Hey cool!

Mel, why don't you just post for me? You seem 2 know better than I do what I said and what I meant.

bk:

Mulan's post was right on the money. My W even said: "I'd hate 2 think that I would ever have 2 choose". But that was July 2002. I'm sure she'd be utterly embarrassed if I reminded her of what she said then.

Seriously, Mel:


No. If you think I'm suggesting that, I guess that would make your interpretation of what I said... ...what's the term? Wrong?, perhaps? But that's JMHO. What do you think I'm saying is probably more relevant here.


I wouldn't presume 2 know how long his plan A should be/have been. Years? That's your word.

That's why I suggested he call the Harleys. They can be a lot more help than we can in this sitch, because they will be able 2 discuss it candidly with him. We can't.


Heck, I endured it for 11 years. I endured negotiating it's end for 3 years, yes. Plan A? If you want 2 label it that, yes. So what? If I was able 2 hack it, isn't that all that's important 2 me and my family? Are you calling me a failure in some way, unable 2 help bp out?


Yes. 5 years ago, perhaps was the last time she "told me" she would resume. About 3 and a half years ago, she "asked me" if she could resume. I said no. More accurately, I said "if that's what you want, I want you 2 have what you think you want. But I won't stay married 2 you if you have anything 2 do with him for the rest of your life."

But maybe I should have had her drawn and quartered, instead.

No, it's on her bulletin board.

Maybe I should just shoot her.


You tell me. You seem 2 have it all choreographed.

-ol' 2long

No, I truly don't. If I have misunderstood you in any way, I would welcome the correction. But it seems as if you are AGREEING with Smartcookie when you say:


And I believe that is exactly what you did in your own marriage. You were in Plan A for YEARS. If that is not what you are advocating to bigpicture, then please accept my apologies.

My suggestion to BP is that he follow the Harley's advice and utilize PLAN B, because Plan A is not intended to be a WAY OF LIFE. In fact, it can be downright dangerous to one's mental health, as Dr. Harley has stipulated.

WHAT???

It doesn't matter, Mel. I said what I said. All I could try 2 do is possibly clarify better than I did initially. If I thought that would evoke a respectful or humble response, I might put some effort in2 it. But I don't believe it will.


I was. But I wasn't offering "instructions" 2 bp, just something 2 consider.


Except for the term "exactly" being applied 2 an, at best very generally-described his2ry of events, this is true.


If it was plan A, I couldn't even tell you when I stopped it, or even if I have.


Well, I thought it was pretty clear that I wasn't advocating that, so I graciously accept your humble apology.


And my suggestion is identical, except that I suggest he follow it from either Steve or Jennifer's own mouth, and applied specifically 2 his specific circumstances at this specific time.


Agreed. Life can be dangerous 2 our mental health. Adversity can kill us even. It can also make us healthier, if we 2rn it in2 oppor2nity 2 grow as individuals.

I'd like 2 think that's what I did.

But you probably have a different idea.

-ol' 2long

2Long, I am not for a minute dismissing the success of your marriage. This is your definition of success, therefore it is. However, you went through 3+ years of Plan A to get where you are today. I will tell you unequivocally, that I could not do that without having a nervous breakdown or going postal and shooting someone. Most people CANNOT endure long durations of ABUSE and torment without mental and physical repercussions.

This is why Dr. Harley says he developed Plan B. It is to protect folks the emotional fallout of the affair. So, while you were able to endure it, I have no reason to believe that Bigpicture can, most especially since he just said 3 weeks ago that he felt he was "having a nervous breakdown" and was at the end of his rope.

Since that time, things have actually WORSENED in his marriage. His W now REFUSES to end her affair and he is so beaten down that he trying to rationalize keeping her lover as a "friend." That is how far down this guy has gone. He is willing to accept all this abuse because she is being NICE to him this week and because he is flat mentally worn out from the assault. He has lost his bearings.

My goal here is not to dismiss your apparent progress, and I am sorry if it came across like that, but to ALERT this man to the very REAL DANGERS of a continuation of Plan A. I have absolutely no confidence that he can endure it like you did. I know that I would not be able to do it myself and I have endured some pretty bad crap.

So, we're largely in agreement, then.

And I didn't change my 2ne at all.

I don't know if anybody remembers it, but back in the first half of 2002, I had some similarly desperate moments. I ac2ally went on a 10-mile "walk" through the high desert in a blizzard, drunk, with no intention of re2rning, less than 2 months after d-day.

I know about how bp feels. And I agree, this is tantamount 2 an emergency si2ation, if he's in that much pain right now.

Hence the suggestion that he make the call and get the help from the source, not from us.

-ol' 2long

Thanks, BigK.
Mulan

bp:

Here's an "old" Harley column that deals with an unfaithful wife. You can see elements of the advice you're getting from many parties in it. See if it helps...

You guys and gals are the best!! You're all on here giving your valuable time with great points of view and opinions all for the benefit of helping me figure a way out of this mess and into a new great marriage. Thank you all.


Harley's words from link above: This is exactly where I am at.

Since I launched plan B (yes it only lasted one day because my wife agreed to all conditions the next morning) we have had some setbacks but I feel the progress continues. Judge for yourself…

Tuesday I found an email confirming they had seen each other. I asked her what they did. Here is her string of texts:
He stopped by to get my opinion on a photo for a magazine shoot. He didn’t stay long. He is not the other guy. You are the only guy.

Please believe me. I want you and OUR family. I did not let him kiss me and I told him I would tell you that he stopped by.

I am sorry that I let him in our house. It won’t happen again. (after I told her that was unacceptable.)

I am really sorry. I want this to work too. I finally realize what I would be jeopardizing if I continued a relationship with him. I don’t want to lose you.

I knew you wouldn’t like it (him at our house) but I didn’t think that it was unacceptable to you. Now I know. I am so sorry. (Finally my boundaries are becoming clear to both of us!)

Everyday I stare at the picture of us on my computer. This morning (in bed) I had that Velcro feeling with you. You were on my mind all day.

Tuesday evening at dinner I gave her a letter (and told her) that expressed how much it hurt me today when she contacted OM. She asked what she could do to start making it up to me and I said she could start by changing her cell phone #. She started crying (in the restaurant) I think because she really sees now how much I don’t trust her. More fog clearing. She also offered to come to my work for lunch everyday if it would help. At home more SF, as it has been every day since New Years day. Our previous record was 11 days and W wants to break that. She actually said goal of 30 days in a row so it would help us get reconnected quickly.

First thing yesterday morning she called me to “check in”. She said she would call me hourly with updates on her whereabouts and schedule. Her string of texts went like this:

You are my density. (Running joke we have from Back To The Future)

I have so much faith in you. My hope is that you will feel the same about me soon.

I love you. I can’t believe we are about to celebrate 17 years together. (Anniversary is 1/12)

During her long drive she asked me what my top 10 priorities are. We talked for 30 minutes. When I got home from work W was crying while making dinner. AAhhh, perfect opp to meet some EN's I thought to myself. I listened and affirmed her as she ranted about DS16 & crazy mutt dog. We hugged lots. She asked why my eyes were red (I was crying on the drive home cuz I was feeling scared about the possibility of her continuing A).

At that she asked if we could talk in private. She told me she only had one phone call from OM that lasted 2 and a half minutes. She showed me the cell phone log. She said her only real comment to OM was that she was not going to jeopardize her marriage anymore. After that they really didn't have much to say. She said to me she thought they could be friends but after the awkward conversation she sees its not really possible. Then she said she felt down about that and that was another reason she was crying when I got home. (So now we have some withdrawal feelings.)

And most of the evening after dinner she asked me not to come into her office as she was making me an anniversary gift (the kids were in there lots so she wasn’t just hiding communication with OM). She said I should not get her anything as I had done enough lately. Part of what she meant is this and I want to share this because I am bragging but also because someone else may be able to use this romantic idea:

Months ago during this ordeal I created a list of 100 reasons I love her. There were many times I wanted to give it to her but I waited for the right moment. Christmas was it. But I didn’t just give her a paper list. I cut out 100 hearts on red paper, wrote the phrases on each one, stapled them to a white ribbon and strung them around the Christmas tree. I was up til 5am Xmas eve. It was perfect because that was our 2nd tree which W turned into a theme tree of just red and white decorations. The tree even has a motorized spin so I didn’t have to walk around to hang the hearts. Cool! Xmas morning DS6 was 1st downstairs with W close behind and DS said “Look Santa gave us notes!” Big love account deposits no?!

And of course more SF last night.

I also confirmed in her email (I have her password, thanks keyloggers) that she was deleting some of his emails. Not all but a select few that talked about her giving us only 1 more month back on 12/17.

Despite everyone’s suggestion to go to plan B I think I will stick this out some more. I hope I don’t get burned but I am monitoring for setbacks. I think she is making progress towards NC and sees the realities of the boundaries we need.

Since 12/21 my emotional sitch has improved drastically so I can deal with the contact if it continues. And I will verify and push for transparency.

This is really great. Nothing better than for HER to realize it herself.

I suggest getting His Needs/Her Needs on CD so you can listen to it TOGETHER. Take a road trip with her, maybe over the Martin Luther King long weekend, and play the CD. It really helped my wife and I. It works because you are trapped in the car and you don't have to have eye contact. You can pause and discuss but discussion isn't mandatory.

I am encouraged by your Plan A. The only reason things blew up on this thread is you came at it backwards asking if a continuing friendship was OK. If you had posted how good things were going but still had to overcome with typically wayward belief that they could be friends you would have gotten more encouragement. Many BS's would kill for the opportunity to Plan A like you've got here.

I, too, endured a couple weeks of residual or closure contact. It's scary and playing with fire (but, at least, the OM in our life was 750 miles away and NOT stopping by my home). Keep monitoring her closely. Steve Harley discusses establishing a plan for no contact. Your wife needs guidance on how to go about it. She is way to caught up in not being rude ("he just stopped by", "I didn't know it was unacceptable", "It was only a minute and a half"). She needs to come up with a plan, with your assistance and NOT your demands (preferably), to help her STOP this, as she says above, unworkable "friendship".

Such as:

What to do if he calls???

Solution: Change number, don't answer, let it go to answering machine and don't listen to machine....let YOU listen first.

What to do if he stops by???

Don't answer door...call YOU, immediately

What to do if she sees him out and about???

Walk away...don't linger...don't speak to him and then she won't have ANY conversation to explain to you and make you uncertain if its the truth.

What to do if he hounds her???

Consider restraining order....carry a whistle with her and blow it if he approaches her saying "stay away from me" (she'll not have to do this more than once)

Finally, there are some good threads herein about withdrawal written by former wayward spouses. Read up about what she's about to go through. Link her to the topics, if she's receptive or copy them and leave them laying around for her to read (try to resist the urge to GIVE them to her as she is less likely to read them that way).


Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

bp:

This is so very cool!

I get goosebumps when things go this well in difficult times.

Just don't let your guard down.

And continue 2 be a loving, devoted H.

So cool!

-ol' 2long

***edited. TOS violation, harassment of posters***

MyRev:

Have you been reading what just happened here?

bp is welcome 2 look up my old posts. There all there. I'm not perfect, and haven't handled my recovery perfectly. Forget shooting my W for keeping that pic2re. Shoot me!


And besides, I acknowledged that Mel knows what I mean and what should be done far better than I could.

Bp also knows he can (and needs 2) take what advice he sees fit.

-ol' 2long

***edited***

2long was one of the posters here who helped me to change my life. I value his advice today as much as I valued it when I was a stumbling, bumbling, mass of incoherency.

Anyone who manages to save his marriage after the 11 year affair he had no knowledge of to the place it is today, has my utmost respect.

The recovery time of a very long term affair can be as long as the VLTA itself.

And this place is not only about advice, it is about support, compassion and the sharing of ideas. At least it used to be.

I understand your point. I too am left shaking my head at some of the ridiculous things that spouses put up with. I have come to see that some posters are able to give decent advice regardless of their own situations.

I can see 2Long giving advice here as compared to the thread where the spouse came across a picture of the OM in his wife's diary.

I think 2Long...even though his cleverness gets in the way sometimes, gives pretty good advice. He might be a bit too tolerant of some things for my taste, but others find him helpful.

The reason I hesitated posting my feelings, was just what you've posted here ... I knew someone would take my words "personally".

It was not my intent to dump on 2long ... we all have different tolerances of what we will accept.

However, I do think its important for a new poster to evaluate the state of an advisor's M to see if that is what the new poster is seeking for themselves. We all have different tastes and personalities ... what works for one, may not work for the other. Therefore, we should choose wisely where we accept advice from.

...and yes, I think newbies are here looking for "advice" and answers to what is happening to them. I know I was a mess when I first came here, wondering what the he11 just happened, and what was I going to do next.

***edited for TOS violation---harassment of other posters***

I'm rather new, but surely this has come up before.

edited for citing above TOS violation

***edited for TOS violation***

Josie:

You're far 2kind. Give yourself a whole lot more credit and me much less. In the end, we do our best when we sift through the advice we hear, and make our own decisions as they apply 2 our particular sitches.

-ol' 2long

***edited---cleanup***

bp:

I'm proud of you (even though I'm "tolerant" of such bad behavior in my own marriage).

You done good. Just keep doing it!

-ol' 2long