I apologize... I just previewed this and it is enormous. I guess that being that it is my first post, it can serve as a starting point for anyone willing to read it through.

First marriage was 11 years, 2 boys currently 14 and 10, divorced 5 years ago due to her repeated infidelity and at her ultimate behest.

Currently married 18 months, met 18 month after divorce. Together 2 years before marriage. She has 2 girls ages 8 and 5. Their father is not in the picture to any significant degree.

I was somewhat pushed into getting married (she just kept wanting to be married, and although I wanted to, I didn't really feel ready. I asked, and we were married after knowing each other about 3 years or so.) During our courtship (yea I just said courtship.. heh) we hit it off immediately, to the point that after dinner and on the walk back to the car, I whirled her around and kissed her. I had dated probably 30 women (one time dates) before her, none before divorce was final.

Our relationship was pretty good. She was very loving, and complimented me, was physically loving both sexually, as well as just publically hugging and kissing me. She is quite intelligent, beautiful, etc etc etc. I fell in love with this person. Immediately upon our marriage.. and I mean IMMEDIATELY... that stopped. It is cliche to say... but since we have been married, we have had sex about 1/20th as often if that, as before. She has initiated probaly 3-4 times consisting of saying, "come get in bed". I spent the first 6-8 months being turned down consistently to the point that at about year one, I think we had had sex about 18 times total. I took her to Italy for 2 weeks on our Honeymoon, renting villas in both Positano and Tuscany. Yea... I thought I was going to "get some"... we didn't consumate our marriage for 5 days! And then it was more begrudgingly on her part, at least that is how I felt.

We haven't had sex in probably 3 months except for a single time in the middle of the night, which she initiated. Unfortunately, I believe it was because she had a 'hot-n-heavy" dream, and she awakened aroused and I was just available. At least that is how it felt. I no longer even try, because the feeling of being turned down or potentially even worse, grudgingly abliged is worse than just the feelings of disconnect and unloved-ness that I feel currently.

We have subsequently had several more difficulties on several fronts. There is so much depth to this, It would require a book. But in essense, she had no father, step-father was 'abusive verbally' and a drunk. Mother was not loving and until just the last year or two, she had a horrible relationship with her. Overall, she just seems like a small, scared, little girl who has put up a huge defensive shield in order to protect herself, and her girls. And until she married me... she had nothing to lose.... but NOW.... she has a marriage to lose. She lost her main luggage bag on the trip over, so she had no clothes. I tried to say, Lets go buy some more, but she just stayed in bed for 2 days. I felt as though she had completely chosen a damn bag of clothes over me. It essentially stayed the same way the since that day... we have never been a team.

I feel as though I have an opponent instead of a wife. For at leas 9-10 months after we were married, she was openly hostile. We went to marriage counseling, but it was like she didn't want to hear anything. I would be open and honest with her about my feelings... with "I feel" statements.... she said "Its always about YOU !!!"... It is like I said... She is like a young girl who has circled the wagons since the day we were married, and won't do anything about it.

We have had a couple breakpoints, where we were essentially 'done' but never broke up. One was in Feb, where I found some things she had written about my youngest boy in an email to her mom, and I about left her on the spot. She begged and pleaded, said she wanted to do things differently, wanted counseling, to read, etc. None of which she would do before, despite my subtle and sometimes not so subtle hints/request. She went to counseling ONCE, and no more. The one thing which did change, is that she was no longer OVERTLY furious with everyone. She became much more passe, but angry behind the scenes, passive aggressive, dismissive, and more inclined to ignore any interaction.

I make good money, and before we were married, was providing money for her to go back to college and to live on. That amount did not change upon our marriage which was one of my mistakes. I should have brought it up and we should have changed it from yours/mine to ours. She spends it as though it is pocket change, and it is anything but. I still pay for everything else, but now she has no bills/mortgage, etc. This is a mildly sore spot, but not my main one at the time. I do wonder if I am just an ATM to her.

Anyway, we have had a worse and worse time as we go along. We went to Chicago the weekend after TGday, and were doing mildly OK. I wanted to buy a pair of shoes, and was wearing white athletic socks, which she was quick to point out to the person helping me in a derisive tone (jokingly disgusted would be a good way to put it.) Then when the man asked me if I wanted to wear them out, she almost fell out of the chair telling him NO !!!. I felt small... like the guys who are dominated by their wives. I am not at all, but I felt that way inside the store. I then went to the counter, and saw that they had socks, and told the guy, I would wear them out and I would just buy some different socks. He picked out 3 pair which he felt would be good. She walked over and immediately, and quite loudly, began telling me how "MY choices" in colors and the socks were very bad, and that I should NOT get those, and why not just get brown socks. He looked at me, I asked him for brown socks, he gave me a couple pair, and I just touched one pair, and she said, loudly again at the counter with 3 people behind it and about 3 people waiting in line, NOT THOSE !!! I don't like those. I felt, smaller and smaller, and finally I picked out what she wanted, put them on and walked out of the store. As we walked up the street, I said, " I love you, but you made me feel more emasculated in there than I have ever felt in my life." She just stopped, looked at me incredulously, and said "I am going..." turned and walked down the street the way we had come. No I am sorry... at the time or since. No I understand, no nothing. She NEVER says I am sorry when she hurts me... she says "I am sorry" if a box of pasta falls off the shelf as I get a can out of the pantry ie... NOTHING TO DO WITH HER OR REASON FOR HER TO SAY I AM SORRY... but she won't even acknoowledge when she hurts my feelings or attacks me directly.

A little over a week ago, I sat down with her, told her I love her and the girls, want to be her husband and the girls daddy. But that we were not acting like we cared about each other. We have become better at being opponents than couple. We find it easier to hurt each other than help. We are more comfortable being apart than together... etc. I told her that I was going to continue counseling (I have been going to our MC all this time, she quite). I simply stated that if she wanted our marriage to continue, there were several things I needed for her to do. If any of them were too much, all she needed to do was tell me and it was fine. I said she needed to 1) get a personal counselor, discuss with him/her our marriage and the possibility of medication to even out her moods. 2) find an intensive weekend for marriage counseling away somewhere, such as the Marriagebuilders workshop (I didn't tell her MB... just something intensive, away, and geared towards getting us reconnected.) and 3) Set up a time once a week, during which we just sit and talk about how we are doing in our marriage. I said, if any of these things are intolerable, or she feels they are too much to do, or she just doesn't want to do them, that it was OK, to just tell me. If that was the case, I said I would like to try to make it through Christmas for the kids sake, and sometime in mid January, to split up and begin divorce proceedings. She sat there, kind of smug, with just a tiny hint of sadness... didn't say anything. Nodded her head curtly, and we were done. It was extremely calm and unemotional. More of a solemn... this is the way it is for me, kind of thing.

Since that time, she has been quasi-loving ie nice without any significant anger. She has been somewhat interactive, and a bit more jovial when the kids are around. She has been 'nice' to me and kisses me goodnight, if she goes before me. She has been a bit nicer, but no direct discussion about my points I made to her. I don't know if it is simply to keep the peace, and she is relieved to be 'over', I don't think this is it. OR whether it is because she is trying to be 'good'. But regardless... I am not biting the hook, because this has been an action several times before, when we have trouble, she pulls it together for 2-3 weeks, but then we are right back to where we were before, with me more and more removed and bitter.

At the moment, I am of 2 minds... thinking she is doing something, but has yet to tell me... and thinking that she is doing nothing more than she has always done and she thinks it will turn out differently THIS time. I guess there is a third thinking... that she is planning on leaving... and trying to keep the peace and get set up in a beneficial way to herself. I don't know. We have a prenup, she would certainly get less in divorce than if we were married, but I don't know if she is mature enough to see her point in life. It is as if she is a stubborn teenager, who wants something her way, and puts on blinders to the world because the world isn't working into her plans.

I don't know... I am trying to stay positive and give back positives when she gives them. But I am NOT setting myself up to be pulled back in again like so many times before. I have finally gotten to the point where if we were to divorce, I would be OK, although not want it. I will not continue the marriage without the aforementioned actions on her part. I don't believe that we can flourish, and I am no longer willing to just survive at a subsistence level. I have less now being married than I had before, simply because before, I had an opportunity to LOOK for someone to enjoy time with. I am 39... not that old. I have alot to offer, and I don't want to live the rest of my life with someone who ignores EVERYTHING about me except the bad. My boys deserve to see something better from life than a dad who is miserable in marriage. I don't want to be her version of her step-dad to her girls. (I have a very good relationship with them both. Both calling me daddy, which I enjoy immensely.)

My first guess would be that, as you say, she is severely traumatized by her childhood. She pushed to marry, thinking it would 'fix' her. But all those feelings are still here, so now she's angry and afraid she made the wrong decision and made things worse.

If so, I would recommend heavy counseling for her. I mean, deep stuff. If it helps her for you to go, do so, but I'd bet she's ashamed of herself and her life or whatever, and fearful that if anyone were to know the 'real' her, they would hate her like she herself does. That's why I recommend personal C, so she can get over all that FOO stuff. It could take years.

The only other possibilities that come to mind are (1) you changed but don't realize it, and are giving LBs and DJs and she wasn't expecting it; (2) she did indeed just marry you for security and now feels she doesn't have to pretend any more; or (3) she really didn't want to marry you because of someone else, or else she met someone else and wishes she were with him.

IgnoredNTired, welcome to MB! Have you read the basic Concepts? What do you think so far?

We usually start with identifying and eliminating our own LBs. And it is a great place to start. But this is really different, someone feeling so threatened by what shoes and socks you are wearing that they would Act out so forcefully. Especially after you were H&O about the consequence her behavior had for you. Have you asked her what is the matter that this bothered her so badly? When we have had posters posting about this kind of behavior, their wives are very early 20s, but your W has an 8 year old daughter, so she is not in that age range, right? So is this a maturity issue or something else?

Anyhow, even if she cannot pinpoint for you why she had such an extreme reaction, this program doesn't rely on figuring out the "why's". It will help you create a totally different environment. You have a real leg up in the process with how you are already honest with her instead of LBing back.

What help are you looking for?

You sounds like an intelligent, thoughtful and very loving person. I wonder though if you have some major issues with communication?

Your wife's behavior in the shoe story is odd. Has she done this kind of thing before? I think the way you initially handled it was great. My concern is that you didn't follow through. Why didn't you continue? Most married people would have not let it rest until they got an apology, some kind of affirmation or a conversation going about why she did such a thing. I would not have done ANY KIND of business with her until we had resolved the issue.

The fact that you didn't follow through with this greatly concerns me.

Now you have given her ultimatums. That is also problematic. You have demanded that she does A, B, and C or you will move toward divorce. That is a threat and threats do not work in marriage. They always backfire. I think that is why you are feeling so anxious. If your wife is in fact being nice so you do not leave her, then I am certain she is building up resentment toward you in the process. She probably feels bullied and threatened, even if she realizes on some level that you are right.

There is no real communication going on here either. Why are you not talking about this? Why are you not saying to your wife, "Gee honey...you have been so sweet to me lately and it feels good. How does acting nice toward me make you feel?

You have only been married for 18 months. You are still working the bugs out. The way to work out the bugs is to talk about the stuff that bothers you in a non-judging and respectful way. For example: "Honey...when I tell you something you do hurts my feelings, it means a lot to me to get an apology, even if it wasn't your intent to hurt me."

Like the article, "Ouch! No, let me explain..."

This was the first thing I wondered about. Is there more to this part of the story? I am wondering if she was sexually abused? Could she have used sex to draw you in like when you were dating, then felt ashamed later on so quit??

I think she was upset because her luggage was lost. He said she stayed in the hotel in bed for two days. He wanted her to go buy new clothes but she was too upset.

Imagine planning that perfect honeymoon...spending months finding that perfect bikini and those sexy yet comfortable strappy shoes to match that sexy little black dinner dress?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> And your new (and, so you thought, improved) husband thinks you are being unreasonable when you get THAT upset over luggage? Some men are from Mars. Others are from PLUTO!

Now, I didn't see that as ultimatums as much as Boundaries. Her behavior is so different than before marriage, that he is feeling that something needs to change. If she doesn't want to change, that is what it is and he won't stay in the marriage.

My theory is she has low self esteem and doesn't think she is worthy...worthy of being loved or in a relationship...she is waiting for you to abandon her to show her she is right. That is why she may be unconsciously pushing you away to prove her point. Maybe that is why she looked smug after that talk...See? He is leaving me. I knew he would.

Getting so upset and staying in bed for 2 days on a honeymoon and not consumating a marriage for 5 days is not normal. Simply saying its a Mars/Pluto deal is a disservice.

Ummmmm....The relationship was consummated BEFORE the honeymoon. Personally, I would have been EXTREMELY upset AND IN NO MOOD FOR SEX if that happened to me, ESPECIALLY if my husband invalidated my feelings. Are you saying I am not normal?

What in the name of Christmas is "normal?" That sounds incredibly judgemental to me!

If my H said something like that to me, I would feel incredibly threatened, bullied and even abused. I would most definitely feel I was given an ultimatum. Again, the really weird thing is he anxious and he is not talking to her about it.

NO ONE IS COMMUNICATING IN THIS MARRIAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow...I just replied to all points so far, and lost the post. I had to make another account because the other account would not allow me to open threads which were previously posted.

I won't go into the post in depth again right now.

Pieta - While I understand what you 'think' occurred, you do not understand what actually occurred. I spent several days on a street payphone at 4am trying to get her luggage back. I went back to the airport, over 100 miles away to look through the lost luggage rooms. I called, and called. I gave her massages, etc. I gave her time, I even went out and bought her a new dress.

All to no avail. I really did feel as though she would have been happier in Italy if her bag had made it and I had been lost. That is how she treated me. She had ME... her new husband right beside her... and she could do NOTHING without her bag. I admit, I was dissappointed. I felt completely unappreciated and thrown to the side. I also admit, that what I wanted most of all was for her to simply say...."Arrrrgggghhhhhh.... I hate that I lost all my things.... but I have the most important thing right here with me. My new husband." Had anything approaching that occurred.... I would have turned the world upside down trying to make her happy. As it is... I could only muster turning Italy upside down.

Everytime I try to talk with her... I end up talking to her. She won't talk about anything. She will never bring up an issue. ONLY ONE time in our entire marriage, has she brought up an issue, and it was an attack. She makes no attempt at repairing anything if we go wrong. If we begin speaking again, it is because once again, I have made the initial effort to repair whatever has happened.

Peita... in your marriage... can you imagine being so perfect that you don't need to say "I am sorry" even ONCE in a year and a half? What would you think if you were having a tumultuous marriage... and your husband NEVER said I am sorry.... no matter what was going on at the time.

If she feels threatened, bullied, and abused with how I have been, then there is no hope... because I really cannot try any softer, kinder, gentler or less threateningly. You are very quick to point out my faults in communication Pieta... tell me how YOU would appoach it. I am hoping you have the secret I have been missing.

I often see people on this forum send people over to Al Turtle's Website. http://www.turtlecounseling.com/


I think Turtle has something significant to say about why one person in a relationship usually has nothing to say. Turtle believes that the reason is always the the spouse has made it unsafe for the other to talk.


Click on "what to do when he/she won't talk."

To reply to a few other posts.

Cat/ears - I don't believe she was significantly traumatized, however I don't know that for sure. Her family has said (after marriage of course) that she was a terror and down right mean as a girl. She refuses to go to counseling, although she did go early in our relationship to help deal with her mom. I tried to help her see how it helped her with her mom, and that it could help us as well, but she has yet to go, and I don't see anything headed that way. I might be LBing... I really try not to, but I am sure that I do in some ways. I know that our marriage has not been the Cinderella story that I believe she had envisioned, and that she has had only ONE relationship, as far as I know, which I believe she still feels would have been the 'right' one... and I am NOT the other guy. I don't think she has anyone at the moment, and not within our marriage at any time. Although I was fooled during my first marriage.

Her reaction about the shoes was one which seemed more of embarrassment for herself, than anything else. It was as if she wanted to ensure that the salesman knew that she did not approve of me in athletic socks (I don't understand this, but that is how she acted.... and NO... I wasn't wearing dress shoes etc with them.) It was like I was a kid, making all kinds of mistakes in the buying of the shoes... and she had to correct each and every one of them, in front of everyone. The girl behind the desk said, after she walked away from the register "She's a piece of work." I just ignored it. I really felt like she was embarrassed of me, now that I think about it. People certainly don't look at me as if I am ugly, in fact... most just the opposite. She is often talking about how other women look at me... "Did you just see her eyeing you?" She will say... it is paradoxical in fact, now that I think about it. It would seem as though she would be loving and proud to walk with me, but she is almost exactly opposite now that I think about it.

My fantasy would have been for her to see my socks and say something along the lines of "Oh... you have those on.... well... you just wear anything you want... because you are so handsome regardless... you make anything look good." The salesman would have been envious, the saleswoman would have been jealous, and I would have felt GREAT !!! and not a thing would have changed except EVERYTHING from that second on. Remember that ladies... simple concept and a knife edge.... which way do you want to push?

It isn't that she won't talk to me... she won't talk to me about anything concerning US. She wouldn't talk to her mom about anything concerning THEM. When her brother got into an argument with their mom, her advice was to just lay low and not say anything, and it will blow over. Their whole family structure seems to have been when a storm is in force, lay low, until it blows over, and pretend it never existed. They would fight tooth and nail, then ignore each other for 3 days, then go on like nothing at all happened. Then the NEXT time, they would fight about whatever was going on at that time... AND the time before, rinse and repeat.

I give her time, but I waited 2 weeks before, and she won't budge. We walk around the house with our heads down, trying to avoid each other. If I didn't begin speaking... we probably would not have spoken to each other since week one. Her defense it so ignore it until it blows over, then just deal with the basics at hand and ignore the huge cavern you keep falling into.

So now you tell her that this is your fantasy. Take her and go buy another pair of shoes wearing white athletic socks. have some fun with it!!!! That is what my H would do. Go to different shoe stores until you find the right 'fantasy' sales persons. Then it's her turn...she gets to buy shoes and you get to comment on her stockings.

So she doesn't feel safe talking to her mother either. That doesn't get you off the hook. There are a lot of people I don't feel safe talking to either. Fortunately my husband isn't one of them. He has always made sure our marriage was a safe place for me to fall--me too.

Ignored, have you read What to Do With A Controlling Husband? I think that advice would go a long way with your controlling wife. Notice, it doesn't focus on apologies. Like Al Turle's site, it focuses on being partners and creating an environment where you two get happier and happier instead of ticked off. Imagine, no more eggshells to walk on for either of you or your kids!

INT, I encourage you to tell your wife about this site. If she fits the pattern I think she does, she will be very uncomfortable you posting without her opinion, and she will come post her side, too. Then we can support both of you in the goals that you two identify for your halves of the marriage.

What is your plan?

Hi INT,

One thing that catches my eye is this:


While I make no excuses for poor behaviour, I suspect that your wife has never learnt to "fight fair". Her whole life she has only known how to either ignore conflict or leap right into it. She has never learnt how to calmly discuss a problem without attacking and blaming (or being blamed).

So it sounds to me like your wife may simply be doing what she has always done with conflict, but is becoming frustrated that you don't "do the dance" with her (ie. fight/ignore the way she is used to). She is finding herself out of step and out of her element. Hence escalating her anger/frustration.

Based on your additional information, I think your instincts are spot on. I think she is embarrassed of you. I think she is a taker. She has no concept of giving. My stepmother was that way. When my dad scrimped and saved to give her a $2000 sewing machine, and he had tears in his eyes because it was such a big sacrifice for him and he expected her to recognize the sacrifice and love him for it, she opened the package and said, "Oh. It's not as good as the one I wanted, but thank you anyway." I saw his heart break that day and finally understood what she was doing to him by taking, taking, taking.

Some people simply don't understand giving. You may have married one.

Without saying much else at this moment, I would heartily recommend you consider the wiser of choices to be to bring this union to a conclusion.

I believe many marriages can be salvaged which , through neglect, poor skills, inadequate knowledge, whatever, have hit the rocks.

I also believe there are others which should never have taken place. Mine was one of these and has concluded after sixteen years. ( A wasteful investment of time and life and only because we had a child ) I knew with certainty after three years, it had lasted two years too long already.

Hopefully, you will not parallel my situation in this respect as did your description of your relationship in so many other aspects.

It almost sounds as if there was something more in the luggage than clothes. Are you sure your wife is not addicted to drugs?

Her erratic behavior and strange attachment to her luggage makes me wonder.

There are children involved, so I do encourage you to do everything you can to make it work out, for your own peace of mind.

That means eliminating LBs, and trying to spend as much as 2 hours a day with her one-on-one, without other distractions, to try and get closer to her.

Have you ever had an opportunity to talk to her ex husband?

Cat,
That's very sad. Do you ever find yourself acting like your mother in any way? I'm just wondering, because often I will catch myself acting like my mother, and it doesn't go over well sometimes.

I may be mistaken but it didn't sound like any of the children are theirs in common. His and hers are from former relationships. If it is determined to be a complete misfit, I don't believe it is in the childrens best interest to sustain the marriage. What is to benefit them to see a marriage which is dysfunctional daily for years to come?

Oh, no. That was my stepmother, who he married when I was 16. We call her the evil witch. She ruined our lives. My H was the only person who ever stood up to her, told her no, so she got a group of her church friends to sign a letter she wrote to CPS, saying he was abusing our D. They threw it out, but in the meantime, the rumor spread until people were calling him a child molester and our D lost all but one friend cos no one would let their kids play with her, and we eventually had to move out of our dream home and I had to quit my dream job (working at NASA) to pay for it. All because my H stood up to this taker woman. Of course, now, I see that if I had been stronger from the start and not put up with her crap (or my H's), none of it would have happened, and I'd still have my dream job, so I utimately blame myself.

Sorry to get off track. I think that drugs might actually make sense, too. But I've known quite a few takers in my life, and they literally have no concern for anyone but themselves. And they typically ruin everyone's lives before people realize what they're doing.

Thanks all, I appreciate your input.

I have no concern about drugs. That is not it at all. I do agree that she never really learned how to interact/fight fairly. I think that her interactions were to ignore. I don't think she ever had anyone who really loved her other than a Grandpa whom she looked up to admirably. He died a couple years ago, and I do think that it hurt her. I wish he was around, because I would go to him and ask him to talk with her. I think that she would have listened to him. Truthfully, I think he would tell her to pull her head out and see what she has in her hands, and what she is going to lose. And I don't mean finances, although that is something which will significantly change.

I just wish she would see that I do love her. And that we could be great together, if she would just engage in our marriage, instead of hope that things will just be good. That is almost what it is like, just ignore things and they will get better. We have not gotten any better. I do not feel I have a partner, lover, friend. I feel like I have a roommate.

At the moment... I am very confused. I know that I have set some boundries on whether our marriage continues. Some might think that they are Ultimatums.... and I guess, in some ways they might be, but I feel they are the boundries I need in order to continue trying. I just don't feel that there has been any significant changes. I don't see anything real changing. I have tried to do everything I can to work on myself to be better in every way I can think of, and while I am certainly not perfect. I finally realized that I cannot do it all myself.

I don't think she really cares about me. I think she loves me, in some way, but not the way I need her to love me. And I don't see that she cares enough to find out what it is I need. I have explained EXACTLY what I need so many times, that I can't continue with the same discussion any longer. And finally, I have realized that she knows... she just chooses not to relate to me how I have asked. I have tried to be the person she needs, but I don't know who that is. I have asked her several times, what she needs from me, and she just doesn't tell me anything.

She has no tenderness for me. She has no admiration at all. She shows me no need that I am around at all. I was sick about a month ago, and couldn't get out of bed. I NEVER stay in bed for ANYTHING. I get up early almost always. She never came in to see if I was OK. My 4 yo daughter at the time, was the only one who came up to check on me, and she came several times that morning, taking care of me. That really hurt me. After I told her that I felt badly about it. She said she had come up, but didn't want to wake me. Truthfully, I don't believe it. She became angry with me, because I was upset. And once again... never said anything remotely like 'I'm Sorry'.

There are so many things in our relationship which could/could have been OK, if she had just shown me that she cared enough to be sorry for hurting my feelings. I know that it might sound trite.... but it is just the fact. I don't have any sense that I mean anything to her. Certainly not enough to TRY...

I feel sad because she won't
- say I'm sorry if I am hurt or sad
- show me she has any sense of what I do as a provider
- take a second to make me the most important thing... for even a minute. I used to try to get her to give me her undivided attention for ONE MINUTE. I would try to just hold/hug her without any outside interuptions/thoughts. She just couldn't do it. ONE MINUTE... 60 SEC. Not worth it...
- take the time to show me in ANY WAY that I deserve something of her time
- do her homework (school) during the day or on her days off rather than wait until I am home, and then disappear to the computer all evening. She is in school, and she goes 2 days a week, but does her homework every night. Our kids are in school all but Friday.
- get a babysitter. I looked, sent her all sorts of information on several babysitters, etc. Since the youngest are her girls, I figured she should have the say in who we chose. She never even called them to see. Just nothing at all.
- Show appreciation for what I give her financially. We had our st wedding anniversary, and I flew us to Carmel CA for several days at a very nice hotel overlooking the ocean. The place was perfect, our room was perfect. It was not cheap. I told her that I wanted her to choose something during our trip out there for her anniversary gift. I couldn't get her to even look. And about a month ago, she said that she was really hurt because I didn't get her a card for our anniversary, nor a gift. ????????????? Then she said, 'Well, I guess you did take me to Carmel. I hadn't thought about that.' WTH !!!!! I have taken her to Napa, SF, Mexico, Bahamas, etc. But I have felt NO appreciation.
- She doesn't think enough about me or our marriage to read a book on preserving/improving our marriage. I have asked her to find something, anything concerning relationships. She says, she doesn't like to read about that stuff.
- she won't go to counseling even though I have asked her several times.
- is quick to point out faults rather than good things. We went to my Practice Christmas party tonight. I bought a new jacket, and when I was putting it on, she said "Where is your black one. That one just looks like you should be wearing jeans." When I was hesitant, because I happened to like the new one, she said, 'Never mind, I am going down stairs.' It is like this alot, When I don't do what she says, or take her advice completely or immediately, she seems to think that I don't value what she has to say, and that I never listen to her and don't want to hear what she has to say. The truth is I very much value her opinion. But I want it LOVINGLY told to me. Had she cuddled up to me and said something like, "I like that jacket, but you know what I think would look really good on you tonight. Your black jacket. I love that one on you." I would have walked into the closet, and taken it out, and worn it. But, she wasn't telling me lovingly, she was telling me to get her way.
- not allow me to have an opinion, and voice it. She seems to feel that anything I say, is ordering people around. For instance, off the cuff, she said she wanted to hang some curtains in the doorway of the girls room. I simply said that I didn't think it was a good idea, because they are wild players, and a compression rod wouldn't hold up for more than a few minutes. I said this just like you would if you were just saying it as an opinion. Not as the boss, or ordering, or anything. Just like if you said I like a blue car instead of a red one. She said, "Well, then we just won't do it, becaus Daddy says so." in a real derisive tone, right in front of the girls. I became angry and said, " I did not say that, and I have the right to give an opinion." and walked out. She never said anything more about it. I tried to bring it up later, she just became angry.
- she cares nothing about my desire for her sexually. She has not put ANY EFFORT into fulfilling that need since we were married. And... for me, that is a big need. Someone posted a couple links to a couple Christian sites concerning sex, and they almost made me cry, because it is EXACTLY how I feel about sex. For me, it isn't just an act... like bonking in highschool. It is where I feel that I am actually cared about. Just me, only me.
- The laundry is cleaned, because the girls have to have clean clothes, and leaving mine would just look bad. Supper is cooked because the girls must eat, and therefore, I get some as well. Given a difference in desire for supper between me and our 5 year old... I would NEVER get my wish on what we had for supper. I am so far below everything else on her list of 'Things that are important to me' I am truly not sure I am even on it. Certainly not in the top 10, which breaks my heart. I told her that I felt that way about a month ago... and got no response. It was almost like when I said it she was like... hmmmm.... you know you're right. At least that is how I felt in that situation.

- I am just not important in her life. If I were not here, I don't think she would notice, except that the fireplace wouldn't be burning. I certainly don't think that I would be missed.

- I just need to feel like I matter. I don't need much really. I would love for her to just act like she cared. I have co-workers who seem to care personally about me, FAR MORE than she does in every way.


I have realized that alot of my issue is that my hopes are never realized in almost any way. And it causes even more hurtful feelings. It began on our honeymoon, with the thoughts of a wedding night and honeymoon of love making. Really feeling like I was important, and in so, she would show me just how important I was by making love to me alot because she KNEW how important it was for my feelings of love. Maybe even putting a bit more than she really wished, or being a bit more explorative, because she really wanted to show me she cared. IN REALITY, I think she did show me how much she cared... and it just breaks my heart to perhaps finally realize it. I thought she must just not understand... but after the same thinkg occurring over and over and over again, I recently realized that perhaps... it is just that simple. The world is filled with women who are not making love to me... the reason is because they don't care about me. They have no interest in showing me they love me. They feel no responsibility as a wife. Unfortunately, it seems that there is no difference with my wife.

I don't really know where to go from here. As I stated in my original post, I told her that for me to feel that we can continue our marraige, I needed her to begin counseling, find us an Intensive Marriage Counseling type weekend, and to set up specific time each week for us to talk about how things are going.

That was about 2 weeks ago now and I have heard nothing at all. She is acting nice. She is interactive, smiling, etc. She will give me a kiss rarely, but still once or twice a day. I try to remain involved, I ensure I tell her goodbye and give her a kiss. I try to ensure that I am giving her about the same level etc, of affection in return, and it feels as though I am holding back about 95% of what I want to be like. But, in order for me to return to my usual 'invested self' into my marriage, I have to feel that she is going to engage in our marriage as well. Otherwise, quite truthfully, I don't want to become involved. I have done it over and over again, and been hurt each time, because 2 weeks of relatively good relations comes to a crash, becausee in reality, it was all window dressing.

So I have finally reached the point where I can hold WAY back, and still be around her in a nice way. I can interact on a much more 'friend' level. Courteous, kind, etc. But not loving, certainly not IN LOVE-like. It is not an acceptable way for me to maintain.

I don't know what to do, without these things being met, I will most likely proceed with divorce filing in mid January. I don't know whether I should say anything... I don't really think I should. She MUST be invested in our marriage... she MUST care enough to say something... otherwise, I can't continue. I would have hoped that if she wanted to remain married, that she would have told me something about her at least looking for a weekend, or counselor, or asked to talk with me. But.... she has found Hanna Montana tickets instead.....................

I read something recently that may be food for thought. I read that our personal pain does not motivate our spouse to change. It is their pain that motivates them to change. Your W seems to have a lot of bad habits that are in truth hard to break. (I know, because I share one of them - the apology bit, and I'm working hard to break this nasty cycle.)

She needs to rewire her thinking, but your telling her how she is hurting you isn't motivating her to do the hard work necessary for real change. Maybe it is time for a change in approach. I've recently tried this with my H regarding our marital problem, and it seemed to work...at least as of now.

When I first read this, I thought it was saying I needed to LB or disrespect in a just plain mean way to "make it hurt," but someone pointed out that it is as easy as using cause and effect statements. What do you think?

I also think however, that she really wants to be happy. To be married happily. To love me. At least I want to believe that she does.

It is just like she doesn't have the skills... and for some unknown reason, has a phobia about learning.

I am EXACTLY the opposite... and it is this disconnect which causes me even more pain. I want it, will do anything for it, and if I am NOT doing it... I will do whatever I can to learn it and do it not only as good as needed, but better. If I KNEW of something she needed from me, I would be trying to give it to her more and more. I give her massages, but actually it is harder and harder... because I am rubbing her beautiful body, and all I can think is that 'its not for me'. She loves massages, but it has gotten to the point that it feels badly for ME to give them.

I have tried to help her understand what I need, I even bought us a book 52 great nights of love or something. I did the first night, massage and love making. She 'allowed' me to have sex with her, at least that is how it felt with as little interaction as necessary. We agreed that we would each take every other week, and be responsible for them. I think, that although she agreed, she didn't want to... because the book has sat in the drawer for 2 months and nothing has happened. Some might ask why I haven't continued despite her choosing not to. Well, you see... it hurts too much to know that I am just not important enough to warrant her putting 30 minutes interest in me a week. It is not just about the sex... it is about feeling important, loved, and cared for. When your wife doesn't put that effort into you, there just isnt' much left. And it is just so far out of my understanding, I don't know what to do. My counselor (our marriage counselor for a while until she quit going) is at a loss.

January is going to get here... and I just don't know what to think. I FEAR that she will make some overture about sex, and truthfully, I don't want to. Not because I don't WANT TO, but because I don't want to get sucked back into those feelings when I don't believe there will be any changes. I doubt that will be the case, but I do worry every once in a while (probably futily)that she will do something I want her to do. But NOT do the things I have asked her to do to for me to feel that there is a chance that something will change in our marriage.

What do I do, if something breaks, and she wants to make love but has done NOTHING about the things I have requested? I have certainly thought about it, and about decided that I will just tell her exactly how I feel. Although I want nothing more... I don't want it until I feel that there will actually be a future. I am sure it will just cause a fight. I won't fight, but she will be angry. I guarantee she won't feel sad or say she is sorry that I feel this way.

I don't think this will ever change without a fundamental change requiring counseling, perhaps medication, intenssive Marriage counseling, and set time to address all of this every week.

I look at the world, and unfortunately in my mind, I think... WHY wouldn't you want to try these things? WHAT WOMAN WOULDN"T want to be married to me? (I know that is self centered, but what I mean by that is that I am decent looking, a hard worker, financially set, loving, kind, love OTHER kids as well as my own, artistic, and a cowboy." I would think someone would want to be with me... why not the one I have... I really am not as narcissistic as this sounds. It is just that I can't figure out what is so bad about me that I wouldn't be worth working for...

INT, you describe in great detail how you give your wife control of your happiness. I encourage you to read the Basic Concepts, and see how by doing a few things a little differntly, you would empower yourself to feel very much happier in your marriage pretty much immediately. If you are happy, you will see how it changes your wife's experience almst immediately, and be surprised at how she will begin meeting needs for you, especially if you follow the Thoughtful Request and negotiating processes

The withdrawal that you describe yourself in is very close to the 180 technique, and has great success in giving the other spouse "space" in order to reinvest in meeting your needs again. But this trial and error is kind of dangerous if your cut off is mid-January.

You don't sound like you've read the Basic Concepts yet. What's stopping you?

Doesn't help the problem much, but you can compartmentalize sex from your other issues. You can see it as a human need, for the time being, in your head and realize that what you're getting is a temporary thing, and you'll look at getting the real stuff later down the road.

She sounds like she may have severe self esteem or self hate issues, in that she hates who she is, is terrified that someone else (you) will find out the ugly truth and then she'll be exposed. You'd be surprised how many people feel this way. They often sabotage what they have, figuring that once the other person finds out more about her, they'll leave in disgust. So you are doing exactly what she figured you'd do - leave.

You're depressed right now, and rightly so, but I suggest you table the leaving idea for now, and work on finding a different way to get to her. Are you seeing a C? You should be going, by yourself, so the C can help you solve this problem.

Of course, it's entirely possible she just married you for security, and the minute she got the ring, she just quit pretending to be the person you thought she is.

But I'd bet on the first one. Either that, or she really does have a severe medical condition. I've been messed up my whole life, and I learned early on to just not feel. My H sensed it early on, and kept hounding me to make sure I really loved him. But the truth is, I've had a wall up for so long that I'm not sure I did. I just went through the motions. I suppose if I wasn't so afraid of confrontation, I might have acted the same way your W does. I'd have important moments in life, and I'd look at myself and think, why aren't you happy? Why aren't you feeling anything about this? It was all because I was afraid people would find out I'm unloveable, so I just didn't let myself get invested, I guess.

Ears... I have read them and tried to employ the basic concepts. I even explained the thought of Love Bank etc during a talk at one point. I don't know if she listened at all. I gave her Harley's books, they were never opened as far as I know, and certainly nothing was implemented from them. I have tried to do the things he recommends, which to me, seem so good and worthwhile. But it is hard... really hard when they seem to have NO EFFECT. When I have tried and tried to be kind, involved etc, we do well for a while, but then something occurs, and we are thrown completely off the track, and just can't get back on. THAT is the problem, things go bad because we have no way of continueing despite the bump in the road. She ignores, won't engage, won't talk about it, etc. Never tries to make a repair jesture. Just give it 3 days, and pretend that whatever it was never happened.

I know she feels badly about things, but it is like she just doesn't have the skill to say 'I'm sorry.' LITERALLY, it is as if her mind does not have the ability to say those two words. She said one time, that she gets frustrated and angry, but that all she really wants to do is just melt in my arms, but for some reason she just can't. She just doesn't know how to break and love, she just puts up the wall higher and higher. The problem with this is that I am forced to climb higher and higher in order to reach her. And then when I get to the top, I get nothing in return. The climb has become less and less worth it.

I would do anything for her. REALLY. But it has become because I have a ring on my finger, not because I feel what I want to feel. I am old fashioned I guess, in that I have responsibilities to my family which are concrete and steadfast. Those things can't change for me. But, it has become such an ordeal just to LOVE her, and I get no feelings of LOVE in return.

It seems so simple to me, ... the things she could do to completely make me feel loved. Hug me... kiss me... show me some respect... make love to me... make me more important than the kids every once in a while. I don't need more of ANYTHING from her other than what SHE CAN ONLY GIVE me. I can do the dishes and cook supper, I can do the laundry, clean the house, get the kids to school and events. What I can't do is make myself feel loved.

Tired and on the verge....It is time for you to cut and run.
Because you don't have enough life to repair what makes her tick the way she does. You must realize before you have invested any more time in this relationship that some unions were never meant to be.

Catperson said- "Of course, it's entirely possible she just married you for security, and the minute she got the ring, she just quit pretending to be the person you thought she is."

It is ENTIRELY possible. And ,therefore, she will not give you the love you definitely need and deserve in the marriage. I had sixteen years in such a marriage. Your description of your situation parallels what I lived with almost to the letter. Don't make the mistake I did by waiting sixteen years for the conclusion of what never should have been begun. She found another at her work and the games began. The lies, the deception, the rewrite of history, the selective memory, etc.

You have said enough for me to say to you...now is the time to pull the plug. You can't heal her. You won't be able to 'make' her love you the way you need her to love you. It just isn't worthwhile to spend years trying to be her therapist when you married her to be your lover and companion. She doesn't appear to have even the rudimentary tools for the demanding responsibility of being a marriage partner. And you can't love her enough, you can't do enough, you can't remind her enough of how you love her and what you do for her, to make a difference. She is apparently damaged beyond your responsibilty and ability to make any significant difference such that you could have the marriage with her which you intended. Don't waste any more of your life. That is my recommendation to you.

We went out today with the girls for the Hanna Montana concert. It was fun and we actually had a great time. We ate before hand, and she actually complimented me on how I looked. When she got up to go to the bathroom, she even walked by and gave me a kiss, and told me thanks and she loved me. We all went to the concert, and we sat together, and she repeatedly leaned over and put her head on my shoulder and held my hand, at her initiative. I loved back, gently and not to much extra, but a good amount to reinforce that this was EXACTLY and ALL that I need.

After we got home, she was in a great mood and playful, and we goofed with the girls for a bit, I put up the tree and she made cookies. She came over and hugged me at least a half dozen times. Which was wonderful. We put the girls to bed and she was playing with me, and jumped on my back for a piggy back ride.

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE CRAVED !!!! I love this action today, and it is what I want more than anything. A LOVING relationship, in which she initiates a bit of loving towards me. I had a hard time not pushing things further, but I was able to keep myself in check, because as before, I don't want to get pulled into a momentary lull of fun. We have done this so many times, where we will have trouble, then things will bounce back and we will be great, only to fall off a cliff a week or so later for whatever reason. I know that life and certainly marriage is not perfect. I just don't want the bumps to completely knock us off the cliff all the time. I want to be able to just work through them in an evening or couple hours or dare I say, minutes in a conversation, and still be in love.

I am a bit worried about tonight to tell you the truth, she is in a mood which might lead to love making, and again, I am still torn between what I should do. While I don't want to derail our good day, I also don't her to think that everything is OK, and we don't have anything to work on. I want her to become engaged in our relationship, and give me the hope that we have a future. Again, the only way at the moment which I can see that future, is if we have an intensive weekend like MB weekend, she begins counseling, and we have a scheduled time for safe, relationship discussion. Otherwise, I know that when a bump occurs in a week or two... we will be flying off the cliff once again, and I don't think I can stand landing any longer.

When she is happy and interactive like tonight, she is the woman I fell in love with. I think that she wants us to be good together like today, but once again, she just doesn't seem to be willing to put in the time to help HER part of US continue this way. That is what frustrates me to no end.

Sounds like good progress. Sometimes all that is needed is for communication. You feel like she is a robot and not feeling, but she may just be really good at internalizing because she doesn't feel safe to let you know who she really is. I think Hoti's wife is another such case.

By putting it all out on the table, you may have given her the safety net she needs, in knowing how invested in her you are; thus the renewed affection, etc.

I really think the secret no one talks about is that nearly each and every one of us is a little bit wounded; how we react to that wounding, and how much we let the world know about, determines how we are perceived. Even people who seem cold, unloving, brisk, even mean, are often really just people with bigger fears than ours. The trick is in figuring out how to let them know they are safe. Maybe you have found the combination to open that fear inside her, and better days are ahead.

You also have a lot of resentment toward her, whether you recognize it or not. The key to MB, from what I've deduced, is to let go of that resentment and make YOUR move toward being a better spouse so that they feel safe to reciprocate. I know it's made a HUGE difference in my marriage. Sounds like you may have made some baby steps in that area and are now seeing results.

I genuinely hope this moment you have had is multiplied many times over.Catperson has made a suggestion in her last paragraph which may be what is needed. It's early yet and worth the try.However, you alone know the pattern of how it progresses and your conclusion may be most accurate.I agree with your assessment. You need the help now in the early stages of the marriage. Otherwise, I fear it will one day become irreparable. Don't procrastinate. Truthfully, I don't feel the optimism my words above suggest. I see you riding a roller coaster that ceases to be enjoyable.

"She's a piece of work."


Believe it. Others see it why don't you? She disparages you, uses you for money for material things, is abusive and is totally non supportive. She seems not to care for you as a person, a man, and her husband.


Does love really have anything to do with why she married you?

Do you want this the rest of your life.

My sister is this way to her husband and he is so beaten down by her he wont look anyone in the eye. There are moments when my sister can appear to be "nice". Then, she quickly turns on you.

Good luck with this loon you married. Your life with her will be full of heartache and walking on eggshells since she feels like she does nothing wrong.

If you can communicate with her, try it. In 100 different ways.

Despite my last post, I lean much more toward what you see in this relationship. I don't believe it has the raw material necessary to make it a green and growing marriage.
My former wife ,too, could have a 'good' day or part of a day and then, just like Chicago weather, do an about face and become the vilest, nastiest person you'd ever want to meet. And there was no apparent cause for the abrupt change.
It simply occured. It is painful for me to read his last post because my gut feeling is that it is going to be one of those exceptions to the rule that serves only to set him up to become vulnerable to the next assault.

In my case, she would tear my heart from my chest, throw it to the ground and stomp on it, ignor me for two or three days and then start talking to me as if nothing had transpired. Again and again this would happen. My affection toward her was being eroded away a little more with each occurrence.Then,after becoming involved with another man at her work, she told me one day, "I am so finished with you". (Her exact words) Why? Because I was 'cold'.

Long story short, I should have followed my instincts at the beginning and terminated the marriage. The way it was progressing was not why I married her. Simply, she was too damaged to be a good companion.

I feel quite strongly that he will find the times like he last describes will be few and far between. I could be mistaken but I don't think I am. To be married so short a time as he has been and to have gone through what he has seems a pretty good indication that something vital was missing at the outset. Like ,for example, her truely loving him and taking her vows seriously.

May he not have to spend the years I did to realize life is too short to waste in a illconceived marital union. And his marriage ,as he decribed it here, is remarkably parallel to what mine was like. And there isn't enough money in the world to entice me to spend another sixteen years like the recent last sixteen. This is absolute fact.

Stella/ICH - It isn't that I can't see what we are like together. It isn't that I don't see more and more the disparate actions versus hopes and desires. I can see those things fine. But I truly do love her, and don't want to terminate our marriage without really trying everything I can in order to find a good marriage with her. I married her because I loved her. I have experienced, as ICH stated, and erosion of my love over time.

I feel that I have made strides in understanding our relationship as it pertains to my expectations and desires in conjunction with her willingness to engage in our marriage in a way to meet my needs. I also believe that she has the ability to feel wonderfully in our marriage. However, I believe that she has such a protective wall around her, that she just can't allow herself to be vulnerable and try something different. It is a foreign concept to me, to be so steadfast and scared as to be afraid to just say "I am sorry".

In my heart, I believe that if she would be able to discuss these things with a counselor and open up to some books on marriage and the needs of spouses AS WELL AS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF ME TO HER and her needs... she would understand that being married and having a loving partner is not as dangerous as she appears to think it is and that in fact, I will protect her from the world. I think she has never had anyone feel that way about her, and she has been so self-reliant her whole life, that she cannot put any trust into me. The Catch 22 is that, by so doing, refusing to allow me in and refusing to become vulnerable and meet my needs, she is setting up her own belief. I think that she has always feared I would leave her, and maybe that is why as soon as she had something to lose, she refused to invest herself. That is the contradiction I find so difficult to comprehend. In my world, if I have something to lose, I do everything I can to work harder, so I don't lose it. She tends to withdraw, more of like trying to minimize the loss rather than prevent it in the first place.

She simply doesn't see that by investing in me and our marriage, she would have no fear of losing anything. It seems like she just plans and escape route, and lives her life within her evacuation plan. Not wanting to pull the release cord, but unable to let it go. Fearing that I am going to pull it before her.

I love her, I really do. I am extremely hesitant to do anything. I told her a month or so ago, that I would do anything to maintain our marriage except NOTHING. I would not continue to do the same NOTHING that we have been doing. I told her that if she wanted to be married, that she would have to choose something for us to do. Nothing... no further information or trying. Subsequently, a couple weeks ago, I told her that in order for me to feel that we had a future, she had to do a few things to engage in our marriage, and if these were not acceptable or too difficult, that she just had to tell me and it was OK. If we didn't do those things, however, that I would file for divorce in mid January. Still nothing, although her interactions with me have improved, and she has told me she loves me a few times VERY recently.

The disconnect is why I came here in the first place. Saying "I love you" at one moment, but NOT addressing the things I specifically stated needed to be addressed. What does that mean? Does the think that if she is just better, I won't do what I said? Does she think what I told her doesn't matter? Does she think I am not serious? She obviously has no reason to say 'I love you' at this point unless she does really love me. But why, if she really does love me, does she IGNORE the things I have asked of her to continue our marriage? Why wouldn't she go to counseling? Set up a weekend? Come to me and talk to me about us? Why the disconnect?

Either say "I love you and here is what I have found so far." or just quit saying I love you, be courteous, and we can come to a close in a month.

"The disconnect is why I came here in the first place. Saying "I love you" at one moment, but NOT addressing the things I specifically stated needed to be addressed. What does that mean? Does the think that if she is just better, I won't do what I said? Does she think what I told her doesn't matter? Does she think I am not serious? She obviously has no reason to say 'I love you' at this point unless she does really love me. But why, if she really does love me, does she IGNORE the things I have asked of her to continue our marriage? Why wouldn't she go to counseling? Set up a weekend? Come to me and talk to me about us? Why the disconnect? "

Why is this a disconnect? The answer is obvious to me: she feels making an effort to be nicer is what will get you two closer together. You feel that the path you describe will get you two closer together. I suspect that either approach alone or both together would work. Have you read the Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiation? Why isn't it okay if she's not enthusiastic about the method you propose? Why not keep brainstorming to find a method that you are both happy with? Why not set up the weekend yourself? Or go to MC alone if she doesn't want to come with you?

Touche...Ears...

Sometimes the most obvious things are right in front of me... You are right... she seems to think this will work and I think something else will work. The only thing is that we have failed over and over again with this, and she is not/has not thus far, been willing to change course. That is what I cannot continue, because at least in my mind, we have proven that this method has failed us. And I need to do something differently or stop continuing to do what has so miserably failed.

She won't read alone or with me, anything concerning MC etc. Just refuses flat out. I tried to set up a weekend before, she found every reason in the world NOT to go. I do go to our MC alone... he (I think) believes that she is not willing to do anything different. So... I guess the reason I put this on her shoulders is because she won't come up with something different, and refuses to join in with my thoughts. If nothing is going to change, I felt that I would explain my feelings, let her know that it is OK if she doesn't have the same feelings, and explain my boundries and intentions. If I could get her to come up with something... ANYTHING... I would whole heartedly try. She just won't do anything except "try to be nice"... which hasn't come close to working for 18 months, because it is like paint on rust.

Your post made me smile...

I do appreciate your thoughts on the 'lack' of a disconnect... it is only a disconnect in my mind. And I can appreciate that with your post.

I may be totally off base, but I think ears_open is hitting on something that's been rolling around in the back of my head about your situation. You seem to be a very...strong and focused person, from what little we know. Very smart, very capable, very everything. Which is great. BUT. If you pair that with someone who has issues of her own, there's a great chance for that disconnect you're talking about. You seem very sure of what it is you want, how to get it, what to do for plan b (not the MB one), what to do for plan c, etc. (talking about life in general, not this specific situation with W). That can be very intimidating. In fact, my H is like that and I learned a long time ago to just shut up and let him think he's running everything, because he simply has no room in his mind for anything other than the one, true way - his way.

Not saying your way is wrong. Just that being around it can be very daunting. My best advice at this point is to think outside the box - outside your whole box. Find some way to start questioning the way you think of things, to try to let in some other possibilities. Read some books; visit a spiritual leader; search the web. Let yourself be fallible; make a fool of yourself; turn things upside down. Try to question how you approach things. Let her see a vulnerable side of you, and I don't mean romantically. Maybe she just figures she'll never measure up to you or your standards.

Like I said, I may be totally wrong, but it's a sense I get from the way you write. I'm a writer/editor, so I sometimes do that with people's writing.

You know Cat... you are not wrong in the least. She has stated that she feels that I won't think she is 'ever good enough'. But I think that is because she tends to have a complete conversation in her head between us in the matter of a second or two. With the usual outcome being that whatever, she was going to say or mention, I have shot down and disapproved of out of hand. I don't even have the opportunity to say anything, before I already have the 'status' as having refused.

I think she does feel inadequate. I am extremelly well, long, highly, excessively, however you want to say it, educated. But I came from extremely humble roots and would far in away relate more to my cowboy (in the very real sense) family than to any upper crust society you might know. She used to call and ask me questions out of the blue because her and her friends were wondering about stuff, and just figured I would know the answer. Well, most of the time I did, and I think that by just telling her the answer, I began intimidating her. In fact, sometimes, she would say she didn't understand why something was like it was... and me, being the bozo I am, would proceed to explain it to her. We even joked, that when she said things like that, I was NOT to explain the answer. And if she had some new tidbit of information/trivia, I AM NOT to say that I already know it and to act surprised when she tells me.

NOW she is NOT a dumb woman. She is incredibly intelligent. I do think that she feels inadequate sometimes, and really stresses her success in school etc for my benefit. I just don't know how to tell her that I do not feel in any way that she is inadequate. I love her, I married her, and I realize she is very intelligent. In my heart, I know that I have never before tried to show her that she is less in any way. And as I have stated, I just pretend not to know things now, which is fine I guess... seems kinda goofy, but hey... little things can mean alot, I have learned.

I do not go around spouting off demands or correcting errors, but I feel that she looks at me as if I do... because I COULD perhaps. The simple fact that I might know something, seems to engender an almost paradoxical reation in that rather than be proud and glad that I have some ability, it is looked upon almost as a fault. (Maybe this is why she doesn't show me admiration, because she fears my thoughts/abilities/knowledge rather than looks upon them as something to be proud of for herself.) I think this is also something which causes her to hear my OPINION as something else. I rarely can just say something I 'think' because she tends to take it as my edict and law. I cannot say many things at all, because I must constantly guard them against the posibility that they will be assumed to be the law of the house. She has had a difficult time adjusting to moving into our(sic MY) house after our marriage. I don't know how to reaffirm/state/engender trust/etc her that I feel this is OUR house.

These sorts of situations are always difficult, blended families... marriages later in life.

Keep the observations coming guys... I appreciate the mirror and thoughts greatly.

INT, do you know, I was going to respond on your post to Wonderin, that women ARE that simple, and that I'd guess that your W's top EN is admiration. I didn't post there, because wonderin was in pain, and my post didn't belong there. So I feel so validated to come to post that and find this here!

Have you asked her to post here?

If I were her, the first thing I'd want from you is actual, truthful interest in me and my thoughts. Try this: try to keep yourself from actually making any 'pronouncements' for one day. Then try for another day. See if you can make it a habit to try to melt into the woodwork for awhile, not have any opinions, ask her about hers, tell her you can't figure something out (find something!) and that you'd like to hear her take on it because it's throwing you for a loop. Could be world peace, or something as simple as why this particular intersection always has more accidents than any other. Or whether the toys from China have always had that much lead, we just never checked. Or why she thinks her job doesn't offer dental insurance. Whatever. Just get her talking. And respect what she says.

Even as you say this to us, and think you are being humble, you are coming across as extremely confident, smart, learned (and we learned ones are the most arrogant!), and wise. Even the strongest person could wilt under that.

I think you may be smothering her and she just needs to feel valuable. And not in a wife way. In a human being way.

I have not asked her to post. In all actuality, I fear her response that I have posted our 'life' here. I fear that she will read my posts and be angry. I don't fear that I have misrepresented things how I believe them to be. But that, she won't even discuss things with me privately, I really don't think she would like to know that I am discussing them publically. Anonymous or not...

I would love for her to post. I would really love for her to come to this site and just read Harley's information. I would love for her to feel comfortable posting about her feelings and fears/thoughts/desires. I don't think she gets any feedback except from a single friend who "agrees" with whatever her perception is, whatever that might be.

If I did tell her about this place, I worry that she would come here and read my posts, and become angry. Although, I don't know that it would make a difference. I would love to hear her post her concerns about me. At least I would know what my parts are and it would give me something to work on. Please don't think for one moment, that I believe everything is her fault. Don't even for an instant, think that I want to fix her because I am fine just the way I am. I would love nothing more than for EVEYTHING to be because of me, because then I could go about working on the problems myself. Unfortunately, I am a dense and probably deaf and blind man... and can't see what is right in front of me.

Thanks Cat...

Oh, sorry, INT, I didn't pick up on the "she'd get angry" part. I've left the MB page up many times, waiting for H to get curious. Maybe one day. I think too many of us come here without a place IRL where we can talk to folks who've walked in our shoes. Even my IRL friends with the same issues don't approach issues in the same MB "let's find the POJA" way.

But your W's specific issues are also really well addressed with FlyLady.net. You could check it out, and if it looks good, you could try it yourself to set an example. Maybe it would pique her curiosity. If nothing else, you'd learn how to talk with someone with self-esteem issues in a way that leaves them energized and motivated.

Ignored, I think although you are well-educated that you may not be very well informed about how people raised in an abusive family of origin act. You state that your dw had a verbally abusive alcoholic step-father and an emotionally unavailable mother whom until recently she didn't get along with. Then you say that you don't think that she was overly traumatized by the situation, and that her mother says your wife was a mean child.

Based on that kind of childhood and a previous failed marriage your dw probably greatly admired your stability and intellect. You seemed like a safe place for her. Now she is acting inappropriately you feel and is over the top in her social interactions. It may be that you are the first safe person she has found, and so she is acting out some of her pain and hurt. Obviously this isn't the right way to do it, but she needs to be encouraged to work out these feelings in a more appropriate manner.

Based on your description, I would guess that you have developed a sort of parental role with your wife rather than as partners. This may be why the sex stopped after the marriage vows. She may be starting to "act out" against that parent as she begins to feel safer with you.

The reason I say this is "been there done that" myself. I had the same sort of childhood as your spouse, and yes I was was traumatized and likely she was too, even if she doesn't show it. An important part of existing in a disfunctional home life is to pretend that everything is all right and normal.

The first year or two in any marriage is quite tough as people move from courtship to marriage, and when you add foo issues, raising children from previous marriages, and university attendance it can be very rough.

Do you have a good idea of what she considers your love busters? She is very resistent right now to making any changes in her behavior, but she may respond more lovingly to you if you take the first step.

You might say something like "Is there anything that I could do differently that really bugs you now?" I'd avoid the MB-speak, but just get the point across. She may not answer the first time, especially if she thinks you aren't sincere, but keep at it.

The safer that you can help her feel, but with the addition of good boundaries so that she knows what is acceptable, the easier she will find it to trust you.

This post is perceptive. I found in my marriage that often it seemed I was being put into a parental role. And at the end this was interpreted as we had been living more as 'roommates' than as husband and wife.

Your suggestions on attempting to give his wife a sense of being valuable as a person, as a human being are good. We should all relate to one another with this goal in mind.
Tired clearly places much value on expressing himself in great detail and in the best king's english. This is not a fault.Reading his posts is painful for me because of the effort he makes to paint as accurate a word picture as he can of his circumstances. It's painful due to the fact its like reading a review of my relationship with my former wife. Tired repeats many times over how much he loves his wife.This is good. He seems to have a need similar to mine in wanting to be assured-often-of his wife's love for him. Verbally, physically ( playfully, not sexually only),emotionally,etc. I don't think this can be criticised. This forum thread is filling up with sound suggestions as to what he might try to bring about the atmosphere he desires for his marriage. One of mutual love and respect moving toward that 'oneness' we hope to find with our chosen partner.Sixteen years followed by an excruciating rending. I guess I am jaded. I see Tired fighting this uphill battle only to find it was a war he couldn't win. He cannot be her therapist, her father, her big brother and be her husband all at the same time. It doesn't work out well at all.I could have been my wife's friend. In being that, and nothing beyond that, when she would become abusive and disrepectful of me as a person, as a human being with sensitivity and feelings, I could separate from her and tell her I'd see her another day. As here husband I couldn't do that.

So ,when I read of his situation, which is so like mine was for many years knowing how it turns out, it is difficult for me not to cut to the chase and suggest he takes his losses and put his assets into another bank.

I read somewhere once -and this isn't to say marriage isn't hard work -that if when relating to someone it doesn't seem easy to do.If it doesn't feel natural but seems to be painfully difficult then it isn't meant to be. I concur with this wholeheartedly. I just wish I had put it into practice when it was my turn. Tired may be trying to put the square block into the triangular hole. Why? Because he loves her and wants what he began to work. Not because he fails to see the shapes are not the same. So, does he want to spend years trying to figure out a way to make his life with her enjoyable and rewarding when thus far it appears to be mission impossible? He may choose this. It's his life.I also sense he may regard the alternative as not having tried everything there is to try. Which-to me-means he is more the therapist than the husband and let me put this into the vernacular of the day...it sucks to be the therapist and then be wanting as the husband.


He wants and needs to be regarded by her as her husband, friend, companion, lover. If she needs a father, a therapist, a big brother and is looking at him as any of these then she will never be able to fulfill her proper roll with him.

As he said, there is a depth in all of this which would take a book to fathom.

It occurs to me her behavior suggests she is dragging a load of luggage she can't release from her past or past
relationship/s. She may feel the failure of the past and is unable to file it away to be fully involved with the present. But, here again, we are playing counselor: fine for us-not so for Tired.

Ultimately, it is his decision whether to stay or go. But if he stays I think he will need to accept he is not going to receive the affirmation and warm fuzzy love he would like to have.

Assuming she has the problems we are concluding that she has (we don't really know), it is possible if she could ever come to the point where she's willing to undergo therapy to exorcise her inner demons. I have hope that everyone can do that, and to do that, they usually have to have someone in their corner, loving them (or else having hit rock bottom). I totally feel for you, but I feel you're allowing your filter to block out potential reasons for hope, not the least of which is the early stage at which he's asking for help.

I don't know how to be someone I am not, so please forgive my postings as the long winded voicings they turn out to be.

I do have hope, unfortunately, I was a psychologist before I changed professions early in my career. I went to counselling for a couple years at the end and after my first marriage. I have read so many books I could start a marriage library. I posted, thought, etc about everything I could think of at one point or another. Sometimes education can be a curse. Not because you KNOW everything... but because you feel that you need to LEARN everything. I don't do well, NOT KNOWING something which bothers me. Now don't read this as I bug her because I don't understand her. But I am perplexed and at a loss, simply because I have no idea about why things are the way they are. Things that seem so clear to me are so opaque to her. Things that must seem so obvious to her and others, are completely lost on me. Not because I don't WANT to see them, but because I simply can't see them yet.

I did not mean to belittle the degree of trauma her upbringing has caused for her. I do believe that her past is exactly why she has such difficulty now. What I also believe, however, is that she needs to speak with someone who will challenge her 'thoughts' about current issues, because she bases everything which happens now on her past experiences. Understandable, sure, but the thing is... I am NOT her drunk step-father. I am NOT her absent mother. I am NOT her cheating ex-husband. However, she treats me as if I am all of them rolled up into one. AND what is WORSE, is that me trying to help her see that I am not these people feeds into the whole issue.

She needs someone outside, and impartial to say, "Now... you see it this way, what makes you think this and what do you think his TRUE motives were in that instance." As it stands, I am simply the person involved, and therefore, cannot be trusted or must have some angle regarding anything I say. I did not feel this way before we were married. I just look at her, and see someone whom I really believe I could help to feel safe, secure, and great... IF she would just let me in. If she would just break down, and love, trust, and be loving in return.

I don't know where the shield came from, but it seemed to appear as soon as I put the ring on her finger. Like I said before, it was like as soon as she had something to lose, she chose to go into prevent defense, and mitigate the loss rather than move forward and win our marriage. I need to be able to say that is my sense to a counselor, and let him/her look at the situation, and perhaps relay that possibility as a cause of our interactions. AND help ME understand what I need to do differently in order to help our situation as well. I feel like I am wrist deep in a patient's skull, and can't reach my forceps. I can see everything that I feel needs to be done, but can't do a single thing about it. And unfortunately, I am at a loss because I just can't think outside of what I understand. And the forceps won't help me out any.

----------------

But I must say... I didn't marry her to be her father... her mother... her counselor... her brother....

I married her to be her husband, her protector, her provider, her friend, her confidant, her children's 'Daddy', and her LOVER. I don't feel that I have had the opportunity to be anything more than her provider... and minimally our girls' Daddy.


I married her to be MY Lover, companion, confidant, and friend. What I feel I have received thus far is a cook and housekeeper. Neither of which I need in the least...

Your post sounds sincere. Then why does it bother me? I guess I feel sorry for your wife. I would DESPISE being married to someone who viewed me as damaged and 'broken'...something that needed to be repaired.

I think people have different levels of need for love, attention, affirmation and affection...from very low, to very high. And I believe we have a tendency to give at a level we feel comfortable in receiving. More is not good to low-need people. All that touchy-feely attention--even in the name of romance--can drive them away. Even a person who falls in the middle of the spectrum with middle-of-the-road needs can be pushed away, can lose desire.

For the higher-need person to have any hope of getting the attention he wants, he must NEVER accuse his partner of being broken or damaged because her needs are different than his. That is always certain to backfire.

The other issue I have is the allegations of conflict-avoidance. In order for someone to be labeled a 'conflict avoider' in a marriage there has to be conflict. Why is there so much conflict to avoid?

An argument is just two bullies trying to be right and to get the other to shut-up and listen. If someone is avoiding the conflict of an argument, it is usually because there is one bully instead of two.

I am beginning to think you have a sizeable ego. When you spoke of education being a curse going on to say "because you KNOW everything" and so on I remembered reading long ago that the one sure thing about learning is you discover there is always more to learn. It is just the nature of the beast. You can never know everything. Also, if you please, intelligence is not in knowing everything but in knowing where to look to find what you need to know.

I am wondering if you have a life aside from analyzing your wife and how she responds to you throughout the day. Do you go to the health club, or grab one the girls and go out to shop, or just take a walk and say nothing, or to the ice cream store and buy her/them a cone and let them do all the talking. Just wondering.

I disagree with education being a curse. I would add that knowing how to apply it is equally important.

You met her, you began to have those 'love' feelings, you may have observed she was in need of some kind of corrective influence to become all that she could be and ,lo and behold, here was your opportunity to put all that educaton to use and with someone you loved on top of that. No need to look any further -or deeper- as I am sure she will appreciate all I can do for her and respond to meet my every need. Just wondering.

Did you really and objectively love her with all her warts and comedos or were you in love with the vision of what you could help her to become? Just wondering.

Love , love, love. Hear it a lot. To listen to my 17 year old you'd think she loves everybody. When she says goodbye to her friends - any and all - she concludes with "I love you". But rarely does she say that to me. And when she does, it has little more emotion in it than it takes to swat a mosquito.

Love, def. (best I ever heard) Setting the direction of your will toward the good of another. To love someone, in truth, is to do that. And, like it or not, it says nothing regarding their reciprocal response. Something here for all of us to work toward when it comes to loving someone else.

You want to make it work. You and the woman you married. There must be things about her you can admire, can compliment, can ,aloud, say how much you like. Try just letting her be her for awhile, doing what she likes to do. What's more, expect NOTHING in return.


Do it for several months. Forget yourself. When she isn't asking anything of your time, go and do something on your own. Build a model ship, paint the ceiling, read some Dr. Suess and laugh out loud. Most importantly, don't spend a micro second putting your wife on a slide under a microscope to see what makes her tick.Love her according to the above definition and leave her alone. And strive to love her daughters. That will, in time, put medals in your war chest.

If after you have sacrificially done this ,she kicks you to the curb, tell her gently she will have to buy a village sticker or waste management won't pick you up.

Finally, one man to another, I am going to be a little sarcastic with you. Quit your sniveling and be about the business at hand. Less time on the computer is more time doing something more productive. See suggestions above. Take care....

Man to man...

Thanks

Something to consider:

I admire and respect your dedication to working out the problems in your M. You sound very confused, hurt, and yet dare I say hopeful. Kudos for coming to MB to better your relationship skills, there is certainly a wealth of information to be found for the curious and for the desparate.

Having been in a position that I thought it "helpful" to analyze my spouse, I can say that you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. That time would be far better spent analyzing yourself. The same could be said for the sessions with your counsellor. I'm surprised this educated individual is encouraging the discussion of your wife's psychoses during your IC sessions. It amounts to little more than gossip and speculation, b/c only your W can illuminate what is going on in her head. I'm curious as to why you haven't focused on your own faults and issues, there or here... How can we help you if you are only listing your W's symptoms? She is not here to ask, debate, or accept the advice you seek. So I'd like to suggest, if possible, begin to focus less on her in the relationship and more on you in the relationship. How do you meet her needs... How do you not meet her needs... What needs of yours would you like met... What your LBers might be and if you have or need a plan to address that... Etc. Do you see where I'm going?

What say you on the theory of co-dependency? Would you say your W's emotions and attention set your mood? Furthermore, Do you see a connection with spending your time diagnosing your spouse and a parent/child mentallity in your M? To be frank, you may be clever enough to diagnose her issues, determine exactly which dose of Prosac to prescribe, and get the number and references of a very competent therapist... But it all amounts to nothing if your W does not think she has a problem. If YOU do all this work, she has no ownership of the problem or solution, and will feel she is being lectured or bullied by the person who s/b her lvr. Big-time romance killer. (which begs me to wonder how your W would describe the luggage incedent) For that matter, she might be depressed b/c she's unhappy with her M, not that it is a good reason, but certainly reason enough to concentrate on being the hubby that meets her needs the way she likes, in order to bring her out of withdrawal. Do you know what are your W's top Love Languages?

I'm not suggesting you are the cause of her depression, just that there is little you can do about it and you can only fix yourself and protect yourself with healthy boundaries...

I hope you are not taking this as an unbased tangeant, because I'm speaking from the lessons (based on what I've read) of BTDT. I recommend you focus on yourself, learning healthy boundaries and communication (as it sounds like something is being lost in translation).

My LBs to her... that I know of would include.

Answering most all her questions really bothers her, I have begun to say "I don't know." when it is not the truth.

Having an opinion which she seems to take as voicing and edict. Often, I just don't say things, because if I say something contrary to her, she acts as though I am telling her "NO !!!!" So I just don't say anything very often, when I would at least like to have an opinion heard.

Withdrawing... I have been attacked so often, I used to fight or argue with her, but now when she jumps my case, I typically withdraw prior to the argument incurring. If I am to say anything I will quite often get the treatment I had when I mentioned how I felt with the shoes in Chicago... so I just avoid it sometimes. She THEN is angry about my withdrawl instead.

Not taking my shoes off in the house... I grew up wearing shoes in my house until age 38... I now take them off about 95% of the time without issue. Sometimes I forget or have to grab something quickly and you would think I just drug a coal bucket purposefully all over the floor. She openly bashes me in front of the kids. Then, after I tried to always remember and still failed, she made a big deal about just Giving up... but she still holds it against me, because she never misses a chance to mention how 'dirty the carpet is'. What angers me, is she will allow our youngest daughter (her biological girl) to wear whatever, whereever, whenever. If I say anything... she says she is only 5... like dirt obviously doesn't stick to 5 years old's shoes you idiot.

Early in our marriage, she seemed to act like any sexual overature was an LB... I just don't anylonger. It hurts more to try and be turned down than not to try at all.

I have gained about 15 lbs since we have known each other. Nothing since we were married. I havn't gone to the gym as often since we have been married. I think that I need to go more often both for my physical health as well as to just get out of the house. I am 6'2"... so while the 15 lbs isn't wanted, it isn't quite as bad as it could be. Not to diminish its importance. I am 6'2" and 220 currently.

There are more... but I have to get out of here at the moment.

You are arguing over dirty carpets? Think about it--carpets!

What woman wants to live with soiled carpets? So when your wife complains you say, "Well, you let the five-year-old do it." You studied behavioral sciences? What text book did you get that comeback out of? Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus where all the carpets are clean. But your answer about the five-year old came out of Uranus!

Fix the carpet problem NOT YOUR WIFE! Pull them up and install some resilient flooring or other attractive no-care flooring. Put down area rugs. When they start looking shabby, you buy new ones.

Answering most all her questions really bothers her, I have begun to say "I don't know." when it is not the truth.-
IgnoredNTired2

For what it's worth, women ask many questons without really wanting the man to answer them. They want only for the man to listen. They will usually nudge you if they,in fact, would like the question answered. And then begin with the simple answer, the one without all the unnecessary details. If more information is desired, she will say something akin to, "Go on". Otherwise resist the temptation to expound on the subject.

Do not take her not wanting an answer or a lengthy answer as an insult to your intelligence or store of knowledge. They seem to process information in a different manner than does a man.

Do not take her not wanting an answer or a lengthy answer as an insult to your intelligence or store of knowledge. They seem to process information in a different manner than does a man.
*************************

why did I find this so funny? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

If I am a 'they".....this is true. I do process information differently than "you" seem to, Ignored.
I will often make comments that come out as rhetorical questions that I am NOT asking H to solve for me....but, listen to my frustration and hopefully offer some understanding.

i get the feeling your W is as lost about you (and feels just as ignored or misunderstood) as you are about her.

nia, Appreciate your input. It is good to hear from 'they'.

laughter is the best medicine I have been told.

peace....

laughter is the best medicine I have been told.

***************************

it helps me not take things so personally...but, i have learned that I need to be careful that my H does not think i am laughing at him......or belittling him, which of course he does when he takes things personally......So,
I guess the best medicine would be to not take things personally. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now, closer to home... I am a 'brain-doc'. And one of my BIGGEST problems is that I forget random things which occur out of the norm. Like, to pick up dry cleaning, I will constantly forget. I can remember every detail about a patient or that patient's family, but I have a very good chance to forget their name. I was top of my class, and yet, I will forget why I took off a half day of work. In essence, I live with 2 other people helping me to remember to do the things which are out of the ordinary. I live with an OUTLOOK encoded phone, in order to remember to get to a meeting or pick up the kids.------ Just like me, my wife, my assistant, Outlook, sticky-notes do for me. .-IgnoredNTired2

Perhaps you recall my positing the notion there must be something about your wife which you can compliment; which you can appreciate about her. You neglected to mention this.
Evidently, when she isn't asking you to remove your shoes before walking on the carpet or finding fault with the socks you're wearing on a shoe buying outing, she is reminding you to pick up the dry cleaning or stop for a gallon of milk before arriving home. Every little positive can't hurt to keep in mind. Consider this a reminder of one of those little positives. You're welcome.

I have spent some time thinking about everything said here on the message boards. And I have had some insights into myself at least. I recognize changes which have occurred to me over the last 18 months. I recognize I have become sullen for one. That is one thing I have never been before. It is like a wet blanket is constantly weighting down my shoulders without relief. I have tried and tried to shake that sensation over at least the last year, not exactly understanding where it was coming from. I recognized it just the other day. It comes from my interaction and feelings associated with my wife. I have no good feelings anymore concerning our relationship. I feel no base structure... no comradery... no association... no friendship... and certainly no love between us any longer. I feel strained in almost all interactions with her, and I have for a long time.

I didn't recognize the cause of this until someone above pointed out that I sound resentful. That is it completely, and I understand that that emotion and thought pattern is within myself, construed upon my marriage due to our interactions. I am resentful. As difficult as it is to admit it, I resent the immediate change in my feelings of love which I attribute to my wife since the day of our marriage.

I recognize that it is my attribution of my feelings directed at her which causes my thought processes to maintain those same feelings. I also understand that feelings are totally within oneself, and that two people viewing/experiencing the same occurrance can have two completely incongruous 'feelings' about it. That is immaterial, because my situation is that I feel bad. I feel unloved. I feel unimportant. I feel uncared for and uncared about. I feel like I come in 11th in a field of 10. I used to think that I was unheard, but now I no longer believe this to be true. I think that truthfully, her choices are simply to be/act this way concerning me.

My part has been to maintain our marriage with a hopefulness that we will be able to communicate at some point and understand each other. And in so we would meet each other's needs. That was when I thought that we merely needed to find an avenue through which to communicate. I don't believe that there is such an avenue any longer. There are too many roadblocks in her view of any of my suggestions, and she refuses to suggest anything of her own choice. While I obviously can't read her mind, I can understand her actions, at least in my estimation and how they are viewed by me. They simply are to ignore the issue completely. I can't accept that as being within my marriage. I am not the right guy to be ignored nor dismissed.

The resentment stems from the fact that this is NOT a 10-20 year relationship which was fine early on, but that has slacked off over time. It does NOT have a basis of bedrock love which was developed early in the marriage, when needs were being met and understandings and commitments were solidified. The resentment comes from the drastic change which occurred within the course of about 2 months immediately surrounding our wedding. While I recognize that everything including love trails off and must be maintained and fed carefully, I don't feel as if I ever even had the little initial elation of marriage. And there certainly has been no benefit since marriage.

It comes down to the fact and feeling that every reason why I wanted to be married in the first place has not come to fruition. I never needed someone to clean, cook, and take care of the kids. I married to enjoy life with a companion, confidant, friend, and lover. I resent the feeling that not only don't I have any of those things, I feel like I married someone who chooses not to even engage in trying to form those bonds and fulfill those desires. In essence, I feel as though I married someone who simply chooses not to care.

You know... as sheepishly as I say this, I will be open and honest. The lack of sex in my relationship has so overcrowded my feelings, that it is definitely hard to see anything else. Why do I feel unloved? No sex... Why do I feel that our honeymoon was disappointing? No sex... Why do I feel no comradery? No sex... Why do I feel ignored? Because I have tried to explain my desire for her intimately.... and still no sex. Why do I feel little friendship? Because I have tried to get babysitters to be alone sometimes to engender more of an intimate mood... no sex. Why do I feel resentful about our wedding night? ... no sex. Why do I feel almost every negative feeling I have associated with my marriage right now?... no sex. As childish as some might think it is, the simple fact that I am so sexually frustrated while living with my wife has grown to overshadow almost everything else in our relationship. It is sad, really.... because it has become such a central theme in my feelings, that I actually don't watch TV much any longer, because I get a truely sick feeling when a show might have a love scene where the woman shows that she cares about the man. ... There was even a stupid Pizza Hut commercial which showed a woman dressed in lingerie, calling her husband upstairs and him being an idiot... I realized just how frustrated and angry I had become when I became angry and upset while watching that commercial. That is just sad... and ridiculous in all actuality. But it is the truth none-the-less.

I don't know if there are other things in our marriage which would matter nerely as much, if we had that one part of our marriage working well. I really don't know. But I do know that without that part of our marriage functioning, I constantly feel inadequate and down. I feel upset, on edge, and most of all unloved. Yes... some might think it whining.... some might think it childish... but it is just the fact that I feel that I am wasted. I have so much potential to be a much better man than I am. I am ashamed that I can't muster up the guy I feel I am, because I constantly feel unloved. I want to feel like I have a purpose to do all those things of which I am capable. Atruistically, you might think I should do them regardless... and that in so doing, things would change. All I can say, is that I have tried and tried and tried to no avail. I have been taught that those actions, those gestures of love do not have the same effect on her as they would typically have in my estimation, on most women. I have been taught that me doing nice things does not equal a reciprocation of nice things in return. I have learned that openly relaying needs, desires, and hopes can actually lead to derision and a weapon to be used later, rather than information to be cultivated and grown. These things I do not understand, and choose not to accept any longer.

Ignored, you have valid reasons for feeling that way. If your W is unwilling to participate in the M, you have no M. You have a roommate. So you have to do what you have to do. If you really feel you've tried everything, and it sounds like you have, you should consider ending it. I would suggest a last-ditch effort, though, before doing that. Find an outside interest, someone who knows both of you but who won't take sides, and give them the story. Ask her to give her story. If she's unwilling, then give hers the best you can - from HER point of view. If you don't do that, it won't be fair for the helper to honestly give you an opinion. Ask that person what he/she sees, what advice he/she would give, and then honestly listen. That way, if you do walk away, you'll know you gave it your best effort, even according to someone outside the relationship.

The truly sad thing is that I believe the Marriage counselor... who has by default become my personal counselor... feels that there is little chance of success. He has seen and spoken with her several times, some with me in attendance and some without. Not for quite some time, because she refuses to go back, but enough for him to have at least a chance at understanding the situation. I feel that for several sessions, he has had little thought about success in our marriage. He has not voiced such, but you can tell the differences in the way he spoke about marriage early compared to what he says now. He is supportive, but there really is no significant thought about changes. And his assumption as is mine, is that no changes will occur without both of us engaging in the marriage. I also know that he doesn't WANT to believe that there is little hope. He has asked for her to come in several times, but when I relay that, she simply refuses out of hand. And now, we are far to 'gone' to simply be nice to each other.

It saddens me and infuriates me at the same moment. I am saddened, because I still can see so much potential. It infuriates me because I don't understand why the change? Why not just be who you are before you are married so the decision to marry or not can be made appropriately? It aggravates me beyond measure to feel like I was duped into marriage. And whether that is the case or not, I have had no evidence to the contrary which I can see. She ignores me... she ignores my children. She lavishes everything onto her girls and herself. She ensures that they are well taken care of and she is going to school to ensure that will always be the case. She won't even stop by and say goodnight to my boys, and yet she tells me I need to continually strive to develop a better relationship with the girls.

The incongruence is that she has been very nice to me for about the last week. She is kind for the most part, she has definitely been trying to stay 'up' and keep things going 'well'. There have been times recently, where I have definitely seen a 'change' in her typical way of dealing with things, and it is very nice. There were a couple of times where we would have typically withdrawn, during which she chose to stay up and involved. The problem is now mine in that I have no faith. I have no faith in the change... I have the same behaviors I have developed since marriage in that I 'felt' the beginning of my own withdrawl, whereby she 'changed that feeling' by maintaining interaction. It is a glimmer of how it should have been all along, but I have now become the problem instead of being effected by the problem. My interaction over the last week has been suspect... anticipatory... guarded. That probably best fits my feelings right now. I want to burst with joy and love... but there is no way that I can afford to do so, which just magnifies my frustration. For 18 months I have endured a short burst of 'good times' interposed with long times of negative. I have become suspect of everything good, simply because it has always been followed by bad. There is no baseline from which to work. I have no confidence in our marriage, because I don't even feel married.

You know... before I was married, I would clearly have stated that honesty would have been my primary EN. Followed by others with SF being about 4th or 5th. But, to my almost guilt and shame, I have become so frustrated at the lack of SF, that I see almost everything through 'deprived' glasses. I know that it effects how I deal with her. I ABSOLUTELY know that my marriage suffers due to ME because of this issue. I am shocked as a matter of fact, at how much effective abstinence has affected my personality and demeanor. I am certainly NOT proud of my thoughts concerning self pity. I feel ashamed that something as 'worldly' as sex or the lack thereof has set me on edge to this degree. I also recognize that it is not JUST sex... but that I feel discarded. I never recognized that I placed such an emphasis of my self worth and well being as a worthwhile partner, on my sexual intimacy and interactions. I wish it was not the case. I wish that I felt worth as a companion through another means, and that this was just a tiny aside, which was beneficial, but hardly necessary. The fact is, however, that I get very little of the other things either. I get no admiration... I get no financial satisfaction... I get no warm feelings when I see her interact with my boys... I don't see appreciation for me in the least. And therefore, when I don't see anything like those things, and there is no PERSONAL sense of worth from my wife, I end up feeling the way I do now. The funny thing is, I can get the admiration, at least in part, from my children and the people I work with. I can get the financial acknowledgement by paying the bills and ensuring my family is well taken care of and taking care of retirement. I can get the feeling that my boys are OK, by putting energy and thought into them. But I can't get anything such as a personal love feeling... I can't get intimate love... I can't get intimate (non-sexual) approval... from anyone other than my wife. THOSE ARE THE REASONS FOR WHICH I MARRIED. The things NO ONE in the world can give me other than my confidant, my friend, my lover,... my wife. I can get everything I need from somewhere else, but those are exclusively her right... but also her responsibility.

My wife is very beautiful. There is no doubt about it, and it certainly had an effect on me very early on in our dating. But that was only a very small part of what I learned to love about her. She was great on all sorts of non-personal things during our courtship, these have changed in alot of ways as well, but are of less importance to me because I can meet those needs elsewhere. But personally, she was very intimate with me... she fulfilled all sorts of desires which I didn't even know I had, but which I have since come to crave. Now, I feel very much like I have a Ferrari sitting in the garage, but I can't reach the keys. I can see it through the window, but I am not allowed to touch. Every morning it pulls itself into the driveway, and everyone can see that I have a Ferrari. But little do they know that I have no chance to drive it. I get no satisfaction from having it with me. I have all the responsibilities of ownership such as upkeep, insurance, etc. Without even a glimmer of a chance to actually utilize it in the fullest sense. People see her and say to me, 'Man you better treat her well.' and 'You are so lucky. You guys look great together.' etc. But truthfully, I would rather she be half as pretty, twice as heavy, and just love me as if I mattered and she actually had fun loving me.

I would ask...

Why did you marry? I don't mean 'because I was in love'... I mean, what were your expectations of marriage? What did you believe marriage would be like? What did you think YOUR responsibilities to your spouse would be? What did you believe your spouses responsibilities to you would be?

I don't know whether my thinking is so askew any more that I can't even think straight. I see everything through such strained eyes and heart, that I don't trust what is right in front of me any longer. This is not ME... it is what I have become.

You have no reason to be ashamed for feeling SF is so important to your marriage. It IS important, and it's very normal for you to be feeling all this.

That said, all I can think to say is that you need to make a change. What kind of change would have to be up to you. But you are getting far too depressed to keep this going. Make a change for your kids' sakes, before something worse happens.

SF is a completely legitimate EN. It is listed on this site with all the other ENs.

From the way you describe your feelings, it is obvious that SF is a way you experience being loved. This isn't some perverted desire of yours - it is an EN that is not being met. You should not feel guilty for having an EN.

There are tools described on this site for negotiating your needs, and for restoring love so you each can start meeting each others' needs. I think they are good tools to have even if the M ends up in D.

Have you eliminated all LBs?

Is there something you could be doing that would explain your W's being nicer lately?

Sex is not "worldly" when it's in a loving relationship. Sex is a gift from Heaven above. It's also the glue of a marriage.

Yes... I told her about 2 weeks ago that I needed some concrete things to happen to maintain our relationship. I explain this more in depth in the initial post. But essentially, we have had a very rough time since day one. She refused to go to counseling, read, converse, or engage in discussion anything concerning our marriage. She would listen if I spoke, but very little input. I essentially told her that if she wanted to remain married to me, that I needed her to do some things to help us. I said that I needed for her to see a counselor herself, since she won't go with me. She needed to set up an intesive weekend away from everyone to help us reconnect such as MB weekend. I had tried to do this a couple times but she refused. And that I needed for her to set up a consistent time each week that we could discuss our relationship and what we both needed.

Some have said these are ultimatums. I guess in a way they are... because I have tried everything I can think of to change our situation, and truthfully, I don't see anything but these potentially helping. IMO She needs to be able to talk about us to someone who will be impartial and help her to decide whether her perception is really what is going on. She also needs someone who will help her determine whether she wants to be married, and if she does... what that means and what her input and responsibilities are to make that happen. And finally, I have tried to discuss things with her, but to no avail. She just listens, but has no or little input. I can't do anything differently if I don't have a clue what I am doing. I can't be better if I don't know what I need to be better at. I have tried to get her to talk with me, but she just won't.

I then explained that if she felt that these things were unacceptable or too much, and it was OK and that all she had to do was let me know. I said that if she didn't want these things, that it was fine. If she felt that these were too much, that I would respect that, and that I would like to make it through the Holidays for the Kids sake, and we could split up in mid January. I asked her to just please let me know one way or the other.

She has not said a word. She has shown me nothing other than kindness and truthfully... love. She has been nice, hugging me significantly more than the months prior. She has actually been more upbeat than normal. But... she has not mentioned anything. And this 'niceness' has occurred several times before, but to no avail. The same issues still are there, and after a week or two... raise their head back into our marriage.

If we are to make it, I think these things or some variant there-on must occur. Since I can't make it happen, I left it to her to do so if she felt invested enough in our marriage to want to continue. I have tried to get her to become engaged in our marriage. She can see we aren't doing well, but I can't figure out what she would like to do about it. I have asked her time and time again, but I have not heard anything in return. I have asked her to choose something... anything... to try differently. The only thing that happens is that she will be Nicer for a while... but it doesn't address the problems... it just makes daily life a little easier to deal with. I love it... don't get me wrong, and my wife with a smile and a twinkle in her eye makes my heart flutter. But, without addressing our issues... such as intimacy... conversation... time alone... etc. It is all window dressing, and doesn't last long.

I love it... don't get me wrong. And I believe she thinks that being nicer will just fix everything. But it has not done anything over the course of multiple attempts during our 18 month marriage. It just feels like another coat of paint over a rusty piece of metal. Looks good for a while, but doesn't really fix the issue.

I would love to engage in our marriage with her. I would love for her to say... "INT... I need this that and the other ENs worked on..." And for her to also say " What do you really need for ME to do for you... My love?" That's all... just that... and to mean it... and then to work on doing it...

INT, I hesitate to post this, but I think you are seriously seeking all input, so I will. I don't know why, but the way you describe your wife reminds me of something, and I can't remember what it was - a book or a movie, maybe even something real in my past. Anyway, it's an impression I've carried with me for decades and your post just made it resurface. But what it was, was a 'picture' of a marriage, wherein one of the two was in something she never meant to be in, something she didn't understand before she said yes, didn't realize what it really meant. So once she got in it, she just resigned herself.

That is the word that keeps popping up when I think of your W - she seems resigned to your marriage, not happy, not mad, just...without emotion, because for whatever reason, she has decided it's not what she planned to get out of life, but that there's nothing else she wants, either.

Nothing to mean that you're wrong, or you've done anything wrong. More like...she thought she knew what she wanted, she went ahead and accepted M and motherhood, and then realized she had made a mistake. But she wasn't going to back out of it, it's what she agreed to, so she's just going to sit it out, until it's over with.

Does that make sense? Of course, I have no earthly idea if your wife is feeling this way; it just reminds me of what I've described, based on what you've told us. And I know that might be painful to hear, but I can't help but want you to consider it, for your own sake. If it were possibly true, that you just aren't what she really planned on and that now she's just depressed about what she chose, I'd rather you find out the truth, so you can both move on. And your kids have to be sensing it, and you don't want them growing up picking their own dysfunctional mates.

I know a lot of women, especially from my age range (40-60), who were raised to think they had to marry, that it didn't particularly mattered if they married for love, as long as they married. I hope I'm wrong, that there's a specific issue you can address. But maybe you can just ask her if this might be what 'it' is.

I do believe that marriage isn't the panacea which she had anticipated. I also believe that living with me has not been exactly what she expected. I hear what you are saying. But truthfully, I don't get that feeling. It seems more like a lack of skill or knowledge on what to do differently rather than resignation to the choice. That might be coming about, but I don't believe that it is the main issue. It occurred almost immediately upon marrying.

It is more of a damage mitigation type defense. Or 'I don't know what to do... so I will just hunker down and hope it gets better.' kind of mentality. I can't explain the lack of sex... it was immediate and hasn't changed. She used to be sensual, playful, inviting, and interactive. That immediately stopped when we became married. I mean our wedding night and honeymoon.

She listend to the CD from Dr. Laura last winter called "The proper care and feeding of a husband." She became must more nice, interactive, and slightly but certainly more noticably sensual... actually initiating sex once or twice. I made the mistake of saying something along the line of "See how well we get along when things like this happen."... something like that, acknowledging the change and encouraging more. She became 'upset' and just stopped. She even said that I shouldn't have said anything, and in so doing, she found she didn't want to do it any more. That was a year ago... I have essentially stopped even trying to initiate love making at all for the last 6-8 months with a couple 'try again' type trys intermixed without any long term success. She has rarely... like twice initiated it in that time. We have had sex about 5-6 times in that time. Not even birthday or anniversary sex. Even though our anniversary hotel overlooked the Big Sur Coast...

Then my next thought is that something traumatic happened that shut her down. Not necessarily in the M, maybe it was something repressed from childhood that surfaced because of getting married, those weird kinds of things, you know? But those are the kinds of things that have to be addressed in real therapy, so...

If you still feel she likes you, then I can only suggest become more creative in seeking solutions until you find the one that clicks with her. Read everything you can get your hands on; attend seminars; etc. Just keep being honest. That kind of thing. Sorry I'm not more helpful.

Here's a glimpse into *my* mind, maybe it is similar to how her mind works...

(scary thought, I know!)


If I am feeling ashamed of some behavior, and I make an effort to do better, I do NOT want to be praised... this was true when I was a kid, more so than it is now. But still, being praised for something that I recognize I should have been doing all along, brings me face-to-face with how bad I had been before. Of course, the delivery makes a huge difference too.

When I read "See how well we get along when things like this happen" I cringed. That sounds to me a lot like "I told you so." and I probably would have also felt bad.

I like what you said here. I regard it as a valuable insite to be applied to all sorts of relationships. I can remember growing up, whenever I would try to improve in some way, I much preferred hearing only the response to the present attempt rather than how it compares to previous ones.I could see for myself the positive gains by doing it better than I had before.This,then, bred incouragement to continue doing the best I could including seeing where I could improve still more the next time I did the thing. I am thinking of my experience with my father.When he would appraise my effort, as I mentioned above, without any reference to past attempts with their shortcomings, I felt accepted, felt a companionship and welcomed the benefit of his experience.

Yes, exactly!

When my mom would praise me, she had a way of doing it... in a sort of exaggerated way, I guess... that just made me feel horrible. I would've rather she had said nothing at all, and it made me feel self-conscious, embarrassed, if I ever did the good behavior again.

I like the way your dad did things.

I see what you are saying Jayne... I suspect perhaps that was the case. I don't really know. Looking at it from your perspective and how she acted when I said it, and afterwards, when she said she 'didn't like that I mentioned it...' it certainly makes sense.

That is the type of game I am NOT good at... trying to figure out the subtleties of PRAISE??? While I understand what you are saying, I have no intrinsic understanding about why someone would 'feel like they should have been doing it all along...' be praised for the change which they understand they themselves actually wanted.... then stop because of the praise.


What do I do? I also here ICH... and maybe that is the way to focus... praise or note the event appropriately as if it had been occurring all along. Looking back, I wish I had... because it was much nicer.

I don't have much time at the moment so I have to be brief.
And I am going to attempt to say this without sounding judgemental.

Taking that event with your wife: I keep thinking that had you done something like putting your hands behind your head and saying perhaps, "Thank you, baby. If you can spare me a little time, I think I'll go wash the car. ( or whatever else was in need of being done.) Instead you seem to have a tendency to separate a particular moment in time from the larger picture and then dissect it, analyize it, trying to see how the individual pieces fit together this time which made it work.I can assure you your wife-women in general-wouldn't respond well to that. Doing this robs the moment of its mystique, and of its spontaneity. It disallowed her to reflect on the moment and draw her own conclusions. And,I think, it denied her-somnthing we all need-a sense of autonomy, independence.

Give this some thought and see if there isn't something in it worth putting away for a rainy day.

Another thought, FWIW:

Examine carefully your statements for DJs. Was your comment truly saying something good about her and about the present, or did you put in a little "jab" about past behavior, or even some "parental" type lecturing or instructing?

You say you are not good at playing "games", but what I'm talking about is actually *eliminating* the games. It isn't easy to examine ourselves, what we are saying, and all the ways we have subtle lectures just beneath the surface.

From what you write, I am getting the idea of you acting as her parent, wanting to instruct her, even if you want to do it in a loving way. I could be wrong of course, that's just the idea I'm getting from what you write.

For example, you praising her, was that to "encourage good behavior" like in a child, or was it to express respectful appreciation toward an equal?

This doesn't have to be about *her* playing games that you are too open and honest to play. It could be about games you are playing, whether you realize it or not.

I've heard the Harley's praised highly for their counseling. Do you think you could benefit from talking with them?

I sense this is fairly accurate.

It could be just my reaction but reading his posts gives me an ominous feeling of being suffocated or weighed down or like being enclosed with no way out. It's just a heavy, uncomfortable feeling.

ICH: As in, you get the feeling of him being suffocated, or the W?

I could see it going either way. What he describes is miserable - but we are just getting one side of the story. I just think it is sad that two human beings feel they must treat each other so badly.

And as bad as he describes his wife being, I can see that there, but for the grace of God and help with depression and learning better communication tools, go I. It makes me sad to see the potential badness... but maybe it offers him hope, that it is possible to get better.

I was sharing how I was feeling but at the same time I thought she must feel something similar to what I felt just reading the posts.

I would be among the first to rejoice to hear those two have broken through the barriers keeping them from enjoying the marriage as it is intended to be enjoyed.
That she made the overture as his wife, to me, is a glimmer of hope. But I think he needs to see her from a different perspective; as a unique human being with all the complexities each of us brings to a marriage. We vow to take this other person for better or worse and this other person does the same.

Yes, miserable, is a good word for the atmosphere I sense exists there.

I don't think it's hopeless. But he needs to focus more on himself fulfilling his pledge to love his wife and put her first ,sacrificially, without looking to be fulfilled by her. I feel this is going to have to be done to lift the weight off the present state of things.

From things he has said elsewhere, I believe he has a rather lofty opinion of himself, which, if kept in healthy perspective, need not become a stumbling block. But if his attitude toward his wife is even slightly one of condescendence (displaying a patronizingly superior attitude) then his self estimation is distorted and in need of a makeover. This may be where the work toward restoration should begin.

These are good points, ICH.

I thought I heard some condescending statements too. I agree with what you say about focussing more on what he needs to do.

A thought on the occasion of his praising her...

Her response to his praise may have been to see it as his setting the bar at a height where, if she cleared it each time, she would have his approval. It disallows the likelihood of future substandard performance. It also forecasts the almost certainty of another harangue about her not meeting HIS needs like she did on a previous occasion. This, along with Jayne's suggestion, could be at the root of why it backfired.

It was once suggested to me before I said something to another person I should imagine it being said to me and then give some thought as to how I might react to it. One thing this definitely does is prevent me from saying something in haste which may do harm rather than good. And it isn't always what you say but how you say it and when that makes the difference.

Once when I read one of Tired's posts , I pictured him as a guy continually pushing on a door which was clearly marked , PULL , above the handle and wondering why it didn't open. Not sure what it means but could be that he is seeking advice but preferring to keep doing what he's been doing despite it's not getting the desired results. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.

The difference between now... and my first marriage, is that BECAUSE of my first marriage, I see that it is OK to have desires and needs and that it is actually within reason, to believe they should be met to at least some degree. During my first marriage, I looked out for everyone and everything other than myself. I would never have contemplated divorce... and was completely shocked when it happened. I had my head down, working, trying, thinking. I was giving everything to everyone without any significant regard for myself. That is how I was raised... that is how my whole family has always been, I was the first person ever in my family (extended) to divorce. It was not an option, and you just dealt with the fact that you weren't going to get anything in return.

With the divorce and in essence, finding this website and Harley's books, I learned that it is OK to be a hard worker, caring, and relatively selfless... but still have desires and needs. Before, I would have just ignored my feelings and desires. Upon my divorce, I learned that I have some rights to my needs being met by the appropriate people in my life. It is OK NOT to go all over town, looking for a book, because it was forgotten at school. It is OK to NOT be able to get home for dinner sometimes because you simply can't finish work in time. It is OK to want to be overtly loved, and shown it. It is OK to want to be sexually fulfilled, and that the only person who CAN AND SHOULD be doint that is my wife. It is OK to desire companionship and a little one-on-one time. It is OK to want to go out to dinner with just your wife. IT IS OK TO HOPE, DESIRE, AND NEED YOUR WIFE TO SHOW YOU THAT SHE CARES ENOUGH ABOUT YOU TO ATTEMPT TO MEET YOUR NEEDS OF HER OWN VOLITION !!!!! I don't mind being the aggressor, instigator, planner, etc most of the time. But as I believe all of you would understand... it means so much MORE to be surprised... it means so much MORE to know that you were on her mind ENOUGH with ENOUGH love involved, for her to put effort into INSTIGATING, PLANNING, LOVING you enough, to do it on her own sometimes.

Ladies... would you rather get flowers out of the blue for no reason or get them after you hinted that you haven't had any for a while? Men... would you rather walk in the door, find your kids at a sitters, and your wife putting on a silkey red dress telling you that you have dinner reservations in 30 minutes and dessert on the way home in the car? Or for you to go to dinner after you asked you made the plans yourself?

It DOES mean something... IT DOES mean something to me and my heart to know and feel that I matter. My children get up from wherever they are in the house and give me a hug EVERY NIGHT when I walk through the door. They are 14, 10, 8, and 5... Why do they do it? Because I MATTER to them. I don't ask them to do it, I don't yell 'Hey... I am home" with an expectant tone in my voice. They RACE to be the first to get to me... my youngest daughter will wait by the door sometimes, just so she can be first. There is no greater affirmation to my existence, than for them to stop doing whatever they are doing as kids... even if friends are over, and take 1 minute of their time and show that they are glad to see me.

THAT sensation is what I desire from my wife. That's it... During my first marriage, I would have ignored that need and soldiered on. However, I truly believe that I deserve to have those needs willfully, and happily met. Just as I WANT to understand and meet her needs. I want nothing more than to have her fill out the EN worksheet so I can have some clue, about what I can do better. I don't want to just meet her needs... I want to EXCEED her desires. I want to make her feel so good... that she wants to do the same for me. YES... I would like to have that feeling... that she loves me so much, that there is NOTHING she wouldn't happily do for me. Because truthfully, that IS how I feel about her.

I feel like I am running a race with leg-irons on my ankles. I can move, but not freely, because I just can't get going. I just need to understand. What is driving my posting, is that I have finally concluded that I can't make her either tell me what she needs... nor explain what I need any further. At that juncture, I don't want to continue as I did in my first marriage. I don't want to just put my head down, and go through life.

If she would read a Harley book... that would be great. If she would see a counselor... that would be great. If she would put the time into getting us a Marriage weekend course... that would be great. But otherwise, I am at a loss. I have tried to do all these things with her utter refusal. I don't see even "niceness" being a factor any longer, because our issues are not addressed with niceties. Her frustrations, whatever they may be will NOT be addressed, because I don't know WHAT THEY ARE. My frustrations, desire, and needs will not be addressed... because she has some sort of block to fulfilling them. I do know she understands what I need. She has told me she understands. That is what hurts... she is making the active choice, to disregard them.

I have pushed, pulled, kicked, shouldered, and dynamited that door... yea... it won't open.

"Ladies... would you rather get flowers out of the blue for no reason or get them after you hinted that you haven't had any for a while? Men... would you rather walk in the door, find your kids at a sitters, and your wife putting on a silkey red dress telling you that you have dinner reservations in 30 minutes and dessert on the way home in the car? Or for you to go to dinner after you asked you made the plans yourself?"

INT2, you're wounding yourself with this perspective. Telling both of you constantly that what she does just isn't good enough. I understand how you feel that way. I would love to get flowers and things without me or the kids hinting at it first. But you know what, I have to talk to my H, and ask him if he would be enthusiastic about it. It doesn't make it less special. It makes it more special, because it doesn't come naturally to him, yet he chooses to do it, anyway.

I am frustrated that I don't know how to say this to you. If you said something specific, your wife would do that, because she loves you. But what you're looking for, she's going to keep failing at. When someone says, "Finally!" it's totally demoralizing. Because I know the idea that I reinforced through my trying so hard to do good is that, "It isn't good enough, it'll never be good enough."

have you done the ENQ and LBQ? That will help you get specific, and realize where you are already blessed.

That isn't it Ears... I hear what you are saying. The old "If you don't know I am not going to tell you." type of scenario. I do tell her. I have spoken with her so many times, I just don't try any longer. I, as much as anyone, understand about needing reminded. And that needing to remind me doesn't mean that I love less. My laSt post got a little far afield from my true reason for posting here. It is not I want things without asking for them. It is to Just ENGAGE OUR MARRIAGE WITH HER OWN INPUT.

It is that when I speak with her, she acknowledges my points, and then appears to disregard them. For instance, about babysitters, she has said that she wanted to get a babysitter for the girls so we could go out. She also said she wanted to interview them. She did nothing more. I looked and looked and found a few potential candidates. I did the initial emailing and contact, did all the leg work, emailed my wife with the information... Nothing...

I reminded her several times, to no avail. I gave up trying to get a babysitter. When I specifically brought the point up, she said, "Yea... I just didn't like you very much at that time, so I didn't really feel like getting a babysitter to go out with you." Now mind you, this was over the course of a couple MONTHS not just a day or two being upset.

Don't know what to do with that remark. Nothing hidden in that statement. Nothing to discuss, work on, fix. Just a simple, "Nope... not gonna happen because I didn't like you." and that is where it was left. Couldn't get more information... couldn't get more discussion... No engagement. Just that statement.

During the entire time I was looking and interviewing babysitters, I had been telling her what I was doing. During the entire time I kept reminding her, she knew what I meant. But... HER motives were clear to her. She didn't like me at that time (for reasons which to this day have never surfaced) and she was not going to do anything 'for me'.

THIS is why I feel that she understands and chooses not to do anything. This... and a couple other occurrances in which I absolutely KNOW she understood what I was trying to do, and she did not allow it/engage in it/do it along with me. She will simply have her own reasons for sabotage/ignoring of the situation without letting me know why, what, how...

That is the feeling I get about our entire marriage. THAT is the reason that I gave her some specific parameters which I needed met to maintain our marriage. Because I feel that she is just going along with her own agenda, underneath a quasi-marriage fascade. I gave something specific and directly related to maintaining and improving our marriage. If she decides to acknowledge them, then I will continue. If she does not, then all I see regardless of a smiling face and apparent agreement, is a situation, similar to the babysitters.

She gave lip service to my attempts at getting a babysitter, but had absolutely NO INTENTION of getting one, to her own admission. I feel that it is the same with our marriage. She gives Lip Service to the fact that we are married, even with the current superficial hugs and kisses, on the eve of divorce... but I see no visible intention of actually doing something to maintain and improve our marriage. I believe this because this is the same action I have seen before.

While I do see what you are saying, and maybe, I got a bit far afield with my last post. My basic structure and posting is about the fact that I can't get my wife to engage in our marriage. Without something different than just hugs for a week, I won't continue the marriage. Today is 3 weeks since I spoke with her about what I needed in order to continue. To this day, I see nothing concerning those requests. And yea... they are requests... it is like 'Talk with me... engage with me... or I am done.'

INT2, thanks for clarifying. I encourage you to read Mr. Alias's thread, Growing Weary of the Dance, there are some similarities, and I think the advice there would be very relevant to you.

For all concerned, being done sounds like the best decision to make. She is probably hesitant to make the move in that direction because of the unknowns pertaining to her and her daughters. She has physical security by postponing the finality. You are beating a dead horse it seems to me. I can't imagine a relationship of any kind being enjoyable when one of the participants has to issue ultimatums. If your existance with this woman is as oppressive as your posts have become to me, close the book. Set her free and let her be. You can't force someone to love you.

And I can't for the life of me see what you hope to receive from others here. Someone offers a suggestion and you spend ten paragraphs saying you hear what is being said, challlenge it, and then go on to say what you think the problem is.Yet, you don't know what the problem is; you only see the symptoms of the problem. Meanwhile, both you and she are spending life at a standstill. And you have repeatedly said she is unwilling to even attempt telling you what she might think the problem is.

And just maybe you keep hanging on because you don't relish the idea of being rejected. Nobody does. But it happens and we cry, we feel the weight of the world pressing upon us and move into the next day the best we can.

If what your have said, ad nauseum, is accurate, I would say this woman would rather be elsewhere. Let it go.

Pack up your boys and your toys and move out and move ahead.
Your posts have become a funeral dirge sans the music.

You know ICH... You really should take out your frustration and anger within your life in another location. I have read almost nothing but negative remarks from you on most posts.. be it this or other threads. Sure, every once in a while, you can be helpful, but all in all, I see nothing but anger, despair, and discouragement within your own life. You project that sadness on others at almost every opportunity under the guise of 'telling it like it is', and yet, it is nothing more than unuseful and truthfully, unasked for tripe from a man who is hurting too much to post his own story.

I think you live your pain vicariously through anyone willing to post on these boards. You strike out at whomever you feel is weak, whining, or weary in an backhanded way in the form of edgy suggestions about the problem. You are the snob, in that by reading a post with normal 5th grade grammar, you choose to put down that post in a round about way by stating the poster is using "King's English".... it is simple grammar, and perfect by no means, get over it and if it bothers you to the point that you feel either the need to point out its usage or intimidated by it, you have alot of answers concerning your own situation laid out for you. When someone disagrees with you, you are quick to find another, once again, Guise-laiden explanation as to the reason they are posting. And yet... I don't hear anything about you directly. Maybe I missed your story post. Maybe it is short and too the point. Maybe it is eloquent and full of inspirational thinking such that you found the answer to the question while re-reading your own words.

It is NOT just the posts related to me which has spurred this statement. Others have brought up your replies as inappropriate on other threads as well. If you do not choose to read the words, find them distasteful, lackluster, or long winded... don't click on the damn post. But your input has broached decorum and you've simply become a forum bully.

Thank you for replying so directly. Evidently, that last shot was close to the ten ring. Unfortunately, though you use many words, your accuracy leaves much to be desired.

Speaking of intimidation. I believe it is you who are feeling intimidated.

And your final sentence: I believe you intended to say I "breached" decorum.

You have also aided my understanding as to why your wife chooses not to talk with you as often as you'd like. I'm sure your replies to her are as verbose as was yours to me.
Tends to swamp the mind. Wherever you can, use smaller and fewer words.

Finally, I am not a bully. I hate bullies. But since you brought it up, do you suppose your wife might view you as a bully when you speak to her. I mean, doesn't an ultimatum imply an 'or else'?

Anyway, as you said to me; If you don't like what I write, "don't click on the damn post."

Thanks for your time.

I'm sorry, and I usually don't get personal on forums, but I have to agree with INT on this. And I say so out of concern for you, ICH. You seem so very angry and cynical, in nearly every single post, that I ache to find a way to let you see some goodness in things. I believe that every person on earth, unless he/she is mentally unstable, is good and wants good - just to be loved and to love. I feel that you are not expecting this any more, and I wish I could find a way to give you hope.

If you were a H posting here about your current W, we would be telling you to stop the LBs and DJs. Because that is the sense from reading your advice. I know, I'm no one to talk, I'm pretty blunt myself. But I wonder sometimes if you really feel the way you talk. If so, you seem terribly angry and hurt, and I hope that you can find a way/place to get to the root of it and be able to let it go. Namaste.

My sense is your concern is genuine. So, thank you for that.

ICH: I invited you to post on a thread of your own, because I hear a lot of hurt and anger coming from you. The invitation still stands.

(This is me trying to say this in a positive way. But I also think you are seeing INT's sitch through the filter of what's happened to you - like any of us do. I'd love to listen to what your concerns are, but I'd rather not TJ INT's thread.)

INT: I think what you are describing is a withdrawn W. Do you think that's accurate?

Have you filled out the LBQ? If she won't do one, you can fill one out the way you think she would.

And you asked if ladies would rather receive flowers spontaneously, or after asking for them... ooooh I can identify with that! I've probably said something like that numerous times: "If I have to ask for it, it loses it's meaning! I want you to *want* to do something nice, more than I want the nice something."

And of course I now realize (as you probably do too) that I can't *make* H *want* to do anything. Even more... H is often clueless, poor guy! Can you believe he can't read my mind???

When I'm doing well and we are doing well, I can H&O tell him what would make me feel good - for that moment but also for future reference also.

He has learned that comforting words (to me) have more meaning if they are accompanied by a hug, for example.

So I'd prefer he read my mind. Unfortunately, he tries to show me love *his* way. But he's willing to learn, a lot of the time.

Can you use any of that? I know you said that was more of a tangent than what you originally came here for but I thought I'd give you my answer to that question.

Is your W still acting nicer to you lately? Do you think there are ways that she's trying, in her own way?

How are the LBs coming?

Hurt and anger. I have had my share of both. I can understand your saying this is reflected in my posts; more in some than others. But I am dismayed that it is all you saw in them. Then it is possible due to the essence of this forum that is what most people look for.

For the record, after ig and tired replied exclusively to my last post, I wasn't going to respond any further in any way to his situation. I own that my last post concerning his circustances was sharp and probing. I make no apology for it. And wouldn't change anything about it. If you would carefully read my first responses to him, I expressed sensitivity to the pain he must be feeling. But as I read
more of his entries, I began to see things a little differently. You mention seeing things through 'filters'. I would suppose that's another way of saying we see what we see though 'experiences' we have had. I would think that's true to one degree or another. I won't belabor this, but my final post to him is the result of how saw him in his posts, and in his responses to those of others. And I don't criticise how you see him but I don't think it would do any harm if you were to read the posts again.

And his last post to me addressed nothing of what I had said or suggested. It's aim was entirely to discredit me and everything he thought I had said. Anyhow, I am no longer interested in what he has to say. I'm already tired of his diatribes and I haven't known him any where near 18 months. I don't see him making any significant changes in himself. He'll continue doing things as usual and come here sniveling that she isn't responding and want you to wipe his nose once again. My eldest son is his age and they are worlds apart. He is a nurse anesthetist and doing very well both professionally and personally. And I am very proud of him. And all my children.

As for me: I have had two failed marriages.There will never be a third marriage. I have 7 children; 6 from the first marriage. All of the 6 are married-successfully thus far -thank the Lord- and they have provided that I have 14 grandchildren. I am by no means blameless for the dissolution of my first marriage and the second marriage had the seeds of disaster in it from the beginning. Both were 16 years in length. (One of the reasons there will not be a third? -I am running out of time) My father said many times: "Too soon old, Too Late Smart" I finally- truely - know what that means. Had I the time for a third, I know it would be preceded by a four year-minimum-courtship sans sexual involvement. ( Just imagine the thrill of the waiting and anticipation )

There you have the Reader's Digest Condensed version.

jayne... Thanks for your comments.

She is acting much nicer over the course of the last couple weeks. Very nice in fact. She finished her schooling, so that has taken alot of the time 'away' out of the picture. But, more than that... she has returned to be loving. Something which I remember from before we were married, but have rarely glimpsed since then. I see pieces of her, which resemble the woman I loved and asked to marry me. So, Yes... it is very nice.

Probably the biggest change I have noticed is that she has been more upbeat when things 'would have' gone bad before. Little things used to make her completely shut down immediately... there have been several things recently which she put aside and continued her interaction, involvement, and therefore, here apparent enjoyment of the rest of the day, evening, etc. It is Great to see.

I can only hope to speak with her. Because I seriously fear that should this drop off, we will be back to the same old same old.... I don't want to think this way, but I am not blind to the past. We could work through things... IF she would just talk to me about things. IF she would just help me to figure out where she sees changes to take place and IF she could engage in our marriage 'structure'. I feel like the smiles, talking, etc are great. But I fear they are more of the decorations within a house that is about to fall down. I love them.... but I really need to remodel, shore up, insulate, the house along with them.

I would really like to get her to work on some of the EN stuff with me. I would like her to discuss the LBs with me. I don't believe she WANTs them... but for some reason she just seems to have almost a phobia about discussing them. So we go through the day with no real idea about what the other is thinking concerning them.

She knows what I think about SF... I have absolutely NO IDEA what she wants in the same arena. None... Just for example.

I told someone else who was having trouble talking that the solution, IMO, IS talking. Meaning, fill up the silence in the house. Start talking about normal stuff, to grease the wheels again so that it starts feeling normal to talk again. After it starts feeling safe to talk about the day to day stuff, the 'real' stuff will start working its way in.

I saw the neatest thing at the grocery store today...
Did you hear that that old band we went to see in concert got back together? Man, they must be 50!
There was a stray dog on the corner of X and Y this morning. I felt so bad for it, but it didn't have a collar...
I heard that ABC dropped out of the Republican presidential race today. That really surprised me, I thought he'd go all the way...

Harmless stuff that has nothing to do with the two of you, but can also provide a little insight to who you are, what you believe in, etc., without getting mushy and all relationshippy. I promise you it works.

btw, I'm glad things are getting better.

I'm glad to hear things are going so well!

I' don't have time for a long post right now, but I read that you are wanting some relationship talk. Please hold off on the relationship talk right now... please! Do what cat said, lay some foundation of some just regular interactions first.

I have more thoughts but no time right now. I'll explain more about why no relationship talk later, then you can decide for yourself.

Cat/jayne... I will try. It is very difficult. Not to do, but to care to do any longer. 18 months for superficial talk trying to avoid anything substantial has been where we have lived. Probably 5 or 6 actual interactive discussions about our relationship which turned out to be very little input on her account.

She just called me, wanting me to watch the girls so she could go out with her mom. She will do everything she can to be able to have lunch with one of her brothers at least once a week. She 'said' she wanted to come to my office to have lunch with me today. Wanted to bring sushi. Asked me if I would order it. I said that would be great! Told her I would order it for her, since she was unsure exactly what to get. This morning she decides that she wanted to just wrap Christmas packages and maybe do it some other time. But then she calls for me to watch the girls so she can go out with her mother.

You see... these are the ACTIONS that I see as I 'hear' the love talk.

Yea... the last 2 hours haven't been kind to my demeanor.

Hang in there... maybe she realized after thinking about things that she had too much to do for Christmas.... maybe she's going out shopping for something for you... don't assume the worst.

I'm sorry it turned out that way, but I don't understand why you didn't say something like "But we aren't having sushi for lunch because you said you wanted to stay home. I don't understand why you're going out now." If she's going to put your events on the back burner, at least make her own her actions and put them out there on the counter in front of both of you.

I know you're treading carefully, but there is a point at which you have to say, ok, this is how much I can take, this is where I have to say I think you need to hear my feelings because you're not honoring them. And if that one comment about holding her accountable is enough to make her run...well, maybe you have to consider that she's just there because it's convenient.

I'm not trying to be mean. I just hate to see you hurting, and getting so little in return. I've seen people stay in situations they shouldn't have, just because they're too depressed to make a change, or because they're not liking themselves enough to think they deserve better.

Only you know if she really loves you, or can, but you also have to ask yourself if this is all you get, if you should accept it? I just don't see a lot of you saying 'this is what's fair' in your situation.

Cat... I have said it... over and over again. This is what causes her to shut down. I will discuss my feeling about the incongruencies in her actions. She will say something like "I just always disappoint you." and walk away.

yea... I have said it all before. People have questioned my choice about ultimatums and essentially it appears they (other posters) have felt that perhaps I have not been enthusiastic, praising, (too praising), thoughtful, generous, etc. enough. The fact is, the first year was a relatively well played Plan A. The last 6 months has been a pseudo-self preservation plan B. This is not the beginning of my attempts... it is the end.

I came here because it is difficult to see such incongruency and believe it to be the truth. I posted so much, because I hoped that someone would see something which I have not. I am thankful for the replies, be they positive, negative, or neutral. Some have allowed for introspection. Most have already been implemented, so when I have a quick reply/answer... it isn't because I don't want to try it... it is because I have tried it over and over again already.

I realize I won't understand. I realize once again after this morning and afternoon, that it is just the way it is. I have stayed strong on my plans, even though I wanted any reason to deviate from them.

Edit: You know the kicker... I am so ticked off... I don't even want to be around her. It is just more of the same, and this is my reaction. I am going to go shopping for my boys tonight. I told her I wouldn't watch the girls because I needed to get some things for my boys. (Which is the truth and my intention after she decided she wanted to wrap presents.) She sounded 'perturbed', said she would just take them with her then. That is fine. The issue is, I know that how I feel right now will lead me to avoid contact with her, and actually, I am not sure that is a bad thing any longer. Certainly, it doesn't fix any situation, except protect me to some degree. I know for an absolute FACT that she will not approach me to see why I would be avoiding her. She will just shut down as well. I just don't care any longer. My boys will be with me tomorrow and I can direct my attention to them. (They are with me halftime and I have them over Christmas.)

I have just gotten to the point where I just don't care. My hesitancy in embracing the 'love' was because of just this sort of thing. I don't even feel the need to address it with her, because it is just more of the same. She has heard my requests, and in 3-4 weeks I will approach her one last time to find her choice. Unless something changes in that time, I already know the choice.

{{{{INT}}}} I wish I could do something for you. Please know, though, that even if she is not a fit for you, for whatever reason, that from what I can see you are a very valuable addition to this earth. Nice person. Good father. Giver. Sacrificer. Someone who's making a difference in this world. All kinds of ways to say that you matter and make a difference. Enjoy your sons, and help them have a happy Christmas, you'll get more out of it if you concentrate on them.

And btw, I personally am glad that you said no. That is enforcing a boundary, a very deserved one, and she needed to suffer that consequence. And you needed to provide it. Regardless of whether she 'punishes' you by withdrawing. That is her choice to miss out on a great guy.

INT, I am so frustrated with myself that I'm not expressing myself in a way that is getting through. That is a DJ that she doesn't find you as important as your mom because she felt comfortable to talk to you when she needed to change plans, but not her mom.

You are very special to her. She's present with you for life. YOU are the one who doesn't want HER, yet you are projecting that onto her, as if it were her truth, and stabbing yourself with it.

I think that you could experience your marriage so much differently. YOU are the one building up the resentment. With one foot out the door. You are the danger to your marriage.

Understandable, but isn't that why you're here, to look at things with fresh eyes?

Whether she meets you for lunch or not determines whether you allow yourself to be happy today. I encourage you to look at KLD's thread, and see how a woman in your wife's position feels. How every misstep, even getting nervous about not having the presents wrapped, is a huge withdrawal, siphonong off deposits.

INT, I have been in a very similar situation to you. Ignoring my H's deposits. My H is an alcoholic, and I would take it as he prefered his beer over me. Prefers watching the same movie for the 100th time over spending time with me.

I found that I was the one sending myself these messages. I was neglecting my self-care. Sending myself the message that I wasn't important. What can you do for yourself today? Next time, what about going for sushi yourself? Or with a friend? Like cat said, you are special.

Ears... she didn't HAVE plans with her mom... she MADE plans with her mon after choosing not to be with me. She doesn't HAVE a set schedule with lunch with her brothers... she MAKES them almost every week.

I love you for your thought. I truly do. I am certainly the one who is a danger to our marriage. There is no doubt. I accept that responsibility because I have no wife other than a person who wears a ring I gave her.

You say I am special to her. I can tell you from experience that the only thing special about me is my earning power. And you are correct, I no longer want her, no more than I would want anyone whom I felt conned me into an action, situation, or agreement. I certainly am building up resentment. I am the one with both feet out the door.

If she were alcoholic... would you say the same thing? (PS... I wrote this before you posted the last time, but couldn't get it to go through.) If she were physically abusive... would you say the same thing? If she were a drug addict... would you say the same thing? If she were having affairs...would you say the same thing?

Where does the abuse of neglect come into play? Where does the breaking of vows by ignoring almost ALL emotional/physical needs come into play? I am not looking for a rule book, to find the loophole which will let me out scott free. Albeit this possibly sounds like that might be the case. I am just saying that I understand what you are saying.

I made a vow... I tried in every way to keep it. I could stay legally married... but is that keeping a vow? I don't really believe it is. How many times do I have to put my hand in the blender before it is OK to stop? That is how I feel. It is simple to have the self abasive process of thought. I did that during most of my first marriage, and was actually quite exceptional at my self-denial. I did not begin this marriage resentful, I developed the resentment due to our interactions... or lack there-of.

I am sure there are several differences between us ears... but I guess the one which stands out to me as my main point of anger is that I feel duped. Simply and soundly duped. I understand that there are always second thoughts about the one you marry after marriage when you see them every day. However, the person I asked to marry me, and the person who was in my marriage bed on my wedding night are not the same person. The variance is staggering in almost all aspects.

I feel that she simply held it together until she 'had me' then the true her came out.

I have no children with her. I feel immense love toward the girls however. She shows no interest in the least in the fact that my boys exist except that it is their job to do the dishes. I have NEVER developed a marriage basis... there has NEVER been a time in our marriage when we had even the semblance that we were married.

While I don't know your story exactly, and I would never minimize alcoholism, so please don't think I am. I suspect that at SOME point in your marriage... you felt married. You felt you had a partner... you developed a 'picture' of who your husband was and could be... with all the troubles and trials I am sure you have undergone, once again, I suspect that you can see that picture and at least see the person you KNEW him to be. I have no such picture. I have no such sense of marriage. I have no such feeling of back when.

Of course I am seeing things through my own filters, and it may or may not help. I'll throw it out there in case there's anything you can use.

(By the way, when I first started posting on MB, I felt like people weren't really "getting it" and until someone did, I felt I wasn't getting very useful advice. Keep posting, keep telling us more and more, and maybe someone will "get it" and have something that will help you.")

These last few posts, especially from today, boy do they remind me of another poster here, holdingontoit. In fact, I think maybe hold posted to you at the beginning of your thread.

But what I wanted to tell you earlier but didn't have time, is that in some ways I can see myself in your wife... and in some ways I can see my husband in your wife. I could be projecting, of course. But...

I've asked my H to do the questionnaires, to read the MB stuff, to "work on the relationship". He hates that stuff. Even if he agrees to do it, he doesn't ever actually get around to it. My asking him to do those things hasn't improved our M one whit. But what has helped is when I work on my side of things, the stuff I'd do if he were working on things with me... only without me trying to "fix" him. Just trying to "fix" myself.

That's why I wanted you to hold off on the relationship talk. It sounded to me like you were really wanting to force her into a deep relationship talk, and I wanted a chance to tell you: it IS possible to make the relationship better without the talking, just with the doing. For some people I think that's what it takes. I'd prefer the talking, but I'm married to someone who doesn't work that way.

A while ago someone mentioned a book about how to save a marriage without actually talking about it. Someone else (ears?) said they told their H about it, and the H loved the idea. Then that someone started describing the book to them... H said "You're missing the point! You're not supposed to talk about it!" LOL

Except for today's lunch that your W cancelled, you say she's been acting nice lately, even loving. Maybe she's trying, in her own way - just that talking about it isn't her way, maybe.

Would you be ok with trying to improve things between you two, if she doesn't want to *talk* about it much but is willing to try to *act* in better ways?

That doesn't mean you can't practice H&O, letting her know how you feel, telling her your boundaries. It just means not sitting down and having big "relationship talks."

Any "discussions" I have with H about MB stuff, is more like drive-by comments. Would you want to try something like that, cutting way back on the pressure to really sit and talk, and just have some enjoyable times together for awhile?

You all know...

It is funny... I am a wreck inside... I feel like have dynamite exploding in me several times a day, mixing up whatever is inside at any given moment.

I love her. I am frustrated by my perception of her actions. I understand that I don't know anything about what she desires, which as her husband saddens me greatly. Have I not been listening? Perhaps... although I have actively been trying to listen. I understand that my feelings are based MOST upon what I envisioned versus reality. The age old adage of life. I recognize and truly believe she wants to be married to me. I want to believe that there is a cause, occurrance, etc. which prevents her from feeling comfortable just letting go.

I want to just grab her, look into her eyes, and tell her I will never let her go, that she is safe, that I am strong and will always be here. I am a rock of a man in reality, but my heart is as fragile as the thinest crystal.

I fear that I will never again have that sense of Love. I fear that I will never again be surprised. I fear that I will never again feel important (to my wife). I fear that I will never feel sexually fulfilled. I fear that I will never be able to be safely open and honest. I fear that I will never have a confidant to relay my inner fears. I fear that I will never be able to utilize my immense ability to love. I fear that I will never have the impetus to continue to try to surprise. I fear that I will never have the feeling that my love needs me, desires me, yearns for me sexually. I fear that I will never have a friend which I can tell absolustely everything, and still get a hug at the end, no matter what is said. I fear that I will have no backing, no defender, no champion to MY cause should I be attacked. I fear I will grow old, disheartened, and even more resentful because what I desire most... seems so easially given.

I fear that if I continue without these things from my wife, they might be offered by someone else, and I will not be able to resist. This is so ABSOLUTELY NOT who I am... I would believe I would never stray. I had the opportunity countless times in my first marriage and it never crossed my mind. (Even once having a nurse in her underwear in my call room at the hospital when I walked in through the door.)

I just feel worried similar to what was foretold in the Bible... paraphrasing... "Don't put your spouse in the position to stray by ignoring him."

I don't care per se, specifically about talking about our relationship. I believe in the actions. It has just been that the actions have not been there, and despite my being H&O, my concerns and desires have seemed to be either disregarded or gone unheard. My stress upon discussion has been that if I KNOW that something has been heard, I can then understand whether or not the apparent disregard is intentional or merely uninformed. ie... I am not into "if you don't know, then I am not going to tell you" kind of stuff. But I am definitely the type of person who both needs and to some degree expects that directed conversation be heeded. When I say "I feel upset and unloved when we don't make love." and the reply is something analagous to completely ignoring me... that has an effect on me. The discussion was heard... I know that... the action was to make a choice to disregard and ignore almost with reactionary verve to the extreme where if the issue was that I felt we should make love more often, the reaction is to not do it at all.

Also, continuing with the sex theme, since truthfully, it overshadows the heart of everything at the moment. Agreeing with my statement... "would like more" or "would like you to take some initiative" or even to the point of stating and agreement 'you use the book 52 nights... one week and I will the next' then just never bringing it up and never doing it... THOSE are the things which I see and truly can not justify in any reasonable way. Every wife/husband understands that by agreeing to marry, that they 'forsake all others' and in so doing take on the responsibility of 'fulfilling those responsibilities' to the other person. I don't believe for a moment she didn't understand that nor agree to it. She simply chooses to not do it. The actions are the problem.

To make extreme effort to ensure she goes to lunch with her brothers each week. To make the effort to plan on ME watching the girls so SHE can go out with her MOTHER, all the while essentially ignoring any similar effort into doing the same with me... THAT is the action which occurs. You wouldn't HEAR her say that was the case. But just take a week, and see how often I come across her radar screen as something important... I would venture that it is a rare blip indeed.

INT2, I understand, that you came into this with differnt expectations than I had a reason to. I did have similar expectations, just no grounds for them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Because we were unknowingly big into LBs when we were dating, too.

Anyhow, back to your situation. You share your H&O, she doesn't respond. Your H&O is for your benefit just as much as hers.

This is what I clarified about my boundaries here at MB from sharing my H&O. My opinion matters. I matter. I will not be silenced. Any relationship I am in does have room for my H&O. My spouse's reaction to my H&O is theirs to own. My marriage can survive my spouse's reaction (anger, indiffernce, etc.) It cannot withstand the resentment I build when I choose not to share my H&O.

So, what do you say when she doesn't respond? What about, "I hear you choosing not to respond. I want you to know that I am ready to listen without judgment when you are ready to respond."

What response do you want? Have you tried a thoughtful request, being very specific what response you want?

In an effort to give you a different view on your sich, I would like to give you what may be (but not necessarily) what another person (perhaps your wife) might be thinking:

To me this presents a communication problem. To me, you (and possibly your W) are communicating in a way that does not show an open mind and/or respect for different viewpoints (the reflection of "agree to disagree"). And I definitely get the feeling that you haven't tried that "Policy of Joint Agreement" enough to be smoothing out the nuances of negotiation. Why? B/c (and this is assumption and thereby has the potential to be completely inaccurate) you are committing one of a variety of "conversation enders" when you talk to your W. You might be using an angry tone; you might be using a nice tone but saying accusatory things; you might be (and by your actions here I feel strongly you do) assuming what she is thinking (as in "you(W) don't care..."); you might be making demands (instead of thoughtful requests - which allows the other person, penalty free, to decline); you might be lecturing/educating your W ("you(W) should really read these books" means in marital speak "You don't have a clue, and you won't listen to me, so read these books so you can have a third party save me from your ignorance"); etc. What your W is doing, is enforcing a boundary: you have said something that was hurtful to me, I'm going to shut down/leave the room until I(W) feel better. Just speculation on my part.


I'm sure you did as great Plan A as possible. However, it might have been a better one with some guidance. I'm just noticing some behaviors from you that, to me, are indicating areas that might have been counterproductive during your Plan A. I don't get commission, but I do endorse the Harley's in situations like yours. If it is financially feasible, I strongly urge you to tell them what you've told us and work from there. Use the next 3 weeks. Make a few appointments. If it works, great. If not, you can pat yourself on the back for lessons learned and use your newfound Harley given knowledge going forward in your current and future relationships.

Plan B isn't structured for psuedo attempts. It is to preserve YOUR feelings of love for your W by reducing your exposure to hurtful behavior, and to withdraw YOUR support for your spouse as long as they are acting inappropriately. Your feelings, you say, have diminished and it appears you are still paying the mortgage for the house your W lives in. Neither of which are compelling enough for your W to change. This is, IMHO, a key point: you must change in order to initiate change in your M.

You might never understand your W. Inuitive knowledge about a spouse will never replace frequent honest and open communication. I definitely agree that it wasn't appropriate for her to cancel lunch, but I don't understand why you are choosing to dwell on it? May I ask, when did you do something for yourself, to make YOU happy, last? B/c you just sound sad and neglected. And the best person to cater to you would be you, so why not treat yourself. Go get yourself some sushi, and tell your W when you see her how great it was and you saw a posse of Santas drive by on miniature motorcycles (or whatever) and that she missed a good time. THAT is my Plan A response to that particular issue. No guilting. No sulking. Just be that happy person you WANT to be, and suddenly, you might be that happy person she WANTS to be around.

OK, this is your boundary. Sounds fine to me, except that element of punishment that I can't put my finger on...

And she shouldn't. If you don't have the honesty to tell her up front that you were disappointed that you and she did not have lunch, you are being passive aggressive, and controlling.

Ok, not a healthy response by her either. Doesn't this tell you she is hurting too? This nearly shouts to me that she cares... That she hurts when you withdraw. That her trust is broken and she feels the need to protect herself too

Your decision, which I support. But she has worked on changes. This won't happen overnight. She's disappointed you enough that YOUR trust will not be re-established for months if not longer. Essentially, you are telling yourself to 'get over it' in three weeks. While only you can decide how much you can take, I'm not sure you are seeing, without bias, her efforts. If you can't be more lenient with yourself, I'm not sure how you can expect to be loving towards your W. And except for a very frustrated woman, no W is going to want SF with a unhappy H. Irritable simply isn't attractive.

My heart just breaks for you both. You both care but just have trouble using the tools to get to a healthy relationship. What do you think would happen if tonight, you didn't do anything with or for your W without enthusiasm? (W: H, could you make dinner? H: Sure honey, I'll cook dinner, but I need some motivation from you. I would like a big smooch. W: ? H" No smooch? Ok, but a neck massage would get me in chef mode. W: ?? H: No neck massage? How about I get the TV remote tonight? W: ?! H: No? Well honey, I'm not enthusiastic about slaving over that hot stove when I'd rather be watching the news. I've been trying to reduce the resentment poisoning our M by being enthusiastic about what we do for each other. But seeing as it is important to you, I really want to find a way to make it a win/win situation. Could you help me think of something you'd be willing to negotiate for dinner?) Be playful or even silly about it ("if you make a funny face for me I'll throw in cleaning up afterwards..."). And then you try 100 different ways to get her enthusiastic about having lunch with you another day... (no relationship talk, new shoes, you'll wash her car, you'll "wash her car", she picks the restaurant, etc). What would happen if YOU put the fun back into this relationship (and yourself), one day at a time?

What I don't hear, is a statement of boundaries or consequences. The H&O about your feelings/needs is great, but it's just the first step. You also need to say something like "and if I don't get this need met, I am afraid it will damage the love I feel for you..."

You also need to acknowledge her right to have different feelings/perceptions/needs/desires. "I understand that you may feel distant... or that this isn't as important to you... but I am having a hard time dealing with this unmet need."

And then, maybe if x doesn't happen, you will do y. This part I'm less sure of... not to be construed as a threat. It should be simply a statement of facts. Easy to do in the case of an LB: "If you continue to yell at me, I will go to a different room." More difficult, I think, in the case of an unmet EN: "If you don't give me SF x number of times / week, I will..." ??? Doesn't quite work. Probably someone else could come up with a good boundary statement for this case.

Best case scenario, this would be followed by negotiating a POJA.

Right now, in your sitch, I'm inclined toward some drive-by H&O statements, interspersed with some good times and good statements - at a 5-to-1 ratio? That's 5 fun or good things to every non-good one. And right now your W may see any request on your part (which you have a right to make!) to be a negative, so I strongly think you should have some good things interspersed.

ETA: yes, thoughtful requests, that's what I was trying to describe! Have you said your requests in the form of Thoughtful Requests, acknowledging her right to say no, but being completely H&O about what the possible consequences are?

Thanks for the reply...

I absolutely agree that our biggest difficulty is in communication. At least at this point it is communication, because we can't communicate about our relationship in any way. We can talk about everything else under the sun. But if something about us is brought up, she just won't talk at all. If anything is said, it is generally me saying "I feel X..." and waiting for her to speak. She rarely speaks about us. I believe she might be afraid. I believe she has never needed to talk about issues, because her family just seemed to ignore trouble for a couple days, then pretend like it never happened. Then I show up, and all of the sudden, there is no 'just ignore'... this guy wants to talk about and work on issues.

She doesn't seem to know what to do. We went to a MC for a while together and separate, but when I spoke about things, she felt 'ganged up' on... saying she felt like all I did was 'YELL' at her during the sessions, and why should she want to do that? I never yelled at her nor anything of the sort. The counselor said I was VERY appropriate in my statements and attempts to engage her, however, she just doesn't have the skills, it seems, to be able to hear it without everything being an attack.

Often, she will begin to say something... and it might be just the tiniest bit controversial between us, but nothing really significant, she will begin saying it like 'I think..." and stop then say "Nope.. never mind... not my place." Now... you would think this is just saving herself from a fight, or derision or other things coming back from me, however, that is not the case in reality. It is what SHE thinks, and I accept that, but the issue is that she has an entire conversation in her head in those 2 seconds (it appears to me) in which I have ignored her or told her 'that is stupid' or something which she believes was a bad outcome of her thought. And she just won't say it. But then... and here is the kicker, she acts like I said all those bad things anyway. She will become dismissive, aloof, and condescending like "Not my problem then..." sort of thing.

My part will have been 2 seconds of listening to her begin a sentence with NO outward anything. I don't scowl, raise an eyebrow, turn away, turn towards, etc. It can be that I am simply putting on my coat. But somehow, she appears to believe that I shot down her thought in an abrasive manner out of hand. I don't do that... I have NEVER done that... if I disagree with her, I will explain... if I hesitate, even thinking about what she has said, again... she acts as though I have just blasted her thought in the most dismissive way. When I DO get the chance to say something back and if it IS something other than what she had just said, then I am openly castigated via condescending remarks to all around. I don't have the option to disagree or to an opinion in my home. If I have either, I am viewed as LORD OF THE HOUSE, trapsing around in my scarlet robe and crown passing judgement and laws out on a whim. At least that is how I take her reactions.

She moved in with me when we married. So I understand she doesn't feel equal in the house. I have tried to reassure her that it is OUR house, but she uses it against me all the time, in a passive aggressive and derisive manner. " I don't care... it isn't MY house.""You do what you want... its YOUR house." She is constantly putting down the house because we have need for another room.

We have 6 of us with only 4 bedrooms and this is a great house. My boys age 14 and 10 each have a room, they had them before she moved in. The girls 8 and 5 share a room. My oldest boy HAD the biggest room before they moved in. They moved in, needed more space since there were two of them, and he traded rooms with them. She is still upset because they have to share a room, constant backhand remarks about the fact. Well... the house is a great house in a great neighborhood, with the best schools in the state, with great friends all around. I don't have the cash to just move, and it would mean some significant changes in everyone involved anyway. But that is not the issue... we don't have a real option at the moment.

She is constantly putting down the town we live in as well. And it is a reverse condescension type thing. We live in an upper class area of the "best" suburb. She came from a small town. It is reverse snobbery IMO. And it hurts, because this is a great place, and all I hear is complaints about "Lots of soccer mom traffic... or Not one of the women who enjoy running together... or too much participation in school by parents thereby limiting availability to go on school outings... etc." She complains about the very things most people look for when they choose to move to a neighborhood. It is as if she is afraid someone will find out she 'doesn't belong' so she wants to ensure she lets people know she doesn't like it anyway, before they have a chance to tell her she shouldn't be there. It is complete defense.

Our communication difficulties actually, now after having written this and thinking about it, seems to revolve around her incredible defensiveness. She appears to interpret any disagreement as an attack, no matter how small. She appears to interpret any hesitation in action or speech as disagreement thereby an attack. The counselor said she even seemed to view him as 'ganging up' on her, when she went to him alone. I can't say anything, because unless it is bouncing off the wall fun and happy, it is an attack or dissapproval. Hence, I have learned that unfortunately, it is easier to withdraw than try...

Yea... "How's that workin' for ya?"

I love her... but man... I can't talk to her.

Now.. what are the great things about my wife? Gonna try this after every post... to keep the good thoughts going as well.

She is incredibly intelligent. She has drive to continue her education with lofty goals. She is a great cook. She is incredibly funny. She loves her girls. She is truly... one of the most beautiful women I have ever known... she is EXACTLY what I want physically in a woman in EVERY aspect. She looks GREAT in cowboy boots.

Just a few... seed I guess...

I have tried no typical MB principles such as POJA or EN/LB questionaires etc. She will have nothing to do with anything concerning well... anything. She says she will read, but never picks up the books.

I try to do them unilaterally... but as you know it is difficult. I was pretty one sidedly good for quite some time during our first year of marriage. It is hard to be a newly wed, and already be trying to 'get your wife back'.

She is ambitious. I think I believe in her abilities even more than she does in herself. I try to relay that as often as I can.

I understand it is difficult practicing the MB stuff without your S participating. That's what I've been doing. And it has made a huge difference!!!

...once I started applying them CORRECTLY. Not pseudo. Not my first guess at what they are. Rather, what I learned from posting here, giving details, and hearing what people had to say.

It wasn't immediate. I'm a slow learner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Again: what made a difference in my marriage was ME applying the things I learned... NOT trying to get H to TALK about the things here.


From how you describe her FOO, she hasn't learned to deal with conflict by talking about it. That isn't what makes her comfortable.

I get that you want to deal with problems by talking about them. I get that, I really do. I'm the same way. But it doesn't work with my H and it isn't working with your W. Maybe they will learn such behavior eventually. Or maybe, this is just part of their personality. If we love them, and this is just them preferring to not talk (it isn't abusive), then shouldn't we accept their personality instead of telling them they are "wrong"?


E_O's drive-by H&O involves you stating your H&O, then walking on by... not waiting for her to speak. Don't pressure her to respond. If you want to tell her something, do so. Without expectations of a response. You already know that makes her uncomfortable.

She may be able to hear your message better if she doesn't feel an uncomfortable pressure to respond. She may feel less defensive, less attacked, if you just state your own opinion, acknowledging hers may be different, and then go on by.

The other stuff you describe, sounds to me like she is insecure. That does make it very difficult to raise issues without having your S feel attacked. There are several women here dealing with this issue with their Hs. Maybe you can get some ideas from their threads.

BTW I do see myself in some of the things you describe. Once I dated someone from a family up north with more money than mine - I also made a lot of negative comments about yankees and exclusive country clubs and stuff. I like to think I'm better now. Your W may get better too.

When she starts to say something and then stops herself... that's her FOO issues, maybe some fear and insecurity also. She has learned that the response is to stuff things inside, and pretend they don't exist. You want to promote her feeling safe enough around you to open up. That takes patience.

What is it you absolutely need to tell her right now? Could it wait until after you guys have laid down some happy holiday memories, after you have better lovebank balances? If it can't wait, would you like to come here and work out a way of saying it that would be good negotiation, or good drive-by H&O?

I like your decision to post some good qualities about her. That can potentially make a huge difference.

I'm not discrediting your take on things, by any means. I'm trying to get a more complete picture, as well as give a hypothetical insight as to what your W may be thinking. If I can give you insight, if this reaches out, you might be able to relate to her POV, maybe you can have some compassion for her and find for yourself more strength to work on the relationship.

Was she like this before you married? And it seems that often relationship talks are b/c the initiating spouse is unhappy about something... So could you give a real world example of the rest of that "I feel..." sentence? I'm wondering if you are disguising a demand under a "feeling" statement, which might explain her shutting down and refusal to engage in what she perceives as an argument...

Did you consider using a different counselor? It might be she didn't relate well to this one's methods...

Did you ever try saying," I'm getting a vibe that you are unhappy about something. I'm here if you would like to share that with me." And let it go. If she talks, she talks. And you may or may not know: don't cut her off or say anything until she is done. Then respond by repeating what she said, so you can verify you understood what she is saying: "Would it be accurate for me to say you are unhappy with having to discipline the boys when I'm here. You want me to be more proactive when parenting." And from there perhaps you could empathize with what she is saying and then ask for suggestions or offer some and ask which she would prefer... So she doesn't like the room arrangements... What does she think is equitable? What do the kids think is equitable? Would anyone object to a 3 month change with the option, if not EVERYONE is content, to revert back to before? Is there a creative way to give the girls their own private space in the same room (a divider), making living space in a basement/attic, or a special corner of the house tailered to one of the girls likes? Same with the house... It sounds like she doesn't like where you live... Would she be happier living elsewhere? Would that be a dealbreaker or would you, for the sake of your M, be willing to move? This just seems a lack of negotiating... She might feel as if she had no say in the arrangements, and that might give over to feelings of second-class citizen. If it took an argument to get a simple room change for your step-daughters to get a sufficient room, well, it might make your W reluctant to ask for any further changes in status quo. I'm actually surprised it wasn't until after moving in before the girls got (to share) the bigger room. Why aren't these arrangements being settled as a family beforehand?


And your boundary is...? That is passive aggressive on her part. You shouldn't be around her if she's going to be like that. Take the kids out. Read in your room. Go out with your friends. Do anything but allow her sulking to affect you. Don't try to engage the sulker. It isn't your job to "make" her happy.

Just to be sure, you do agree sometimes, right?

Was this the house you picked out with your first wife?

Settle this dispute. Go house shopping. Let her see for herself the disparities in the available houses and the cost, especially in today's market. Encourage this (nicely) so she can feel it was part her decision for the family to stay in this house.

What do you think?

After reading your lengthy thread, I realize that speaking in absolutes would be ignorant on my part--but based upon the information provided it appears that you are stuck in a self-perpetuating cycle.

She: Waiting for the other shoe to drop--acting in a manner that makes the outcome reasonably foreseeable--ergo predictable results. This is a reassuring pattern for her, but it is a fear-based strategy probably learned in childhood.

You: Expecting needs to be met--constantly disappointed-growing ever more resentful--questioning whether you want to remain married.

A predictable cycle.

You say that you are clueless about what her needs are. Reading here, I would venture that her needs are not so obscure. She has a need for unconditional love. Perhaps her thinking is similar to the following: When I withhold all, will he still love me--more pointedly--How could he still love me b/c I am unlovable? She desires a predictable outcome-albeit a dysfunctional one. You often write about your desire for her to surprise you, yet the challenge is can you surprise her(?), by loving (at least for the interim) unconditionally. She has no faith or trust that it is possible. Your resentment validates her premise.

What you fail to see is that she is not per se rejecting you, but has deep ingrained fear. These are reactionary instincts-- almost animalistic and sadly, I surmise are rooted in abuse.

Your hope lies in that you can control your reactions to her patterns. You can let resentment contribute to the dissolution of your marriage or you can recognize her patterns for what they are. She very well may be a diamond in the rough. I certainly can’t discern that--only you are in a position to. You do though have the opportunity to make this a great holiday season. Let go of your resentment-stop w/ the heavy conversations and expectations to have needs met. Recognize that you have a family, a wife who is faithful and while this may sound trite--count your blessings. Go easy on both of you, lighten up your environment, and find some peace.

--Brix

Thank you all for posting your thoughts. They are quite helpful in trying to understand my own thoughts as well as helps give me a bit of different thought about what she might be feeling. This is EXACTLY why I posted so much and so often. I really feel that it is a disconnect in us both which causes our issues. And sometimes the simple fact of rereading my words on an issue is extremely helpful. Add to that, your thoughts and insights concerning what she might be feeling, and I feel hope and love more and more.

I really do love her. Her goofy grin, her wild eyes. Snorting when she laughs. I really want to be married to her in a happy and mutually enjoyable way.

I realize that over the past few months with my relative withdrawl from her in an effort to protect myself, that I have been taking my marriage away from myself. I realize that I have been putting up chips everytime she doesn't meet some need of mine, but then, I also realize that looking at me recently... I probably wouldn't have either. I grounded my thinking in the factual knowledge that "I wasn't like this before... and she treated me the same. So her doing this with me like this doesn't mean I have changed... it means she is the same." I recognize that fact, and truthfully, I am ashamed. I think more of myself than to allow that to be the man in the mirror. I am better than that, and I will pass it off as temporary insanity... Just to save face.

I know that my points are valid, my pain is valid, my needs are valid, and my desires are valid. I know also, that she is a good woman and I believe wants to be a 'good wife' to me. She probably feels as though Me... being ME... that I just can't be happy with anything less than what she believes my 'perfect' wife would be like. However, it isn't perfection that I seek. It is my wife... with all her quirks and wackadoodle thoughts whom I want.

I think that has been the most difficult part of it all. The knowledge deep within myself that I HAVE what I want... if she would just be willing to give it to me. I have held resentment almost like a standard bearer dating back to our wedding night. I have in essence felt "DUE" because I have not gotten what I wanted thus far. It wasn't meant to be that way... I didn't consciously notice that pattern. But I do know that whenever I wasn't able to make love to her, it was like heaping fuel on a fire lit that night. The truth is... making love to her was like my own drug. I felt SO MUCH BETTER if we were making love somewhat often... I wanted it more... I wanted to feel close... to feel important... to feel needed.... to feel desired. When that didn't happen... not only did I NOT feel those things... but I felt the withdrawal FROM them. And that HEAPED the fuel even higher.

I came home tonight... she was just getting ready to make supper. I held her, and kissed her. I actually 'KISSED' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> her... for the first time in probably months. My daughter was running around trying to get attention... she didn't give it to her. I bumped her sexy little glasses a bit, pushing on her eye... she still kissed me. I know she was confused... I know she was holding back. But none-the-less... I planted the first seed. It was very nice. For just a few seconds... I felt important to her.

I am going full on Plan A... I am going to do everything I can to be the best man I can be. I have slid... no doubt about it, from the 'stud' she dated. Far enough, that I don't recognize whom I have become. I will push back to that man who whirled her around in the parking lot. Hopefully, she will melt again, like she did that first kiss. I will do everything I can to make it happen and hope. If I am unsuccessful in being the person she feels desire for and we are unable to meet each others needs... at least I will have gone down with my head held high and my shoulders square.

No more excuses... It isn't anyone elses fault nor responsibility to make me the man I am now, was before, or will be in the future. If my marriage doesn't make it, I will be at a minimum be better because I was here. My downfall with be hopes, desires, and the dreaded 'expectations'. So I charge you all with a very special request. I am going to try posting on here alot. I will try to be as honest and 'truthful' (my view of course) that I can be. When I seem to be questioning something because of unmet expectations... please pound on my head. My downfall with be hopes, desires, and the dreaded 'expectations'. I can guarantee I will NOT be perfect. I can guarantee I will be a bone head at times. I cannot guarantee I will be able to continue for long but I can guarantee that I am going to try before I am done...

Who knows... I would love a re-do on our honeymoon.

Dang! I think I heard trumpets.

Outstanding Soliloquy !

A definite flair for dramatic exposition.

AWESOME!!!

I know you won't be perfect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I think you just turned a corner here. Great attitude!

Keep posting and learning. Make sure you really understand the negotiating skills, and the principles of protection etc. Try to have at least 15 hours a week of enjoyable undivided attention. This is great. Great homecoming.

Someday, send us a postcard from your second honeymoon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Go back to your room now, you have bothered those people enough for one day.

And doc, don't neglect YOUR boys or they'll become the next generation to be in a forum like this whimpering about not being hugged enough.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have been reading this entire post for some time, because it sounds alot like my wife in some parts.

But Itcouldhappen. You might have some good thoughts, but you certainly don't have a clue.

First of all, when Ignored said you are a snob, you prove it by pointing out a typo.

Then you insult both his kids and him once again, because he is upset because the person who was suppose to love him, ignores him. You say he is whimpering because he isn't hugged enough. But you, at advanced age have nothing better to do than to cruise these boards, without even having a wife. You are the exact definition of a bully. You have no skin in the game, but you make others miserable, because they have something you don't, but wish you did.

It angers me to read your last few posts, because they are just thoughtless, which hurt me and probably him too, because if I write that my wife ignores me, as his does, am I whimpering too? What are these boards for if not to say that you are hurting and want to find a way out of it.

Allow me to be one more who choses to ignor you.

Um... wow.

Ok, I chose to interpret the "go back to your room now" post as being directed at me, in a good-natured humorous way, in response to my comment about wanting a postcard from INT's 2nd honeymoon. Benefit of the doubt sort of thing.

But I could be wrong. I hope I'm not, but I think I may be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

In any case,
[color:"blue"]INT, please come take your thread back![/color] I for one would like an update so I can cheer you on if it's good news, and if not, well I promise to give my feeble attempt at advice...

And if anything I posted seemed like I was laughing at YOU... well, I wasn't, and I apologize for letting that impression remain for so long.

ps - Hi DD! *wave* I don't know you but I'm not ignoring you!

And ICH, I'm still hearing such pain and bitterness from you... The offer still stands, if you want to start your own thread... Otherwise, I just don't see the reason for targeting INT.

No Jayne, it was not a reference to you.

I developed my perception of INT from his posts over time.
DD misunderstood my remark regarding his boys if he neglected them. It is NOT an insult directed at them. It is an observation of a possible future event if they aren't given the nurturing they need as they grow.

I don't care to expend the time to explain how I developed
my perception which prompted the sarcasm in several of my posts.

In any case, I don't intend to contribute any more postings in these forums.

Finally, for DD's benefit, I would like to clarify an incorrect assumption he made. He assumed that I, not having a wife, wanted to have one. I do not. Not any longer. I am sure he would agree that, having had two, I should conclude that membership in that particular institution is not something I should aspire to obtain.