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It seems to me that this man is in Plan A and his wife hasn't yet bought into permenant no contact yet. Part of Plan A is to act loving even though there is contact. He seems to be doing that. What he mustn't do is allow his wife to think that he condones the contact if he doesn't.
BP, how long have you been in Plan A?
My opinion is that your wife isn't done with the affair yet. When she is she won't want to see the OM at all. She with either feel repulsion for her actions or she will feel sadness and regret. Either way it won't feel good to her once she reaches that point. And she will avoid him.
And really, you can't make her stop seeing him. You can't lock her up and control what she does. You certainly can make it known that it is a selfish thing to do, that you don't agree with it, that you will not take any part in it and that it hurts your marriage everytime she does it.
What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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Is this man a friend to your marriage? No. He is a mortal enemy. Your wife is basically playing in the enemy's camp under the guise of friendship. OM probably gloats over this victory and small bit of control in YOUR marriage. Time to draw a line in the sand.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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BP, while this affair WILL burn out eventually, be assured it IS an imminent danger to your marriage. This is why Dr. Harley recommends PLAN B when the WS will not stop the affair. That is Dr. Harley's take on affairs and that is the advice you should pay close attention to, lest you jeopardize your mental health AND your marriage.
The danger here is that you will fall out of love with her because of the ABUSE she is inflicting on you. An affair is the ultimate LOVEBUSTER and causes the BS to eventually feel hatred and revulsion for the WS if not checked. Once the BS grows to HATE the WS, it is hard to ever turn that back. The marriage is usually over at that point.
There can also be severe consequences to your mental and physical health from tolerating this abuse for months on end. People have nervous breakdowns from being the victim of an affair. They suffer physical problems from the incessant stress. That is a great danger to your family at a time when you are ALL your children have. They need you in top form to protect THEM. You are ALL they have.
My suggestion to you is to EXPOSE the affair to all key parties. Make sure you children are informed first. If she still won't end her affair, then you would want to get a legal seperation and get her moved out and go into Plan B.
You have already been dealing with this for 6 months, which is the maximum recommended time for Plan A. It is not supposed to be a way of life, but a very short plan before PLAN B. Most affairs DO NOT END in Plan A, [only 15%] so Plan B is almost always called for.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Dr Harley: When a WS refuses to leave the lover, there are no good options for the BS. At first, plan A is recommended because there is a slim hope (15%) that, with encouragement, a WS will make the decision to leave the lover. But 85% don't do that, even when plan A is implemented perfectly. That leaves two other choices which are both bad. The first is to continue plan A indefinitely, trying to encourage the WS to leave the lover, and the second is to initiate plan B, which is to completely separate from the WS.
The problem with a coninuation of plan A is that it usually leads to severe emotional symptoms, including years of post-traumatic stress disorder, even when the WS eventually returns. Many women that I've counseled actually have nervous breakdowns in their effort to draw their WS back to them. Instead of making the BS attractive to the WS, plan A actually makes these poor women so unattractive that it completely eliminates all hope of reconciliation. And 95% of all affairs eventually "die a natural death." If you do absolutely nothing, they usually end.
So I've recommended plan B rather early in the effort to separate the WS from his lover. In your case, you've noticed that you have experienced a detached feeling about it all, even your husband's filing for divorce. That's the way it's supposed to turn out. You are far more attractive while in emotional control of yourself than you would ever be begging and pleading for his return. You tried that tactic already, and it hasn't worked.
Plan B doesn't always work, but it does protect you from the intense emotional pain that you could be experiencing day in and day out. Your husband may divorce you, but it won't be because you have implemented plan B. And if he returns to you, it won't be because you have implemented plan B. But if he does return, with a sincere willingness to completely leave his lover and follow our plan for recovery, he'll find a wife who is still sane if you follow plan B.
If your husband goes through with his plan to divorce you, he will be making the biggest mistake of his life. But you will be far less impacted by the emotional fallout if you are in plan B at the time. Don't assume that his actions are your fault. You have done everything you can to get him back. All you can do now is to protect yourself from your husband's second biggest mistake of his life -- his affair.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Melody:
Do you suppose the dynamic changes at all when it is the wife who is having the affair, as in BP's case? (I notice that the exerpt you quoted references female BSs and I wondered if there was a particular reason for Harley making the gender distinction).
I have noticed some differences myself, but I tend to shy away from generalizations. I do wonder if there might be a difference in the length of time for Plan A, for example.
And I also think that Plan B has a better chance of working if it's done with coaching.....but that's just based on my imperfect observation of forum posters.
PK
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Mel:
A few important differences between bigpic2res sitch and the exmaple from Dr Harley you quote:
*WS is the W
*WW isn't "with" the OM, so isn't being enticed 2 "re2rn" physcially, or "leave the lover" physically.
*WW hasn't filed for DV.
*The A is dying, if it's not already dead. NC is the next objective, but it likely won't require "brute force" 2 achieve (but it WILL require resolve and firmness from bp)
-ol' 2long
It is a general error to suppose the loudest complainers for the public [Rush Limbaugh] to be the most anxious for its welfare. - Edmund Burke
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pk, the dynamic does change to a small degree based on gender, but the only difference is the timelines, which would not be an issue here. Dr Harley claims that men can handle Plan A a little longer than women. For example, for women 6 weeks is recommended, for men 6 months is the usual maximum. Men do suffer the same mental and physical symptoms as do women, women just tend to experience them SOONER. Women tend to self destruct much faster than men.
So, the only difference in the advice to go to Plan B would be the TIMELINE, which is not even discussed above.
I will point out that the suicides we know of here, were all MEN. We had one man who shot himself and then BobPure had a friend who hung himself.
Getting coaching with Plan B from Steve Harley would be the IDEAL solution and I hope he takes that advice. He doesn't HAVE to do it, of course, but it would be an enormous help, IMO.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel:
A few important differences between bigpic2res sitch and the exmaple from Dr Harley you quote:
*WS is the W
*WW isn't "with" the OM, so isn't being enticed 2 "re2rn" physcially, or "leave the lover" physically.
*WW hasn't filed for DV.
*The A is dying, if it's not already dead. NC is the next objective, but it likely won't require "brute force" 2 achieve (but it WILL require resolve and firmness from bp)
-ol' 2long 2long, the WS most certainly is STILL with the OM, the affair is still on. And it has no indication of dying, nor does it make a difference. Dr. Harley always recommends Plan B when the affair doesn't end. That is not gender specific advice, it matters not if divorce has been filed, it is advice given to ALL marriages where the affair does not end. You have been here long enough to know that. Plan B is not considered "DRASTIC," affairs are DRASTIC, which is why Plan B is the next step. I agree that it will require "firmness" from bp, but that will most likely come in the form of plan B. 85% of affair DO NOT END in Plan A, which is why Plan B is called for.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What I would do if I were in his shoes, is expose the affair and see if that kills it. Cause as much conflict as possible for the affairees and see if that does the trick. If that doesn't do it, THEN get a legal separation and then go into Plan B.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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BP, I would like to add one other thing:
You seem to be viewing this as a "competition" between you and the OM, and believe that your WW is struggling to choose between you.
You seem to think that your task here is to prove to your WW that you are the better choice, and if you can just do that she will dump OM and choose you.
You have GOT to understand that your WW is NOT trying to choose between you and OM - not for one second.
She wants what virtually all WSs want -- she wants BOTH of you.
She wants both the comfort and security of marriage (you) AND the fun and excitement of dating (OM), and has convinced herself that she is so special and entitled or (fill in the blank) that it's okay for HER to behave this way.
She is thrilled that she's apparently found a way to have both, and can't figure out why everybody doesn't live this way -- guess they're just not as smart and clever and special as she is.
She adores having TWO men fighting over her and working hard to fill her ENs, and is high on this attention all the time.
THAT is what she wants.
Don't think for a minute that poor poor WS is struggling to make a choice.
She wants BOTH of you and you can be certain that she will keep this arrangement going for as long as she possibly can - in other words, for as long as you can be persuaded to be part of it. (We are talking YEARS here - a permanent lifestyle - if you are willing.)
That's why you need Plan B, because Plan B kicks one of the three legs out from this dynamic and causes it to fall over.
I hope you understand what I am trying to tell you. Many, many BS make the same mistake and think the WS is trying to "choose".
They're not.
Mulan
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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My take on your situation is a little different. I think there's some merit to the idea of allowing the affair flame to burn itself completely out. And I'm not convinced this OM is an imminent danger to your marriage. I seriously doubt that those folks on this site who have endured LTAs lasting 5, 10 or more years would agree with you SC... I hate being one of these kinds of "experts", but I can see the point that SC is making here. My W's VLTA lasted about 11 years. During that time, she never left her family 2 be with RM. D-day was 6 years ago next week. I never did plan B. She hung on2 the "friendship" in spite of my protests for at least 3 years of infrequent contact (2 states away, only 2 in-person contacts in public, an important difference from bp's sitch). The A most definitely died (RM is remarried). Telling BP that is gravely irresponsible of you... I wouldn't call this irresponsible at all. Certainly not "gravely" so. I do reiterate that it is critically important that bp apply some finesse 2 his plan A, with the help of the professionals, 2 get NC established. No coercion. If he makes a demand, the results will mean little even if she complies. If he entices her 2 agree 2 NC, on the other hand, it'll mean everything because SHE chose it. He does, first and foremost, need 2 stop even appearing 2 the twisted WS interpretation engine 2 be amenable 2 continued contact right now, though. The "finesse" part includes doing so respectfully, and leaving the choice ultimately up 2 his W. doesn't surprise me though...I think that sometimes you just enjoy disagreeing around here for disagreement's sake...It's far from cute...These are people's real lives yanno... Mrs W. You're bigger than this. That's all I have 2 say. And you're not convinced that this OM is an imminent danger? I'm convinced that he's a danger 2 the M (though you weren't asking me). However, lack of NC is also a danger 2 the M. Ending these influences is entirely up 2 the individuals causing them. WW and OM. BP is wise 2 make the OM as much of a non-issue as he is able 2, all the while clearly stating his boundaries regarding other men interfering with his marriage. BP is also wise 2 "work with" the positive steps that his W has made back 2 the marriage, all the while carefully enticing her 2 choose NC of her own free will. The danger does remain, of course, that she will choose 2 keep her "friendship" no matter how hard bp tries 2 entice her 2 fully commit 2 him. It does happen. But if she does choose her friend over the M, bp can get himself in an emotionally-healthy position such that he's able 2 happily move on 2 a better relationship. Ultimately, if the WS isn't willing 2 recommit 2 the M, the BS is better off without them anyway. HUH? You are taking the word of an active wayward...UNREAL!!!
Are you still pals with your OMs? Mrs W: You have the power 2 rise above this. -ol' 2long
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What I would do if I were in his shoes, is expose the affair and see if that kills it. Cause as much conflict as possible for the affairees and see if that does the trick. If that doesn't do it, THEN get a legal separation and then go into Plan B. I didn't realize that he hasn't exposed the A. This would be a simple dose of reality 2 administer. But I think he should call the Harleys right away, 2. 15% isn't great odds, but it's nothing like the length of those of an affair marriage surviving. I'd be very interested 2 see the specifics of the plan that the Harleys would apply 2 the particulars of this sitch, right now. With time, things could drastically change, no matter who does what. That's why I think finesse is important now. -ol' 2long
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I hate being one of these kinds of "experts", but I can see the point that SC is making here. My W's VLTA lasted about 11 years. During that time, she never left her family 2 be with RM. D-day was 6 years ago next week. I never did plan B. She hung on2 the "friendship" in spite of my protests for at least 3 years of infrequent contact (2 states away, only 2 in-person contacts in public, an important difference from bp's sitch). The A most definitely died (RM is remarried). 2long, you just proved her point. While your wife's affair did eventually end, it was a long term affair that was likely prolonged by your own behavior. Most people could never endure that assault for years on end as you did. The Harleys would certainly never recommend it. And I believe even today your wife feels she can be "friends" sometime in the future? Isn't that what you told us? I wouldn't call this irresponsible at all. Certainly not "gravely" so. I do reiterate that it is critically important that bp apply some finesse 2 his plan A, with the help of the professionals, 2 get NC established. If by "finesse" you mean a VERY SHORT TIME before he goes into Plan B, but I have my druthers that Plan A will do the trick. As Dr Harley stated, plan A only works in 15% of affairs. No coercion. If he makes a demand, the results will mean little even if she complies. If he entices her 2 agree 2 NC, on the other hand, it'll mean everything because SHE chose it. I believe he has done this already. It is unrealistic to believe it work now. Nothing wrong with COERCION, though, it is part and parcel of plan A. BP is wise 2 make the OM as much of a non-issue as he is able 2, all the while clearly stating his boundaries regarding other men interfering with his marriage. BP is also wise 2 "work with" the positive steps that his W has made back 2 the marriage, all the while carefully enticing her 2 choose NC of her own free will. 2long, the problem here is that BP has no boundaries. He is ENABLING her affair. He is not "enticing" her to do anything, he has given her no motivation to end her love affair with TWO MEN. Enabling is not "ENTICING" someone to do the right thing. What is called for here is NOT a life long Plan A, not more enabling of her "friendship," but the practice and implemtation of Marriage Builders principles. Which is a) exposure and b) implementation of Plan B if/when Plan A fails to end the affair.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But I think he should call the Harleys right away, 2. 15% isn't great odds, but it's nothing like the length of those of an affair marriage surviving. I'd be very interested 2 see the specifics of the plan that the Harleys would apply 2 the particulars of this sitch, right now. The point is, 2long, that it takes BOTH Plan A *AND* Plan B. That is the expectation. It is not an expectation that Plan A will bust up the affair. It takes BOTH A and B. Plan A is not intended to be WAY OF LIFE, and unfortunately, many enablers and conflict avoiders abuse it as such. The Harleys do have a PLAN, which is published on this site and in their books, it is called Plan A and Plan B. He doesn't have to get coaching to know what their plan is, although, I agree SH could be extremely helpful in coaching him through all the specifics.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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2long, you just proved her point. While your wife's affair did eventually end, it was a long term affair that was likely prolonged by your own behavior. Most people could never endure that assault for years on end as you did. Well, it is incorrect 2 state simply that I endured the A for years on end. It was 11 years old when I found it. The PA had ended before i found out, and the EA burned out over the next 2ple years. And all the while, RM was over there and my W was over here. The Harleys would certainly never recommend it. The Harleys are also uncomfortable with LTAs in general. I felt, very strongly, that I was pretty much "on my own" with my recovery (not slighting the Harleys with that remark, it's just how I felt). At first, that was hard. For the past 2ple of years, though, I've been enjoying the process. And I believe even today your wife feels she can be "friends" sometime in the future? Isn't that what you told us? That's what I told you. It's been a while ago, though. I don't believe that anymore. RM isn't currently a factor in our recovery. I don't believe he will be again. But if he becomes one, I'll deal with it. I wouldn't call this irresponsible at all. Certainly not "gravely" so. I do reiterate that it is critically important that bp apply some finesse 2 his plan A, with the help of the professionals, 2 get NC established. If by "finesse" you mean a VERY SHORT TIME before he goes into Plan B, but I have my druthers that Plan A will do the trick. As Dr Harley stated, plan A only works in 15% of affairs. By finesse, yes I do mean a VERY SHORT TIME - specifically NOW - that bp get going with the pros. And let them help him decide whether he should do plan B if that's necessary. That's what I meant. No coercion. If he makes a demand, the results will mean little even if she complies. If he entices her 2 agree 2 NC, on the other hand, it'll mean everything because SHE chose it. I believe he has done this already. It is unrealistic to believe it work now. Nothing wrong with COERCION, though, it is part and parcel of plan A. Enticing someone else 2 make healthy choices is always better than telling them what 2 do. If that doesn't work, then there are other steps. BP is wise 2 make the OM as much of a non-issue as he is able 2, all the while clearly stating his boundaries regarding other men interfering with his marriage. BP is also wise 2 "work with" the positive steps that his W has made back 2 the marriage, all the while carefully enticing her 2 choose NC of her own free will. 2long, the problem here is that BP has no boundaries. He is ENABLING her affair. He is not "enticing" her to do anything, he has given her no motivation to end her love affair with TWO MEN. Enabling is not "ENTICING" someone to do the right thing. What is called for here is NOT a life long Plan A, not more enabling of her "friendship," but the practice and implemtation of Marriage Builders principles. Which is a) exposure and b) implementation of Plan B if/when Plan A fails to end the affair. All with the help of the authors of the methods (not principles). And until bp coaches with one of them, or with someone trained by them, we'll never know how they'd recommend the methods be applied 2 this particular sitch. -ol' 2long
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All with the help of the authors of the methods (not principles). And until bp coaches with one of them, or with someone trained by them, we'll never know how they'd recommend the methods be applied 2 this particular sitch. Well, yes we do know, 2long. We can read the principles published here and in the books, just as the Harleys intended. That is the purpose of this forum and the books. They don't expect everyone to have to shell out $185 for counseling. That is why they publish their principles on this website and tell people how to deal with adultery. They expect that people can come here and save their marriages by reading about and learning the principles on this forum. That is WHY they set up this forum in the first place. Plan A and Plan B. That is how affairs are handled according to the Harleys.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Well then. There you go.
bp:
Do what Mel suggests.
Disregard what I said above.
-ol' 2long
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Just as an FYI, BP's tag line says he did a plan B, for one night. It might help to hear what was meant by that, perhaps someone else knows.
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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BP,
Just want to clarify that I was in no way suggesting that I think it's okay for your wife to pal around with OM. It's obviously not, and you have already conceded that point several times. I just have a different take on "what it all means".
--SC
"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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Just as an FYI, BP's tag line says he did a plan B, for one night. It might help to hear what was meant by that, perhaps someone else knows. I believe he got mad and stayed out one night after he found out she had sex with her "friend" back on December 20th: LA,
Thank you for your help. I am desperate for advice. I feel I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown if I have to experience one more moment with their contact. I know I can't go home. I can't stand and won't tolerate the attitude she gave me yesterday. Especially after I am sure she spent the day with him, that they probably had sex. And then she came home with Xmas presents for our families. She said you don't have to ask anybody about my whereabouts because I don't have to lie (confirmation of seeing him). That was the last straw for me. I cannot look at her again right now, too much pain. I am so angry with her I can't believe she is throwing it in my face. Said I didn't have to call accountability partner to check on her lunch plans because she doesn't have to lie about anything. These things she said and did last night made me believe its for sure over with us. But overall I kept my cool despite showing lots of pain in my expressions and we went to a Landmark introductory meeting (personal growth kind of stuff recommended by friend that before we make any decisions we attend). OM even called her during the meeting!!!! F*** F*** F***. I cannot take anymore. I will not take anymore. She sees that I am at the end of my rope.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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