Tabby:

I am four years out and the pain actually got much better at two years. I don't think about the affair that often. I try my best to function normally.

It is possible that healing from an affair is more difficult for the person that strayed. Maybe that is why all gift-giving actions are taken in the context of the affair.

I tend to be happy on my own and I believe I have done a lot of healing. I am generally quite happy with life and have no stress with my wife other than this one. I must tell you that I have my wife on pre-affair video in the 1980s during her birthday and she is not a happy camper. Having very high expectations and then feeling disappointed also occurred before d-day.

I also admit that I am not very good at organizing romantic scenarios. However, I hold hands with my wife if I walk with her anywhere in the planet. I compliment her on a daily basis, and she was always the center of my life. I always come home after work and don’t travel a whole lot so I am not away from her. I have told her for more than 30 years that I adore the concept of going to bed with her every night.

Despite everything she had an affair. In the end only she knows why, but I suspect the cause was intrinsic to her and there was nothing I could do (or any other man) to prevent that. I feel good about myself and have no need to resent my wife. One of the 1st things I learned from JL four years ago was that resentment is poison.

I suspect that my wife thinks that my happiness is a manifestation of not caring from her. OTOH, if I am somber and in pain from the affair then it means I must care for her.

I do resent the constant rejection of my efforts during the times when we celebrate birthdates, Mother’s Day, and the anniversary.

So it is not at all about the gifts. On a very deep level your wife does not feel lovable, and she needs to know that you love her, she needs to FEEL it and it makes her feel lovable when she does.

This is the kind of self-esteem that if we didn't get from loving parents, is very, very difficult to get later in life.

Because the gifts cause such pain for you both, why don't you make an agreement to not give gifts anymore, as everyone has already said.

Myrta, what if the money spent on gifts were donated to a favorite charity of yours?

What if on those special occasions you both, together, chose to go someplace or do something you both really like to do, TOGETHER. NO gifts, just a really great weekend, or activity together. Dance lessons is something I really would like my husband to do with me. That would be more fun than any material gift.

The undivided time you spend together would evoke those romantic, cared about feelings that Myrta wants and give you Stanley, an opportunity to provide them.

I think this is about Myrta's (sorry forgot to look at the spelling for your new name, hope you don't mind "Myrta" )EN of affection, and how she likes to have that need met...It sounds as though she has been pretty specific, though her delivery of the specifics come in the form of angry outburts, which are lovebusters...Obviously not good...

I think it's important to remember that Dr. Harley says that COMPLAINTS in a marriage are GOOD...CRITICISM is what is bad...Complaints let us know if we are meeting the needs of the other in the way that they like them met...THAT is IMPORTANT...

Stanley, I hear you saying that you feel like you will fail because you have failed in the past and the pressure that that creates impedes you...

What if you both were to agree to wipe the slate clean from this point forward...That you Stanley want to be Myrta's greatest source of pleasure and therefore you will put forth giant effort in meeting this affection need in the way that she'd like it met...How about starting to plan NOW for the next occasion? And Myrta, could you agree that if he does this and you are able to see that he put forth effort in planning that you will give him CREDIT for his efforts and not lovebust him if it's not the "perfect" gift? Could you agree that him TRYING to meet that need, is, in and of itself, meeting that need?

I do understand gift giving as affection, as it's a need of mine too, though the wrapping and time is not as important to me-(doesn't mean that Myrta is wrong, just that she and I are different there)...One of the sweetest gifts that Mr. W ever gave me was a book that I had mentioned wanting to read in passing-I didn't even think he'd heard me-I certainly wasn't hinting for him to find it-it was just an off the cuff comment...It was out of print...He went to a used bookstore (he may have gone to a couple of them) and found a beat up and battered copy for me and wrapped it...I was stunned and VERY touched...Hmmmm, I think it's been a while since I've mentioned that...I think I'll make a point of thanking him again...

Mrs. W

Myrta, Squid is very similar to you in this respect. She values how much effort a gift is more than how appropriate, nice or costly it is. It also has to demonstrate that I have a unique and psychic knowledge of her desires too however !

Every gift becomes a trial of whether I love her enough to spend a lot of time doing something I hate, and whether I psychicly know better than she does what she wants.

There are a couple of reasons why that is hard for me Myrta. First amongst them is that I am in NO WAY a gift person. I do not desire gifts, and I am a little embarrassed to receive them in fact. This means perhaps that Squid cannot envisage how difficult meeting her gift-effort requirements are for me. SHE chooses gifts for me and friends with incredible insight, and expends effort and research with all the joy of a kid in a candy store. She cannot comprehend that I am completely different.

However, over the years I have been known to come up with gifts that have surprised and delighted her :

Her first ever car: an original Mini , a set of framed, processed family photos from her own family, training for her own business, right up to a shooting star and a custom-made diamond wedding band from Vegas ten months after d-day.

They were successes !

However...I've been doing this Christmas, anniversary, mothers day and birthday for TWENTY TWO YEARS. I am fresh out of ideas, and have been for a few years now. I am starting to repeat.

Squid DOES sulk a bit, and I think this is incredibly unfair.

Please know Myrta that Stanley may not be being lazy or valuing you low because he buys you an "unimaginative" gift, he may be like me: out of inspiration and finds it alien to do this anyway.

Just my experience.

Mrs W:

You once said that your favorite EN was admiration. I believe all of us like that EN, but it is probably a risk factor for infidelity for both men and women.

You are a remorseful FWW and perhaps you can answer this question:

Pre-affair Myrta probably had a baseline need for affection and admiration that was relatively high. Therefore, this lead to the affair.

Once the affair is over this EN is still there-----no doubt.

It is possible that this EN is now much greater?

To the point that it becomes the center of one‘s existence?

Can this EN caused anxiety and anger if not met properly?


I believe the great need for admiration is rooted in the need to obtain external validation and I can see how this can become much more acute following d-day and recovery.


I read somewhere that some FWS have a hell of a time in recovery because they feel guilty at all times and cannot put the affair behind as easily as the BS.

On top of that I have five kids that do not know about the affair and they constantly preach against infidelity at dinnertime. Sometimes they put down infidelity so much that I wonder if they suspect something. It must be terrible for Myrta to sit there and hear her daughters say nasty things about wayward spouses.

I think that Myrta is struggling with this.

Over the last couple of week Myrta asked me if I would get married to her knowing what I know now. In other words would anyone get married to a spouse that is surely to cheat during the marriage? These are difficult issues and I can see the fact that she may have a struggle.

Bob:

I am amazed about how you and I think alike regarding the issue of gifts.

It seems the world is divided among those that crave gifts and those that do not want them.

In my case I do not like others to buy me dinner. If we go out with another couple I rather pay. I certainly see no glory in having the other couple pay for the bill. To me that is highly embarrassing.

My parents were like me. They never wanted anything material from my part. OTOH, Myrta’s mom craves monetary gifts at her advanced age of 89. And she will always be disappointed no matter how large the sum of cash she receives.


Regarding ideas:

Been there done that. I have been buying gifts for a lifetime and run out of ideas.

Myrta also runs out of ideas. In the last few years I have received enough golf shirts to last for an eternity. She also gives me golf shoes before my current ones wear out. So I have four pairs of golf shoes. And that is nice because I can rotate them.

I have a friend that does not do gifts anymore with his wife.

OTOH, I am happy with anything. Since I always expect nothing anything I get is glorious.

In my case it is CD compilations with "Dad-rock" on like Boston, Blue Oyster Cult and Queen on !

I actually DON'T fear the reaper any more !

I DO appreciate the thought, and I am not ungrateful but ...well...ya know.

Squid actually bought me pet mice for one birthday... she was SO EXCITED by this gift that she was certain I would adore....erm..

Yes Stanley I did tell you that admiration was a top need of mine...It still is, but you know what, it's no longer an unhealthy need of mine...

I'm not sure that I can explain that as well as I'd like to, but I'll try...I am more comfortable being ME is the crux of it...Mr. W's satisfaction/admiration of me is enough now...I am enough now...Some of this I owe to MelodyLane, who told me over and over that the only opinion that truly mattered was the one of "the lady in the mirror"...Much of it I owe to Mr. W who has always told me that I was beautiful, smart, funny etc...MB helped me to start believing him...to understand how disrespectful that it was not to (Thanks JL)...The biggest reason for me though is God...Mr. W and I started going to an incredible church...We've both become so much closer in our walk with God-hard to put into words really...A particular message really hit home for me one Sunday morning...The pastor was quoting the scripture that says that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made"...He talked about all the stuff we do to try and make ourselves more appealing...It just hit me, "I am enough, because God says that I am"...That is all the validation that I need-it had always been there, I just didn't get it...It was profound for me...I cried like a baby during the entire message...I felt like the pastor was speaking to ME...

So now admiration is a healthy need for me...I realize to get it that I must do admirable things...to get it any other way, isn't true admiration, but false ego stroking...I don't want that...that isn't real...

And yanno, I'd think Myrta would want your kids to have that opinion of adultery...I know that we sure teach our dd8 what a horrible thing it is, and she doesn't yet know of my affair...she was only 5 when it happened and it didn't get to a place where she had to be told (long distance rather short lived affair)...We do plan on telling her someday when she is older in hopes that it will show her how to avoid it and teach her how when you do make horrible choices in life what you must do to fix them...

I can imagine the guilt would eat at Myrta and I'm surprised that she doesn't wish to share with them...That would be a very hard place to be...

Mrs. W

And did this work out for him (his marriage)?

If gifts caused all the pain they seem to cause to you two, I can't understand why you haven't done away with them either.

Did you see my post with my idea of spending time together instead of gifts, Stanley and Myrta?

I don't attach being loved to recieving gifts either, so even reading Mrs. W say it is a need of hers, is still hard for me to understand as well.

We teach our children the joy of gift giving. The joy, I thought, was supposed to be in the giving, not the getting.

This is hard for me to understand, not that I have to understand it. (Mrs. W. and Myrta, no offense to you)

I didn't relate very well to "The Five Love Languages" either though, and a lot of people had an eye opening relevation with that book.

I look forward to Mrs. W's respons to this, but I don't believe that this or any EN is a greater risk factor to lead to an affair. It may require more effort to meet, and certainly one can receive admiration from a total stranger without leading to an affair. In some circumstances, flattering comments are expected out of good manners for crying out loud!

ENs not being met are only part of why someone has an affair. There is also a lack of boundaries, opportunity and other issues (addictiveness etc.). While it's admirable that you strive so hard to meet your W's ENs (see - admiration from a total stranger), it's up to her to do the rest (set boundaries etc). Could her self esteem issues be threatening her boundaries?

Again, we have ENs are met all over the place outside the M including among friends, work, career, family - all the time. Not SF, and probably very little affection (perhaps among family and close friends but certainly nothing that resembles marriage). But all kinds of others including admiration.

One could pick a different EN, say conversation. If WS isn't getting this need met at home (BS just sits and watches football all night, doesn't want to talk), this doesn't justify an affair. Why can't WS call up one of his/her friends and chat? If someone at the office starts filling this need, does that mean he/she should jump in the sack with him? Come on! How many enjoyable conversations have you had at coffe break before? Unless you hate your job, probably tons and NONE of them even remotely suggested the possibility of an affair. That is, if you have your own personal boundaries.

I'm definitely not suggesting to stop trying to meet these ENs or even that they are easy ones to meet. But I also don't think just because it's one particular need it makes a WS any more at risk. They are at risk because they allowed themselves to be at risk, plain and simple.

Bob:

Some guys get the same old tie every six months and never complain.

I have another one that makes me think Myrta appreciates the effort more than the actual gift:

I have given her stuff that causes her to be nauseated.

I once gave her a blouse that she hated with all her soul. The store was next to my office and I got the blouse on my way home. She assumed I walked into the store and purchased the 1st thing I saw and was out of there is two minutes.

For the next six months that blouse became Myrta's favorite and she used it MANY times. To the point that it became a joke and I would remind Myrta all the time how much she hated my gift. Nevertheless she wore down that blouse. But, there is more, At the onset one of her complaints was that the blouse was not her style. Now, two years later she has a closet of blouses in that style---------all purchased by her.

I must have done something right!

My priest could talk about that till the cows come home and I would not relate.

Interestingly, I used to think that anyone that achieved success of any kind would immediately get rid of that symptom “I am not good enough”. However, I know some low wage gardeners that have better esteem than Wall Street lawyers.

Thanks for your insight!

BTW, this sensation is very common and nothing to feel bad about. It is nothing more than an exaggeration of normal human behavior.

I never complain ! I lay down strong hints that I don't want a certain advertised CD compilation for Father's day for example, but it doesn't make any difference.

I receive it with thanks and hugs and a little bit of hidden embarrassment every time !.

MarEle67 (Myrta),

It is good to hear from you again. If you don't mind I have a few questions. Hopefully they will help you.

You said
Ok, you liked it. Did he hear/see/feel that you liked it? Did you show him you liked it? How? Trust me I have a purpose in these questions.


So he gives you a gift you like, but he doesn't take the trouble to wrap it or include a card. You then say "you deserve a bit more than a gift that he had in a gym bag unwrapped."

So his lack of a card, or gift wrapping the gift negated the power or the sentiment behind the gift? Is that what you are saying? I am guessing that a well chosen card might have had more impact with you, than the gift itself am I right?


Oh NONSENSE, quit the pity party. But let me ask you this. Do you feel so uncertain of your marriage that you need your H to reassure you that he in fact loves you? Are you able to forgive yourself for your A? If not why not? What would make you feel more confidence in yourself and more confidence in your H?


Sorry it is not a "dumb problem". I see it as a serious problem, but it is not a problem about gifts. It is a problem of forgiveness, a problem of uncertainty, a problem of communications, a problem of love languages. Perhaps this whole thing is the "final" problem you two need to overcome, I am hoping it is true.


Oh Myrta, I KNOW he finds you attractive. That is quite clear from his posts here over the years. My guess is the problem is that he feels you may not find HIM desirable and choose another man. My guess he worries about his gifts because he doesn't think he is conveying to you the love he feels...and he is right. He is not. You don't receive these gifts as tokens of his love for you. The issue is why?

MarEle67, reading this thread and your post it seems to me, that the issue is you are both sort of insecure at this point. Perhaps you have always had a deep need for love shown a certain way. Perhaps the card and a careful wrapping of the present is just as if not more important that the gift itself. Perhaps, your H is misreading your body language. Perhaps, you need something from him and think that gifts will provide it, when in fact it is something else altogether.

Perhaps he needs to spend more time wrapping and selecting the card with the enclosed sentiments than the gift itself.

I don't know the answer. I wonder if either of you do. If you know what doesn't work, you need to let him know. If he is trying to show you love and missing the mark, he has to do some work to figure this out.

How to do it?? That one is easy. Both of you lay down the defenses, look inside yourselves and ask: what is it that makes me feel loved by my spouse? What do I need to address my uncertainties and fear? Where am I week and need help? Then talk to one another, as lovers, as you are meant to be...one. And sort out what needs to be done to put a smile on both of your faces, and comfort in your heart.

My guess the "gifts" are manifestations of other issues. If that is true neither of you will obtain the satisfaction from giving or receiving that you should. It is again balancing the "giver and the taker" in each of us.

I do hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

This reminds me.

My grandfather was an avid golfer (as am I now, years later) and we gave him golf balls for years and years. We didn't know any better, and just got whatever was on sale. Its funny to think about, because now that I play I realize that there is a BIG difference between golf balls, and its something you really should KNOW what you're doing if you're going to give them as a gift and have them truly be appreciated. We didn't know that then.

He has since fallen in to poor health and has not played golf in several years. I was in his basement getting something and I looked in an out of the way closet. There was a stack of brand new golf balls in thier boxes about five feet tall! Probably 25, 30 dozen! I asked him about it and he said he always found more balls than he lost, and the ones he found were better than the new ones we bought! But he never complained, always smiled and said 'thank you' and we assumed he was running out to put them new balls in his bag as soon as he could!

Anyhow, this thread made me think of that!

Because you already know that you are enough Stanley? Is that why? That message by our pastor certainly didn't touch Mr. W in the same way that it did me, so I get that...He has always known that he was enough...Never questioned it...That wasn't his struggle here...I have always been amazed by his self-confidence...All his siblings are like that...I've quizzed my inlaws on what they did to insure this in their children even...It baffled me...

For me, what I've come to realize is that I'd long placed too much emphasis on my looks...my clothing...my jewelry...EVERYTHING I based on a WORLDVIEW rather than a KINGDOMVIEW...For me, this was BIG...Not that my struggles with this are all over...I will still stuggle I suspect from time to time...But now, I know where to turn to ground myself...Some of this is age perhaps...with age comes wisdom and wisdom comes from God...interesting to me...

I don't think I'm alone in this struggle...Even though I felt like the pastor was talking to ME, I'm not so self-centered as to believe that!

Mrs. W

Ok, you liked it. Did he hear/see/feel that you liked it? Did you show him you liked it? How? Trust me I have a purpose in these questions." quote




Hello again....

Yes, I did tell him that I liked it. Remember I told him the day before EXACTLY what I wanted it. I put it on inmediatly.

So his lack of a card, or gift wrapping the gift negated the power or the sentiment behind the gift? Is that what you are saying? I am guessing that a well chosen card might have had more impact with you, than the gift itself am I right?"



I think so...I think it is rather important that a card is included with a gift, especially if that gift is giving "just like that" unwrapped, from a gym bag.

I have told him so many times Exactly what I like, he NEVER listens to my likes or dislikes.






Oh NONSENSE, quit the pity party. But let me ask you this. Do you feel so uncertain of your marriage that you need your H to reassure you that he in fact loves you? Are you able to forgive yourself for your A? If not why not? What would make you feel more confidence in yourself and more confidence in your H?"




I do feel uncertain of my marriage!!! I need my husband to show me that he still LIKES me. I feel that he dislikes me and thats why he makes no effort to please me in such little requests.

It is not hard at all to please me JL. I have never been a Diva. Very simple things make me happy.

For example...shortly after DD....my husband ordered online a big box of Chiclets gum, because I love them. That was so cute and romantic.

Another time, I was in my country and I received unexpectly some flowers from FTD. Those things I like.

35 years married, and all I get is a bracelet that I chose online the day before, NOT ROMANTIC OR SPECIAL.




Like I said before, it was my idea to go away for the holiday weekend. I wanted him to play golf in a beautiful resort as my gift to him. Plus I gave him like ten gifts that he liked and needed . I thought carefully what I thought he would like.

When we were going to dinner to "celebrate" our anniversary. He wanted to go in the first restaurant he saw, because there was "no line, or crowd" to go in. I had suggested that we stay in our room and order room service. We have Never done that and I thought it would be romantic and neat. He discarded the idea ASAP.

We went to another restaurant, it was good, we waited over an hour to go in. But the food was good. And the ambiance was good too.




My guess the "gifts" are manifestations of other issues. If that is true neither of you will obtain the satisfaction from giving or receiving that you should. It is again balancing the "giver and the taker" in each of us."



Yes, I do think that the gifts are manifestations of other issues. I don't deserve any special treatment and that's why there is NO effort from him to me in those special occasions.

An anniversary is a very special time in a marriage.. But mine in the lasts years especially are not special at all.

Stanley had said before, that he is satisfied with anything I give him, but he lacked to mention that 98% of the things I give him he wants, or likes, because I know his likes and dislikes. I want him to be happy and to see that I care and think of him.

I generally like all presents I get. And if I get nothing I am also happy. In fact I often tell my wife not to get me anything on special occasions.

From the sample in this thread it seems the world is divided in two camps:

Those that put a lot of weight on gifts and those those are neutral or embarrassed by gifts.

Nevertheless, I will admit that getting the right gift at the right time is flattering to anyone.

The issue is that I see myself in handcuffs and feel like I am walking on eggshells when I have to do something for a special occasion.


More later

"Little ways" in your opinion Mytra. Working on my house is a little thing to Squid too because she loves to do it so much she cannot comprehend my loathing of it.

Its a big deal for some folks who are not gift-centred to meet that "little way" requirement of yours.

Many females like special care and attention to details.

I believe most philandering men know this by instinct. Your typical OM is always very smooth and knows how to play this game. Generally that does not translate into being a person of character and integrity.

For example:

Myrta’s OM developed a loving relationship with Myrta’s mother using that very technique. He was Mr. Charming and offered to take her to dinner as well as providing transportation to the doctor, etc. Soon after, the entire family was head over heels for the OM, including Myrta’s brother. Myrta’s mother and all her siblings are highly susceptible to flattery. OTOH, Myrta’s father could smell a rat a mile away and knew better.

What I am trying to say is that a person that seems too perfect in trying to please others and to make them feel special often has a hidden agenda. These are the guys that seem perfect during courting and then become the husband from hell during marriage.

I believe most sane women would rather take a steady man with a good heart and slightly less charm as a life long partner.