Stalwart, you sound like a very nice man who loves his wife, and I am concerned about your statement that you told your wife that if you break your promise again that she should divorce you. Please get some professional help. I fear that your promise comes from your deep fear that your wife will leave you and not from a true understanding of what porn adiction does to a relationship. Adictions of any kind are hard to break, and porn is very adictive and seductive. One only has to look at the money that the porn industry brings in to understand that you unfortunately are not alone. I fear that if you and your wife do not learn how to build a loving, understanding relationship you will soon be tempted to return to your adictive behavior and since you told your wife to divorce you, she will. You've got a lot riding on your ability to remain faithful to your promise, and it's going to be terribly hard to keep it. Please get help, even if your wife is not interested at this time.

Because it is adultery. It is a betrayl. And it feels like it to many. And if you don't feel that way, that's fine. But it IS adultery and I don't know if you're saying it isn't or you're saying that it doesn't FEEL like it to you. It's just that your post came across like you were saying that it isn't adultery and that you are surprised anyone could be devasted by it.

I am surprised that you are a woman. I misjudged because I usually hear that kind of stuff come from men. Very sorry men, but that's been my experience.

My H's porn use kept him from loving me the way a woman wants to be loved. I felt so lonely in our marriage. We couldn't bond, couldn't be intimate. He had a secret sex life and couldn't let me in. THAT life, was easier to him.

It was like having sex with a roomate, but different. We rarely had sex and when we did, he wasn't with me. I felt like a blow up doll, a masterbating tool. He says he never thought of other women when he was with me sexually, but I have a very hard time buying that. I never felt him with me. He was distant with blank eyes and it never felt like making love to me, only sex. I believe he prided himself more on technique, and didn't care about anything else. It made me feel UNDESIRABLE. I thought there was something terribly wrong with me because he didn't desire me.

He found the women in porn more attractive than me. And I could feel he wasn't attracted to me. Men do compare. And I didn't compare to them. I dressed in the closet for years because I felt so inferior.

And guess what? I never knew he had that secret sex life for 15 years. I knew he had a few "favorite" pictures on his computer, and it always disgusted me and made me feel horrible. I hated that he looked at those beautiful women and never complimented me or looked at me with such zeal. And you know what else? He didn't have any pictures of ME stored on that computer. At least none he would have liked to look at. He may have had a few family shots on there, but they certaintly weren't brought up to lust over.

And since he couldn't tell me about the porn, that was a secret and a lie he kept from me for years. That affected our intimacy. It helped us to grow more distant. He got what he needed from them. Even pictures for admiration. He told me once that when he looked at them, he pictured them desiring him. I desired my husband with all of my heart in the beginning and LOVED sex. With his porn use, conflict avoiding personality, and his other addictions, my life was he!! and very lonely.

Those are the same things people feel when their spouse in a an affair or has a one night stand. My H had hundreds of one night stands with many different young and beautiful women.

Mopey - thank you for clarifying. I am sorry for your pain and I truly do not discount it. I also do not discount the damage that seductive porn can do in a relationship and what it might lead to, such as real live affairs that are started with online EA, or men being arrested in a sting operation because they're trying to have sex with a minor. The secrets and lieing, as you so eloquently wrote about above, can tear a person and a relationship into a million little pieces. But some men view porn and still manage to keep a fairly good relationship with their wife and not become adicted. (Note - I did not say a good relationship.) Although there are women who will join their husbands while watching porn, there are a great many more who find it degrading, disgusting, perverted and competition for their husband's love.

My definition of adultery is simply different then yours, and if you look up adultery on Wikipedia you will see that the definition of adultery differs over time and within cultures. If you experienced your husband's actions as adultery, then that's what it was to you. But I don't think it is helpful to tell other men that come looking for advice here that when they view porn they are absolutely committing adultery. I do think it is helpful for them to read the kind of thing you just posted - about how it hurt you so badly and why you felt it was adultery in your marriage. The pain you still feel is palpable in the above post, and I feel that they need to understand that pain, not be condemned as adulterers. I feel it is up to them and their wife to decide if they have committed adultery within the framework of their own religious convictions and the promises they have made to each other.

And to answer your question - yes, I experienced what I define as adultery as being almost too painful to go on living. It was absolutely the worse pain in my life, and the pain I felt over my husband viewing porn pales in comparison. That was my subjective experience, and is just as valid as what other women may have experienced.

"But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
***************************************

It is interesting listening to different opinions about what constitutes adultery.
My issues w/ porn are not based on religion but my own personal feelings.
Personally, I don't get too upset w/ the fact that a husband or wife will look upon another and feel lustful....i don't think of that as adultery....however, the fact that the choose to dwell there and DECIDE to fantasize about being (sexually or romantically) w/ another does feel like adultery to me. I often hear people say......'well, it's better than actually having an affair"......and, I suppose in some ways that is true....they are not exposing their spouse to STDs etc....but, if the spouse is emotionally withdrawing from the relationship to fantasize about being w/ someone else....and especially if they are being particularly sneaky about it, it causes lots of problems in the marriage and it sure feels like adultery to me.

Hey all,

It doesn't matter whether it was pornography or an affair or drinking, I betrayed my own values and destroyed the trust my wife and I should share. I know she may never recover from the hurt. I vow to not use porn ever again. It won't matter if I am divorced or not; I will never change my mind. Rational Recovery taught me that much.

I don't know if my wife will ever forgive me. I owe a debt of care regardless. I really only hope that she can learn to see herself as the valuable, beautiful, good person that she is. I am no good for her. I love her and think she is beautiful, but I have FUBARed that whole thing. Now I really only hope that she can heal and move on so something or someone better.

I am hurting because of my own stupidity. I have no one to blame but myself. I realize that she would be better off if she never met me.

Stalwart,

Kudos to you for taking responsibility for your actions. I don't think it matters whether you label it as "infidelity" or not. All that matters is that you now recognize how damaging it has been, and are willing to make up for it. Please don't be too hard on yourself. It won't help. Feelings of worthlessness tend to feed addictions, not help you recover from them.

How can you win her back? Here are my thoughts:

--Do you understand WHY you became addicted to porn? Can you articulate it to her? If so, I think that would help.

--Why do you think your attempt to break the habit this time will be different from all the other times? Can you explain it to her. If so, I think that would help. (BTW, I don't think your grandiose exclamations that you will never do it again and never change your mind are helpful. I think the addict's mantra "one day at a time" is very wise. And believe it or not, makes me fell safer as the wife of a porn addict than "never again".)

--Do kind and loving things for her with no expectation of anything in return, especially sex.

--If/when you do have sex again, make sure you stay very focused on her, and tell her how beautiful and sexy you think she is. Don't pour it on too thick, just make sure to mention it.

--Take good care of yourself. Exercise, eat right, sleep, BREATH! Show her that you love and respect yourself enough to truly love and respect her.

Hope that helps.

SC

I don't really know the why of my behavour. I know I started using porn when I was 14 and now I am 44 and was still behaving childishly and selfishly.

I was involved in S.L.A.A. (a 12 step program) for years and helped to found two groups in my city and did outreach to the local mental health community. From that experience I can tell you that 12 steps is a poor form of treatment for me. I have had effective results from Rational Recovery. Rational Recovery makes no excuses and gets results.

I do not expect to get anything from my wife. I would not be surprised if our relationship is officially dead. I am not expecting sex or anything from her. Regardless I can provide what I can for her. I would just like to see her happy. I have tried to good and have SNAFUed my hopes and efforts. If she can move on and have a good life I will be satisified.

Stalwart - I am confused. The title of your first post included "how do I win my wife back". Now you write, "if she can move on and have a good life I will be satisfied". Are you afraid to hope that she might forgive you? Or does a part of you want her to leave?

I have no knowledge about Rational Recovery, so will not comment about it, but urge you again to seek professional help to help you through this difficult time. Perhaps some posters have specific suggestions about where to find affordable help. In the meanwhile, there is lots of helpful information on this website, and in particular, the information about the GIVER and TAKER in each of us might be helpful to you right now. Perhaps your TAKER has been operating in the past, and now you have swung to an unhealthy GIVER state. Balance is the key, and the article may help you. I hope you find peace soon.

Thanks truthskr,

I am starting to wonder if it is selfish of me to want my wife back. I have done enough damage and she should be free of it. If I were out of the picture then she could move on. I can't erase my mistakes and she will always have the scars. I don't see that forgive and forget will really work here. I am really feeling pretty lost. I saw a shrink today and feel worse. I have caused my wife enough hurt and if I were not around maybe it would be better for all concerned.

Stal, I can understand how you feel, HOWEVER, you are coming across to me as "victimish". Yes, you hurt your wife. She can and probably will forgive you if you're upholding your values and you're doing everything necessary to help her heal and doing right by her. And there's always the chance she may not forgive you. If you don't do these things, then yeah, she'll probably be better off without you. That'll be between her and God.

So, get off your soap box and continue to do the work that is necessary. Don't let her hear your defeatess attitude. Do not give up on your relationship until a possible divorce is final. Even then, if you really want your wife back, keep working to become the man she always deserved and maybe you two can try again later.

Don't "give her up" because you feel hopeless. Give her hope by continuing the fight the good fight. At least fight and give her a choice to come back to you. You give up now and you'll leave her no choice.

She needs a hero.

Thank you Mopey,

Any ideas on how to fight for her? I don't want to push myself on her.

Stal, I don't know what is in your wife's heart. I don't know what she needs. I am sorta in the same situation and I can tell you what I think she needs. But honestly, let her know you will do whatever she needs and lovingly ask her to think about it and let you know what her needs are.

For me, I would need to see you diligently getting help for your addiction.

I would need you in individual counseling and marriage counseling if she agrees.

I would need you to daily show me in some way that she is important to you. You could do this with e-mails, unless she asks you not to.

You can send her letters or notes, unless she asks you not to.

You can drop a flower off at her door everyday for a year, unless she asks you not to.

You can burn a cd with songs on it from your heart and give it to her.

You can ask her to come on this site and learn that you two can recover your marriage.

You can continue to be transparent to her everyday, by e-mail or whatever, unless she asks you not to.

You can be patient and wait for her to see your changes.

My best advice is to somehow, someway, let her know that you are caring about her hurts and needs everyday.

Use your imagination and do things to show her that you love her that will blow her mind. Get rid of any pride you have and do things she would never expect.

If she doesn't tell you to stop any of this, you're not pushing yourself on her. If she does, honor her choices and tell her you'll give her time. But let her know, you won't give up, and give her time.

Be patient, it won't happen overnight, but she needs to see you working on it everyday.

Thank you Mopey,

I do need another perspective since mine is rather bleak at present. I am planning on continuing with my counselling and I will suggest the HNHN book again.
Flowers can't hurt either.

Stalwart

Stal, I'm happy to help. I wish my H had the same attitude as you, so I'm willing to help you out.

A few words of caution and a little more advice.....

Regarding the flowers....don't do something like just order her flowers and hope that does the trick. She may be insulted that you think sending flowers will cure all. What I suggest is doing something that will blow her mind and see that you are serious about her. Leave a flower on her doorstep EVERYDAY. This is something that won't be easy and it'll show her that you REALLY do care.

On the HNHN book.....she might be a little upset to lift a finger at all since she's already stuck her neck out to you and all you did was ABUSE her trust. So, what I suggest is that you buy the book yourself, and leave it at her doorstep AFTER you blow her mind with your caring ways. If she sees you going out of your way, she might just "think about" reading that book. And if you keep it up, she will probably want to read the book.

She's probably in a ton of pain, confused, hurt, angry, etc. and probably totally stressed out. If there's anything you could do to make her life easier, do it. If she doesn't want you at the house, hire someone to help her with cleaning or the yard, or laundry, anything.

DO THINGS, don't talk, unless she's open to more apologies, and don't make promises just yet because you've broken those. The only thing you can promise her at this point is that you won't give up, but you have to have that mindset, and you CANNOT waiver.

Speaking from the other side of this, hoping my H would say and do the things you would be saying and doing. We are starting on the RR track right now...

What I would need from him? His addiction has taken a great deal of his time and attention, and probably after your trip down the recovery path it probably took even more. She probably feels like your addiction has been number one in your life and she has been a distant second or lower...

How can you show her she is a higher priority now? Talk won't cut it, that's what she's hung on to for years, you have to show her, and to show her, you have to beleive it.

Think of every actions you choose and the message it sends her, the family, and yourself. Are you giving her hte message with your action that you are thinking of her first?

Great insight about why you want her back, do you want her back because YOU want her back or because it is what is best for her? I think that is up to her...

Would it be the worst thing in the world for you to work out RR on your own for a month or two (or more?) and let her be to recover on her own? Your addiction has literally vampired the love out of your relationship, and now it is time for her to heal from this...can you help her with this? That is tough, are you feeling strong enough in your recovery that you can help her too?

As far as whether porn is infidelity or not, people can argue this, you can even try to convince her of your beliefs, but at the end of the day, the only person it matters to is her. If she feels betrayed by your behavior and thinks of it as infidelity, then it is...

What I would suggest, some practical actions you can take? Think of some of her complaints over the years...things that would have started with "I hate it when you..." Or "You don't ....enough." And work on those things...

Our R has been changing, but my kneejerk reaction to a positive behavior change on his part is anger...anger that he didn't make this change before and a reminder of how bad things were before...I eventually get over it, but don't take her inital reaction as a measurement of whether to keep a behavior or not...ask HER if she wants you to continue doing or not doing something...

I have been mapping out my battle plan. Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions.

The first priority for me is Racial Honesty and I will keep at that. My wife has all of my email and other computer access codes/passwords etc. and can check the history of my internet usage. I am just telling her everything I am thinking and talking about my 'affair' with porn.

The next priority is the EN of Affection.

I am in the process of mapping out daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, and yearly actions to give her affection. Hopefully I will be able to expand to more affection as this progresses. No hugging just yet. (she is more into the strangling phase right now)

Daily: Make tea for her in the morning.
Treats in her lunch bag. (one of her favourite brand of chololates or chewing gum)
Hold all doors open.

Weekly: A new flower arrangement for the dining room table.
She loves simple arrangements with exotic flowers.

Bi-Weekly: Clean the car inside and out. She really likes it when I power wash the floor mats.

I figure if I can book these as habits they will help give her the affection she deserves. These actions will let her know I love her, but they don't seem too pushy. She did ask about the flower and what it was. (Star of Bethlehem) and I picked her up at work and she was chewing gum! I know that sounds kind of lame that I was thrilled to see her chewing the gum I slipped into her lunch. I was still very happy that she accepted it.

Any other ideas?

Hey Stal,

I was just re-reading one of your post. You said you were wondering if it was selfish of you to want your wife back. I don't think it is at all, unless you take advantage of her trust again.

On this site you will find the tools to use in your marriage you probably never had before, like knowing about emotional needs. There's a questionnaire on this site that you can print off and try to find out what your wife's needs are. I don't remember if you guys are still living together or not, are you? She may not want to tell you what her needs are right now because she's afraid to let you back in. That's ok, you can "plan A" her. Guess her emotional needs and try to do those things. If she ever fills out the form itself, that will be the map to her heart and I'm willing to bet the farm, she'll fall in love with you again. But only if you're honest, consistent in her needs, caring for her, putting up boundaries with other women and porn. You can do this Stal. It's sounds like you've been reading some. I'm thrilled!



She can learn to forgive you with patience, care and time. I've learned that you need to decide what your values are. List them, and then decide how you plan to protect those values, and share this with your wife when you can. If you haven't already, you could look up Harley's article on the "4 rules of protection". It sounds like you've already been reading up on radical honesty and may I say, THAT will BE the most IMPORTANT thing you do going forward. No matter how hard it is, tell her the truth, even if you slip in the future. And don't make her wonder. Keep her updated on your progress so she'll feel safe without feeling like she has to bring it up. Those things will go a long way and earning your wife's trust back. If you're consistently seeking a healthier life and do the necessary work to recover you and your marriage, you'll make you're wife feel safe, fall in love with you and then after care and time, the memories and hurt will fade.

I'd listen to StillHereMakingIt Stal. That's good advice.

That is just so totally awesome. I am green with envy.....lol......Her chewing that gum made me smile. And you got her a flower too! Yay! I loved your ideas.


Side note...my H was pretty cool tonight too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />




Howza bout picking up the book "How can I forgive you" by Janis & Spring. It's excellent. After you read it, write her some apology letters. After you two can talk openly and intimately again, that book will show you how to respond to the hurt she is feeling. My H read it and I loved him for it.

Also, never make any more promises you can't keep, on anything, especially with her.

It sure sounds like you're off to a great start and the reason I say that is because of the radical honesty. This is what will take time and patience, for her. You have abused your wife's trust and it'll take awhile before she'll be able to believe a lot of things. That's why you also need to SHOW her like you were talking about in that awesome battle plan. Talk doesn't mean anything to her anymore. Actions always speak louder than words.

Continue to work on yourself and share with her what you've learned when she'll let you. This will be a marathon, not a sprint.

Seeing your willingness to learn and do, I think you guys have a chance. Just be patient and diligent.

And remember, becoming a better man is not just for her, it's for you too.

Once your wife feels like reinvesting again, if you're consistent, she'll want to give back to you too.

Just some thoughts I picked up while going through this myself and learning about it.....

Could the early porn use have been a coping mechanism for you? I think it has to do with learning how to express emotions. There's a lot of people who have trouble handling different emotions, especially difficult ones like conflict, well and they use different ways of coping or escaping.

Have you had other addictions? Any other forms of escape?

Were you afraid of opening up to your wife? Were you ever afraid for her to see the "real" you, causing problems with intimacy?

If so, maybe it would be good to start thinking hard about these things. People cannot go through life avoiding things with escape. You're not really living. Not fully.