Incredible post, SL. tst and I both thought your swimming pool analogy was right on!

TMT,

Just one question:

Are you willing to do whatever it takes to help your wife heal?

If so, then I will share with you what actions and attitudes made the difference for me.

But all of that is irrelevent if you aren't willing to do whatever it takes. My FWS did things that only a truly repentant, remorseful FWS would do.

We know your wife's pain intimately; we know her sorrow; her grief; her agony; her devastation. And you have done this to her more than once. So we would be aiding you in abusing your wife if you are not truly repentant and ready to take all necessary actions. We are NOT going to do that to your wife.

What are you willing to do?

Complete and total honesty about everything.
Make an appointment with the Harley's.
Agree to give her full custody of the children if she decides to divorce.
Take a polygraph.
Sign a post-nup agreement.
Be totally transparent by providing cellphone records, credit card records, appointment calendar, etc.
Protect your wife by not allowing other women to meet any ENs (no lunches, no female friends, no flirty conversations, etc)


These are just a few things you could start doing immediately to demonstrate your willingness to protect your wife and help her heal.

sexymamabear and tst,

It just popped into my head. It's really how I felt every time I attempted to recover my M with PWC. I jumped into that pool FIRST, and CRACK
split my head open--all alone in there, with no ladder to get out. It hurt more and more each time. Pile on top of that the continued affairs--it hurts a great deal when I think about how much pain I've been exposed to. It's going to take a looooong time to get over it. I would rather this BW not suffer the same slings and arrows, for they can be AVOIDED, just by waiting for the WH to start the marathon.

I take responsibility for choosing to try, certainly. I made some mistakes in there, that had I held out longer and been more adamant about the changes PWC needed to have, already in place, before I even dipped my foot in the pool, I probably wouldn't have suffered nearly as much. I would probably still be divorceing, but would have avoided all that added grief in between.

TMT, it's all on you, man.

TooManyTimes - I will restrict my response to what you wrote to me and let others respond to what you said to them.

You are not entitled to grace from me or from anyone else but God. No one is "entitled" to grace. What you might want to think about is "mercy" and "forgiveness." Forgiveness for the truly, sincerely, repentant, will be given. Mercy is a different matter entirely and you don't need mercy from us, you need it from your wife. SHE is going to need a lot from you if she should choose to give it to you because you have, to date and over the years, proven that you cannot be trusted to be true to your marriage vows. So if you want to have any chance at winning her back you are going to have to serious about marriage for the rest of your life, no matter how many problems there may or may not be in the future.



Like most things, TMT, that was a choice you made. I guess the question really is how real you really think God is?

That may be a starting point for you.

TMT,




This is your subject line. Let's start there.

You are absolutely right. YOU are a WS.

And you are absolutely right. YOU HAVE lied too many times.

What turned me off to posting to you at the beginning was your last two words..."it seems". Either you have, or you haven't. There is no "it seems". Pretty big indicator that you are still in a wayward mindset, not yet willing to fully acknowledge your choices and own your stuff.

OK, NOW THAT'S OUT OF THE WAY.

You are going to have to understand that you may not get your marriage back. You have forever lost what you've had. Are you willing, with this in mind, to give her everything she needs????

This is the bare bones basic question. Without an answer to this, nobody here can help you.

You said you wanted your marriage, but you have yet to say that you want to help your wife heal. Those are two very different things.

TMT,

If you want help here...no one, not even Dr. H can direct you better right now than TST. He has been down your road and has changed 100%. I would seek out his advice (as well as calling the Harley's) and PAY ATTENTION. This is a man that has EARNED the F for "former." If you listen to him, do everything you can for your wife, grow up and pray...you may just have a small chance at recovering your marriage.

Words from you are meaningless at this point. You will be judged by your actions...and that is how it should be.

MEDC

Isn't that the problem?

You DO want other women...

and it IS heading in the direction of being definitely over.

Words from you are meaningless at this point. You will be judged by your actions...and that is how it should be.

I could not agree more.
I am a BS who's now exh had multiple affairs. You want to know how I feel? I do believe now he also had several EAs before anything turned into a PA. Each time I found out I lost another part of ME. Each time I would go on the computer and see he had found some anonymous woman in a game chat room or something to discuss OUR marriage problems with (or what HE felt was wrong)I died a little more. Then there was the ONS, i was physically ill. After that it was all down hill. There was another with one of my kids school mate's mothers. Then the screwing around he did in Texas at military training where I got the hotel charges on the debit card for. The women he went home with from the local bar. The times he just didn't come home at all. And this last one, where he broke up someone else's marriage! He is still with that ow.

Each time, I lost more of myself. My self esteem was in the toilet by the end. I didn't care about anything anymore. Each time he got caught he promised to behave himself. Each time he did not. It was wayyy too easy for him to cheat! I finally threw him out. And he has the nerve to be mad at me that I did! Every chance I gave, he ruined. It has been 3 years now, and I made the right choice. My life could not be better without him. I deserve better than that and so does your wife. Good Lord, you two are so young and you are doing this already? How can she possibly trust that you will NEVER do this again? I wouldn't to be honest. I have been there done that and have the tshirt.

Actions will speak way louder than words and if I were her, I'd be making you prove those actions from different living quarters. I'd not want you anywhere near me. Like SL said, don't talk, don't justify, nothing. Just do. IF she is smart, she will not take you back for at least 6 months or a year of continued progress on your part. Get into counseling to see why you did this. And to make sure it doesn't happen again. And she will need it too. On her own. Do you see that you have probably just sucked the life right out of her doing this over and over again? I will never understand why people don't just leave a marriage instead of cheat. I would have had a lot more respect for my exh if he had done that. When and IF she does take you back, you will need to be an open book. No more secrets, no more lies. Period. Ever.

Being that it is so early on in the marriage, if I were giving her advice, I'd tell her to cut her losses. From my experience with a serial cheater, I sure wish I had cut mine sooner.

I really don't know if your marriage can be saved or if it should. If you are willing to do whatever it takes for your WIFE than maybe. And if you can, I hope you thank your lucky stars because in my opinion, a serial cheater doesn't deserve being in the marriage.

You asked for input from someone who has been through this with a spouse. There is my 2 cents.

Take it for what it is worth.

mlhb

2ML,

You've had a few days to digest the reactions from other people.

I gave you the cold hard truth. So did the others. Each from our own perspectives.

To sum up the posts so far, you have the following assignments:

1. Call Dr. Harley (or another pro-marriage coach/counselor) and get YOURSELF on track for figuring out what YOU need to do

2. Examine YOUR OWN behavior in the marriage. You need to really focus here and figure out what you have contributed and failed to contribute to this marriage and relationship. Both are important, 2ML. When it comes to supporting a marriage and destroying a marriage, your ability to understand your own strengths and weaknesses within that relationship is important. I'd like to assign you the task of posting here the top five things YOU have done WRONG in this marriage, and the top five things you did right. Let's see what you think, and see if you can give yourself some real insight on that. It should be easy at this point, don't you think? (We shall see.)

3. You need to change your behavior from thinking of yourself and what you want, to thinking of the needs of your wife and child FIRST. The behavior of a true husband and father begins first with "What do my wife and child need/want?", not with "What makes ME happy?". You will find that if you pose this question first to yourself EACH and EVERY time a decision is made, your marriage and life will be stronger and happier. A magical potion, because somehow it will make YOU happy when your family and marriage is strong and happy.

4. You need to figure out why the activity of pursuing women for the purpose of sex is so gratifying for you. I would submit to you that you do not really have true emotional ties to them, and that you should deeply explore that hypothesis within yourself. Then, I would ask you what it is about the pursuit and conquest of a woman that gratifies you or makes you feel somehow strengthened; then take it a step further and find something else in your life that would make you feel truly strong and pursue it instead. This is the tough one, and will take counseling. So get yourself into counseling, 2ML. I think you have a void to fill, and this runs deeper than you have given much thought to.

5. As far as reading goes, I am very glad you are doing this. I'm also glad you are looking at your spiritual side, and renewing your interest in your faith. Go to church. Invite your wife, but don't go as a "show". Go because you need to fill your void and because your search leads you there.

6. Act each and every day as though you are a married man. You ARE a married man. Remember that. NO OTHER WOMEN IN YOUR LIFE.

7. Begin doing the things your wife has asked you to do this whole time. You remember those things - she begged you to do them. She "nagged" you - remember? And you blew her off? Do them. Because they were right and she was right. And because they need to be done.

8. Visit your family, and do it the way your wife has requested you to do it. Give her the money in the way she has asked. Do not argue with her about it, just do it. Be generous, and be proud to support your family.

9. Go to your pastor and ask him how to be a man. Tell him you have forgotten this, or maybe never learned how. I am saying this with all the respect in the world, because you are young and I do believe that too many guys your age have just lost out on some of the things that "men" need to know. The schools and society have wussified things to the point where younger guys can just plain get lost out there. Get lessons, and the pastor will know exactly what you need. Do it. It might sound dumb here in writing, but give some thought to this at least.

10. Stop making excuses. You did what you did because it felt good, and you wanted adventure, sex, fun, and to hang out with other women. That's it. You wanted what you wanted, and when you wanted it, and you didn't want the responsibility of marriage, kids, the wife, that "scene"....but at the same time you did....sort of....I get where you were in your head. You wanted it all, but you really didn't want any of it at the same time. There is no excuse for what you did to your wife. You were selfish. You are still being selfish. Stop. Focus on her, what you did to hurt her, and what you need to do to fix it.

11. Act now. You have to DO something to earn credibility. You can read stuff, post stuff, think stuff, but that won't cut it. She (and we) will begin to see progress when you have made appointments, gone to church, paid the bills without complaining or bragging about it, visited the pastor, visited your wife/family, confessed to your parents without excuses, and started doing the things that need to be done in your life in an active manner. Act now.


Schoolbus

Thanks SchoolBus. I appreciate all your advice.

TMT,
Was that a yes, or a no???

TMT,

I'm not being a smarta$$ here. I am serious.

Are you willing to do whatever it takes to help your BW heal?

If not, please allow her to pursue divorce uncontested and give her everything she needs to move on. That is THE LEAST that you owe her.

If you are willing to do whatever it takes, then say so, so that we can begin to help you understand what your wife needs.

Yes, everyone, I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I know alot of people here think I'm just lying again, but its true. I've heard the steps, and everything. Honestly though, I'm just scared I've run her off into the arms of someone else. If that is the case, its my own fault of course. I just want to try to fix things, its going to be hard enough trying to win her back, but even harder with her with someone else, or hardest divorced.

I find it very hard to continue to write up here, b/c no one can really know what I feel, think or am doing. I can tell you all anything and everything, and with that, it could still mean nothing and I still get "alot IMHOs".

Tst, if you would be willing, I'd like to speak with you privately. I know I need alot of work. And as much as I think Steve is probably worth it, we can no where near afford his services. One conversation is a car payment, and I need someone ongoing, and personal.

I thank everyone that has given positive 2x4 and step-by-step support.

TMT, if you think what you've received here is "tough," you have no clue what attempting to recover your marriage is going to be like.

If your answer to "when the going gets tough" is to run away and hide and try to suck someone into being your personal, unpaid, counselor, that won't work.

If money is the problem, have you thought at all about counseling with a trained counselor who has counseling as one of his ministries through his church? That is often provided at no cost.

Anyway, if you can't avail yourself of all the free resources here on this system and the free advice of others here because it's getting too tough for you, it's not likely that you will be able to recover your marriage.

That "running away" has been the problem all along, hasn't it?

Might that be a "starting point" in affecting real change in the way you approach things, including your marriage?

No, I'm not running from help, I dont want to continue to talk to people who tell me I cant do something. Anything is possible. I just need/ want positive hard nose encouragement. You can call it tough love, but somethings didnt seem as though they were said out of love, but their opinion of how bad a person I am. As far as how hard this road can go, I have the slightest idea, where it will take me, I'm just trying gather tools to be prepared to take it. I just dont want to feel people (who are sincerely here to help me overcome my issues) sticking their leg out to trip along the way.

well, as far as my post to you goes, you asked about bs's who had dealt with a serial cheater. i was one of those and i told you the cold hard truth of what it was like and what i went through. was the reality of that too much for you? because i guarantee what i wrote is what your poor wife is going through.

mlhb

TMT - people here are not going to tell you "can't" do something, with the emphasis on "you." People here are going to tell you that YOU NEED to make permanent and lasting changes in yourself, and that includes your relationship and walk with God.





This is true for God, but not for mankind. There are things that are "beyond your control." And it does seem that "control" is what you are thinking about much more than contrition and humbleness, of leaning on God and what HE knows is best for you and for your wife.

Even with all the changes in yourself that you might make, your wife does NOT have to continue to be married to you. Now, consider this, people here (who don't know you) are reacting to what you have written because they have "seen and heard it" many times before. Having the experience of the realities of infidelity, you can't fool them or expect them to hold your hand and tell you lies such as "it WILL be alright."

What they will tell you is what you NEED to hear IF you want a SHOT at giving your wife a reason to not "throw in the towel" and let you "sink or swim" on your own, by yourself, hoping you DO finally become a new person whose life IS directed by God and not glands.




TMT, people here ARE going to "stick their leg out and trip you along the way." Why? Two reasons. First, some are not themselves far enough along in their own recovery of their own marital devastation to control their anger enough to not "overly empathize" with you or your wife. Second, because those who ARE far enough along in their own recovery recognize all the "bull" that a Wayward Spouse can spout and they WILL "call you on it" every time, usually with little empathy, because the time for your acceptance of lies and falsehoods and destructive choices is OVER....IF you truly do want to change.

TMT, many of us here have been through "false recoveries." We KNOW what is rolling around in your wife's head, and it's not "hatred." It's resignation and indifference. That's the real "opposite" of love, and it's deadly. You have given her NO reason to continue to be married to you other than YOU "want one more shot" with her. As she knows has always been the case with the "old you," it's still about what YOU want, and not about what she wants or needs even if it means you "do without what you want."

Is recovery possible? Yes. My own opinion with respect to your marriage (considering what you wrote previously) is not without a complete focus on surrendering, really surrendering, your lives to God though. The MB principles WILL help, but WHY should she forgive you, let alone choose to try to build a new relationship with you without a truly changed heart?

The issue for you will be who will you grant the right to be sovereign lord in your life and to occupy the "throne," with you as the servant and not as the lord of your life trying to "be God."

So face facts, TMT, you are "out of chances." YOU don't "merit" any more chances from your wife. Only God can GIVE a "bonus chance," but if He does, it WILL BE the final chance, so don't blow it.

Put down your defensiveness and learn. Learn and accept. Accept and put it into practice. Practice until you always view your life and choices from God's perspective.

That is, if you really are interested in the impossible becoming possible.

People's advice and POV (Point of View) are just that, their own. You can't choose who is going to give you advice, what they are going to say, or if you agree. I suggest you turn down the "Sensitiity Button" and listen/contemplate/etc. and make a wise decision based on input from multiple sources.

Another thing you need to realise is that you have done a horrible thing. You are not a horrible person, but the action was. But, no one here on earth is truly good. Today is a new day, turn from your past behavior which was wrong and practice loving people.

SexyMamaBear - the reason I likened TMT's situation to yours is because your husband put you through one too many false recoveries. Thank heaven he changed! But you were definitely ready to move on and there was no going back to the old marriage.

TMT - defensiveness will get in your way of hearing what you need to hear and doing what you need to do. Nobody here has given it to you as tough as you probably know you deserve.

Your first task is to learn empathy. I don't know how that is done for you. Perhaps renting the video "Passion" and recognizing that your actions have made two people suffer. But I do know that at least ten steps to learning empathy have to do with service, without any expectations of reward or praise or relief. Some ideas for those ten steps:

Work some extra hours or take on a night job to cover the cost of Steve Harley. If you think Steve's too expensive, try considering what the divorce is going to cost you - because you're going to take on ALL those costs to make things right for your wife, right???

Don't take her flowers, or candy or tacky gifts at this stage. Instead, clean up the yard of your home. Plant flowers. Do whatever fixit up work needs to be done to get it ready for someone else to live in or her to stay in. Remember - no expectations of outcome.

Read up - every book you can get your hands on about healing the monster inside you that took her love for granted. DO what they tell you to do to heal that monster.

Schedule a polygraph session (that can come out of the wages from your 2nd job too). Let your wife know that she has free license to ask the toughest questions - and have her consult with the tester for how to word those questions so that you can't slide out on a half truth. Balls to the wall - tell the TRUTH.

If you have a house, sign it over to her - show her that your possessions mean nothing to you, as part of restitution.

Do everything you can to change the man who thought it was his right to do whatever he wanted including breaking her heart. Go to the core! Remove from your actions ANYTHING that could be considered manipulative.

Actions! Actions! Actions! That's what TST did that impressed me so much. He didn't ask his wife for another chance. That came from her. But he did show her a changed man - to the core, no going back.

I think I've seen this suggestion tossed around once or twice.

Personally, I think this not a wise thing to do.

Signing over your home is certainly an extraordinary act but I don't think that's what Dr. Harley intends when he speaks of just compensation and extraordinary precautions.

Sell the home perhaps and move to a new area away from the OP. Change jobs or even careers if necessary to remove oneself from the environment that nurtured the affair.

Just compensation isn't a monetary windfall for the BS. It is acts of good faith (extraordinary precautions) by the WS to affair proof the marriage.

jmo