had a verbally abusive alcoholic step-father and an emotionally unavailable mother whom until recently she didn't get along with. Then you say that you don't think that she was overly traumatized by the situation, and that her mother says your wife was a mean child.

Based on that kind of childhood and a previous failed marriage your dw probably greatly admired your stability and intellect. You seemed like a safe place for her. Now she is acting inappropriately you feel and is over the top in her social interactions. It may be that you are the first safe person she has found, and so she is acting out some of her pain and hurt. Obviously this isn't the right way to do it, but she needs to be encouraged to work out these feelings in a more appropriate manner.

Based on your description, I would guess that you have developed a sort of parental role with your wife rather than as partners. This may be why the sex stopped after the marriage vows. She may be starting to "act out" against that parent as she begins to feel safer with you.

The reason I say this is "been there done that" myself. I had the same sort of childhood as your spouse, and yes I was was traumatized and likely she was too, even if she doesn't show it. An important part of existing in a disfunctional home life is to pretend that everything is all right and normal.

The first year or two in any marriage is quite tough as people move from courtship to marriage, and when you add foo issues, raising children from previous marriages, and university attendance it can be very rough.

Do you have a good idea of what she considers your love busters? She is very resistent right now to making any changes in her behavior, but she may respond more lovingly to you if you take the first step.

You might say something like "Is there anything that I could do differently that really bugs you now?" I'd avoid the MB-speak, but just get the point across. She may not answer the first time, especially if she thinks you aren't sincere, but keep at it.

The safer that you can help her feel, but with the addition of good boundaries so that she knows what is acceptable, the easier she will find it to trust you.

This post is perceptive. I found in my marriage that often it seemed I was being put into a parental role. And at the end this was interpreted as we had been living more as 'roommates' than as husband and wife.

Your suggestions on attempting to give his wife a sense of being valuable as a person, as a human being are good. We should all relate to one another with this goal in mind.
Tired clearly places much value on expressing himself in great detail and in the best king's english. This is not a fault.Reading his posts is painful for me because of the effort he makes to paint as accurate a word picture as he can of his circumstances. It's painful due to the fact its like reading a review of my relationship with my former wife. Tired repeats many times over how much he loves his wife.This is good. He seems to have a need similar to mine in wanting to be assured-often-of his wife's love for him. Verbally, physically ( playfully, not sexually only),emotionally,etc. I don't think this can be criticised. This forum thread is filling up with sound suggestions as to what he might try to bring about the atmosphere he desires for his marriage. One of mutual love and respect moving toward that 'oneness' we hope to find with our chosen partner.Sixteen years followed by an excruciating rending. I guess I am jaded. I see Tired fighting this uphill battle only to find it was a war he couldn't win. He cannot be her therapist, her father, her big brother and be her husband all at the same time. It doesn't work out well at all.I could have been my wife's friend. In being that, and nothing beyond that, when she would become abusive and disrepectful of me as a person, as a human being with sensitivity and feelings, I could separate from her and tell her I'd see her another day. As here husband I couldn't do that.

So ,when I read of his situation, which is so like mine was for many years knowing how it turns out, it is difficult for me not to cut to the chase and suggest he takes his losses and put his assets into another bank.

I read somewhere once -and this isn't to say marriage isn't hard work -that if when relating to someone it doesn't seem easy to do.If it doesn't feel natural but seems to be painfully difficult then it isn't meant to be. I concur with this wholeheartedly. I just wish I had put it into practice when it was my turn. Tired may be trying to put the square block into the triangular hole. Why? Because he loves her and wants what he began to work. Not because he fails to see the shapes are not the same. So, does he want to spend years trying to figure out a way to make his life with her enjoyable and rewarding when thus far it appears to be mission impossible? He may choose this. It's his life.I also sense he may regard the alternative as not having tried everything there is to try. Which-to me-means he is more the therapist than the husband and let me put this into the vernacular of the day...it sucks to be the therapist and then be wanting as the husband.


He wants and needs to be regarded by her as her husband, friend, companion, lover. If she needs a father, a therapist, a big brother and is looking at him as any of these then she will never be able to fulfill her proper roll with him.

As he said, there is a depth in all of this which would take a book to fathom.

It occurs to me her behavior suggests she is dragging a load of luggage she can't release from her past or past
relationship/s. She may feel the failure of the past and is unable to file it away to be fully involved with the present. But, here again, we are playing counselor: fine for us-not so for Tired.

Ultimately, it is his decision whether to stay or go. But if he stays I think he will need to accept he is not going to receive the affirmation and warm fuzzy love he would like to have.

Assuming she has the problems we are concluding that she has (we don't really know), it is possible if she could ever come to the point where she's willing to undergo therapy to exorcise her inner demons. I have hope that everyone can do that, and to do that, they usually have to have someone in their corner, loving them (or else having hit rock bottom). I totally feel for you, but I feel you're allowing your filter to block out potential reasons for hope, not the least of which is the early stage at which he's asking for help.

I don't know how to be someone I am not, so please forgive my postings as the long winded voicings they turn out to be.

I do have hope, unfortunately, I was a psychologist before I changed professions early in my career. I went to counselling for a couple years at the end and after my first marriage. I have read so many books I could start a marriage library. I posted, thought, etc about everything I could think of at one point or another. Sometimes education can be a curse. Not because you KNOW everything... but because you feel that you need to LEARN everything. I don't do well, NOT KNOWING something which bothers me. Now don't read this as I bug her because I don't understand her. But I am perplexed and at a loss, simply because I have no idea about why things are the way they are. Things that seem so clear to me are so opaque to her. Things that must seem so obvious to her and others, are completely lost on me. Not because I don't WANT to see them, but because I simply can't see them yet.

I did not mean to belittle the degree of trauma her upbringing has caused for her. I do believe that her past is exactly why she has such difficulty now. What I also believe, however, is that she needs to speak with someone who will challenge her 'thoughts' about current issues, because she bases everything which happens now on her past experiences. Understandable, sure, but the thing is... I am NOT her drunk step-father. I am NOT her absent mother. I am NOT her cheating ex-husband. However, she treats me as if I am all of them rolled up into one. AND what is WORSE, is that me trying to help her see that I am not these people feeds into the whole issue.

She needs someone outside, and impartial to say, "Now... you see it this way, what makes you think this and what do you think his TRUE motives were in that instance." As it stands, I am simply the person involved, and therefore, cannot be trusted or must have some angle regarding anything I say. I did not feel this way before we were married. I just look at her, and see someone whom I really believe I could help to feel safe, secure, and great... IF she would just let me in. If she would just break down, and love, trust, and be loving in return.

I don't know where the shield came from, but it seemed to appear as soon as I put the ring on her finger. Like I said before, it was like as soon as she had something to lose, she chose to go into prevent defense, and mitigate the loss rather than move forward and win our marriage. I need to be able to say that is my sense to a counselor, and let him/her look at the situation, and perhaps relay that possibility as a cause of our interactions. AND help ME understand what I need to do differently in order to help our situation as well. I feel like I am wrist deep in a patient's skull, and can't reach my forceps. I can see everything that I feel needs to be done, but can't do a single thing about it. And unfortunately, I am at a loss because I just can't think outside of what I understand. And the forceps won't help me out any.

----------------

But I must say... I didn't marry her to be her father... her mother... her counselor... her brother....

I married her to be her husband, her protector, her provider, her friend, her confidant, her children's 'Daddy', and her LOVER. I don't feel that I have had the opportunity to be anything more than her provider... and minimally our girls' Daddy.


I married her to be MY Lover, companion, confidant, and friend. What I feel I have received thus far is a cook and housekeeper. Neither of which I need in the least...

Your post sounds sincere. Then why does it bother me? I guess I feel sorry for your wife. I would DESPISE being married to someone who viewed me as damaged and 'broken'...something that needed to be repaired.

I think people have different levels of need for love, attention, affirmation and affection...from very low, to very high. And I believe we have a tendency to give at a level we feel comfortable in receiving. More is not good to low-need people. All that touchy-feely attention--even in the name of romance--can drive them away. Even a person who falls in the middle of the spectrum with middle-of-the-road needs can be pushed away, can lose desire.

For the higher-need person to have any hope of getting the attention he wants, he must NEVER accuse his partner of being broken or damaged because her needs are different than his. That is always certain to backfire.

The other issue I have is the allegations of conflict-avoidance. In order for someone to be labeled a 'conflict avoider' in a marriage there has to be conflict. Why is there so much conflict to avoid?

An argument is just two bullies trying to be right and to get the other to shut-up and listen. If someone is avoiding the conflict of an argument, it is usually because there is one bully instead of two.

I am beginning to think you have a sizeable ego. When you spoke of education being a curse going on to say "because you KNOW everything" and so on I remembered reading long ago that the one sure thing about learning is you discover there is always more to learn. It is just the nature of the beast. You can never know everything. Also, if you please, intelligence is not in knowing everything but in knowing where to look to find what you need to know.

I am wondering if you have a life aside from analyzing your wife and how she responds to you throughout the day. Do you go to the health club, or grab one the girls and go out to shop, or just take a walk and say nothing, or to the ice cream store and buy her/them a cone and let them do all the talking. Just wondering.

I disagree with education being a curse. I would add that knowing how to apply it is equally important.

You met her, you began to have those 'love' feelings, you may have observed she was in need of some kind of corrective influence to become all that she could be and ,lo and behold, here was your opportunity to put all that educaton to use and with someone you loved on top of that. No need to look any further -or deeper- as I am sure she will appreciate all I can do for her and respond to meet my every need. Just wondering.

Did you really and objectively love her with all her warts and comedos or were you in love with the vision of what you could help her to become? Just wondering.

Love , love, love. Hear it a lot. To listen to my 17 year old you'd think she loves everybody. When she says goodbye to her friends - any and all - she concludes with "I love you". But rarely does she say that to me. And when she does, it has little more emotion in it than it takes to swat a mosquito.

Love, def. (best I ever heard) Setting the direction of your will toward the good of another. To love someone, in truth, is to do that. And, like it or not, it says nothing regarding their reciprocal response. Something here for all of us to work toward when it comes to loving someone else.

You want to make it work. You and the woman you married. There must be things about her you can admire, can compliment, can ,aloud, say how much you like. Try just letting her be her for awhile, doing what she likes to do. What's more, expect NOTHING in return.


Do it for several months. Forget yourself. When she isn't asking anything of your time, go and do something on your own. Build a model ship, paint the ceiling, read some Dr. Suess and laugh out loud. Most importantly, don't spend a micro second putting your wife on a slide under a microscope to see what makes her tick.Love her according to the above definition and leave her alone. And strive to love her daughters. That will, in time, put medals in your war chest.

If after you have sacrificially done this ,she kicks you to the curb, tell her gently she will have to buy a village sticker or waste management won't pick you up.

Finally, one man to another, I am going to be a little sarcastic with you. Quit your sniveling and be about the business at hand. Less time on the computer is more time doing something more productive. See suggestions above. Take care....

Man to man...

Thanks

Something to consider:

I admire and respect your dedication to working out the problems in your M. You sound very confused, hurt, and yet dare I say hopeful. Kudos for coming to MB to better your relationship skills, there is certainly a wealth of information to be found for the curious and for the desparate.

Having been in a position that I thought it "helpful" to analyze my spouse, I can say that you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. That time would be far better spent analyzing yourself. The same could be said for the sessions with your counsellor. I'm surprised this educated individual is encouraging the discussion of your wife's psychoses during your IC sessions. It amounts to little more than gossip and speculation, b/c only your W can illuminate what is going on in her head. I'm curious as to why you haven't focused on your own faults and issues, there or here... How can we help you if you are only listing your W's symptoms? She is not here to ask, debate, or accept the advice you seek. So I'd like to suggest, if possible, begin to focus less on her in the relationship and more on you in the relationship. How do you meet her needs... How do you not meet her needs... What needs of yours would you like met... What your LBers might be and if you have or need a plan to address that... Etc. Do you see where I'm going?

What say you on the theory of co-dependency? Would you say your W's emotions and attention set your mood? Furthermore, Do you see a connection with spending your time diagnosing your spouse and a parent/child mentallity in your M? To be frank, you may be clever enough to diagnose her issues, determine exactly which dose of Prosac to prescribe, and get the number and references of a very competent therapist... But it all amounts to nothing if your W does not think she has a problem. If YOU do all this work, she has no ownership of the problem or solution, and will feel she is being lectured or bullied by the person who s/b her lvr. Big-time romance killer. (which begs me to wonder how your W would describe the luggage incedent) For that matter, she might be depressed b/c she's unhappy with her M, not that it is a good reason, but certainly reason enough to concentrate on being the hubby that meets her needs the way she likes, in order to bring her out of withdrawal. Do you know what are your W's top Love Languages?

I'm not suggesting you are the cause of her depression, just that there is little you can do about it and you can only fix yourself and protect yourself with healthy boundaries...

I hope you are not taking this as an unbased tangeant, because I'm speaking from the lessons (based on what I've read) of BTDT. I recommend you focus on yourself, learning healthy boundaries and communication (as it sounds like something is being lost in translation).

My LBs to her... that I know of would include.

Answering most all her questions really bothers her, I have begun to say "I don't know." when it is not the truth.

Having an opinion which she seems to take as voicing and edict. Often, I just don't say things, because if I say something contrary to her, she acts as though I am telling her "NO !!!!" So I just don't say anything very often, when I would at least like to have an opinion heard.

Withdrawing... I have been attacked so often, I used to fight or argue with her, but now when she jumps my case, I typically withdraw prior to the argument incurring. If I am to say anything I will quite often get the treatment I had when I mentioned how I felt with the shoes in Chicago... so I just avoid it sometimes. She THEN is angry about my withdrawl instead.

Not taking my shoes off in the house... I grew up wearing shoes in my house until age 38... I now take them off about 95% of the time without issue. Sometimes I forget or have to grab something quickly and you would think I just drug a coal bucket purposefully all over the floor. She openly bashes me in front of the kids. Then, after I tried to always remember and still failed, she made a big deal about just Giving up... but she still holds it against me, because she never misses a chance to mention how 'dirty the carpet is'. What angers me, is she will allow our youngest daughter (her biological girl) to wear whatever, whereever, whenever. If I say anything... she says she is only 5... like dirt obviously doesn't stick to 5 years old's shoes you idiot.

Early in our marriage, she seemed to act like any sexual overature was an LB... I just don't anylonger. It hurts more to try and be turned down than not to try at all.

I have gained about 15 lbs since we have known each other. Nothing since we were married. I havn't gone to the gym as often since we have been married. I think that I need to go more often both for my physical health as well as to just get out of the house. I am 6'2"... so while the 15 lbs isn't wanted, it isn't quite as bad as it could be. Not to diminish its importance. I am 6'2" and 220 currently.

There are more... but I have to get out of here at the moment.

You are arguing over dirty carpets? Think about it--carpets!

What woman wants to live with soiled carpets? So when your wife complains you say, "Well, you let the five-year-old do it." You studied behavioral sciences? What text book did you get that comeback out of? Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus where all the carpets are clean. But your answer about the five-year old came out of Uranus!

Fix the carpet problem NOT YOUR WIFE! Pull them up and install some resilient flooring or other attractive no-care flooring. Put down area rugs. When they start looking shabby, you buy new ones.

Answering most all her questions really bothers her, I have begun to say "I don't know." when it is not the truth.-
IgnoredNTired2

For what it's worth, women ask many questons without really wanting the man to answer them. They want only for the man to listen. They will usually nudge you if they,in fact, would like the question answered. And then begin with the simple answer, the one without all the unnecessary details. If more information is desired, she will say something akin to, "Go on". Otherwise resist the temptation to expound on the subject.

Do not take her not wanting an answer or a lengthy answer as an insult to your intelligence or store of knowledge. They seem to process information in a different manner than does a man.