I've heard the Harley's praised highly for their counseling. Do you think you could benefit from talking with them?

I sense this is fairly accurate.

It could be just my reaction but reading his posts gives me an ominous feeling of being suffocated or weighed down or like being enclosed with no way out. It's just a heavy, uncomfortable feeling.

ICH: As in, you get the feeling of him being suffocated, or the W?

I could see it going either way. What he describes is miserable - but we are just getting one side of the story. I just think it is sad that two human beings feel they must treat each other so badly.

And as bad as he describes his wife being, I can see that there, but for the grace of God and help with depression and learning better communication tools, go I. It makes me sad to see the potential badness... but maybe it offers him hope, that it is possible to get better.

I was sharing how I was feeling but at the same time I thought she must feel something similar to what I felt just reading the posts.

I would be among the first to rejoice to hear those two have broken through the barriers keeping them from enjoying the marriage as it is intended to be enjoyed.
That she made the overture as his wife, to me, is a glimmer of hope. But I think he needs to see her from a different perspective; as a unique human being with all the complexities each of us brings to a marriage. We vow to take this other person for better or worse and this other person does the same.

Yes, miserable, is a good word for the atmosphere I sense exists there.

I don't think it's hopeless. But he needs to focus more on himself fulfilling his pledge to love his wife and put her first ,sacrificially, without looking to be fulfilled by her. I feel this is going to have to be done to lift the weight off the present state of things.

From things he has said elsewhere, I believe he has a rather lofty opinion of himself, which, if kept in healthy perspective, need not become a stumbling block. But if his attitude toward his wife is even slightly one of condescendence (displaying a patronizingly superior attitude) then his self estimation is distorted and in need of a makeover. This may be where the work toward restoration should begin.

These are good points, ICH.

I thought I heard some condescending statements too. I agree with what you say about focussing more on what he needs to do.

A thought on the occasion of his praising her...

Her response to his praise may have been to see it as his setting the bar at a height where, if she cleared it each time, she would have his approval. It disallows the likelihood of future substandard performance. It also forecasts the almost certainty of another harangue about her not meeting HIS needs like she did on a previous occasion. This, along with Jayne's suggestion, could be at the root of why it backfired.

It was once suggested to me before I said something to another person I should imagine it being said to me and then give some thought as to how I might react to it. One thing this definitely does is prevent me from saying something in haste which may do harm rather than good. And it isn't always what you say but how you say it and when that makes the difference.

Once when I read one of Tired's posts , I pictured him as a guy continually pushing on a door which was clearly marked , PULL , above the handle and wondering why it didn't open. Not sure what it means but could be that he is seeking advice but preferring to keep doing what he's been doing despite it's not getting the desired results. Some just can't see the forest for the trees.

The difference between now... and my first marriage, is that BECAUSE of my first marriage, I see that it is OK to have desires and needs and that it is actually within reason, to believe they should be met to at least some degree. During my first marriage, I looked out for everyone and everything other than myself. I would never have contemplated divorce... and was completely shocked when it happened. I had my head down, working, trying, thinking. I was giving everything to everyone without any significant regard for myself. That is how I was raised... that is how my whole family has always been, I was the first person ever in my family (extended) to divorce. It was not an option, and you just dealt with the fact that you weren't going to get anything in return.

With the divorce and in essence, finding this website and Harley's books, I learned that it is OK to be a hard worker, caring, and relatively selfless... but still have desires and needs. Before, I would have just ignored my feelings and desires. Upon my divorce, I learned that I have some rights to my needs being met by the appropriate people in my life. It is OK NOT to go all over town, looking for a book, because it was forgotten at school. It is OK to NOT be able to get home for dinner sometimes because you simply can't finish work in time. It is OK to want to be overtly loved, and shown it. It is OK to want to be sexually fulfilled, and that the only person who CAN AND SHOULD be doint that is my wife. It is OK to desire companionship and a little one-on-one time. It is OK to want to go out to dinner with just your wife. IT IS OK TO HOPE, DESIRE, AND NEED YOUR WIFE TO SHOW YOU THAT SHE CARES ENOUGH ABOUT YOU TO ATTEMPT TO MEET YOUR NEEDS OF HER OWN VOLITION !!!!! I don't mind being the aggressor, instigator, planner, etc most of the time. But as I believe all of you would understand... it means so much MORE to be surprised... it means so much MORE to know that you were on her mind ENOUGH with ENOUGH love involved, for her to put effort into INSTIGATING, PLANNING, LOVING you enough, to do it on her own sometimes.

Ladies... would you rather get flowers out of the blue for no reason or get them after you hinted that you haven't had any for a while? Men... would you rather walk in the door, find your kids at a sitters, and your wife putting on a silkey red dress telling you that you have dinner reservations in 30 minutes and dessert on the way home in the car? Or for you to go to dinner after you asked you made the plans yourself?

It DOES mean something... IT DOES mean something to me and my heart to know and feel that I matter. My children get up from wherever they are in the house and give me a hug EVERY NIGHT when I walk through the door. They are 14, 10, 8, and 5... Why do they do it? Because I MATTER to them. I don't ask them to do it, I don't yell 'Hey... I am home" with an expectant tone in my voice. They RACE to be the first to get to me... my youngest daughter will wait by the door sometimes, just so she can be first. There is no greater affirmation to my existence, than for them to stop doing whatever they are doing as kids... even if friends are over, and take 1 minute of their time and show that they are glad to see me.

THAT sensation is what I desire from my wife. That's it... During my first marriage, I would have ignored that need and soldiered on. However, I truly believe that I deserve to have those needs willfully, and happily met. Just as I WANT to understand and meet her needs. I want nothing more than to have her fill out the EN worksheet so I can have some clue, about what I can do better. I don't want to just meet her needs... I want to EXCEED her desires. I want to make her feel so good... that she wants to do the same for me. YES... I would like to have that feeling... that she loves me so much, that there is NOTHING she wouldn't happily do for me. Because truthfully, that IS how I feel about her.

I feel like I am running a race with leg-irons on my ankles. I can move, but not freely, because I just can't get going. I just need to understand. What is driving my posting, is that I have finally concluded that I can't make her either tell me what she needs... nor explain what I need any further. At that juncture, I don't want to continue as I did in my first marriage. I don't want to just put my head down, and go through life.

If she would read a Harley book... that would be great. If she would see a counselor... that would be great. If she would put the time into getting us a Marriage weekend course... that would be great. But otherwise, I am at a loss. I have tried to do all these things with her utter refusal. I don't see even "niceness" being a factor any longer, because our issues are not addressed with niceties. Her frustrations, whatever they may be will NOT be addressed, because I don't know WHAT THEY ARE. My frustrations, desire, and needs will not be addressed... because she has some sort of block to fulfilling them. I do know she understands what I need. She has told me she understands. That is what hurts... she is making the active choice, to disregard them.

I have pushed, pulled, kicked, shouldered, and dynamited that door... yea... it won't open.

"Ladies... would you rather get flowers out of the blue for no reason or get them after you hinted that you haven't had any for a while? Men... would you rather walk in the door, find your kids at a sitters, and your wife putting on a silkey red dress telling you that you have dinner reservations in 30 minutes and dessert on the way home in the car? Or for you to go to dinner after you asked you made the plans yourself?"

INT2, you're wounding yourself with this perspective. Telling both of you constantly that what she does just isn't good enough. I understand how you feel that way. I would love to get flowers and things without me or the kids hinting at it first. But you know what, I have to talk to my H, and ask him if he would be enthusiastic about it. It doesn't make it less special. It makes it more special, because it doesn't come naturally to him, yet he chooses to do it, anyway.

I am frustrated that I don't know how to say this to you. If you said something specific, your wife would do that, because she loves you. But what you're looking for, she's going to keep failing at. When someone says, "Finally!" it's totally demoralizing. Because I know the idea that I reinforced through my trying so hard to do good is that, "It isn't good enough, it'll never be good enough."

have you done the ENQ and LBQ? That will help you get specific, and realize where you are already blessed.

That isn't it Ears... I hear what you are saying. The old "If you don't know I am not going to tell you." type of scenario. I do tell her. I have spoken with her so many times, I just don't try any longer. I, as much as anyone, understand about needing reminded. And that needing to remind me doesn't mean that I love less. My laSt post got a little far afield from my true reason for posting here. It is not I want things without asking for them. It is to Just ENGAGE OUR MARRIAGE WITH HER OWN INPUT.

It is that when I speak with her, she acknowledges my points, and then appears to disregard them. For instance, about babysitters, she has said that she wanted to get a babysitter for the girls so we could go out. She also said she wanted to interview them. She did nothing more. I looked and looked and found a few potential candidates. I did the initial emailing and contact, did all the leg work, emailed my wife with the information... Nothing...

I reminded her several times, to no avail. I gave up trying to get a babysitter. When I specifically brought the point up, she said, "Yea... I just didn't like you very much at that time, so I didn't really feel like getting a babysitter to go out with you." Now mind you, this was over the course of a couple MONTHS not just a day or two being upset.

Don't know what to do with that remark. Nothing hidden in that statement. Nothing to discuss, work on, fix. Just a simple, "Nope... not gonna happen because I didn't like you." and that is where it was left. Couldn't get more information... couldn't get more discussion... No engagement. Just that statement.

During the entire time I was looking and interviewing babysitters, I had been telling her what I was doing. During the entire time I kept reminding her, she knew what I meant. But... HER motives were clear to her. She didn't like me at that time (for reasons which to this day have never surfaced) and she was not going to do anything 'for me'.

THIS is why I feel that she understands and chooses not to do anything. This... and a couple other occurrances in which I absolutely KNOW she understood what I was trying to do, and she did not allow it/engage in it/do it along with me. She will simply have her own reasons for sabotage/ignoring of the situation without letting me know why, what, how...

That is the feeling I get about our entire marriage. THAT is the reason that I gave her some specific parameters which I needed met to maintain our marriage. Because I feel that she is just going along with her own agenda, underneath a quasi-marriage fascade. I gave something specific and directly related to maintaining and improving our marriage. If she decides to acknowledge them, then I will continue. If she does not, then all I see regardless of a smiling face and apparent agreement, is a situation, similar to the babysitters.

She gave lip service to my attempts at getting a babysitter, but had absolutely NO INTENTION of getting one, to her own admission. I feel that it is the same with our marriage. She gives Lip Service to the fact that we are married, even with the current superficial hugs and kisses, on the eve of divorce... but I see no visible intention of actually doing something to maintain and improve our marriage. I believe this because this is the same action I have seen before.

While I do see what you are saying, and maybe, I got a bit far afield with my last post. My basic structure and posting is about the fact that I can't get my wife to engage in our marriage. Without something different than just hugs for a week, I won't continue the marriage. Today is 3 weeks since I spoke with her about what I needed in order to continue. To this day, I see nothing concerning those requests. And yea... they are requests... it is like 'Talk with me... engage with me... or I am done.'

INT2, thanks for clarifying. I encourage you to read Mr. Alias's thread, Growing Weary of the Dance, there are some similarities, and I think the advice there would be very relevant to you.

For all concerned, being done sounds like the best decision to make. She is probably hesitant to make the move in that direction because of the unknowns pertaining to her and her daughters. She has physical security by postponing the finality. You are beating a dead horse it seems to me. I can't imagine a relationship of any kind being enjoyable when one of the participants has to issue ultimatums. If your existance with this woman is as oppressive as your posts have become to me, close the book. Set her free and let her be. You can't force someone to love you.

And I can't for the life of me see what you hope to receive from others here. Someone offers a suggestion and you spend ten paragraphs saying you hear what is being said, challlenge it, and then go on to say what you think the problem is.Yet, you don't know what the problem is; you only see the symptoms of the problem. Meanwhile, both you and she are spending life at a standstill. And you have repeatedly said she is unwilling to even attempt telling you what she might think the problem is.

And just maybe you keep hanging on because you don't relish the idea of being rejected. Nobody does. But it happens and we cry, we feel the weight of the world pressing upon us and move into the next day the best we can.

If what your have said, ad nauseum, is accurate, I would say this woman would rather be elsewhere. Let it go.

Pack up your boys and your toys and move out and move ahead.
Your posts have become a funeral dirge sans the music.

You know ICH... You really should take out your frustration and anger within your life in another location. I have read almost nothing but negative remarks from you on most posts.. be it this or other threads. Sure, every once in a while, you can be helpful, but all in all, I see nothing but anger, despair, and discouragement within your own life. You project that sadness on others at almost every opportunity under the guise of 'telling it like it is', and yet, it is nothing more than unuseful and truthfully, unasked for tripe from a man who is hurting too much to post his own story.

I think you live your pain vicariously through anyone willing to post on these boards. You strike out at whomever you feel is weak, whining, or weary in an backhanded way in the form of edgy suggestions about the problem. You are the snob, in that by reading a post with normal 5th grade grammar, you choose to put down that post in a round about way by stating the poster is using "King's English".... it is simple grammar, and perfect by no means, get over it and if it bothers you to the point that you feel either the need to point out its usage or intimidated by it, you have alot of answers concerning your own situation laid out for you. When someone disagrees with you, you are quick to find another, once again, Guise-laiden explanation as to the reason they are posting. And yet... I don't hear anything about you directly. Maybe I missed your story post. Maybe it is short and too the point. Maybe it is eloquent and full of inspirational thinking such that you found the answer to the question while re-reading your own words.

It is NOT just the posts related to me which has spurred this statement. Others have brought up your replies as inappropriate on other threads as well. If you do not choose to read the words, find them distasteful, lackluster, or long winded... don't click on the damn post. But your input has broached decorum and you've simply become a forum bully.

Thank you for replying so directly. Evidently, that last shot was close to the ten ring. Unfortunately, though you use many words, your accuracy leaves much to be desired.

Speaking of intimidation. I believe it is you who are feeling intimidated.

And your final sentence: I believe you intended to say I "breached" decorum.

You have also aided my understanding as to why your wife chooses not to talk with you as often as you'd like. I'm sure your replies to her are as verbose as was yours to me.
Tends to swamp the mind. Wherever you can, use smaller and fewer words.

Finally, I am not a bully. I hate bullies. But since you brought it up, do you suppose your wife might view you as a bully when you speak to her. I mean, doesn't an ultimatum imply an 'or else'?

Anyway, as you said to me; If you don't like what I write, "don't click on the damn post."

Thanks for your time.

I'm sorry, and I usually don't get personal on forums, but I have to agree with INT on this. And I say so out of concern for you, ICH. You seem so very angry and cynical, in nearly every single post, that I ache to find a way to let you see some goodness in things. I believe that every person on earth, unless he/she is mentally unstable, is good and wants good - just to be loved and to love. I feel that you are not expecting this any more, and I wish I could find a way to give you hope.

If you were a H posting here about your current W, we would be telling you to stop the LBs and DJs. Because that is the sense from reading your advice. I know, I'm no one to talk, I'm pretty blunt myself. But I wonder sometimes if you really feel the way you talk. If so, you seem terribly angry and hurt, and I hope that you can find a way/place to get to the root of it and be able to let it go. Namaste.

My sense is your concern is genuine. So, thank you for that.

ICH: I invited you to post on a thread of your own, because I hear a lot of hurt and anger coming from you. The invitation still stands.

(This is me trying to say this in a positive way. But I also think you are seeing INT's sitch through the filter of what's happened to you - like any of us do. I'd love to listen to what your concerns are, but I'd rather not TJ INT's thread.)

INT: I think what you are describing is a withdrawn W. Do you think that's accurate?

Have you filled out the LBQ? If she won't do one, you can fill one out the way you think she would.

And you asked if ladies would rather receive flowers spontaneously, or after asking for them... ooooh I can identify with that! I've probably said something like that numerous times: "If I have to ask for it, it loses it's meaning! I want you to *want* to do something nice, more than I want the nice something."

And of course I now realize (as you probably do too) that I can't *make* H *want* to do anything. Even more... H is often clueless, poor guy! Can you believe he can't read my mind???

When I'm doing well and we are doing well, I can H&O tell him what would make me feel good - for that moment but also for future reference also.

He has learned that comforting words (to me) have more meaning if they are accompanied by a hug, for example.

So I'd prefer he read my mind. Unfortunately, he tries to show me love *his* way. But he's willing to learn, a lot of the time.

Can you use any of that? I know you said that was more of a tangent than what you originally came here for but I thought I'd give you my answer to that question.

Is your W still acting nicer to you lately? Do you think there are ways that she's trying, in her own way?

How are the LBs coming?

Hurt and anger. I have had my share of both. I can understand your saying this is reflected in my posts; more in some than others. But I am dismayed that it is all you saw in them. Then it is possible due to the essence of this forum that is what most people look for.

For the record, after ig and tired replied exclusively to my last post, I wasn't going to respond any further in any way to his situation. I own that my last post concerning his circustances was sharp and probing. I make no apology for it. And wouldn't change anything about it. If you would carefully read my first responses to him, I expressed sensitivity to the pain he must be feeling. But as I read
more of his entries, I began to see things a little differently. You mention seeing things through 'filters'. I would suppose that's another way of saying we see what we see though 'experiences' we have had. I would think that's true to one degree or another. I won't belabor this, but my final post to him is the result of how saw him in his posts, and in his responses to those of others. And I don't criticise how you see him but I don't think it would do any harm if you were to read the posts again.

And his last post to me addressed nothing of what I had said or suggested. It's aim was entirely to discredit me and everything he thought I had said. Anyhow, I am no longer interested in what he has to say. I'm already tired of his diatribes and I haven't known him any where near 18 months. I don't see him making any significant changes in himself. He'll continue doing things as usual and come here sniveling that she isn't responding and want you to wipe his nose once again. My eldest son is his age and they are worlds apart. He is a nurse anesthetist and doing very well both professionally and personally. And I am very proud of him. And all my children.

As for me: I have had two failed marriages.There will never be a third marriage. I have 7 children; 6 from the first marriage. All of the 6 are married-successfully thus far -thank the Lord- and they have provided that I have 14 grandchildren. I am by no means blameless for the dissolution of my first marriage and the second marriage had the seeds of disaster in it from the beginning. Both were 16 years in length. (One of the reasons there will not be a third? -I am running out of time) My father said many times: "Too soon old, Too Late Smart" I finally- truely - know what that means. Had I the time for a third, I know it would be preceded by a four year-minimum-courtship sans sexual involvement. ( Just imagine the thrill of the waiting and anticipation )

There you have the Reader's Digest Condensed version.

jayne... Thanks for your comments.

She is acting much nicer over the course of the last couple weeks. Very nice in fact. She finished her schooling, so that has taken alot of the time 'away' out of the picture. But, more than that... she has returned to be loving. Something which I remember from before we were married, but have rarely glimpsed since then. I see pieces of her, which resemble the woman I loved and asked to marry me. So, Yes... it is very nice.

Probably the biggest change I have noticed is that she has been more upbeat when things 'would have' gone bad before. Little things used to make her completely shut down immediately... there have been several things recently which she put aside and continued her interaction, involvement, and therefore, here apparent enjoyment of the rest of the day, evening, etc. It is Great to see.

I can only hope to speak with her. Because I seriously fear that should this drop off, we will be back to the same old same old.... I don't want to think this way, but I am not blind to the past. We could work through things... IF she would just talk to me about things. IF she would just help me to figure out where she sees changes to take place and IF she could engage in our marriage 'structure'. I feel like the smiles, talking, etc are great. But I fear they are more of the decorations within a house that is about to fall down. I love them.... but I really need to remodel, shore up, insulate, the house along with them.

I would really like to get her to work on some of the EN stuff with me. I would like her to discuss the LBs with me. I don't believe she WANTs them... but for some reason she just seems to have almost a phobia about discussing them. So we go through the day with no real idea about what the other is thinking concerning them.

She knows what I think about SF... I have absolutely NO IDEA what she wants in the same arena. None... Just for example.