Do not take her not wanting an answer or a lengthy answer as an insult to your intelligence or store of knowledge. They seem to process information in a different manner than does a man.
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why did I find this so funny? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

If I am a 'they".....this is true. I do process information differently than "you" seem to, Ignored.
I will often make comments that come out as rhetorical questions that I am NOT asking H to solve for me....but, listen to my frustration and hopefully offer some understanding.

i get the feeling your W is as lost about you (and feels just as ignored or misunderstood) as you are about her.

nia, Appreciate your input. It is good to hear from 'they'.

laughter is the best medicine I have been told.

peace....

laughter is the best medicine I have been told.

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it helps me not take things so personally...but, i have learned that I need to be careful that my H does not think i am laughing at him......or belittling him, which of course he does when he takes things personally......So,
I guess the best medicine would be to not take things personally. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now, closer to home... I am a 'brain-doc'. And one of my BIGGEST problems is that I forget random things which occur out of the norm. Like, to pick up dry cleaning, I will constantly forget. I can remember every detail about a patient or that patient's family, but I have a very good chance to forget their name. I was top of my class, and yet, I will forget why I took off a half day of work. In essence, I live with 2 other people helping me to remember to do the things which are out of the ordinary. I live with an OUTLOOK encoded phone, in order to remember to get to a meeting or pick up the kids.------ Just like me, my wife, my assistant, Outlook, sticky-notes do for me. .-IgnoredNTired2

Perhaps you recall my positing the notion there must be something about your wife which you can compliment; which you can appreciate about her. You neglected to mention this.
Evidently, when she isn't asking you to remove your shoes before walking on the carpet or finding fault with the socks you're wearing on a shoe buying outing, she is reminding you to pick up the dry cleaning or stop for a gallon of milk before arriving home. Every little positive can't hurt to keep in mind. Consider this a reminder of one of those little positives. You're welcome.

I have spent some time thinking about everything said here on the message boards. And I have had some insights into myself at least. I recognize changes which have occurred to me over the last 18 months. I recognize I have become sullen for one. That is one thing I have never been before. It is like a wet blanket is constantly weighting down my shoulders without relief. I have tried and tried to shake that sensation over at least the last year, not exactly understanding where it was coming from. I recognized it just the other day. It comes from my interaction and feelings associated with my wife. I have no good feelings anymore concerning our relationship. I feel no base structure... no comradery... no association... no friendship... and certainly no love between us any longer. I feel strained in almost all interactions with her, and I have for a long time.

I didn't recognize the cause of this until someone above pointed out that I sound resentful. That is it completely, and I understand that that emotion and thought pattern is within myself, construed upon my marriage due to our interactions. I am resentful. As difficult as it is to admit it, I resent the immediate change in my feelings of love which I attribute to my wife since the day of our marriage.

I recognize that it is my attribution of my feelings directed at her which causes my thought processes to maintain those same feelings. I also understand that feelings are totally within oneself, and that two people viewing/experiencing the same occurrance can have two completely incongruous 'feelings' about it. That is immaterial, because my situation is that I feel bad. I feel unloved. I feel unimportant. I feel uncared for and uncared about. I feel like I come in 11th in a field of 10. I used to think that I was unheard, but now I no longer believe this to be true. I think that truthfully, her choices are simply to be/act this way concerning me.

My part has been to maintain our marriage with a hopefulness that we will be able to communicate at some point and understand each other. And in so we would meet each other's needs. That was when I thought that we merely needed to find an avenue through which to communicate. I don't believe that there is such an avenue any longer. There are too many roadblocks in her view of any of my suggestions, and she refuses to suggest anything of her own choice. While I obviously can't read her mind, I can understand her actions, at least in my estimation and how they are viewed by me. They simply are to ignore the issue completely. I can't accept that as being within my marriage. I am not the right guy to be ignored nor dismissed.

The resentment stems from the fact that this is NOT a 10-20 year relationship which was fine early on, but that has slacked off over time. It does NOT have a basis of bedrock love which was developed early in the marriage, when needs were being met and understandings and commitments were solidified. The resentment comes from the drastic change which occurred within the course of about 2 months immediately surrounding our wedding. While I recognize that everything including love trails off and must be maintained and fed carefully, I don't feel as if I ever even had the little initial elation of marriage. And there certainly has been no benefit since marriage.

It comes down to the fact and feeling that every reason why I wanted to be married in the first place has not come to fruition. I never needed someone to clean, cook, and take care of the kids. I married to enjoy life with a companion, confidant, friend, and lover. I resent the feeling that not only don't I have any of those things, I feel like I married someone who chooses not to even engage in trying to form those bonds and fulfill those desires. In essence, I feel as though I married someone who simply chooses not to care.

You know... as sheepishly as I say this, I will be open and honest. The lack of sex in my relationship has so overcrowded my feelings, that it is definitely hard to see anything else. Why do I feel unloved? No sex... Why do I feel that our honeymoon was disappointing? No sex... Why do I feel no comradery? No sex... Why do I feel ignored? Because I have tried to explain my desire for her intimately.... and still no sex. Why do I feel little friendship? Because I have tried to get babysitters to be alone sometimes to engender more of an intimate mood... no sex. Why do I feel resentful about our wedding night? ... no sex. Why do I feel almost every negative feeling I have associated with my marriage right now?... no sex. As childish as some might think it is, the simple fact that I am so sexually frustrated while living with my wife has grown to overshadow almost everything else in our relationship. It is sad, really.... because it has become such a central theme in my feelings, that I actually don't watch TV much any longer, because I get a truely sick feeling when a show might have a love scene where the woman shows that she cares about the man. ... There was even a stupid Pizza Hut commercial which showed a woman dressed in lingerie, calling her husband upstairs and him being an idiot... I realized just how frustrated and angry I had become when I became angry and upset while watching that commercial. That is just sad... and ridiculous in all actuality. But it is the truth none-the-less.

I don't know if there are other things in our marriage which would matter nerely as much, if we had that one part of our marriage working well. I really don't know. But I do know that without that part of our marriage functioning, I constantly feel inadequate and down. I feel upset, on edge, and most of all unloved. Yes... some might think it whining.... some might think it childish... but it is just the fact that I feel that I am wasted. I have so much potential to be a much better man than I am. I am ashamed that I can't muster up the guy I feel I am, because I constantly feel unloved. I want to feel like I have a purpose to do all those things of which I am capable. Atruistically, you might think I should do them regardless... and that in so doing, things would change. All I can say, is that I have tried and tried and tried to no avail. I have been taught that those actions, those gestures of love do not have the same effect on her as they would typically have in my estimation, on most women. I have been taught that me doing nice things does not equal a reciprocation of nice things in return. I have learned that openly relaying needs, desires, and hopes can actually lead to derision and a weapon to be used later, rather than information to be cultivated and grown. These things I do not understand, and choose not to accept any longer.

Ignored, you have valid reasons for feeling that way. If your W is unwilling to participate in the M, you have no M. You have a roommate. So you have to do what you have to do. If you really feel you've tried everything, and it sounds like you have, you should consider ending it. I would suggest a last-ditch effort, though, before doing that. Find an outside interest, someone who knows both of you but who won't take sides, and give them the story. Ask her to give her story. If she's unwilling, then give hers the best you can - from HER point of view. If you don't do that, it won't be fair for the helper to honestly give you an opinion. Ask that person what he/she sees, what advice he/she would give, and then honestly listen. That way, if you do walk away, you'll know you gave it your best effort, even according to someone outside the relationship.

The truly sad thing is that I believe the Marriage counselor... who has by default become my personal counselor... feels that there is little chance of success. He has seen and spoken with her several times, some with me in attendance and some without. Not for quite some time, because she refuses to go back, but enough for him to have at least a chance at understanding the situation. I feel that for several sessions, he has had little thought about success in our marriage. He has not voiced such, but you can tell the differences in the way he spoke about marriage early compared to what he says now. He is supportive, but there really is no significant thought about changes. And his assumption as is mine, is that no changes will occur without both of us engaging in the marriage. I also know that he doesn't WANT to believe that there is little hope. He has asked for her to come in several times, but when I relay that, she simply refuses out of hand. And now, we are far to 'gone' to simply be nice to each other.

It saddens me and infuriates me at the same moment. I am saddened, because I still can see so much potential. It infuriates me because I don't understand why the change? Why not just be who you are before you are married so the decision to marry or not can be made appropriately? It aggravates me beyond measure to feel like I was duped into marriage. And whether that is the case or not, I have had no evidence to the contrary which I can see. She ignores me... she ignores my children. She lavishes everything onto her girls and herself. She ensures that they are well taken care of and she is going to school to ensure that will always be the case. She won't even stop by and say goodnight to my boys, and yet she tells me I need to continually strive to develop a better relationship with the girls.

The incongruence is that she has been very nice to me for about the last week. She is kind for the most part, she has definitely been trying to stay 'up' and keep things going 'well'. There have been times recently, where I have definitely seen a 'change' in her typical way of dealing with things, and it is very nice. There were a couple of times where we would have typically withdrawn, during which she chose to stay up and involved. The problem is now mine in that I have no faith. I have no faith in the change... I have the same behaviors I have developed since marriage in that I 'felt' the beginning of my own withdrawl, whereby she 'changed that feeling' by maintaining interaction. It is a glimmer of how it should have been all along, but I have now become the problem instead of being effected by the problem. My interaction over the last week has been suspect... anticipatory... guarded. That probably best fits my feelings right now. I want to burst with joy and love... but there is no way that I can afford to do so, which just magnifies my frustration. For 18 months I have endured a short burst of 'good times' interposed with long times of negative. I have become suspect of everything good, simply because it has always been followed by bad. There is no baseline from which to work. I have no confidence in our marriage, because I don't even feel married.

You know... before I was married, I would clearly have stated that honesty would have been my primary EN. Followed by others with SF being about 4th or 5th. But, to my almost guilt and shame, I have become so frustrated at the lack of SF, that I see almost everything through 'deprived' glasses. I know that it effects how I deal with her. I ABSOLUTELY know that my marriage suffers due to ME because of this issue. I am shocked as a matter of fact, at how much effective abstinence has affected my personality and demeanor. I am certainly NOT proud of my thoughts concerning self pity. I feel ashamed that something as 'worldly' as sex or the lack thereof has set me on edge to this degree. I also recognize that it is not JUST sex... but that I feel discarded. I never recognized that I placed such an emphasis of my self worth and well being as a worthwhile partner, on my sexual intimacy and interactions. I wish it was not the case. I wish that I felt worth as a companion through another means, and that this was just a tiny aside, which was beneficial, but hardly necessary. The fact is, however, that I get very little of the other things either. I get no admiration... I get no financial satisfaction... I get no warm feelings when I see her interact with my boys... I don't see appreciation for me in the least. And therefore, when I don't see anything like those things, and there is no PERSONAL sense of worth from my wife, I end up feeling the way I do now. The funny thing is, I can get the admiration, at least in part, from my children and the people I work with. I can get the financial acknowledgement by paying the bills and ensuring my family is well taken care of and taking care of retirement. I can get the feeling that my boys are OK, by putting energy and thought into them. But I can't get anything such as a personal love feeling... I can't get intimate love... I can't get intimate (non-sexual) approval... from anyone other than my wife. THOSE ARE THE REASONS FOR WHICH I MARRIED. The things NO ONE in the world can give me other than my confidant, my friend, my lover,... my wife. I can get everything I need from somewhere else, but those are exclusively her right... but also her responsibility.

My wife is very beautiful. There is no doubt about it, and it certainly had an effect on me very early on in our dating. But that was only a very small part of what I learned to love about her. She was great on all sorts of non-personal things during our courtship, these have changed in alot of ways as well, but are of less importance to me because I can meet those needs elsewhere. But personally, she was very intimate with me... she fulfilled all sorts of desires which I didn't even know I had, but which I have since come to crave. Now, I feel very much like I have a Ferrari sitting in the garage, but I can't reach the keys. I can see it through the window, but I am not allowed to touch. Every morning it pulls itself into the driveway, and everyone can see that I have a Ferrari. But little do they know that I have no chance to drive it. I get no satisfaction from having it with me. I have all the responsibilities of ownership such as upkeep, insurance, etc. Without even a glimmer of a chance to actually utilize it in the fullest sense. People see her and say to me, 'Man you better treat her well.' and 'You are so lucky. You guys look great together.' etc. But truthfully, I would rather she be half as pretty, twice as heavy, and just love me as if I mattered and she actually had fun loving me.

I would ask...

Why did you marry? I don't mean 'because I was in love'... I mean, what were your expectations of marriage? What did you believe marriage would be like? What did you think YOUR responsibilities to your spouse would be? What did you believe your spouses responsibilities to you would be?

I don't know whether my thinking is so askew any more that I can't even think straight. I see everything through such strained eyes and heart, that I don't trust what is right in front of me any longer. This is not ME... it is what I have become.

You have no reason to be ashamed for feeling SF is so important to your marriage. It IS important, and it's very normal for you to be feeling all this.

That said, all I can think to say is that you need to make a change. What kind of change would have to be up to you. But you are getting far too depressed to keep this going. Make a change for your kids' sakes, before something worse happens.

SF is a completely legitimate EN. It is listed on this site with all the other ENs.

From the way you describe your feelings, it is obvious that SF is a way you experience being loved. This isn't some perverted desire of yours - it is an EN that is not being met. You should not feel guilty for having an EN.

There are tools described on this site for negotiating your needs, and for restoring love so you each can start meeting each others' needs. I think they are good tools to have even if the M ends up in D.

Have you eliminated all LBs?

Is there something you could be doing that would explain your W's being nicer lately?

Sex is not "worldly" when it's in a loving relationship. Sex is a gift from Heaven above. It's also the glue of a marriage.

Yes... I told her about 2 weeks ago that I needed some concrete things to happen to maintain our relationship. I explain this more in depth in the initial post. But essentially, we have had a very rough time since day one. She refused to go to counseling, read, converse, or engage in discussion anything concerning our marriage. She would listen if I spoke, but very little input. I essentially told her that if she wanted to remain married to me, that I needed her to do some things to help us. I said that I needed for her to see a counselor herself, since she won't go with me. She needed to set up an intesive weekend away from everyone to help us reconnect such as MB weekend. I had tried to do this a couple times but she refused. And that I needed for her to set up a consistent time each week that we could discuss our relationship and what we both needed.

Some have said these are ultimatums. I guess in a way they are... because I have tried everything I can think of to change our situation, and truthfully, I don't see anything but these potentially helping. IMO She needs to be able to talk about us to someone who will be impartial and help her to decide whether her perception is really what is going on. She also needs someone who will help her determine whether she wants to be married, and if she does... what that means and what her input and responsibilities are to make that happen. And finally, I have tried to discuss things with her, but to no avail. She just listens, but has no or little input. I can't do anything differently if I don't have a clue what I am doing. I can't be better if I don't know what I need to be better at. I have tried to get her to talk with me, but she just won't.

I then explained that if she felt that these things were unacceptable or too much, and it was OK and that all she had to do was let me know. I said that if she didn't want these things, that it was fine. If she felt that these were too much, that I would respect that, and that I would like to make it through the Holidays for the Kids sake, and we could split up in mid January. I asked her to just please let me know one way or the other.

She has not said a word. She has shown me nothing other than kindness and truthfully... love. She has been nice, hugging me significantly more than the months prior. She has actually been more upbeat than normal. But... she has not mentioned anything. And this 'niceness' has occurred several times before, but to no avail. The same issues still are there, and after a week or two... raise their head back into our marriage.

If we are to make it, I think these things or some variant there-on must occur. Since I can't make it happen, I left it to her to do so if she felt invested enough in our marriage to want to continue. I have tried to get her to become engaged in our marriage. She can see we aren't doing well, but I can't figure out what she would like to do about it. I have asked her time and time again, but I have not heard anything in return. I have asked her to choose something... anything... to try differently. The only thing that happens is that she will be Nicer for a while... but it doesn't address the problems... it just makes daily life a little easier to deal with. I love it... don't get me wrong, and my wife with a smile and a twinkle in her eye makes my heart flutter. But, without addressing our issues... such as intimacy... conversation... time alone... etc. It is all window dressing, and doesn't last long.

I love it... don't get me wrong. And I believe she thinks that being nicer will just fix everything. But it has not done anything over the course of multiple attempts during our 18 month marriage. It just feels like another coat of paint over a rusty piece of metal. Looks good for a while, but doesn't really fix the issue.

I would love to engage in our marriage with her. I would love for her to say... "INT... I need this that and the other ENs worked on..." And for her to also say " What do you really need for ME to do for you... My love?" That's all... just that... and to mean it... and then to work on doing it...

INT, I hesitate to post this, but I think you are seriously seeking all input, so I will. I don't know why, but the way you describe your wife reminds me of something, and I can't remember what it was - a book or a movie, maybe even something real in my past. Anyway, it's an impression I've carried with me for decades and your post just made it resurface. But what it was, was a 'picture' of a marriage, wherein one of the two was in something she never meant to be in, something she didn't understand before she said yes, didn't realize what it really meant. So once she got in it, she just resigned herself.

That is the word that keeps popping up when I think of your W - she seems resigned to your marriage, not happy, not mad, just...without emotion, because for whatever reason, she has decided it's not what she planned to get out of life, but that there's nothing else she wants, either.

Nothing to mean that you're wrong, or you've done anything wrong. More like...she thought she knew what she wanted, she went ahead and accepted M and motherhood, and then realized she had made a mistake. But she wasn't going to back out of it, it's what she agreed to, so she's just going to sit it out, until it's over with.

Does that make sense? Of course, I have no earthly idea if your wife is feeling this way; it just reminds me of what I've described, based on what you've told us. And I know that might be painful to hear, but I can't help but want you to consider it, for your own sake. If it were possibly true, that you just aren't what she really planned on and that now she's just depressed about what she chose, I'd rather you find out the truth, so you can both move on. And your kids have to be sensing it, and you don't want them growing up picking their own dysfunctional mates.

I know a lot of women, especially from my age range (40-60), who were raised to think they had to marry, that it didn't particularly mattered if they married for love, as long as they married. I hope I'm wrong, that there's a specific issue you can address. But maybe you can just ask her if this might be what 'it' is.

I do believe that marriage isn't the panacea which she had anticipated. I also believe that living with me has not been exactly what she expected. I hear what you are saying. But truthfully, I don't get that feeling. It seems more like a lack of skill or knowledge on what to do differently rather than resignation to the choice. That might be coming about, but I don't believe that it is the main issue. It occurred almost immediately upon marrying.

It is more of a damage mitigation type defense. Or 'I don't know what to do... so I will just hunker down and hope it gets better.' kind of mentality. I can't explain the lack of sex... it was immediate and hasn't changed. She used to be sensual, playful, inviting, and interactive. That immediately stopped when we became married. I mean our wedding night and honeymoon.

She listend to the CD from Dr. Laura last winter called "The proper care and feeding of a husband." She became must more nice, interactive, and slightly but certainly more noticably sensual... actually initiating sex once or twice. I made the mistake of saying something along the line of "See how well we get along when things like this happen."... something like that, acknowledging the change and encouraging more. She became 'upset' and just stopped. She even said that I shouldn't have said anything, and in so doing, she found she didn't want to do it any more. That was a year ago... I have essentially stopped even trying to initiate love making at all for the last 6-8 months with a couple 'try again' type trys intermixed without any long term success. She has rarely... like twice initiated it in that time. We have had sex about 5-6 times in that time. Not even birthday or anniversary sex. Even though our anniversary hotel overlooked the Big Sur Coast...

Then my next thought is that something traumatic happened that shut her down. Not necessarily in the M, maybe it was something repressed from childhood that surfaced because of getting married, those weird kinds of things, you know? But those are the kinds of things that have to be addressed in real therapy, so...

If you still feel she likes you, then I can only suggest become more creative in seeking solutions until you find the one that clicks with her. Read everything you can get your hands on; attend seminars; etc. Just keep being honest. That kind of thing. Sorry I'm not more helpful.

Here's a glimpse into *my* mind, maybe it is similar to how her mind works...

(scary thought, I know!)


If I am feeling ashamed of some behavior, and I make an effort to do better, I do NOT want to be praised... this was true when I was a kid, more so than it is now. But still, being praised for something that I recognize I should have been doing all along, brings me face-to-face with how bad I had been before. Of course, the delivery makes a huge difference too.

When I read "See how well we get along when things like this happen" I cringed. That sounds to me a lot like "I told you so." and I probably would have also felt bad.

I like what you said here. I regard it as a valuable insite to be applied to all sorts of relationships. I can remember growing up, whenever I would try to improve in some way, I much preferred hearing only the response to the present attempt rather than how it compares to previous ones.I could see for myself the positive gains by doing it better than I had before.This,then, bred incouragement to continue doing the best I could including seeing where I could improve still more the next time I did the thing. I am thinking of my experience with my father.When he would appraise my effort, as I mentioned above, without any reference to past attempts with their shortcomings, I felt accepted, felt a companionship and welcomed the benefit of his experience.

Yes, exactly!

When my mom would praise me, she had a way of doing it... in a sort of exaggerated way, I guess... that just made me feel horrible. I would've rather she had said nothing at all, and it made me feel self-conscious, embarrassed, if I ever did the good behavior again.

I like the way your dad did things.

I see what you are saying Jayne... I suspect perhaps that was the case. I don't really know. Looking at it from your perspective and how she acted when I said it, and afterwards, when she said she 'didn't like that I mentioned it...' it certainly makes sense.

That is the type of game I am NOT good at... trying to figure out the subtleties of PRAISE??? While I understand what you are saying, I have no intrinsic understanding about why someone would 'feel like they should have been doing it all along...' be praised for the change which they understand they themselves actually wanted.... then stop because of the praise.


What do I do? I also here ICH... and maybe that is the way to focus... praise or note the event appropriately as if it had been occurring all along. Looking back, I wish I had... because it was much nicer.

I don't have much time at the moment so I have to be brief.
And I am going to attempt to say this without sounding judgemental.

Taking that event with your wife: I keep thinking that had you done something like putting your hands behind your head and saying perhaps, "Thank you, baby. If you can spare me a little time, I think I'll go wash the car. ( or whatever else was in need of being done.) Instead you seem to have a tendency to separate a particular moment in time from the larger picture and then dissect it, analyize it, trying to see how the individual pieces fit together this time which made it work.I can assure you your wife-women in general-wouldn't respond well to that. Doing this robs the moment of its mystique, and of its spontaneity. It disallowed her to reflect on the moment and draw her own conclusions. And,I think, it denied her-somnthing we all need-a sense of autonomy, independence.

Give this some thought and see if there isn't something in it worth putting away for a rainy day.

Another thought, FWIW:

Examine carefully your statements for DJs. Was your comment truly saying something good about her and about the present, or did you put in a little "jab" about past behavior, or even some "parental" type lecturing or instructing?

You say you are not good at playing "games", but what I'm talking about is actually *eliminating* the games. It isn't easy to examine ourselves, what we are saying, and all the ways we have subtle lectures just beneath the surface.

From what you write, I am getting the idea of you acting as her parent, wanting to instruct her, even if you want to do it in a loving way. I could be wrong of course, that's just the idea I'm getting from what you write.

For example, you praising her, was that to "encourage good behavior" like in a child, or was it to express respectful appreciation toward an equal?

This doesn't have to be about *her* playing games that you are too open and honest to play. It could be about games you are playing, whether you realize it or not.