FWH and I have been working on recovery since Nov, and some things have come up that I'm feeling not so good about. I'm sorry this is so long, but I need to vent!

Some things about FWH...he is very PA and struggles w/depression, went through a MLC.

A few weeks ago he came off the AD, which I asked him not to do. I feel like that has contributed to some of the recent issues as when he starts getting down (which he seems to be for the last week) I really see the self-centered behaviors come out.

So here are some of the things that have happened....

Last Fri, he was talking about something work-related. Since he recently started the job, I was asking him about his coworkers, their names and ages and, um, if they were attractive. He seemed uncomfortable. When I asked what was wrong, he told me that my questions did make him uncomfortable and that if I continued "backing him into a corner" each time he talked about work, he would probably start to shy away from telling me about work. He said he wasn't telling me that I couldn't ask him those types of questions but that he was just trying to be O&H about his feelings.

I understood what he was saying, but I was still hurt because I thought part of his "just compensation" was to answer those types of questions even tho they made him uncomfortable. I told him that. He stuck to his position and I stuck to mine so the issue didn't get resolved...

Later that same night, he went to a friend's house. I had discussed my concern that he not stay out too late since we had a big family day planned for the next day.(he has been working a lot lately and has been really wiped.) He said he would be home around 11-11:30pm and that he would check in around 10pm. He never called. At midnight I checked in on him and he said he would be home soon. He didn't get home until 2am. They had played beirut (a freakin college drinking game!) and he had drank too much.

The next morning I told him I was upset and that I felt what he had done was inconsiderate. I told him I thought his telling me that asking about attraction/coworkers was making him uncomfortable was inconsiderate. OK, yes, I got carried away. I started to talk about rebuilding trust, how much everthing had hurt me...

During the argument, when it came up he said the EA, etc, were "inevitable". Talk about reopening the wound! Inevitable? What about 100% not acceptable under any circumstances like he had agreed to earlier?? (He later retracted, apologized and said he doesn't know why he said that, but only because I approached him about it.)

We have talked through all of the issues and we are in a better place, but in general I feel not as optimistic as I did before about how this is going to work out.

I feel as though I have worked hard to make changes, to make fulfilling his needs a priority, do the small things that will make him happy. I see his PA-ness as such a big part of the problem...agreeing to do things that he knows will make me happy and then not being able to follow through on it.

For example, part of his just compensation we had discussed in counseling was to make an effort to ask me on dates, weekly if possible, even if only to go out for a couple of drinks for an hour while we got a sitter. The counselor thought this was something he should do to show me the M was a priority in addition to how important it is for us to spend some time together outside of the house. He has only been able to follow through on this one time. I have told him several times how much it would mean to me if he could follow through on it. He says he loves going out on these dates with me and will follow through...never does...

I'm trying to learn more about PA issues, reading Mulan's links. I want to be patient. FWH does love me, his family, but a part of me wonders, is it always going to be such a struggle?

Welcome to my world. At least before the A and during the A before it was found out. Now he is gone, but his games absolutely do not end.

There is a book I read called Living with the PA man. I swear it should say living with WS. It will help you to understand some things and give you tools to live in that type of relationship. I think what I got most from it, was. We can't change who they are, however we can find ways that are acceptable to us and not crazy making that we can live with.

It's kind of like living with an active alcoholic. Some people manage to stay in that relationship and have it be successful for them, but they do some hard work around how to get there.

You can't stop his behaviors. You can learn how to live with them, confront them, or set boundaries. I'm not exactly sure which ways will work for you.

Hope this helps... Someone chime in if I am wrong, too please.

In another post about PA... there was a link to an article called "The boomerang relationship"...It's about PA relationships... Charicteristics... what role the other person plays... etc...

After I read it I felt like CRAP!!! I had an epiphany of sorts... alot of the same things my wife was always complaining about were in that article... I really started to see some things from her point of view.... Made me feel lower than whale ****** when I realized how frustrated I must have made her when I did the things I did...

One of the things I realized is... I do the things I do as a way of avoiding expressing unpleasant fealings...I don't want or know how to express my feelings... It's just hard for me to do...


Just my opinion but it appears that he's trying to tell you how he feels...

For lack of a better term... He may need to be "Mommied" a little bit to encourage this... If you discount his feelings he'll keep going back to those PA tendencies...

Just my humble opinion... If I told you how I felt and you made me feel like crap for feeling that way... Do you think I'm going to want to share my feelings with you again? Especially if it's already hard for me to do?...

I asked my counselor if I had PA tendencies... The ignore game etc...

One of the things she suggested was to start a journal... the idea being...If I put my feelings down on paper... it allows me to express my feelings... If I can write it on paper maybe I can verbalize it easier...

Maybe you can try this....

"I understand how you feel and I am so glad you're able to talk to me about it. Please understand that I am just trying to feel safe in this relationship by asking those questions. If it makes you feel unconfortable then maybe there's another way we can communicate about the subject without making either one of us unconfortable or unsafe."


Date night...
Instead of having him ask you out on a date... why don't you two pick one night a week thats designated as "the date night"

I know a couple that has Friday night as their date night...Every friday after work they go to their favorite pub or restaraunt... to have a good time and socialize... They like it so much that they can't wait for fridays to get here.

Thanks, Q, for the response. I hadn't seen your thread yet, so I'll be reading through it..I'm interested to read your story.

I'm going to check out the book you suggested. I'm so glad to have found out about PA. For the months leading up to the EA, I described FWH as being very resentful towards me though I couldn't understand why. Wow, it started to all come together when I read "The Boomerang Relationship."

I think under normal circumstances, I could manage living with the PA behaviors, not take it so personally, but since we're in recovery, when FWH acts self-centered or doesn't do his part to meet my EN's, it is drawing on the pain I still feel from the EA, bar-kiss, lies, etc, etc.

I told him yesterday how discouraged I feel, to throw me a bone and to follow through on something!!

He said he wants to take me out on Friday, and he actually got the air pump out and finally filled my new stability ball(something I have been asking him to do for weeks since I don't know how to use the special pump that we have). Wow, he does care, LOL. I guess we'll see what happens Fri...

TBP,


Unfortunately, it will remain a struggle for a long, long time. Futher misfortune is that your FWH isn't really completely on board with what he must do for your marriage to actually recover.

I am certain that he knew that staying out til 3 am would be something you would not agree to, yet he did it anyway.

IMHO, no FWS should EVER be going out with friends til 3 am without their BS!

Sorry, but IMO, until he accepts what he must do, ie. just compensation, complete openess and honesty, no matter how uncomfortable it makes him, and POJA, you aren't really going to be able to truly recover.

Too bad that he can't realize that when he doesn't like discussing his new coworkers and whether he finds them attractive or not, well, you are only going to assume that he is attracted to one of his female coworkers. Not a very secure situation that will allow you to learn to trust him again.

I've been down this road and it's a dead end.

Best,

Who

He's telling you how he feels, and is being O&H.

Your instincts are on high alert right now, and every time he talks about another woman, coworkers, you become uneasy. I know, I've been there. Don't let him talk you out of asking him questions, but don't make the whole conversation revolve around your question/answer session. Just hearing him out can do your relationship a world of good. If he's talking, and all you are thinking about is your next question, then you are not hearing him.

Now, as far as the dates go, if you follow the Harleys on this, both of you should be planning this time together. If you wait for him to do all of the planning, especially if he IS depressed, you could find yourself disappointed over and over again, and spend NO time together. It may not be fair, but you may have to take the reigns for now, and make plans.

You are 50% responsible for your recovery, and if you put all the changing and arranging on him, it will probably fail, or at least suffer and take longer. Remember, you are recovering not only from infidelity, but from the poor marriage you guys had before any affairs. YOu must fix the problems that came before the As.

It's quite early in your recovery and these behaviors don't change overnight. I can only reassure you that if you make changes in yourself, you will FEEL better, and you may notice changes in your FWH along the way.

Hang in there, tbp.

P.S.
Recognize that PA behavior can only exist in the right environment, meaning, if you change how you interact with your FWH, he will be forced to find another way to communicate with you. IN other words, he will still BE PA, but he won't be able to USE that in your R. Read up on boundaries, codependency. I found out I was part of the problem, and ME changing was part of the solution. Just a thought.

Amazin,

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.

"Boomerang" was definitely an ah-ha read for me! I showed it to FWH ~ he agreed it describes him. But at the same time...very much like it says in the article...he is the type who distracts himself from his problems rather than think, deal, reflect on it at all.



I did kind of approach him in this way, and we have talked about it some more but I can totally tell the resentment is building with me asking these types of questions at all. I think even tho he told me a better way to ask him, it's still going to be walking on eggshells to ask him anything related to that.

As for the date night, I really like your idea. FWH's schedule changes from week to week, but maybe we could find a way to set up a system. I don't know why I'm hung up on this one issue...I still wish he could make more effort...ugs...

Thanks again for listening <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Who.



Nail on the head. I think that's exactly what I'm really worried about...

Agree with WhoMe. My recovery is going very slowly because I have a spouse who is not following MB, and doesn't have any other course for our recovery. I've found that working on myself has done me a world of good, and put his responsibilities to our M sqaure in his lap.

Silent, thanks for taking the time to reply.

I hear you about the 50% and doing my part as well. Since this has all happened, I have thought, analyzed our M, events leading up to the A ad nauseum.

I see where I was not meeting his EN's and I have really worked on making those changes.

In terms of making the plans for date night, I really had been making most of the arrangements. The date nights kind of got put on hold because FWH had been really busy getting ready for an interview for a promotion, which he got and then further on hold since he's still working his reg job and then spending a lot of time on the transition.

Maybe that was the part that hurt me, he finally had a night off and he made plans with friends. I said, I wish we were going out, I could really use a night out...he said we will soon...


I'm going to read up on the things that you mentioned...but could you explain more? Could you give me an example/s? I'm trying to understand my role, my part in the PA dance...really...

Have you looked into implementing the Dr. Harley recommended 15 hours per week for spouses to spend with each other?

It's not surprising that you are hurt that his first night free is spent with his buds instead of you. Here is a link to his article We Don't Spend Enough Time With Each Other. An excerpt says, "Most spouses fail to give each other enough of their time each week. It not only accounts for failure to meet important emotional needs, it also creates a great deal of emotional discomfort. It could easily be argued that the lack of time in marriage may be one of the greatest causes of loss of love, and subsequent divorce.

Of course, it's not the lack of time, per se, that causes divorce. It's that without time, it is impossible to meet the needs that keep a marriage healthy. Without time, the personal attention required to sustain love cannot be provided."

Is he open to making agreements with you? For example propose that the two of you spend at least 15 hours of quality time with each other each week before outside plans and activities will be considered. Dr. Harley describes the types of time that are most conducive to "growing" a marriage. Have you read any of the articles about the need for time together? The article above goes on to say:

"How much time? I suggest that you schedule 15 hours each week of undivided attention. At this moment, that may seem to be an overwhelming and impossible goal to achieve. But if it is, then meeting each other's emotional needs will also be overwhelming and impossible. That's about how much time it takes to meet the needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship, four of your most important needs. You met some of those when you dated and you fell in love with each other as a result. If your lifestyle prevents you from doing it now, your love for each other will eventually disappear, because you will not be able to meet each other's needs.

Two hours a day will just about do it. Or you can plan to be alone together one hour a day and make up the difference on the weekend. Assuming you have about 110 hours a week of productive time, it represents less than 15% of your total time to be spent doing what is most important in your life -- meeting each other's needs. It's about the time you would spend at a part-time job. "

What do you think?

TBP,

Sometimes I am hesitant to post to a thread if I am thinking negative things about a WS, so I do try to be careful.

Not that I am thinking negative things about your FWH. He does, though to some extent remind me of my FWH. After D-day, what neither of us realized was that he was very PA.

His way, throughout our entire relationship, both before and after marriage, was to deal with difficulties in our relationship by "dabbling" in infidelity.

Mind you, I had no idea until he had completely vaulted over the fence into a PA. Early on, it was only "little things" that he probably considered harmless like visiting singles dating sites on line, collecting phone numbers from women he met in bars while on business trips, and probably more stuff that I don't know about until this day.

He didn't consider these activities either harmful or a dangerous precursor to a full-blown affair.

Over the years, he got closer and closer to the fence until it took nothing very significant to take him over it. Of course, once he was in, well, he knew that he was in trouble. Even he couldn't tell himself that what he was doing wasn't wrong. Initially he told himself that he wasn't hurting anyone since I didn't know, but that didn't protect him from the guilt that became more and more oppressive for him over time.

So when I look at your FWH, I kind of sense that same attitude, like because he didn't actually sleep with an OW, that he is safe to continue some of the same dangerous behavior that led him into his EA.

Well, he can't. He needs to stay away from any situation where he may find himself tempted. If he finds one of his new female coworkers attractive, then he needs to distance himself from her as much as possible.

Makes one wonder, if they really knew the magnitude of the after affects of infidelity, would they still do it.

Unfortunately, I've seen all to often here, that sometimes even truly remorseful FWS sometimes relapse. It is what many of we BS fear most.

Please take care of yourself, because at this early stage of recovery, you can only really control your own actions.

Best,

Who

If you read further down in the article "The Boomerang Realtionship" http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm, you'll find information about how YOU can change the dynamic of the relationship, by working on your anger, and how you communicate.

I know it's not fair, but you may want to start making dates. If he has shown you that he will not do it. I know how frustrating that is, especially considering that your MC has told him that he needs to be doing this. You can also carve out some time to sit down and discuss what you wold like to do with your free time together, and get ideas from him.

Do what you can to move things along; make dates, take care of yourself (read the Goddess thread), fill his EN's as best you can, and be honest and open with him about your needs and your disappointment, without rage/anger.

WhoMe touched on the fact that you can only control what you do. This is sooo true, and such a kick in the pants to learn.

he was talking about something work-related. Since he recently started the job, I was asking him about his coworkers, their names and ages and, um, if they were attractive. He seemed uncomfortable. When I asked what was wrong, he told me that my questions did make him uncomfortable and that if I continued "backing him into a corner" each time he talked about work, he would probably start to shy away from telling me about work. He said he wasn't telling me that I couldn't ask him those types of questions but that he was just trying to be O&H about his feelings.


I actually agree with your husband on this one...
it's a question
set up for him to fail..

the answer is yes...
yes he works with attractive people...
I do
he does
she does
I also go to church with
grocery shop
attend meetings
and watch TV

all with some attractive people there...

what answers were avaiable to him


lie and say no..
and feel punished for saying no to something that everyone obviously answers yes to....

acknowledging that someone is attractive...both male and female does not automatically make an illicit attraction..

he told me that my questions did make him uncomfortable and that if I continued "backing him into a corner" each time he talked about work, he would probably start to shy away from telling me about work

I can also see what he is saying here..

he has started a new job..
new people
new experiences
new tasks
I assume etc..

you show interest and ask questions....

that's good...
but then you ask a daggered question

dayumed if he does
dayumed if he doesn't

Can he now question if you are truly interested in his new job...and experiences....or is he just completely under the microscope in all aspects...

which is not to say you should NOT watch for warning signs...and you have the right to carry in your back pocket a plan if this ever happens again..

BUT don't ask questions that do put him in the corner...
or recovery is futile....

from now on if he comes home and tries to tell you a story about suzy will you listen to him...and the story...or will you be ruminating..

is she one of the attractive ones
is she one of the attractive ones.

is that how he will feel
is that the reality
can you hear him....


the answer to your question no matter whom you ask is

YES

so did he stay over at he friends because he figured he's already in trouble and guilty and accused for being guilty of nothing...

so why the heck not really do something...

if he had protected you and said no I work with ugly horrible grotesque monsters...

would that answer have satisfied you...

what answer was acceptable to your question
and
what was the real value and reason for your question...

ARK

Thanks, graplin, for your response.

He's very open to making agreements with me but following through is another thing...

We had agreed a while back to do the best we could spending time together each week. We went through the HNHN cd's and were supposed to follow through...but it all got put on the back burner when this life-long dream promotion came along. Now that he got the job, he's got a bunch of time-consuming things he needs to do.

I'm going to talk to him about the 15 hrs a week thing again and show him the article you posted and see if we can recommit ourselves to spending more time together.

Thanks, Ark, for the response!



I can understand this, it's a question set up for him to fail. Glad you pointed that out to me, I don't think I was thinking of it that way.

I guess the point isn't really whether he's attracted to someone, since he has said both the W he was inappropriate with were not wildly attractive...

It's whether there's any "zings" going on, even mildly(borrowing from Mulan's flirting post)... I think FWH is at high-risk for this which he is in complete denial about.

I wish there was a way that he could reassure me routinely that he is doing everything he can to make sure he is keeping appropriate boundaries with women...but I know that's unreasonable. I guess that's what I'm really after.

It has come out that FWH had associated youth during his MLC with these two younger OW(both age 25) and that's part of where his attraction came from... I know he works with many 20-somethings now. That's where my paranoia and worry comes from.

I guess this is the part where Silent was telling me to work on myself comes in? Any other suggestions are welcome...

WhoMe,

I've been thinking a lot about your post and I read your post about your FWH on Patriot's thread.

I don't think my FWH takes the whole "extreme precaution" issue seriously. I think if I felt that from him, I would not worry so much.

I think he is in denial partly because honestly I don't think he wants to change the way that he interacts with women, because being social, engaging, friendly, talkative is such a big part of who he is... I have seen him flirt with a coworker (hugging, standing close while talking, getting their picture taken with their arms around each together) at a party before which even today is so hard for him to admit was inappropriate since he says he wasn't attracted to her.

I saw that you said Jennifer worked with you and your H on precautions. Did you say she helped your husband see how important it was to take extreme precautions? I wonder if we should work with the Harleys for a better recovery plan.

TBP,



My FWH is the same way, and frankly still can be as long as he isn't being charming and witty with any woman when I'm not standing right next to him.

We were so close to divorce over what really amounted to him trying to punish me because he was angry. He knows me better than anyone, yet he still did not understand that pushing that particular button with me was as big a mistake as his affair.

Yes, Jennifer was a tremendous help. I don't believe that we could have recovered without her help. She helped him understand the necessity for firm boundaries if we were going to be able to remain married.

Sh also helped me understand the importance of not reacting to things he did with angry outbursts.

You have a real gift here, stopping this right now before your FWH makes things worse by going the next step in the future.

I'm not discounting the magnitude of an EA. Frankly, the thought of my FWH sharing his hopes and dreams with the OW hurt me far more than the SF did. That part kind of just grossed me out more than hurting.

I highly recommend either the phone counseling or even attending a MB weekend because then the follow on counseling is a part of what you get by attending the weekend, I think.

Good luck.

Who