Hello,

I'm writing because, I have been the a cheating spouse for the past year. And she needs some real support, wisdom, and unbasis (sp.) knowledge.

My wife caught me the first time when she found a private email I was using. From that email, She found out that I had been having sex with 2 different women, and still contacting a person that she forbidded me to talk to.

On the second time, she found out that I had contact with one of the previous women, and was now having an emotional affair with new one. She confronted me about it and I lied to her face, only to have the proof of the phone bill threw at me.

I've lied and lied and lied, not only to her, but mainly to myself. I've beg her back a dozens times and she has come back every time, but I dont think so this time. I have really mess things up, and worst of all, all this while we were experiencing our first child.

What else makes it so bad is this time around, she had been doing everything I could ask for, she initiated sex, she did the recreational companionship, and everything. I didn't have sex with anyone, but I repeated talked to females behind my wifes back and hide them from her. I had females friends that she knew nothing of, and she even told me that I couldnt handle that, and I laughed inside saying whatever I'm not going to have sex with anyone else again, I know how to "behave". That should have never happened! What I realized later ( that she had been telling me all along) is that from the beginning I've always had an arrogant attitude. I thought when she took me back that I could easily continue my friendship, and not have sex and nothing be wrong, but the problem is that, that how the first affairs started. But I wanted to have sex with them because I wasnt getting any from home. Which was not my wifes fault, it just pained her to have sex in certain ways, as well as, to have sex with someone that didnt put her first in his life. This last time, i broke my wifes heart. This last situation was so stupid. I started this last relationship with a young girl who had a girlfriend. Mainly, cause I thought we wont do anything sexual because she has a partner, and she is a lesbian. Little did I really realize that this didnt matter. I was still hiding things again. I mean how dumb could I really be. I'm beating myself up for this cause I know I losing the best 2 gifts that has ever been giving to me.

As of today, only a week from the last d-day sort of speak, I have a new attitude that I'm no greater than the next man, I know that I cant handle myself in relationships with the opposite sex appropriately. I was talking to women after 9pm, and calling them repeattedly throughout the day at work when I couldnt speak to my wife. I just made myself believe that since I wasnt having sex with them, I wasnt in the wrong, Of course however, if my wife had been doing what I was doing, I still would have been furious.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm aware that my wife came back to me those other times with a new attitude, and her new behavior followed. Everytime I came back I acted differently (stopped doing somethings) but my attitude or thought process was the same. "I can do whatever as long as I'm not having sex." "She doesnt know what she is talking about, I'm fine, I can control myself with other women, they just have to be ones I'm not attracted to". I told myself all these things, but what really made the difference is I failed to connect and have a positive attitude with my spouse like I did on the phone with other women.

The reason, I'm writing you is because my wife is now on this board at Marriage Builders saying that we are finally finished, and feels like she needs to leave me to have a better life. Well, I really get it this time. I understand what I wasnt doing right, I know my attitude dictated my behavior, and I want another chance. I hadn't been the same person she married, the new job, getting laid-off, the new job again, the new house, all these things, distracted my from really caring about my wife, I find it easier to listen to other women's troubles that I wasnt causing, than to fix the ones at home that I had created.

She has only gotten one positive response, one response from a newbie who "seems" ( I dont really know) think that b/c of our situation she should just give up.

I havent always been the spritually leader I should have been but even I know the bible clearly says she has every right to leave me because of the infidelity, and she feels she can since she can't trust me right now. but I also know what Romans 5:20 says, and my interpetertation (sp.) is that we all will sin, but Christ has given us grace. So, my wife and I need grace from you. Whether you continue to tell her to leave me, or do as I hope and talk with her, and understand her emotions, her feels and everything as I have somewhat laid out for you, and somehow help her find a way to give me one last shot, I would greatly appreciate it.

Our families didnt want us to get married from the get go so talking to them is them telling each other that we are better off seperated. Also, obviously, I havent included every single detail from the previous year. But getting her to talk about it, will help on your decision, so that its not coming from me. I dont want to make you think I'm giving you a great impression that I was a decent guy, but no means was I, i did my wife very wrong and for that, she can leave me and deserves better. I lied to her more times than I can count, and pretended to be someone else when I was in a PA. Since that time I've wanted to be better, but my attitude towards female friends never, ever changed, and if it had, I wouldn't have lead myself down this road again. I just know I can be a better husband and father than I have been in the past year. I so badly need another chance to be a family again. I do think I dont deserve another one, but I also know I can do things better this final time around.

I know someone can relate to my wife better than who has replied.

Her screen name is

Hurting_at_23

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2036648#Post2036648

She has posted in Divorcing.


With me writing I know I may get hounded, but I want my wife back...

TooMany,

Okay, let's take this from the top. I'm not going to hit you with a 2 X 4, but just with the way it is. Do not quit posting just because you get the hard facts. What I have to say is not going to be easy to hear, but you need to hear it.

I will say this because you need to understand where your wife is in her heart and mind.


I have not read her posts. I don't need to. I understand her, because I have been in her heart and mind. My husband betrayed me, three times in our marriage. We have been married 33 years. The most recent time was in 2005, and before that was waay back around 1980 or so.

Here goes.


Your wife thinks that it's a too late and a dollar short for you to finally figure out that you have completely disrespected her and your marriage and child. She's angry that she has told you for years that she hates it when you talk to other women, and that you hurt her when you do it.

She hurt for many years, cried, and begged for you to stop it. You ignored her pain, and told her she was jealous, b*c*ty, and worried about "nothing". And all the while, you knew exactly what you were doing, and why you were doing it. You wanted sex with other women, you found the thrill of the chase exciting, ego-stroking, and it made you feel like a desirable and sexy man to be out there charming the ladies. You ignored your wife's pleas because it was more important to you to get what YOU wanted, and it did not matter how much it hurt her or your marriage.

She also feels that if you had spent ONE HALF of the time thinking about her that you spent on the wh*res, then your marriage would not be in the ditch.

She feels like you checked out of the marriage a long time ago, and paid lip-service to what you said you would do to change your ways. This last affair was "it" for her.

Now, she feels like walking away because the remorse you say you have now is very similar to what you have said you had the time before, and before that, and before that. She's heard it all before, TooManyLies.

She wants to have a relationship with someone she can trust to go to work and not call other women. That is NOT too much to ask, and she has asked you repeatedly for that.

You ignored her requests.


So, what makes this time different?

I will tell you. It's different because SHE is walking away, and you KNOW it is different - for HER.

She has given up on you as a person. She has come to the understanding that perhaps she misplaced her trust in you.

That while she may love you, she cannot trust that you will protect her or her child, you will not provide a stable home, and you will NOT PROTECT HER MARRIAGE.

Because so far, you have only protected your own interests and filling your own needs - and you did it OUTSIDE of the marriage, repeatedly.

Now, with that heavy of a 2 X 4 hitting you, let's move ahead.

Can you save the marriage?

Believe it or not, I think you can.


Call the Harleys. The marriage could be saved, but YOU will need to do nearly ALL of the work. YOUR TURN, sir.

Fill out the emotional needs questionnaire. Ask your wife to do one. If she won't do one, you fill one out for her and do your best at figuring out which EN's are her highest.

Take the time to figure out what you did right and wrong in filling HER needs. You've been very good at being a taker. Now, try to be a giver. You are going to be needing to practice at this, and it won't be easy for you.

Do what you say you are going to do, and stop making empty promises. Actions speak louder than words. Don't just tell her, "I'm going to go to church" or "I'm going to fix that" - just do it. SHOW her through your actions that you are changing.

Call HER when you are needy or lonely.

Change your emails and cellphone numbers, and do not give them to any more women. Give your wife the passwords so she can check up on your usage at any time she wants.

Keep yourself clean of other women. Just because your wife thinks about divorce does not give you permission to run around on her. If you want to save this marriage, keep your words and heart for your wife, and keep your clothes on except with your wife (get my drift?). Do not even go to lunch with another woman. You DO NOT HAVE ANY FEMALE FRIENDS AT ALL, PERIOD.

Send a letter of no-contact to both of the women you slept with, and the one you had an EA with. Give the copies to your wife, so she knows you did this. Honor the no-contact.

And whether or not your wife goes to counseling with you

GO TO COUNSELING.

Because if you do not end up saving this marriage, you will drag your mess into your next relationship, and screw that one up as well if you don't figure out what you did wrong, and why you keep doing it over and over - and fix it now.

Get to work.

And I'm only being so hard on you because I think you really do want to save your marriage, and it is worth telling you straight up. No holds barred, because you better act fast.

Schoolbus

Oh, and I lied. I said I wouldn't hit you with a 2 X 4 and then I did.

Oh well.
My bad.


One more thing:

NEVER LIE TO HER AGAIN.

That is just dumb, and you know it. So stop.

SB

Well said Schoolbus! Toomanylies, LISTEN!!!!!! Schoolbus knows!

WH2LE

TooManyTimes - why do you feel you are entitled to "grace" from us? I'm going to say some "tough love" sorts of things that you can really hear and take to heart, or you can reject them for whatever reasons suit you and your marriage WILL end.

You USE the Scriptures as it suits you, that is what I "hear" from things like you posted in the above quotation.

Is your wife a believer? Without your having said anything about it, I think she must be to have "put up" with you and your lack of humble obedience to the Lord.

So if you really want "one last and FINAL shot" at saving your marriage and building the sort of marriage that brings honor and glory to God, it is PAST time that you "got serious" about your professed sin.

You want to "lean on God's grace," but you don't want to DO what He tells you to do. In short, you want to abuse your "Christian liberty" anytime you feel like it.

Now, if you truly want to learn how to be the man God wants you to be, and the husband God wants you to be (either with your current wife or with someone else should she decide to divorce you), I and others will try to help you.

But right now what I am hearing is NOT "sincere repentance" from you, and I suspect your wife is not hearing that either. What I am hearing is "I'm sorry I got caught, again, and I'm afraid that this time I WILL lose my wife who I've been taking totally for granted." You are focused on "ME." Until you change, really change, that focus, nothing you do will matter. God WILL ALLOW you to "self-destruct" if that is what it takes to really reach you, just like in the story of the Prodigal Son.

And it would do you good, as a place to start, to open your Bible and read and meditate on the story of the Prodigal Son. Take a close look at "doing things my way" and what true, sincere, repentance and humbleness of spirit looks like when there are no excuses for your behavior.

So, what ARE you doing to do with your relationship with God?

If you don't address that issue, the issue with your wife is a moot point.

God bless.

After reading your post and your BW's post there is no way I could encourage her to stay. I'm not saying that your M can't be saved, just saying some M shouldn't be. Your post is very telling. Not sure you will be able to do the hard work neccessary to save it.

You have sooooo much to learn. There are so many changes you need to make. I suggest that you let her do as she needs. In the meantime you start working on you. There is much to do.

If at a later date you have grown to become a man who deserves a second chance, then maybe you could approach her for a date. Otherwise learn to be a great father. Your child will still need you in their life.

Your "pleading" post here to help your wife is really just a dressed up attempt to manipulate the people here to get what YOU want. Your focus is still all about YOU.

Until your focus is totally on your BW, your marriage is hopeless.

Why did you not come here and share YOUR story and ask what YOU need to be doing to help your wife heal from the many betrayals and abuses she has withstood at the hand of the one who should have loved, honored, respected, protected, and cared for her?

I know why...

Because you are still all about you. YOU want a second chance. YOU want your marraige. YOU don't want to be alone... blah, blah, blah. We've seen it over and over. There is nothing special about you. You are a very typical wayward. And you STILL have the wayward mindset. That is clear.

So, do you want to know HOW TO HELP YOUR BW HEAL from the devastation you have caused....whether she reconciles with you or not? Are you willing to do whatever it takes to HELP HER...regardless of what you get out of your new efforts?

If so, THEN we have a starting place.

If you want your soul to heal and her soul to heal, you need to do the right things, not to win her back but to give her what she needs to heal.

That means if she files for divorce, you don't contest it. You don't hang her out to dry. You give her every THING she asks for because you never could give her the one thing she wanted - YOU - and YOUR HEART, unfettered by lies and other women.

It was you and only you she wanted. You withheld that from her. Why? Get to the bottom of WHY you didn't want to bond with the mother of your child? The woman you vowed to honor, and cherish, with no others before you - you promised this before God and witnesses. Why couldn't you do it?

Call Steve Harley. Do everything he says - heart, mind, body and soul.

IF you truly are of the heart to change, there's another man here, who's wife was in a similar situation with a chronic cheater, who changed his ways only when it was over for his wife. You can see what he did to set things right again. Sexymamabear and TST.

EXACTLY!!!!!

You want?
You don't get it. It's not about what you want.
What does your marriage want and need to survive?
What are you actively doing to make that happen?

TMT,

You have gotten some excellent advice here. Don't run away because it was hard to read. You have wounded your poor wife in the worst way possible.

The pain of a betrayed spouse is worse than being raped, worse that the death of a child. SO imagine how that must feel for your wife and try to look at it from her perspective, you did it again.

As far a she can see, and what she sees is based on YOUR ACTIONS, not your words, you knew that you were hurting her and YOU DIDN'T CARE, because what you wanted was more important.

If you are serious about this, you had better be ready for a LONG,LONG and very difficult road. And during this journey, you are going to have to put your BW best interest and needs far above your own.

SO, Do you think you can do that, and stick with it?

Who

First, why the heck are you posting out here and then asking people to reply to your wife? She's not the problem; YOU are. She's not the one here who needs to change (you even admit that) - it is you. Why aren't you asking for help for yourself? Honestly, it just comes across as one big manipulation tactic to get your wife to re-engage in the status quo while you do little to no self-work or meaningful change.

I have a suggestion of a book for you. It isn't a Harley book. It doesn't apply to all men. I will tell you, though, that it surely and definitely applies to you - "It is (mostly) His Fault" by marriage therapist Mark Alter.

http://www.amazon.com/Its-Mostly-His-Fault-Women/dp/0446577774

Get a copy. Read it. Memorize it. Make it part of yourself and your actions. Note: Do NOT ask your wife to read it. This isn't about her, so stop changing the subject to her. This is about YOU.


I find the title of this thread most interesting. You've lied too many times, huh? Can you please tell me the number of lies that are acceptable, then? What consitutes "too much", and what constitutes "acceptable"? Exactly what amount of lies is ok?

You have utterly destroyed your own credibility. You have earned her distrust. She doesn't trust you because you are not trustworthy. Own that. She SHOULDN'T trust you.

Now, I have absolutely zero idea as to why you are quoting the Bible and referencing religion in your post. You certainly didn't when you were lying. You didn't when you were cheating. Seems to me that it was all irrelevant to you then, so why is it relevant now? Why use Biblical scripture and spirituality only when it helps you (asking for grace), but not when it prevents you from harming others?


This last time? Just the last time? Are you really that easily able to justify and shield yourself from the responsibility and consequences of your actions? You've broken your wife's heart every single time you've done anything remotely similar to this. Every last lie was an individual instance of you breaking your wife's heart. Every last conversation - any interaction, actually - with another woman (in the emotional and physical affair sense) was an individual instance of you breaking your wife's heart.

Let me put it plainly - you prioritized your relationships with these women above your relationship with your wife. You willingly harmed your marriage in order to have these relationships. You put your desire to contact these women above your wife's feelings. You then told numerous lies in a manipulative attempt to prevent your wife from seeing the damage you were doing, and keep her in a situation to which she wouldn't knowingly agree.

You are caught up in this justification of whether or not you had sex, as if that has much relevance at all. Let me be plain - it doesn't. You repeatedly and deliberately let other people inside the private sphere that should include only you and your wife. Period.

Personally, I don't think your wife should leave you. I think YOU should be removed from the home, and start to work on fixing yourself. If and when you make long-term, meaningful, and lasting changes, you can then approach her and see if she's willing to try with you again.


Really? Then where are you? Are you seeking help to change yourself? Why have you posted only once? Why aren't you asking people to respond to you rather than to her? Have you picked up the phone and scheduled a session with Steve? Have you scheduled a session with another marriage counselor? What about an individual therapist, or someone to help you overcome sex addiction? Why did you lie? Why did you have these relationships?

It seems to me that your actions are in direct conflict with your stated goal.

What you are doing right now seems, even to me, to be more manipulation and lip service than anything substantial. It really looks like you are asking the MB community to help manipulate your wife some more.

KaylaAndy,

Just wanted to clarify that tst was not a chronic cheater. There was only 1 affair. Unfortunately, there were many lies to push me away, which included the very damaging lie that he had multiple affairs.


But, TMT, KA is right. There are former WS's right here at MB that know what is necessary to help their BS's heal; and they have done it. There are many marriages here that have been rebuilt into something beautiful after an affair(s). My FWS, tst, did anything and everything I asked (and a lot I didn't even ask) of him because he was so remorseful and wanted to help me heal.

The most important actions he took to help me and our marriage was:

1. be totally open and honest about EVERYTHING
2. be completely willing to do whatever it takes to help me
3. to call the Harley's

I hope you will stay here and continue posting and seek help for your marriage. If you will do what it takes, it is not hopeless.

There is hope, but the first thing this guy needs to do is accept personal responsibility and stop minimizing and justifying what he has done. He isn't even close to acheiving that yet.

Too many...

Just one question...how would you advise your precious daughter 20 years from now if she were in the same position as your wife?

2ML:

Great JOB!

You chased your wife away from a potenial support system as well!

Man, you are firing on all cylinders!

If you BOTH stay here, you got a shot at saving this M.

Your both in your early 20's. LOTS of growing up still to do.

Think about that.

But you have destroyed the fertile field that that future could have come from.

What are you going to do to fix that field?

LG

Well, its seems that everyone has their own judgement of me, their own thoughts, which I was totally prepared for. The first post by SchoolBus really had the most useful information in it then any other. It was colds facts that I have to commit to doing. It seemed like to me others enjoyed the fact that that had the ability to finally looked down on someone, who they really felt ITHO didn't deserve another chance. I'm fully aware of what I did wrong, nor anyway did I try to lessen it, or down play it. Anyway, I'll try to answer these questions to the best of my ability, without writing another book...

FOREVERHERS:
Why do I feel entitled to grace from you all?
I never said I was entitled to anything. I asked for. If you chose not to give it, that your decision. I understand that your saying my relationship with God is key, regardless of Divorce or Recon.

So, what ARE you doing to do with your relationship with God?
I plan to make that my first relationship that I rebuild. I lied so much before that I was really ashamed to even called myself a child of God. I didnt pray with my wife or lead anything, mainly because of everything I was doing in secret. If I only had a real relationship from the start things could have been different.

SEXYMAMABEAR
You said that I was manipulating you all for my wants.

Well, I plainly said that I wanted her back. And that I didnt think I deserved another chance. I wanted to engage people that had spouses that have done multiple PA or EA, to comment to my wife on their decision to stay or go. Not, just someone whos spouse cheated on they one time and they divorce immediately. And why... b/c I want my wife back, but I also wanted her to speak to someone that can relate to this usually situation I put her in. Not many of you have FWS that have done to this maginatude what I have done. So it hard for you to imagine any recourse. Its like asking someone whoms spouse has never cheated on them, to comment on what they would do or feel like, if their spouse cheated... they cant give an honest answer, only an opinion. I expected for other FWS to contact me and give me advice on what I should now focus on and what to do. If you've be the mulitply BS, I figured you go help my wife, not throw punches at me.

KAYLAANDY
I appreciate your comments.

mkeverydaycnt
No comment

MicheleG
You are right, I will still need to be a great Dad

ba109
What does your marriage want and need to survive?
The first thing it needs is for both parties, to agree they want to make it work. Lets see, if I wanted to be with another woman, it'd be definitely over right?
What are you actively doing to make that happen?
I've just been reading as much as possible on this site, the bible, and praying for healing for her among other things. I couldn't find the NC letter. If someone could helpful... Most of all, I'm really not going to say alot. Thats really where you guys were suppose to come in. I just plan to do the things I should have done from the PA. During this time if she does change her mind, great for us, if not, I'll be on my way to workng on myself. Somethings that need to be done regardless if we make it our not.

WhoMe
SO, Do you think you can do that, and stick with it?
As far a she can see, and what she sees is based on YOUR ACTIONS, not your words, you knew that you were hurting her and YOU DIDN'T CARE, because what you wanted was more important.
Well, I know I can, and I definitely have the information in front of me to do it and know what I should do. I mean, I've said what I should do out of my mouth before. There is no other means for me to let anyone on this site know what I really think or feel other than through my words. I really do think differently, and have a deeper understanding, of how my attitude played its part. I dont know any other way to explain my remorse for everything. Maybe another FWS can go into detail as to how they felt when they were really remorseful, and it changed the way they thought.

I know its going to be hard for me, but so is staying with me (from her perspective), especially after 2 PA and a EA, and the lies that I created around them.

Takola*
I dont even know where to start with your post, it was very helpful, and if some of things you suggest my wife feel need to be done, then so be it.

sexymamabear
That was what I was also expecting, that other FWS would give advice, and encouragement. So the last time he came home, what had he done, or was doing, that made you take him, back...? What was his process? How do you know he has admitted everything, or what gives you the feeling, it couldn't of just been his words.. right?

Takola*

I plainly said in the email... I'm not down playing anything that I had done. I also, didnt justify it, I even said, after the PA, even though I was saying I'm done, I already had my attitude set for another affair.

Soolee

Great question... I couldn't make the decision for her obviously, but would make sure I got her all the help she needed to make a decision she could not only live with (b/c my wife can make it fine with me or without). Hopefully by then I make enought to send her and her husband on a MB's seminar. And again support her decision either way. I could look at it as a father, and as a FWS, so I think by then, I'd have a good bit of knowledge to share.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I do want to comment on you having multiple affairs and not knowing anyone HERE who has gone thru this.

I have. Over three years, my husband had 2 PA's and one EA (that I know of, could be more EA's). We are currently separating AGAIN, and I am ready for divorce. I did Plan A, Plan B, false recoveries, one after another.

My advise to you, just shut up, listen and begin SHOWING your wife that you are worthy, REGARDLESS of whether she is on board or not. If YOU want this marriage, it should not be conditional on whether SHE wants it or not.

You messed it all up, you clean it up. Simple as that. I'm sure that we can help both you and your BW to find your way, but first thing is first. You jump off that diving board without knowing whether there is water in that pool; stop asking your wife to do it. YOU fill up that pool, and THEN ask her to dive.

No excuses, not explanations, no more. Just do it.

If your wife STILL chooses to divorce you, so be it, but you will KNOW that you did all that you could to save your marriage. At this point, you start your Plan A. You start making changes that will help you become a better, smarter, more loving man.

If you aren't willing to jump in and start the heavy lifting to bring this back from the brink, I wouldn't advise your wife to take one step back toward you. It will be a miracle if you can get her to turn back around and look at you, and you should be ever so grateful if she does.

Sort of a rant, but I mean every word. NO EXPECTATIONS FROM YOUR WIFE! GET TO WORK.

You say you know what to do, so do it.

I usually avoid these threads because typically the poster is just as described by so many of the respondees. They get some advice that they don't really want to hear and then disappear.

Schoolbus gave you the best advice. Here's the best piece of it: Schedule and appointment with the Harleys. Today. Consult with them, get a plan, stick to it. Come back and tell us that you have done that, and then you will get taken more seriously.

This is a VERY hard thing to do.. but it's SO right.

Some things about no expectations...

Having no expectations is a protection mechanism for yourself. If you have no expectations, there is nothing to be disappointed about when it doesn't happen.

Having no expectations helps you not to put your qualities and feelings onto the other person. Allowing them to have their own qualities and feelings when they need to have them, and not being let down (there it is again) when their reactions don't measure up to what you thought.

NO EXPECTATIONS IS IMPORTANT!!

and.. MAKE THE PHONE CALL... trust these people, they know what they are talking about.

Incredible post, SL. tst and I both thought your swimming pool analogy was right on!

TMT,

Just one question:

Are you willing to do whatever it takes to help your wife heal?

If so, then I will share with you what actions and attitudes made the difference for me.

But all of that is irrelevent if you aren't willing to do whatever it takes. My FWS did things that only a truly repentant, remorseful FWS would do.

We know your wife's pain intimately; we know her sorrow; her grief; her agony; her devastation. And you have done this to her more than once. So we would be aiding you in abusing your wife if you are not truly repentant and ready to take all necessary actions. We are NOT going to do that to your wife.

What are you willing to do?

Complete and total honesty about everything.
Make an appointment with the Harley's.
Agree to give her full custody of the children if she decides to divorce.
Take a polygraph.
Sign a post-nup agreement.
Be totally transparent by providing cellphone records, credit card records, appointment calendar, etc.
Protect your wife by not allowing other women to meet any ENs (no lunches, no female friends, no flirty conversations, etc)


These are just a few things you could start doing immediately to demonstrate your willingness to protect your wife and help her heal.

sexymamabear and tst,

It just popped into my head. It's really how I felt every time I attempted to recover my M with PWC. I jumped into that pool FIRST, and CRACK
split my head open--all alone in there, with no ladder to get out. It hurt more and more each time. Pile on top of that the continued affairs--it hurts a great deal when I think about how much pain I've been exposed to. It's going to take a looooong time to get over it. I would rather this BW not suffer the same slings and arrows, for they can be AVOIDED, just by waiting for the WH to start the marathon.

I take responsibility for choosing to try, certainly. I made some mistakes in there, that had I held out longer and been more adamant about the changes PWC needed to have, already in place, before I even dipped my foot in the pool, I probably wouldn't have suffered nearly as much. I would probably still be divorceing, but would have avoided all that added grief in between.

TMT, it's all on you, man.

TooManyTimes - I will restrict my response to what you wrote to me and let others respond to what you said to them.

You are not entitled to grace from me or from anyone else but God. No one is "entitled" to grace. What you might want to think about is "mercy" and "forgiveness." Forgiveness for the truly, sincerely, repentant, will be given. Mercy is a different matter entirely and you don't need mercy from us, you need it from your wife. SHE is going to need a lot from you if she should choose to give it to you because you have, to date and over the years, proven that you cannot be trusted to be true to your marriage vows. So if you want to have any chance at winning her back you are going to have to serious about marriage for the rest of your life, no matter how many problems there may or may not be in the future.



Like most things, TMT, that was a choice you made. I guess the question really is how real you really think God is?

That may be a starting point for you.

TMT,




This is your subject line. Let's start there.

You are absolutely right. YOU are a WS.

And you are absolutely right. YOU HAVE lied too many times.

What turned me off to posting to you at the beginning was your last two words..."it seems". Either you have, or you haven't. There is no "it seems". Pretty big indicator that you are still in a wayward mindset, not yet willing to fully acknowledge your choices and own your stuff.

OK, NOW THAT'S OUT OF THE WAY.

You are going to have to understand that you may not get your marriage back. You have forever lost what you've had. Are you willing, with this in mind, to give her everything she needs????

This is the bare bones basic question. Without an answer to this, nobody here can help you.

You said you wanted your marriage, but you have yet to say that you want to help your wife heal. Those are two very different things.

TMT,

If you want help here...no one, not even Dr. H can direct you better right now than TST. He has been down your road and has changed 100%. I would seek out his advice (as well as calling the Harley's) and PAY ATTENTION. This is a man that has EARNED the F for "former." If you listen to him, do everything you can for your wife, grow up and pray...you may just have a small chance at recovering your marriage.

Words from you are meaningless at this point. You will be judged by your actions...and that is how it should be.

MEDC

Isn't that the problem?

You DO want other women...

and it IS heading in the direction of being definitely over.

Words from you are meaningless at this point. You will be judged by your actions...and that is how it should be.

I could not agree more.
I am a BS who's now exh had multiple affairs. You want to know how I feel? I do believe now he also had several EAs before anything turned into a PA. Each time I found out I lost another part of ME. Each time I would go on the computer and see he had found some anonymous woman in a game chat room or something to discuss OUR marriage problems with (or what HE felt was wrong)I died a little more. Then there was the ONS, i was physically ill. After that it was all down hill. There was another with one of my kids school mate's mothers. Then the screwing around he did in Texas at military training where I got the hotel charges on the debit card for. The women he went home with from the local bar. The times he just didn't come home at all. And this last one, where he broke up someone else's marriage! He is still with that ow.

Each time, I lost more of myself. My self esteem was in the toilet by the end. I didn't care about anything anymore. Each time he got caught he promised to behave himself. Each time he did not. It was wayyy too easy for him to cheat! I finally threw him out. And he has the nerve to be mad at me that I did! Every chance I gave, he ruined. It has been 3 years now, and I made the right choice. My life could not be better without him. I deserve better than that and so does your wife. Good Lord, you two are so young and you are doing this already? How can she possibly trust that you will NEVER do this again? I wouldn't to be honest. I have been there done that and have the tshirt.

Actions will speak way louder than words and if I were her, I'd be making you prove those actions from different living quarters. I'd not want you anywhere near me. Like SL said, don't talk, don't justify, nothing. Just do. IF she is smart, she will not take you back for at least 6 months or a year of continued progress on your part. Get into counseling to see why you did this. And to make sure it doesn't happen again. And she will need it too. On her own. Do you see that you have probably just sucked the life right out of her doing this over and over again? I will never understand why people don't just leave a marriage instead of cheat. I would have had a lot more respect for my exh if he had done that. When and IF she does take you back, you will need to be an open book. No more secrets, no more lies. Period. Ever.

Being that it is so early on in the marriage, if I were giving her advice, I'd tell her to cut her losses. From my experience with a serial cheater, I sure wish I had cut mine sooner.

I really don't know if your marriage can be saved or if it should. If you are willing to do whatever it takes for your WIFE than maybe. And if you can, I hope you thank your lucky stars because in my opinion, a serial cheater doesn't deserve being in the marriage.

You asked for input from someone who has been through this with a spouse. There is my 2 cents.

Take it for what it is worth.

mlhb

2ML,

You've had a few days to digest the reactions from other people.

I gave you the cold hard truth. So did the others. Each from our own perspectives.

To sum up the posts so far, you have the following assignments:

1. Call Dr. Harley (or another pro-marriage coach/counselor) and get YOURSELF on track for figuring out what YOU need to do

2. Examine YOUR OWN behavior in the marriage. You need to really focus here and figure out what you have contributed and failed to contribute to this marriage and relationship. Both are important, 2ML. When it comes to supporting a marriage and destroying a marriage, your ability to understand your own strengths and weaknesses within that relationship is important. I'd like to assign you the task of posting here the top five things YOU have done WRONG in this marriage, and the top five things you did right. Let's see what you think, and see if you can give yourself some real insight on that. It should be easy at this point, don't you think? (We shall see.)

3. You need to change your behavior from thinking of yourself and what you want, to thinking of the needs of your wife and child FIRST. The behavior of a true husband and father begins first with "What do my wife and child need/want?", not with "What makes ME happy?". You will find that if you pose this question first to yourself EACH and EVERY time a decision is made, your marriage and life will be stronger and happier. A magical potion, because somehow it will make YOU happy when your family and marriage is strong and happy.

4. You need to figure out why the activity of pursuing women for the purpose of sex is so gratifying for you. I would submit to you that you do not really have true emotional ties to them, and that you should deeply explore that hypothesis within yourself. Then, I would ask you what it is about the pursuit and conquest of a woman that gratifies you or makes you feel somehow strengthened; then take it a step further and find something else in your life that would make you feel truly strong and pursue it instead. This is the tough one, and will take counseling. So get yourself into counseling, 2ML. I think you have a void to fill, and this runs deeper than you have given much thought to.

5. As far as reading goes, I am very glad you are doing this. I'm also glad you are looking at your spiritual side, and renewing your interest in your faith. Go to church. Invite your wife, but don't go as a "show". Go because you need to fill your void and because your search leads you there.

6. Act each and every day as though you are a married man. You ARE a married man. Remember that. NO OTHER WOMEN IN YOUR LIFE.

7. Begin doing the things your wife has asked you to do this whole time. You remember those things - she begged you to do them. She "nagged" you - remember? And you blew her off? Do them. Because they were right and she was right. And because they need to be done.

8. Visit your family, and do it the way your wife has requested you to do it. Give her the money in the way she has asked. Do not argue with her about it, just do it. Be generous, and be proud to support your family.

9. Go to your pastor and ask him how to be a man. Tell him you have forgotten this, or maybe never learned how. I am saying this with all the respect in the world, because you are young and I do believe that too many guys your age have just lost out on some of the things that "men" need to know. The schools and society have wussified things to the point where younger guys can just plain get lost out there. Get lessons, and the pastor will know exactly what you need. Do it. It might sound dumb here in writing, but give some thought to this at least.

10. Stop making excuses. You did what you did because it felt good, and you wanted adventure, sex, fun, and to hang out with other women. That's it. You wanted what you wanted, and when you wanted it, and you didn't want the responsibility of marriage, kids, the wife, that "scene"....but at the same time you did....sort of....I get where you were in your head. You wanted it all, but you really didn't want any of it at the same time. There is no excuse for what you did to your wife. You were selfish. You are still being selfish. Stop. Focus on her, what you did to hurt her, and what you need to do to fix it.

11. Act now. You have to DO something to earn credibility. You can read stuff, post stuff, think stuff, but that won't cut it. She (and we) will begin to see progress when you have made appointments, gone to church, paid the bills without complaining or bragging about it, visited the pastor, visited your wife/family, confessed to your parents without excuses, and started doing the things that need to be done in your life in an active manner. Act now.


Schoolbus

Thanks SchoolBus. I appreciate all your advice.

TMT,
Was that a yes, or a no???

TMT,

I'm not being a smarta$$ here. I am serious.

Are you willing to do whatever it takes to help your BW heal?

If not, please allow her to pursue divorce uncontested and give her everything she needs to move on. That is THE LEAST that you owe her.

If you are willing to do whatever it takes, then say so, so that we can begin to help you understand what your wife needs.

Yes, everyone, I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I know alot of people here think I'm just lying again, but its true. I've heard the steps, and everything. Honestly though, I'm just scared I've run her off into the arms of someone else. If that is the case, its my own fault of course. I just want to try to fix things, its going to be hard enough trying to win her back, but even harder with her with someone else, or hardest divorced.

I find it very hard to continue to write up here, b/c no one can really know what I feel, think or am doing. I can tell you all anything and everything, and with that, it could still mean nothing and I still get "alot IMHOs".

Tst, if you would be willing, I'd like to speak with you privately. I know I need alot of work. And as much as I think Steve is probably worth it, we can no where near afford his services. One conversation is a car payment, and I need someone ongoing, and personal.

I thank everyone that has given positive 2x4 and step-by-step support.

TMT, if you think what you've received here is "tough," you have no clue what attempting to recover your marriage is going to be like.

If your answer to "when the going gets tough" is to run away and hide and try to suck someone into being your personal, unpaid, counselor, that won't work.

If money is the problem, have you thought at all about counseling with a trained counselor who has counseling as one of his ministries through his church? That is often provided at no cost.

Anyway, if you can't avail yourself of all the free resources here on this system and the free advice of others here because it's getting too tough for you, it's not likely that you will be able to recover your marriage.

That "running away" has been the problem all along, hasn't it?

Might that be a "starting point" in affecting real change in the way you approach things, including your marriage?

No, I'm not running from help, I dont want to continue to talk to people who tell me I cant do something. Anything is possible. I just need/ want positive hard nose encouragement. You can call it tough love, but somethings didnt seem as though they were said out of love, but their opinion of how bad a person I am. As far as how hard this road can go, I have the slightest idea, where it will take me, I'm just trying gather tools to be prepared to take it. I just dont want to feel people (who are sincerely here to help me overcome my issues) sticking their leg out to trip along the way.

well, as far as my post to you goes, you asked about bs's who had dealt with a serial cheater. i was one of those and i told you the cold hard truth of what it was like and what i went through. was the reality of that too much for you? because i guarantee what i wrote is what your poor wife is going through.

mlhb

TMT - people here are not going to tell you "can't" do something, with the emphasis on "you." People here are going to tell you that YOU NEED to make permanent and lasting changes in yourself, and that includes your relationship and walk with God.





This is true for God, but not for mankind. There are things that are "beyond your control." And it does seem that "control" is what you are thinking about much more than contrition and humbleness, of leaning on God and what HE knows is best for you and for your wife.

Even with all the changes in yourself that you might make, your wife does NOT have to continue to be married to you. Now, consider this, people here (who don't know you) are reacting to what you have written because they have "seen and heard it" many times before. Having the experience of the realities of infidelity, you can't fool them or expect them to hold your hand and tell you lies such as "it WILL be alright."

What they will tell you is what you NEED to hear IF you want a SHOT at giving your wife a reason to not "throw in the towel" and let you "sink or swim" on your own, by yourself, hoping you DO finally become a new person whose life IS directed by God and not glands.




TMT, people here ARE going to "stick their leg out and trip you along the way." Why? Two reasons. First, some are not themselves far enough along in their own recovery of their own marital devastation to control their anger enough to not "overly empathize" with you or your wife. Second, because those who ARE far enough along in their own recovery recognize all the "bull" that a Wayward Spouse can spout and they WILL "call you on it" every time, usually with little empathy, because the time for your acceptance of lies and falsehoods and destructive choices is OVER....IF you truly do want to change.

TMT, many of us here have been through "false recoveries." We KNOW what is rolling around in your wife's head, and it's not "hatred." It's resignation and indifference. That's the real "opposite" of love, and it's deadly. You have given her NO reason to continue to be married to you other than YOU "want one more shot" with her. As she knows has always been the case with the "old you," it's still about what YOU want, and not about what she wants or needs even if it means you "do without what you want."

Is recovery possible? Yes. My own opinion with respect to your marriage (considering what you wrote previously) is not without a complete focus on surrendering, really surrendering, your lives to God though. The MB principles WILL help, but WHY should she forgive you, let alone choose to try to build a new relationship with you without a truly changed heart?

The issue for you will be who will you grant the right to be sovereign lord in your life and to occupy the "throne," with you as the servant and not as the lord of your life trying to "be God."

So face facts, TMT, you are "out of chances." YOU don't "merit" any more chances from your wife. Only God can GIVE a "bonus chance," but if He does, it WILL BE the final chance, so don't blow it.

Put down your defensiveness and learn. Learn and accept. Accept and put it into practice. Practice until you always view your life and choices from God's perspective.

That is, if you really are interested in the impossible becoming possible.

People's advice and POV (Point of View) are just that, their own. You can't choose who is going to give you advice, what they are going to say, or if you agree. I suggest you turn down the "Sensitiity Button" and listen/contemplate/etc. and make a wise decision based on input from multiple sources.

Another thing you need to realise is that you have done a horrible thing. You are not a horrible person, but the action was. But, no one here on earth is truly good. Today is a new day, turn from your past behavior which was wrong and practice loving people.

SexyMamaBear - the reason I likened TMT's situation to yours is because your husband put you through one too many false recoveries. Thank heaven he changed! But you were definitely ready to move on and there was no going back to the old marriage.

TMT - defensiveness will get in your way of hearing what you need to hear and doing what you need to do. Nobody here has given it to you as tough as you probably know you deserve.

Your first task is to learn empathy. I don't know how that is done for you. Perhaps renting the video "Passion" and recognizing that your actions have made two people suffer. But I do know that at least ten steps to learning empathy have to do with service, without any expectations of reward or praise or relief. Some ideas for those ten steps:

Work some extra hours or take on a night job to cover the cost of Steve Harley. If you think Steve's too expensive, try considering what the divorce is going to cost you - because you're going to take on ALL those costs to make things right for your wife, right???

Don't take her flowers, or candy or tacky gifts at this stage. Instead, clean up the yard of your home. Plant flowers. Do whatever fixit up work needs to be done to get it ready for someone else to live in or her to stay in. Remember - no expectations of outcome.

Read up - every book you can get your hands on about healing the monster inside you that took her love for granted. DO what they tell you to do to heal that monster.

Schedule a polygraph session (that can come out of the wages from your 2nd job too). Let your wife know that she has free license to ask the toughest questions - and have her consult with the tester for how to word those questions so that you can't slide out on a half truth. Balls to the wall - tell the TRUTH.

If you have a house, sign it over to her - show her that your possessions mean nothing to you, as part of restitution.

Do everything you can to change the man who thought it was his right to do whatever he wanted including breaking her heart. Go to the core! Remove from your actions ANYTHING that could be considered manipulative.

Actions! Actions! Actions! That's what TST did that impressed me so much. He didn't ask his wife for another chance. That came from her. But he did show her a changed man - to the core, no going back.

I think I've seen this suggestion tossed around once or twice.

Personally, I think this not a wise thing to do.

Signing over your home is certainly an extraordinary act but I don't think that's what Dr. Harley intends when he speaks of just compensation and extraordinary precautions.

Sell the home perhaps and move to a new area away from the OP. Change jobs or even careers if necessary to remove oneself from the environment that nurtured the affair.

Just compensation isn't a monetary windfall for the BS. It is acts of good faith (extraordinary precautions) by the WS to affair proof the marriage.

jmo

TMT

WHY should your wife take you back?

WHAT do you bring to the table?

ba,

The precautions that might warrant this is in the event of financial irresponsibility....imho.

This would include the gambling of household money (which would include the compulsive gambler and the compulsive stockmarket players)and the use of household money to bankroll an affair.

Otherwise, you are right.

committed

I understand. And you are right; I was ready to move on.


TMT, false recoveries are devastating to someone who has been willing to take you back.

I would like to comment on this.

tst and I were married 19 years when he had his A. I had been a stay-at-home-mom for 17 years and had been homeschooling our children for 12 years. I had given up my career, my earning potential, and my own financial security because we were a team. We each had our different roles in our family that fulfilled what we BOTH felt was right for our family. It had been a mutual decision.

The affair was not a mutual decision. And because if it, we were separated and heading to divorce. I was faced with the painful reality that I might be forced to put our children in school and get a job outside our home. I had made the decision to stay home because I BELIEVED HIS PROMISES to provide and care for our children AND ME forever.

tst was also a business owner and had the opportunity to keep money from me if he desired.

TMT, before my FWS came home, I gave him a list of requirements that were what I considered the MINIMUM to get a ticket back into my life. One of the actions on that list was to sign a post-nup agreement. He did that for me, to demonstrate that he wanted me to feel safe, secure in our marriage, and to show me that he would give up anything to help me trust and heal. In that agreement, he gives me our home and belongings and 100% cash value of his business if we divorce EVER.

In our particular situation, this action made major strides in my opening my heart back to him. It was a huge gesture of his reignited commitment to his wife and family. He thoughts on it were that he wasn't going ANYWHERE ever again and that if he lost it all, it was consquences of his affair.

I think that this action was one of the biggest steps he took that caused major walls I had up to come down. I believed him when he said he would do anything...because he did.

He also agreed to a polygraph and many other things.

I was willing to take him back the first time without all these actions. But after that, he had to PROVE himself to me.

Your actions will speak to wife; your words won't. Words are meaningless at this point.

TMT,

I am willing to stay on your thread and post.

I think it is important for you to stay here on this thread with all of your information. The more feedback you receive, the better your chances to change your life.

I agree with those here who have said you need to turn your "sensitivity button" down a notch or two.

I have been called a piece of $hit, loser, manipulator, con, liar, waste of time, f'ing piece of wayward crap, and the list goes on. And they were all well-deserved titles. Many of the people that gave me these titles have also been willing to give me their time to help me change.

Some important information that would be helpful for me...

You may have already covered some of this, but it would help me to see it again.

How long have you been married?

How long did you date and did you date exclusively?

When was your first affair?

When was your second? and so forth through all of them...

Do you have any contact with any of these women?

If not, when was the last contact?


I've got a lot more questions, but let's start here.

I don't want to overwhelm you with questions, but these are important. Please answer them openly and honestly.

Honesty with both your wife and yourself would help alot, regardless of whether you can save your marriage. If you can't save your marriage (and I'm not saying you can't - just saying if), then you can at least learn to better yourself.

Some people have a harder time with monogamy than others. My guess is that you probably also cheated on every girlfriend you ever had before you married. That means you can't do things that other people can do. You can't have female friends, you just "just talk", etc. You have to have stricter rules for yourself to protect your wife (either this one or a future one) from your tendencies. And by trying to sort of walk the line between fidelity and infidelity you were just setting yourself up for failure. So don't do that - be honest with yourself about what you can and can't handle.

And had you been honest with your wife about all your "friends" - it probably wouldn't have been possible for you to do what you did.

This was a post-nup...to go into effect....IF you ever DIVORCE.

Did he sign over his half of the house to you before you considered allowing him to come home? Did he give you 100% of the business before coming home?

What purpose does that serve in affair-proofing the marriage?

I don't think that restitution is a good word to use in this instance. Restitution has nothing to do with making sure that another affair doesn't occur....at least monetary restitution doesn't ...IMO.

committed

smb,

I don't disagree that this is an extraordinary gesture. I just think it is not a very wise one.

You could divorce down the road for any number of reasons. You could have an affair yourself. Chit happens. He's left with nothing. I would at least have a sunset clause on something like this.

My only point was that I don't think this is the intent of just compensation. Perhaps that's not even what Kayla was inferring.

committed, I suppose I can imagine a scenario where the WS is squandering away marital monies on the affair to the extreme that the marriage is in major debt and at risk of losing the house. I'm sure this happens a lot. I still don't think I'd suggest signing over the house unless it was the only way to save it.

Anyway, I don't want to threadjack. Just tossing in an opinion.

By my previous actions she shouldnt take me back. However, she could allow me time, to make things right or as they should have been. Why should she take me back... there is no honest reason as of today. I repeat, I'm not asking her back fully, only a chance to prove myself. Why Should she give me a chance to prove myself..she shouldnt, but I need it, if this is going to work with the two of us. I will change and become a great man, but if she doesnt give me this last chance, I will become a great man for another woman, and not be in the same household with my daughter as she grows up.

I'm not sure what you mean by your second question, could you explain.

My point was that, in OUR circumstance, the post-nup was a gesture FWS made to demonstrate his commitment to follow through on his original promise (when I quit my job--and promised again many times after that) to financially provide for me forever.

Yes, you are right that this is not affair-proofing a marriage, but it is meeting an EN (financial support). It is also PROOF of a commitment back to the marriage. THAT was the true motive for my including it in my list of requirements. I wanted to be SURE that he was the real deal. No more false recoveries. No more half-measures. It was time for him to dive in deep or leave me the he!! alone.

He has taken many steps to affair-proof our marriage. BUT if TMT isn't the real deal (especially since he is a serial cheater), then talking about affair-proofing is useless. First, he must demonstrate that he is the real deal.

I am NOT saying he needs to sign over the house. BUT I would recommend to his wife a post-nup agreement. For the record, I did not have any specifics laid out about our post-nup. TST came up with the specifics and was even questioned quite a bit on it here, and advised against it. I even told him I didn't want it to be 100% value of his business. But he insisted. He wanted to give me that security, knowing full well that I could walk away 10 years down the road. And the truth is, in OUR situation, I have been taking care of business at home so that he can take care of business at work.

So, TMT, you need to think about what actions you can take that will demonstrate that you are the real deal???

So, in your agreement, your husband trusted and believed in you that you wouldnt later have an affair and leave him, b/c you never fully healed or recovered. That took alot of trust on his part.


Aside from that, my situation is a little different, I have mention a post-nup and she wasnt all that interested. I guess b/c I dont have much to offer. We have a decent home together. a pile of debt. I could say something like, I'll sign over the house and take all the debt, on cars, personal loans, and credit cards we share. I'll mention it again tomorrow. I've even said the polygraph thing as well, mainly cause I thought that would be a sure thing, no reaction so far though.

He didn't "sign over his half of the house". We own our home together. If we divorce, there is a post-nup that says he will give me the home and its belongings.

He did not give me 100% of the business. He signed a post-nup that says he will pay me the CASH VALUE of the business (I do not and will not "own" a single share of the business).

Yes, he agreed to the post-nup before he came home.

The post-nup doesn't serve to affair-proof our marriage. It serves to protect me financially, and to ensure that my children can continue to homeschool. You must realize that my husband left us TWICE over this last year. I wasn't letting him back in until I was sure he was "for real".

I think TMT's wife needs to know he is "for real", too, because of his multiple betrayals. His actions need to demonstrate that he is fully committed to the marriage before she should consider reconciliation.


BTW, the post nup was suggested here on MB long before FWS wanted to reconcile. And tst discussed it with Jennifer in our MB counseling.

The point of the post-nup wasn't for restitution. There really isn't anything tst could ever do to make up for what I have lived this last year. He can only take actions to make the rest of my life with him safe.

I'm really not up for debating whether we should or should not have a post nup. Any financially dependent wife that takes back a wayward (especially one who abandoned 5 children) without a post-nup, IMO, is a fool.

I hope that TMT can come up with some of his own ideas on how to demonstrate to his wife that his serial cheating days are over and that he is committed to doing whatever is necessary to make her feel safe in their marriage again.

No, he said he would risk everything to help me heal from his betrayal...regardless of whether I chose to leave him later. He went into it knowing that I might "throw in the towel". He said that the post-nup was an act of love for me.




Yes, your situation is different. But you are going to have to demonstrate to her you are the "real deal". You could ask her what it would take for her to believe that you have truly turned from your hurtful ways. Ask her what it would take for her to consider reconciliation.

Protection and care are expressions of love, BA - signing over the house is not words that he loves her - it's action. Actions are important here. She needs to know that he's willing to do something unconditional. Even if she won't give him a chance. He needs to do something extraordinary for HIM to heal - because right now, he can't even feel what he did to HIMSELF - let alone HER.

How long have you been married?
We got married June 18, 2005... so almost 3 years

How long did you date and did you date exclusively?
We started dating August 18, 2002 exclusively

When was your first affair?
My first affair was an emotional one with an older woman (Cat) that lives on the tip of the west coast and I on tip of the east. I meet her when she was in town with her twins, and one of them had cancer. She began telling me her children's life story I met her around May' 06. It started going the wrong way Jan 07, after a bad christmas with her husband and our way of conversations changed, and it went to telling me her personal problems at home. Slowly, I spoke more and more about problems or issues my wife and I had as well. Nothing too personal but obviously more than it should have been. she then started making little jokes about how she wished she could start over, and how is she were younger she'd want me. My wife knew we were friends, but didnt know we had deep conversation, I dont remember the date she found out.

When was your second? and so forth through all of them...
The second was with a girl (Car) I met at a party, with a ex-co-worker. Car and I only had a PA. My wife's sorority sister's boyfriend, and I were texting about the encounter, and his girlfriend found out and told my wife.

Third, was a EA and PA with Car again, I lied to Car, and told her she caused a separation in my marriage. Also, at this time with another female (Mitch), Mitch and I went to college together. I had PA with her during the few same months. Mitch was also married, and she and her husband never ever had sex.
I had secret email address, that I left signed into one night, and my wife found out about everything. Oct 07



Lately, I had been talking to a girl (AJ) I met randomly and exchanged numbers with about a month and a half ago, that has the same car as I, and I initial gave her info about the car club I'm involved in, and invited her out to a meet. I never told my wife I met AJ, and from there I started down the same path as before. I called her constantly, and hide it from my wife, and when confronted about it I lied again, saying I had only spoke to her a few times.

Do you have any contact with any of these women?
(CAT) No not since exposure.
(CAR) Sent "NC" but I have spoken to her once, and never told my wife, she found out when she found out about AJ.
(MITCH) Sent "NC" and no not since
(AJ) No not since exposure


If not, when was the last contact?

(CAR) Car's neighbor called me to get in contact with Car about Car's dog being in some kind of trouble, I called Car, and spoke to her for 10 minutes. This was the first week in march. Her neighbor called me again 4 days later, about the same sort of thing, that time, I refused.

Well I guess I'm still far from this point, b/c I cant get that type of response. So, Im in the dark as to what would directly affect a decision from her. So, my focus has been primarly inward.

What i'm saying is at least he was aware that if he does/agrees to 1 through 3, you would reconsider, and if he completed 4 and 5 you would ultimately take him back. (not actually number of steps but you get it)

TMT,

It sounds to me as if you are ONLY going to X, Y or Z *IF* it will ABSOLUTELY win your wife back.

WRONG attitude.

Immediately, and I do mean immediately, STOP putting conditions on your behavior. I can assure you that this is pushing your BS away. You have put conditions on your behavior towards her from virtually the beginning of your marriage and she sees right throught it at this point.

You appear to be figuring out how *little* you can actually get away with doing instead of figuring out how *MUCH* you can do to show her how much you want her as your wife. I would bet my house that that is how your wife sees you now.

Make a list(you have been given fabulous ideas here) of things you can do to SHOW her(in actions) that you care about HER more than YOURSELF. THEN DO THEM!!!!! Just go right down the list(with a cheerful attitude I might remind you!!) and do them all. Stop waiting to see IF any of them will help YOUR case. STOP worrying about how YOU feel and start worrying ONLY about how SHE feels. You have the rest of your life to get over YOUR feelings but you have a very small window of time here to do right by your wife.

I do not know how the posters here can make it any clearer to you. You are making every excuse in the book to KEEP from taking major steps toward "just compensation". JUST DO IT!!!!!!

Come out of the fog man. The lights are on. IF you want a real marriage NOW is the time.

As an example of what I mean, stop waiting to see if she wants a Post-Nup. Just go do it, present it to her and let her see HOW MUCH *YOU* are willing to do, even if it means NO reward for yourself.

Here's the truth(get ready for it!!) SHE IS *WAITING* TO SEE HONEST AND GENUINE CHANGE FROM YOU. Based on what you are saying, your wife has NO intention of negotiating your behavior and giving you a *chance*. She's already done that and it doesn't seem to have worked out too well for her. So NOW, YOU have to change, PROVE it and THEN she will decide where she is and IF she's going to give you a chance.

Unfortunately, you are clearly sending her the message that YOU are waiting to see if *SHE* is going to change HER attitude towards YOU and THEN you will take action to save your marriage.

BACKWARDS!! And it isn't going to work.

The worst that can POSSIBLY happen if you take the great advice that all these posters have given you is that you will turn yourself into an outstanding, productive human being who will now have the skills necessary to REALLY love someone and your wife will leave anyway(as is her perogative because of your betrayals). And you will STILL be an outstanding, productive, loving human being.

What is it you really want? JUST DO IT!!!

WH2LE

You very conveniently dodge every last question I asked you in the post. I'm sorry, but you are not ready. No, you do not realize. You may get there, but you aren't there now. Holding onto the idea that you are isn't going to help you.

You know what is really disturbing? If you had empathy and compassion for what your wife has gone through, and is continuing to go through, why would you want anything less than what will make her absolutely safe from it happening again while you fix yourself? In other words, why are you putting "if some of the things you suggest my wife feel need to be done, then so be it"? Why aren't you taking the step of moving out to protect her from your behavior until you learn to control it? Why aren't you giving her 100% transparent honesty, and opening up all your accounts (email, phone, text, finanical, everything) to her? Honestly, if her safety is, as you say, your highest concern, I find this very puzzling.


Oh yes, you are. "This last time I broke my wife's heart." Please. This last time? Your reality check has bounced. These are your words, not mine. This very conveniently ignores and invalidates that you've broken your wife's heart numerous times. "I've lied too many times." These are also your words, not mine, and they are predicated on an idea that there is a number of lies that aren't "too many".

If you are so serious, what marital counselor have you contacted to deal with your issues? Again, I'm sorry, but, "I'm willing to post on a free message board," does not cut it...not by a long shot...and especially not with serial infidelity. (Note: Do not wait for your W to go with you. This isn't about her.) Your compulsive infidelity, lying, and manipulation require intense, long-term therapy with a qualified, licensed therapist.

Let me also be very plain - you say one thing in your post, but then go ahead and do something very different. You are also a proven liar and manipulator, and your posts are so painfully transparent on that measure that everyone who has posted to you has immediately seen through it. Therefore, I will read the entire content of your post to decide whether or not you justify, make excuses, minimize, or fully accept your responsibility - NOT your one sentence claim. This is what you wife should be doing, as well. It isn't that there is anything wrong with either me, or your wife. This is what reasonable, intelligent, critical thinkers do when faced with a known liar who's subsequent words and actions fall far short of his/her initial claims.


This is more BS. The more clinical term for this is a cognitive distortion, but I find BS more apt and succinct. Your actions tell others what you really think and feel, and what your priorities are. Frankly, it doesn't really matter what anyone on this site (other than your W) thinks. It is her you have to show, and this is such a long, drawn-out process even if you succeed, that she should separate from you until you do.


Once again, this isn't about your wife, or what she does or does not do. This is about YOU, and what you do and do not do. Stop changing the subject to your wife. This isn't the type of thing that you do with assurance that it is going to save your marriage. It could or could not. Your wife doesn't owe you or anyone else reassurance that she will be there for you if and when you do these things. If by some miracle she is, you need to thank your lucky stars.

It may well be too little too late, but the only way you will know that is to try. The only way you are going to move forward is by keeping the subject on yourself and what you do and do not do. Changing the subject to what she does or does not do will not help you, and it will actually prevent you from doing what you need to do.

Get over it - it isn't about her.

Oh, and while I'm at it, stop listening in on your wife's phone conversations. You are being manipulative and controlling. This makes her unsafe. It is the opposite of what you portray in your initial post about just wanting her to have someone to talk to and give her good advice.

Butt out of what your wife is doing. Again, this isn't about her.

O.k., reading this thread is making me want to jump out of my skin!

My husband talks just like this, and says stuff just like this to me. It is sooooooo infuriating.

Lied too many times........

My husband is also a serial cheater. Only I didn't know that until 1 1/2 yrs ago. Supposedly, he hasn't been cheating since then, but his attitude is still VERY MUCH like yours. I did not just walk out on him either after finding out. I've been trying to be patient, not making any rash decisions, and I have just about come to the end of my rope, because his mindset is very much like yours.

I will most likely be filing for divorce, after my daughter's wedding in June. I have an appt with my attorney for next week to talk about it. I'm going to talk to her about a divorce and a possible post-nup should my husband ever get his head out of his [censored] because that's the only way I'll feel safe financially. I too was a stay at home mom and now I'm in school.

This is what I've been hearing from my husband.....He says that *I* am just as much to blame for all the problems we're having and he's the one that's been cheating on me since I've met him, used porn to replace me during all that time as well. *He* doesn't know if he wants the marriage or not, but in the next breath tells me he wants it more than anything. *He* didn't want to do what he could to help me heal. He thinks I am demanding and controlling because it hurts me that he doesn't care about what I need to heal. He is basically living away from home "trying to become a better husband and father" all the while almost completely ignoring me and my needs. Unbelievable.

But you know what? He sounds just like you and everything everyone here is telling you is what you need to hear. If you really want this marriage, listen to them. My guess is that you're wife realizes that you are still selfish and only thinking about yourself and that is easy to see while reading your posts. My husband sounds just like you.

Quit expecting anything from your wife. She's not going to be the least bit interested until you stop making it about yourself. All I hear is you, you, you.

{{{{{{{{{{{Mopey}}}}}}}}}}

TMT,

Sounds like your wife may be done at this point!
Are you still willing to do whatever it takes to be the GREAT MAN you said you want to become and to help her heal no matter what the outcome??

Thanks TST. I'm dying inside, but trying to revive myself at the same time, with God's help.

I feel for TML's wife.

Absolutely. It is all about what he can get, and very little about what he can do or what he has done.

I thought I'd just quote this so that it appears twice, as it is fabulous...

Takola,

You honor me. Thank you. Because I am still a newbie here, I worry every time I post. (I posted here because I am with mopey. This thread is making me want to jump out of my skin.) I wish TMT's wife would post.

Blessings,
WH2LE

Oops! I just read H@23's thread.

Why would they tell you you can do something when you haven't given a shred of evidence that you can?

So far, all you've demonstrated is that you have the emotional response going, are still pretty much in a wayward state of mind and that you are looking for someone else to bail you out of the situation you've created.

So, given what you've demonstrated as of the writing of the post I've quoted here, I'd agree with the assessment so far.

That doesn't mean it has to be that way. But it does mean you have to own your behavior in a real way, not just casually as if you were caught with your hands in the cookie jar, but in a what I did was really stupid and I don't deserve forgiveness, but I'm asking for your forgiveness fashion.

Words are cheap, put it out there if you love your wife. Put your things, your kids, everything out there and say it's all hers, regardless of if she wants you or not.

Scary huh?

Now you know just a part of what she feels being betrayed, scared.

TMT...have you ever hit your wife?

I ask because you seem to have some control issues to go along with your lack of sincerity. If you have, I can help steer the both of you towards the help that you need to get away from these issues.

Okay, TMT:


What have you ACTIVELY DONE to fix this marriage?

I haven't posted in a couple of days. By now, you should have been able to:

1. Make an appointment with a counselor.

2. Written No Contact letters and given copies to your wife.

3. Given a copy of your emails, cell phone numbers, and any passwords to your wife.

4. Set up an appointment to talk to your pastor.


Those four things are at least do-able. Right?

Have you done them?


I ask, because I see you have posted.

Make some phone calls. If you cannot afford counseling, ask your pastor for counseling, and ASK HIM IF YOU CAN WORK IT OFF AT THE CHURCH.

I'm sure they need trees planted, the homeless fed, the church van driven to pick up children for Sunday School, the elderly helped on Wednesday evenings to get to Bible Study, and a host of things that are broken that need fixed or cleaned up and painted. Make yourself useful.

Get 'er done. Stop talking about it and start DO-ING IT.

Hi SchoolBus,

Well, I havent done alot. I have spoken to my employer about what my health care covers, then next, Blue Cross. I then searched around and found one really great Psychologist that specializes in Marriage, Infidelity, Divorce, Spiriuality, and only to find out they are out of network, and would cost the same as Steve. I have a telephone appointment however with a counselor that fits some of that tomorrow at 7:30. I haven't written the new contact letter, I actually, have to recontact the person to send them the letter, b/c I dont have her email address to send it to her, so I was a little hesitate about that, but its definitely a can do, just how should I go about the recontact to get the email address. She has always had all my passwords to everything since we started dating. I havent change my cell number YET, but I'm going to this week. I talked to my pastor on Sunday, and he is suppose to be getting back with me on a date, but I'll be proactive again on tomorrow evening if he has yet to respond. i have told my parents everything. I'm not sure if she is ready, If I should just call hers, what do you think. I remember someone saying something about it before, so I had been thinking about it, and I know she hasnt told them yet, but I dont know how she would feel if I told them, again what do you think.

Aside from those few things, I've really just had a hard time focusing at work, I not only havent accomplished all the things you asked, but I havent been being very productive at work, so I really need to get this psychologist ASAP.

Basically it's what others have asked you. What are you willing to do? Specifically. How are you going to prove yourself? What PERMANENT changes are you going to make?

IMO, don't call hers unless she has agreed to it. Even though the BS did not have the A, there is alot of shame felt for it. There is also embarrassment. This should be her decision, not yours. However she should be made aware that you have been discussing your A with others so she is not blindsided.

What else do people think about this. As of today, she tells me she loves me, but doesnt want to stay to get hurt all over again. So, she would like for me to leave the home after graduation, when she will then file for separation. At this time, i must found somewhere else to stay. Granted, this means she doesnt have to uproot our 11 month old daughter. Is this the typical thing that most people do? What is the term abandonment really mean in court. What type of rights am I giving up with this action. I'm really considering it, but I would really like to know peoples' opinion about how it worked or didnt work for them.

To be even more transparent. I typical make after taxes and things are taking out about $2300 a month.
$787 goes to mortgage
$333 car payment
$175 car insurance
$160 family plan cell phone
$90 Electric
$100 Gas Bill
$310 Deeply Discounted Daycare
That 1955, and we still havent eaten, brought baby products (diapers, food), put gas in the car, pay minimal on credit cards, and/or medical bills, or student loans.

I dont know where getting a new place with fit into that. I must be living in the homeless shelter, b/c mother lives 2 hours away, and the rest of my family 2 states north. And if I stay with friends, I'm going to have to fork over something. On top of that she is being told not to get a job. I need counseling, with is going to another $160 a month, if I go only once a week.

This was the stupidest decision I've ever made!!!

I would suggest that for legal advice, you either speak to a lawyer or find out the rules for your state as they are all different.

Finances...I would get rid of the car as it eats up too much of your income (both with insurance and the car payment). I also would strongly suggest getting a part time job as well.

I was betrayed by my former wife. I didn't know it at the time, but everyone here suspected it. When she said she wanted to move out, wanted space, etc, I couldn't eat or sleep for the better part of a month. I think I lost about 30 pounds in 3 months I could eat. Eventually after a few weeks, I could sleep again because I was just so exhausted.

It's only by the grace of God that I didn't die in my car.

I questioned everything and wondered what I did wrong, how I had failed, when she was just having an affair.

So then, almost three months later, I found out about that too.

Do I want to commit actions that signify I'm encouraging divorce? Wouldnt i have a negative reaction by doing things that accepting of divorce and seperation? Is this what everyone is saying that they did, or I should do?

Logically, I was thinking that I would want to keep telling myself I have another chance, so that it helps me keep my drive going to achieve some of the tougher goals. For instance, I've always said since my graduation, I wanted to gain another five pounds of muscle, but it hasnt happened I think b/c I didnt have anything to drive me to that achievement. Or I've heard people say they didnt lose want until their children made a comment or something like that. I think people need a driving force sometimes, and if dont accept what maybe, but look on to what could be, wouldnt I be better off...?

I am not suggesting that you encourage divorce. You have legal questions that you want answers to...most likely you can find them online. As far as another job and the car, that is just sound financial advice.

It's really too bad that all WS don't look at these type of consequences while they are pondering infidelity.

I'd get a cheaper car, if not lose that one completely. There are many running cars that are maybe kind of old, but will get you around. With a cheaper car, your insurance will be less expensive as well.

I'd also look into buying out the contract on the family cell phone plan. Cell phones are very nice, but not a necessity. For emergencies, you can pick up a pre-paid cell or even a phone card.

If your wife has been told not to work, why the $310 for daycare?

i am going to assume the daycare is for while she is in school full time.

you say this is the stupidest mistake you ever made?
no, you have made several stupid mistakes, this last one just finally bit you in a** but good.

tell us, if your wife wasn't finally leaving you, would you be so motivated to change?

and, you need to change because it is the right thing to do. so, if your wife wants divorce, then you have no motivation to change?
good lord help the next woman that gets involved with you then!

yes, you should have thought of finances before unzipping your pants. if she wants you to leave, grant her that. she deserves to have the house for her and your daughter to live in. go to a therapist that is covered by your insurance because you aren't going to be able to afford to pay for one out of pocket. not sure what state you are in, but child support will probably cost you anywhere from 17-23% off of your gross minus fica, for one child.
you will have to pay at least 50% of the child care as well.
you made your bed several times over, you may just have to lie in it. you will either have to stay with a friend or move back to family.

if your wife does take you back, IF, i sure hope you have learned your lesson. don't ever screw her over again like this. i think a little time on your own, moved out, and really feeling the consequences of your multiple actions might good for you.

mlhb

Take on a 2nd job - you need to be bringing in enough to cover the costs of divorce worst case scenario.

Get your resume in circulation for a better paying job. focus on your head and heart instead of muscle mass for a while. You have a baby to take care of.

Motivation? Let it be doing the right things for the right reasons, instead of what it will get you - after all - what it will get you is what got you into this mess in the first place.

You'll find the counselor to be dirt-cheap compared to lawyers.

IF you were SERIOUS about helping your wife heal and doing whatever is necessary to facilitate that, you would NOT be reading her thread. You would, instead, allow her the support and help she needs.

I figured that comment on your wife's thread would prove important.

And I did not tell her NOT to get a job. I told her to consult an attorney. How unfair it would be for her to put up with all the s%hit you have pulled in your marriage, and then get a great job and actually have to pay YOU something.

IF you were serious YOU would be less concerned with taking care of yourself. You do not yet COMPREHEND the level of betrayal you have committed. I wish you did, because your wife NEEDS you to "go there".

It's not about supporting divorce it's about protecting your wife from your hurtful behavior.

Read what I wrote again. I was a wreck for three months and when I was starting to get comfortable with things, thinking I could win my WW back, the other shoe drops and I find out she's having an affair.

Clock set back to zero. I didn't lose another 30 pounds and it was likely only the pain pills I was taking (I found out about the affair while recovering from surgery, BTW) that enabled me to sleep.

So why not ask your pastor or a marriage counselor to mediate a controlled separation. Your goal is to protect your wife from the hurt until she feels safe enough to allow you back into her life. While this is going on, you work on those behaviors that caused the hurt, work on what you were not doing for her. Maybe just ID'ing that, as she may not let you meet her needs anymore, or only meet some, such as providing money so she still has a home for herself and the children.

You have just hit your wife with an emotional shotgun and she is lying there, extremely wounded. She knows you are the one who shot her.

Do you think she wants you to help her heal right at this moment? I feel pretty safe in answering no on her behalf. Even if she wants you to help, I don't think it's a good idea because you probably still have that loaded shotgun, even if you don't think you do.

So it's entirely possible that it will go off again.

The best thing you can do right now it to offer safety for her. The guaranteed way to do that is to not be there right now. That doesn't mean it has to be the first step to divorce. However, it needs to be something that both of you agree upon.

Right now, I think you need to just agree with her for a specified time period. Why not a 90 day separation administered by your Pastor, where both of you have accountability partners and period meetings to address anything she wants to talk about?

I agree that separation just for the sake of separation is bad. But if there are some objectives and boundaries on that separation, it could be the very thing that saves your marriage.

IF you were serious YOU would be less concerned with taking care of yourself. You do not yet COMPREHEND the level of betrayal you have committed. I wish you did, because your wife NEEDS you to "go there".

I guess I'm in the fog, b/c I dont see how, me not caring about myself or how I'll end up if she still chooses to divorce me is a wise decision. I've been trying to have faith in God, and allow him to work things as he would like. I do comprehend the level of hurt and pain I've put my wife through. How does me being in debt up to my eye balls, and broke after all of this, with no house, car, or anything else for that matter, prove anything except, that I was a fool. Granted I've already proving I'm one for cheating multiply times. I dont understand yet.

you being left with nothing doesn't prove anything at all.
it is called "the consequences of your choices"

and don't think she will be living the lap of luxury either.
i have struggled my butt off trying to make ends meet after deciding to end my marriage to a serial cheater. but broke was better than living with him and his lies.

financially you will both hurt for a while, but you will make it through, we all have.

mlhb

OK, I have to admit that it's easier when one gets farther from the crisis, but if you are really trying to have faith in God, then have faith in God regardless the outcome.

My faith was shaken when I ended up divorced? Why? Because I thought I had faith in God. I had faith in an outcome, not God.

God is bigger than any outcome.

Maybe you WERE a fool when you had your affairs. You can't change that. But then you can tell the world how much you messed up, that you had to pay the price, but God has seen you through it, regardless the outcome.

Look at what Paul wrote, he was the chief of sinners. He persecuted the Christians, had them put to death, and was changed by God on the Road to Damascus.

His life didn't suddenly become the world's definition of success, he was shipwrecked and imprisoned and even lived through an earthquake that destroyed the jail where he was imprisoned.

You may be in debt, divorce, living in van down by the river. But without Christ, you are the fool.

What matters more, does God think you are a fool, or your peers here on Earth?

It sounds to me that you are still more concerned about how your peers here will see you, than how God will see you.

good post enlightened.
humble yourself before God. nothing else matters. pray that HIS will be done no matter what, whatever that means and whatever that takes. AND, his will may not be what you want. BUT you submit to it anyway.

I think you are going to learn a lot from this situation. At least I sure hope you do.

mlhb

This situation doesn't 'benefit' you, that's clear. But then, you've already extracted far more than your fair share of benefit from the marriage, don't you think?

Your living in penury doesn't help your wife, but your absence from her life does.

Her choice is between insecure marriage/untrustworthy husband/relative financial security, and difficult finances/absence of emotional misery/prospect of finding a more reliable man. You've devalued yourself far below the point where your presence in her life is of any positive benefit.

TA

It is not at all logical to make your actions dependent upon what she does or does not do, nor whether or not you know you have another chance.

She's not going to give you another chance at this time. She may not ever. The only way you can possibly get another chance is to earn it, and that by doing hard, demonstrable work on yourself. You cannot talk your way out of a situation that you behaved yourself into. You have to behave your way out by changing your behavior.

Right now, you are trying to talk your way out, which is also an illogical approach for someone who has no credibility.

She is not responsible for providing you with motivation. You are an adult who is responsible for motivating himself.


I don't buy the "fog" explanation for your behavior and actions. Fog is a temporary mental state that a wayward spouse visits. There are too many indications that this is your long-term state of mind.

The key to your problem (and I'm not talking marriage here) is that you seem to think this is all about what happens to you. It is all about what you get or do not get. Your focus is entirely on benefits for you.

I don't suggest that you stop focusing on yourself, but I suggest that it stop being ABOUT what happens to you or doesn't. I suggest that you shift your focus to what you do and do not do, and taking sole and complete responsibility for what you do and do not do.

Right now, what you are doing is posting on a free message board, and really focusing on what you can get from her and get her to do...and that is the message you are sending.

What aren't you doing? 100% transparent honesty. 100% transparent accountability. Actual investment in therapy with a qualified therapist. Ensuring your wife's safety. The list is quite lengthy. When you do these things, then people will begin to entertain the idea that you aren't manipulating further.

And...for the love of deity and the sake of all that is holy stop using your wife's posts to argue with her about them. The absolute first thing you need to do is to make her safe. She isn't safe so long as you are trying to control what she does, manipulate what she does, or berate what she does. This is abusive.

Read up on the Love Busters (it is free) out here and eliminate EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM ALL THE TIME WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

Until you do, your wife is not even safe to talk to you.


I have news for you...you are going to be in debt up to your eye balls and broke after all of this no matter what. (My divorce legal bills - just mine - alone were $20k.)

If you actually own a house, chances are that it is marital property, and you won't have it, either. Guess what? In states where they can award the house, it will be awarded to the custodial parent. In states where they cannot award the house (like Maryland), if neither of you can afford to buy the other one out, the house will be ordered sold, and the proceeds will be distributed according to court order. Even if the house itself isn't marital property (as mine wasn't...it was solely in my name and purchased prior to the marriage) half of the equity built in the house during the marriage is hers - even if you were the only one to ever pay a mortgage payment (as I was). I know. I just went through this. Your income during marriage is considered marital property, thus, all the payments are, too.

If you rent, you will probably have to go down to more affordable accommodations. If you keep your car, consider that lucky. That's the reality of divorce. Divorce is the logical and natural consequence of the behavior that you chose to engage in.

As I said, your reality check has bounced. You are not operating anywhere near reality. Legal separation alone can force these things to happen as part of the financial settlement and distribution of property. This is the reality that you are facing. Don't shoot the messenger...


Oh yes, you've already proven yourself to be a fool. Most people do that several times in their life, so don't take that so hard. However, the question is whether or not you are going to correct it.

Let me present this from another perspective, the BS's perspective.

My wife cheated and still got 1/2. Actually, she got more than 1/2 because she didn't get 1/2 of the debt. The best deal I thought I could get was the debt split based on income percentage, not 50/50.

My unfaithful ex-wife dropped her request that I pay her legal fees, alimony, and undervalued our marital home by enough that it did ultimately end up being about a 50/50 split.

So tell me, why should the unfaithful party get ANYTHING in the case of a divorce. You break the marriage, I (as well as others) believe the unfaithful party should walk away with either nothing, or nothing more than what he/she had when entering the marriage.

Oh, my unfaithful ex also got 1/2 of the increase in my 401(k) and IRA accounts.

Fortunately, I kept good records and knew what I had prior to getting married. Between that and the dot.com crash earlier this decade, I lost more to the crash than I did to my ex-wife.

But the whole time, I wondered why a cheating spouse is entitled to anything marital. After all, they busted up the marriage, why should they get anything.

If you get half, you are still getting infinitely more than I think any wayward spouse is entitled to.

exactly.

A WS should forfeit being a custodial parent...the family home...any and everything. They should leave with their clothes and not much else.

How many BS on here are seeing their dollars spent on a WS and the OM/W...too many.

How many fathers are being forced to pay for children they now get to see on a very limited basis because the WS broke up the home. Too many.

How many BW are left to fend for their children while the WH walks around spending money on his ho?

Get the point!

This is true. Distribution of marital property is not based upon actions in the marriage in most states. They are decided separately.

However, what I have said is also true. What I've said is based upon law, legal precedent, and what was explained to me by multiple lawyers and a 2 judges. The information I gave was not at all based upon any behavior during the marriage, which is why it doesn't reference any.

Be aware, though, that in some states, marital actions do affect property distribution. In those states, he is in even bigger trouble than the information I gave.

The idea that he will weather this storm while maintaining his current lifestyle when his income is just enough for his current expenses as it is, well, that's a naive belief that is not grounded in reality.


Yup, and he (and all) should take note of this. Capital gains accrued during the marriage (even on retirement accounts) are marital property. In fact, this applies not only to capital gains. If you got it during the marriage (even if it is appreciation or interest), it is marital property.

EE's other point should not go unnoticed, either:


EXACTLY. I'm not, in general, an advocate of divorce. I am even less an advocate of a person remaining in a situation like your wife's. It is harmful and hurtful. In fact, I will go so far now (several days and posts in on both threads) as to call it abusive.

*head scratch*

What's that got to do with H@23?

Newbie or oldbie doesn't matter...content matters. Your post was 100% awesome.

TMT's wife has posted over on Divorcing/Divorced. The thread title is "I'm leaving him". TMT links to her thread in his initial post.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2036648#Post2036648

I don't think anything I've said is about H@23, do you have a specific point that is troubling to you? Perhaps I'm unclear or have worded something poorly, but I can't fix what I don't understand.

What I'm saying is that if one is really remorseful, they would be willing to give up any marital property, sending a clear message that they have betrayed not only their spouse, but the family. That they are willing to abide by the decisions of the betrayed. That they let go of any assets built up during the marriage, continue to shoulder any debts created in the marriage, and work on themselves, figuring out how to survive on their own as well as continue to support the family they created and betrayed.

It is action such as this, consistently done that sends the message that the unfaithful spouse owns his/her own behavior, recognizing that the decision is ultimately up to the betrayed spouse as to where things go from here.

I think anything short of this is just entitlement, I.E. "me" mentality.

TMT,

Let me add one more thing to drive this home.

Affairs are abuse, plain and simple. You need to own this one. You speak about your pastor or priest, so unless your vows meant nothing, you have violated a foundation of your faith, desecrated a sacrement if your Catholic.

According to biblical teach, marriage is God's metaphor for His relationship with us, and you have abused your wife by breaking your vows, pure and simple.

I think you need to let this sink in, your behavior up to this point has been abusive.

If you are not willing or able to accept this, then there is no hope that you will ever progress to a better place with respect to your wife.

You may still never get there because she has closed that door. Frankly, if she has, I would not blame her.

But if you want any hope, you need to accept that you have done this. You may not understand it, but understand it's one of the most hurtful things you can do to another human being.

Start there.

Your post seemed to be a rebuttal to Takola's when Tak was addressing a WS. Isn't H@23 TMT's wife?

The only thing I've rebutted of Tak's is her mistaken impression of what I was saying in H@23's thread.

I certainly didn't offer a rebuttal of her here. In fact, I asked TMT why he would expect anything, that he doesn't really deserve ANY marital assets, that affairs are abusive, etc.

I'm not seeing how that could possibly be a rebuttal of Tak in any stretch of the imagination.

So if we want to start a he said, she said thing, why is she rebutting me, not the other way around.

But I don't think we want to do that, do we?

I could be wrong.

So TMT,

What is it EXACTLY that you don't understand about what you should be doing at this point?

This is a serious question.

Maybe if you can clear that up for yourself and for US you might be able to get this.

WH2LE

I asked a question to clarify. It didn't make sense for you to ask Tak to tell you why a WS should get anything from a settlement, when she had just said that TMT may not be left with much.

Here's why I thought what I did:


I didn't see that you addressed TMT in this post, and only quoted and replied to Takola's post.

TMT,

Ok. So you've talked to the pastor -follow up on that.

Get the counselor who is on your health plan.

If it requires you contacting a friend, doing an internet search, or doing something else to get an email address for the other women in your life, do it. In your case, I think it is important that you send the no contact letters. Especially to the OW that you went back to for the EA and PA. You need to establish no-contact because you need to make this statement to them - for yourself and for your wife, both. I think if you do not close these doors behind you, the very likely possibility is that you will keep them open and keep looking out for that little crack of light coming in. You are the addictive kind, and a repeat offender. Close these doors, lock them, and throw away the key.

BRB...

I'm back.

One of the concerns I have is that you focus here a lot on what to do for the divorce - how to protect your finances, etc.

While that is important, and it does have its place, the main thrust of your life right now while you are still living with your wife should be

PERSONAL CHANGE

I hope you understand that.

Because if you expect to save your marriage, there is nothing else that will do it.

NOTHING ELSE WILL SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE EXCEPT PERSONAL CHANGE.


You must come to that realization and accept it, and stop everything else in your life.

Stop worrying about money.

Stop wondering what your wife is doing - because YOU cannot and do not control it. You control only one person in the marriage - yourself - and you have done a completely rotten job of that. (Sorry, the truth is what it is.)

Stop thinking about "what if" scenarios.


START:

Focusing on the idea that you need to take personal and positive action in your life to rehabilitate your mind and soul.

This affair was not about your wife. It was not about the sex life you two did or did not have. It was not about how much your wife weighed. It was not about how pretty your wife is. It was not about how much your wife spent. It was not about how much time your wife let you have out with the boys. It was not about your wife....anything.

This affair was was about issues within you that resulted in you allowing your personal morals to degenerate to the point where committments and vows to others meant nothing. Issues within you that caused you to focus on only what you wanted and felt, to the total exclusion of the needs and desires of others - including those you actually loved - despite the fact that the whole time you KNEW you did not want to hurt them, and did so anyway. Issues that made it far more important to pursue a temporary "fix" of pride and glory, of sexual conquest - and to ignore the pain you were causing to someone who loved you, and in the same breath, to yourself, although you never even saw it coming until now.

Lots of personal issues, right there in that paragraph.

Because, TMT, you have lots of personal change to take care of.

Don't sweat the small stuff - and believe me, if you work on the personal change, this divorce stuff might just take care of itself. You COULD make enough change in the right direction - if you made REAL CHANGE - that the door could open a crack on your wife's side. That would be the correct door - one that you don't want to throw the key away on, right?


If it were me, I would make a move in the direction of some sort of post-nup. I would hand write it myself, and commit to it, and ask her to delay a divorce for a certain period of time, asking her to allow you to show her POSITIVE change. I would leave it up to her to say yes or no. It is in her hands - you've messed this up, and she has every right to say no. You could draft a post-nup, and agree that after a certain period of time if you do not demonstrate clear and positive change to her liking and satisfaction, you will sign a divorce in accordance with the post-nup....just buying you a little time to make some changes. It might make both of you feel a little more stability in terms of finances and risk if things don't stabilize in the marriage for either of you.

But then, it's on you - and you don't have much time anyway, TMT. But you have to drop your defensiveness, and move ahead to the change phase, now. Unfortunately, you do not have the luxury of sitting back and taking your time.

I don't know that she would go for it. I have not read her thread, but most say she's done. But she still says she loves you. Perhaps there is hope. I'm always optimistic if there is love.


SB

Because they may be legally entitled to, despite what they might really deserve in the eyes of a BS.

TMT, before you or your wife sell, sign over or liquidate any marital property, you should each consult with an attorney.

You should also consult with a marriage professional or better yet, the Harley's themselves. If your marriage has a chance in hell of surviving this, you will need a plan.

You can read the material on this site, buy the books, read and post on the boards and basically "wing it" all by yourself, but your chances of success will be greatly diminished.

I agree with you here. I'm not disagreeing with you on any of this, actually. What someone is legally entitled to is another matter, though. My point is that, either way, he's not looking at keeping all the things he lists as possible losses if he signs a post-nup. He's just not being realistic with that expectation. Most of it will be gone anyway. That's the stark reality of separation and divorce that he needs to realize.

I agree that a professional is called for. This is way, way beyond self-help at this point. I'd also go so far as to say that it is way, way beyond phone counseling. Depending upon the numbers you accept, between 70 and 90 percent of communication is nonverbal. All of that communication is needed for a counselor to help in this situation, and this man needs face time with a counselor. He also needs quality individual therapy, because serial infidelity, lying, and manipulation of this sort is often coupled with behavioral and psychological issues. These issues aren't worked out on a message board, over the phone, and doing self-help books. In fact, it takes years with a good therapist. Personally, I suggest a clinical psychologist. Do not go with a MSW, it needs to be someone trained and skilled with psychology.

This is excellent advice.

That's the problem. Start doing a lot of work focused solely on yourself and your behavior, and not on her and what she's doing.


I strongly suggest the best counselor you can get, but if you cannot (really cannot after you cut expenses for things you don't need) afford that one, get one that is in-network.


Well, that's a start. What type of counselor?


If you know how to contact her, you should be able to get the letter to her without any further contact. Mail it to an address.


Ok, after the post was going so well, you set off my BS detector again. It is buzzing loudly, because in your first post you say, "My wife caught me the first time when she found a private email I was using. From that email, She found out that I had been having sex with 2 different women, and still contacting a person that she forbidded me to talk to."

Now, let us try again. Give her all the URLs and passwords for every single account (including IM, message boards, and chat rooms) that you have. Period. Do not clear out your history, emails, or sent items in any of those accounts. Do not, no matter what it says. The lack of history, sent items, and received items is a red flag that you are still being dishonest. She will see it that way. No exception unless it is your MB one (small exception noted for that one). Please don't say that she's always had them since you were dating, as that directly contradicts what you say in your first post. It isn't helping your credibility.


Do it ASAP, with no excuses for a delay. In fact, you need to change your cell number each and every time contact happens, too.


I think this is a great step, and your pastor can be a source of important spiritual guidance. However, keep it to personal spiritual guidance. It isn't about what your wife does or doesn't do, it is about your path. A pastor isn't a very good marriage counselor, in general. Remember that part, as well. There are some exceptions, but as a rule they aren't very good at marriage counseling and individual mental/behavioral health issues. Spiritual, yes.


What you need to do is write a letter to your parents outlining everything you have done. Do not make excuses for your behavior. Do not justify it. Just list out everything that you have done, including the lies. Print two copies. Take them out, and (if and only if your wife is willing) put one inside an envelope and seal it in front of her. Address it, put a stamp on it, and mail it. Put the other copy in a second envelope, and hand it to your wife for if and only if she wants to read it. If she doesn't, that's fine and accept it. If she rips it up and throws it away, that's fine and accept it.

This is so that she can know (without relying on your credibilty, which doesn't exist) what you have told your family.


Given where your wife is and what she wants (which is nothing to do with fixing the marriage), I strongly suggest that you not contact her family. Right now, that is her safe harbor, and it will only come across as manipulative from you. She will see it as you invading her safe harbor. Do not contact her family without her enthusiastic agreement.


Seems to me that you need to really sit and think about your priorities, and adjust your efforts and time distribution accordingly.

Well, the main reason I was speaking of details of divorce was after reading peoples post, it had me thinking of best and worst cases.

Actually today I had my first 2 hour session. And have another appt. on Thurday.

I think she will help me alot. My have the opportunity to attend 20 session through my insurance at the copay rate of $40.

Also, someone posted a control diagram or something on my wife's post, and my wife and I went over that today, and I presented it to my counselor. I allowed my wife to highlight what she thought i had issues with.

http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/power_control-wheel.html

So, in her opinion I have with...


Intimidation
Abusing pets

Using Emotional Abuse
Making her feel guilty

Using Isolation
Controlling who she see, or what she does

Minimizing, Denying, and Blaming
Everything in that topic

Using Economy abust
Making her ask for money
Not let her know about family income

So, if you print and highlight those things, I have about 2 full sections to workon, in just those areas. So, this was great to find out.

Love is there, it just hasnt been show very well.

Well, next up,

Thursday: Post-Nup, Cell phone change, Second Session

Friday: Working 12+ hours... maybe find that third accountibility person.

Saturday: Family gathering for Baby's Birthday.

Bye for now...

TMT.....

Now you're talking.

And just so you know if you don't already .....your wife's complaints are considered "abuse". Let that sink in and then start openly apologizing as you go.

It would serve you well to order that book "How Can I forgive you" by Janis & Springs. You can probably have it delivered to your door for less than $15. It will show you what steps to take to go after "genuine" forgiveness, which is what your wife needs to heal regardless of the outcome of your marriage. If you do this for her, it'll also help you to feel truly forgiven. If you do this, don't skip the steps or do it just once. She has A LOT to forgive you for and with a serial cheater, my guess is it'll take awhile for her to forgive in layers, and years, years, to trust again.

TMT
Want a driving force?
READ some of the BS stories here!!! QueeniesNewLife, Phoenix4, Hopeandpray, LASunshine and many many more.
There, you will read minute by minute the suffering that they went through.
TMT, I am a FWW and when I started reading all of these stories, I could finally started to understand a little bit of his pain. When I was reading I tried to put myself in my H shoes, I was devastated to realize what I had done to him. For the past 15 months I have made my BEST efford to help him heal, and even thoug a lot of people tell me that it has been a long time, I do not listen to them cause I WILL be here for him all the time that HE needs to heal no matter what!!
See TMT, me and you can only IMAGINE what they are going through and the pain that they are feeling, we could NEVER understand that feeling completely because we have never been there.
I would ALWAYS be grateful to God and H for giving me another chance to recover my M!
If you get another one, please don't blow it off, and be patient with her because recovery is VERY hard.
I will be praying for you and for your wife.
God Bless.
A

Thanks Angie1718, and I've read your post as well. Its so hard for me, I'm up all night, and I cant eat, and I just multiple that by 10, and even then I can only imagine how she feels. I pray that God is comforting her where I have failed to.

Actually, she sort of gone to another male for comfort. The next day after she found out, one of the guys that study the same subject as she, she began to look him up online. I had never met the guy, nor had she ever mention this person as being in the study group. I asked her about her looking him up, and she claimed it was nothing, and she only saw him in her professors office. She never looked up anyone else from this group, or even talk about him. This was April 1.

So, two days ago, Apr 6, I'm calling her to go to lunch, and I go to the science complex, and I find her in a room with just her and him, and I can tell by the look on her face she was embrassed, b/c I'm calling her, as I walk in and she is talkin to him. That night she admits to being attracted to him. Again, I knew nothing of this person before she find out about my phone conversations.

Today, I drop her off to class she has at 1pm, at 1:02. I go home to get my bag, and decide I wanted to go to her professor and asked if he graded her paper early like he told me he would, and I find her not in class but again with him in a room. This is only 1:30, so she never went to class.

So, I asked her again, feeling like I already knew, are more than just friends. Answer is still "no". Later tonight, after we laid the baby down to sleep, she asked me how I'd feel about something regarding a hypathetical (sp.) situation, and of course I'd be upset. So, I ask her, has she told him that we are having problems, and are getting a divorce. She does this slight grin when she is about to lie, and she did it! So, I ask her specifically what she said, and she only admitted to saying she told him "just pray for my marriage". I asked if he knew she wanted a divorce, she said "no", I could tell they both were lies. She started to ask me why I wanted to know, and why I would even ask, did I know something, had I talk to someone.

Lately, she says something like "well, it doesnt matter we're getting a divorce remember", when we cant agree on something. She had been saying this to me 3 or 4 times a day about different issues.

Well this was my chance to say it first and I did unfortunately. So to be smart I said "Why do you want to know why I'm asking about him, remember your divorce me anyway" I knew that I probably shouldnt have said that and it hurt me more to say it, than it did for me to her it. I was so sure she was lying though. She gets mad and storms out. Of course, I know I've made her upset, and I cant help but follow, I apolgize, we take a shower together and after the shower she later admits to "only" today have been talkin to him about our problems, and telling him we are getting a divorce. I tell her, that when I talked to that woman on the phone, I told her about issues, and it made me feel great to have someone that "said" they understood, and was in my favor. I asked who else has she told, and I think that gave her a realization that turned to him since finding out the hurt, b/c she has only told her sister and one mutual friend, out of all the people she could have talked to it about. I feel like I've pushed her into the arms of another man.

I've also noticed that she has been reading all the old emails from the second affairs, and I think that is playing an another part in her emotions running up and down.

So is now in the other bedroom, and I so wished there was someway I could comfort her. YES, I know, its not my place anymore, I lost that privilege. I just think that if she continues in this hurt state of confounding in him, and not Him, that I will probably not have a chance in hell. I mean, I know the grass looks green. It doesnt have to look much better than the lawn I have, cuz I have no grass as of today. But I did spread some seed when I completed some task.

Well...Im done venting... please pray I stay encouraged, focused, worry less and trust in the Lord.

Rather than reply on your wife's thread, let's address the violence issue here. btw - your explanation on her thread did not really help your case - it just demonstrated clearly the root cause of your marital difficulty.

There is the same core fundamental root in the psyche of someone who abuses animals and people who have affairs. It's a developmental problem that I firmly believe can be resolved. So I recommend you discuss and work through the issue with the therapist that you're working with now. Kudos by the way, for taking that step.

The fundamental developmental gap is empathy. Sometimes children are not taught this skill, or the skill is not nurtured as part of childhood survival - playground, home, whatever.

I had a niece who went through puppies like crazy. One she had tied a leash on, then took it down the slide with her, and the leash got hung up on the top with the dog strangling on the line below. It died. That could have been classified as an accident, but her parents missed a teaching moment with this little girl - 3 at the time, to teach her empathy and care for her pets. They got her another puppy at age 4. Our families were at the school watching the guys (my husband, her dad) beat each other up on the tennis court. She kept pulling the puppy's ears, just to hear it yelp. I took the puppy away from her, pulled her to my side and took her hand and showed her how to "touch nice". The minute I let her touch the dog without me controlling her hands, she got this expression of pure defiance on her face and yanked that puppy's ears so hard, my own impulse to slap my nice was hard-controlled. I took the puppy away from her again at which point she tattled to her mom that I was taking the puppy. Her mom looked at me like how dare I interfere with her parenting responsibilities - I handed the puppy back to my sister in law and said, "animal cruelty by a 4 yr old with parental permission is still animal cruelty. Don't do it in front of me or I will keep the dog from a premature death like the rest of your pets have met." We were not on good terms for a while.

When you "feel for" someone else's pain, you would do anything to prevent it. Controlling your temper is a maturity thing - it can be developed. I have a border collie who would give her life for any of us, or the children in the neighborhood. If I so much as tickle my son, she's working her way between us, even though she's 13 yrs old and now spends most of her life tottering between the space under my desk and the back step. She has empathy for her family. And she has been a big part of the development of empathy by my husband. While he was not violent, he wasn't careful with how he treated his family or his pets. But he is now.

Empathy will help you set aside your worries about yourself to take care of giving your wife what she needs.

Work closely with the therapist on this skill because it will help you so much no matter what happens. You are going to need this skill to not lash out at your baby. Imagine this scene one of my neighbors experienced - twin daughters, 2 yrs old - somehow got their diapers off and started painting the walls poopy! Imagine if you'll beat your dog for an accident, what will you do with your daughter in this situation? You can't say, "well that's different" - you can't - because your temper is your temper, and your reaction to stimulus is predetermined by split second triggers instead of thought.

That's how important this skill is!

Why do you need to keep tabs on what her professor does?

TMT,

Again, this is about YOU. You have hurt this woman, maybe harmed her, and you want to drag what she's doing out in the open...for what?

When are you going to really focus on what you've done?

The only thing I drug out in the open is our life, if you notice, I actually talk about events and things that happen. How can you or anyone else here get an understand or anything else without knowing what is fully going on.

I shouldnt post anymore about what we openly talk about at home. This may give you too many sides to look from, so I will no longer go read her post, therefore if anyone else has anything to respond to what I just posted on her post, post it here.

Lastly and again, I'm was being as open and honest as possible, so that everyone can fully read me, and understand me. If I were to truly to get help I must not be in denial about anything. I ask questions, and I try to answer question towards me honestly.

We have session with the psychologist together on monday, and starts separately after that. then we come back together when she has enough info about us individual.

No, I see that you have dishonored your wife, repeatedly.

You admit that you have lied, repeatedly, so why should we believe you over her?

Don't mean to be rude you but can believe whatever, whomever you wish, in the end it doesnt matter. Your opinion is still going to be controlled by what information you recieve and your obvious view of that person. I was the wayward spouse, so I in most peoples opinion here it seems as I do not deserve... ___________ you fill in the blank. Respect, grace, mercy, trust... whatever.

You know my H was a serial cheater and lied to me about numerous affairs, and other garbage for 17 years.

After the initial d-day, which stretched into a d-year, with three more "confession sessions" and after each one telling me "that's all there is" and lying about some of those details, an inconclusive polygraph test, and lies by him still 4 months after the polygraph he says to me......

"I am upset that you don't know when I'm telling you the truth and when I'm not."

My jaw dropped.

Be patient. Don't get too defensive when your wife or someone here doesn't believe you, because you're capable of lying.

It'll take some time to prove that you're trustworthy in all things. Your wife will not be able to distinguish when you tell the truth and when you don't for quite some time.

And the worst thing you can do is to expect her to before you prove yourself. That's asking for the impossible. Who in their sane mind would automatically be able to trust a proven liar? It doesn't matter what you are, or are not, currently lying about.

Buckle up. It's going to take awhile and you'll need to carry the biggest part of the load for now. If you want your wife to heal with you that is.

You misunderstand me, I think. I have not said, and do not believe that you should be denied the things you stated.

I most certainly believe that you deserve grace and mercy. Trust is a different matter. That is something you earn. Only God really knows your heart.

So, in light of that, what are you doing to regain anyone's trust? Badgering your wife on her own thread is not going to do it. Harrassing her at home for things she's confided here doesn't do it.

Telling one story while she tells another doesn't do it.

Cheating on her and lying for years on end doesn't do it, either.

You are right that my trust in you means little. But you will not get the help you need if the folks here cannot believe what you say.

As long as you harp on her deeds instead of really taking a hard look at your own, and, I'd suggest, letting your wife go so that she can heal and grow, in the Lord apart from you, you will not gain you anything.

If you do those things, however, your marriage may have a chance in the long run.

Walk in the truth, even if the truth is not evident to us. God knows, and that's what is important.

PS. I honestly hope the best for your wife and you, and I have prayed for you, and will as often as I think of you two. At this point, though, I'm going to bow out.

TMT,

What are you doing today?

TMT - just a reminder from your first post. The support your wife needs, and deserves, is the right to say anything she wants to say on HER thread AND that you NEVER post on her thread.

If you can't do that, then you are not serious about wanting "another chance." And that IS my very reasoned opinion AS a former Betrayed Spouse.



Another reminder, if you want those things, EARN them, don't "expect them to be simply given" when your past actions would argue for NOT giving them.

Key thought: Forgiveness does NOT remove consequences of the adultery and it does NOT mean that a marriage will survive unless "respect, grace, mercy, trust," ARE reestablished. This is a case of the "requirements" of recovery that involve "do as I DO, not as a I say" that gives a reason for a Betrayed Spouse to consider recovery as an option.

DO you want to be married to you wife?
DO you really intend to make needed changes?
DO you really intend to "conform your life to one of 'Christ-likeness?

It's time to CHOOSE, TMT.

TMT,

Okay, two lists:

Good list.

You contacted the counselor and had a session, made the arrangements with the insurance. Good job! I was really glad to hear that you feel like you made a connection with that therapist too - that will be important for you.

The fact that she gave you a list of your bad qualities? While it might bug you, it is PRICELESS, GOLDEN, WONDERFUL. She is willing to offer you the ticket to her needs, TMT. She has put in writing the exact plan for you to address in order to fix what she sees as "broken" in the relationship. Go to work on that list, and really read it. Ponder it. Delve into yourself and understand what it is, why you behave that way, and what you can do to change those behaviors.

You are still in the home. I think that is important. You need to pair this lucky event up with behavior that matches your intention. Take advantage of the fact that your wife is allowing you to remain in the house - even though you are not in the same room. This is really for your advantage, and I think you are not focused on this fact. You have a HUGE chance here to show her every single minute of every single day the changes you are making. You can go home, do some housework (YES, YOU CAN), fix at least one thing, and then take some time out to take care of the animals instead of abusing them. I think that if you start moving in the direction of putting your hands on the creatures in a loving way, you might find that compassion and empathy that you currently lack for them. If it is a dog, give him a bath. Take him for a walk. You need the exercise and the 15 minutes of thoughtful meditation, and you need to bond with him. Do it for yourself, and ultimately you and the animal will bond. Back to the idea - you are in the home - take the time to make your moments with your wife valuable. MEET HER EMOTIONAL NEEDS WHILE YOU ARE THERE. FOCUS ON HER, NOT ON YOURSELF. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, YOU ARE GIVEN THIS ONE SINGLE CHANCE, STOP THINKING ABOUT YOURSELF. I was yelling at you, I want you to hear me. It's important.

The bad:

The control issue is bad. This really goes to YOUR FEAR. I have to give you a little "old lady" advice here, so excuse me this one time.

Every time you feel the need to control her, follow her, or tell her how to "be" - ask yourself what YOU are afraid of. Because, TMT, that is really what you are trying to control. You are trying to keep her from doing something that YOU FEAR. Get to the fear, you answer the problem, and you won't need to exert that ridiculous control.

You will also feel a lot less stressed. It is extremely difficult to micromanage someone else's world, isn't it?

So stop - take the time to address that fear head-on, face it, speak it aloud, and tell your wife what the fear is, instead of controlling her and telling her what to do. It is far more attractive, and far more loving to do that.

Hurting the pets: Geez. Cut that garbage out. Period. Get a grip - and listen to Kayla on this topic. She hit it on the head. Nobody can respect this behavior, and you CAN control yourself. You MUST control yourself.



Plans for action?

Focus. Personal Change.

Read that list she gave you. It is GOLDEN. It is the roadmap of personal change you need to walk.


And don't freak about criticism. It is how you will grow. Lots of times the things that get you the most angry on here do that to you because they really do hit closest to the truth - and that is what makes them so hard to hear. Listen to those posts a little more closely, and ask yourself "does this hit too close to home?" before you respond. Weigh the advice more thoughtfully, because most of the people here worked hard to get to the point of helping you. What they say might hurt, but losing your wife and family will hurt worse. Listen, THINK, THINK again, and before you reply, ask someone else if what the person has posted might be true of you or your situation. Watch for others to understand/post, too, before you reply - the combined posts often lead you to more understanding. Take your time, but work fast............I hope you know what that meant.

Schoolbus