Hello,

I'm writing because, I have been the a cheating spouse for the past year. And she needs some real support, wisdom, and unbasis (sp.) knowledge.

My wife caught me the first time when she found a private email I was using. From that email, She found out that I had been having sex with 2 different women, and still contacting a person that she forbidded me to talk to.

On the second time, she found out that I had contact with one of the previous women, and was now having an emotional affair with new one. She confronted me about it and I lied to her face, only to have the proof of the phone bill threw at me.

I've lied and lied and lied, not only to her, but mainly to myself. I've beg her back a dozens times and she has come back every time, but I dont think so this time. I have really mess things up, and worst of all, all this while we were experiencing our first child.

What else makes it so bad is this time around, she had been doing everything I could ask for, she initiated sex, she did the recreational companionship, and everything. I didn't have sex with anyone, but I repeated talked to females behind my wifes back and hide them from her. I had females friends that she knew nothing of, and she even told me that I couldnt handle that, and I laughed inside saying whatever I'm not going to have sex with anyone else again, I know how to "behave". That should have never happened! What I realized later ( that she had been telling me all along) is that from the beginning I've always had an arrogant attitude. I thought when she took me back that I could easily continue my friendship, and not have sex and nothing be wrong, but the problem is that, that how the first affairs started. But I wanted to have sex with them because I wasnt getting any from home. Which was not my wifes fault, it just pained her to have sex in certain ways, as well as, to have sex with someone that didnt put her first in his life. This last time, i broke my wifes heart. This last situation was so stupid. I started this last relationship with a young girl who had a girlfriend. Mainly, cause I thought we wont do anything sexual because she has a partner, and she is a lesbian. Little did I really realize that this didnt matter. I was still hiding things again. I mean how dumb could I really be. I'm beating myself up for this cause I know I losing the best 2 gifts that has ever been giving to me.

As of today, only a week from the last d-day sort of speak, I have a new attitude that I'm no greater than the next man, I know that I cant handle myself in relationships with the opposite sex appropriately. I was talking to women after 9pm, and calling them repeattedly throughout the day at work when I couldnt speak to my wife. I just made myself believe that since I wasnt having sex with them, I wasnt in the wrong, Of course however, if my wife had been doing what I was doing, I still would have been furious.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm aware that my wife came back to me those other times with a new attitude, and her new behavior followed. Everytime I came back I acted differently (stopped doing somethings) but my attitude or thought process was the same. "I can do whatever as long as I'm not having sex." "She doesnt know what she is talking about, I'm fine, I can control myself with other women, they just have to be ones I'm not attracted to". I told myself all these things, but what really made the difference is I failed to connect and have a positive attitude with my spouse like I did on the phone with other women.

The reason, I'm writing you is because my wife is now on this board at Marriage Builders saying that we are finally finished, and feels like she needs to leave me to have a better life. Well, I really get it this time. I understand what I wasnt doing right, I know my attitude dictated my behavior, and I want another chance. I hadn't been the same person she married, the new job, getting laid-off, the new job again, the new house, all these things, distracted my from really caring about my wife, I find it easier to listen to other women's troubles that I wasnt causing, than to fix the ones at home that I had created.

She has only gotten one positive response, one response from a newbie who "seems" ( I dont really know) think that b/c of our situation she should just give up.

I havent always been the spritually leader I should have been but even I know the bible clearly says she has every right to leave me because of the infidelity, and she feels she can since she can't trust me right now. but I also know what Romans 5:20 says, and my interpetertation (sp.) is that we all will sin, but Christ has given us grace. So, my wife and I need grace from you. Whether you continue to tell her to leave me, or do as I hope and talk with her, and understand her emotions, her feels and everything as I have somewhat laid out for you, and somehow help her find a way to give me one last shot, I would greatly appreciate it.

Our families didnt want us to get married from the get go so talking to them is them telling each other that we are better off seperated. Also, obviously, I havent included every single detail from the previous year. But getting her to talk about it, will help on your decision, so that its not coming from me. I dont want to make you think I'm giving you a great impression that I was a decent guy, but no means was I, i did my wife very wrong and for that, she can leave me and deserves better. I lied to her more times than I can count, and pretended to be someone else when I was in a PA. Since that time I've wanted to be better, but my attitude towards female friends never, ever changed, and if it had, I wouldn't have lead myself down this road again. I just know I can be a better husband and father than I have been in the past year. I so badly need another chance to be a family again. I do think I dont deserve another one, but I also know I can do things better this final time around.

I know someone can relate to my wife better than who has replied.

Her screen name is

Hurting_at_23

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2036648#Post2036648

She has posted in Divorcing.


With me writing I know I may get hounded, but I want my wife back...

TooMany,

Okay, let's take this from the top. I'm not going to hit you with a 2 X 4, but just with the way it is. Do not quit posting just because you get the hard facts. What I have to say is not going to be easy to hear, but you need to hear it.

I will say this because you need to understand where your wife is in her heart and mind.


I have not read her posts. I don't need to. I understand her, because I have been in her heart and mind. My husband betrayed me, three times in our marriage. We have been married 33 years. The most recent time was in 2005, and before that was waay back around 1980 or so.

Here goes.


Your wife thinks that it's a too late and a dollar short for you to finally figure out that you have completely disrespected her and your marriage and child. She's angry that she has told you for years that she hates it when you talk to other women, and that you hurt her when you do it.

She hurt for many years, cried, and begged for you to stop it. You ignored her pain, and told her she was jealous, b*c*ty, and worried about "nothing". And all the while, you knew exactly what you were doing, and why you were doing it. You wanted sex with other women, you found the thrill of the chase exciting, ego-stroking, and it made you feel like a desirable and sexy man to be out there charming the ladies. You ignored your wife's pleas because it was more important to you to get what YOU wanted, and it did not matter how much it hurt her or your marriage.

She also feels that if you had spent ONE HALF of the time thinking about her that you spent on the wh*res, then your marriage would not be in the ditch.

She feels like you checked out of the marriage a long time ago, and paid lip-service to what you said you would do to change your ways. This last affair was "it" for her.

Now, she feels like walking away because the remorse you say you have now is very similar to what you have said you had the time before, and before that, and before that. She's heard it all before, TooManyLies.

She wants to have a relationship with someone she can trust to go to work and not call other women. That is NOT too much to ask, and she has asked you repeatedly for that.

You ignored her requests.


So, what makes this time different?

I will tell you. It's different because SHE is walking away, and you KNOW it is different - for HER.

She has given up on you as a person. She has come to the understanding that perhaps she misplaced her trust in you.

That while she may love you, she cannot trust that you will protect her or her child, you will not provide a stable home, and you will NOT PROTECT HER MARRIAGE.

Because so far, you have only protected your own interests and filling your own needs - and you did it OUTSIDE of the marriage, repeatedly.

Now, with that heavy of a 2 X 4 hitting you, let's move ahead.

Can you save the marriage?

Believe it or not, I think you can.


Call the Harleys. The marriage could be saved, but YOU will need to do nearly ALL of the work. YOUR TURN, sir.

Fill out the emotional needs questionnaire. Ask your wife to do one. If she won't do one, you fill one out for her and do your best at figuring out which EN's are her highest.

Take the time to figure out what you did right and wrong in filling HER needs. You've been very good at being a taker. Now, try to be a giver. You are going to be needing to practice at this, and it won't be easy for you.

Do what you say you are going to do, and stop making empty promises. Actions speak louder than words. Don't just tell her, "I'm going to go to church" or "I'm going to fix that" - just do it. SHOW her through your actions that you are changing.

Call HER when you are needy or lonely.

Change your emails and cellphone numbers, and do not give them to any more women. Give your wife the passwords so she can check up on your usage at any time she wants.

Keep yourself clean of other women. Just because your wife thinks about divorce does not give you permission to run around on her. If you want to save this marriage, keep your words and heart for your wife, and keep your clothes on except with your wife (get my drift?). Do not even go to lunch with another woman. You DO NOT HAVE ANY FEMALE FRIENDS AT ALL, PERIOD.

Send a letter of no-contact to both of the women you slept with, and the one you had an EA with. Give the copies to your wife, so she knows you did this. Honor the no-contact.

And whether or not your wife goes to counseling with you

GO TO COUNSELING.

Because if you do not end up saving this marriage, you will drag your mess into your next relationship, and screw that one up as well if you don't figure out what you did wrong, and why you keep doing it over and over - and fix it now.

Get to work.

And I'm only being so hard on you because I think you really do want to save your marriage, and it is worth telling you straight up. No holds barred, because you better act fast.

Schoolbus

Oh, and I lied. I said I wouldn't hit you with a 2 X 4 and then I did.

Oh well.
My bad.


One more thing:

NEVER LIE TO HER AGAIN.

That is just dumb, and you know it. So stop.

SB

Well said Schoolbus! Toomanylies, LISTEN!!!!!! Schoolbus knows!

WH2LE

TooManyTimes - why do you feel you are entitled to "grace" from us? I'm going to say some "tough love" sorts of things that you can really hear and take to heart, or you can reject them for whatever reasons suit you and your marriage WILL end.

You USE the Scriptures as it suits you, that is what I "hear" from things like you posted in the above quotation.

Is your wife a believer? Without your having said anything about it, I think she must be to have "put up" with you and your lack of humble obedience to the Lord.

So if you really want "one last and FINAL shot" at saving your marriage and building the sort of marriage that brings honor and glory to God, it is PAST time that you "got serious" about your professed sin.

You want to "lean on God's grace," but you don't want to DO what He tells you to do. In short, you want to abuse your "Christian liberty" anytime you feel like it.

Now, if you truly want to learn how to be the man God wants you to be, and the husband God wants you to be (either with your current wife or with someone else should she decide to divorce you), I and others will try to help you.

But right now what I am hearing is NOT "sincere repentance" from you, and I suspect your wife is not hearing that either. What I am hearing is "I'm sorry I got caught, again, and I'm afraid that this time I WILL lose my wife who I've been taking totally for granted." You are focused on "ME." Until you change, really change, that focus, nothing you do will matter. God WILL ALLOW you to "self-destruct" if that is what it takes to really reach you, just like in the story of the Prodigal Son.

And it would do you good, as a place to start, to open your Bible and read and meditate on the story of the Prodigal Son. Take a close look at "doing things my way" and what true, sincere, repentance and humbleness of spirit looks like when there are no excuses for your behavior.

So, what ARE you doing to do with your relationship with God?

If you don't address that issue, the issue with your wife is a moot point.

God bless.

After reading your post and your BW's post there is no way I could encourage her to stay. I'm not saying that your M can't be saved, just saying some M shouldn't be. Your post is very telling. Not sure you will be able to do the hard work neccessary to save it.

You have sooooo much to learn. There are so many changes you need to make. I suggest that you let her do as she needs. In the meantime you start working on you. There is much to do.

If at a later date you have grown to become a man who deserves a second chance, then maybe you could approach her for a date. Otherwise learn to be a great father. Your child will still need you in their life.

Your "pleading" post here to help your wife is really just a dressed up attempt to manipulate the people here to get what YOU want. Your focus is still all about YOU.

Until your focus is totally on your BW, your marriage is hopeless.

Why did you not come here and share YOUR story and ask what YOU need to be doing to help your wife heal from the many betrayals and abuses she has withstood at the hand of the one who should have loved, honored, respected, protected, and cared for her?

I know why...

Because you are still all about you. YOU want a second chance. YOU want your marraige. YOU don't want to be alone... blah, blah, blah. We've seen it over and over. There is nothing special about you. You are a very typical wayward. And you STILL have the wayward mindset. That is clear.

So, do you want to know HOW TO HELP YOUR BW HEAL from the devastation you have caused....whether she reconciles with you or not? Are you willing to do whatever it takes to HELP HER...regardless of what you get out of your new efforts?

If so, THEN we have a starting place.

If you want your soul to heal and her soul to heal, you need to do the right things, not to win her back but to give her what she needs to heal.

That means if she files for divorce, you don't contest it. You don't hang her out to dry. You give her every THING she asks for because you never could give her the one thing she wanted - YOU - and YOUR HEART, unfettered by lies and other women.

It was you and only you she wanted. You withheld that from her. Why? Get to the bottom of WHY you didn't want to bond with the mother of your child? The woman you vowed to honor, and cherish, with no others before you - you promised this before God and witnesses. Why couldn't you do it?

Call Steve Harley. Do everything he says - heart, mind, body and soul.

IF you truly are of the heart to change, there's another man here, who's wife was in a similar situation with a chronic cheater, who changed his ways only when it was over for his wife. You can see what he did to set things right again. Sexymamabear and TST.

EXACTLY!!!!!

You want?
You don't get it. It's not about what you want.
What does your marriage want and need to survive?
What are you actively doing to make that happen?

TMT,

You have gotten some excellent advice here. Don't run away because it was hard to read. You have wounded your poor wife in the worst way possible.

The pain of a betrayed spouse is worse than being raped, worse that the death of a child. SO imagine how that must feel for your wife and try to look at it from her perspective, you did it again.

As far a she can see, and what she sees is based on YOUR ACTIONS, not your words, you knew that you were hurting her and YOU DIDN'T CARE, because what you wanted was more important.

If you are serious about this, you had better be ready for a LONG,LONG and very difficult road. And during this journey, you are going to have to put your BW best interest and needs far above your own.

SO, Do you think you can do that, and stick with it?

Who

First, why the heck are you posting out here and then asking people to reply to your wife? She's not the problem; YOU are. She's not the one here who needs to change (you even admit that) - it is you. Why aren't you asking for help for yourself? Honestly, it just comes across as one big manipulation tactic to get your wife to re-engage in the status quo while you do little to no self-work or meaningful change.

I have a suggestion of a book for you. It isn't a Harley book. It doesn't apply to all men. I will tell you, though, that it surely and definitely applies to you - "It is (mostly) His Fault" by marriage therapist Mark Alter.

http://www.amazon.com/Its-Mostly-His-Fault-Women/dp/0446577774

Get a copy. Read it. Memorize it. Make it part of yourself and your actions. Note: Do NOT ask your wife to read it. This isn't about her, so stop changing the subject to her. This is about YOU.


I find the title of this thread most interesting. You've lied too many times, huh? Can you please tell me the number of lies that are acceptable, then? What consitutes "too much", and what constitutes "acceptable"? Exactly what amount of lies is ok?

You have utterly destroyed your own credibility. You have earned her distrust. She doesn't trust you because you are not trustworthy. Own that. She SHOULDN'T trust you.

Now, I have absolutely zero idea as to why you are quoting the Bible and referencing religion in your post. You certainly didn't when you were lying. You didn't when you were cheating. Seems to me that it was all irrelevant to you then, so why is it relevant now? Why use Biblical scripture and spirituality only when it helps you (asking for grace), but not when it prevents you from harming others?


This last time? Just the last time? Are you really that easily able to justify and shield yourself from the responsibility and consequences of your actions? You've broken your wife's heart every single time you've done anything remotely similar to this. Every last lie was an individual instance of you breaking your wife's heart. Every last conversation - any interaction, actually - with another woman (in the emotional and physical affair sense) was an individual instance of you breaking your wife's heart.

Let me put it plainly - you prioritized your relationships with these women above your relationship with your wife. You willingly harmed your marriage in order to have these relationships. You put your desire to contact these women above your wife's feelings. You then told numerous lies in a manipulative attempt to prevent your wife from seeing the damage you were doing, and keep her in a situation to which she wouldn't knowingly agree.

You are caught up in this justification of whether or not you had sex, as if that has much relevance at all. Let me be plain - it doesn't. You repeatedly and deliberately let other people inside the private sphere that should include only you and your wife. Period.

Personally, I don't think your wife should leave you. I think YOU should be removed from the home, and start to work on fixing yourself. If and when you make long-term, meaningful, and lasting changes, you can then approach her and see if she's willing to try with you again.


Really? Then where are you? Are you seeking help to change yourself? Why have you posted only once? Why aren't you asking people to respond to you rather than to her? Have you picked up the phone and scheduled a session with Steve? Have you scheduled a session with another marriage counselor? What about an individual therapist, or someone to help you overcome sex addiction? Why did you lie? Why did you have these relationships?

It seems to me that your actions are in direct conflict with your stated goal.

What you are doing right now seems, even to me, to be more manipulation and lip service than anything substantial. It really looks like you are asking the MB community to help manipulate your wife some more.

KaylaAndy,

Just wanted to clarify that tst was not a chronic cheater. There was only 1 affair. Unfortunately, there were many lies to push me away, which included the very damaging lie that he had multiple affairs.


But, TMT, KA is right. There are former WS's right here at MB that know what is necessary to help their BS's heal; and they have done it. There are many marriages here that have been rebuilt into something beautiful after an affair(s). My FWS, tst, did anything and everything I asked (and a lot I didn't even ask) of him because he was so remorseful and wanted to help me heal.

The most important actions he took to help me and our marriage was:

1. be totally open and honest about EVERYTHING
2. be completely willing to do whatever it takes to help me
3. to call the Harley's

I hope you will stay here and continue posting and seek help for your marriage. If you will do what it takes, it is not hopeless.

There is hope, but the first thing this guy needs to do is accept personal responsibility and stop minimizing and justifying what he has done. He isn't even close to acheiving that yet.

Too many...

Just one question...how would you advise your precious daughter 20 years from now if she were in the same position as your wife?

2ML:

Great JOB!

You chased your wife away from a potenial support system as well!

Man, you are firing on all cylinders!

If you BOTH stay here, you got a shot at saving this M.

Your both in your early 20's. LOTS of growing up still to do.

Think about that.

But you have destroyed the fertile field that that future could have come from.

What are you going to do to fix that field?

LG

Well, its seems that everyone has their own judgement of me, their own thoughts, which I was totally prepared for. The first post by SchoolBus really had the most useful information in it then any other. It was colds facts that I have to commit to doing. It seemed like to me others enjoyed the fact that that had the ability to finally looked down on someone, who they really felt ITHO didn't deserve another chance. I'm fully aware of what I did wrong, nor anyway did I try to lessen it, or down play it. Anyway, I'll try to answer these questions to the best of my ability, without writing another book...

FOREVERHERS:
Why do I feel entitled to grace from you all?
I never said I was entitled to anything. I asked for. If you chose not to give it, that your decision. I understand that your saying my relationship with God is key, regardless of Divorce or Recon.

So, what ARE you doing to do with your relationship with God?
I plan to make that my first relationship that I rebuild. I lied so much before that I was really ashamed to even called myself a child of God. I didnt pray with my wife or lead anything, mainly because of everything I was doing in secret. If I only had a real relationship from the start things could have been different.

SEXYMAMABEAR
You said that I was manipulating you all for my wants.

Well, I plainly said that I wanted her back. And that I didnt think I deserved another chance. I wanted to engage people that had spouses that have done multiple PA or EA, to comment to my wife on their decision to stay or go. Not, just someone whos spouse cheated on they one time and they divorce immediately. And why... b/c I want my wife back, but I also wanted her to speak to someone that can relate to this usually situation I put her in. Not many of you have FWS that have done to this maginatude what I have done. So it hard for you to imagine any recourse. Its like asking someone whoms spouse has never cheated on them, to comment on what they would do or feel like, if their spouse cheated... they cant give an honest answer, only an opinion. I expected for other FWS to contact me and give me advice on what I should now focus on and what to do. If you've be the mulitply BS, I figured you go help my wife, not throw punches at me.

KAYLAANDY
I appreciate your comments.

mkeverydaycnt
No comment

MicheleG
You are right, I will still need to be a great Dad

ba109
What does your marriage want and need to survive?
The first thing it needs is for both parties, to agree they want to make it work. Lets see, if I wanted to be with another woman, it'd be definitely over right?
What are you actively doing to make that happen?
I've just been reading as much as possible on this site, the bible, and praying for healing for her among other things. I couldn't find the NC letter. If someone could helpful... Most of all, I'm really not going to say alot. Thats really where you guys were suppose to come in. I just plan to do the things I should have done from the PA. During this time if she does change her mind, great for us, if not, I'll be on my way to workng on myself. Somethings that need to be done regardless if we make it our not.

WhoMe
SO, Do you think you can do that, and stick with it?
As far a she can see, and what she sees is based on YOUR ACTIONS, not your words, you knew that you were hurting her and YOU DIDN'T CARE, because what you wanted was more important.
Well, I know I can, and I definitely have the information in front of me to do it and know what I should do. I mean, I've said what I should do out of my mouth before. There is no other means for me to let anyone on this site know what I really think or feel other than through my words. I really do think differently, and have a deeper understanding, of how my attitude played its part. I dont know any other way to explain my remorse for everything. Maybe another FWS can go into detail as to how they felt when they were really remorseful, and it changed the way they thought.

I know its going to be hard for me, but so is staying with me (from her perspective), especially after 2 PA and a EA, and the lies that I created around them.

Takola*
I dont even know where to start with your post, it was very helpful, and if some of things you suggest my wife feel need to be done, then so be it.

sexymamabear
That was what I was also expecting, that other FWS would give advice, and encouragement. So the last time he came home, what had he done, or was doing, that made you take him, back...? What was his process? How do you know he has admitted everything, or what gives you the feeling, it couldn't of just been his words.. right?

Takola*

I plainly said in the email... I'm not down playing anything that I had done. I also, didnt justify it, I even said, after the PA, even though I was saying I'm done, I already had my attitude set for another affair.

Soolee

Great question... I couldn't make the decision for her obviously, but would make sure I got her all the help she needed to make a decision she could not only live with (b/c my wife can make it fine with me or without). Hopefully by then I make enought to send her and her husband on a MB's seminar. And again support her decision either way. I could look at it as a father, and as a FWS, so I think by then, I'd have a good bit of knowledge to share.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I do want to comment on you having multiple affairs and not knowing anyone HERE who has gone thru this.

I have. Over three years, my husband had 2 PA's and one EA (that I know of, could be more EA's). We are currently separating AGAIN, and I am ready for divorce. I did Plan A, Plan B, false recoveries, one after another.

My advise to you, just shut up, listen and begin SHOWING your wife that you are worthy, REGARDLESS of whether she is on board or not. If YOU want this marriage, it should not be conditional on whether SHE wants it or not.

You messed it all up, you clean it up. Simple as that. I'm sure that we can help both you and your BW to find your way, but first thing is first. You jump off that diving board without knowing whether there is water in that pool; stop asking your wife to do it. YOU fill up that pool, and THEN ask her to dive.

No excuses, not explanations, no more. Just do it.

If your wife STILL chooses to divorce you, so be it, but you will KNOW that you did all that you could to save your marriage. At this point, you start your Plan A. You start making changes that will help you become a better, smarter, more loving man.

If you aren't willing to jump in and start the heavy lifting to bring this back from the brink, I wouldn't advise your wife to take one step back toward you. It will be a miracle if you can get her to turn back around and look at you, and you should be ever so grateful if she does.

Sort of a rant, but I mean every word. NO EXPECTATIONS FROM YOUR WIFE! GET TO WORK.

You say you know what to do, so do it.

I usually avoid these threads because typically the poster is just as described by so many of the respondees. They get some advice that they don't really want to hear and then disappear.

Schoolbus gave you the best advice. Here's the best piece of it: Schedule and appointment with the Harleys. Today. Consult with them, get a plan, stick to it. Come back and tell us that you have done that, and then you will get taken more seriously.

This is a VERY hard thing to do.. but it's SO right.

Some things about no expectations...

Having no expectations is a protection mechanism for yourself. If you have no expectations, there is nothing to be disappointed about when it doesn't happen.

Having no expectations helps you not to put your qualities and feelings onto the other person. Allowing them to have their own qualities and feelings when they need to have them, and not being let down (there it is again) when their reactions don't measure up to what you thought.

NO EXPECTATIONS IS IMPORTANT!!

and.. MAKE THE PHONE CALL... trust these people, they know what they are talking about.