thanks for the childcare tips jayne. I guess it's not too much different that the single mom scenario ...

committed. No. Whether my daughter should read the messages. Personally, I think they're too disturbing for her to read at her age.

Pablo, I did want to comment on one little thing. You said that your wife was 10-11 when she was abused. That puts it in close proximity to your daughter's age right now. I also noticed that you said she told you about her molestation 10 years or so ago. I don't think it is coincedence that your oldest daughter was 10 or 11 at that point. It seems to establish a pattern that your wife has a resurgence of old trauma when she has a daughter the same age as she was when the abuse occured.

It might be helpful to remember that time as best you can to see if there might have been some troubles then, too. Even if they were apparently unrelated. It could help you understand your wife's current mindset a little better. I don't know this for sure, I am just guessing.

To offer my .02 cents on whether to let her read the messages...if it were me, I would pick 2-3 and show her. Enough to give her a clear picture, but not overwhelming her with several pages of perversions.

It will scare her, but she needs to be scared. Scared enough that if your WW showed up on the doorstep when you weren't there, that she would not go with her.

I am awed at how vigorous you have been in protecting your daughter, and she is fortunate to have you for a father. God is with you even in this, and will work out His will.

Talk it over with your counselor. I'm easily alarmed because when my sons were young, I had an RO on their alcoholic, drug addicted father.

One day when I was at work, he drove by the sitters house and picked them up from the fenced backyard. I was notified immediately that they were missing and notified the police. The sitter had just turned her back for a minute and they were gone. He kept them in a hotel room for two weeks, and then dropped them off at the sitters and left the state.

So my experience tells me that your daughter has a need to know exactly why the OM can't contact her, just in case you are at work and he or your wife show up. And I feel this especially since your daughter has lobbied for you to lift the RO.

Hang in there. Things have got to get better.

Pablo, I agree with you here, I think showing your D those msgs would be disturbing at best... and possibly a mixed signal at worst. What you can do is make sure she feels she could tell you ANYTHING. That nothing no one ever tells her could make her afraid to tell you. That there's nothing she could ever tell you that would make you not love her, and that there are no threats that would mean she couldn't tell you.

Like if someone says, let this be our little secret, others won't understand... or, if you tell your dad he will hate us both... or even, if you tell, I will harm you and/or your family, or you will be put in foster care, etc.... get the idea? Don't go into too much detail, just make sure that if the sitch ever comes up, she can think back to things you've said and realize that's what you meant.

Something else occurred to me... it sure would be great if some sort of sting operation could be done, like that tv show. There are people online, "volunteers", who pose as minors to flush out predators. Somehow or other it must be somewhat legal, b/c some police even work with them.

Here's the website for one group called Perverted Justice.
Here is an article about them.

Since he mentioned your D's Facebook account, I dunno, maybe you could create another account in her name, pose as her, maybe say "my dad is reading my other acct so I've created this one"... I think all it would take is messages planning a visit with obviously illegal intent. I followed a link at the top of the Perverted Justice webpage and it had a transcript of a chat with a perp and a volunteer, that led to a conviction. Reading through it will give you a good idea how to do it.

Maybe contact that group, Perverted Justice, or your PD, or a PI, see if this would be admissable?

I disagree that she shouldn't see any of the messages, but not enough to get in a big squabble about it. Here's why, Pablo, and then I'll leave it up to you without any further opinion from me. As bad as my adopted grandkids' biological parents have been to them, their love for their mom and dad is strong, painful, and a deep source of emotional conflict. You know this guy is a predator. You can tell that to your daughter, and because she believes and loves you, she might intellectually accept it as truth. But her emotions are still also tied to her mother, who would--if given the chance--tell an entirely different story, which your daughter's heart would long to, be drawn to believe. Knowledge is power, and while you may delay showing them now, if there is ever the slightest chance that her mother might be able to woo your daughter's mind with her own alternate version of reality, personal knowledge of what this man has said about her would (in my mind) be your daughter's best defense against being deceived, and against personal danger as well.

t&l, posting at her daughter's house instead of her own!

I agree with Neak. See my post above. Your daughter needs to know.

If you do show these messages to your daughter you might want to get some counseling for her because she will probably become very angry at her mother for staying with this pervert.

Chances are their relationship will be forever changed.

Neak, I may be wrong about that. I'm on the fence - scaring a child is worth it if it protects them. So I'm not sure I disagree with you... I posted before I read what you said, and that's the side of the fence I landed on.

I sort of think it may depend on the child, in which case an informed and caring parent may know best.

Their relationship is already damaged, even if the daughter doesn't know it. The damage was caused by the mother's actions, not by whether or not the daughter learns of them.

Pablo will have to decide where the best balance is for his DD, between fear and enough knowledge to be safe.

My opinion is also that, if the point comes where her mother is truly sorry and understands the monstrosity of what she has done, that she will be able to mend much of the damage to their relationship. Even if not, DD's safety outweighs all other considerations.

I don't even mind if you disagree which course of action is best. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For sure there are pluses and minuses to either one.

I would consult a lawyerat the minimum.

Not a lawyer but I think those emails are enough proof to go to the police or District Attorney to get a Restraining Order against the OM.

Do not let your children near him.

TheRoad - He has a restraining order, and his wife and OM are lving in another state.

I would not be telling the daughter at this stage.
At 13 she is at an age when it could not a lot of damage.

If you have a RO and the offender is on the other side of the country, I would sit on it until such a time that it had to be made known for her protection. Hopefully down the tract when she's a wee bit older. Even 6 months at this tender age makes a difference mentally coping with trauma.

If/when her mother returns and is remorseful, she will feel enormous guilt for her stupidity and I would hate to see permanent damage done to their relationship over this.

It certainly reads like this guy has sexual interest in your daughter but maybe he's just plain wacko, stupid and not seeing the bigger picture and how it reads to sane people.

Protect her at all costs...but be mindful also of how important the relationship is with her mother.

Yes. My suggestion was in hopes of getting this perp off the streets. Or at least registered.

Wow, I think you are way off base! A 13 year old is PLENTY old enough to know the truth about a predator who has chosen HER as his intended victim. I believe it would be practically a crime to not let her know what she is dealing with, so she can equip herself with whatever means of protection necessary. For all we know, she could be writing the guy emails from a friend's house, thinking he is her buddy. She needs the truth NOW!
Think of this..
What if Pablo were to be hit by a truck tomorrow, and no longer around to protect her. Who would be left to be her advocate?
BTW, If she finds out later that her dad would not give her the truth, she will have NOBODY to trust.

You can think I am way off base as much as you like. I'm only inerested in the facts, not thinking of the worst that could happen and reacting to that.

The facts are that this guy is a long way way and there is a RO in place. There is NO immediate threat to this child. if that changed I would be changing my opinion. Any communication is being monitored. In the current situation everything is being done to proptect this girl.

The whole thing could turn around tomorrow and her mother could see sense and come home very remoresful about what she has done and who she has exposed her child to. That is a far nore likely senario than the father being hit by a bus! So my position is, the child's relationship with her mother has precedence at this stage until it is proven she is in some immediate danger or her mother is never coming home again and is going to be permanently with this creep. Then drastic action needs to be taken.

Edited to ADD !! >>>>

I would also think at 13 this girl knows about predators in general and has come indication of what can and does happen and what her response would be.

She seems to have a vigilant father.

this post incorporated in above post as it was meant ...so some do not take it out of context <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

OMG <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Ladylayla (Ozdreamer),

A restraining order is only a piece of paper. OM can drive into town at any moment and just pick her up after school or somewhere indicating "your momma's sent me to get you, come on now, she's just down the road at the waffle house, she just wants a chat over some eggs...HOP IN".

13 year olds ARE NOT "in general" equipped to handle the cunning advances of experienced predators. Such young girls are invincible and a RO certainly isn't gonna stop OM if he's bent on doing it.

Pablo CAN'T protect her 24/7. FULL KNOWLEDGE and HONESTY about a danger/risk DIRECTLY effecting/affecting (whatever) HER life is the only solution, IMO, to enable DD to protect herself to the extent possible.

Maybe in 6 months or so...the situation WILL relax itself and she won't have to be as diligent about her own protection. Stuff like checking in, staying in groups, teaming up with some friends and making them aware there's a creepy guy that stalked her myspace or whatever and they should help her keep a look out.

Honesty is not damaging or a threat to her life and security....OM IS.

Mr. Wondering

Edited to add: I could see debating telling the 13 year child because it may be harmful or damaging to her. I like that Pable is discussing this matters directly with a counselor in real life (though 1 counselor shouldn't be the ulitimate authority to him and he should research this issue and get many opinions to decide what HE should do). However, to make telling her or not telling her about protecting the WW's relationship with her daughter is just insane. Really???? Am I on Candid Camera???? So your saying that "protecting the adulterer takes precedence", you did qualify it with "unless the danger is imminent" but how exactly will Pablo KNOW when such is the case????

Pablo's wife, if she wakes her butt up, repents, comes home and Pablo accepts her...she can and will, just as easily, restore her relationship with her daughter. Again, the damage HAS already been done by WW (and OM)....honesty is just filling 13 year old DD in with the facts about her life in the most age appropriate and protective manner possible. IMO, WW is completely irrelevant in that decision.